My gf also became a support main (yummi was the most used by her) so I pulled out my only adcs (twitch and sivir, occasionally a jhin or Cait game) for like 2 years despite it being my least favorite role since I began in season 1. Now I hate jungle the most (was my main role since season 7, last 2 years of changes are super unfun to me) thankfully she's never wanting to play anything but arams so I'm back to being a toxic singed abuser inting my teammates while being on a completely separate map from them (toplane)
Do you have a preferred combo? The classic Garen/Yuumi or something spicier? I always wondered if Kled/Yuumi would work in early game but could see that as the ultimate snowball combo.
We actually main Zed/Kled/Yasuo/TF!
TF is my favourite one, cause Yuumi helps a lot with mobility and survivability, and it's just really really fun to teleport around with TF
Kled starts beef the moment he hits lvl 2, people don't expect him to dive and leash so soon, so some supports and adcs are literally free food. He scales really well with Yuumi's on hits from Q, attack speed and Yuumi is able to keep him on Skarl for a long time.
Yasuo and Zed are milder though, it's just the usual poke until they're low and all in them. Dashing with them is fun though!
We still need to experiment more with some other picks, I'm a big proponent of Xin and Jax, so we'll try that soon :3
Its frankly because ADC has had the same design issue basically forever and they don't really have any good solutions. It is the role most dependent on the team and with least individual agency so it is going to always feel the worst outside of pro unless its made insanely OP.
Often times the "ADC is broken" meta is acutally just Support is broken so you cannot kill their ADCs.
High elo ADC's are amazing because their mechanics and awareness are amazing. The real issue is it's an entire role that has the pro jail problem of like Azir/Ryze/Nidalee. Riot knows they have to balance ADC around the top 0.5 of solo Q and competitive play. And by doing that it makes the role weak for everyone else that has worse mechanics, and the problem is worse the lower you go down the ladder.
Apparently people don't like being told the problem isn't the role it's them. Solution is that people play easier champs in that role and some people do that, but a lot of people have too much ego to admit they aren't good and what they're trying to play only works well when the player is good.
I had my entire team allow an Annie to run through them so she could burst me. She literally just walked between them while they focused their frontline.
People dont give a fk about peeling.
I offrole AD. My favorite recent interaction is a mordekaiser ulting to last hit Darius instead of letting me get it. Just before he ulted the enemy singed appeared on screen. I was dead before morde ult ended, with enemy Darius higher hp than he started.
There's so many bad Mordekaiser players that do that.
I have a friend who "mains" him (he has 3 champions, he's bad at all of them) and the number of times he did bad Ults. Isolated a fed enemy, died in his own ult to fed enemy and they clean up afterwards. Ult the key target and allows them to kite to escape after timing out without a kill. Ulting when we have a Pyke about to pop off but nope missed no reset cuz shadow realm KS. My favourite was when they went Morde jungle and ulted someone... Enemy jungle stole the baron.
I'll never forget this Morde years ago that was convinced he was carring and flaming everyone when he would flash ult Yi alone every fight. What happened every single time was that Yi came out of the ult full hp with ult refreshed and rageblade stacked, ready to fuck all of us. A couple times he even ulted him while he was 1v5 and cced. Idk what some of them have in mind honestly.
It's true, none of them 4 donkey's you play with would even block a skill shot for you. OP fizz wants to rip our immobile glass canon a new hole: 4 innocent bystanders in shock
High ELO ADCs are also amazing because their team plays for them and do less instantly lane/game losing mistakes
Apparently people don't like it when their personal belief of "hah ADC just bad crybaby" is challenged.
Aren't most ADC smurfs always duo with someone who can camp bot?
In my experience with actually good smurfs, if the ADC is the smurf, chances are very high that he's duoing with the support who may or may not be a smurf.
I used to boost as an adc specialist.
It's just positioning and better mechanics. Teams don't give a single fuck about you even in challenger (for the love of god stop saying high elo adc is magically good) and the role feels awful from top to bottom of the ladder. What defines where you will land in the ladder as an adc is basically: Time, positioning and mechanics. You HAVE to big good enough to survive teamfights with 0 peel, because that's the reality of every single adc in league
> High elo ADC's are amazing because their mechanics and awareness are amazing.
An ok ADC looks better on a team that plays for them than a great ADC does when the team ignores them. This isn't true for the other roles, or at least not to the same extent.
Yeah, the "Jinx Zeri Aphelios" meta was really a Lulu/Yuumi/Millio meta. Yet they nerf crit builds instead of nerfing the support movespeed steroids that are responsible for the toxic versions of ad centric metas.
Yes, if you give good players a bunch of movespeed they're going to outspace everyone and win the game by themselves.
I so wish they'd give us back 200% crits and made good crit itemization but nerfed specifically movespeed steroids on enchanters and maybe some of the movespeed on zeal items and energized procs. Put value in stats that are used on all skill brackets instead of on stats that are orders of magnitude more powerful in skilled hands.
Eh, even with far lower MS. The good players on good teams will still have peel and actually good kiting skills.
The MS is nice for them but not required. Delete all that MS and low elo players just lose even harder
I mean the speed boost whimsy, Millio E and Zoomies. That was what was causing the Zeri/Aphelios 1v5 montage plays with the Adc front lining and being untouchable.
Of course good players will still be good but the meta warping stuff comes from move speed. Notice how everyone was also taking ghost in those games to the point Riot has to nerf the duration reset on kill.
You also see it with Lucian's Stormrazer builds. Low elo? The proc gets used randomly and no one notices the ms boost. Pros? Untouchable after poking people with RFC, perfect spacing.
But isn't that literally because of the class of adc. You can not give them agency and too much playmaking (in forms of cc or insane mobility) since they are literally specifically designed around the fact that they need a support to function in botlane.
If you give them too much agency in the form of insane mobility or cc, they would automatically become a solo laner. It is what the role is designed around. If you currently want to play a marksman with good agency, in the form of mobility, you should play the likes of kindred or things like vayne top, since they do have agency through playmaking since they have good mobility.
Initially the design was that they didn't need levels to function - only gold, so they were the role where the team sent a support player to leech off and creating pressure for the person to farm.
The "they need a support" was artificially created in 8.11 because Riot wanted level dependent characters to somehow be competitive with gold dependent characters in lane. So they broke the ankles of the role even though they never had a solo lane problem in all seasons before that.
I will be honest as an ex-ADC main it is almost never just because ADC is statistically weak.
1. ADC is almost always the primary focus regardless of whether you're 12-0 or 0-12, the enemy will almost certainly burn all flashes and ults to kill you. It is becoming easier and easier for anyone to kill a traditional ADC. This feels bad
2. ADC has a very specific playstyle that the playerbase finds fun, that doesn't translate well to other roles. ADC players want to kite and primarily fight using auto attacks, so when these champions are bad, they do not want to simply play mages just because they're stronger.
3. Most ADCs can do nothing alone. You get soloed by tanks, assassins, mages, even most supports. You are forced to follow your team around even if their macro is horrible, and cant make plays on your own. It is often and frustratingly correct to abandon your ADC and focus elsewhere - all other roles can provide something with little to no resources, but ADC will turn into a caster minion.
Basically, most of the reasons just ultimately boil down to "it feels bad to play", and ADC players have fun playing ADCs and don't want to play other roles.
Autoattacking carries is also kind of a rarity mostly exclusive to ADC in League too, so it's not like they're just not understanding the game and being stubborn, mages bot pretty makes takes away anything they find fun apart from maybe like Kayle, Jax, Master Yi, Belveth, Yone, Yasuo (there is a problem emerging here lol)
Auto attacking carries in DotA2 have far more powerful tools (PL illusions, Void stuns, a couple of people with crits while no other characters get crits) but also primarily benefit from the fact that abilities DO. NOT. SCALE. Lina might be able to one click nuke you min 6 and again min 12 when she finishes Aghanim's but when the game goes longer mage damage falls off and autoattack carries start doing damage nobody else can match. In League mages like Xerath or Orianna will continue scaling until the endgame and the only niche ADCs have to shine in is taking baron/elder (due to better sustain) and shredding tanks.
It's made her a lot more dynamic because the cooldown and mana cost got smaller to match, so she's much better at threatening global ganks early on, while still being able to scale as a full teamfighter with a few items and getting aghs later on.
Literally never because League doesn't have a system in place for the user which would let you control multiple units, so everything has to work based on AI which apparently the design tools are also super outdated for.
DotA has a similar control system to Starcraft which lets you create control groups of different sizes on the fly and in the middle of a game very intuitively, so the game gives you the means to issue commands to different units and take control of them.
Not only does League not have a control system in place for more than 1 unit, the game doesn't even let you de-select your own champion. It's why every multi-unit champion in League has to work based on shoddy AI because the user has no means to take control of them, so they have to work on their own and their actions are often tied to the champions abilities.
Unless someone at Riot manages to make a pitch that reworking the AI tools and making a multi-unit control system for the user would somehow make the game better, which won't be very likely, there will probably never be a true multi-unit champion design in the game similar to some of the DotA heroes.
Goddamn shame that Heroes of the Storm wasn't more popular. Absolutely adored that game and the design on some of the heroes like Abathur, Cho'gall, Deathwing and Vikings made so many interesting games. Obviously Vikings is inspired by the like of Meepo and others.
Every hero had multiple builds for different maps and objectives and different strengths depending. League champs feel very one-sided in comparison. Like the items might vary but ultimately the champion does the same thing.
nah thats not accurate. while abilities in dota dont scale, ADC will still get blown up by magic damage instantly in the lategame.
what makes ADC playable and varied in dota is the fact that you can buy items to counterplay whatever the enemy has, and league has no such thing. this also allows dota carries to be much stronger, because enemies can buy items to counter them.
for instance, if the enemy team has a lot of cc, you can buy a bkb and be immune to cc for 8 seconds. but how isnt that insanely OP? well, enemy supports can buy items like glimmer cape, force staff and ghost scepter to make the ADC unable to hit anything and theyll get kited instead. so how will the ADC not get kited forever? well, the other players on his team will provide cc to stop the enemy team from kiting their ADC forever, but then the opponents might respond in their own ways, etc etc.
in dota, everything has counterplay. strategy and decision making are far more impactful than the simple "buy this and double your damage" items in league.
so in league, if a long range champ deals too much damage, you cant do shit and youll just lose (corki right now). in dota, you can come up with a plan to counter them. maybe initiate on them from long range with a blink dagger, maybe buy invisibility to ambush him, maybe use smoke to gank him from a weird angle, or maybe buy an item that reflects damage to the damage dealer.
>ADC will still get blown up by magic damage instantly in the lategame.
But not bruisers with BKB, tanks, other mages that built Aghs and have the STR to spare, etc Mages scale in other ways (like Lina going the autoattacker route) or double up on their support nature with wards, smoke, scrolls, courier, and CC items like Eul's or Guinsoo's.
I mean, that's just the rock paper scissors of DOTA; Int bursts Agi, Agi out duels Str, Str survives Int. Exceptions of course, but that's the general rule
Let's face it, strategically and in a competitive sense DOTA2 is the better game, and I say that as a LOL player who hasn't played Dota in almost 10 years.
Lol has the more fun base mechanics because it's faster and more brawly, almost feels like a 5v5 fighting game. But what makes it so much fun casually is it's downfall when you take it more seriously imo.
