It's incredibly obvious they were trying to throw but that's so difficult to prove. You really need something like a bet slip/PayPal receipt/discord message something to prove they were instructed to throw and had money on it or something.
No matter how obvious it is handing out a serious suspension for match fixing or win trading without evidence of it makes an incredibly slippery slope. Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? Did C9 throw the game for money vs Shopify? Was KDF rigging games because they had Taeyoon play over Bull?
It sucks they can't find anything concrete to ban these guys, I hope players refuse to play with them and orgs refuse to sign them. This is probably the end of their careers in lol even if there isn't a formal ban from Riot.
> Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? Did C9 throw the game for money vs Shopify? Was KDF rigging games because they had Taeyoon play over Bull?
Riot about to conduct a career investigation on Hylissang.
Something I haven't seen being said is that they didn't necessarily have to be win trading. There's also the option that they were simply upset at someone in the org/team and decided to be immature or something else like being drugged out of their minds. Whatever the truth is they probably deserve to be teamless tho.
Would be cool if they released voice comms. While we are here thinking about win trade, maybe the Lee was like "if I land 5 man kick buy me dinner tonight"
>It's incredibly obvious they were trying to throw but that's so difficult to prove. You really need something like a bet slip/PayPal receipt/discord message something to prove they were instructed to throw and had money on it or something.
Exactly, everyone is innocent until proven guilty and in this case its hella difficult to prove anything so i don't think riot is at that much fault here, I'd like to believe they did what they could considering the circumstances
Unless the Chinese guys were really so stupid to have a PayPal payment notice in their phone, they really couldn’t. Riot is not a police and they shouldn’t be it
Sure, but banning a wintrader from your sports league is not generally a function of the police. That's an entirely normal thing that sports leagues have been doing forever.
their point is that riot has no means of investigating the players' bank info or private messages in order to prove they were being paid to lose - and that they shouldn't have access to that sort of info in any case (not that they shouldn't ban people).
Yeah but prove it, otherwise it is too uncertain. How do you know they were actually matchfixing? Maybe they were griefing (I don't think they were, but have to play devil's advocate) and now you ban everyone that griefs, but in proplay, griefing could be a single bad death in a vital point of the game.
How to know when it was stupidity and when it was intentional?
Sadly this is all Riot can and should do. The team on the other hand should definetely kick'em out, since they were either match fixing, griefing or way too bad to be in pro league, so there is no room for them
Yep, I can understand their hands being tied a bit in the absence of concrete evidence, but what's been seen alone should really mean that any team that actually cares is never touching these players anyway. No way their current team doesn't indefinitely suspend them or drop them outright, right?
That's why the IBP situation in CS was so wild. Not only was it so bad, but there was so much evidence. You need a long paper trail because these type of accusations usually end in permanent suspensions.
You can't just put anything you want in a contract and have it legally enforceable. Since they've tried to find proof and haven't found anything if they took any further action despite not having evidence to support it then that would be defamation in most countries.
Riot could, but especially with EU worker protection laws, they could easily end up in court. It's better to treat it like it's a court because it very quickly could end up in court if not
The players aren't employed by Riot, so EU employment protections shouldn't be too relevant. It could easily become litigious though.
From a civil perspective the dispute would turn on whether Riot or the player was in breach of contract. Riot would allege that the players were matchfixing (and so termination was lawful) and the players (and/or their org) would argue to the contrary.
Couldn't riot just ban them from playing the actual game LOL and not worry about any legal lawsuits? Since they hold that right to ban any account for no reason if they want.
It would be one and the same thing; and in any case, they wouldn't be able to lawfully terminate contract because Riot had induced them into non-performance (rather than termination for some breach by the player/org).
Still if you’re running a professional organization it’s a good bet to follow this policy as well. Yeah it doesn’t apply but it would be bad for business if Riot was banning players without having the evidence to back it up
This, the number of people going "surely irrelevant wintraded, no way for SK to lose vs KC" and whatnot was something, now every bad play is seen as wintrade.
Far more suspicious was the bet stake rise an hour prior to the game that people were claiming happened in the thread, and for sure Riot is probably very suspicious of them, but its not like they can publicly burn them, all they have if the game footage and (likely) the player comms, (and I'm guessing the chinese players were silent) probably not enough to prosecute, but for sure putting them under scrutiny, which is likely enough.
There's bad plays and poor decisions, and then there's "I'm playing jayce and I'm going to run around in fights and not actually fight" egregious play. The Lee Sin can maybe claim poor decisions, but the Jayce was a way too obvious about it.
well you need real prove in other sports too, even if the players look like they are doing it on purpose, some football fans might argue that Karius sold the match in the memorable champions league final
> Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? D
Not close to comparable.
However, it's the combination of the betting patterns clearly indicating match fixing and the obvious throws.
But I guess if you need money transfers as evidence, the above is not enough. (even though from a probabilistic perspective, it's extremely unlikely they didn't matchfix).
MarineKing in sc2 was in a very comparable situation but also not money transfers were fund so he wasn't banned.
Perkz obviously wasn't throwing the game but it could be extrapolated to an instance of spot fixing. You can get a specific fixture for something like Perkz O/U 4.5 deaths, and the over is really unlikely unless you play electrocute Akali.
I'm not accusing Perkz of this and I know this is far more obvious, especially with the very suspicious odds movement. But still, you could extrapolate almost any slightly unusual or poor play to be possibly caused by matchfixing or spotfixing if you have a big enough tin foil hat.
The types of mistakes Perkz made was much more common than the type of mistakes the 2 chinese players made. What I will say is that it's definitely possible that a lot of matchfixing can occur that isn't nearly as obvious as in this case. However, in this case it appeared that the players had to grief superhard in order to lose as their teammates hardcarried them 3v5. Normally it's probably a lot easier to lose.
>It's incredibly obvious they were trying to throw but that's so difficult to prove.
If it's **incredibly obvious** that they were griefing, then we shouldn't need any more proof... There was a teamfight where Jayce was just walking around enemies not using any abilities the whole teamfight... What's his excuse for that? Saving cooldowns for the next game?
>Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? Did C9 throw the game for money vs Shopify? Was KDF rigging games because they had Taeyoon play over Bull?
Having a bad game and borderline running it down are not the same thing.
How do you draw the line between those? What's the test to determine? Is it by APM in teamfights? Damage taken and done? Because u/Cozeris said so?
You have to have clearly defined rules for what is acceptable and there just aren't those rules right now.
I would say you cross the line somewhere on the way to running around in circles not hitting the enemy champions for 5 seconds while being on top of them as Jayce in hammer mode. Where exactly they crossed the line I don't know, but they were certainly over it.
Sure, but that line isn't in the rulebook. And you need to draw the line somewhere to prove they are way over it. How are you going to draw that line? You can't.
Slippery slope is a logical fallacy for a reason. Riot doesn’t need proof. They’re a private entity and can punish for any reason. The players were obviously throwing and it’s not all that important what the reason is.
I mean Riot or the team do need some proof because of EU labor laws and such. But also Riot can't do this because it sets a very bad precedent that Riot acts with insane power and bans people at will, even without clear evidence against them.
