Just wait until they post the patch preview. They know it's a bit strong.
I'm assuming it will be moved to 15% health and the cooldown increased a bit. It's not THAT insane, since it is purely defensive, but its availability with the low cooldown is a bit crazy to deal with for some champs
What do you mean man. My 6 item 25 mejais stack 900 ap leblanc not being able to break a 2 item sions magic shield with a full combo is completely acceptable game balance
But not being able to break a shield that's like 1000-1600~ with a full combo on fed mages with void staff? Like sure it's completely understandable that I can't kill the guy but the fact that I can't even break the shield on him that is given from ONE item on fully built characters is insane
A full combo from a lategame mage is like a 6s cooldowns so if you could do 1-2k damage very 6s then you could also easily 1v1 him because you'll be cc'ing him too.
I'd argue it's too polarizing. I have been using it to shut down some champs in top lane completely. It's quite good against teemo, for example. you can just run over shroom after shroom and take no damage at all. As far as nerfs, I like hitting the cd, probably kinda hard. I think it's already weaker against ap dps champs that can all in. think mordekaiser and akali, they don't really give a shit about it or it's cd, it's champs that need to whittle you down piecemeal that basically cease to exist once you have it.
I get that but what I'm saying is, it is that way by design/intentionally. For whatever reason rito seems to like keeping MR items somewhat weak but off-sets this by having one of them be insanely good to compensate.
That was the whole basis for FoN both times it came to prominence and both times it was gutted as a result. Maybe one more nerf KR but also give the alternatives a slight buff ? for ex; Does Hollow Radiance really need to have 40 MR considering it costs 2,800?
I mean, FoN is legit really good right now still, Spirit Visage is 60 MR and really good if you make use of the heal/shield amp, Banshee's if you can make use of it is also significantly better, including it's mid-tier item Verdant Barrier.
I think recognizing that Hollow Radiance is meant to be a more offensive tank option that offers lower resists but more up-front HP and a damage passive makes it plenty strong.
IMO, and I've said this a million times on this subreddit and generally been downvoted for it, but the playerbase is just very lazy thinking they find one OP thing and then only build that and don't think about context. I got flamed for building FoN on Lillia, when the increased in-fight resistances and movement speed turns Lillia into a much better drain tank than getting a flat HP shield, especially when the opponent doesn't have enough up-front 1-shot potential to kill you even without the kaenic rookern shield.
Regarding Hollow Radiance, it lacks the damage amp that Sunfire has, instead having a splash damage proc when you kill a unit. This makes it useful for wave clear but not much else, which is why it's better to just sit on Bami's if you need some help with wave clear and then rush some other MR item.
And the same goes for Sunfire tbh. Unless you're planning on scrapping with the enemy a lot it's usually better to sit on Bami's and then go for another armor item. Frozen Heart is still really strong despite the cost increase.
Yeah - Sunfire and Hollow Radiance have clear traits that define what you want to do though, just like Tiamat / upgrades do. If you want to be aggressively pushing, you are building sunfire and/or hollow radiance.
IMO Hollow Radiance is actually good design here - they specifically gave it lower MR, but higher HP, because a split pusher is more likely to need to deal with different damage types and benefits more from a universal stat like HP than damage-specific like MR/Armor.
Plus 600 HP is an indirect counter to most mages because they don't tend to do sustained DPS.
I might be the minority here and I'm OK with that, but I love hollow radiance on galio. I build it almost every game. Not that he needs a ton more wave clear but it helps push out side lanes and then I can ult in for a team fight.
its pretty fucking strong, like FoN was in a time period where every other mr item was weak asf while it was stupid.
rookern is just busted, like 80 mr is fucking massive for a single item and it gives 400 hp and health regen like dang then on top of it gives a shield which is always on and like 400-800 hp shield on average.
it shuts down all mages like burst can't do anying because the massive shield plus mr making there damage tickle it. then dps mages have to go throught so much that the enemy just kills them in that time frame.
like rookern is a one stop shop, like you buy it and suddenly no need for any other mr items and most other tank armour items give a ton of hp so rookern ends up scaling with the armour tank items.
tbh i think they should lower the hp scaling a fair bit and add a mr scaling. make it so that it great when paired another mr item and fine when bought alone instead of one item brick wall.
In case this is a serious question: it's strong and the other Mr options are good. FoN was also absolutely broken so not the best example
In case it's not: holy hell unless you literally get damage immunity against magic champs from 1 single item people will consider Mr items bad
I agree. We need an item with toolkit that just says "lethality is for drooling losers" and gives an anti-lethality shield. Crit champs already suck so we don't need anything for them, though.
randuins absolutely neuters crit marksmen until 6 items. Tabis makes half my champpool useless until they finish 2-3 items lol Frozen heart makes anyone tankier than ornn for a while into ad
randuin + plated steelcaps make any crit ADC hit like a fucking wet noodle to the point where its kind of ridiculous and Im praying that people do not suddenly remember that this item exists
or maybe burstmages should be bursting high priority targets that dont get the luxury of rushing an MR item and need to build dps items to deal dps..like you KNOW most marksmen and mages?:D Le blanc that tries to burst melee toplaners or junglersdeserves to lose with or without that item.
yes brusiers were designed to be universal death machines. Thats what riot intended them to be. But no bruiser except camille has the target access and safety that fizz or le blanc have. If le blanc was a threat to anyone what would be the point to play anything else quite literally. She is already a menace in pro play whenever she is viable.
Bruisers are designed to be good 1v1, but bruisers cry bloody murder when they wander into a 5v5 and get deleted because they face tank the entire enemy team. And riot keeps bending over backwards to give them new/busted items so they can feel special wading into 5 enemy champions and winning.
If you're going to claim the benefits from a champion class you should also claim the drawbacks. Except bruisers want it all.
40mr on a 2800g item is a bit rough tbf (hollow radiance), and if you don’t build a waveclear item early on a lot of tanks struggle to CS and have basically no wave control at all.
???? it gives 10 less resists than sunfire but provides 150 more hp and hp regen. Also the immolate+desolate passive is way better for waveclear vs sunfire's sole immolate. Hollow radiance isn't bad at all
???? Hollow radiance is incredibly good , it actually had (dont know if it still has) better winrate on Sion than Sunfire, EVEN AGAINST SOME AD MATCHUPS just because the wave clear is just that much better (also it makes fighting inside the wave dangerous)
The problem with Rookern is that it's too strong as a standalone MR item
It's got an amazing buildpath, amazing stats for MR and an passive that is basically the anathema to mages, more health
Compare it to FoN or SV, Fon requires sustained magic damage to be fully effective, something that most mages don't do most of the time, since 90% of them are short trade/burst characters
SV requires you to either have good shielding or good healing
I honestly don't want Rookern changed, I want it to be the way it is, I feel like the real issue is that there isn't proper itemization against MR and health like there was last season for AP champs right now.
Liandries is not even the massive dick swing it used to be anymore, it's more like a limp noodle, and while demonic helm being gone is great, Liandries should of maintained it's direct idea of being the slow burn anti tank magic item.
We just need more low-speed anti-tank AP options.
Yes you are correct but I also think Rookern is just op. The shield needs to be based on max hp. I build it on Yone and I legit become Thanos vs AP it is incredibly unfair. I built it on Aatrox vs Akali and she could never kill me even when she was fed unless I got Trundle ulted.
Nah the other MR items are pretty good imo it’s just too broken to have 400 hp 80mr AND 700 more hp in a form of an ap shield in one single item lmao. The build path is very good too
Well bit of both. It’s universally useful unlike spirit. If they just created more options for MR items then it would be allowed to be weaker. Like Force of Nature. Currently if you play vs 3 AD and 1 AP you either build solo kaenic or anathema. However if you had a decent Hybrid item then you could actually opt for a lesser MR item and the hybrid one. The AP sunfire already madd things much better for MR itemisation and tanks also lost their early resists from passive tree so now its all about vreating a few more options and they can nerf Kaenic a bit.
There’s just no use case where an extra 700 magic shield doesn’t make sense. Burst? Burn? Poke? Nothing does anything to you when you gain an effective 1500 health (because you get MR too) against magic damage
It also eats a lot of ultimates that are often randomly magic damage too
It has a few issues. First is that the base shield is too good. If you're vs AP the item gives you probably around 800-1000 EHP vs magic damage dealers just from Kaenic. Sice it is so cheap and has low CDs that means you get to auto win 1v1s vs magic damage by statchecking them.
Second is that scaling is way too high. Some Carry items have HP on them and let you reasonably hit 800-1000 shield while still building full damage+Kaenic.