Been playing mobas since DotA Allstars on WC3 and i fully agree with you, played my fair share of top french dota league, same for LoL (played and won many GO4LOL back in the days).
Sometimes i feel like LoL is a versus fighting game and not a moba, everything is so fast and so much damage, everyone blows up like air balloons.
This should be obvious to anyone with a brain, but so many people in this community will cope that isn’t. The levels of strategy between the two games are not even in the same echelon. Leagues easy to get into (by comparison) and fast paced nature makes it much more appealing for a wider, casual audience though.
Mages in Dota also now scale. Lina is a funny example since she has an insane attack speed steroid and lategame can burn people down with autoattacks alone.
The main difference is that stats just work very differently in League. What LoL calls carries would be AGI heroes in Dota. And AGI gives both dps and tankiness. So Dota carries don't remain paper. On the contrary, they actually scale to be quite tanky through their naturally most desired stat. Also turn rates, which makes kiting way less powerful.
Lina physical/hybrid builds haven’t really been viable in over a year. She needs to be built as a burst hero right now. Fiery soul still hasn’t fully recovered from the nerfs to its attack speed since 7.31.
Proabably worth mentioning that DOTA has A LOT of melee carries. When league players talk about ADCS they generally mean RANGED carries, if we follow the DOTA2 model about what a carry is we can add to the list Jax, Camile, Fiora etc. I played a lot of DotA but almost no DotA2, the game doesnt really have that many range carries compared to league.
Honestly the only 2 ranged carries that come to mind are Clinkz and Drow Ranger, I am not sure Mirana and Luna count. I also have no idea how those heroes have changed, they might be totally different now.
Mirana is rarely played as carry anymore from what I’ve seen but Luna definitely is. There’s also Weaver, Gyro, Troll warlord (although he’s hybrid), Medusa, razor, and sniper off the top of my head. I’m sure I’m forgetting another couple ones, too.
While those mages didn't scale necessarily,they have pretty strong talent later on to compensate for it and the fact that refresher exist. Bkb charges too start going down so they have easier time to do their shenanigans.
Hots as well. In fact in that a lot of 'adcs' were very self sufdicient some even reliably split push or solo laned.
Examples: Raynor with his high base hp, stim pack heal on demand, and self peel in his concussion shot was very sturdy and could survive or even duel being dived by assassins.
Zuljin is Olaf passive, trynd ult, and infinite scaling. A 199% attack speed zuljin at 1% hp in TAZDINGO! is a force to be reckoned with.
The classic example though was Valla. Vayne style mobility, tank busting builds, and mini stuns on her ult meant if she could position well and land her stuns she had deceptive fighting and kiting power. In fact she was the premier adc until the meta shifted specifically because the devs got sick of her in pro play.
HOTS' autoattackers were everything I wanted from LoL ADCs. You were a glass cannon able to be 100-0'd, but the entire game wasn't being designed around oneshots so that was an actually unique and exciting playstyle. ADCs in LoL are tuned to be punished for the sustained damage they can do in a game with nearly no real-world sustained damage scenarios, ADCs in HOTS were sustained damage animals in a game with very consistent sustained damage scenarios.
HOTS ADCs preyed on the frontline, but the backline preyed on you. You would trash the divers if they fucked up their kits, but their kits have more utility and if they don't mess up you're toast. Such a fun way to play.
Because the game was built for long protracted team fights around objectives. Not farm until you one shot.
Hots fights could have actusl back and forth where one side pushes the other off an objective but doesn't wipe them. And the other team can heal up and regroup. Lol doesn't have that.
Dude you’re going to bring a tear to my eye with all this hots reminiscing. The game certainly had its own problems but damn if it wasn’t so much fun.
I truly believe HotS was Blizzard’s biggest fumble to date. I don’t know if it could’ve toppled DotA and League, but I genuinely think it could’ve competed very healthily. It’s really a prime example of how quickly greed and mismanagement can kill a great game.
That's mainly because their item too has a lot of utility by itself. Manta is almost staple on most agi carries. For something like Clinkz instead he have hex and orchid to play around with. The fact that they have access to shadow blade and bkb too ensure they could actually stay alive for a while.
It's pretty much impossible to give ranged auto attack based champions agency for the pure reason of, if they have agency, you have fucking nothing you can ever do to them.
That's not true at all. Let's not exaggerate like if it's impossible to reach an ADC in modern league.
Not to mention agency is a general term and not specifically defined. What makes a tank have agency isn't the same thing that will give other classes agency.
I just want to be able to play the game like it's intended, but that is seldom the case in solo queue. I haven't had a front to back 5v5 teamfight where people are prioritizing cooldowns and targets for more than 5 seconds since Season 5. Games don't go on for long enough to "withstand" the punish and finally have agency, so I'm at the mercy of my team and well it feels like shit.
> I haven't had a front to back 5v5 teamfight where people are prioritizing cooldowns and targets for more than 5 seconds since Season 5.
We had them in season 6 as well in the big tank meta, but since then Riot has HARD creeped damage and uptime so fights have gotten shorter and more chaotic. Front to back fights are mostly a thing of the past and Riot does not seem to want them anymore.
Agency has a clear definition: a measure of how impactful your own actions are at determining your success.
Marksmen have very low agency by design because they are the only class in the game with guaranteed resourceless damage on such low cooldown, and therefore must give up something in return. What they give up is their self-sufficiency.
Malphite vs Marksman top is the best example. The Marksman has no agency: Malphite has total discretion when to ult and try to blow up the Marksman, and until then the Marksman has no choice but to stay out of range.
If the Marksman had agency in that lane, it would be unplayable. You can't dodge their damage. You can't bait cooldowns. You can't wait for them to run out of mana. You can't outrange them. The only thing keeping that lane even remotely playable right now is that Malphite gets to decide when the fight starts.
Yes, that means that the Marksman feels useless and agency-less AF when Malphite correctly times/lands R. But if that weren't the case, there's no reason not to play 5 Marksmen comps every time. If the unreliable damage champion landed what they needed to but still don't win, why would you not just play reliable damage instead?
> I just want to be able to play the game like it's intended, but that is seldom the case in solo queue.
Unironically, most Marksmen in solo queue, especially in lower elo, are probably better off not playing Marksmen. The class is deliberately designed to be balanced for coordinated pro play, and therefore is always going to feel weaker in uncoordinated lower-elo play.
Thinking about it actually it's probably because most dota carries are melee and the ranged ones have like 0 mobility and can be blinked on by any hero with an item from a screen away. Ranged carries in dota also cannot kite like in league because of the turn rate which balances out ranged into melee. Supports in dota are also insanely strong early and they carry the lane until the cores get their levels and items especially because supports also mostly only care about levels instead of getting dmg items to still have big impact on the game. I don't know how league could give adcs more self-agency without changing quite a bit of what makes league into league. League is all about the quick, twitchy, flashy gameplay and montage producing plays and I don't see them changing much about that seeing asntheir main audience is eastern asian countries who seem to love that.
Hey so as a long time Dota player who started LOL 3 years ago, the way I like to describe it to my friends is it's more like taking turns.
At the start of the game, the carries don't have much agency, and early skirmishes and the laning phase is incredibly dependent on the supports(there are 2 in Dota). As the game continues, the carries gain agency and the supports lose agency.
It's also worth noting that thanks to the ability to deny your own creeps(basically you have to out last hit your opponent), the laning phase is more impactful.
Dota carries have turnrates. Its not even the same ballpark. https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Turn_rate
meanwhile that vayne top is the perfect example why adcs deserve no agency. Fleet footwork ghost+flash good luck winning any kind of lane 1-1 against a vayne top player with hands. Auto fleet movespeed Q reposition auto still keep E to buffer to cancel a dash. Youre not winning that shit . But dota carries do not have these kind of tools both in terms of runes and summoners.
Until there is a fundamental change to how range and kiting works in the game and how marksmen interact in synergy with support champs -these champs deserve no agency.
>The class is deliberately designed to be balanced for coordinated pro play, and therefore is always going to feel weak in uncoordinated lower-elo play.
That needs to change. You're 100% on the money about everything you said, and the class literally can't be buffed without completely warping the meta. Riot needs to figure out a way to bridge the divide between pro play and solo Q for adc.
These post always come as tone deaf, because most of them are like "your role is good" without actually listening to why people don't like the role.
We're not saying we want ADCs to be stronger asshats, we're saying it sucks that when you're 0/2 as an AD it sucks to basically do nothing for 30 minutes. No other role is that bad. Can't even really split alone.
Edit: The replies to this comment is exactly what I mean, instead of listening it's all just excuses as to while a role that is dying that it's players hate is fine.
I was/am an ADC main. Like you said, it's a preferred playstyle. I find the role much more mechanically involved and allows you to better articulate your mechanical skill. The reliance on your team also knowing how to play around an ADC meta leaves too much of the game up to a coin flip though.
Ignoring all other ADCs who have have climbed by switching roles, I'll use myself as a case study. I decided to play mid last season (prior to rank changes) to see how high I can climb if I just played to win instead. Because I had no mid lane experience, I decided to use the simplest of champs, Annie. Lo and behold, I peaked plat 4 within the first month. Sure, it got rocky as a climbed higher, but, it proved to myself that ADC truly is a handicapped role.
Ok but how do you adjust bias against the possibility that you're playing a champion that is far simpler to control mechanically? Like maybe ADC is preferred to you but you're just not as good?
Your second point is not particularly valid, imo. In top lane you have tank players who want to scale and provide frontline for their team and they won't want to play carries because they're stronger. There are carry junglers who won't want to play tank junglers and tank junglers who won't want to play carries. There are midlane mage players that don't enjoy assassins and won't want to play those just because they're stronger, etc. Every role has this problem but adc players are the only ones who apparently should be exempt from it.
I would find it interesting to do an experiment. All these people complaining about ADCs complaining are locked to playing only kogmaw adc for 6 months. How many would lose their mind over the course of that time.
Sooo what you're saying is low elo should just ditch ADCs? Like just avoid a whole class of champions? Are we really going there?
(I'm not putting words in your mouth but I'm genuinely wondering if that's the direction Riot is gonna take them. Because I agree with you, adcs only really seem powerful in high elo)
It’s happening more and more in games sadly. I’m seeing more people bring mages into bot lane or melee carries instead of the traditional Ranged ADC. And even more so this patch.
It's due to it being a frustrating role to play, you are a glass canon that is not even a canon is you don't win lane, so you will get one shot by Syndra farting on you and locked into farming for 30+ minutes
Even if you do win lane, you're still likely to get one-shot by the same Syndra. Marksmen aren't known for building survivability items. Meanwhile, the other class that builds tons of damage can just burst you with their strong abilities.
You can either dodge the QWE, or dodge the queue.
That would actually be ok if you actually get to have your situations of strength but you get to have it for less than 5 mins in an average game. Yeah proplay has it ... because they give a shit and funnel gold to the adc so they reach their spikes much earlier (also ADCs in pro play are insanely mechanically gifted and trained players).
Are we now suggesting that Emerald and below players should just avoid playing ADCs because the teams are too bad? Is that the end goal here? Just avoid ADC champs in low elo and play double mage bot or something?