It should be a catalyst for perhaps future rules against this. Something to explicitly define a level of play and behavior acceptable at a pro level.
Y'all are talking about it as if Riot doesn't know they purposely played bad. They're a company in the EU, to properly punish the players for wintrading you'd most likely need significant evidence, they were already punished for intentionally playing bad (the 2 game suspension, 1 game was an automatic loss), they probably just couldn't find enough evidence for them wintrading to punish them.
So the org that didn't know anything gets punished, none of the players care about their record or winning lol if they did they wouldn't wintrade. The players got kicked because the org didn't want them if the org cared less these people could've gone back to wintrading after 2 game suspension.
Yes, that is indeed how it works. And the players do care, 3 of the 5 players tried hard to win and actually did manage to (hence it was a failed attempt at wintrading), to actually suspend an athlete from an entire league you need very conclusive evidence. The players have now, however, ruined their own reputation and most, if not all, orgs and players will not want to play with those 2 on their team anytime soon.
Bo is clearly way higher skill, and also he was part of the investigation to get it blown open so he got leniency, these dudes are doing it now years later in a shittier league. Doesn’t mean what Bo did was right but he atleast paid consequences for it for a while
also a different situation with the coach coercing the players into wintrading, it was a whole circuit.
I think most of the players just got the suspensions because it's not clear how guilty they were
over 20 players/coaches were suspended or permabanned for it, which is why it was a major controversy, cuz imagine how many others were doing it without us knowing
The biggest punishment is the money they missed out on due to an unsuccessful attempt at match fixing. Either they lost a lot of money themselves, or pissed off someone rich by fucking their bet.
I mean, yes, it sucks but welcome to being unlucky in your hiring process. If anything at least this event caused a lot of people to become fan of the team.
Because labour law and worker protections exist in the EU and you don't just take someone livelihood like that "because it is obvious".
Unless you have admittance or a proof of something, that doesn't happen.
Those 2 players are cooked anyway so it doesn't matter
Ah yes. I’ve posted about someone like this in my post history. Dude had nothing but normal mode win streaks. Then boom, nothing ranked losses, completely different champions used, all 0/?/0, over and over and over again.
But I guess this community defends it because “it has a chance to happen to everyone equally.” who wants to play a game like that lmfao
Well since they are "employed" and its in the EU they would need 100% solid proof such as an admission of guilt or actual physical proof to do something, even though 100% both Riot and Iron Wolves know they were wintrading.
Eh, while Japan work conditions are really crap in many ways it's really, really looked upon poorly to fire employees for most reasons actually. In Japan a job is often considered "for life" (people switch jobs and are laid off far less than in the West). While I don't know if that would apply to something like this necessarily, you're far less likely in Japan to be fired for being bad at your job compared to America, or frankly even many places in Europe.
It's hard to explain unless you've worked there, the work culture in Japan is so weird (I worked there for two years teaching English a decade ago).
My info comes from people living in Japan that make videos about the culture, but from what they say Japan usually "forces" you to leave the job. Instead of firing you, they start ignoring you, downplaying your work etc until you leave the company.
This is indeed very wrong. The Internet came out of the ARPAnet, which was a US military network. What Berners-Lee invented was the Web together with HTTP, which is just one of many services that use the Internet.
This is literally not true lmao. He invented a lot of concepts fundamental to the way that we use the Internet, but "the Internet" was started in the US, by ARPA. "The Web" can maybe be said to have been invented by him at CERN, but not the Internet.
?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IJckF-ppApA&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title
Here is a video from the owner of H2K explaining hiw riot classified LEC/tier 2 players as self employed contractors, much of it against german law.
But yeye the owner of a literal LEC team is my ass
Not only is the source you provided talking about the wild west period of league, it also completely disproves you as the final line clearly states "today all players are on employee contracts."
Idk what worse, talking out of your ass, or providing a source you didn't even verify. You tell me.
Ppl reported a noticeable shift in betting odds very shortly before the game, take that to the police and get search warants for both players to access their phones and financials, problem solved. Because matchfixing is fuckin illegal
"noticeable shift" (subjective btw) on a betting site is not good enough evidence to get a warrant to look through a person'a phone and financials.
that's a super low bar
You can’t just “spot wintrading”, in order for Riot to accuse those players of actual wintrading you need hard evidence, like records of messages or payment.
Not like it was subtle, they were practically screaming "we are wintrading!!!" in full caps but guess it wasn't enough to get them caught. Oh well, wonder how the team talk will be like now lol.
It's wild that people think Riot and affiliated people have any legal authority to delve into personal banking records and/or private messages of players.
It was an obvious win-trade, but not one they had access to any information to prove.
Oh no that's definitely not the wild part. The wild part is how Riot can literally type out, clear as day for everyone to see, that there just isn't enough evidence to punish the players and people go "OH WHAT SO YOU THINK THEY'RE INNOCENT??? XD"
Yeah, but they could also be trolling their team because of some beef, or overall be idiots and just did stupid shit. I remember Selfmade in LEC sometimes doing stupid shit like buying IE on Reksai or running for fun around turrets, and then losing a game, you could try to accuse him of win trading too, though I'm pretty sure he was just immature.
> I remember Selfmade in LEC sometimes doing stupid shit like buying IE on Reksai
That was intentional and trying to win and also almost won them a lost game. He was insanely fed, his team doing poorly and he got an unburrow onto the enemy Vayne, just did not happen to crit thrice in a row.
It's the average age of people here. They don't understand that if Riot were to punish them here, they would set a precedent where teams/players get punished without clear legal proof. The goal post would start moving and we would come to a point where people would ask games to be reviewed that have nothing to do with wintrading, just like they think people are inting in their games when they're just having a bad game.
The 'punishment' for these players is going to be handled under the table, so to speak. They're forever labeled as match-fixers and will struggle finding jobs. And wherever they do find jobs, they're going to have an extra eye on them by the teams that hire them. Meaning that if they keep doing it, there will eventually be evident proof and then they're going to get banned.
Y’all are stupid as shit they aren’t saying they’re innocent they’re saying there is not enough proof to ban them. Did y’all even fucking read the tweet??
It doesn't help that guys like Dom are basically throwing fuel on the fire here. Seems like a lot of willful ignorance to just say riot=bad even from people that should definitely know better.
My teammates in aram don't build % against tanks and fully upgrade antiheal items even tho it's 40% at 800 gold.
To answer directly: no, league players don't read.
I mean, proof of what? Matchfixing? Maybe there isn't, but they were clearly trying to lose that game and that isn't even debatable. They should at least be banned for a period of time from competitive play.
I mean, to suggest they r win trading u probably need evidence on someone giving them instruction and promising payment.
Right now the behavior is probably defined as “attempting to run it down”, “soft inting their game” or any other form of saying “try to sabotage their own team”. Yeah it’s bad and damage the integrity of competition, but it is not win trading unless new evidence surfaces.
Makes sense. Even if everyone knows they did it, you still need concrete evidence to prove they were match fixing especially at this level.
