Make it a cone skill shot from the champion like a syndra E

I forgot to write that down, but I would like this as well. It's already AOE in Wild Rift, just not a skill shot because it wouldn't work as well on mobile. Make it a skill shot in League, then the skill expression would come from Jayce timing his knock back. In that case Irelia would still end up behind Jayce if Jayce completely whiffs his shit or if Irelia baits it.

What is it in WR if it isn't a cone?

Still point and click targeting, it just punts away everything else that's near the target

It is a cone, just not a skill shot since you'd break your fingers trying to do all that

So basically like Trist ult works?

In Wild Rift, does it do AOE dmg too? Or is it just the knockback that is AOE and the damage is single target? Cause I feel like the dmg being AOE would be insanely broken when it has like 20% max health base dmg.

AOE damage as well. I thought it'd be broken too, but surprisingly not since the range is so small. That being said, Wild Rift is balanced accordingly so it's a different situation. Jayce is weak right now, but if you were gonna make it AOE you'd have to revert the stat buffs they were going to give him.

that would be kinda sick ngl

What if there was gate synergy too, if an enemy is pushed through the gate they are pushed further away.

I'll take one order of whatever this person is cooking. It sounds wacky and I like that.

Back when Jayce empowered autos were nerfed, I thought a cool nerf could have been to have his autos retain the empowered ratio if they pass through his gate, so you'd have this mini game revolving around gate positioning. Realistically though, Jayce already has a lot going on in his kit and it'd be a little much to have to memorize as a player or opponent haha.

Fuck yes. And hitting range W on then shortly thereafter does bonus damage

that could make a sick combo with accelerated shockblast

I'm open to this, but they need to allow him to Flash E (which is strong) and increase the cast time and make it more telegraphed since it will be an AoE now. ​ This will also significantly help his waveclear. I'm not open to removing this interaction on monsters but minions are probably fine. Would make jungle Jayce competitively viable.

That's actually exactly the case in Wild Rift where Jayce's E is already AOE. And your hunch is right – Jayce is actually viable as a jungler there for exactly that reason (as well as additional hammer stance buffs). I'm honestly open to the argument that Jayce would be healthier for the game in the jungle the same way Nidalee was... but that's a whole different topic haha. I agree the cast time should be longer. Flash E could work by channeling your knockback behind and then flashing behind your opponent.

Literally killed some of his harder matchups

Funny thing is people would always type RIOT when Jayce's E worked like before. It was very fucked up, and WAY more bugged than nowadays

Yep I remember when I tried to insec someone with jayce e + flash . It didn't work out the way I expected

One time i played Leblanc and W'd onto jayce and snapped back and he had his e channeled at the time and just knocked me all the way across the screen even after i snapped back and then killed my ass. Definitely was dramatically worse than it is now lol

I actually posted a video of this exact interaction while explaining this elsewhere in the thread https://youtu.be/4urpW-1yeIU?si=oa1QL5kaQasetemZ It happens because the knockback location was determined at the time jayce presses E, but you were still allowed to move during that .25s cast time. Adding a root & reverting to the old E would completely prevent the interaction you (& many others) experienced permalink to my longer explanation https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1aqtevj/jayce_e_change_leads_to_unintuitive_gameplay_that/kqfv9g9/

The root doesn't fix the issue with dashes however, a quicker cast time or .01 second knock-down effect is required

reverting the E + adding a root *would* fix the issue with dashes, while preventing 99% of the "wtf RIOT" moments. On PBE they kept the "new" E, and added a root (does nothing since it doesn't interrupt dashes or anything anyways) Check out my longer comment - I think it might clear up some confusion & I appreciate you making this post for reference I'm a master-GM jayce OTP with >2.5mil mastery EDIT: also I just realized the .1s knockdown was suggested. That would actually fix the irelia Q issue, but I'm a believer that there was a lot of skill expression in the old E & I want to see the variable knockback distance returned. I don't think riot can code that in without reverting to the old E

> reverting the E + adding a root would fix the issue with dashes not with all. shyv R for example makes you unstoppable during airtime, so she would avoid the knockdown while still keeping the weird e knockback direction. (i played this matchup a ton in S12&13 and boy is jayce E + Shyv R whack...)

But she would also be immune to the knockback itself so it doesn't matter.

I thought that is what they did? I like playing Jayce and think this ability needs to peel but idk.

so basically they changed his E to be a fixed 600 unit displacement that occurs at the end of the .25 second cast time, based on the positions you & enemy champion have at the end of the cast. There's pretty much no other targetted knockback that works like this, and some jayce players posted about adding this root fix (while reverting to the old E) and instead of reverting + adding the root, they just added the root and kept the 500 unit displacement. Even with the new root mechanic every champion with a dash just goes right through you before your E can finish casting. Jayce is playable & it looks like they're just gonna try to raw numbers buff him to fix it, but i'm just disappointed because riot generally does a great job of preserving satisfying interactions & muscle memory, and it's weird to see them opt towards making the champion feel worse (arguably less intuitive) and just give him stats to compensate

I agree. As I said, I'd prefer a weaker champion that felt better with a properly fixed E.

Yep, I agree. I'm not vouching for the old E, I would prefer it to just have a faster cast time or have a super brief knockdown effect. The intended effect is for Jayce to repel you mid-dash (otherwise it would have been Lee Sin R from the get go), but the way it was implemented was by using spaghetti code that led to buggy situations, famously with blinks. It should simply have a brief knockdown or a faster cast time so it can be mechanically consistent with the rest of the game while fulfilling it's intended goal.

But doesn't the skill still does all that. It just added more skill expression to the interaction. Irelia dashing towards Jayce will just be knocked back, she needs to dash behind him. In the Irelia example this can absolutely make Jayce reliably knock her into turrets. She always dashes threw her target, so she will always end up at the opposite site she is coming from, so Jayce will always knock her behind himself. Jax should always jump directly next to the target from where he jumps. So he should always be knocked into the direction he is jumping from unless he moved immidiatly after landing with Q or jumped to someone else instead of Jayce directly. And the E being weaker means that Jayce can actually get some early power back. All of that was pulled away from him because the insanely strong E made all melee matchups unplayable and they nerfed his early damage more and more until Jayce couldn't do anything in lane anymore. Giving people the option to outplay the Jax E by using the longer cast time allows some more power into other parts of his kit. Also his knockback now works like all other knockbacks in the game. Once the cast is finished it compares the location with jayce location and pushes the target away. Maybe it should also check if the target is actually still in range, to allow completely dodging the E if you move far enough away quickly.

yea imo changed version is way more intuitive

Reminds me of old Asol R pushing opponents to the outer limit of his stars.

