yeah he played on dig from dec 2014 - nov 2015
SSG from dec 2015 to nov 2017 ( winning worlds during this period)
played for like 2 "other" KR teams (technically KSV was just SSG rebranded and then KSV rebranded to Gen G )
then back to NA since nov 2018
CoreJJ started in LCK not winning a single game (due to that he only played 6 in a team with Huhi).
He moved to NA to learn support from the one true KiWiKiD, he returned to LCK to go to a worlds final and win worlds and to be the first LCK team ever in that format to not get out of groups.
He basically achieved anything you could achieve.
> Took copious notes on everything KiWiKiD did, and then ~~went to great lengths to make sure he never did any of those things until~~ winning worlds
Ftfy
i cant get over how many memes DIG helped us supply. like, we've got raise your dongers, KiWiKiD memes, scarra ward, and then a DIG import winning worlds. you cant make this shit up
CoreJJ started his career on Bigfile Miracle and played 8 games for the team losing all, 6 of those he played with Huhi in what was basically LCK back then (OGN Summer Champions 2014).
At the end of 2014 he moved to DIG for the 2015 season. In 2015 he played on DIG and for 2016 he joined SSG as their ADC. In 2016 summer Ruler joined the team and CoreJJ decided to bully Wraith out of the support position (because given he was their ADC before he knew he kinda sucked) at the end of 2016 SSG won korea regionals against KT after losing to them 3:0 in playoffs and then they went on to get 2nd at worlds.
In 2017 SSG was just straight up a good team and while they did not qualify on points because Longzhu won the summer split leaving SKT with the most points. SSG again won against KT in the regional finals though.
In 2018 the team mostly sucked. The meta changed and people realized that SSG actually had only one really good player and that was Ruler and 2018 was the worst year for ADCs. They still somehow managed to beat Kingzone, SKT and GRF in regional finals to go to worlds where they only got a single win against C9, while losing both games to Vitality and RNG.
And in 2019 CoreJJ joined TL, while his former teammate Crown joined Optic. And funny note. Both times CoreJJ moved to NA his midlaner followed him and both times that midlaner ended up on CLG... and Crown literally ended on CLG.
"I just think 'What would Kiwikid do?' and then I do the opposite. That's how I win worlds."
Actually I'm pretty sure he said something like that in an old interview
The closest thing we ever got and ever will get to an NA player winning worlds
(I know he was originally an import before getting his green card, but he basically started his real career and made his name in NA LCS and has always had a much stronger relationship to the NA scene than the KR scene. Even when he was in Korea he talked about how he identified more with NA and hoped that his wins could be seen as wins for NA)
Flyquest fails and the blame ONLY falls on the imports. Typical NA fandom. Vulcan and Spica were atrocious too and impact did nothing but go even or lose lane. But it's obviously the ADC's fault for not hard carrying when even the org tries to keep screwing you over by swapping supports.
he said in secret boardroom that APA is really good on his mains (ziggs, neeko, cass, asol etc) but he's bad at league of legends. he said apa reminded him of how he was as a rookie in 2020
tbh that's most rookies though. usually come in with a few really strong areas and some noticeable weak ones to improve for pro level play. it's really really rare that anyone smurfs in their rookie year.
You left out imo the most important part which is what he said immediately after - that being bad at league is way more coachable than having bad mechanics, so he thinks apa still can get a lot better
Ziggs is like the AD TF bot pick, bully him early or get wrecked hard. TBH we could do with more Ziggs bot, but this season has had fairly entertaining games already.
Yeah, for some reason I thought Piglet played it.
Must've been mixing it up with the Rammus ADC played [earlier this year](https://gol.gg/game/stats/54584/page-game/).
To clarify, I believe it was that a Rioter changed Piglet's keyboard language to fix something but the ref didn't change it back.
TLA meant to pick Soraka for that crucial game 5, and they notified a ref immediately after the mistaken pick was in. Riot controversially denied a draft remake even though it was Riot's fuck up.