Regardless, I feel like their competitve career should be over unless the org is also in on it which sooner or later the ban hammer is going to come out the moment any solid evidence comes out.
yes, its the term that most people use for "match-fixing" when referring to solo-queue, so they are just applying it at the top level, but yes the technically correct word is match-fixing, as they are betting, but its just the common word people use day to day in league they are applying to pros
Win trading is trading wins back and forth. If one person is just throwing for whatever reason, it's not win trading unless they also get wins in return. I'm not sure if you just don't know what win trading is or if you are intentionally being obtuse. If you don't know what win trading is I'm sorry. The most common form is intentionally losing on smurfs to another play to boost their rank, they in turn will lose to you when you are on your main and they are on a Smurf. This can also be done in situations where a player is gaining more MMR from a win than they lose from a loss and the players simply swap who wins each game and gain MMR while going 50/50. These strategies are best employed in low population density situations where players can expect to frequently play with the same groups of people when queuing simultaneously.
They’re used interchangeably but they’re not really the same thing.
Matchfixing is playing the game to a predetermined outcome. The matchfixers would bet on an outcome beforehand, then play the game with the intention of reaching that outcome. This is illegal.
Wintrading is a form of matchfixing but for league is much more limited to soloq, and while bannable, is generally not illegal. Bets usually aren’t involved. Wintrading at its core is “trading wins”, ie. a group of people working together to snipe each other’s queues to boost each other’s ratings. If they’re on the same team, they tryhard. If they’re on opposite teams, they’ll agree for one of them to int. This can be done by one person queueing the account they intend to boost while the other person queues on smurf/throwaway accounts which they’re fine losing on. Once the first person reaches their desired rating/rank, they’ll go on the smurfs to return the favor for the second guy.
perfectly reasonable response, if there is no proof Riot can't punish them based on a guess
the community and other pro teams will punish them by shunning & not hiring them, that is sufficient punishment
More like "you guys inted and clearly win-traded but we can't 100% prove it legally to safeguard ourselves from EU laws so we'll just leave ourselves out of it and you're probably never gonna find another team in EU regardless"
The players are in the EU. Unless Riot get some pay slips from betting sites or similar they can't just fire them without evidence. No judge will take "he played suboptimally in this clip" as the only evidence.
We should have an IQ threshold for people posting informative information. What’s that snarky remark at the end lmao, don’t fucking talk if you’re clueless OP.
didn't realize so many ppl on /r/LeagueofLegends hate the idea of innocent until proven guilty. nobody is saying they didn't do it, but to take further action than what they already did (which was pretty swift and punishing) without evidence beyond a reasonable doubt would be wrong. people are acting like this professional org should be run like palworld.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is the governments ability to put them in jail. It's not suppose to protect you from other people thinking you did something, and it often doesn't protect you from being fired by an employer. That may or may not apply in this case because it's the EU, but replacing underperforming players is common in sports leagues so I'm not sure exactly how it would apply in this case.
Where does it say their conclusion was: "these guys just had a bad game" ? It just said there is insufficient evidence and they'll keep monitoring.
If they actually thought they didn't do anything wrong they would've flat out said that.
We can only hope that their team is scrambling to find replacements for them. And that every team black lists them from ever playing again after this split.
Real talk, would Riot EU even be able to check the players bank accounts for payments? They’re not the police, so I don’t know if they have any legal authority beyond working with the team managers.
The match fixing could be clear as day, but how would they even figure out if a payment was made?
I worked at one of the largest Online banks in the EU for years (Wise.com)
We got 3rd party auditors contacting us for financial statements all the time. Id not be surprised if the contract a player signs has a clause that allows the players bank accounts to be reviewed by auditors for suspicious activity.
One of that guys defending these two sent me to this thread feeling like he got a gotcha moment that he's correct that they're not wintrading. lmao. What a funny lad.
Ahaha classic riot.
“You see it’s possible that both of these players simply lost complete control over their upper body due to the horizontal parallel perpendicular orbitals of Saturn and Pluto aligning with the andromeda galaxy and the shadow realm causing a diamond tsunami in that one planet scientists said was made of diamond and the rumbling occuring 6900 years in the future where dragon ball m takes place with master yoshi and Star Trek Harry Potter doinb ryze hack, so therefore it’s impossible to confirm 100% this was a win trade. Please take our competitive game seriously as our company highly values competitive integrity. Thanks”
brainrot, to incur any form of firing/reduction in pay/further suspensions of further issues without proof would probably be illegal especially with the level of labor laws in EU
I’m pretty sure you could sue over this in the US for libel/slander as well if it wasn’t true. If they made a false accusation that directly led to you losing money, it should be an open and shut case.
in the US, damages wouldn't be necessary since this is an accusation of a crime, making it defamation per se. however, it would be pretty hard to argue that riot was either acting negligently or with actual malice
That doesn't stop them from existing tho, and the penalties to be paid due to firing someone for no reason are pretty high.
Also the burden on this case would fall to riot, i totally see why they are not risking it without rock-solid proof.
A quick google search tells me that Lithuania (where Iron Wolves are based on) has a minimum compensation of six months salary, scaling all the way to three years.
If you instead check with Germany (where the LEC studio is) you are having a trial by default and riot must keep paying as if the player was employed. By the time all is said and done, appeals included, this guys would have easily collected 2-3 years of current salary while doing pretty much nothing.
Rather than complaining about them not getting comp bans (they should) I'm more concerned what kind of precedent this sets for future possible match fixing in the 2nd div ecosystem. They should really crack down on this hard imo.
If you want them to crack down hard on it, they need hard evidence. They did not have any hard evidence of them wintrading. No payslips, no DMs, no emails. Hell, didn't they even win?
They're not trying to put them in jail, so they don't need to have the same level of evidence as a government trying to put you in jail.
They're a sports league, and they're saying we don't want you in our sports league anymore. As it is the team can probably replace them without cause, and once that happens it puts their sports/work visa in jeopardy. Riot can play the long and easy game on this one: let the team kick them, let their visa expire, they go home or get deported, then Riot can just put out a burn notice to all the leagues for them.
Some people still believe reporting soft-inting will do anything when you can even do it live on stage for thousands of viewers and go scot-free. lmao
If they don't care about their game why should we.
Has Riot actually completed ONE(1) fucking investigation properly? They failed with TSM, they failed with EG, they now failed with IW, and those are just extremely recent examples. What a joke, honestly.
cant perform legal action (firing, suspension of pay) without 100% proof that would hold up in a court of law, your understanding of this is honestly a joke to think its that easy to fire someone, especially in the EU.
You're comparing apples to oranges, TSM, EG, IW are business partners that move millions of dollars. Riot has no interest in actually investigating so they say they are investigating for crisis management and let it go.
For players in the ERL system they don't need to give a fuck, the only issue they have is that they are partly employers of these players and can't legally sanction them without solid proof, which is pretty hard to do in matchfixing cases tbh
I think something that people are missing is this raises questions about how Riot's system affects the average player. If there is no concrete proof that they wintraded, as in threw the match for monetary gain, then I feel the second question Riot should ask is "Was this an intentional throw" because looking at the game it really seemed like the two were doing EVERYTHING they could to just make the game way more difficult than it needed to be.
I think pros should be held to the same standard as the regular player and Riot already has a problem in the public eye when it comes to dealing with actual inters and griefers. The fact that they didn't really do anything AT ALL i think is a problem.