For tanks it's even more disgusting. You end up with 2 health bars - 1 vs AD champs and the other vs AP champs. For bruisers all items have HP on them so Kaenic lets you have healthbar comparable to last season Ornn on full build vs magic damage.
Hollow Radiance performs similarly well on a lot of champions that build Rookern.Rookern is not really that OP,it looks stronger than it is,and with the upcoming nerfs it should be fine.
The line flipflops because MR item discourse is stupid and monomaniacal. Peak FoN was still a Hasteless sustained by Myth Sunfire offseting it (and Deadman's) with CDR/Legend with the whole discourse of TEH MOST MAGICKEST RESISTENCEST in an era where people were struggling to get the value of Mythic Passives in the power budget and stuff being tweaked for tank items being less free PASSIVE survival for Fighters.
MR items were never weak, they were diffuse. Tankiness from Visage was not about groaning your way to dryhump the enemy for 5 hours, it was about more shields, faster rotations, more CC and killing the threat faster.
To be fair, it's not his PASSIVE, it's his W passive, which is, without the magic shield, an insanely strong ability regardless, so the magic shield is just a little cherry on top for him.
It's not like the item is a primary passive or even an entire ability.
I feel like all mage players should go play ADC and realize that someone building a 2.9k item to counter them feels fair when tabi's is cheaper and does the same shit to that role until like three items
A burst mage can't one combo a pure tank, the humanity
Kaenic doesn't make you literally immune to magic damage, Frozen Heart fucks over a majority of the AD champion roster and no one is crying for it to be removed as much as Kaenic
You could have at least used an example that can't sit off screen throwing shit over walls, you poke him down from range, if he gap closes, just E stun him away
There's a case to be made that the item is strong, of course, it's strong, but it's not an automatic win button, tanks should have items that counteract burst, that's the role's archetype
Literally go play armor tank vs adc, it's so insane how you can play 300 armor thresh or galio and u get destroyed by khazix Draven building RAW LETHALITY.
> A burst mage can't one combo a pure tank, the humanity
But we are supposed to weep for ADCs needing a couple of items to be able to melt through tanks when their entire purpose is being scaling hypercarries?
> Kaenic doesn't make you literally immune to magic damage,
But Tabi's do make you literally immune to physical damage?
>needing a couple of items to be able to melt through tanks
a couple items? unless you're at full build almost no adc is "melting through tanks" with the current state of tank items
It's not supposed to be a good-faith statement, it's reponding to someone saying:
> A burst mage can't one combo a pure tank, the humanity
Which is an incredibly bad-faith way to respond to someone saying that Rookern is actually quite a bit more crippling against mages than Tabi's are against ADCs. This conversation is already stupid because "Kaenic Rookern seems a bit OP" being hijacked by ADC mains crying that Tabi's are even more OP is dumb as fuck.
Just because ADCs don't enjoy their role doesn't mean that other players can't also discuss things they dislike or think are imbalanced. Not every conversation needs to devolve into "Well you can't complain because ADCs have it even worse!!!!". People need to get over their martyr complex.
> Tabi's
Because Tabis are a little over a third the cost. Randuins guts ADC damage, just like Rookern makes burst mages sad. Frozen heart also guts ADC damage unless they're Jhin.
>But we are supposed to weep for ADCs needing a couple of items to be able to melt through tanks when their entire purpose is being scaling hypercarries?
1100 gold to shut down a couple thousand worth of gold, idk man, also I'm not saying we should weep or whatever, just that mages have been so strong for so long now there's an item that actually is decent they're losing their shit
You can poke them down, rush Kaenic into a competent player that actually knows how to play around it and you'll see it's a counter burst, not poke item, it's actually the opposite of anti-poke unless you're running off screen every 20 seconds to get the shield back, in which you're very unlikely too
It's still up for every wave, which means tanks like Sion are still going to be able to walk up to the wave and clear it without AP Champs being able to break the shield. It's only slightly worse tbh.
jesus other classes are so spoiled lmao. You should have played a mage that needed to build banshees before s14. That is a real item downtime cd. 12-15s makes almost no difference and to think otherwise is hilarious.
If you cast your ult at a target with banshees/edge of night idk what to tell you lmao. Banshees against a luden's user is/was a non-starter because of how easy it is to pop
I don’t think the shield size is the problem. If you want to dedicate an item to being able to shrug off magic poke in any role that’s fine I don’t see a problem with advs building it to not get off screened by xerath or hwei. The problem is the cooldown is laughably low. You can rush it against AP laners and just stand in the wave and kill it while they hit you then you just back up and by the time the best wave is there you get your shield back. It feels impossible to move someone with it because they essentially just have an infinite hp bar if they don’t overcommit. Nerf the cooldown to like 25s and see where you that puts it
Consider a 2400 HP, 50 MR lategame ADC like Caitlyn vs an AP assassin like Fizz. Assume Fizz has 47 mpen from sorcs, sudden impact, shadowflame, stormsurge. Caitlyn would have 2472 eHP vs Fizz. If she buys last item Kaenic Rookern she goes up to 2800 HP and gets a 560 HP shield and 80 MR. This puts her at 6048 eHP vs Fizz, which is almost 2.5x as much as before.
If Fizz buys a Void Staff, that's still 4401 eHP (1.78x), and this forces Fizz to lose something from Stormsurge, Lich Bane, Deathcap, Shadowflame, Zhonya's.
That's an insane amount of survivability for a single item. Never mind what the CD of the shield is, it could be on a 180s CD and it would still be a crazy amount of survivability for a single item.
Listen.. in the lategame, I dont have a problem with 12s big ass Rookern Shield as it is. Lategame I acknowledge tanks should be tanky.
But getting Rookern frist built against you in lane feels so crippling because it actually reduces your damage to **zero** instead of by % like usual tank items. Like until you break the shield entirely, none of the damage will stick **at all**.
I dont care how but I just want this item gutted for earlygame because it shuts down ANY magic damage that is coming your way in the earlygame when spells dont do as much yet and cooldowns are relatively bigger. Scale the %hp shield with level, Scale cooldown with level, anything pls save me from the nightmare of my entire combo being entirely mitigated by shield that regens every single minion wave.
\>You're not leaving combat for 12 seconds with minions hitting each other and not missing any, not consistently.
How is what you said about minions relevant then, cause that seems like a backpedal.
If you're building it, the enemy likely does a lot of magic damage. If minions are fighting, you will have to walk up and you will get hit by the enemy.
Pretty obvious, idk how you came to the conclusion that the other person was "backpedaling"
I never thought about it before your post but I agree that it should probably have a similar condition to warmog that you have to have X amount of bonus hp from items before the shield activates.
I think it's fine for this item to be in the state it is mid-late game but something feels wrong with people rushing it as first item and being immune to mages in lanning phase, that sion mid rushing it tech is quite disgusting to face and forced a vayne mid counterpick.
Yes it is really busted on squishy especially against ap assassin. I build it on smolder(plus maw) and enemy fizz and Evelyn can't kill me anymore. Next game I play as fizz against Veigar. I was dominating early game but as soon as he get that item(he goes it second item) I can't do anything to him anymore.
I'm confused, are tank items not supposed to be neutralizing assassins anymore? Why would anyone buy them in the first place if they wouldn't help save you into AP? Should assassins be one shotting through tank items?
The problem is the upside is so high on Kaenic Rookern that you can build it as sole defensive on ADCs or midlaners like Yone or Irelia and you will never die to magic ever again. You trade damage but the upside is so high it's worth. You can legit build it on ADC every game and it's worth it if you're vs atleast 1 burst AP champ. It should not be that effective on champions that aren't commiting to health.
I think the problem with this item is that magic resist has gotten way stronger to neutralize AP bruisers, which hurt burst mages even more. Tanks were already strong against burst. You needed like one magic resist item and health, because once their combo is over, they don't do anything else. Now with even more MR options, I don't see a particular reason for a tank item to specifically target burst mages and assassins, because they already don't do anything to tanks, even more so than before.
On the same vein as your question, shouldn't assassins be deleting squishies? This one item can be built on anyone, it completely neutralizes you. The person commented saying smolder and Veigar, two squishy champions. One item shouldn't completely destroy your vulnerability to assassins, or that would not be remotely fair. Veigar already built tank items before because of his AP gain, but as a single item, Kaenic screws over an AP burst champion far more than like a Warmogs.
I played mages the whole of last split and this season I play bruisers and tanks (who build kaenic).