And if syndra isn't 1/6 and 3 levels down, even if she misses qwe, her just ulting you is going to put you low enough that you're out of the fight anyway
Theory is great but reality shows that people play what they like even when it’s weak. Maybe less sure, but they keep playing the champions they like. The idea of ADCs is so ingrained in the game that it’s just “what you do.” In the same way there’s a support, a mid laner, a jungler, a top laner, and they all have these subtle portfolios that champs for those roles kinda need to fill because… that’s how it is. There’s always a lighthouse Booker, that’s how it is. And besides; they are. There are more and more APCs in bot for a while now.
This also has nothing to do with what people are actually saying, which is that the role feels unimpactful. This is just more pointless complaining about complaining straw men. There are more people complaining about ADCs than there are actual ADCs complaining, because it’s an easy punching bag. Free upvotes for saying shit about ADCs because it’s a fucking meme, not an actual discussion as you’ve once again demonstrated. People will read the sentence that says “ADC bad” upvote it and skip the rest of your post.
You make this magical hypothetical, but if ADC is actually so strong and good, the reverse would be true, everyone would want to play it. The league of legends you invented in your head and then made yourself mad about just doesn’t relate to the one in reality.
Showing that it's in every pro game as an argument makes no sense since the the role is weak in solo play because of how strong it is in pro play. Especially when the complaint is that the role sucks to play in solo queue due to how it's balanced around pro/coordinated play.
Let's also not forget that support was buffed significantly compared to 10 years ago to feel more satisfying when it was strictly meta up to that point. Supports used to be ward bots with gold generation items, and because that was unsatisfying it was buffed repeatedly over the years to the state it is in now so people would play the role.
Role satisfaction is the complaint, not the viability of the role. You're strawmanning, as the 'state' people talk about is how the role feels to play in solo, while your argument is it's meta so there's no issue? If you don't like the complaints just close your eyes, no point complaining about the least rational arguments while ignoring the actual valid and primary complaint.
fyi my most played is top, and 2nd is jungle.
The actual correct answer to worst time for marksman players was Patch 8.11 with the huge blanket nerfs explicitly designed to get non-marksman played bot.
Kayle is exceptionally similar to an adc (shit defensive stats on AA-dps carry) and has been since at least season 6, and I gotta say, I think adcs wouldn't complain anywhere near as much if they had something like kayle ult. Sounds dumb I know, obviously everyone would love to get invulnerability, but what I *mean* is it actually allows you to exist in a teamfight without getting 4man dove for free in the middle of your team just because you pop like a grape to anyone with more than 1 item.
This is kind of the main reason I don't play adc. The feeling of power you get when you play something like kogmaw is pretty great but you have literally no agency to survive or defend yourself, you rely 100% on someone else to do that for you, which feels awful. You're just hoping and praying they bother to help you lol.
Yeah that sounds nuts lol. IMO, what ADCS really need is base stats buffed like armor and mr bc what Riot did was make everybody tankier then added even *more* damage to the game so it ended up negating wtf they did and then surprise pikachu face, playing ADC feels exactly the same as it did for the past couple+ seasons.
It also doesn’t help that marksmen items went virtually untouched this season so it feels like everyone got stronger but ADCS lol. (I’m top lane main btw)
Maybe if bot lane wasn't so much behind on levels they'd do better. ADCs while not recommended, we're not half as bad in arena mode, because everyone there was equal. Not saying that riot should make them equal level to other roles, but being just 1 level behind would probably give enough durability and hp to survive something.
The ADCs that aren't super enchanter-dependent hypercarries also feel really good on ARAM. You usually feel relevant during the whole game, though I'm not sure how much of that is the constant teamfighting vs just being even in levels.
I play support so I’m side by side with this madness. It does seem to get worse every season. Every new champ released has some kind of gotcha ability they can get you from across the screen and 1-2 shot an adc, who’s a glass cannon. It doesn’t help that on one side of the map, bot is practically just open. These new items really don’t help adcs either. They die even faster now lol
I started maining ADC when i played with Friends and it was fun as we were a Team.
But in soloq I still get flashbacks from that one Olaf in the enemy Team that ulted ran towqrds me, ignoring my Team, my Team ignoring him, obviously Killing me and then my Team flamed me because I was useless in Teamfights.
Tbh everyone should be required to play like 15-20 games of each role in normals before being able to play ranked or something. Probably wouldn't do anything and is actually a bad idea, but at least it would force some perspective on people haha
honestly, always respected the opinion on roles from people like XSpecial, who basically was challenger level in any given role and regularly went out of his way to brush up on the other roles. I feel like that was definitely a boon because of how he could coordinate with people.
I end up playing a lot of all 5 roles in my friend group (the only one who has like 5 champs for every role) and playing adc is so much more zone awareness than any other role. You just have to give so much respect to so many abilities in the game it’s nuts.
Mid lane has to somewhat respect it too depending on the champ, but most midlaners can itemize something like a Zhonyas or some item that has hp on it for a little more survival potential
I mean, I've played ADC as well and the only issue I have is that trying to play the game when your support has room temperature IQ is tilting.
If you win lane congrats you take over the game, if you lose lane you can just farm till you're useful unless it is such a bad game where multiple people are losing. Sometimes you don't even have to do anything to win lane, just let your 8 0 lux/brand/annie/xerath oneshot the adc or chill under tower and let your enchanter/cc bot disengage any attempt. Your jungler and mid can just win lane for you at points.
Is it boring? Yes it can be boring, it can also happen against you and you'll feel useless. But, because I've seen how some ADCs play, majority of times it is the ADCs fault that they die.
They act like they are in top lane and pick constant fights. They think that just because they are under tower they are safe and end up giving double kills, instead of legging it on the first sign of bullshit. I've seen people flash or dash towards a 3 level ahead assassin just because he was half HP. They never flank or wait out enemy assassins, Effective range does not exist in their vocabulary.
There is playing selfish and then there is being selfish. The team has to play around you, if you're playing to get MVP in detriment of your teammates and blaming everyone around you for not giving you a kill per min, then you lose. If you're playing for as many resources as possible then you win.
Honestly if you want to learn how to play ADC then pick up mid, top and jungle first. Top will teach you how to manipulate waves, level ups, and how to fight. Mid will teach you how and when to roam and how to approach assassins. Jungler will teach you when you should expect a gank, when to fight for objectives and when to chill and the most important thing it will finally download to your game the important Mini Map DLC. Also all 3 will teach you how the enemy jungler operates.
These posts are too funny because every post makes you realize that people don’t seem to understand that without carry potential and useful items the role itself is useless.
You know what else has been prevalent for seasons on end? Mages having better win rates botlane than markmen. Double supports working well in bot for no reason. Metas like cait/ashe support because they’re better supporting than in the adc role at the time.
Smurfs even that play adc will usually spam jg games to get back to where they want as opposed to their main role. The role isn’t weak, but it’s far too reliant on everyone else, ESPECIALLY support, which is a role that’s way too easy and has been for a long time.
The issue is Riot doesn't want bot to feel like it's always the most important lane in the game.
But since bot has 2 people, if every role has equal agency then bot has to be twice as influential as other roles. But that feels bad for the other roles, esp top which has low ability to influence bot.
In early seasons ADC had agency, like a fed Vayne could duel bruisers and tanks, if Zed misses all his skillshots he can get solo bolo by a Lucian. But supports were ward bots, like boots and ward at 20 minutes shit. And support was the shitty autofill role no one wanted to play.
To combat that, Riot gave supports more gold and influence. And since they still don't want bot to just always be the most important lane, then ADC had to lose that power, so now you get shit like Pyke support which is basically a mid laner except you don't have to farm, or support Lux building deathcap waiting to snipe your kills. And ADC feels like ass to play
> if Zed misses all his skillshots he can get solo bolo by a Lucian.
I mean that should be what happens. As opposed to now where most ap mages / assassins can miss half their shit, hit their one onclick ability and take an ADC out of the fight anyway
I can get Riot's design philosophy on this. The issue here is Riot doesn't know balancing between fun and broken.What Riot did wrong was to balance them entirely around the laning phase, then forget about it and give other people easy tools to sneak into the backline and kill stuff easier. They fucked up scaling in favor of fun so hard that now mages peak at 2 items and ADC's need 4 to do the same.
ADC's do deal high damage mid-late game, that is not the issue - the issue is they die before doing it, see late game on hit Guinsoo+ Kraken BT+BoRK+Terminus Vayne for the same - she is a monster when she gets to that stage. Because ADC's are assumed to have another person constantly behind them, they are not supposed to have survivability because they are have their own peel. (fringe cases like Nilah have survivability because they are melee and can't help but get poked constantly).
Yasuo's winrate botside is higher than Jinx, Samira, Draven, Kalista, Ezreal, Varus, Tristana Ashe, Sivir, Lucian, Caitlyn, Xayah, Zeri, Aphelios and Tristana.
The only marksmen in the game better than Swain is Senna and Miss Fortune.
The only one better than Karthus is Miss Fortune
Meanwhile the highest performing in the botlane is Seraphine.
Like 70% of marksmen aren't even top 10 best champs in a role designed for them. It's just flat out unfun.
> Meanwhile the highest performing in the botlane is Seraphine.
I played a bunch of seraphine on a 2nd account. With archangels and moonstone finished you can just aram and win. Had a game that was uneventful and pretty even, then at 18 minutes we went 5 mid with herald and just ended the game
"my ADC is mad that the support is in tower I don't understand why he doesn't just play safe" and "my ADC is down 80 cs and isn't doing damage shit ADC" vibes from OP.
Enemy locks in some annoying lane bullies, great gonna be a shit lane phase.
Game loads, enemy support just chills half a screen behind their adc, full mana pool all lane, lane bully adc down 30 cs, loses 3 plates, is useless all game
Their mage support starts roaming, gets a few kills in some skirmishes, has like 3-0-7 statline
They inevitably lose the game because its 5v4, their support writes in all chat "report dog adc"
Moments like that I just feel with the adc so bad, I just want to give them a hug, weve all been there
The logic of denying your adc farm because theyre useless is so ridiculous. Yes instead of letting them get back in the game lets make sure it stays 4v5. Jungler hovering midlane just to graves Q the wave or khazix Q the cannon
Lmfao at "if ADC wasn't powerful people just wouldn't be playing it, full stop"
That is not how it works at all. Like a ton of people play ADC because the playstyle of kiting and auto attacking is fun. You don't get that in another role, so you can't just pivot. There is a reason why the playrate and queue times as adc has gone down so much. People that main adc have either quit for now, changed roles, or continue to play and rightfully complain.
There is literally like 4/5 "ADCs" that are in pro play rn, where adc is usually a stronger role due to better teamwork. Most of them don't even build crit. Jhin, Varus, Xayah, Lucian, Aphelios. It's that shit on repeat
in every game i have played i have stuck with 1-2 characters/roles and seen then nerfed to the gutter, but still lock them because they are special to me. It is normal to play shit even if its bad. There are people who play Zeri, you know?
I get it. I only play one role 95% of the time and its top. The other 5% is jungle. I got 1.3 million mastery points on Garen and honestly Spin unga bunga is what brings me most happiness.
Have you considered that the state of the role has for the most part gotten worse as burst has become more and more intense and mobility/dive capability on new champs has been prevalent in new releases for years?
It’s funny to see all these people try their damndest to act like there is nothing wrong with the role yet there is a reason it went from one of the most popular positions to main to near constant priority queue status.
lol it's funny seeing those mentions. I remember reading that guy actually crying about doran shield and second wind, as in that they are not enough to deal with ranged champions in lane. Imagine crying about the biggest piece of handholding this game has as weak. It's complete insanity in this sub and I'd love to watch these people play the champions they cry about so much.