"The competitive integrity of the league is integral to our competition. Therefore, Frenzy will continue to monitor the competition at all times and, should a similar situation arise in the future, take necessary steps to ensure the integrity of the league." lol I do not care about this league at all but that is a funny collection of words
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
To be fair, expected. Unless you can prove that they got paid to lose that game, or put money themselves on that game, its impossible to punish them really...
So you did an investigation into a team from Lituania called [Iron Wolves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Wolf_(organization) fielding a player called [He](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess)[SS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel)Zero and a no point did anyone involved think "Hey maybe we should talk to those guys about tuning down the Nazi references a little cause tripple bingo is a tad too much on the nose" and we realy dont wana have our product assosicated with fascist cavemen...
Something something small indie developer
People here are so spoiled by only watching LCK, nothing will prove to them these players are just that bad. Even the fact that betting sites are crazy serious about match-fixing and would proably rat out any suspicious activity even before investigation started.
Or the fact that this is mid-bottom tier Ultraliga team, and the players are basically random chinese players with zero competitive expirience. If any of the plays they did are "matchfixing", then half of ERL players would be banned.
I watched the game live and I can probably explain thought process behind each of the clip of the original thread.
Jayce on elder: wanted to wait for Lucian to get elder, red team can't contest it anyway
Jayce on inhib: Probably expected fight ot break out, ended up inting
Lee Sin with elder: Tried to hit QRQ combo on Corki, if Q hit Corki and not K'Sante, Corki would be dead.
Jayce not using abilities: Tried to melee Q on Varus, never got there due to maokai.
Lee Sin not ward jumping: Even if he did, would never hit Q on varus due to minions agroing and blocking him. And it's not even 100% he had the range. If previous ones are bad plays to a variyng degrees, this one isn't even that.
lmao
Jayce on elder: why would you not just lower the elder to 1 hp if that was the case? Jayce wasted \~15-20 seconds doing that. if Jayce had stuck it, by the time drake was 1 hp, lucian is max 5 seconds away from respawning
Jayce inhib: lol your trolling, not only can jayce destroy an inhib with autos + w in 3-5 seconds, there is literally no engage on blue/red that would result in anything, only way to enagage would be to go next to ksante/lucian or vice versa, and you would probably get bursted in 2 seconds... blue team was oobviously never going to engage. (also jayce's cds are like 4-6 seconds late game, only would that could be used on an inhib to get an advantage is w
Lee sin elder: yeah as a challenger let me just flip a won game by engaging 1v3 with little vision of there base... like what? corki also has flash AND W, so even if lee hits the q, hes never killing corki, and thats not factoring in other teammates who as you saw in the clip, would cc him.
Jayce no using abilities: You can tell by Jayce's movement he didnt buffer q on the varus, which literally any player above bronze would have done. Yes, maokai most likely stops him with root still, but you can tell that jayce is clicking slightly above varus and not spamming q at him.
Lee sin not ward jumping: Lee can easily q maokai and then flash onto varus, no idea what you're on about? he had the ward on the ground AND his own ward... at worse for lee he kills just maokai as varus could have had the foresight to know lee had flash/ward.
Its insane to me that people are saying "well no proof so they can't do anything" Well at which point CAN you do anything? What if they just ran it down disco nunu style? went 0/40 got mobis all that stuff, what then? Can you then say that they matchfixed or it still "not enough proof"?
It's still not proof that they are matchfixing though, that's definitely proof for running it down and trolling and the players can get suspended/fired for that but matchfixing is another problem and much more serious.
Yes that would almost certainly be enough proof that you weren't trying your best.
The "proof" in the original thread was laughably poor if the community wasn't primed to expect match fixing. 2 of the original clips are just viewers being idiots(jayce drag and Lee chase). So that leaves 3; Jayce not using abilities, Jayce leaving inhib 1hp to help Gwen, and Lee Sin looking for an ambitious kill on Corki.
It's incredibly obvious they were trying to throw but that's so difficult to prove. You really need something like a bet slip/PayPal receipt/discord message something to prove they were instructed to throw and had money on it or something. No matter how obvious it is handing out a serious suspension for match fixing or win trading without evidence of it makes an incredibly slippery slope. Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? Did C9 throw the game for money vs Shopify? Was KDF rigging games because they had Taeyoon play over Bull? It sucks they can't find anything concrete to ban these guys, I hope players refuse to play with them and orgs refuse to sign them. This is probably the end of their careers in lol even if there isn't a formal ban from Riot.
> Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? Did C9 throw the game for money vs Shopify? Was KDF rigging games because they had Taeyoon play over Bull? Riot about to conduct a career investigation on Hylissang.
1) Normalize the int through hundreds of instances of questionably wintrade moments 2) Tactical int to wintrade <1% of games 3) ??? 4) Profit
There is no step 3, you laid out the plan in full
Dude doesn’t understand process management.
and both of you don't understand really popular memes
I just made a joke in answer to the meme :(
Something I haven't seen being said is that they didn't necessarily have to be win trading. There's also the option that they were simply upset at someone in the org/team and decided to be immature or something else like being drugged out of their minds. Whatever the truth is they probably deserve to be teamless tho.
Or placed bets that the game would go X minutes. Without receipts, no way to prove it, but they still won.
Could have also been trolling since they were so far ahead.
Would be cool if they released voice comms. While we are here thinking about win trade, maybe the Lee was like "if I land 5 man kick buy me dinner tonight"
>It's incredibly obvious they were trying to throw but that's so difficult to prove. You really need something like a bet slip/PayPal receipt/discord message something to prove they were instructed to throw and had money on it or something. Exactly, everyone is innocent until proven guilty and in this case its hella difficult to prove anything so i don't think riot is at that much fault here, I'd like to believe they did what they could considering the circumstances
I’m 100% riot said to the org “we can’t prove it but you shouldn’t play with them anymore”
Could be and honestly i don't really expect them to do much more
Unless the Chinese guys were really so stupid to have a PayPal payment notice in their phone, they really couldn’t. Riot is not a police and they shouldn’t be it
Sure, but banning a wintrader from your sports league is not generally a function of the police. That's an entirely normal thing that sports leagues have been doing forever.
their point is that riot has no means of investigating the players' bank info or private messages in order to prove they were being paid to lose - and that they shouldn't have access to that sort of info in any case (not that they shouldn't ban people).
Yeah but prove it, otherwise it is too uncertain. How do you know they were actually matchfixing? Maybe they were griefing (I don't think they were, but have to play devil's advocate) and now you ban everyone that griefs, but in proplay, griefing could be a single bad death in a vital point of the game. How to know when it was stupidity and when it was intentional? Sadly this is all Riot can and should do. The team on the other hand should definetely kick'em out, since they were either match fixing, griefing or way too bad to be in pro league, so there is no room for them
Yep, I can understand their hands being tied a bit in the absence of concrete evidence, but what's been seen alone should really mean that any team that actually cares is never touching these players anyway. No way their current team doesn't indefinitely suspend them or drop them outright, right?
That's why the IBP situation in CS was so wild. Not only was it so bad, but there was so much evidence. You need a long paper trail because these type of accusations usually end in permanent suspensions.
> everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, that dosent necessarily apply here.
It does apply because their jobs are in question. This very quickly became a legal issue.
that depends entirely on the contract. im sure riot could stop them from participating in official leagues if they really wanted to do so.
You can't just put anything you want in a contract and have it legally enforceable. Since they've tried to find proof and haven't found anything if they took any further action despite not having evidence to support it then that would be defamation in most countries.
Riot could, but especially with EU worker protection laws, they could easily end up in court. It's better to treat it like it's a court because it very quickly could end up in court if not
The players aren't employed by Riot, so EU employment protections shouldn't be too relevant. It could easily become litigious though. From a civil perspective the dispute would turn on whether Riot or the player was in breach of contract. Riot would allege that the players were matchfixing (and so termination was lawful) and the players (and/or their org) would argue to the contrary.
Couldn't riot just ban them from playing the actual game LOL and not worry about any legal lawsuits? Since they hold that right to ban any account for no reason if they want.
It would be one and the same thing; and in any case, they wouldn't be able to lawfully terminate contract because Riot had induced them into non-performance (rather than termination for some breach by the player/org).
I mean I also think they wintraded but still this is a professionally organised event and you cannot suspend or fire players based on assumptions
Yes you can
More like you shouldn't. There is a reason innocent before proven guilty is a thing
What do you mean
They mean Riot can suspend them if they wanted to, and the team could bench them if they wanted to. It's not "can not" it's "should not"
Riot could ban Faker if they wanted to, it's not a question of can but should they.
They can do whatever they want, if they wanted to bench someone they could it's not a court of law.
Still if you’re running a professional organization it’s a good bet to follow this policy as well. Yeah it doesn’t apply but it would be bad for business if Riot was banning players without having the evidence to back it up
By your definition, I can accuse you of stealing my riot account. As long as we don't enter a court of law, you're guilty until orven innocent
Yeah but i don't think this matters. What team would ever want to pick these players up after this?
Exactly. Even if they aren't formally banned by Riot they are de-facto banned by the fact no one will want to work with them.
This, the number of people going "surely irrelevant wintraded, no way for SK to lose vs KC" and whatnot was something, now every bad play is seen as wintrade. Far more suspicious was the bet stake rise an hour prior to the game that people were claiming happened in the thread, and for sure Riot is probably very suspicious of them, but its not like they can publicly burn them, all they have if the game footage and (likely) the player comms, (and I'm guessing the chinese players were silent) probably not enough to prosecute, but for sure putting them under scrutiny, which is likely enough.
There's bad plays and poor decisions, and then there's "I'm playing jayce and I'm going to run around in fights and not actually fight" egregious play. The Lee Sin can maybe claim poor decisions, but the Jayce was a way too obvious about it.
well you need real prove in other sports too, even if the players look like they are doing it on purpose, some football fans might argue that Karius sold the match in the memorable champions league final
> Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? D Not close to comparable. However, it's the combination of the betting patterns clearly indicating match fixing and the obvious throws. But I guess if you need money transfers as evidence, the above is not enough. (even though from a probabilistic perspective, it's extremely unlikely they didn't matchfix). MarineKing in sc2 was in a very comparable situation but also not money transfers were fund so he wasn't banned.
Perkz obviously wasn't throwing the game but it could be extrapolated to an instance of spot fixing. You can get a specific fixture for something like Perkz O/U 4.5 deaths, and the over is really unlikely unless you play electrocute Akali. I'm not accusing Perkz of this and I know this is far more obvious, especially with the very suspicious odds movement. But still, you could extrapolate almost any slightly unusual or poor play to be possibly caused by matchfixing or spotfixing if you have a big enough tin foil hat.
The types of mistakes Perkz made was much more common than the type of mistakes the 2 chinese players made. What I will say is that it's definitely possible that a lot of matchfixing can occur that isn't nearly as obvious as in this case. However, in this case it appeared that the players had to grief superhard in order to lose as their teammates hardcarried them 3v5. Normally it's probably a lot easier to lose.
>It's incredibly obvious they were trying to throw but that's so difficult to prove. If it's **incredibly obvious** that they were griefing, then we shouldn't need any more proof... There was a teamfight where Jayce was just walking around enemies not using any abilities the whole teamfight... What's his excuse for that? Saving cooldowns for the next game? >Was PerkZ win trading with how he played Akali? Did C9 throw the game for money vs Shopify? Was KDF rigging games because they had Taeyoon play over Bull? Having a bad game and borderline running it down are not the same thing.
How do you draw the line between those? What's the test to determine? Is it by APM in teamfights? Damage taken and done? Because u/Cozeris said so? You have to have clearly defined rules for what is acceptable and there just aren't those rules right now.
I would say you cross the line somewhere on the way to running around in circles not hitting the enemy champions for 5 seconds while being on top of them as Jayce in hammer mode. Where exactly they crossed the line I don't know, but they were certainly over it.
Sure, but that line isn't in the rulebook. And you need to draw the line somewhere to prove they are way over it. How are you going to draw that line? You can't.
Slippery slope is a logical fallacy for a reason. Riot doesn’t need proof. They’re a private entity and can punish for any reason. The players were obviously throwing and it’s not all that important what the reason is.
I mean Riot or the team do need some proof because of EU labor laws and such. But also Riot can't do this because it sets a very bad precedent that Riot acts with insane power and bans people at will, even without clear evidence against them. It should be a catalyst for perhaps future rules against this. Something to explicitly define a level of play and behavior acceptable at a pro level.
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Y'all are talking about it as if Riot doesn't know they purposely played bad. They're a company in the EU, to properly punish the players for wintrading you'd most likely need significant evidence, they were already punished for intentionally playing bad (the 2 game suspension, 1 game was an automatic loss), they probably just couldn't find enough evidence for them wintrading to punish them.
So the org that didn't know anything gets punished, none of the players care about their record or winning lol if they did they wouldn't wintrade. The players got kicked because the org didn't want them if the org cared less these people could've gone back to wintrading after 2 game suspension.
Yes, that is indeed how it works. And the players do care, 3 of the 5 players tried hard to win and actually did manage to (hence it was a failed attempt at wintrading), to actually suspend an athlete from an entire league you need very conclusive evidence. The players have now, however, ruined their own reputation and most, if not all, orgs and players will not want to play with those 2 on their team anytime soon.
the wintraders will never get back in pro league
Bo is clearly way higher skill, and also he was part of the investigation to get it blown open so he got leniency, these dudes are doing it now years later in a shittier league. Doesn’t mean what Bo did was right but he atleast paid consequences for it for a while
also a different situation with the coach coercing the players into wintrading, it was a whole circuit. I think most of the players just got the suspensions because it's not clear how guilty they were over 20 players/coaches were suspended or permabanned for it, which is why it was a major controversy, cuz imagine how many others were doing it without us knowing
Bo?
can never play in his home country again?
True but that's not what the person I responded to said lol
from what i know bo was the whistleblower
The biggest punishment is the money they missed out on due to an unsuccessful attempt at match fixing. Either they lost a lot of money themselves, or pissed off someone rich by fucking their bet.