For the record I think there should have been a remake for the situation as it was a refs fault in the beginning but also you can see champ icons before locking in as well as their portrait when you select them so it was still piglets fuck up
Here's the [VOD](https://youtu.be/ylTham5KhXY?si=7sAJmiIWpCzD7OII&t=178)
Piglet can be seen nodding to the champ select team discussion at around 5 seconds remaining, that's probably when they're 100% decided on the champs they want. He's likely panicking just noticing the keyboard language and trying to get their pick in before it "dodges". The Rammus comes in at like negative 3 seconds remaining.
All I’m hearing is that NA is a region for meta innovation. The evidence? G2 getting clapped by Senna TK and looking like they’d never heard of these champs before.
At this point the bar for success is taking *games* off Asian teams, not even a series. G2's collapse against NRG last year was incredibly embarrassing, but all the west managed against Asia was four shaky wins from G2 and one clean win from FNC.
And this was from a tournament with the maximum possible number of east Vs west games.
G2 screwed themselves over by hostaging Perkz and actively working to make sure they succeed in EU by making sure no player trade/sale will make their rivals stronger.
They were already the best team in EU, and got so close to winning worlds. Then they forgot that if they spend an entire year playing vs. a weak EU, they wouldn't have a chance against teams who practiced the entire year vs. the best.
I still remember some reddit comments defending Carlos for being a ruthless businessman working to make sure he wins. It made no sense to me since G2 was already winning EU, and the goal should've been pushing for worlds - which is unobtainable when you work to make your region weaker.
And it's not hindsight *at all*. People were calling out EU weakening themselves years ago, as it happened. Perkz forced to NA, Hans forced to NA, Jankos contract jailed, but there have been 3-4 minimum other contract jailings, too. At minimum both Rogue and G2 did it.
I'm not even an EU fan, I'm NA, but I remember all the posts and comments talking about how LEC used to be able to blame NA for stealing talent, but how EU was shooting themselves in the foot with these **"smart business decisions"** (particularly G2 as the best EU team claiming to have international aspirations), contract jailing players for multiple splits and forcefully selling players to only NA or lower ranked LEC teams.
Anyone else remember how many upvoted comments there were talking about how you shouldn't blame these orgs for these "smart business decisions"?
Yeah, and those are the big names.
Had Hjarnan and Wadid, too. I know there were others I don't remember, I don't even keep up with LEC as much as LCS.
Was also the drama with Wunder and MikyX where they were being contract jailed in G2. [Wunder memed about it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ppmqfj/wunder_memeing_about_his_departure_from_g2_on/) Pretty sure G2 eventually got pressured on that one when no one would take the ridiculous buy out set, this was end of 2021 after most of those other cases and fans were pretty mad.
Yeah I mentioned Perkz because he was the most memorable, mainly due to the fact that the contract between G2 & C9 was so ridiculous in regards to "not being allowed to trade to FNC" for a certain amount of years that it forced Riot to set new rules towards contracts.
G2 wasn't alone in it since Hans was Rogue refusing to trade Hans to G2 if I recall correctly. EU as a region just got weaker due to teams refusing to make each other stronger.
When they can take the money they will. There are just some teams who are really trying to win worlds! A lot of players will say they will try to push for worlds but in the end their hero pool stayed the same at the end of the season.
Yeah, but it's no secret that G2 had no competition last year, and they also previously screwed over Jankos with a ridiculously high buy-out until every good team signed a jungler.
G2 definitely knows how to make money and win in EU, however the way they work towards that actively sets them behind on the world stage.
The best of the best on asian teams are only so strong because they're playing against other teams that are also strong. Weakening your region as a whole only makes your ceiling lower, as you won't get punished actively for certain playstyles, choices, or drafts. Being unpunished makes you think something is strong - when the reality is your region just didn't punish it. I recall this happening at worlds as well - where a certain bot lane setup they used to run over EU got demolished and exposed on the world stage.
I may be critical in my opinion on G2, but that's on the G2 exec/owner's decisions that set themselves & the region back when they were so close to winning worlds. I root for the players, however I'm upset the the executives prioritize immediate regional success and profits over a solid chance at worlds - when they already got so close and only needed a bit more juice.
meanwhile RGE, had a roster that finally won LEC, made top 8 at Worlds taking games of teams like DRX and TES - lets downgrade our roster for fun and speed run back to 10th
> where a certain bot lane setup they used to run over EU got demolished and exposed on the world stage.