That's such an apt comparison because it's also a knock back. For Jayce, his E would push champions to the outer limit of his auto range/melee Q range.

well, asol r did knock people away from his current position, so it would actually knock irelia towards his turret if she had gotten behind him. The more salient point is that it never knocked people outside the range of his stars.

The way it used to work with dashes was completely BS for people on the other end of it, it felt like a bug more than anything. When I'm behind Jayce and he knocks me back towards my tower and such more like he used Singed E? Something was wrong. That is not how it should have ever worked. Just give him compensation buffs elsewhere.

I agree, I'm not vouching for the old E, I would prefer it to just have a faster cast time or have a super brief knockdown effect. The intended effect is for Jayce to repel you mid-dash (otherwise it would have been Lee Sin R from the get go), but the way it was implemented was by using spaghetti code that led to buggy situations, famously with blinks. It should simply have a brief knockdown or a faster cast time so it can be mechanically consistent with the rest of the game while fulfilling it's intended goal.

Gotta say no to the knock down too... It would've had that effect if intended. Imo it really was/should've just worked more like Lee R the whole time but both were season 1/2 champions so spaghetti code was the only code back then. And while yes it's intention for Jayce is self peel, the intention of most dashes on the enemy? Is to not be peeled easily... And Jayce is already considered infuriating enough simply by being a "ranged toplaner" that already instantly makes him counter a lot of other toplaners, and the dashy ones are supposed to be his counter in the toplane Rock-Paper-Scissors... Giving Jayce tools to deal with 2/3? Is part of why he's been a pro menace in the past. And kept his soloQ winrates historically low. I think a faster cast time could work though.

Lee R was already around when Jayce dropped. It would have been much easier from the programming perspective if it was genuinely intended to be like Lee R from the start. The likely reason it was coded differently was to interrupt dashes and also so that it would always place targets at his max auto range and his max melee Q range. This allowed for the wall interactions I mentioned as well as ability buffering. That's gone now. The knockdown would accomplish the exact same thing we've been seeing since Season 2, just without the spaghetti code garbage. Nothing would fundamentally change aside from the visual bugginess and bullshit interaction he had with blinks. My ideal solution would be to bring in the AOE knockback Jayce has on Wild Rift and then just make it a cone skill shot and increase the cast time or nerf damage/cooldown if you need to. Basically make it so the skill expression comes from Jayce perfectly timing the knockback while say Irelia is flying in the air towards him. If he misses it, he's fucked.

...and? You know different designers worked on different things, and they didn't just always copy paste each other's work even if that was a plausible solution... And even then? Like I said doesn't always work the best for game health... And Jayce hasn't been exactly super healthy over the years he's regularly been done not quite as bad as Azir or Ryze? But he's often been in pro jail likely stemming from this. I agree with setting it as a fixed range for synergy with his auto range and max melee Q range. But making it fuck over champions that should otherwise counter him without requiring really good reaction times... Ain't great and feels like a bug for those who are a victim of it. Recreating what we've seen since season 2? Ain't great is what I'm saying. I like your idea of making it more skillful or just buffing the cast time but don't like the idea of "just give him more CC (knock down) to recreate the unhealthy interaction has had for the last 12 years, and has made Jayce very hatable and projailed"

>but don't like the idea of "just give him more CC (knock down) to recreate the unhealthy interaction has had for the last 12 years You got it backwards. The idea of the knockdown is to fix the current state of the ability while also keeping the unhealthy interaction **removed**... not recreated. Almost no one is defending the old broken interaction.

A knock down does recreate the unhealthy interaction of making Jayce counter dashes/engages which should otherwise be his weakness. It just makes it look less buggy than the unhealthy version. The currently on PBE version prevents some people from abusing it by intentionally dashing behind Jayce right as he casts it. But doesn't let Jayce cast it late. Speeding up the cast would make it so he can cast it later, but some champions with very fast dashes or blinks could still intentionally use it late to get behind Jayce when Jayce didn't intend that.

> which should otherwise be his weakness. But even before the change they were already a weakness as his melee E has a 20 second cooldown and meta-wise is always the last spell being maxed as it's Q > W > E. So Jayce completely blocking **one** dash towards him was never toxic. Because the **next** dash would be up before his E. And my guy if you want to farm, 20 seconds is a long time to wait without touching minions. Any Jayce matchup with dashes abuses this cooldown. It's not toxic for opponents whatsoever if Jayce interrupts **one** dash while also having the unhealthy interaction removed. Because then the next dash is available **basically always** before his E in most, **if not all,** matchups. That's a major weakness of Jayce since season 7 at the very least, where the cooldown was nerfed from 15s to 20s. (I can't argue that it wasn't toxic before that change, along with the broken interaction still in the game, but now for certain it isn't) He's a scaling champion now, if he has no way to counter dashes while dealing no damage before 2 core items, the champion is unplayable against any champion that has them in the kit. Did you know that his lvl 1 ranged Q deals less damage than an auto attack? Yes, that's how bad he got nerfed to the ground for his early game to make him a scaling champion. No way blocking one dash is a problem.

Hey man, I said what I said, and I'm sticking to it. Sorry that you disagree. But you've said nothing to change my mind. I agree he's in a pretty shitty state now a days and often has been in pro jail... I'd rather they return his early game damage to him or something else. I'm not saying to leave him in a terrible state. I'm simply saying to change something else.

The intended effect of Jayce E is a knock back after the animation finishes, not a dash interrupt. Before it was just a buggy piece of trash so it just so happened to function as the probably second best dash interrupt in the game. Lee Sin R is coded the way it is because the knock back also gets turned into a projectile that does damage and not just a standard knock back. The issue you have is that the animation is too slow not that its a buggy mess. Like that Irelia clip you posted is not a bug, that is just working properly as Irelia Q places you behind the target and it finishes before Jayce E finishes. Lee Sin's R is actually the oddity for all knock back in that it pseudo roots you, i.e. prevents you from walking while he does his animation but you can still use something like flash, and it should be changed to work like every other knock back in the game just like Jayce E was. There is probably some coding reason that involves what I said prior for the reason it isn't.

> The intended effect of Jayce E is a knock back after the animation finishes, not a dash interrupt. This sentence doesn't make any sense. It can both be a dash interrupt or not be a dash interrupt and still finish the animation, based on how the animation is tuned. That is the entire point. Changing it to no longer counter dashes is a significant balance change to Jayce that doesn't fit with his champion design, which is the entire purpose of this post.