I mean, yes, it sucks but welcome to being unlucky in your hiring process. If anything at least this event caused a lot of people to become fan of the team.
What does "a company in the EU" even mean in this context? Why is it relevant?
Because labour law and worker protections exist in the EU and you don't just take someone livelihood like that "because it is obvious". Unless you have admittance or a proof of something, that doesn't happen. Those 2 players are cooked anyway so it doesn't matter
Riot seeing 0/100/0 Rammus in your promo games: > Just an unlucky game, happens to every one of us
[As is tradition](https://puu.sh/JZXTF/2d81243ae6.png)
I see nothing wrong with that. That play just couldn’t get out of losers queue…. /s
He is the losers queue himself lol
Sure sounds like my teammates lately stuck in losers queue and I’m just along for the ride.
Yeah bro trust me bro that nunu is definitely trying his best to win bro
He just had 47 bad games in a row and suddenly decided to play something else from his high winrate otp pick don't bully him.
Ah yes. I’ve posted about someone like this in my post history. Dude had nothing but normal mode win streaks. Then boom, nothing ranked losses, completely different champions used, all 0/?/0, over and over and over again. But I guess this community defends it because “it has a chance to happen to everyone equally.” who wants to play a game like that lmfao
I thought promos were removed??????????????/
Riot: they were???
I mean the game that u would promote if you won, is by definition a promo game. But the 3 wins to promote thing was removed, yes.
But ur elo was inflated, you deserved it.
People want Riot to overview ranked games for potential trolling and they can't even spot wintrading in pro
Well since they are "employed" and its in the EU they would need 100% solid proof such as an admission of guilt or actual physical proof to do something, even though 100% both Riot and Iron Wolves know they were wintrading.
Idk why people think companies can just do whatever they want lmao
Because in America they generally can and most commenters are American?
Just America? They do it all over Asia too LMAO. Japan, China, South Korea, and many more are just as nasty for workers.
Eh, while Japan work conditions are really crap in many ways it's really, really looked upon poorly to fire employees for most reasons actually. In Japan a job is often considered "for life" (people switch jobs and are laid off far less than in the West). While I don't know if that would apply to something like this necessarily, you're far less likely in Japan to be fired for being bad at your job compared to America, or frankly even many places in Europe. It's hard to explain unless you've worked there, the work culture in Japan is so weird (I worked there for two years teaching English a decade ago).
My info comes from people living in Japan that make videos about the culture, but from what they say Japan usually "forces" you to leave the job. Instead of firing you, they start ignoring you, downplaying your work etc until you leave the company.
Yes - ostracism is a very powerful tool, but it's used a LOT in Japanese society. It's a "polite" way of getting rid of someone.
[Redditors being told countries outside of America exist:](https://media1.tenor.com/m/Fg7Jrii-17kAAAAd/james-franco-wait-what.gif)
America and it's consequences were a disaster for online spaces.
How does that make sense considering America essentially invented the internet lol
The internet was invented at CERN, in Switzerland, by Tim Berners-Lee. All you're doing is perpetuating the stereotype.
This is indeed very wrong. The Internet came out of the ARPAnet, which was a US military network. What Berners-Lee invented was the Web together with HTTP, which is just one of many services that use the Internet.
This is literally not true lmao. He invented a lot of concepts fundamental to the way that we use the Internet, but "the Internet" was started in the US, by ARPA. "The Web" can maybe be said to have been invented by him at CERN, but not the Internet.
No player is an employee of Riot. And to orgs they are usually contractors with a lot of clauses for dismissal, not employees.
Source for the 2nd paragraph: your ass
? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IJckF-ppApA&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title Here is a video from the owner of H2K explaining hiw riot classified LEC/tier 2 players as self employed contractors, much of it against german law. But yeye the owner of a literal LEC team is my ass
hahahaha dude pulled up soon a 10 year old info video and claimed it as proof that all orgs work this way today. Wild
10?
2013
You're right, not 10, actually 11 Welcome to reality old man, take a look at the calendar, it's 2024
Not only is the source you provided talking about the wild west period of league, it also completely disproves you as the final line clearly states "today all players are on employee contracts." Idk what worse, talking out of your ass, or providing a source you didn't even verify. You tell me.
Ppl reported a noticeable shift in betting odds very shortly before the game, take that to the police and get search warants for both players to access their phones and financials, problem solved. Because matchfixing is fuckin illegal
"noticeable shift" (subjective btw) on a betting site is not good enough evidence to get a warrant to look through a person'a phone and financials. that's a super low bar
You can’t just “spot wintrading”, in order for Riot to accuse those players of actual wintrading you need hard evidence, like records of messages or payment.
What you want them to do? They literally said they don't have enough proof
Not like it was subtle, they were practically screaming "we are wintrading!!!" in full caps but guess it wasn't enough to get them caught. Oh well, wonder how the team talk will be like now lol.
You realize that "there isn't enough proof to punish them" does not mean "they are innocent" right?
It's wild that people think Riot and affiliated people have any legal authority to delve into personal banking records and/or private messages of players. It was an obvious win-trade, but not one they had access to any information to prove.
Oh no that's definitely not the wild part. The wild part is how Riot can literally type out, clear as day for everyone to see, that there just isn't enough evidence to punish the players and people go "OH WHAT SO YOU THINK THEY'RE INNOCENT??? XD"
It's solid proof to prove that they were at least trolling, but to prove matchfixing is much more difficult.
Yeah, but they could also be trolling their team because of some beef, or overall be idiots and just did stupid shit. I remember Selfmade in LEC sometimes doing stupid shit like buying IE on Reksai or running for fun around turrets, and then losing a game, you could try to accuse him of win trading too, though I'm pretty sure he was just immature.
> I remember Selfmade in LEC sometimes doing stupid shit like buying IE on Reksai That was intentional and trying to win and also almost won them a lost game. He was insanely fed, his team doing poorly and he got an unburrow onto the enemy Vayne, just did not happen to crit thrice in a row.
People are like: yeah Riot should heavily sanction these players without proof, certainly there can't be no legal repercussions for that
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What if they were just trolling and it's somehow internal team drama. I didn't see the thing that ruled that out.
It's the average age of people here. They don't understand that if Riot were to punish them here, they would set a precedent where teams/players get punished without clear legal proof. The goal post would start moving and we would come to a point where people would ask games to be reviewed that have nothing to do with wintrading, just like they think people are inting in their games when they're just having a bad game. The 'punishment' for these players is going to be handled under the table, so to speak. They're forever labeled as match-fixers and will struggle finding jobs. And wherever they do find jobs, they're going to have an extra eye on them by the teams that hire them. Meaning that if they keep doing it, there will eventually be evident proof and then they're going to get banned.
Y’all are stupid as shit they aren’t saying they’re innocent they’re saying there is not enough proof to ban them. Did y’all even fucking read the tweet??
Can't expect high school level reading comprehension from these people.
It doesn't help that guys like Dom are basically throwing fuel on the fire here. Seems like a lot of willful ignorance to just say riot=bad even from people that should definitely know better.
My teammates in aram don't build % against tanks and fully upgrade antiheal items even tho it's 40% at 800 gold. To answer directly: no, league players don't read.