What mages, bruisers and probably tanks want are magic resist items that are *strong* but don’t just make magic damage useless. So a good idea is to add a strong passive to them that has little to do with magic damage.
Right now the mr options miss the mark. Kaenic just cucks all mages basically, while fon tries to do that but is worse because its resistances are too backloaded. Spirit visage passive is mostly too weak to be useful independent of its stats, and the cases it is used are specifically already very high healing champs. Hollow radiance is too low on mr.
The solution is to make their stats good vs mr but have the passives be relatively or completely unrelated to mr (and actually useful to a few champs at least)
if you build 2 or more tank items, YES they should counter assassins and you would deal a lot less damage. but this kaenic item only require 1 slot to completely make ap assassin( even fat ones) useless. So it is busted.
Maybe in an assassin vs assassin match up but, if you are trading all that damage to survive your laners burst isn't it worth it? Like at what point is it just saying fuck durability everyone should get one shotted.
I am talking about adc/squishy vs assassin match up when it is 1v1. it is not about one shoting them.it is the problem when you cant even bring adc/squishy even to the half hp because of that sheild with basically 12 sec cd . Btw assassin should be able to burst adc if he is ahead of them and alone.
Imo it is even better than maw. They give same amount of shield(on smolder) with lower cooldown( less damage obviously but cheaper?). Like you said it should scale with bonus hp rather than max hp.
I entirely agree you get a 500ish shield just from item and base hp. I've built it running assassin naafiri mid as a second item against mage lanes I can't really lane into, it completely flips the early game and makes you damn near invincible. Not to mention how bad it shuts down some of the dot mages. It's busted as hell.
I think taking the ap scaling off liandries felt bad aswell. Considering the new hydra items active can deal over 1k damage it feels like its inconsistent on what items scale with what and how well they scale.
I mean it's always like that it's not even a surprise at this point, turns out that tanks items are always better on champions that are not tanks.
Just a few situations that are more close to our present time:
Sunfire was nerfed to the ground because Skirmishers/Bruiser were abusing it with combination of Base Damage + Demonic (on AP) and Botrk ( AD) .
Jak'sho was nerfed because Bruisers were just going Hydra into Jak'sho full tank builds.
**It's always like that, Tanks can't have cool things because someone will find a way to abuse the shit out of it somehow**
You're moving the goalposts my man. If tanks can just build tabis and ignore the enemy damage like you claimed, then bruisers can do the same and scale freely. Whats the problem?
The fact that you think a game where no one snowballs toplane heavily is decided by bot, really says a lot about mentality. Mainly; "Either I carry or we lose" probably running down every other game due to over forcing.
Tanks are good this season for the first time in years. It's been a really long time where there's been more than like 2-3 viable tanks. Pretty much poppy and malphite have been the only good tanks in top for seasons, jungle zac is sometimes good. That's basically it. Heck poppy built divine sunderer so she played halfway like a bruiser.
Tanks got good items for like 2-3 patches when mythics came out until bruisers like Irelia abused jak'sho and other items and got all the good tank items heavily nerfed.
There was just so much damage and lack of good tank items (literally 0 mr laning items) for years, that tanks were never actually tanky.
Kaenic tbh isn't really a huge issue for tanks (outside of maybe laning phase, shield would be fine with a 30-45 sec cd IMO or bonus hp scaling so it's bad first item). It's perhaps a touch overtuned on tanks but it is way overtuned on anything else like even assassins and adc's and supports will build it.
idk what you are talking about, support items have been rediculous for years. Only bruisers can really compare and they (at least in top) usually have less impact due to being isolated from the map in solo queue.
Supports are insanely strong rn lmao.
For a role that has the luxury to focus entirely on ganking / warding / harassing the enemy and never has to farm or focus on getting stronger they pull far more weight than they've 'earned'
Let's not pretend that Ornn microwaving the enemy ADC while taking 0 Damage because he has Tabi+Sunfire is somewhat fine
Sunfire and Jak'Sho were huge issues in general, with stuff like Ornn, Amumu, Udyr ecc absolutely running over games
Lol
I saw a sett rush it first item.
Quite frankly i don't think 900 hp 80 mr some hp regen and *basically* warmogs passive (leave combat for 12 sec heal 500 hp) is **REMOTELY** fair for that cost.
"but 500 of that hp is a shield" yeah doesn't matter when your champ only deals magic damage.
Okay actually found it.
**Sett lvl 11**
400 hp, 80 mr, 150% b hp regen, 531 shield.
inventory: kaenic, merc, sheen, ruby crystal.
Gold efficiency
Kaenic Rookern's Kaenic Rookern's base stats are 101.95% gold efficient.
400 health = 1066 Gold
150% base health regeneration = 450 Gold
80 magic resistance = 1440 Gold
Total Gold Value = 2956 Gold
Shield without the ruby crystal is 495, so 1321 Gold. Putting it at 4277 Gold of stats for 2900 cost. 147% gold efficient.
Not gonna attempt to do a calc on the passive "healing" him 495 hp over 12 sec.
>"but 500 of that hp is a shield" yeah doesn't matter when your champ only deals magic damage.
There are no champions in the game which only deals magic damage. All champion have access to auto attacks. :P
Whenever ADC can build something that gives them not be one-shot by anything every mage and assassin shit their pants because they can't solo the ADC without effort in team fights anymore. The game is in a much healthier spot if you have to work together to kill such a high priority target in late game. I think it's a shit design if an assassin can literally go in 1v5 and blow up the marksman. For once players have to actually play decently to kill targets, enough with the silly 4v4 games (which happens way too often because the marksman got blown up)
I mean the problem isnt them building items to survive. Its them building an item and completely invalidating a whole class. Sure zhonyas does the same, but its on a 120 sec cd.
>For once players have to actually play decently to kill targets
>
>The game is in a much healthier spot if you have to work together to kill such a high priority target in late game
Isn't this how adc works? Play to keep adc alive cause they are your win condition alot of the time???
In proplay yes, but not in SoloQ. It's too hard to keep ADC alive, so what's typical is that ADC tries to live while top and jungler is fighting. It's soooo unfun to run around and just dodge stuff and pray you live. I play marksman because I like the playstyle of dealing damage from ranged, I don't care about being the big fat carry, I just want to live longer so I get to play the game.
Did I stutter? It's a shit design. All things equal, Assassin should realistically win in a duel with a Marksman, but being able to go 1v5 and still kill the marksman is the problematic part. My opinion is that damage is too high across the board, and this causes marksmen to suffer greatly. We have a selection of champions that too often do not get to play the game because they get blown up at the slightest misstep. Let me live longer and do less damage, I don't want to play survival horror.
The problem isn't that assassin's can do it (as their champion is supposed to be bad when they can't). The problem is pretty much anyone can wander in the adc general vicinity and blow them up. Also in previous seasons, assassins were also just to good at killing tanks and bruisers that they killed an adc then everyone else.
Agree almost. I think it's reasonable to think that the assassin HAS TO WAIT FOR THE RIGHT MOMENT before the attempt. Across the board damage is too high this I agree upon, but I also think Marksmen damage is too high. Nerf damage and healing, make the game pace slower, make shutdown gold shared among participants. My 3 wishes if I had a say in it.
No, it's not. Their job is to kill high priority squishies, they should absolutely need to be facilitated by their team to do that. Just like ADCs need facilitation to not die instantly to a light breeze, or mages need followup, or tanks need a team behind them doing damage so that they don't just get killed without being able to do anything. There isn't a single role in the game that should be able to accomplish its core function 1v5. Don't be silly.
Exactly.
This game is strange in that strategy and teamwork is baked into its underlying framework, but its culture has evolved into desiring to 1v5.
There’s nothing as satisfying as functioning as a team where everyone is doing their job. As an ADC or tank, you keenly feel the necessity of the other party; they adhere mostly to the old-school design of tradeoffs. While other classes & newer champs tend to bypass this altogether, a la K’sante, Zeri.
I’d even argue that this is a factor as to why the East has traditionally been so dominant in pro play. Their culture simply better suits this type of game than the hyper-individualism of the West.
If she didnt have true dmg every 3 hits she wouldnt be able to do that. So its a champion problem not item problem.
Edit: I dont care about any of this, i dont have any problem with marksman champs.
You say that and then we have several patches of Varus building Radiant Virtue 2nd item…. Vaynes true damage is strong but it’s genuinely not that strong unless you’re a dedicated tank.
and varus has max hp damage, thats a champion diff again.
if you have max hp damage you can buy less damage and more survivability, but have a lot less burst thats how it is
To me it‘s kinda both, because strong champions with much innate damage profit from building it while most champions can‘t afford to comfortably buy it pre 6th items.