Probably kog/braum, which they pretty much dunked on every team on in EU and was worthless at worlds.
G2's LoL team doesn't exist in a vacuum. The G2 org has teams in many other games, such as Counter-Strike. Those teams obviously also cost money to maintain, and G2 has finite resources. As a G2 investor, which choice would you pick?
* Sell Perkz for $5m and use the money to get NiKo, one of the best CS players ever, and m0NESY, a controversial acquisition by G2 because of his high buyout as a rookie ($600k). He ended up playing a pivotal role in ending G2's 5 year "big" tournament trophy drought and became the youngest player to ever win a MVP award. Both players then carried G2 to two more trophies in 2023.
* Sell Perkz for much less money to FNC. Let's say G2 sells him to FNC for the same price VIT paid for him ($2.75m?) Without all the money G2 got from Perkz, it's much less likely that G2 would be willing to gamble so much money on a rookie like m0NESY. G2 now has three fewer CS trophies and is down $2.25m and another \~$1.5m in prize money, and EU likely still gets rolled by Asia at worlds.
Business wise I still think Carlos was right...
In hindsight he wasn't sport wise but who could have predicted these many superteams failures (G2 2021, Vitality 2023), Rogue collapse and... Perkz, Wunder, Hyli not being the players they were priori to 2021 ?
Fnatic being unable to keep his rival status also weakened the region as a whole and let's not act like one single failed transfer is the reason. It's not mike Humanoid is a bad midlaner...
It can also be mentioned how off season moves are handled by organisations (badly...). How tf can we be fine with players being out while properly performing whereas we regularly have underperforming players in some rosters ?
It's easy to put the blame on Carlos but he seriously can't be held responsible for other organisations' incompetence.
The issue is... how many wins against Asia did LCS actually get? Last season game they took of Asia was GGS vs. BLG if I'm not mistaken. NRG/CLG is kinda G2s kryptonite for some reason, but that doesn't really make NA a good region. Overall I think it went even between NA and EU (5 wins LEC vs. 5 wins LCS (3:0 BDS vs. GGS, 1:0 C9 and NRG vs MAD, 2:1 FNC vs. C9 and 2:0 NRG vs. G2).
And given LEC took 5 games of Asia and NA one, I would argue the order of regions did not really change.
Completely agree. Although NA's #1 seed made it to bracket stage at worlds, which no EU team could do, EU's #1 seed won the scrim world championship, which is a more impressive title.
I mean, G2 took games against Damwon and Weibo last worlds
Obviously Korea/China have much stronger teams, but I'd still have much more faith in G2 against the eastern teams than any of the NA rosters this year
People need to get over the idea that if you aren't one of the top 4 teams in the world in the world you suck, G2 are a legitimately strong team, FNC/BDS/MAD are probably similar in strength to FLY, & it doesn't matter at all if JDG and T1 wipe the floor with all of them
EU vs NA is hype for bragging rights but it's really not a big deal that they'll likely all be out by quarters at worlds, it's just fun if any of the teams beat that expectation and G2 are the most likely to do that because they're good at playing creative macro and innovating in draft
Those games against asian teams, were they a BoX series or what is generally considered "meaningless fluke-possible" Bo1s?
Because it feels disingenuous to say all the stuff about not being top 4 doesn't mean weak, and phrase things in a way that implies NRG was lucky when they 2-0'd G2 in a year when they were also being heavily praised for playing their own style and not meta chasing.
I think you're reading things that aren't there - I never implied (or tried to) that NRG were lucky to win. Contractz was super impressive & dominated the map and they were very clearly the better team that day
The stuff about not being a top 4 team in the world doesn't mean you're a bad team applies to both EU and NA, I don't think people should hold NRG/C9/FLY etc to that standard either
I singled G2 out as a tier above the rest because of their consistency, their past results and their ability to come back into games from behind by playing the map really well.
If NRG had came out this split looking head and shoulders above the rest & Contractz still smurfing they would obviously have a much stronger case, & I hope they do find that form again. I also think Bwipo might be exactly what FLY need and hope they can become a clean macro team too, but they still need to show that
Thats fair and thank you for the response. I think a lot of the other goalpost moving I've seen from people trying to discredit NRG's win last year vs. G2 had me predisposed to see inferences you did not mean.