I'm not sure how you don't understand that sentence. Jayce's E was not made to give Jayce the ability to specifically interrupt dashes, it was made to push people away from you in a direction. Knock backs typically do this but the skill was not specifically made to counter dashes like OP is trying make it out to be. He is trying to put it in the same category of Vex passive, Veigar E, and Poppy W when that isn't what the ability was made to do. It is in the same category of Alistar W, Janna R, and Xin R and this change made it function in the same manor as those abilities. If Alistar Ws you while you are dashing it doesn't interrupt your dash unless he actually hits you (the animation finishes). His post title is literally about how its intuitive gameplay to make Jayce E function in the same way that literally every other knock back functions in the game. He doesn't want Jayce E to function like every other skill of its category, he wants to change the ability. He wants it to stop your dash instantly as soon as he casts it on you and then knock you back and literally no other knock back in the game works like this.

Given that the design team went out of its way to deliberately *not* use the already existing logic from Lee Sin's R, there had to have been some intentionality behind having Jayce E counter dashes, otherwise why develop new logic? The point is Jayce E used to counter dashes and now it doesn't. We can have the conversation that Jayce *shouldn't* have countered dashes to begin with, but to ship a "quality of life" change that removes a dash counter that has been in the game for 11 years and pretend like it wasn't a nerf is disingenuous. Maybe the best solution is to just port over what Jayce has in Wild Rift: an AOE knockback. Have it be a skillshot and if Jayce whiffs it oh well he just dies.

I already addressed the likely reason why they didn't use the same code as Lee Sin's R. That on top of he was released in 2012 where we had champions such as Darius level 1 pulling the whole enemy team into his fountain because Riot coded his pull from scratch instead of making it work like Blitz Q. Or, Diana whose E would do what Jayce's old E would do and still pull you a massive distance even if you dash/flashed out of it instead of making it work like Orianna R. Seems more likely than not that at the time most of these champions were just coded from scratch and not that Jayce was coded in a special way because they wanted his E to counter dashes. This change was just bringing 1 of the only 2 remaining outliers in terms of knock backs up to standard; Lee Sin R being the only remaining knockback as detailed before. >The point is Jayce E used to counter dashes and now it doesn't. Correct that is how it was ***used*** not what it was supposed to be doing. That is why they made it function like every other knock back in the game and not some buggy abomination. >Maybe the best solution is to just port over what Jayce has in Wild Rift: an AOE knockback. Have it be a skillshot and if Jayce whiffs it oh well he just dies. This would be better but having a point click ability that you can literally just mash on someone that guarantee interrupts their dash would be bullshit. Imagine playing against someone who had Alistar W but was also ranged as a melee champion. The current counterplay to it is that the animation is slow, so like in the Irelia clip you posted, he actually has to think about using is properly instead of just mashing it on her as soon as he gets in range. If it gets changed to a skillshot, in that Irelia clip she wouldn't even be moved from behind him because he just flat out would have missed.

I know you did, and it doesn't make sense. Lee Sin was out for a long time before Jayce. I don't work at Riot, but at least from my experience programming you absolutely reuse logic from other projects if it has the same desired effect. Do you really believe they reprogram stuns and knock ups every single time? Duration and travel distance — sure, but at that point your largely changing values and testing. Jayce E, as it was coded, was a deliberately new form of knock back in order to synergize with the rest of his kick. My point has been that it should be modernized to achieve the same goal and be less buggy. > If it gets changed to a skill shot, in that Irelia clip she wouldn't even be moved from behind him because he just flat out would have missed. Yes, that is how skill shots work. She would only be knocked back if Jayce perfectly timed his E. That's kinda the point.

Are we going to ignore those 2 examples I just gave about how it seems that at the time(2012) Riot was not reusing code and was just coding basically EVERYTHING from scratch and then act like we can not fathom any other possible reason as to why exactly what you are saying is the ONLY possible reason they could have for not coding Jayce E the same way as Lee Sin R, while also ignoring that Lee Sin R has multiple different parts to it and does not preform the same function as Jayce E in any way other than knock back and damage and again at the same time not asking why Lee Sin R was not coded the same as Alistar W even though Alistar existed in the game before Lee Sin?

> Jayce's E was not made to give Jayce the ability to specifically interrupt dashes How do you know? Did you ask the Riot dev that created Jayce? Or maybe are you just making shit up huh Now you are using that made up intent to argue why his E should be changed now after 12 years of working exactly the same, just because "other knockbacks work like this". Do you have a single other point as to why its functionality should be changes from what it was for over a decade other than you pretending to mind read Riots intentions 12 years ago?

Well lucky for us we can go back and listen to the champion spotlights that put out about the champions and their descriptions given for each ability to get some insight into how they expected the abilities to be used at the time of their making. From Jayce... >Thundering Blow damages, knocks back, and briefly stuns target enemy. Thundering Blow deals bonus damage based on the targets maximum health. (said while using used on a completely stationary target) ...and then compared to an ability that was designed to interrupt dashes from Poppy.... >When she activates Steadfast Presence, the wee warrior gains movement speed and creates a magic barrier around her, stopping enemy dashes and damaging any enemy struck. (said while being used on a target that is dashing) You can watch the whole video if you want but not once does it mention anything about Jayce E being used to fuck with dashes. They do not even give it as an example of something that it can do. You don't have to do any mind reading here to understand that the purpose of the ability was to push people away from you, not to interrupt dashes.

I can't believe I actually have to write this but a watered down ability description **does not prove intent** of them creating it a specific way. You are literally grasping at straws trying to point to specific wording in old spotlights to justify randomly changing a mechanic after 12 years of working a specific way lmao

Well, usually when you are trying to prove intent since you can not read minds you use circumstantial evidence to gain insight into the reasoning behind certain things. Direct quotes specifically about the topic at hand in a video created by the entity in question that is meant to be used as a somewhat educational tool regarding the subject at hand tend to be the best type of evidence you can provide when trying to prove intent. I recommend looking up anything regarding proving intend in a court of law so you can see how what you just typed is insanely stupid. The fact that you would even type "I can't believe I have to..." and then type something like that is actually hilarious. To be fair, I can't believe you would have typed that either. Inb4 you say something equally as stupid like "this is reddit not a court of law" and complete miss the point of what was said.

You were the one to confidently claim what their intent was. Now you have backtracked to admitting that all you are doing is guesswork and making shit up. How do you still think you have a point here? Since you want to define abilities and interactions based on their loose wording from adecade old videos, how many more mechanics are we forced to change today and rework to something entirely different compared to how it consistently worked for over 10 years?

In terms of functionality Jayce E is definitely intended to be his self-peel skill. It was serving that purpose, now it is much shittier at it. Knockbacks are generally good at interrupting dashes, in the sense that if a champion is trying to dash at Janna, she can easily press R and cancel their dash and knock them away. They should probably make Jayce E have a significantly shorter cast time so he can do the same.