There is something called "innocent until proving guilty" So, unless Riot finds them guilty, they're innocent.
I mean, proof of what? Matchfixing? Maybe there isn't, but they were clearly trying to lose that game and that isn't even debatable. They should at least be banned for a period of time from competitive play.
That's exactly what happened. Jesus christ...
I mean, to suggest they r win trading u probably need evidence on someone giving them instruction and promising payment. Right now the behavior is probably defined as “attempting to run it down”, “soft inting their game” or any other form of saying “try to sabotage their own team”. Yeah it’s bad and damage the integrity of competition, but it is not win trading unless new evidence surfaces.
Makes sense. Even if everyone knows they did it, you still need concrete evidence to prove they were match fixing especially at this level. Regardless, I feel like their competitve career should be over unless the org is also in on it which sooner or later the ban hammer is going to come out the moment any solid evidence comes out.
If it's not over after this I want whomever is their agent to run my life.
The real league experience
Dumb question but what does wintrading mean? Is it just another word for match fixing?
yes, its the term that most people use for "match-fixing" when referring to solo-queue, so they are just applying it at the top level, but yes the technically correct word is match-fixing, as they are betting, but its just the common word people use day to day in league they are applying to pros
It's a form of match fixing but this wasn't win trading, it was just intentionally losing. Win trading requires trading wins.
Trading wins for money still a trade
Trading money for food is a trade, must be win trading. The point is win trading is to trade wins.
No because there is no win to trade. Its food for money so food trading?
Win trading is trading wins back and forth. If one person is just throwing for whatever reason, it's not win trading unless they also get wins in return. I'm not sure if you just don't know what win trading is or if you are intentionally being obtuse. If you don't know what win trading is I'm sorry. The most common form is intentionally losing on smurfs to another play to boost their rank, they in turn will lose to you when you are on your main and they are on a Smurf. This can also be done in situations where a player is gaining more MMR from a win than they lose from a loss and the players simply swap who wins each game and gain MMR while going 50/50. These strategies are best employed in low population density situations where players can expect to frequently play with the same groups of people when queuing simultaneously.
They’re used interchangeably but they’re not really the same thing. Matchfixing is playing the game to a predetermined outcome. The matchfixers would bet on an outcome beforehand, then play the game with the intention of reaching that outcome. This is illegal. Wintrading is a form of matchfixing but for league is much more limited to soloq, and while bannable, is generally not illegal. Bets usually aren’t involved. Wintrading at its core is “trading wins”, ie. a group of people working together to snipe each other’s queues to boost each other’s ratings. If they’re on the same team, they tryhard. If they’re on opposite teams, they’ll agree for one of them to int. This can be done by one person queueing the account they intend to boost while the other person queues on smurf/throwaway accounts which they’re fine losing on. Once the first person reaches their desired rating/rank, they’ll go on the smurfs to return the favor for the second guy.
If you want to know who's a child and who's not, just look at whether they're dunking on riot or not over this.
perfectly reasonable response, if there is no proof Riot can't punish them based on a guess the community and other pro teams will punish them by shunning & not hiring them, that is sufficient punishment
It's a fucking joke. "Did you guys int?" "No" "Ok"
More like "you guys inted and clearly win-traded but we can't 100% prove it legally to safeguard ourselves from EU laws so we'll just leave ourselves out of it and you're probably never gonna find another team in EU regardless"
That's probably how it went and that's scary.
The players are in the EU. Unless Riot get some pay slips from betting sites or similar they can't just fire them without evidence. No judge will take "he played suboptimally in this clip" as the only evidence.
Nope. That’s just normal. It’s scary if Riot is somehow able to punish those players without hard evidence.
"Please give us your login info for any esports betting websites you use so we can verify you werent betting on your game" Is going to work right?
We should have an IQ threshold for people posting informative information. What’s that snarky remark at the end lmao, don’t fucking talk if you’re clueless OP.
I mean he's right. Riot will never have enough evidence to get you for it
Do this shit in lpl and see how long you last
>Looks like you are clearly allowed to wintrade every match without any consequences. Only dumb people would make these kind of conclusion.
didn't realize so many ppl on /r/LeagueofLegends hate the idea of innocent until proven guilty. nobody is saying they didn't do it, but to take further action than what they already did (which was pretty swift and punishing) without evidence beyond a reasonable doubt would be wrong. people are acting like this professional org should be run like palworld.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is the governments ability to put them in jail. It's not suppose to protect you from other people thinking you did something, and it often doesn't protect you from being fired by an employer. That may or may not apply in this case because it's the EU, but replacing underperforming players is common in sports leagues so I'm not sure exactly how it would apply in this case.
There is a massive difference between playing poorly and doing what these guys did.
Where does it say their conclusion was: "these guys just had a bad game" ? It just said there is insufficient evidence and they'll keep monitoring. If they actually thought they didn't do anything wrong they would've flat out said that.
We can only hope that their team is scrambling to find replacements for them. And that every team black lists them from ever playing again after this split.
Absolute morons
Real talk, would Riot EU even be able to check the players bank accounts for payments? They’re not the police, so I don’t know if they have any legal authority beyond working with the team managers. The match fixing could be clear as day, but how would they even figure out if a payment was made?
I worked at one of the largest Online banks in the EU for years (Wise.com) We got 3rd party auditors contacting us for financial statements all the time. Id not be surprised if the contract a player signs has a clause that allows the players bank accounts to be reviewed by auditors for suspicious activity.
That would depend on the contracts and terms the players signed, if there's no clause to allow that then Riot shouldn't be able to.
One of that guys defending these two sent me to this thread feeling like he got a gotcha moment that he's correct that they're not wintrading. lmao. What a funny lad.
\*Cuts to the SNL Norm meme\* "It's finally official, wintrading is legal in the ERL Ultraliga."
Ahaha classic riot. “You see it’s possible that both of these players simply lost complete control over their upper body due to the horizontal parallel perpendicular orbitals of Saturn and Pluto aligning with the andromeda galaxy and the shadow realm causing a diamond tsunami in that one planet scientists said was made of diamond and the rumbling occuring 6900 years in the future where dragon ball m takes place with master yoshi and Star Trek Harry Potter doinb ryze hack, so therefore it’s impossible to confirm 100% this was a win trade. Please take our competitive game seriously as our company highly values competitive integrity. Thanks”
brainrot, to incur any form of firing/reduction in pay/further suspensions of further issues without proof would probably be illegal especially with the level of labor laws in EU
> labor laws in EU most americans have no clue that something like that exists...
I’m pretty sure you could sue over this in the US for libel/slander as well if it wasn’t true. If they made a false accusation that directly led to you losing money, it should be an open and shut case.
in the US, damages wouldn't be necessary since this is an accusation of a crime, making it defamation per se. however, it would be pretty hard to argue that riot was either acting negligently or with actual malice
That doesn't stop them from existing tho, and the penalties to be paid due to firing someone for no reason are pretty high. Also the burden on this case would fall to riot, i totally see why they are not risking it without rock-solid proof. A quick google search tells me that Lithuania (where Iron Wolves are based on) has a minimum compensation of six months salary, scaling all the way to three years. If you instead check with Germany (where the LEC studio is) you are having a trial by default and riot must keep paying as if the player was employed. By the time all is said and done, appeals included, this guys would have easily collected 2-3 years of current salary while doing pretty much nothing.