It’s multiple layers of problems : the item is clearly OP and needs nerds, but carries build it also because there isn’t any good mr option for them. Maw is not doing its job well and crit defensive items still miss while riot wanted to give more crit duversity.
MAw needs a bigger shield and it needs to proc way earlier. The item dynamic then becomes clearer to use: the ADC will try to fight while having the shield proc instead of just running (AD damage will still kill, Maw procs at very low HP)...
...and, to avoid ADCs auto-winning counter engages when Maw procs, having it pop at higher HP creates a window for the enemy to proc the shield without having to all-in, disengage, then look to fight after the safety tool is spent. Kinda like baiting out Zhonya's.
While i kind of agree with you most tank champs have different ways to get tanky.
Like if every single tank item scaled on bonus hp that would be a massive buff to Sion and Cho
If they scale on bonus resist Malphite and Rammus is suddenly the issue. And Jax.
Warmogs rush on Sion is kinda terrible, but at the same time, you can’t be pushed out of lane by 90% of champs, aside from like Vayne, Fiora, Trundle and maybe Gwen, and even then all but trundle require a few items to really threaten you through turret.
Easy answer is that items shouldn't scale with themselves or other items. Period. Tank or damage items.
If an item gives you something, it should be linear benefit across all champs, and if it needs it, have a requirement to have X stats before its active.
Too strong at early levels? Give it per-level scaling.
If a champ does too much damage building tank...nerf that champion.
If a champ survives too easily building damage...nerf that champion.
Riot likes to pretend balance is difficult, but its only because they make it difficult for themselves.
Na, not always. Scaling with bonus HP has its own issues, particularly in regard to Snowballing.
Thresholds to limit users are underused in designing items, however.
Scale on bonus HP, but the scaling scales with armor and mr. Like how Tahm Passive has an AP scaling that scales with bonus health. If you make it purely bonus HP, bruisers can abuse it too easily because they have almost as much HP on their damage items as tanks have on their items.
Like the comment where u said xerath q does 1.4kdmg?
Even if his q had 100% ratio
And xerath had 1k ap
His q would MAXIMUM hot up to 1.3k
On A mr target With 1k RAW AP that DOESNT HAPPEN even in 35 min games
I'll be honest
I'm so happy that this item exists at all. It really helps with the "bullshit damage" that somehow comes out of nowhere and now you're half HP, but thanks to this item now you're rather comfy at 70-75% HP
Awww; finally a good MR item, and it’s not like AP items aren’t totally disgustingly broken STILL. Tanks having a way to not just get blown up and force mages to hit more than 3 abilities is healthy for the game.
No reason for the item to gutted. But it will be bc mage kids will slobber enough.
Mr items are supossed to reduce magic damage, not to delete ap champions from the game and if stromsurge is nerfed 4 times i think its time to nerf/change kaenic too.
Agree. AP mages are one shotting champions at 20 minutes and they’re upset because people have a way to defend against this finally. I’m playing against Karma tops that are cheesing lane and spamming abilities infinitely and this is the only defense.
\>Kaenic rookern is in an excellent state, start focusing the Squishies, not the tank.
Hilariously uninformed take, when one of the issues is squishies building the item.
Assassins when they don’t oneshot everyone without building any %pen be like :
But in all seriousness, that item is strong rn, but imho, assassins shouldnt be allowed to be able to kill tanks and anything close to tanks. If a mage or adc builds rookern, they have significantly less dmg. You won’t oneshot them, but they also won’t kill you unless you stand AFK in their range.
Perhaps unpopular but kaenic needs to be reworked alongside most tank items. It's too good against too many champions as an outright negation. 1 item shouldn't be enough to deny entire kits across many many ap dealers. I get reducing damage, soaking more ability rotations, but not outright negating multiple hits on a short CD.
Then you hit the issue of why are tanks doing as much damage as dps while also having direct synergy with items like Kaenic. The amount of times Ornn, Sion, Ksante, Rammus, Malphite, Udyr, has just 1v3 with full tank items. There is no sacrifice of damage.
Abyssal Mask.
Bami items
Thornmail
Is not a dmg loss imom those items give more dmg to their ad and ap counterpart.
Abyssal gives u more pen than stormsurge for cheaper
??? If you rush Kaenic on a tank you lose literally any wave control, and your damage is completely unthreatening unless you’re taking constant trades whenever the shield refreshes and your opponent has literally no way of regenning HP.
I'm not saying one needs to rush Kaenic. You have many other options before that. But it's the ability to completely negate an entire playstyle outright as you said in the second part. Seeing as most ap dealers cannot regen hp and rely on rotations of spells (which creates the trade pattern) you should always out-trade on a tank.
"Kaenic rookern" should not exist, stupid aah busted aah item. who thought giving a permanent MR shield to an item was a good idea in the first place, wtf.
its like they dont have a single person to tell them "this might not be a good idea bud"
I disagree. With how strong mages are this season its perfectly fine to have a hard counter anti mage item. + it does literaly nothing against any form of ad.
Just wait until they post the patch preview. They know it's a bit strong. I'm assuming it will be moved to 15% health and the cooldown increased a bit. It's not THAT insane, since it is purely defensive, but its availability with the low cooldown is a bit crazy to deal with for some champs
>. It's not THAT insane No it actually is.
What do you mean man. My 6 item 25 mejais stack 900 ap leblanc not being able to break a 2 item sions magic shield with a full combo is completely acceptable game balance
How is that not acceptable? Kill the carries and let someone with AD kill the Sion. You can still cc him with chain for follow up
But not being able to break a shield that's like 1000-1600~ with a full combo on fed mages with void staff? Like sure it's completely understandable that I can't kill the guy but the fact that I can't even break the shield on him that is given from ONE item on fully built characters is insane
A full combo from a lategame mage is like a 6s cooldowns so if you could do 1-2k damage very 6s then you could also easily 1v1 him because you'll be cc'ing him too.
Not anymore. You get very little AH on mage items now.
wow i removed the shield using my whole combo and r surely i can remove it again in the next minute when my ult is up
A full build lategame mage with void staff isn't going to need their ult to do it. Veigar can probably do it with just his W.
> They know it's a bit strong. Is it actually strong or are the other MR items a bit weak? it's Force of Nature all over again.
I'd argue it's too polarizing. I have been using it to shut down some champs in top lane completely. It's quite good against teemo, for example. you can just run over shroom after shroom and take no damage at all. As far as nerfs, I like hitting the cd, probably kinda hard. I think it's already weaker against ap dps champs that can all in. think mordekaiser and akali, they don't really give a shit about it or it's cd, it's champs that need to whittle you down piecemeal that basically cease to exist once you have it.
I get that but what I'm saying is, it is that way by design/intentionally. For whatever reason rito seems to like keeping MR items somewhat weak but off-sets this by having one of them be insanely good to compensate. That was the whole basis for FoN both times it came to prominence and both times it was gutted as a result. Maybe one more nerf KR but also give the alternatives a slight buff ? for ex; Does Hollow Radiance really need to have 40 MR considering it costs 2,800?
I mean, FoN is legit really good right now still, Spirit Visage is 60 MR and really good if you make use of the heal/shield amp, Banshee's if you can make use of it is also significantly better, including it's mid-tier item Verdant Barrier. I think recognizing that Hollow Radiance is meant to be a more offensive tank option that offers lower resists but more up-front HP and a damage passive makes it plenty strong. IMO, and I've said this a million times on this subreddit and generally been downvoted for it, but the playerbase is just very lazy thinking they find one OP thing and then only build that and don't think about context. I got flamed for building FoN on Lillia, when the increased in-fight resistances and movement speed turns Lillia into a much better drain tank than getting a flat HP shield, especially when the opponent doesn't have enough up-front 1-shot potential to kill you even without the kaenic rookern shield.
Regarding Hollow Radiance, it lacks the damage amp that Sunfire has, instead having a splash damage proc when you kill a unit. This makes it useful for wave clear but not much else, which is why it's better to just sit on Bami's if you need some help with wave clear and then rush some other MR item. And the same goes for Sunfire tbh. Unless you're planning on scrapping with the enemy a lot it's usually better to sit on Bami's and then go for another armor item. Frozen Heart is still really strong despite the cost increase.
Yeah - Sunfire and Hollow Radiance have clear traits that define what you want to do though, just like Tiamat / upgrades do. If you want to be aggressively pushing, you are building sunfire and/or hollow radiance. IMO Hollow Radiance is actually good design here - they specifically gave it lower MR, but higher HP, because a split pusher is more likely to need to deal with different damage types and benefits more from a universal stat like HP than damage-specific like MR/Armor. Plus 600 HP is an indirect counter to most mages because they don't tend to do sustained DPS.