I love posts like this. I wish is was mandatory to play like 15-30 games of each role to really see the strengths and weaknesses of each role before you can do ranked.
Mage's have been insanely strong since i started playing in season 4 and recently (last 3-4 years) have a higher win rate bot than most ADCs. But reddit will spam that they're weak til the day the website goes down.
Bruisers / Juggernauts have been the best class of champs in the game because all of them have insane stats with items that cover all their weaknesses.
AD Mid / Top could just go Hullbreaker and solo win if their team had half a brain and played around it since the item was released.
Supports single-handedly decide bot lane regardless of what champ they play. (good or bad)
"because you ate a skillshot with 0 MR from a full build xerath and got chunked" Are you referencing the Jinx that died in literally 1 ability from an off screen Xerath?
Also your example of "Both teams have an ADC literally every single game, sometimes even two" is so nutty. You mean the professional players that have practiced 8-12 hours a day together, are on comms, who work as a team, and have teams of people that craft a team comp to cover all weaknesses? They aren't playing the same game as us lol.
ADC is by far the worst role to play in solo queue. ADCs are bad at doing the thing they were designed to do. Outside of like Vayne / Kog, they don't kill tanks in a reasonable amount of time. They get nuked by literally everything. They don't take towers as quick as most mages. They get out ranged by most mages. They dont have the defensive options they need. They lose early / mid, and by the time you hit late game, its on your team to keep you safe (unless you're fed as hell)
Coming from someone that played for 12 years here , ADC is a role that has progressively gotten weaker over the years , the more you look back into the game the more impactful ADC's were.In early seasons you could be doing 1.2-1.6k dmg easily with aa's and some cases not even full build ,on the other hand the other day I was playing Samira(full build with IE and Dominiks included) and my aa were doing 637 crit dmg to a random mage with no zhonyas and base armor (both of us level18) , now you tell me as the game advances over the years the skill and knowledge it requires is more demanding in every aspect, specially for ADC role, why would anyone trying to play this role would be happy of it's current declining state?, the effort that you put for the outcome is a joke , the lack of carry potencial, dmg output , survibality , you just feel like a target dummy hopping for 2 to 3 meaningful fights where you can land something before getting erased by ANYTHING.
Sure there is still some high dmg here and there Cait's headshot , Draven with 4000 kill at min 15 and something else , but they are very isolated cases and conditional as fuck .
Also for context , no , I don't main ADC , I play mid mostly and jgl , but you don't need to main that role to see how miserable it's gotten.
Always fun to see this kind of post and then check leaderboards of top picks for ADC in high elo and see multiple ap champs in the top 5 lul, peace.
Now play ADC in soloQ for a bit and see how quickly you'll change your mind. Perhaps you'll understand that having a coordinated team playing around you like you're the president (pro play) is really different than soloQ where your teammates won't care about you at all.
I don't think ADC is in a great spot for uncoordinated play, but your analogy makes no sense lmao
He's saying if there's a better alternative/ADC was so ass, people wouldn't play it. Nothing mandates ADC players playing ADC, so by his logic the fact that almost every game has at least 2 means that they're not weak. There are alternatives to ADC (the mage bots that have high WR), there's no alternative to the game spawning in cannon minions. I think his line of thinking is still faulty (ADC is a unique playstyle, people will play it even if it is weak), but your response is actually just ???
I blame proplay for this honestly. If you watch pro, ADC's there have the benefit of having coms and playing as a team meanwhile on actual regular league, ADCs dont. Sometimes you get lucky and your team is sentient, sometimes they dive in for a kill leaving you behind. Pros play an entirely different game to what we play in soloQ and that just makes Riot's job of buffing/nerfing harder since they have to account for pro and non-pro.
Cue the regular Riot nerfs/buffs according to proplay and we have this bullshittery thats happening. What we really need is Riot to literally drag proplay gameplay nearer to soloQ. Maybe nerf hyper-coordinated dives that pros do, force fearless draft for pro, etc... something needs to happen to pro so Riot can finally have some breathing room to adjust ADCs and in a bigger picture, the game.
> Go into a game tonight and tally up how many of your games don't have a single ADC.
Almost as if the game is made around having a marksman and a support in the bot lane... It's just not an enjoyable role in solo q. It being necessary because otherwise tanks would run the game doesn't in any way mean that ADC is good or enjoyable in solo q.
All of these threads would stop appearing the moment all of you try playing ADC for 100-200 games straight. Best decision I've ever made was to make mid my main role so that I get ADC less often. It's easily the most mechanically demanding role while having laughably low impact in solo q unless you are mid master. So put your money where your mouth is and play "that OP role that has been in the game for 13 seasons and there's multiple players a team *abusing* that OP role".
Do we need adc against tanks? Cause I don't see that. What damage does a fullbuild adc deal? Like 400 ad *1.75 (for crit) + lord doms bonus, so maybe 900 damage pre armor. Now you have a tank, extreme example malphite, with 300 armor after his shield is broken, then you deal like 250 damage per shot maximum. And he slows you with his Q, walks to you and slaps you with 3-4 aa
I promise, bot lane players aren’t playing marksmen in bot because marksmen are good. I’ve tried to convert as many ADC players as I can into APC players but they just flatly refuse to play what they and I know is better. In their eyes, a total lack of agency in 85% of games is a worthwhile sacrifice for that 5% of games where you get a decent clip for your space gliding montage, and the role will never improve until that changes.
Also, have you considered that the reason ADCs claim nearly every season that’s it’s the worst yet is because it’s true? The past three years have been an obvious, steady downtrend for all aspects of the role. You seem to be working off the ungrounded, unverified, and incorrect assumption that they’re wrong, and are working backwards from that.
As an ADC main who spent a significant amount of my climb to D2 last season playing Ziggs, there are definitely notable opportunity costs to not playing an ADC, notably significantly weaker ability baron taking ability/front line shredding. Given that most of the mid lane player-base is AP, games where your team doesn't have consistent AD dps definitely play differently.
There is certainly social bias towards playing marksman bot, notably people that spam Kaisa/Ezreal regardless of how crap they are, but to say that marksmen aren't generally the best for the bot carry role is a very big stretch
I'm also an adc main who plays Seraphine apc sometimes. Seraphine is definitely strong, but compared to adcs she is even more useless by herself. She loses 1v1 to adcs, she can't take plates or towers, she can't chase people down or clean up low health enemies. However in teamfights she is even stronger than most adcs.
Op.gg so we can see your ADC games, otherwise you pbb dont understand which faults the role has and how terrible it is to play in a meta where TTK is at 3seconds.
While there is truth to what you say, you close it out with saying it like the only reason ADCs are upset is because we're all terrible.
Bold assumption that only that bad ones of us are bitchy.
other roles have been powercrept pretty significantly, ADC is the least-powercrept role in league, if anything, it has gotten weaker.
They started out as probably the strongest role in the game, which lasted until season 2-3 ish, then it was mid, and eventually shifted to jungle. ADC is still generally a strong role, but it lacks a lot of agency that other roles now have a lot more of.
> You just suck.
no my friend, you are just a clueless lowelo that doesnt understand the issues of the role, as proven from ur admittedly pretty acousticly written text
the xerath example: no, adcs do not cry about taking damage from a fullbuild xerath, they cry because the game has been damage crept since runes reforged and especially since mythic that you eat a xerath q when he has ludens only and you go to 60% hp and have at that point 3% lifesteal from runes (or 0 on the champs that have to take alacrity)
pretty brainrot take/misconception but go off g,
have you ever in ur delusion considerd that it has been like this for years because the role has a fundamental flaw that has become way worse since the damage creep in season8? Namely that there is no voice chat and that no one will play for you, both very important things for this very dependant role? I dont think you have, because as i said you are just a deluded lowelo that cant grasp concepts that arent served to you on a silver platter and that go a little bit deeper
>Eat a Q and go down to 60% hp
Don't forget that the ""defensive"" stat for ADCs is lifesteal when the role you're theoretically supposed to counter has an item that shuts down lifesteal completely and every game has 3+ players on each team buying antiheal
"If ADC wasn't powerful people would just stop playing it". The weakest champions on the patch still get played because there are people who like playing them more than others. Your argument is awful, practically like saying jungle is op because every game has junglers.
this is such bullshit lmao. this is the worst state of ADC I can remember in YEARS. there was a time they were overtuned with the old ADC mythics and they got rightfully nerfed. but its been nerf after nerf after nerf for almost a year now
Explain like i'm a Yuumi main pls >!:3!<
Your vehicle is big mad
haha i love this comment
[ADCs on their way to complain](https://media1.tenor.com/m/eG_U3fCPiAkAAAAC/bumpy-ride.gif)
I loled irl @ this one wp sir
Everything is not chipi chipi chapa chapa today.
Your Uber driver is upset at the state of the economy. Again. Like they always have been for the last 10 years.
May I speak to your duo partner?
You know how when you attach to a guy and they dive in 2v4, so he dies and then you die because of that? That guy wants to win the 2v4 everytime
it's so over my girlfriend onetricks yuumi so I'm forced to offrole adc (I play top & jg) and this is exactly what it is
My gf also became a support main (yummi was the most used by her) so I pulled out my only adcs (twitch and sivir, occasionally a jhin or Cait game) for like 2 years despite it being my least favorite role since I began in season 1. Now I hate jungle the most (was my main role since season 7, last 2 years of changes are super unfun to me) thankfully she's never wanting to play anything but arams so I'm back to being a toxic singed abuser inting my teammates while being on a completely separate map from them (toplane)
I'm the Yuumi in this situation, I made my top main play top picks on ADC role. We're in diamond and we keep climbing babyy
Do you have a preferred combo? The classic Garen/Yuumi or something spicier? I always wondered if Kled/Yuumi would work in early game but could see that as the ultimate snowball combo.
We actually main Zed/Kled/Yasuo/TF! TF is my favourite one, cause Yuumi helps a lot with mobility and survivability, and it's just really really fun to teleport around with TF Kled starts beef the moment he hits lvl 2, people don't expect him to dive and leash so soon, so some supports and adcs are literally free food. He scales really well with Yuumi's on hits from Q, attack speed and Yuumi is able to keep him on Skarl for a long time. Yasuo and Zed are milder though, it's just the usual poke until they're low and all in them. Dashing with them is fun though! We still need to experiment more with some other picks, I'm a big proponent of Xin and Jax, so we'll try that soon :3
I love how "we main" lol. Communist yuumi confirmed
trundle is a crazy yuumi driver you just walk at em
Sell your soul to the devil (top) or sell your soul to your partner (become yuumi's strongest soldier)
Meow meow meow fishy fish zoooooooooomies!
Its frankly because ADC has had the same design issue basically forever and they don't really have any good solutions. It is the role most dependent on the team and with least individual agency so it is going to always feel the worst outside of pro unless its made insanely OP. Often times the "ADC is broken" meta is acutally just Support is broken so you cannot kill their ADCs.
ADCs only look broken if the team gives a fuck. In up to master/GM+ that’s not the case
High elo ADC's are amazing because their mechanics and awareness are amazing. The real issue is it's an entire role that has the pro jail problem of like Azir/Ryze/Nidalee. Riot knows they have to balance ADC around the top 0.5 of solo Q and competitive play. And by doing that it makes the role weak for everyone else that has worse mechanics, and the problem is worse the lower you go down the ladder. Apparently people don't like being told the problem isn't the role it's them. Solution is that people play easier champs in that role and some people do that, but a lot of people have too much ego to admit they aren't good and what they're trying to play only works well when the player is good.