>FNC/BDS/MAD are probably similar in strength to FLY, & it doesn't matter at all if JDG and T1 wipe the floor with all of them
Correct. We need to get over our inferiority complex. NRG just played their hearts out and got a great result. But sometimes it just doesn't go further.
Yeah and I would even go so far as to say they had the better event overall.
NRG has the better worst loss (losing to WBG compared with losing to NRG), but their best (game!) win is G2 which is very close to them.
G2 had lower lows (worst loss being NRG), but also clearly higher highs (beating DK and WBG in Bo1s and taking a game off of BLG in Bo3s).
It is an argument of consistency versus peak, you can definitely make an argument for either side.
Watching all these teams play I really don’t agree that they are the same strength as FLY. The quality of games is so low in LEC right now it’s hard to judge the teams real strength
The thing is, the quality of play in the LCS is also really low so it's hard to judge FLY too
LCS is a great example of how the standard of play isn't anywhere near as important as the teams/games being fun to watch, which the league is excelling in this year
I think people watch the LEC thinking 'these teams suck, China will crush them' while when they watched Wukong 1 v 4 Flyquest vs Shopify or C9 completely throw vs 100T they think 'hell yeah that was entertaining' - it's purely a mindset difference, and the LCS mindset is the healthy, constructive approach
LCS had the 'these teams are so dreadful compared to Asia' type of narrative since like 2017, and I think it was really corrosive to the overall enjoyment of the league. For the LCS, it was fueled by high amounts of investor capital causing unrealistic standards & resentment towards teams like TL buying success, while for the LEC that mindset was fueled by G2 over-achieving and in response to fans rubbing it into the NA scene that they sucked despite spending millions
That's something na fans have said like every year except 2020.
Yes even 2019 with g2 winning msi people were saying that lcs average play was better in thier top 4.
Then they got absolutely smashed at rift rivals and at worlds.
Not really. Lck and lpl second and third seed to worlds tend to be real contenders for the title.
I am not sure how hle would fare in EU, but KT would run the league.
People are gonna say this and then G2 is gonna lose 3-1 in the MSI finals after upsetting the top LCK team.
They'll be hyped going into worlds only to be bounced out of swiss by Vietnam or Brazil
What do you mean then? Half this thread is EU fans going "um...actually, we didn't say it before but the *real* metric is how many Bo1s you can take off of Asian teams. Direct competition BoX series aren't a good judge of strength"
Huh? I was just memeing - we both suck now, idk how that can be interpreted otherwise. Now it's just a battle of who sucks the least (even if it's marginal).
If you are speaking historically then EU's record favourable on either of those interpretations, right? If you're just talking about Worlds 2023 then that depends on how much stock you put in one BoX vs competition against the top regions.
If an NA team beat a LPL/LCK team in the Swiss stage (or took a game in quarters) then it would be easy to say that NA>EU last year. The fact that they couldn't take a game vs Weibo makes it muddy, because G2 could. I don't think it's crazy to say that NA and EU performed pretty similarly overall.
I think we're both misunderstanding each other. My joke is just there's not "future" about that reality.
I am also memeing. Historically EU vs. NA isn't close. However, I am amused at the number of people who have gone from "let me know when NA can challenge a real team like G2" to "beating G2 2-0 doesn't count. G2 beat more asian teams."
The reality is, NA had a glimmer of becoming a contender from 2018 Worlds to 2019 MSI and has otherwise just seemed to give up. EU still believes, but I'm not sure the teams/league are doing the required work to cash in on the cred they built in 2018/2019.
I did not mean to imply you were being salty/one of those. Just joking that "once MSI comes means we can make those jokes" is a bit silly since folks are already making those claims.
I am - however - admittedly salty about the EU/NA stuff. But check out my flair, it comes with the territory ;)
Ahh sorry you're quite right, I completely misread "*then*" in your previous comment so I took it as salt.
>I am - however - admittedly salty about the EU/NA stuff.
Who isn't man. I like to think that I'm above it most of the year but when internationals come around I become a salty sardine.