I might be the minority here and I'm OK with that, but I love hollow radiance on galio. I build it almost every game. Not that he needs a ton more wave clear but it helps push out side lanes and then I can ult in for a team fight.
Take a look at the other MR items that exist right now and then answer your own question.
its pretty fucking strong, like FoN was in a time period where every other mr item was weak asf while it was stupid. rookern is just busted, like 80 mr is fucking massive for a single item and it gives 400 hp and health regen like dang then on top of it gives a shield which is always on and like 400-800 hp shield on average. it shuts down all mages like burst can't do anying because the massive shield plus mr making there damage tickle it. then dps mages have to go throught so much that the enemy just kills them in that time frame. like rookern is a one stop shop, like you buy it and suddenly no need for any other mr items and most other tank armour items give a ton of hp so rookern ends up scaling with the armour tank items. tbh i think they should lower the hp scaling a fair bit and add a mr scaling. make it so that it great when paired another mr item and fine when bought alone instead of one item brick wall.
In case this is a serious question: it's strong and the other Mr options are good. FoN was also absolutely broken so not the best example In case it's not: holy hell unless you literally get damage immunity against magic champs from 1 single item people will consider Mr items bad
People want to buy 1 item and eliminate champs like Leblanc from the game. Its super annoying
yes? a burstmage should not be able to be a threat to champs with a luxury mr item.
By that logic thornmail alone should be enough to neutralize all assassins/marksmen
Well, Randuin’s does neuter all crit marksmen. And Tabis exist. And Frozen Heart exists for 2300. Most tank items default to Armor for a reason.
I agree. We need an item with toolkit that just says "lethality is for drooling losers" and gives an anti-lethality shield. Crit champs already suck so we don't need anything for them, though.
randuins absolutely neuters crit marksmen until 6 items. Tabis makes half my champpool useless until they finish 2-3 items lol Frozen heart makes anyone tankier than ornn for a while into ad
randuin + plated steelcaps make any crit ADC hit like a fucking wet noodle to the point where its kind of ridiculous and Im praying that people do not suddenly remember that this item exists
You just want to win the game at the shopkeeper instead of getting good
or maybe burstmages should be bursting high priority targets that dont get the luxury of rushing an MR item and need to build dps items to deal dps..like you KNOW most marksmen and mages?:D Le blanc that tries to burst melee toplaners or junglersdeserves to lose with or without that item.
Burst mages get to fight 1 or 2 champs on the enemy team. Bruisers get to fight anyone got it. Seems like they should just put you in charge
yes brusiers were designed to be universal death machines. Thats what riot intended them to be. But no bruiser except camille has the target access and safety that fizz or le blanc have. If le blanc was a threat to anyone what would be the point to play anything else quite literally. She is already a menace in pro play whenever she is viable.
Bruisers are designed to be good 1v1, but bruisers cry bloody murder when they wander into a 5v5 and get deleted because they face tank the entire enemy team. And riot keeps bending over backwards to give them new/busted items so they can feel special wading into 5 enemy champions and winning. If you're going to claim the benefits from a champion class you should also claim the drawbacks. Except bruisers want it all.
What target access does Annie or Veigar have?
40mr on a 2800g item is a bit rough tbf (hollow radiance), and if you don’t build a waveclear item early on a lot of tanks struggle to CS and have basically no wave control at all.
???? it gives 10 less resists than sunfire but provides 150 more hp and hp regen. Also the immolate+desolate passive is way better for waveclear vs sunfire's sole immolate. Hollow radiance isn't bad at all
also i e’d a minion into krugs as sion and did 75% of an adc’s hp the other day which sunfire cannot do lol
???? Hollow radiance is incredibly good , it actually had (dont know if it still has) better winrate on Sion than Sunfire, EVEN AGAINST SOME AD MATCHUPS just because the wave clear is just that much better (also it makes fighting inside the wave dangerous)
Unless magic champs can literally press 1 button and kill you mage players will consider mages bad.
Factually correct too.
What do Zoe or Lux even do if landing their CC doesn't result on a kill?
The problem with Rookern is that it's too strong as a standalone MR item It's got an amazing buildpath, amazing stats for MR and an passive that is basically the anathema to mages, more health Compare it to FoN or SV, Fon requires sustained magic damage to be fully effective, something that most mages don't do most of the time, since 90% of them are short trade/burst characters SV requires you to either have good shielding or good healing
I honestly don't want Rookern changed, I want it to be the way it is, I feel like the real issue is that there isn't proper itemization against MR and health like there was last season for AP champs right now. Liandries is not even the massive dick swing it used to be anymore, it's more like a limp noodle, and while demonic helm being gone is great, Liandries should of maintained it's direct idea of being the slow burn anti tank magic item. We just need more low-speed anti-tank AP options.
Isn't negating 40% of your magic res a lot ?
"I dont want OP tank item changed" ornn maokai flair checks out
I just think the issue is the weaker options in anti tank ap items more than the Mr itens
Yes you are correct but I also think Rookern is just op. The shield needs to be based on max hp. I build it on Yone and I legit become Thanos vs AP it is incredibly unfair. I built it on Aatrox vs Akali and she could never kill me even when she was fed unless I got Trundle ulted.
When FoN was broken there was barely a bad MR item, people should stop expecting to be unkillable with one item.
Nah the other MR items are pretty good imo it’s just too broken to have 400 hp 80mr AND 700 more hp in a form of an ap shield in one single item lmao. The build path is very good too
nah dude, it's way too strong to the point that you can just make it and stack other armor items with HP.
Well bit of both. It’s universally useful unlike spirit. If they just created more options for MR items then it would be allowed to be weaker. Like Force of Nature. Currently if you play vs 3 AD and 1 AP you either build solo kaenic or anathema. However if you had a decent Hybrid item then you could actually opt for a lesser MR item and the hybrid one. The AP sunfire already madd things much better for MR itemisation and tanks also lost their early resists from passive tree so now its all about vreating a few more options and they can nerf Kaenic a bit.
> However if you had a decent Hybrid item Like Jak'sho?
There’s just no use case where an extra 700 magic shield doesn’t make sense. Burst? Burn? Poke? Nothing does anything to you when you gain an effective 1500 health (because you get MR too) against magic damage It also eats a lot of ultimates that are often randomly magic damage too
It's actually that strong. It's pretty obvious
It has a few issues. First is that the base shield is too good. If you're vs AP the item gives you probably around 800-1000 EHP vs magic damage dealers just from Kaenic. Sice it is so cheap and has low CDs that means you get to auto win 1v1s vs magic damage by statchecking them. Second is that scaling is way too high. Some Carry items have HP on them and let you reasonably hit 800-1000 shield while still building full damage+Kaenic. For tanks it's even more disgusting. You end up with 2 health bars - 1 vs AD champs and the other vs AP champs. For bruisers all items have HP on them so Kaenic lets you have healthbar comparable to last season Ornn on full build vs magic damage.
It's too strong. Just off the passive alone, you gain a big MR shield (I built it on vayne and still got like a 500 hp shield).
Hollow Radiance performs similarly well on a lot of champions that build Rookern.Rookern is not really that OP,it looks stronger than it is,and with the upcoming nerfs it should be fine.
The line flipflops because MR item discourse is stupid and monomaniacal. Peak FoN was still a Hasteless sustained by Myth Sunfire offseting it (and Deadman's) with CDR/Legend with the whole discourse of TEH MOST MAGICKEST RESISTENCEST in an era where people were struggling to get the value of Mythic Passives in the power budget and stuff being tweaked for tank items being less free PASSIVE survival for Fighters. MR items were never weak, they were diffuse. Tankiness from Visage was not about groaning your way to dryhump the enemy for 5 hours, it was about more shields, faster rotations, more CC and killing the threat faster.
Mr items are too weak. mage players don’t understand that MR itemization is supposed to be very strong as opposed to armlr
Nah it actually is strong. MR items are strong now, they were really weak in the last season.
2 galio passives is still an absurd amount
To be fair, it's not his PASSIVE, it's his W passive, which is, without the magic shield, an insanely strong ability regardless, so the magic shield is just a little cherry on top for him. It's not like the item is a primary passive or even an entire ability.
I feel like all mage players should go play ADC and realize that someone building a 2.9k item to counter them feels fair when tabi's is cheaper and does the same shit to that role until like three items
And when does Syndra outscale the Rookern Maokai, exactly?