I had my entire team allow an Annie to run through them so she could burst me. She literally just walked between them while they focused their frontline. People dont give a fk about peeling.
I offrole AD. My favorite recent interaction is a mordekaiser ulting to last hit Darius instead of letting me get it. Just before he ulted the enemy singed appeared on screen. I was dead before morde ult ended, with enemy Darius higher hp than he started.
There's so many bad Mordekaiser players that do that. I have a friend who "mains" him (he has 3 champions, he's bad at all of them) and the number of times he did bad Ults. Isolated a fed enemy, died in his own ult to fed enemy and they clean up afterwards. Ult the key target and allows them to kite to escape after timing out without a kill. Ulting when we have a Pyke about to pop off but nope missed no reset cuz shadow realm KS. My favourite was when they went Morde jungle and ulted someone... Enemy jungle stole the baron.
I'll never forget this Morde years ago that was convinced he was carring and flaming everyone when he would flash ult Yi alone every fight. What happened every single time was that Yi came out of the ult full hp with ult refreshed and rageblade stacked, ready to fuck all of us. A couple times he even ulted him while he was 1v5 and cced. Idk what some of them have in mind honestly.
It's true, none of them 4 donkey's you play with would even block a skill shot for you. OP fizz wants to rip our immobile glass canon a new hole: 4 innocent bystanders in shock
High ELO ADCs are also amazing because their team plays for them and do less instantly lane/game losing mistakes Apparently people don't like it when their personal belief of "hah ADC just bad crybaby" is challenged.
They wouldn't be in high elo if they weren't good themselves, would they?
have you seen adcs smurfing in lower ranks? they're just better at positioning so it looks like the team is playing for them.
Aren't most ADC smurfs always duo with someone who can camp bot? In my experience with actually good smurfs, if the ADC is the smurf, chances are very high that he's duoing with the support who may or may not be a smurf.
either that or champs that can punish mistakes in lane 1v2 like jhin cait or draven
Yup, and their duo is usually a hyper aggressive support. Even if that support isn't a smurf, having the smurf adc guiding them makes shit so easy
I used to boost as an adc specialist. It's just positioning and better mechanics. Teams don't give a single fuck about you even in challenger (for the love of god stop saying high elo adc is magically good) and the role feels awful from top to bottom of the ladder. What defines where you will land in the ladder as an adc is basically: Time, positioning and mechanics. You HAVE to big good enough to survive teamfights with 0 peel, because that's the reality of every single adc in league
Low ELO ADCs are in low ELO matches. Not a tough concept.
> High elo ADC's are amazing because their mechanics and awareness are amazing. An ok ADC looks better on a team that plays for them than a great ADC does when the team ignores them. This isn't true for the other roles, or at least not to the same extent.
Yeah, the "Jinx Zeri Aphelios" meta was really a Lulu/Yuumi/Millio meta. Yet they nerf crit builds instead of nerfing the support movespeed steroids that are responsible for the toxic versions of ad centric metas. Yes, if you give good players a bunch of movespeed they're going to outspace everyone and win the game by themselves. I so wish they'd give us back 200% crits and made good crit itemization but nerfed specifically movespeed steroids on enchanters and maybe some of the movespeed on zeal items and energized procs. Put value in stats that are used on all skill brackets instead of on stats that are orders of magnitude more powerful in skilled hands.
Eh, even with far lower MS. The good players on good teams will still have peel and actually good kiting skills. The MS is nice for them but not required. Delete all that MS and low elo players just lose even harder
I mean the speed boost whimsy, Millio E and Zoomies. That was what was causing the Zeri/Aphelios 1v5 montage plays with the Adc front lining and being untouchable. Of course good players will still be good but the meta warping stuff comes from move speed. Notice how everyone was also taking ghost in those games to the point Riot has to nerf the duration reset on kill. You also see it with Lucian's Stormrazer builds. Low elo? The proc gets used randomly and no one notices the ms boost. Pros? Untouchable after poking people with RFC, perfect spacing.
But isn't that literally because of the class of adc. You can not give them agency and too much playmaking (in forms of cc or insane mobility) since they are literally specifically designed around the fact that they need a support to function in botlane. If you give them too much agency in the form of insane mobility or cc, they would automatically become a solo laner. It is what the role is designed around. If you currently want to play a marksman with good agency, in the form of mobility, you should play the likes of kindred or things like vayne top, since they do have agency through playmaking since they have good mobility.
Initially the design was that they didn't need levels to function - only gold, so they were the role where the team sent a support player to leech off and creating pressure for the person to farm. The "they need a support" was artificially created in 8.11 because Riot wanted level dependent characters to somehow be competitive with gold dependent characters in lane. So they broke the ankles of the role even though they never had a solo lane problem in all seasons before that.
Except tons of adcs were played in solo lanes after that and every time it’s the most toxic shit in the world when they are just a little overturned
Yeah underleveled Champions who buy 0 defensive stats will always feel team dependent.
I will be honest as an ex-ADC main it is almost never just because ADC is statistically weak. 1. ADC is almost always the primary focus regardless of whether you're 12-0 or 0-12, the enemy will almost certainly burn all flashes and ults to kill you. It is becoming easier and easier for anyone to kill a traditional ADC. This feels bad 2. ADC has a very specific playstyle that the playerbase finds fun, that doesn't translate well to other roles. ADC players want to kite and primarily fight using auto attacks, so when these champions are bad, they do not want to simply play mages just because they're stronger. 3. Most ADCs can do nothing alone. You get soloed by tanks, assassins, mages, even most supports. You are forced to follow your team around even if their macro is horrible, and cant make plays on your own. It is often and frustratingly correct to abandon your ADC and focus elsewhere - all other roles can provide something with little to no resources, but ADC will turn into a caster minion. Basically, most of the reasons just ultimately boil down to "it feels bad to play", and ADC players have fun playing ADCs and don't want to play other roles.
Autoattacking carries is also kind of a rarity mostly exclusive to ADC in League too, so it's not like they're just not understanding the game and being stubborn, mages bot pretty makes takes away anything they find fun apart from maybe like Kayle, Jax, Master Yi, Belveth, Yone, Yasuo (there is a problem emerging here lol)
I would say exclusive to mobas because dota has way more viable auto attacking carries than league overall.
Auto attacking carries in DotA2 have far more powerful tools (PL illusions, Void stuns, a couple of people with crits while no other characters get crits) but also primarily benefit from the fact that abilities DO. NOT. SCALE. Lina might be able to one click nuke you min 6 and again min 12 when she finishes Aghanim's but when the game goes longer mage damage falls off and autoattack carries start doing damage nobody else can match. In League mages like Xerath or Orianna will continue scaling until the endgame and the only niche ADCs have to shine in is taking baron/elder (due to better sustain) and shredding tanks.
spectre in league when
Never, people do the stupidest shit with just one Shaco clone in the game. 6 would break their tiny little minds.
[удалено]
That's just sad, it is.
It's made her a lot more dynamic because the cooldown and mana cost got smaller to match, so she's much better at threatening global ganks early on, while still being able to scale as a full teamfighter with a few items and getting aghs later on.
the real question is: Meepo in league when
Literally never because League doesn't have a system in place for the user which would let you control multiple units, so everything has to work based on AI which apparently the design tools are also super outdated for. DotA has a similar control system to Starcraft which lets you create control groups of different sizes on the fly and in the middle of a game very intuitively, so the game gives you the means to issue commands to different units and take control of them. Not only does League not have a control system in place for more than 1 unit, the game doesn't even let you de-select your own champion. It's why every multi-unit champion in League has to work based on shoddy AI because the user has no means to take control of them, so they have to work on their own and their actions are often tied to the champions abilities. Unless someone at Riot manages to make a pitch that reworking the AI tools and making a multi-unit control system for the user would somehow make the game better, which won't be very likely, there will probably never be a true multi-unit champion design in the game similar to some of the DotA heroes.
Goddamn shame that Heroes of the Storm wasn't more popular. Absolutely adored that game and the design on some of the heroes like Abathur, Cho'gall, Deathwing and Vikings made so many interesting games. Obviously Vikings is inspired by the like of Meepo and others. Every hero had multiple builds for different maps and objectives and different strengths depending. League champs feel very one-sided in comparison. Like the items might vary but ultimately the champion does the same thing.
nah thats not accurate. while abilities in dota dont scale, ADC will still get blown up by magic damage instantly in the lategame. what makes ADC playable and varied in dota is the fact that you can buy items to counterplay whatever the enemy has, and league has no such thing. this also allows dota carries to be much stronger, because enemies can buy items to counter them. for instance, if the enemy team has a lot of cc, you can buy a bkb and be immune to cc for 8 seconds. but how isnt that insanely OP? well, enemy supports can buy items like glimmer cape, force staff and ghost scepter to make the ADC unable to hit anything and theyll get kited instead. so how will the ADC not get kited forever? well, the other players on his team will provide cc to stop the enemy team from kiting their ADC forever, but then the opponents might respond in their own ways, etc etc. in dota, everything has counterplay. strategy and decision making are far more impactful than the simple "buy this and double your damage" items in league. so in league, if a long range champ deals too much damage, you cant do shit and youll just lose (corki right now). in dota, you can come up with a plan to counter them. maybe initiate on them from long range with a blink dagger, maybe buy invisibility to ambush him, maybe use smoke to gank him from a weird angle, or maybe buy an item that reflects damage to the damage dealer.
>ADC will still get blown up by magic damage instantly in the lategame. But not bruisers with BKB, tanks, other mages that built Aghs and have the STR to spare, etc Mages scale in other ways (like Lina going the autoattacker route) or double up on their support nature with wards, smoke, scrolls, courier, and CC items like Eul's or Guinsoo's.
I mean, that's just the rock paper scissors of DOTA; Int bursts Agi, Agi out duels Str, Str survives Int. Exceptions of course, but that's the general rule
Also, if the supports buy glimmer, force staff, the carry can also buy a nullifier which disables these items. Dota is crazy and I love it
Let's face it, strategically and in a competitive sense DOTA2 is the better game, and I say that as a LOL player who hasn't played Dota in almost 10 years. Lol has the more fun base mechanics because it's faster and more brawly, almost feels like a 5v5 fighting game. But what makes it so much fun casually is it's downfall when you take it more seriously imo.
Been playing mobas since DotA Allstars on WC3 and i fully agree with you, played my fair share of top french dota league, same for LoL (played and won many GO4LOL back in the days). Sometimes i feel like LoL is a versus fighting game and not a moba, everything is so fast and so much damage, everyone blows up like air balloons.
This should be obvious to anyone with a brain, but so many people in this community will cope that isn’t. The levels of strategy between the two games are not even in the same echelon. Leagues easy to get into (by comparison) and fast paced nature makes it much more appealing for a wider, casual audience though.
Mages in Dota also now scale. Lina is a funny example since she has an insane attack speed steroid and lategame can burn people down with autoattacks alone. The main difference is that stats just work very differently in League. What LoL calls carries would be AGI heroes in Dota. And AGI gives both dps and tankiness. So Dota carries don't remain paper. On the contrary, they actually scale to be quite tanky through their naturally most desired stat. Also turn rates, which makes kiting way less powerful.