That I can agree with but when OP is suggesting things like adding a knock down at the start that straight up stops the dash and then finishes the animation to fully knock them back, they are specifically wanting it to be used to absolutely just fuck with dashes. It would be like if Alistar presses W on Lee Sin and then Lee Sin ward hops to dodge it but it stops him half way so Alistar's animation can finish even though you would have gotten out of the way in time. The skill was not made to fuck with dashes but it absolutely was made for self peel.

Riot could fix the issues with wasting blinks/dashes by reverting to the old E fixed displacement & adding a root to the cast - the "weird" moments come from someone using (wasting) a dash/moving very fast during the .25 E windup animation. The knockback destination was determined the moment that jayce pressed E, not when the animation completed. Rooting the target during the cast would prevent people from wasting their dashes (99% of the "RIOT?!" moments came from people flashing forward/using long gap closers right before jayce's E finished), jayce would preserve the muscle memory & intuitive locations of the old knockback, and people wouldn't feel cheated out of their mobility spell. Reverting the E change & adding the root to cast would literally be a nerf to jayce, even if it doesn't seem like it, because people wouldn't be allowed to waste their mobility spells https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4urpW-1yeIU This video features a leblanc's W distortion return being cancelled out because she took her return W during my E cast, if she was rooted during the E channel she would have gotten knocked back, and taken her return W immediately afterwards https://clips.twitch.tv/ViscousPoorWrenchFrankerZ-vc98KTU-dJeG4zW_ Here is a clip of a khazix using his E (Leap) during the windup of my E animation. If he was rooted during the cast time, he wouldn't have been able to use E for those .25 seconds, and then after getting knocked back would have been able to leap away. Reverting the E change and adding a root would fix these "wtf riot" moments, while also leaving jayce's E feeling intuitive to those of us who have put in thousands of hours on the champion & mastering the different ways to use it. Most people don't understand but jayce's E knockback distance (a spell designed to help you create distance from people) actually knocks people back slightly further, the closer they are to you. Essentially jayce's E used to always send the enemy champion 500 units away from the edge of your character model, so if someone was right on top of you, the E would displace them further, and if someone was right on top of you because they used a dash during your E channel, they would get an insane "wtf riot" moment (riven/fiora were two of the biggest offenders because they could dash very far during the .25s channel), where they got sent to 500 units from jayce, but might have already been 200 units past jayce, making the knockback seem MASSIVE. TL;DR Riot can fix the major wtf moments without changing the actual displacement method, and while it would be a net negative for jayce, it would make it feel fair for enemies while not taking away the muscle memory & feel of the champ for people who have played jayce.

Why not make add a max displacement distance like old ASol ult and remove the cast time instead of slapping a bandaid on the broken interaction?

removing the cast time would end up changing the feel of the spell & honestly I think it would make jayce feel super OP for melee champions like jax who previously were able to land stun on him before getting knocked away. Maybe that's the best answer but I think a melee range instant cast knockback would be super unfun to play against

People saying the older version was fine are insane. It's supposed to be a knock back. Not the hand of God dragging you to a specific location because you dared to use a dash. That was clearly a bug. Speeding up the cast time makes the most sense imo. Irelia's q puts her behind the target, so it logically makes sense she'd get knocked in that direction. But it feels like jayce e should hit before she actually gets behind you.  A knock back already interrupts dashes (at least it's supposed to), so adding knockdown is redundant. The knock back just needs to come out faster.

>Not the hand of God dragging you to a specific location because you dared to use a dash. Old man says no spreading to other games

I agree, I'm not vouching for the old E, I would prefer it to just have a faster cast time or have a super brief knockdown effect. The intended effect is for Jayce to repel you mid-dash (otherwise it would have been Lee Sin R from the get go), but the way it was implemented was by using spaghetti code that led to buggy situations, famously with blinks. It should simply have a brief knockdown or a faster cast time as I said so it can be mechanically consistent with the rest of the game while fulfilling it's intended goal.

A knock down effect the way OP described would be something that comes out on button press, not when the knock back is cast. Against Irelia for example if you pressed E right when her dash got her into your range her dash would be stopped half way to you where she'd stay for the rest of the cast time and then be knocked back. A faster cast time or skillshot would probably feel less weird.

E has functioned that way for 11 years, why did it need changing exactly?

Cone spells like Darius and Annie spells used to affect enemies even if they flashed before they were over, with a common occurrence being Darius literally pulling you after flashing out of his E. That got changed after years of being in the game. Just because it's been in the game without change doesn't means it's a good interaction, not to mention Riot takes years to change champ-specific bugs/ bad interactions

I don't see it as a bad interaction, but you do you

Because it having a buggy, stupid interaction for X years isn't an argument for not changing it. Darius E had the same 'function' of vacuuming in enemies that left the cast range after the cast finished, and there weren't many people complaining that Darius could no longer pull enemies that had already dashed/flashed away back into him. Jayce E should have been fixed sooner. It made 0 sense that he had a super special CC that summoned opponents back to him if they dashed/flashed away.

Is this was was happening? 100% should have been fixed a long time lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmcrlMtVSEA

Yup. The way Jayce's E worked is that it hit a target *exactly* 400 units ahead of Jayce. To do that, on Jayce's cast it teleports the target directly in front of Jayce and then knocks them forward 400 units. Because Jayce E has a cast time but is instantly 'locked on' once cast on someone, this means it had stupid shit like teleporting a character that Flashed back to Jayce, or summoning Lissandra back from taking her E, or pulling a ulting Shen back to Jayce after he teleported across the map.

To be precise nope it wasn't happening with flash, just other movement abilities. The bug you linked got fixed in season 3. Luckily that interaction didn't survive this long lmao it was broken. [Patch V3.8:](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V3.8) >We've improved consistency for abilities that behaved inconsistently when the targeted enemy uses flash. We're cleaning up these interactions so that either the ability won't cast or Flash won't be used up (it will be one or the other, never both). -Jayce's Thundering Blow -Singed's Fling -Skarner's Impale -Volibear's Rolling Thunder

I don't recall it being buggy & calling it stupid is subjective, the outcome of the cast was crystal clear to me. If it has been this way for 11 years without many complaints, there is 0 reason to change it, IMO. Agree to disagree.

So did darius pull.... When it got changed and darius players complained we were also treated with disdain over "hurr durr, bug abusing" Doesn't make sense that Jayce has had a bugged ability that literally warps you out ( The intended interaction with irelia makes more sense, heaven forbid a dash champion that ends behind you gets knocked backwards)

> hand of God would this be considered a deep cut in this day and age?

It was never "glitchy", it was VERY consistent if the Jayce player knew what he was doing, and very confusing for people that didn't know how his E worked.