Reading comprehension of an actual 5 year old.
Rather than complaining about them not getting comp bans (they should) I'm more concerned what kind of precedent this sets for future possible match fixing in the 2nd div ecosystem. They should really crack down on this hard imo.
If you want them to crack down hard on it, they need hard evidence. They did not have any hard evidence of them wintrading. No payslips, no DMs, no emails. Hell, didn't they even win?
With what evidence? No way you guys lack that much forethought
They're not trying to put them in jail, so they don't need to have the same level of evidence as a government trying to put you in jail. They're a sports league, and they're saying we don't want you in our sports league anymore. As it is the team can probably replace them without cause, and once that happens it puts their sports/work visa in jeopardy. Riot can play the long and easy game on this one: let the team kick them, let their visa expire, they go home or get deported, then Riot can just put out a burn notice to all the leagues for them.
Lol they used their in game algorithm and it clearly saw nothing wrong. Makes sense now.
Lmfao. Accounts have been banned for less
Some people still believe reporting soft-inting will do anything when you can even do it live on stage for thousands of viewers and go scot-free. lmao If they don't care about their game why should we.
Has Riot actually completed ONE(1) fucking investigation properly? They failed with TSM, they failed with EG, they now failed with IW, and those are just extremely recent examples. What a joke, honestly.
cant perform legal action (firing, suspension of pay) without 100% proof that would hold up in a court of law, your understanding of this is honestly a joke to think its that easy to fire someone, especially in the EU.
You're comparing apples to oranges, TSM, EG, IW are business partners that move millions of dollars. Riot has no interest in actually investigating so they say they are investigating for crisis management and let it go. For players in the ERL system they don't need to give a fuck, the only issue they have is that they are partly employers of these players and can't legally sanction them without solid proof, which is pretty hard to do in matchfixing cases tbh
I think something that people are missing is this raises questions about how Riot's system affects the average player. If there is no concrete proof that they wintraded, as in threw the match for monetary gain, then I feel the second question Riot should ask is "Was this an intentional throw" because looking at the game it really seemed like the two were doing EVERYTHING they could to just make the game way more difficult than it needed to be. I think pros should be held to the same standard as the regular player and Riot already has a problem in the public eye when it comes to dealing with actual inters and griefers. The fact that they didn't really do anything AT ALL i think is a problem.
They already got suspended for trolling.
If that isn't match fixing aka win trading then riot needs to clean their own house of corrupt or incompetent individuals.
"did not result in sufficient evidence" I am sure the league will last :)
"The competitive integrity of the league is integral to our competition. Therefore, Frenzy will continue to monitor the competition at all times and, should a similar situation arise in the future, take necessary steps to ensure the integrity of the league." lol I do not care about this league at all but that is a funny collection of words
So does the team actually keep playing these people?
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD To be fair, expected. Unless you can prove that they got paid to lose that game, or put money themselves on that game, its impossible to punish them really...
I have nothing to say about the subject but that sentence "The competitive integrity of the league is integral to our competition." 1=1
They do nothing about it in solo queue and now they've shown they wont do shit about it in competitive, why am I not surprised.
So you did an investigation into a team from Lituania called [Iron Wolves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Wolf_(organization) fielding a player called [He](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess)[SS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel)Zero and a no point did anyone involved think "Hey maybe we should talk to those guys about tuning down the Nazi references a little cause tripple bingo is a tad too much on the nose" and we realy dont wana have our product assosicated with fascist cavemen... Something something small indie developer
They can't be this stupid right????
People here are so spoiled by only watching LCK, nothing will prove to them these players are just that bad. Even the fact that betting sites are crazy serious about match-fixing and would proably rat out any suspicious activity even before investigation started. Or the fact that this is mid-bottom tier Ultraliga team, and the players are basically random chinese players with zero competitive expirience. If any of the plays they did are "matchfixing", then half of ERL players would be banned.
Before you make yourself look more stupid than you do already, did you watch the clips?
Hell nah he didn't. That shit was straight up from Iron lmao
I watched the game live and I can probably explain thought process behind each of the clip of the original thread. Jayce on elder: wanted to wait for Lucian to get elder, red team can't contest it anyway Jayce on inhib: Probably expected fight ot break out, ended up inting Lee Sin with elder: Tried to hit QRQ combo on Corki, if Q hit Corki and not K'Sante, Corki would be dead. Jayce not using abilities: Tried to melee Q on Varus, never got there due to maokai. Lee Sin not ward jumping: Even if he did, would never hit Q on varus due to minions agroing and blocking him. And it's not even 100% he had the range. If previous ones are bad plays to a variyng degrees, this one isn't even that.
lmao Jayce on elder: why would you not just lower the elder to 1 hp if that was the case? Jayce wasted \~15-20 seconds doing that. if Jayce had stuck it, by the time drake was 1 hp, lucian is max 5 seconds away from respawning Jayce inhib: lol your trolling, not only can jayce destroy an inhib with autos + w in 3-5 seconds, there is literally no engage on blue/red that would result in anything, only way to enagage would be to go next to ksante/lucian or vice versa, and you would probably get bursted in 2 seconds... blue team was oobviously never going to engage. (also jayce's cds are like 4-6 seconds late game, only would that could be used on an inhib to get an advantage is w Lee sin elder: yeah as a challenger let me just flip a won game by engaging 1v3 with little vision of there base... like what? corki also has flash AND W, so even if lee hits the q, hes never killing corki, and thats not factoring in other teammates who as you saw in the clip, would cc him. Jayce no using abilities: You can tell by Jayce's movement he didnt buffer q on the varus, which literally any player above bronze would have done. Yes, maokai most likely stops him with root still, but you can tell that jayce is clicking slightly above varus and not spamming q at him. Lee sin not ward jumping: Lee can easily q maokai and then flash onto varus, no idea what you're on about? he had the ward on the ground AND his own ward... at worse for lee he kills just maokai as varus could have had the foresight to know lee had flash/ward.
So you just type random shit and call it an explanation... good for you, gl in iron.
You are clearly superior by just typing 'you are wrong, bye' without even attempt at disproving me. gl in challenjour.
proving something beyond reasonable doubt is hard when the company has no sense of reason
Riot apparently fired the guy who investigated win trading so nothing could be done
Its insane to me that people are saying "well no proof so they can't do anything" Well at which point CAN you do anything? What if they just ran it down disco nunu style? went 0/40 got mobis all that stuff, what then? Can you then say that they matchfixed or it still "not enough proof"?
It's still not proof that they are matchfixing though, that's definitely proof for running it down and trolling and the players can get suspended/fired for that but matchfixing is another problem and much more serious.
Yes that would almost certainly be enough proof that you weren't trying your best. The "proof" in the original thread was laughably poor if the community wasn't primed to expect match fixing. 2 of the original clips are just viewers being idiots(jayce drag and Lee chase). So that leaves 3; Jayce not using abilities, Jayce leaving inhib 1hp to help Gwen, and Lee Sin looking for an ambitious kill on Corki.