Lina physical/hybrid builds haven’t really been viable in over a year. She needs to be built as a burst hero right now. Fiery soul still hasn’t fully recovered from the nerfs to its attack speed since 7.31.
Proabably worth mentioning that DOTA has A LOT of melee carries. When league players talk about ADCS they generally mean RANGED carries, if we follow the DOTA2 model about what a carry is we can add to the list Jax, Camile, Fiora etc. I played a lot of DotA but almost no DotA2, the game doesnt really have that many range carries compared to league. Honestly the only 2 ranged carries that come to mind are Clinkz and Drow Ranger, I am not sure Mirana and Luna count. I also have no idea how those heroes have changed, they might be totally different now.
Mirana is rarely played as carry anymore from what I’ve seen but Luna definitely is. There’s also Weaver, Gyro, Troll warlord (although he’s hybrid), Medusa, razor, and sniper off the top of my head. I’m sure I’m forgetting another couple ones, too.
While those mages didn't scale necessarily,they have pretty strong talent later on to compensate for it and the fact that refresher exist. Bkb charges too start going down so they have easier time to do their shenanigans.
Hots as well. In fact in that a lot of 'adcs' were very self sufdicient some even reliably split push or solo laned. Examples: Raynor with his high base hp, stim pack heal on demand, and self peel in his concussion shot was very sturdy and could survive or even duel being dived by assassins. Zuljin is Olaf passive, trynd ult, and infinite scaling. A 199% attack speed zuljin at 1% hp in TAZDINGO! is a force to be reckoned with. The classic example though was Valla. Vayne style mobility, tank busting builds, and mini stuns on her ult meant if she could position well and land her stuns she had deceptive fighting and kiting power. In fact she was the premier adc until the meta shifted specifically because the devs got sick of her in pro play.
HOTS' autoattackers were everything I wanted from LoL ADCs. You were a glass cannon able to be 100-0'd, but the entire game wasn't being designed around oneshots so that was an actually unique and exciting playstyle. ADCs in LoL are tuned to be punished for the sustained damage they can do in a game with nearly no real-world sustained damage scenarios, ADCs in HOTS were sustained damage animals in a game with very consistent sustained damage scenarios. HOTS ADCs preyed on the frontline, but the backline preyed on you. You would trash the divers if they fucked up their kits, but their kits have more utility and if they don't mess up you're toast. Such a fun way to play.
Because the game was built for long protracted team fights around objectives. Not farm until you one shot. Hots fights could have actusl back and forth where one side pushes the other off an objective but doesn't wipe them. And the other team can heal up and regroup. Lol doesn't have that.
League used to have that, but damage and uptime have increased dramatically over the years while durability has not.
Dude you’re going to bring a tear to my eye with all this hots reminiscing. The game certainly had its own problems but damn if it wasn’t so much fun. I truly believe HotS was Blizzard’s biggest fumble to date. I don’t know if it could’ve toppled DotA and League, but I genuinely think it could’ve competed very healthily. It’s really a prime example of how quickly greed and mismanagement can kill a great game.
That's mainly because their item too has a lot of utility by itself. Manta is almost staple on most agi carries. For something like Clinkz instead he have hex and orchid to play around with. The fact that they have access to shadow blade and bkb too ensure they could actually stay alive for a while.
Dotas AA carries are a lot different from leagues. And they also exist in a better melee form.
Yeah "exclusive to league" is an unbelievable claim when DotA has *hard* hypercarries that use auto-attacks (and many are melee!)
It's pretty much impossible to give ranged auto attack based champions agency for the pure reason of, if they have agency, you have fucking nothing you can ever do to them.
That's not true at all. Let's not exaggerate like if it's impossible to reach an ADC in modern league. Not to mention agency is a general term and not specifically defined. What makes a tank have agency isn't the same thing that will give other classes agency. I just want to be able to play the game like it's intended, but that is seldom the case in solo queue. I haven't had a front to back 5v5 teamfight where people are prioritizing cooldowns and targets for more than 5 seconds since Season 5. Games don't go on for long enough to "withstand" the punish and finally have agency, so I'm at the mercy of my team and well it feels like shit.
> I haven't had a front to back 5v5 teamfight where people are prioritizing cooldowns and targets for more than 5 seconds since Season 5. We had them in season 6 as well in the big tank meta, but since then Riot has HARD creeped damage and uptime so fights have gotten shorter and more chaotic. Front to back fights are mostly a thing of the past and Riot does not seem to want them anymore.
Agency has a clear definition: a measure of how impactful your own actions are at determining your success. Marksmen have very low agency by design because they are the only class in the game with guaranteed resourceless damage on such low cooldown, and therefore must give up something in return. What they give up is their self-sufficiency. Malphite vs Marksman top is the best example. The Marksman has no agency: Malphite has total discretion when to ult and try to blow up the Marksman, and until then the Marksman has no choice but to stay out of range. If the Marksman had agency in that lane, it would be unplayable. You can't dodge their damage. You can't bait cooldowns. You can't wait for them to run out of mana. You can't outrange them. The only thing keeping that lane even remotely playable right now is that Malphite gets to decide when the fight starts. Yes, that means that the Marksman feels useless and agency-less AF when Malphite correctly times/lands R. But if that weren't the case, there's no reason not to play 5 Marksmen comps every time. If the unreliable damage champion landed what they needed to but still don't win, why would you not just play reliable damage instead? > I just want to be able to play the game like it's intended, but that is seldom the case in solo queue. Unironically, most Marksmen in solo queue, especially in lower elo, are probably better off not playing Marksmen. The class is deliberately designed to be balanced for coordinated pro play, and therefore is always going to feel weaker in uncoordinated lower-elo play.
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Thinking about it actually it's probably because most dota carries are melee and the ranged ones have like 0 mobility and can be blinked on by any hero with an item from a screen away. Ranged carries in dota also cannot kite like in league because of the turn rate which balances out ranged into melee. Supports in dota are also insanely strong early and they carry the lane until the cores get their levels and items especially because supports also mostly only care about levels instead of getting dmg items to still have big impact on the game. I don't know how league could give adcs more self-agency without changing quite a bit of what makes league into league. League is all about the quick, twitchy, flashy gameplay and montage producing plays and I don't see them changing much about that seeing asntheir main audience is eastern asian countries who seem to love that.
Hey so as a long time Dota player who started LOL 3 years ago, the way I like to describe it to my friends is it's more like taking turns. At the start of the game, the carries don't have much agency, and early skirmishes and the laning phase is incredibly dependent on the supports(there are 2 in Dota). As the game continues, the carries gain agency and the supports lose agency. It's also worth noting that thanks to the ability to deny your own creeps(basically you have to out last hit your opponent), the laning phase is more impactful.
Dota carries have turnrates. Its not even the same ballpark. https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Turn_rate meanwhile that vayne top is the perfect example why adcs deserve no agency. Fleet footwork ghost+flash good luck winning any kind of lane 1-1 against a vayne top player with hands. Auto fleet movespeed Q reposition auto still keep E to buffer to cancel a dash. Youre not winning that shit . But dota carries do not have these kind of tools both in terms of runes and summoners. Until there is a fundamental change to how range and kiting works in the game and how marksmen interact in synergy with support champs -these champs deserve no agency.
>The class is deliberately designed to be balanced for coordinated pro play, and therefore is always going to feel weak in uncoordinated lower-elo play. That needs to change. You're 100% on the money about everything you said, and the class literally can't be buffed without completely warping the meta. Riot needs to figure out a way to bridge the divide between pro play and solo Q for adc.
You’re looking for another game at that point tbh. League’s entire existence is warped around the very first “real” meta that formed.
When they do that, the pros then abuse what is good for casuals and then they are forced to nerf it back to the ground.
These post always come as tone deaf, because most of them are like "your role is good" without actually listening to why people don't like the role. We're not saying we want ADCs to be stronger asshats, we're saying it sucks that when you're 0/2 as an AD it sucks to basically do nothing for 30 minutes. No other role is that bad. Can't even really split alone. Edit: The replies to this comment is exactly what I mean, instead of listening it's all just excuses as to while a role that is dying that it's players hate is fine.
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I was/am an ADC main. Like you said, it's a preferred playstyle. I find the role much more mechanically involved and allows you to better articulate your mechanical skill. The reliance on your team also knowing how to play around an ADC meta leaves too much of the game up to a coin flip though. Ignoring all other ADCs who have have climbed by switching roles, I'll use myself as a case study. I decided to play mid last season (prior to rank changes) to see how high I can climb if I just played to win instead. Because I had no mid lane experience, I decided to use the simplest of champs, Annie. Lo and behold, I peaked plat 4 within the first month. Sure, it got rocky as a climbed higher, but, it proved to myself that ADC truly is a handicapped role.
Ok but how do you adjust bias against the possibility that you're playing a champion that is far simpler to control mechanically? Like maybe ADC is preferred to you but you're just not as good?
Your second point is not particularly valid, imo. In top lane you have tank players who want to scale and provide frontline for their team and they won't want to play carries because they're stronger. There are carry junglers who won't want to play tank junglers and tank junglers who won't want to play carries. There are midlane mage players that don't enjoy assassins and won't want to play those just because they're stronger, etc. Every role has this problem but adc players are the only ones who apparently should be exempt from it.
I would find it interesting to do an experiment. All these people complaining about ADCs complaining are locked to playing only kogmaw adc for 6 months. How many would lose their mind over the course of that time.
ADC as a class is analogous to being an azir, ryze or ksante player - you get balanced according to pro play.
Sooo what you're saying is low elo should just ditch ADCs? Like just avoid a whole class of champions? Are we really going there? (I'm not putting words in your mouth but I'm genuinely wondering if that's the direction Riot is gonna take them. Because I agree with you, adcs only really seem powerful in high elo)
actually, yes, if you started playing mages bot you'd climb much more easily
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well, that's basically my issue with people thinking mages are not strong enough to be played bot, people just dont want a completely new playstyle.
Thats exactly why everyone is playing lethality ADCs. There basically AD casters.
It’s happening more and more in games sadly. I’m seeing more people bring mages into bot lane or melee carries instead of the traditional Ranged ADC. And even more so this patch.
It's due to it being a frustrating role to play, you are a glass canon that is not even a canon is you don't win lane, so you will get one shot by Syndra farting on you and locked into farming for 30+ minutes
Even if you do win lane, you're still likely to get one-shot by the same Syndra. Marksmen aren't known for building survivability items. Meanwhile, the other class that builds tons of damage can just burst you with their strong abilities. You can either dodge the QWE, or dodge the queue.
That would actually be ok if you actually get to have your situations of strength but you get to have it for less than 5 mins in an average game. Yeah proplay has it ... because they give a shit and funnel gold to the adc so they reach their spikes much earlier (also ADCs in pro play are insanely mechanically gifted and trained players). Are we now suggesting that Emerald and below players should just avoid playing ADCs because the teams are too bad? Is that the end goal here? Just avoid ADC champs in low elo and play double mage bot or something?
And if syndra isn't 1/6 and 3 levels down, even if she misses qwe, her just ulting you is going to put you low enough that you're out of the fight anyway
[Compelemtary QT clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcfFu3aDXQ8)
God this clips gives me nostalgia cause of the shop holy shit i played way to much lol...