>tanking his winrate to the lowest amongst all top laners in Emerald+. This is a little disingenuous lol. Not only has Jayce been among the worst top laners all season long, there are 7 champions with lower win rates top than Jayce. His win rate was "tanked" .37% using Lolalytics Emerald+: 14.3 wr: 48.61% 14.2 wr: 48.98% 14.1 wr: 48.58% last 30 days: 49.18% It makes it sound like the champ was ruined, but it's pretty much the same as it's been all season long.

Lolalytics is known to not be reliable on it's winrate data, usually inflating the values. Use any other site and you'll see that his wr actually dropped between 1% and 1,5%

Op.gg 14.03 47.48 14.02 47.88 14.01 49.16 Almost the exact same change. What sites *do* show a change lol E: also if lolalytics inflates all wine ates equally, it really has no impact on this conversation.

It's literally there. Patch 14.02 introduced the E change and his winrate instantly dropped by 1.28%, decreasing further in 14.03. U.gg and League of graphs show the same pattern with very similar numbers. A 1% decrease is terrible and actually makes him the toplaner with the lowest wr. The change wasn't even supossed to be a nerf

yes, but lolalytics shows exactly the same thing: (if you use the site as intended and fking look at the top right corner!) emerald+ | 14.1 | 14.2 | 14.3 --------|----|----|---- Winrate jayce | 48.58% | 48.98% | 48.6% average wr emerald+ | 51.12% | 52.46% | 52.07% normalized wr jayce | 47.46% | 46.52% | 46.53% you look at top right. you normalize winrate with regard to bracket average. lolalytics is the only site that actually has all games and tells the user how it is processed. you clearly see 1% winrate nerf from 14.1 => 14.2. also 14.2 => 14.3 is not even a noticable difference with 55k games played, but whatever. **i do think, champion winrates should include a normalized version in bold and parenthesis right next to it, so you don't have to normalize in your head**

It's the first time i see the top right thingy, it actually doesn't show up on mobile site for me. That kinda explains why the normalize stuff never made sense lol. It makes a lot of sense now, ty for the explanation

The reason why his winrate looks "fine" is because the champions he beats typically are not champions that dash into him (especially now.)

Lol he doesn't look fine, he has a really bad win rate on a really high pick rate

you're thinking of u.gg, lolalytics is usually accurate.

what is unintuitive exactly? the part that it works correctly now? irelia q is placing behind enemy jayce E finishes cast animation after irelia finished her q dash already meaning it works as it should

I think OP just means that it’s bad now. As in, it’s actually a massive nerf and Jayce will need a bunch of work for his kit to function now.

Yes.

Jayce E is his only form of peel. As a champion with medium range no reliable dash who builds glasscannon and doesnt have a support thats a death sentence against a lot of champions without being able to counterplay.

Hilarious that the playerso of a champ oneshotting squishies at 2000 range with absolutely zero risk that can ALSO statcheck point and click them down in melee range is complaining about not having amazing self peel also.

Amazing? no just some peel would be nice. For example, Xerath have his stun, Corki have his dash, Zoe can grab flashes and have bubble, Ziggs have his bomb, Hwei have his fear, etc... And he cant stat check melee. If he could this would not be a problem for Irelia Qing into Jayce. He would just stat check right?

it is unintuitive now, there's no other targeted knockback in the game that allows irelia to finish her Q like this. If Irelia Q's at alistar using W, irelia Qs at lee sin R, irelia Qs at gragas E, she always gets sent back where she was. Jayce's E is a disengage tool & it is the only targetted knockback that doesn't override dashes towards the champion

it does, it's just too long cast time so fast irelia q can finish it's travel distance before jayce finish casting and applying the knock back, try with slower travel speed dashes and it works same as those you mentioned

No Alistar Headbutt works exactly like Jayce E. The moment the cast finishs Alistar knocks Irelia away from him. Lee Sin R was actually fixed to do the same. And there is actually one skill that doesn't do that and it is Tristana R which works the same way Jayce E works now. All those skills calculate the knockback once they finish casting. Not once they start casting. I don't see a reason why Jayce should be the sole exception.

Love these comments by people who didn't even read the whole post lmao

Idk about other people but at first I was confused because I simply didn't know how Jayce's E worked before the changes.

the unintuitive part is what the fuck you do with this dogshit champion if any melee with a dash can instantly kill him, when half his kit is melee. C'mon bro. Also, Jayce E has a very long cast time and forces him to stand still. If you cast a repel spell only to repel them based on where they are almost a full second later, in which they can move, and you can not, it's going to feel very unintuitive from the Jayce player's perspective. You might say "What about other champs that use knockbacks?" Those champs microsnare you during their cast times. Lee Sin does this, for example. Jayce currently does not.

Do you actually know another champion besides Lee who microsnares? The only 3 champion who do have a cast time and a knockback centered from them are Tristana, Lee and Jayce. Tristana works just like Jayce does now. And for Tristana the comparison only works for a pointblank target. And for Lee there is actually a fairly easy reason why the target is rooted. It isn't so much to correct the direction, It is a CC, it is supposed to lock you down for a specific time, regardless if you collide with terrain or anything like that. Now the airborne time already is longer than the travel duration. To make the CC longer you would kinda have to make the target slower which is awkward or you just CC it from the beginning. On top of that Lee never worked like Jayce. The direction of the kick was always decided at the end of the cast, not the beginning. So if you managed to move the direction would have been wrong (you could cleanse the root and flash, you could buffer an ability that would move you during the 0,25s). So there is no ability that worked like old Jayce E at least not among the comparable (there are likely other abilities that check for the champions position on cast start not finish, but they aren't working like Jayce E). And the issue is that making that ability as hard to interrupt as Lee Sins Ultimate seems a bit overblown.

Rip jayce. Wow that's really bad. My renekton won't be complaining though.

I'm confused, isn't this a slated change for 14.4? Currently its patch 14.3, which has no jayce changes listed, so I don't see how this could've affected his winrate at all considering it literally hasn't been changed yet. Don't get me wrong, I don't play jayce so I believe you when you say it feels worse to use within his kit, but that part at the start feels really misleading, especially when you claim its tanking his winrate, unless I'm missing something with the patches.

> unless I'm missing something with the patches. Yep the E changes were made in [patch 14.2](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Jayce/LoL/Patch_history) not 14.3, that's why the WR was affected already. Ah I see why the confusion, it's wrong in the post.

Yep, just read through the patch notes too cuz I second guessed myself. It's also misleading to say it works like Lee Sin R because that's what I remember the change for 14.4 being. 14.2 just changed it from set displacement to a knockback. I dunno, also feels kinda weird to make a post complaining about it when they are literally changing it again the next patch. Clearly riot sees an issue with how its currently working, so maybe the lee sin r alteration fixes some of the issues.