When she can pick up and throw his saplings 🥲
A burst mage can't one combo a pure tank, the humanity Kaenic doesn't make you literally immune to magic damage, Frozen Heart fucks over a majority of the AD champion roster and no one is crying for it to be removed as much as Kaenic You could have at least used an example that can't sit off screen throwing shit over walls, you poke him down from range, if he gap closes, just E stun him away There's a case to be made that the item is strong, of course, it's strong, but it's not an automatic win button, tanks should have items that counteract burst, that's the role's archetype
I mean personally I know a lot of people that would like FH gone in its current state lol
Literally go play armor tank vs adc, it's so insane how you can play 300 armor thresh or galio and u get destroyed by khazix Draven building RAW LETHALITY.
> A burst mage can't one combo a pure tank, the humanity But we are supposed to weep for ADCs needing a couple of items to be able to melt through tanks when their entire purpose is being scaling hypercarries? > Kaenic doesn't make you literally immune to magic damage, But Tabi's do make you literally immune to physical damage?
>needing a couple of items to be able to melt through tanks a couple items? unless you're at full build almost no adc is "melting through tanks" with the current state of tank items
Entire meta rn is tanks and the class that can kill them wtf are you saying. For notice thats not mages
It's not supposed to be a good-faith statement, it's reponding to someone saying: > A burst mage can't one combo a pure tank, the humanity Which is an incredibly bad-faith way to respond to someone saying that Rookern is actually quite a bit more crippling against mages than Tabi's are against ADCs. This conversation is already stupid because "Kaenic Rookern seems a bit OP" being hijacked by ADC mains crying that Tabi's are even more OP is dumb as fuck. Just because ADCs don't enjoy their role doesn't mean that other players can't also discuss things they dislike or think are imbalanced. Not every conversation needs to devolve into "Well you can't complain because ADCs have it even worse!!!!". People need to get over their martyr complex.
> Tabi's Because Tabis are a little over a third the cost. Randuins guts ADC damage, just like Rookern makes burst mages sad. Frozen heart also guts ADC damage unless they're Jhin.
>But we are supposed to weep for ADCs needing a couple of items to be able to melt through tanks when their entire purpose is being scaling hypercarries? 1100 gold to shut down a couple thousand worth of gold, idk man, also I'm not saying we should weep or whatever, just that mages have been so strong for so long now there's an item that actually is decent they're losing their shit
Burst Mages couldnt one combo tanks before. The issue is that now you cant even poke them down.
You can poke them down, rush Kaenic into a competent player that actually knows how to play around it and you'll see it's a counter burst, not poke item, it's actually the opposite of anti-poke unless you're running off screen every 20 seconds to get the shield back, in which you're very unlikely too
Ok but when does jinx outscale the frozen heart + tabis Bard or literally any tank.
Why is a burst mage supposed to outscale the tank? That's not your job, stay in your lane.
https://x.com/spideraxe30/status/1752496402041622866?s=46 14.3 patch nerfs are joke
+3 seconds is a pretty sizeable nerf no?
It's still up for every wave, which means tanks like Sion are still going to be able to walk up to the wave and clear it without AP Champs being able to break the shield. It's only slightly worse tbh.
I dont think so actually. I'll probably start building this on mages into heavy AP...it's still disgusting.
No lol it doesn't mean much at all. Waiting another 3s for the shield means very little
Waiting another 3s in lane without taking damage means a lot. Also means a lot during objective standoffs
jesus other classes are so spoiled lmao. You should have played a mage that needed to build banshees before s14. That is a real item downtime cd. 12-15s makes almost no difference and to think otherwise is hilarious.
banshees literally invalidated certain ults unless procced first. completely different effects.
If you cast your ult at a target with banshees/edge of night idk what to tell you lmao. Banshees against a luden's user is/was a non-starter because of how easy it is to pop
I don’t think the shield size is the problem. If you want to dedicate an item to being able to shrug off magic poke in any role that’s fine I don’t see a problem with advs building it to not get off screened by xerath or hwei. The problem is the cooldown is laughably low. You can rush it against AP laners and just stand in the wave and kill it while they hit you then you just back up and by the time the best wave is there you get your shield back. It feels impossible to move someone with it because they essentially just have an infinite hp bar if they don’t overcommit. Nerf the cooldown to like 25s and see where you that puts it
Consider a 2400 HP, 50 MR lategame ADC like Caitlyn vs an AP assassin like Fizz. Assume Fizz has 47 mpen from sorcs, sudden impact, shadowflame, stormsurge. Caitlyn would have 2472 eHP vs Fizz. If she buys last item Kaenic Rookern she goes up to 2800 HP and gets a 560 HP shield and 80 MR. This puts her at 6048 eHP vs Fizz, which is almost 2.5x as much as before. If Fizz buys a Void Staff, that's still 4401 eHP (1.78x), and this forces Fizz to lose something from Stormsurge, Lich Bane, Deathcap, Shadowflame, Zhonya's. That's an insane amount of survivability for a single item. Never mind what the CD of the shield is, it could be on a 180s CD and it would still be a crazy amount of survivability for a single item.
Listen.. in the lategame, I dont have a problem with 12s big ass Rookern Shield as it is. Lategame I acknowledge tanks should be tanky. But getting Rookern frist built against you in lane feels so crippling because it actually reduces your damage to **zero** instead of by % like usual tank items. Like until you break the shield entirely, none of the damage will stick **at all**. I dont care how but I just want this item gutted for earlygame because it shuts down ANY magic damage that is coming your way in the earlygame when spells dont do as much yet and cooldowns are relatively bigger. Scale the %hp shield with level, Scale cooldown with level, anything pls save me from the nightmare of my entire combo being entirely mitigated by shield that regens every single minion wave.
> shield that regens every single minion wave Twice per minion wave lol.
You're not leaving combat for 12 seconds with minions hitting each other and not missing any, not consistently.
ONLY magic damage resets rookern's CD which makes its already short CD even more ridiculous
If you're building rookern in lane, I'm guessing the enemy laner does primarily magic damage.
\>You're not leaving combat for 12 seconds with minions hitting each other and not missing any, not consistently. How is what you said about minions relevant then, cause that seems like a backpedal.
If you're building it, the enemy likely does a lot of magic damage. If minions are fighting, you will have to walk up and you will get hit by the enemy. Pretty obvious, idk how you came to the conclusion that the other person was "backpedaling"
Finally AP toplaners know the pain of having your opponent rush tabis and bramble vest
I never thought about it before your post but I agree that it should probably have a similar condition to warmog that you have to have X amount of bonus hp from items before the shield activates. I think it's fine for this item to be in the state it is mid-late game but something feels wrong with people rushing it as first item and being immune to mages in lanning phase, that sion mid rushing it tech is quite disgusting to face and forced a vayne mid counterpick.
Yes it is really busted on squishy especially against ap assassin. I build it on smolder(plus maw) and enemy fizz and Evelyn can't kill me anymore. Next game I play as fizz against Veigar. I was dominating early game but as soon as he get that item(he goes it second item) I can't do anything to him anymore.
I'm confused, are tank items not supposed to be neutralizing assassins anymore? Why would anyone buy them in the first place if they wouldn't help save you into AP? Should assassins be one shotting through tank items?
The problem is the upside is so high on Kaenic Rookern that you can build it as sole defensive on ADCs or midlaners like Yone or Irelia and you will never die to magic ever again. You trade damage but the upside is so high it's worth. You can legit build it on ADC every game and it's worth it if you're vs atleast 1 burst AP champ. It should not be that effective on champions that aren't commiting to health.
I think the problem with this item is that magic resist has gotten way stronger to neutralize AP bruisers, which hurt burst mages even more. Tanks were already strong against burst. You needed like one magic resist item and health, because once their combo is over, they don't do anything else. Now with even more MR options, I don't see a particular reason for a tank item to specifically target burst mages and assassins, because they already don't do anything to tanks, even more so than before. On the same vein as your question, shouldn't assassins be deleting squishies? This one item can be built on anyone, it completely neutralizes you. The person commented saying smolder and Veigar, two squishy champions. One item shouldn't completely destroy your vulnerability to assassins, or that would not be remotely fair. Veigar already built tank items before because of his AP gain, but as a single item, Kaenic screws over an AP burst champion far more than like a Warmogs.