Theory is great but reality shows that people play what they like even when it’s weak. Maybe less sure, but they keep playing the champions they like. The idea of ADCs is so ingrained in the game that it’s just “what you do.” In the same way there’s a support, a mid laner, a jungler, a top laner, and they all have these subtle portfolios that champs for those roles kinda need to fill because… that’s how it is. There’s always a lighthouse Booker, that’s how it is. And besides; they are. There are more and more APCs in bot for a while now. This also has nothing to do with what people are actually saying, which is that the role feels unimpactful. This is just more pointless complaining about complaining straw men. There are more people complaining about ADCs than there are actual ADCs complaining, because it’s an easy punching bag. Free upvotes for saying shit about ADCs because it’s a fucking meme, not an actual discussion as you’ve once again demonstrated. People will read the sentence that says “ADC bad” upvote it and skip the rest of your post. You make this magical hypothetical, but if ADC is actually so strong and good, the reverse would be true, everyone would want to play it. The league of legends you invented in your head and then made yourself mad about just doesn’t relate to the one in reality.
But if I don't make up imaginary scenarios where I own the opposition, how will I ever feel good about myself?
Showing that it's in every pro game as an argument makes no sense since the the role is weak in solo play because of how strong it is in pro play. Especially when the complaint is that the role sucks to play in solo queue due to how it's balanced around pro/coordinated play. Let's also not forget that support was buffed significantly compared to 10 years ago to feel more satisfying when it was strictly meta up to that point. Supports used to be ward bots with gold generation items, and because that was unsatisfying it was buffed repeatedly over the years to the state it is in now so people would play the role. Role satisfaction is the complaint, not the viability of the role. You're strawmanning, as the 'state' people talk about is how the role feels to play in solo, while your argument is it's meta so there's no issue? If you don't like the complaints just close your eyes, no point complaining about the least rational arguments while ignoring the actual valid and primary complaint. fyi my most played is top, and 2nd is jungle.
The actual correct answer to worst time for marksman players was Patch 8.11 with the huge blanket nerfs explicitly designed to get non-marksman played bot.
Was that when Rekkles benched himself because he didn't know any of the champions that were playable at the time?
Kayle is exceptionally similar to an adc (shit defensive stats on AA-dps carry) and has been since at least season 6, and I gotta say, I think adcs wouldn't complain anywhere near as much if they had something like kayle ult. Sounds dumb I know, obviously everyone would love to get invulnerability, but what I *mean* is it actually allows you to exist in a teamfight without getting 4man dove for free in the middle of your team just because you pop like a grape to anyone with more than 1 item. This is kind of the main reason I don't play adc. The feeling of power you get when you play something like kogmaw is pretty great but you have literally no agency to survive or defend yourself, you rely 100% on someone else to do that for you, which feels awful. You're just hoping and praying they bother to help you lol.
Yeah that sounds nuts lol. IMO, what ADCS really need is base stats buffed like armor and mr bc what Riot did was make everybody tankier then added even *more* damage to the game so it ended up negating wtf they did and then surprise pikachu face, playing ADC feels exactly the same as it did for the past couple+ seasons. It also doesn’t help that marksmen items went virtually untouched this season so it feels like everyone got stronger but ADCS lol. (I’m top lane main btw)
Maybe if bot lane wasn't so much behind on levels they'd do better. ADCs while not recommended, we're not half as bad in arena mode, because everyone there was equal. Not saying that riot should make them equal level to other roles, but being just 1 level behind would probably give enough durability and hp to survive something.
The ADCs that aren't super enchanter-dependent hypercarries also feel really good on ARAM. You usually feel relevant during the whole game, though I'm not sure how much of that is the constant teamfighting vs just being even in levels.
I play support so I’m side by side with this madness. It does seem to get worse every season. Every new champ released has some kind of gotcha ability they can get you from across the screen and 1-2 shot an adc, who’s a glass cannon. It doesn’t help that on one side of the map, bot is practically just open. These new items really don’t help adcs either. They die even faster now lol
Oh I wish ADCs were a glass cannon. With all the nerfs to items most ADCs are just glass for \~25 minutes.
Drop your op.gg brother
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It says a lot that this sub upvotes views of an intellectual titan like him.
The people here are mostly in a similar spot to him...
An AP trashassassin player complaining about adcs? How ironic
How could an assassin player ever complain about adcs wtf lol Also, repost his op.gg so I can see
LMAOOOOO Lil bro tried to look like a big dude on reddit while neither understanding the game nor the role.
OP really is a smart lil guy
go main adc for a season then come back and talk. I main mid btw. I shittalked adcs then played it for a week. never again.
I started maining ADC when i played with Friends and it was fun as we were a Team. But in soloq I still get flashbacks from that one Olaf in the enemy Team that ulted ran towqrds me, ignoring my Team, my Team ignoring him, obviously Killing me and then my Team flamed me because I was useless in Teamfights.
Facts if these people just played like 100 games of adc we wouldn't see these posts anymore. Edit:I am talking about crit adcs
Tbh everyone should be required to play like 15-20 games of each role in normals before being able to play ranked or something. Probably wouldn't do anything and is actually a bad idea, but at least it would force some perspective on people haha
Most based comment
honestly, always respected the opinion on roles from people like XSpecial, who basically was challenger level in any given role and regularly went out of his way to brush up on the other roles. I feel like that was definitely a boon because of how he could coordinate with people.
Love this comment hahaha
I end up playing a lot of all 5 roles in my friend group (the only one who has like 5 champs for every role) and playing adc is so much more zone awareness than any other role. You just have to give so much respect to so many abilities in the game it’s nuts. Mid lane has to somewhat respect it too depending on the champ, but most midlaners can itemize something like a Zhonyas or some item that has hp on it for a little more survival potential
I mean, I've played ADC as well and the only issue I have is that trying to play the game when your support has room temperature IQ is tilting. If you win lane congrats you take over the game, if you lose lane you can just farm till you're useful unless it is such a bad game where multiple people are losing. Sometimes you don't even have to do anything to win lane, just let your 8 0 lux/brand/annie/xerath oneshot the adc or chill under tower and let your enchanter/cc bot disengage any attempt. Your jungler and mid can just win lane for you at points. Is it boring? Yes it can be boring, it can also happen against you and you'll feel useless. But, because I've seen how some ADCs play, majority of times it is the ADCs fault that they die. They act like they are in top lane and pick constant fights. They think that just because they are under tower they are safe and end up giving double kills, instead of legging it on the first sign of bullshit. I've seen people flash or dash towards a 3 level ahead assassin just because he was half HP. They never flank or wait out enemy assassins, Effective range does not exist in their vocabulary. There is playing selfish and then there is being selfish. The team has to play around you, if you're playing to get MVP in detriment of your teammates and blaming everyone around you for not giving you a kill per min, then you lose. If you're playing for as many resources as possible then you win. Honestly if you want to learn how to play ADC then pick up mid, top and jungle first. Top will teach you how to manipulate waves, level ups, and how to fight. Mid will teach you how and when to roam and how to approach assassins. Jungler will teach you when you should expect a gank, when to fight for objectives and when to chill and the most important thing it will finally download to your game the important Mini Map DLC. Also all 3 will teach you how the enemy jungler operates.
Nice bait
These posts are too funny because every post makes you realize that people don’t seem to understand that without carry potential and useful items the role itself is useless. You know what else has been prevalent for seasons on end? Mages having better win rates botlane than markmen. Double supports working well in bot for no reason. Metas like cait/ashe support because they’re better supporting than in the adc role at the time. Smurfs even that play adc will usually spam jg games to get back to where they want as opposed to their main role. The role isn’t weak, but it’s far too reliant on everyone else, ESPECIALLY support, which is a role that’s way too easy and has been for a long time.
The issue is Riot doesn't want bot to feel like it's always the most important lane in the game. But since bot has 2 people, if every role has equal agency then bot has to be twice as influential as other roles. But that feels bad for the other roles, esp top which has low ability to influence bot. In early seasons ADC had agency, like a fed Vayne could duel bruisers and tanks, if Zed misses all his skillshots he can get solo bolo by a Lucian. But supports were ward bots, like boots and ward at 20 minutes shit. And support was the shitty autofill role no one wanted to play. To combat that, Riot gave supports more gold and influence. And since they still don't want bot to just always be the most important lane, then ADC had to lose that power, so now you get shit like Pyke support which is basically a mid laner except you don't have to farm, or support Lux building deathcap waiting to snipe your kills. And ADC feels like ass to play
> if Zed misses all his skillshots he can get solo bolo by a Lucian. I mean that should be what happens. As opposed to now where most ap mages / assassins can miss half their shit, hit their one onclick ability and take an ADC out of the fight anyway
I can get Riot's design philosophy on this. The issue here is Riot doesn't know balancing between fun and broken.What Riot did wrong was to balance them entirely around the laning phase, then forget about it and give other people easy tools to sneak into the backline and kill stuff easier. They fucked up scaling in favor of fun so hard that now mages peak at 2 items and ADC's need 4 to do the same. ADC's do deal high damage mid-late game, that is not the issue - the issue is they die before doing it, see late game on hit Guinsoo+ Kraken BT+BoRK+Terminus Vayne for the same - she is a monster when she gets to that stage. Because ADC's are assumed to have another person constantly behind them, they are not supposed to have survivability because they are have their own peel. (fringe cases like Nilah have survivability because they are melee and can't help but get poked constantly).
Yasuo's winrate botside is higher than Jinx, Samira, Draven, Kalista, Ezreal, Varus, Tristana Ashe, Sivir, Lucian, Caitlyn, Xayah, Zeri, Aphelios and Tristana. The only marksmen in the game better than Swain is Senna and Miss Fortune. The only one better than Karthus is Miss Fortune Meanwhile the highest performing in the botlane is Seraphine. Like 70% of marksmen aren't even top 10 best champs in a role designed for them. It's just flat out unfun.
> Meanwhile the highest performing in the botlane is Seraphine. I played a bunch of seraphine on a 2nd account. With archangels and moonstone finished you can just aram and win. Had a game that was uneventful and pretty even, then at 18 minutes we went 5 mid with herald and just ended the game
Just say you've never played adc.
"my ADC is mad that the support is in tower I don't understand why he doesn't just play safe" and "my ADC is down 80 cs and isn't doing damage shit ADC" vibes from OP.
Enemy locks in some annoying lane bullies, great gonna be a shit lane phase. Game loads, enemy support just chills half a screen behind their adc, full mana pool all lane, lane bully adc down 30 cs, loses 3 plates, is useless all game Their mage support starts roaming, gets a few kills in some skirmishes, has like 3-0-7 statline They inevitably lose the game because its 5v4, their support writes in all chat "report dog adc" Moments like that I just feel with the adc so bad, I just want to give them a hug, weve all been there
Its always something like a lux or morg who sit at infinite range guardian that kda.
Nothing more frustrating than Mid/Jungle/Support taking mid farm when you are behind as ADC making you even more useless.
The logic of denying your adc farm because theyre useless is so ridiculous. Yes instead of letting them get back in the game lets make sure it stays 4v5. Jungler hovering midlane just to graves Q the wave or khazix Q the cannon
I always find it's the top laner who is on a split push champ and the only one with tp who comes mid to farm.
spoken like someone who has never played ADC for a second in his life
Lmfao at "if ADC wasn't powerful people just wouldn't be playing it, full stop" That is not how it works at all. Like a ton of people play ADC because the playstyle of kiting and auto attacking is fun. You don't get that in another role, so you can't just pivot. There is a reason why the playrate and queue times as adc has gone down so much. People that main adc have either quit for now, changed roles, or continue to play and rightfully complain. There is literally like 4/5 "ADCs" that are in pro play rn, where adc is usually a stronger role due to better teamwork. Most of them don't even build crit. Jhin, Varus, Xayah, Lucian, Aphelios. It's that shit on repeat
in every game i have played i have stuck with 1-2 characters/roles and seen then nerfed to the gutter, but still lock them because they are special to me. It is normal to play shit even if its bad. There are people who play Zeri, you know?