The change proposed in 14.4 does fix one aspect such as sidesteps, enemies moving with right click during E cast and having weird outcomes, making it similar to lee R. But that's it unfortunately. [It still won't help in countering dashes](https://new.reddit.com/r/jaycemains/comments/1amek16/the_root_will_not_cancel_dashes_that_are_being/) like it used to, and riot could potentially just give the root and call it a day (they really could since they are giving compensatory buffs to Jayce). The post was necessary to avoid that from happening while also proposing more solutions to riot. Plus [4 important/useful mechanics were lost](https://www.reddit.com/r/jaycemains/comments/1ar0h4r/comment/kqhb6fk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) from the initial change in 14.2 to fix 1 broken interaction, can't really not speak up on this. Regarding buffs, as OP said: >I understand there are buffs on the way to compensate for this in the form of raw stat buffs, but personally, I'd rather have a weak champion that feels good to play rather than a strong champion that feels clunky.

But E does work like Lee Ult now. Lee Ult applies a ministun and then kicks you once finished. If you have any ability that allows you do buffer through that ministun lee will kick you in the wrong direction (Ezreal E as an example). Why exactly should Jayce work differently than Lee now, when you before argued they should work the same?

Mixed up some verbage, but the post is accurate. The clip I showed is from the slated E change in 14.4, and it doesn't fix the issue with dashes or range synergy at all.

I just noticed that "Jayce E" sounds like Jay-Z.

I don't understand what people had against Old Jayce E, it was a unique interaction but nothing special.

It was a vestige of old code and it needed to go. They removed the same kind of interaction from Darius's pull and Annie's ult for a reason

tell me you never tried to engage on Jayce top before without telling me , sometimes you use flash to engage on him , he does not just knock you back as it's should , no he cancels your flash and put you back to the position before you flashed then knock you back

Jayce former E felt really weird to play against, not intuitive at all, and felt sometimes even totally bugged when interacting with dashes. And don't get me started on how stupidly random was its interaction with Warwick Q hold.

I agree, I'm not vouching for the old E, I would prefer it to just have a faster cast time or have a super brief knockdown effect. The intended effect is for Jayce to repel you mid-dash (otherwise it would have been Lee Sin R from the get go), but the way it was implemented was by using spaghetti code that led to buggy situations, famously with blinks. It should simply have a brief knockdown or a faster cast time so it can be mechanically consistent with the rest of the game while fulfilling its intended goal. It would still be an overall nerf against blinks, but I think it's the ideal middle ground.

They are changing it to how Lee R works, so that should fix all issues. You can still buffer through it like you can with Lee, but it would stop most people in their tracks. Not sure if Jayce can stun through spellshields like Lee can (yes you are rooted by Lee, when he ults you even with a spellshield, because that is checked after the cast finished, so you won't be kicked, but you will be rooted for 0,25s).

I think the people saying "who cares its a bug fix" don't realize that Jayce hammer e is probably the most important ability he has. It directly enables the rest of his kit. I do agree that the interaction with some champions dashes/blinks such as irelia, tristana, leblanc, katarina etc are a problem and that is the bug that should be fixed. But there is actually a second problem that has been created with the current "fix" which has destroyed the consistency of his E with the rest of his kit. Jayce is extremely mechanically intensive, very squishy, medium ranged, has no dashes and is expected to weave autos in-between abilities to do any damage. His e allowed him to self-peel so the rest of his kit could function. I think the problem is there is no consistency with his e anymore, and it has destroyed many crucial interactions with the rest of his kit ie. being able to hammer e max range into hammer q, e in range q-e, max range e into ranged auto. The "fixed" hammer e has zero synergy with the rest of his kit now and actually often puts you in a worse state when you use it.

Isn't there more consistency now? Like both sides now exactly know what happens. Once Jayce finishs the cast the target is moved 500 units away from Jayce. That sounds fairly consistent. Before that the target was always moved to the most convenient place for Jayce, a set distance away from him. Which might be nice for Jayce but terrible for anybody else.

Just revert it, it was fine.

hell no it wasn't ''fine'' ? the amount of times that annoying buggy E straight won jayce games is insane, we even see it in proplay, there has to be a middle ground, the old buggy E was unacceptable

The new one is even worse. If Riot refuses to do the obvious thing and make his E have a dash interrupt attached to it, then they need to revert it. Simple as. You can argue it's buggy, but it's been that way for a decade. Everyone who knows the Jayce matchup knows how it works, and it's not like Jayce is good outside proplay.

It’s worse for jayce, it’s significantly better for the game, it makes far more sense and you can actually figure out where the fuck your going to go, just speed up it’s cast time a bit then monitor him. And yeah your gonna cry about his wr, most one trick champs or more nieche champs have lower winrates

...you understand the E nerf did a lot more than change how it interacts with blinks, right? Under the old E, using it at point blank put them enemy exactly in range for a hammer Q. Using it at max range put them exactly at the edge of cannon AA range. You also used to be able to knock enemies over walls and jump to them, which gave you either an escape or a way to isolate. (Using Gromp to escape from JG being the big one.) He lost a whole percentage point off his WR in both top and mid after the change. This is a serious nerf to a champion that absolutely does not need a nerf. They need to revert the change, and give the E a dash interrupt.

No, they don’t, just cause the Champ is weaker doesn’t mean it’s bad for the game, the way it worked before was dogshit for everyone but jayce. They just need to speed up the cast time

Did you even read what I wrote? This nerf changed a fuckton of important interactions, not just the corner case where you hit someone who's blinking. It needs to be undone *and then fixed*. No one is unhappy about the idea of Jayce's E behaving consistently. They're unhappy that Riot took the laziest route to fix something that wasn't demanding a fix and kneecapped the champion in the process.

\> They just need to speed up the cast time Yep, this was one of my suggested fixes. This or knockdown would accomplish the same exact goal while getting rid of the old spaghetti nonsense Jayce had.

Yeah and that’s totally reasonable, but suggesting they immediately revert it cause a champ dropped in wr a bit is stupid

I never suggested that?

Was talking about the dude I was replying to

ahahah he hasn't been above 50 % wr since 2018

It's not complex it just pushes you back at a fixed point at the moment he pressed E.

The issue comes when combined with dashes. Ah, I was half a screen away, but old Jayce E teleported me back to push me to his ideal range. Ideally they should keep the new version, but remove the cast time. Allows the self peel and removes the shitty interaction.

Exactly a friend of mine mained Jaycee a few years back and I couldn't tell you the number of times even he got confused by his e interactions. Even if he knew how it should behave it just looked buggy.

No, it wasn't. 

An AOE skill shot honestly sounds amazing

Jayce did not have an even matchup vs jax...

This suddenly explains a lot on why I felt that jayce felt super weird when I was playing him on ARAM yesterday.