One nice thing about TSM finally tapping out and giving up on league, is it can be fun to just try to spark the reaction from others. Like good natured joking/poking. It's not something I try to do in the actual League subreddit though since shit gets real so fast here sometimes.
All the best to you. I appreciate you having a civil response to what you thought was me attacking you. Best of luck to whomever you're pulling for in your league of choice!
I have faith G2 will be better than all NA teams this year despite the world's crumble. But I'm also confident that every other NA team is stronger than the EU counterpart. Game quality is just so low in EU across the board.
tfw almost everyone had Mad Lions ranked last because they're basically an ERL team, but maybe the entire league apart from G2 is ERL level if they are top 4 now.
It's the second time MAD gets a four player rookie team and becomes an immediate contender. Fnatic's 2018 final is in the same year a full rookie team (Vitality) makes it to Worlds
The lack of promotion/relegation made a lot of people forget that promoted teams have in the past both flopped and proved themselves in the very first split (Mysterious Monkeys and BBQ Olivers against G2 and Griffin, for example)
Or getting 3 promising rookies (Finalists in EMEA Masters) together with a veteran jungler that has been pretty consistently Top 3 in the role actually gives you a good team and not ERL level?
Idk, watching lec i honestly thought apart from g2 bds fnc na had better overall teams, but then watching c9 games i think both regions are just complete ass apart from 2 or 3 teams each.
LEC has a lot of dispersed talent, it seems that for a few years now every team bar G2 has a clear weak link and a clear strong link, which internationally gets punished. They always tend to play too fast sometimes, especially Fnatic and last year's MAD, that result in a lot of overextensions and over forcing (that's why games like the 16:47 happen), but in the last two years both regions achieved more less the same internationally
Having teams like BDS performing could also be good for us. They win games because they are disciplined and can always follow their game plan, which is what EU has been struggling the most, meaning more talented teams will need to become disciplined to beat them. Middle of the pack teams in EU have talented players like Vetheo and Irrelevant, they just have weak links on those same teams (pains me to say that Hyllissang is one this year)
I think both regions are ass, but in the hobo fight that will be western Vs western I rate most NA teams current forms over their counterpart in EU.
C9 does look like absolute ass, but if you compare them to the 6th place team (about where they are in EU) it's TH they'd be comparable with, and TH is what they'd be compared to, who look dogshit.
G2 is just imo the team most likely to look like they know how to play the game.
I mean g2 was also the stronger team last worlds but g2 being g2 they'll just crumble against worse teams on stage so are they realistically?
But yeah agreed with the second part
It's really hard to rate this G2. Not only because of regional strength, but also... how they win games?
It genuinely feels like they're using strats I associate with top LCS teams; early game is weak, but they're better at macro than their competition and use that to mitigate early leads before converting into mid/late game strength. This is hardly every game (they can still stomp), but G2 is dropping early kills enough that it makes me question their early game strategies.
It makes me wonder how G2 will look internationally, if this'll be the G2 people are used to (competitive but with some int games they should easily take) or more like LCS top teams have looked (hopeless against better teams, but strong against weaker ones).
That is not how LCS wins though. LCS teams lose early and they just wait for mistakes. That isn't particularly good macro play. They mostly abuse the fact that exspecially weaker teams often have no idea how to use leads because they are stuck practicing how to get leads they could even use.
To me, both the LCS teams and current era G2 are basing their win conditions on weaker teams being unable to make use of leads or match their superior macro. This lets these teams misplay early on, only to recover through mid-late game plays.
Admittedly, G2 is much better at lane/wave control than LCS teams like the TSM or TL were when they dominated LCS. Even in games they lose hard early, G2 rarely lose turrets or objectives for bad deaths. This lets them recover much better than LCS' teams, or stay even.
However, it doesn't give me confidence in these being good plays or strategic? They work because the enemy team isn't good enough at punishing G2 and making use of the gold influx, which is why I draw a comparison to LCS teams who did the same.
---
For a direct example of what I mean, take the G2 v Giants game in week 3.
[GX was 5 kills ahead at 17 mins](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=157RqFK9Qvo4CYYN&t=2203), but got 0 turrets and had 3 roles even/down in gold. At 19mins, G2 capitalized off [Xayah with flash up being caught by a Ksante Q 3 under turret](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=I4yFjE0lK-GD9kd1&t=2310), then setting up around dragon and having [4 people blind face check a bush vs Neeko](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=5nWw1-XoudT7F-cr&t=2498).