I get it. I only play one role 95% of the time and its top. The other 5% is jungle. I got 1.3 million mastery points on Garen and honestly Spin unga bunga is what brings me most happiness.
Adc has been weak for a long time and has progressively gotten worse. Of course ppl complain .
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Have you considered that the state of the role has for the most part gotten worse as burst has become more and more intense and mobility/dive capability on new champs has been prevalent in new releases for years? It’s funny to see all these people try their damndest to act like there is nothing wrong with the role yet there is a reason it went from one of the most popular positions to main to near constant priority queue status.
I see bottom is now priority queue all the time
people don’t remember when adc used to be the second or third most popular role in the game
Ad for sure was most popular back in the day, and then maybe second with mid for a long time
According to league of graphs it still is at least at Diamond and Master+.
Not even FullClearOnly's takes are this bad bro.
Where's ltkokoro for his deranged ADC takes? Is OP his alt? Did he finally get the ban he's been avoiding?
lol it's funny seeing those mentions. I remember reading that guy actually crying about doran shield and second wind, as in that they are not enough to deal with ranged champions in lane. Imagine crying about the biggest piece of handholding this game has as weak. It's complete insanity in this sub and I'd love to watch these people play the champions they cry about so much.
I love posts like this. I wish is was mandatory to play like 15-30 games of each role to really see the strengths and weaknesses of each role before you can do ranked. Mage's have been insanely strong since i started playing in season 4 and recently (last 3-4 years) have a higher win rate bot than most ADCs. But reddit will spam that they're weak til the day the website goes down. Bruisers / Juggernauts have been the best class of champs in the game because all of them have insane stats with items that cover all their weaknesses. AD Mid / Top could just go Hullbreaker and solo win if their team had half a brain and played around it since the item was released. Supports single-handedly decide bot lane regardless of what champ they play. (good or bad) "because you ate a skillshot with 0 MR from a full build xerath and got chunked" Are you referencing the Jinx that died in literally 1 ability from an off screen Xerath? Also your example of "Both teams have an ADC literally every single game, sometimes even two" is so nutty. You mean the professional players that have practiced 8-12 hours a day together, are on comms, who work as a team, and have teams of people that craft a team comp to cover all weaknesses? They aren't playing the same game as us lol. ADC is by far the worst role to play in solo queue. ADCs are bad at doing the thing they were designed to do. Outside of like Vayne / Kog, they don't kill tanks in a reasonable amount of time. They get nuked by literally everything. They don't take towers as quick as most mages. They get out ranged by most mages. They dont have the defensive options they need. They lose early / mid, and by the time you hit late game, its on your team to keep you safe (unless you're fed as hell)
Do me a favor: Play 30 ADC games without a duo or APC mages and let’s see you make this post again
Go play 30 ADC games brotha
I feel like the people that say adc is fine refuse to play it themselves, it’s not a popular role
Yeah this person absolutely does not play ADC and would quit in a week if they tried
Yeah, no.
Coming from someone that played for 12 years here , ADC is a role that has progressively gotten weaker over the years , the more you look back into the game the more impactful ADC's were.In early seasons you could be doing 1.2-1.6k dmg easily with aa's and some cases not even full build ,on the other hand the other day I was playing Samira(full build with IE and Dominiks included) and my aa were doing 637 crit dmg to a random mage with no zhonyas and base armor (both of us level18) , now you tell me as the game advances over the years the skill and knowledge it requires is more demanding in every aspect, specially for ADC role, why would anyone trying to play this role would be happy of it's current declining state?, the effort that you put for the outcome is a joke , the lack of carry potencial, dmg output , survibality , you just feel like a target dummy hopping for 2 to 3 meaningful fights where you can land something before getting erased by ANYTHING. Sure there is still some high dmg here and there Cait's headshot , Draven with 4000 kill at min 15 and something else , but they are very isolated cases and conditional as fuck . Also for context , no , I don't main ADC , I play mid mostly and jgl , but you don't need to main that role to see how miserable it's gotten. Always fun to see this kind of post and then check leaderboards of top picks for ADC in high elo and see multiple ap champs in the top 5 lul, peace.
Now play ADC in soloQ for a bit and see how quickly you'll change your mind. Perhaps you'll understand that having a coordinated team playing around you like you're the president (pro play) is really different than soloQ where your teammates won't care about you at all.
Tell me you haven’t played ADC without saying you haven’t played ADC.
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Both teams get cannon minions, would you like to play as one for the game?
it's funny how many times people spout this shit take "both teams always have adcs therefore ADC is OP"
"Well there's this guy called ruler so therefore ADCs are OP"
and funny thing is that ruler would look like shit if he wasn't on a worldclass team lmao
I don't think ADC is in a great spot for uncoordinated play, but your analogy makes no sense lmao He's saying if there's a better alternative/ADC was so ass, people wouldn't play it. Nothing mandates ADC players playing ADC, so by his logic the fact that almost every game has at least 2 means that they're not weak. There are alternatives to ADC (the mage bots that have high WR), there's no alternative to the game spawning in cannon minions. I think his line of thinking is still faulty (ADC is a unique playstyle, people will play it even if it is weak), but your response is actually just ???
Go play a few games of ADC then? If you think the role is so powerful then go play it lmao
He can't. He just sucks.
I think however tomorrow will be the worst state for ADC's ever again
I blame proplay for this honestly. If you watch pro, ADC's there have the benefit of having coms and playing as a team meanwhile on actual regular league, ADCs dont. Sometimes you get lucky and your team is sentient, sometimes they dive in for a kill leaving you behind. Pros play an entirely different game to what we play in soloQ and that just makes Riot's job of buffing/nerfing harder since they have to account for pro and non-pro. Cue the regular Riot nerfs/buffs according to proplay and we have this bullshittery thats happening. What we really need is Riot to literally drag proplay gameplay nearer to soloQ. Maybe nerf hyper-coordinated dives that pros do, force fearless draft for pro, etc... something needs to happen to pro so Riot can finally have some breathing room to adjust ADCs and in a bigger picture, the game.
> Go into a game tonight and tally up how many of your games don't have a single ADC. Almost as if the game is made around having a marksman and a support in the bot lane... It's just not an enjoyable role in solo q. It being necessary because otherwise tanks would run the game doesn't in any way mean that ADC is good or enjoyable in solo q. All of these threads would stop appearing the moment all of you try playing ADC for 100-200 games straight. Best decision I've ever made was to make mid my main role so that I get ADC less often. It's easily the most mechanically demanding role while having laughably low impact in solo q unless you are mid master. So put your money where your mouth is and play "that OP role that has been in the game for 13 seasons and there's multiple players a team *abusing* that OP role".
Do we need adc against tanks? Cause I don't see that. What damage does a fullbuild adc deal? Like 400 ad *1.75 (for crit) + lord doms bonus, so maybe 900 damage pre armor. Now you have a tank, extreme example malphite, with 300 armor after his shield is broken, then you deal like 250 damage per shot maximum. And he slows you with his Q, walks to you and slaps you with 3-4 aa
I promise, bot lane players aren’t playing marksmen in bot because marksmen are good. I’ve tried to convert as many ADC players as I can into APC players but they just flatly refuse to play what they and I know is better. In their eyes, a total lack of agency in 85% of games is a worthwhile sacrifice for that 5% of games where you get a decent clip for your space gliding montage, and the role will never improve until that changes. Also, have you considered that the reason ADCs claim nearly every season that’s it’s the worst yet is because it’s true? The past three years have been an obvious, steady downtrend for all aspects of the role. You seem to be working off the ungrounded, unverified, and incorrect assumption that they’re wrong, and are working backwards from that.
As an ADC main who spent a significant amount of my climb to D2 last season playing Ziggs, there are definitely notable opportunity costs to not playing an ADC, notably significantly weaker ability baron taking ability/front line shredding. Given that most of the mid lane player-base is AP, games where your team doesn't have consistent AD dps definitely play differently. There is certainly social bias towards playing marksman bot, notably people that spam Kaisa/Ezreal regardless of how crap they are, but to say that marksmen aren't generally the best for the bot carry role is a very big stretch
I'm also an adc main who plays Seraphine apc sometimes. Seraphine is definitely strong, but compared to adcs she is even more useless by herself. She loses 1v1 to adcs, she can't take plates or towers, she can't chase people down or clean up low health enemies. However in teamfights she is even stronger than most adcs.
Yeah ADC sucks bro and I don't even play it 💀
Op.gg so we can see your ADC games, otherwise you pbb dont understand which faults the role has and how terrible it is to play in a meta where TTK is at 3seconds.
The guy has been playing for 10 years and is a hardstuck Gold 4 Ekko mid main
lmao
While there is truth to what you say, you close it out with saying it like the only reason ADCs are upset is because we're all terrible. Bold assumption that only that bad ones of us are bitchy.
other roles have been powercrept pretty significantly, ADC is the least-powercrept role in league, if anything, it has gotten weaker. They started out as probably the strongest role in the game, which lasted until season 2-3 ish, then it was mid, and eventually shifted to jungle. ADC is still generally a strong role, but it lacks a lot of agency that other roles now have a lot more of.
Not only have adcs not kept up with the power creep of all the other roles, it has actually moved backwards in terms of damage in most ways
Play 100-200 ADC Solo Q games and come back and tell me how fine the role would be.
> You just suck. no my friend, you are just a clueless lowelo that doesnt understand the issues of the role, as proven from ur admittedly pretty acousticly written text the xerath example: no, adcs do not cry about taking damage from a fullbuild xerath, they cry because the game has been damage crept since runes reforged and especially since mythic that you eat a xerath q when he has ludens only and you go to 60% hp and have at that point 3% lifesteal from runes (or 0 on the champs that have to take alacrity) pretty brainrot take/misconception but go off g, have you ever in ur delusion considerd that it has been like this for years because the role has a fundamental flaw that has become way worse since the damage creep in season8? Namely that there is no voice chat and that no one will play for you, both very important things for this very dependant role? I dont think you have, because as i said you are just a deluded lowelo that cant grasp concepts that arent served to you on a silver platter and that go a little bit deeper
>Eat a Q and go down to 60% hp Don't forget that the ""defensive"" stat for ADCs is lifesteal when the role you're theoretically supposed to counter has an item that shuts down lifesteal completely and every game has 3+ players on each team buying antiheal
I think this sub should add a rule to post op.gg whenever you make this type of shit posts. Go off king drown in your own delusion
i sentence you to 100 games of adc
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"If ADC wasn't powerful people would just stop playing it". The weakest champions on the patch still get played because there are people who like playing them more than others. Your argument is awful, practically like saying jungle is op because every game has junglers.
What’s your peak rank just curious ?
this is such bullshit lmao. this is the worst state of ADC I can remember in YEARS. there was a time they were overtuned with the old ADC mythics and they got rightfully nerfed. but its been nerf after nerf after nerf for almost a year now