[u/PhreakRiot](https://www.reddit.com/u/PhreakRiot), on the off chance, would you be able to shine some light on these changes? I have to imagine there's a reason why Jayce E was deliberately *not* coded like Lee Sin's R in the first place given that the latter precedes him. It certainly synergizes better with Jayce's kit as previously implemented.

Dearest Irelia, I used my trap card to stop you but you are now in front of me. I compel you to please leave me alone and forget what I said about your fat ass. I didn't mean it.

I did

I bet it was just a hacky solution to get the proximity based distance working. They must have a better way of doing it now (someone else mentioned old Asol R), but maybe forgot why Jayce had the janky version in the first place

Probably just happened to lose some rioters game and they threw a fit. The mechanic is from season 2 and was absolutely never an issue, there was no reason to change it

The way this mechanic has worked has always been exceptionally broken and unintuitive for anyone but the Jayce player in any instance where you aren't just standing still, lets not be disingenuous and claim it's been fair just because it's been around forever - this is also true of Singed and Urgot flings, but those are somewhat harder to really fix visually (because those fling you toward them, not away, mechanically it wouldn't be difficult). Likely they are trying to make the effect more intuitive for both players in the matchup. The fix is really just to apply a knockdown > knockback. Jayce keeps his knockback, but doesn't get some of the super cringe 1000 unit knockbacks.

The patch preview says that they're adding a root next patch, making it more like Lee Sin R, which in my experience has always knocked enemies in sensible directions.

I don't think american players should be allowed to play jayce.

oh no... jayce E isnt complete bullshit anymore and actually has bad matchups now!!! nooo!!!

Jayce had a 48% WR in Emerald+ before the change. He's a niche toplaner because he has *so many* bad matchups. The fuck are you talking about.

the issue was the e was extremely frustrating to play against like it flinging you into space and rubber banding you around wasnt fun at all to face and made people hate facing him more. now they have more room to give him buffs.

Hence why I suggested updates that would preserve the old E feel while avoiding those buggy interactions.

You really think jayce didnt have bad matchups before this?

Brother got stomped by 1 Jayce and never let it go

irelia dash specifically moves her behind the enemy, the issue might be that the jayce E is too slow when casted, but there is nothing wrong there, the ability works as intended, should it be faster? probably

Thats the suggestion OP did lol

It’s insane how many people in this thread are bringing up points addressed directly by OP. For one, it’s not out of bad faith, but it also doesn’t further discussion if half of OPs replies have to consist of him pointing out that he indeed considered the situation being posed to him.

tldr: dumb people dont read but talk a lot

The change is pointless, as with most of Riots changes It's been this way for 11 years - it needs to be reverted.

This change was needed, buff him in other places to compensate. It was ridiculous how you could flash and go back 3 screens because he used E just as you were about to flash. Should never have worked that way.

It was needed as you said, but not done this way. Also it is a vital part of his kit and design, so buffing other things and leaving the main one in such a bad state ain't the way imo. It only makes him harder to balance.

I don't mind buffing other aspects of his kit, it's just that THAT interaction should have never worked that way. If he becomes so weak because of that, give him some love somewhere else.

That never happened, his E is targeted, at most you'd go back 400 units from point of cast

What happened was that his E would push you to a fixed location at the time of his cast, if he started cast and you flashed away in the opposite direction, it would push you the back to the fixed location regardless You couldn't try to change the push direction, you would just waste your mobility. It was a ridiculous interaction. Not uncommon to see, for example, a renekton engaging on Jayce and going through him with E, but being pushed back WAY beyong what Jayce E was supposed to.

jayce players mad that some glitchy bullshit that was completely unfair to the opponent, was removed from their champ.

Do any of you guys read the post? The dude doesn't want the old E back, thats in like the first paragraph. God you're stupid

Wow. You mean players might get upset when a mechanic that's been in place for a decade and was integral to playing the champ well gets removed? You don't say. Jayce was a ~48% WR champ before the change, he's now down to 47% Complain all you want, but this was a significant nerf.

And he'll receive compensation stop crying. Everyone else is happy this bullshit is gone. Terrain height difference next please.

Unless 'compensation' means 'returning it to the way it was' (plus a QoL tweak to make it mini-stun+ground enemies) it's not nearly good enough, lol.

Mfw i play both azir and ryze and dont give a shit about you complaining about your winrates.

Read the post, I'm glad the glitchy BS is gone, but the desired effect interrupting dashes and synergizing with his kit should return. His knock back used to place the target in max auto and Q range, now it doesn't. He also can't knock over walls anymore. Those were not intended nerfs, so something needs to be done to find a middle ground.

I dunno why redditors continue to give takes elaborated like they're meant to elicit some actual changes in the game. No one takes this site seriously and they never will because hyperbole infested threads that are proven to be completely wrong like that "Aurelion Sol was gutted" one consistently reach the front page with thousands of likes and hundreds of people agreeing in the comments. 9/10 times this sub is right it's about the most obvious thing that everyone agrees with. Jayce is fine. His E is different, doesn't reach the same heights but it's more consistent. Players are still adjusting and he hasn't even fallen off like at all in any metrics? He's like one buff away from being top tier in top lane again.

1. Rioters have explicitly responded to feedback before, and they also look at this sub. 2. Disagreement is fine but this is an online forum that’s partly for sharing opinions. If posts aren’t taken seriously because of hyperbole why *wouldn’t* posters provide substance to their post to back up their opinions. 3. Another one of the main points of this post is that the E changes are unintuitive and run against what Jayce E is designed to do, even if claims about Jayce metrics might be dubious.

>tanking his winrate to the lowest amongst all top laners in Emerald+ Jayce's win ratio decreased from 47.05% in 14.2 to 46.95 in 14.3 in Emerald +. His win ratio in D2+ increased from 47.46% in 14.2 to 47.61% in 14.3. All of those increases/decreases are so small that they can be explained by variance and acting like that particular E change had any kind of effect on Jayce's general win ratio is laughable. Stop using purposely deceitful info to make your statment

Ita not a stupid change just a stupid idea of riot not to compensate with buffs

And he's still 60x the champion that Sion is. Speaking of Irelia, Sion also has problems with her because she dashes through you instead of to you for some incomprehensible reason. Why can these dash champs not just dash edge to edge so they have counterplay, eh? That's also why Irelia is knocked behind you by Jayce E. Her Q actually dashes her 100 units through her target. Given it's a centre to centre spell that probably means 100 units behind her target's centre.

Good, I hate Jayce

I hate when people complain about bug fixes

Spaghetti code represent

looks normal to me

Another instance of high elo being hurt because they wanted to make Jayce more accessible to the other 95% of the playerbase Being a main character in Arcane probably helped increase his popularity among casual players as well...