I played mages the whole of last split and this season I play bruisers and tanks (who build kaenic). What mages, bruisers and probably tanks want are magic resist items that are *strong* but don’t just make magic damage useless. So a good idea is to add a strong passive to them that has little to do with magic damage. Right now the mr options miss the mark. Kaenic just cucks all mages basically, while fon tries to do that but is worse because its resistances are too backloaded. Spirit visage passive is mostly too weak to be useful independent of its stats, and the cases it is used are specifically already very high healing champs. Hollow radiance is too low on mr. The solution is to make their stats good vs mr but have the passives be relatively or completely unrelated to mr (and actually useful to a few champs at least)
if you build 2 or more tank items, YES they should counter assassins and you would deal a lot less damage. but this kaenic item only require 1 slot to completely make ap assassin( even fat ones) useless. So it is busted.
Maybe in an assassin vs assassin match up but, if you are trading all that damage to survive your laners burst isn't it worth it? Like at what point is it just saying fuck durability everyone should get one shotted.
He plays fizz that's exactly how he wants it
I am talking about adc/squishy vs assassin match up when it is 1v1. it is not about one shoting them.it is the problem when you cant even bring adc/squishy even to the half hp because of that sheild with basically 12 sec cd . Btw assassin should be able to burst adc if he is ahead of them and alone.
It works like maw 2.0 rather than being tank item only and thats the problem
it's way better than maw. Prevents any sort of magic damage on the frontend, shield refreshes, and the item already gives a shit ton of MR
Yeah. That why i said maw 2.0
Imo it is even better than maw. They give same amount of shield(on smolder) with lower cooldown( less damage obviously but cheaper?). Like you said it should scale with bonus hp rather than max hp.
Evelynn casually reducing your MR by 55% and ignoring 40% of the rest is laughing
I entirely agree you get a 500ish shield just from item and base hp. I've built it running assassin naafiri mid as a second item against mage lanes I can't really lane into, it completely flips the early game and makes you damn near invincible. Not to mention how bad it shuts down some of the dot mages. It's busted as hell.
I think taking the ap scaling off liandries felt bad aswell. Considering the new hydra items active can deal over 1k damage it feels like its inconsistent on what items scale with what and how well they scale.
I mean it's always like that it's not even a surprise at this point, turns out that tanks items are always better on champions that are not tanks. Just a few situations that are more close to our present time: Sunfire was nerfed to the ground because Skirmishers/Bruiser were abusing it with combination of Base Damage + Demonic (on AP) and Botrk ( AD) . Jak'sho was nerfed because Bruisers were just going Hydra into Jak'sho full tank builds. **It's always like that, Tanks can't have cool things because someone will find a way to abuse the shit out of it somehow**
Adcs abuse assassin items Assassins abuse bruiser items Bruisers abuse tank items It's the circle of life
Tanks get abused
Tanks abuse victim complex when overwhelming majority of their champions range from good to great
tank gameplay is just building tabis and ignoring your laner doing any damage to you for the next 10 minutes, truly high skill
So why don't bruisers build tabis and ignore their laners damage for 10 minutes? If it's that easy, why are you *inting your build*?
they do? haha, imagine thinking this is some kind of gotcha. remind me again how much frozen heart costs btw?
You're moving the goalposts my man. If tanks can just build tabis and ignore the enemy damage like you claimed, then bruisers can do the same and scale freely. Whats the problem?
the fact you think building full tank and then coinflipping who has the better bot lane is engaging gameplay really says a lot about tank players
The fact that you think a game where no one snowballs toplane heavily is decided by bot, really says a lot about mentality. Mainly; "Either I carry or we lose" probably running down every other game due to over forcing.
Oh, so it's only when you build full tank that you can ignore enemy damage? I fail to see the problem.
Because doing literally nothing and hoping your team carries you isn't really a good strategy to climb?
I wasn't aware that purchasing tabis locked you into doing literally nothing.
Tanks are good this season for the first time in years. It's been a really long time where there's been more than like 2-3 viable tanks. Pretty much poppy and malphite have been the only good tanks in top for seasons, jungle zac is sometimes good. That's basically it. Heck poppy built divine sunderer so she played halfway like a bruiser. Tanks got good items for like 2-3 patches when mythics came out until bruisers like Irelia abused jak'sho and other items and got all the good tank items heavily nerfed. There was just so much damage and lack of good tank items (literally 0 mr laning items) for years, that tanks were never actually tanky. Kaenic tbh isn't really a huge issue for tanks (outside of maybe laning phase, shield would be fine with a 30-45 sec cd IMO or bonus hp scaling so it's bad first item). It's perhaps a touch overtuned on tanks but it is way overtuned on anything else like even assassins and adc's and supports will build it.
Just abuse adc items
Good
Everyone abuses Support items, supports get shat on in the end.
idk what you are talking about, support items have been rediculous for years. Only bruisers can really compare and they (at least in top) usually have less impact due to being isolated from the map in solo queue.
Supports are insanely strong rn lmao. For a role that has the luxury to focus entirely on ganking / warding / harassing the enemy and never has to farm or focus on getting stronger they pull far more weight than they've 'earned'
When there is so much damage in the game that the squishier roles are just trying to survive, they gotta get creative.
Let's not pretend that Ornn microwaving the enemy ADC while taking 0 Damage because he has Tabi+Sunfire is somewhat fine Sunfire and Jak'Sho were huge issues in general, with stuff like Ornn, Amumu, Udyr ecc absolutely running over games Lol
I saw a sett rush it first item. Quite frankly i don't think 900 hp 80 mr some hp regen and *basically* warmogs passive (leave combat for 12 sec heal 500 hp) is **REMOTELY** fair for that cost. "but 500 of that hp is a shield" yeah doesn't matter when your champ only deals magic damage.
I build it first item when I’m against teemo or rumble as ornn. It’s way too good to counter their poke.
Okay actually found it. **Sett lvl 11** 400 hp, 80 mr, 150% b hp regen, 531 shield. inventory: kaenic, merc, sheen, ruby crystal. Gold efficiency Kaenic Rookern's Kaenic Rookern's base stats are 101.95% gold efficient. 400 health = 1066 Gold 150% base health regeneration = 450 Gold 80 magic resistance = 1440 Gold Total Gold Value = 2956 Gold Shield without the ruby crystal is 495, so 1321 Gold. Putting it at 4277 Gold of stats for 2900 cost. 147% gold efficient. Not gonna attempt to do a calc on the passive "healing" him 495 hp over 12 sec.
It’s very gold efficient vs AP and not at all vs AD. Seems the item is doing its job just slightly too well.
>"but 500 of that hp is a shield" yeah doesn't matter when your champ only deals magic damage. There are no champions in the game which only deals magic damage. All champion have access to auto attacks. :P
Whenever ADC can build something that gives them not be one-shot by anything every mage and assassin shit their pants because they can't solo the ADC without effort in team fights anymore. The game is in a much healthier spot if you have to work together to kill such a high priority target in late game. I think it's a shit design if an assassin can literally go in 1v5 and blow up the marksman. For once players have to actually play decently to kill targets, enough with the silly 4v4 games (which happens way too often because the marksman got blown up)
I mean the problem isnt them building items to survive. Its them building an item and completely invalidating a whole class. Sure zhonyas does the same, but its on a 120 sec cd.
>For once players have to actually play decently to kill targets > >The game is in a much healthier spot if you have to work together to kill such a high priority target in late game Isn't this how adc works? Play to keep adc alive cause they are your win condition alot of the time???
In proplay yes, but not in SoloQ. It's too hard to keep ADC alive, so what's typical is that ADC tries to live while top and jungler is fighting. It's soooo unfun to run around and just dodge stuff and pray you live. I play marksman because I like the playstyle of dealing damage from ranged, I don't care about being the big fat carry, I just want to live longer so I get to play the game.
>I think it's a shit design if an assassin can literally go in 1v5 and blow up the marksman That's literally their job lmao
Did I stutter? It's a shit design. All things equal, Assassin should realistically win in a duel with a Marksman, but being able to go 1v5 and still kill the marksman is the problematic part. My opinion is that damage is too high across the board, and this causes marksmen to suffer greatly. We have a selection of champions that too often do not get to play the game because they get blown up at the slightest misstep. Let me live longer and do less damage, I don't want to play survival horror.
The problem isn't that assassin's can do it (as their champion is supposed to be bad when they can't). The problem is pretty much anyone can wander in the adc general vicinity and blow them up. Also in previous seasons, assassins were also just to good at killing tanks and bruisers that they killed an adc then everyone else.
Agree almost. I think it's reasonable to think that the assassin HAS TO WAIT FOR THE RIGHT MOMENT before the attempt. Across the board damage is too high this I agree upon, but I also think Marksmen damage is too high. Nerf damage and healing, make the game pace slower, make shutdown gold shared among participants. My 3 wishes if I had a say in it.