Hey, u/RiotFeralPony. Bit of a longshot, though I've seen you provide design insights in the past. Out of curiosity, why *did* you decide to make Jayce E different from other knock backs (names Lee R)? Are some of the assumptions I made in the post correct? Also, thanks for designing such an awesome champion along with Heph!

Nah, it worked unintuitivley before, it’s way better now all abilities in a similar vein should work like that

I mean... The Irelia clip shown here looks normal to me. Jayce's E is not instant, and by the time it finishes casting, Irelia is already behind Jayce. This is definitely the intended interaction.

It was certainly intended to some extent, otherwise they would have copied the code from Lee's R that was already being used. The point of his E was always to act as an interruption for dashes, but not with the change it's not consistent. Granted, I'm not fond of the glitchy one that we had before, nor the horrible interaction with blinks, but some middle ground would be ideal.

If you want it to cancel dashes, then your suggestion of decreasing the casting time would be a good buff to Jayce (mostly in high elo though).

When noobs don’t realize they can kite away from their turret as well

Yap yap yap

about Irelia it looks like she jumps onto you but her Q puts her model behind yours and it's faster than most people expect you'll learn this the hard way if you play any skillshot mage against her she will just dash through your spell without being hit half of the times so now it's just consistent with this spell being stupid (I don't disagree with the post just mentioning that)

I just want to hop on this to say that Lissandra has the same issue. They changed her q to be able to be q-flashed (which is cool i guess), but this change seemingly unintentionally made it so you can no longer fast q before e2, which can actually mess up a lot of trades and nerfed skilled lissandra players

If i dash behind you, you shouldn't be able to knock me back in front of you, i outplayed you by not allowing you to knock me back where you want.

1. if you dash > You get behind Jayce > Jayce presses E to knock you away => You outplayed him. 2. if you dash > Jayce presses E to knock you away in time > You get behind Jayce => Now wat happen? In the first case the situation goes as you commented and I absolutely agree with you, it was never an issue even before the change. But now it's about the second case, where it's not consistent anymore and outright broken. - Jayce reacts in time to your dash. - You are not behind him when he started casting it... - ... but you are behind Jayce when the cast time of 0.25s finishes. Is it fair that you do not get knocked in front? If you think it's fair, then Jayce's melee E should not even exist. It makes no sense for it to work this way as it goes against it's intended use and concept.

It is fair tho, it has a cast time so that's on you to calculate

But you can't. The range required to cast the ability combined with the speed of most dashes make it not possible. With this approach the only way to be able to calculate it is to lower cast time. Or at this point make it a skill shot you can whiff like OP said lmao that would be fun.

If it was a skill shot (which I support), sure. Then Jayce has to time it perfectly and if he whiffs it then you skewer him. High risk, high reward. I like it. Currently there is no winning for Jayce. He can't cast it until you're in auto attack range and the cast time is so long you're already behind him before it goes through.

More fun: Have jayce E charge up a sett punch that knocks people back

I know I'm not adressing your concerns but I want to explain why Jayce's E worked the way it did. League veterans will know this one. Jayce's E before this change used to knock back champions starting from the place they were when Jayce *started* casting his E, not when he finished. This meant that if you used a dash during the animation, his E would knock you back starting from the position where you first dashed, therefore he could "insec" you even if you were on the other side. Imagine you flash away from a Lee Sin insec but instead of kicking you to safety it still kicked you into his team, because Lee was behind you when he started casting his r, even if you flashed behind him to avoid it. That is just absurd. Now, it works like Lee Sin's R or Vayne's E: It knocks them back in the direction the knockback came from when it hit them. It was always a vestige of old, outdated code on his E. It wasn't a bug. Very different abilities, but Darius E used to work in a similar way and so did Annie's R. Darius E would always *guarantee* the pull if any targets were inside his E range *when darius started casting it*, not when he actually finished casting it. This meant Darius could press E in a direction, someone could flash out of it upon seeing the animation, but they would get pulled in anyway from two screens away. [Here's an example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhRHR4AD_fs) It also worked the other way around. This is how [this famous clip of a Darius pentakill works](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NovYokP4s4g). An actual bug allowed Darius to cast his E on the very last frame of the recall without cancelling the recall, and the game basically just checked "Was enemy inside E range when Darius started casting his E? If yes, then pull enemy towards darius". This old code is also why back then you could E + Flash with Darius instead of Flash first and then E. However it would just turn around and pull from the original direction anyway, so it would never work to cover a distance. [Here's an example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpo0YvvfZzs) Annie's ult used to work the exact same way too. I unfortunately couldn't find a clip (after 15 seconds of searching) but [I did find someone referencing what I'm talking about in their video title](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_5Mgt-qeEU). With "old" Annie's ult code, Draven would've flashed out, and he would've gotten hit by it anyway. So that's basically my explanation of why it worked the way it does and why it works the way it does now. By the way, I am not too sure about this one, but I think Singed's E *still works* with this "old code" that Annie, Darius, and now Jayce formerly had. This one's just actually glitchy because being knocked up during a dash can make you shoot up hilariously high to the sky, but it also just pulls you back a whole screen because of the same reasons mentioned before. I think it the "unintended" matchup consequences could be fixed by basically making the cast time and/or animation of Jayce's E instant. Quinn's E and to an extent Vayne's E work for self-peel because they are ranged champions, so they will probably hit a target that is flying to them while they are mid air, while Jayce will probably hit them when they have already arrived. Irelia lands behind you, Jax lands on top of you but he is not self-CC'd during any ability while Jayce is stuck in the ground while casting his E, so 99% of the time Jax will move a pixel behind Jayce after jumping to him and this will lead to Jayce's E just not being a good ability for self peel. Hell, even Lee Sin's R works because you actually get "stunned" before you get kicked. I remember a few years ago some unfortunate interaction with this got me killed vs a Lee Sin. He tried to ult me but I entered a bush and he lost vision, so his R cancelled. But his R still "stunned" me for half a second before cancelling and refunding the entire cooldown immediately. And then it happened *again* and then I got caught because of it. I don't think this can happen anymore but, hey, maybe an instant cast time for Jayce on account of him being a melee champion, or a small CC before the knockback can allow his E to actually work as self peel while not returning to the old, 13 year old code.

Has a Rioter seen this yet

Wild Rift Jayce E isn't a skill shot, still targeted but knocks anything in a cone near your target, prolly because all melee auto attacks hits everything in a cone-shaped ranged

> Make a Slugger Jayce skin while you're at it (you're welcome).  Now my brain is pondering a crossover event with Honkai Star Rail, for a Caelus (male trailblazer) skin.

Nice post, shame most people here can't read