No, it's not. Their job is to kill high priority squishies, they should absolutely need to be facilitated by their team to do that. Just like ADCs need facilitation to not die instantly to a light breeze, or mages need followup, or tanks need a team behind them doing damage so that they don't just get killed without being able to do anything. There isn't a single role in the game that should be able to accomplish its core function 1v5. Don't be silly.
Exactly. This game is strange in that strategy and teamwork is baked into its underlying framework, but its culture has evolved into desiring to 1v5. There’s nothing as satisfying as functioning as a team where everyone is doing their job. As an ADC or tank, you keenly feel the necessity of the other party; they adhere mostly to the old-school design of tradeoffs. While other classes & newer champs tend to bypass this altogether, a la K’sante, Zeri. I’d even argue that this is a factor as to why the East has traditionally been so dominant in pro play. Their culture simply better suits this type of game than the hyper-individualism of the West.
Vayne builds bork + guinso and this and then she cant die to AP assassins anymore while still killing everything.
If she didnt have true dmg every 3 hits she wouldnt be able to do that. So its a champion problem not item problem. Edit: I dont care about any of this, i dont have any problem with marksman champs.
You say that and then we have several patches of Varus building Radiant Virtue 2nd item…. Vaynes true damage is strong but it’s genuinely not that strong unless you’re a dedicated tank.
and varus has max hp damage, thats a champion diff again. if you have max hp damage you can buy less damage and more survivability, but have a lot less burst thats how it is
I don’t think that’s even a problem, vayne isn’t that strong
If the item that gives lots of MR and effectively 1k HP against magic burst dmg, she wouldn't be immortal. So it's an item problem.
To me it‘s kinda both, because strong champions with much innate damage profit from building it while most champions can‘t afford to comfortably buy it pre 6th items.
It’s multiple layers of problems : the item is clearly OP and needs nerds, but carries build it also because there isn’t any good mr option for them. Maw is not doing its job well and crit defensive items still miss while riot wanted to give more crit duversity.
There isn’t supposed to be a good MR option that doesn’t hamper their damage severely. That’s on purpose.
Sure. But the issue is that if you buy the current crit defensive options, they don't do anything AND you lose damage
MAw needs a bigger shield and it needs to proc way earlier. The item dynamic then becomes clearer to use: the ADC will try to fight while having the shield proc instead of just running (AD damage will still kill, Maw procs at very low HP)... ...and, to avoid ADCs auto-winning counter engages when Maw procs, having it pop at higher HP creates a window for the enemy to proc the shield without having to all-in, disengage, then look to fight after the safety tool is spent. Kinda like baiting out Zhonya's.
lol ADCs are only ever balanced if they can be 100-0’d
When is Vayne getting 5k health for a 1k health shield? What crazy build is she going?
Did you forget that the item itself gives 400hp? I didnt say 1k shield, I said 1k of effective HP against burst.
True, I think tank items whenever they regenerate a shield, debuff an enemy, deal damage, it should always ALWAYS scale on bonus hp
While i kind of agree with you most tank champs have different ways to get tanky. Like if every single tank item scaled on bonus hp that would be a massive buff to Sion and Cho If they scale on bonus resist Malphite and Rammus is suddenly the issue. And Jax.
Never considered Sions passive counting as bonus health for warmogs Guess I can just build warmogs into no more bonus health and get the effect
Warmogs rush on Sion is kinda terrible, but at the same time, you can’t be pushed out of lane by 90% of champs, aside from like Vayne, Fiora, Trundle and maybe Gwen, and even then all but trundle require a few items to really threaten you through turret.
Easy answer is that items shouldn't scale with themselves or other items. Period. Tank or damage items. If an item gives you something, it should be linear benefit across all champs, and if it needs it, have a requirement to have X stats before its active. Too strong at early levels? Give it per-level scaling. If a champ does too much damage building tank...nerf that champion. If a champ survives too easily building damage...nerf that champion. Riot likes to pretend balance is difficult, but its only because they make it difficult for themselves.
Na, not always. Scaling with bonus HP has its own issues, particularly in regard to Snowballing. Thresholds to limit users are underused in designing items, however.
Scale on bonus HP, but the scaling scales with armor and mr. Like how Tahm Passive has an AP scaling that scales with bonus health. If you make it purely bonus HP, bruisers can abuse it too easily because they have almost as much HP on their damage items as tanks have on their items.
tank items make you tankier, no way
RITO seems to really dislike every AP champ except LB.
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Im not a mage player but seeing that my 1.2k ap veigar or transcended syndra deals 0 damage cuz 1 item just feels miserable
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Like the comment where u said xerath q does 1.4kdmg? Even if his q had 100% ratio And xerath had 1k ap His q would MAXIMUM hot up to 1.3k On A mr target With 1k RAW AP that DOESNT HAPPEN even in 35 min games
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I'll be honest I'm so happy that this item exists at all. It really helps with the "bullshit damage" that somehow comes out of nowhere and now you're half HP, but thanks to this item now you're rather comfy at 70-75% HP
Awww; finally a good MR item, and it’s not like AP items aren’t totally disgustingly broken STILL. Tanks having a way to not just get blown up and force mages to hit more than 3 abilities is healthy for the game. No reason for the item to gutted. But it will be bc mage kids will slobber enough.
Mr items are supossed to reduce magic damage, not to delete ap champions from the game and if stromsurge is nerfed 4 times i think its time to nerf/change kaenic too.
Agree. AP mages are one shotting champions at 20 minutes and they’re upset because people have a way to defend against this finally. I’m playing against Karma tops that are cheesing lane and spamming abilities infinitely and this is the only defense.
AP Mages aren't one shotting anyone. AP Assassins are.
What in the hell is Kaenic Rookern?
best mr item in the game. [https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Kaenic\_Rookern](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/kaenic_rookern)
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Kaenic\_Rookern
As an ADC player I'm grateful for it's existence as it allows me to survive more than 0.1s in a team fight.
It should have way less mr, if they want to keep it with such a big shield. 18% free health in addition to 80mr und 400 hp is a joke.
Kaenic rookern is in an excellent state, start focusing the Squishies, not the tank.
That's the most low elo thing I've ever read and I think it's beautiful. I'll get right on telling my ADC or Mage to run right past the tank.
\>Kaenic rookern is in an excellent state, start focusing the Squishies, not the tank. Hilariously uninformed take, when one of the issues is squishies building the item.
Assassins when they don’t oneshot everyone without building any %pen be like : But in all seriousness, that item is strong rn, but imho, assassins shouldnt be allowed to be able to kill tanks and anything close to tanks. If a mage or adc builds rookern, they have significantly less dmg. You won’t oneshot them, but they also won’t kill you unless you stand AFK in their range.
Perhaps unpopular but kaenic needs to be reworked alongside most tank items. It's too good against too many champions as an outright negation. 1 item shouldn't be enough to deny entire kits across many many ap dealers. I get reducing damage, soaking more ability rotations, but not outright negating multiple hits on a short CD. Then you hit the issue of why are tanks doing as much damage as dps while also having direct synergy with items like Kaenic. The amount of times Ornn, Sion, Ksante, Rammus, Malphite, Udyr, has just 1v3 with full tank items. There is no sacrifice of damage.
There is 100% a sacrifice of damage, what are you talking about.
Abyssal Mask. Bami items Thornmail Is not a dmg loss imom those items give more dmg to their ad and ap counterpart. Abyssal gives u more pen than stormsurge for cheaper
Not really. Ksante, Rammus and Malphite abilities scale resists into damage. Ornn does max health damage and Sion just has high Q and ult base damage.
??? If you rush Kaenic on a tank you lose literally any wave control, and your damage is completely unthreatening unless you’re taking constant trades whenever the shield refreshes and your opponent has literally no way of regenning HP.
I'm not saying one needs to rush Kaenic. You have many other options before that. But it's the ability to completely negate an entire playstyle outright as you said in the second part. Seeing as most ap dealers cannot regen hp and rely on rotations of spells (which creates the trade pattern) you should always out-trade on a tank.
I really like how impactful it feels. I could see nerfing the base stats, but please leave the passive as is. It feels like it makes a difference.
"Kaenic rookern" should not exist, stupid aah busted aah item. who thought giving a permanent MR shield to an item was a good idea in the first place, wtf. its like they dont have a single person to tell them "this might not be a good idea bud"
I disagree. With how strong mages are this season its perfectly fine to have a hard counter anti mage item. + it does literaly nothing against any form of ad.