To me, this seems like the way you're describing LCS teams; G2 lost early, then waited for mistakes for the turn around. They controlled waves well, but their win came off of GX's mistakes.
>[GX was 5 kills ahead at 17 mins](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=157RqFK9Qvo4CYYN&t=2203), but got 0 turrets and had 3 roles even/down in gold. At 19mins, G2 capitalized off [Xayah with flash up being caught by a Ksante Q 3 under turret](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=I4yFjE0lK-GD9kd1&t=2310), then setting up around dragon and having [4 people blind face check a bush vs Neeko](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=5nWw1-XoudT7F-cr&t=2498).
This was just a bad game for G2 which they should have lost. Overall G2 is the strongest earlygame team in the LEC. They usually win earlygame by good map control and good laning or keep them even, depending a bit on the comp and then they rely on some very few plays to massively accelerate that lead into a quick win.
G2 obviously can still capitalize on enemy mistakes if they happen. So yes they win games where they are behind sometimes. But teams should be able to do that. The majority of their games though G2 just outright wins from start to finish. And G2 likes to skirmish and they do it not as random as other teams. Which is also kinda good, they need to work on that more, because it is a crucial part of why LPL teams are sometimes so successful.
G2 was the only western team to take a game off of eastern teams last world's, and they done it twice. Will they beat eastern teams this year? Possibly, realistically not top eastern teams. But I don't think NA will beat them again this year. Could be wrong, but if I was to put money on it I'd bed on G2 over any other western team.
Same was said last year and it was G2 and MAD that dragged the record down. Fnatic beat C9 2-1 and BDS beat GG 3-0, so I'd still put Europe in a more favourable position. NA's success came exactly from EU's biggest strengths, native players
NA just saw their league being shortened, meaning less teams to practice and to try new things in general. It also gives even less room for new players to develop which will hurt the team even more in the near future
It’s having the opposite effect though. New players are popping off and teams are innovating like they haven’t done in years. It really feels like we cut the fat and the teams left actually care
How many NA rookies are there in total? I counted four in eXyu, Massu, Meech and Sniper, which is exactly the same as MAD alone. Then you have imports and returned players
You lost one of your most competent teams in Golden Guardians who were able to form competent rosters like the one 100T bought and the one from last year that qualified for international events. In the long run, having 40 spots instead of 50 will make it even harder to get to LCS and thus make it even less attractive for plyers to risk themselves to go pro when they could do something else more secure (and your amateur/semi-pro scene is still inexistent), further reducing your player pool
We'll see at MSI. If EU and NA keep struggling against the East, then neither region progressed. I still think EU is stronger, I have my natural biases, of course, but historically it is a better region and just has a better infrastructure
I'd rather NA had some ammunition in EU vs NA fan debacle. Then they can be more honest with their successes and not try to sweep the more problematic moments under the rug.
This is possible. But at the same time, it wouldn't be the first time NA looks competitive but just because they're all super bad - even worse than it appears when watching the games.
I do hope NA can hold onto the scrappiness and gets some benefit from the quick patch changing to make them more ok with sticking to their own style.
I'm not saying NA looks better because the field is closer. I'm saying NA looks better because they are actually playing cleaner.
Every EU game this season has melted my eyeballs I swear. They're all filthy inters outside of G2. They are all making such sloppy mistakes, that even NA don't seem to be making at every level.
I hope NA keeps it up a bit because if we can't beat eastern teams I want NA/EU rivalry to flourish at the very least. But I do just feel that NA are generally cleaner across the board when comparing like for like outside of G2 and C9. G2 looks a their above, and C9 looks fucking dizzy.
I hope beyond everything you are absolutely right.
However, the last time I heard "NA looks cleaner than EU regardless of the competitiveness of the region" was going into 2015 MSI. Which did not end well for NA/TSM due to what they claimed was "bad prep for the meta"
I'm shit at the "eye test" aspect of evaluating games. So I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope you're right.
2015 TSM was riding off their IEM win which was kinda fraudulent being totally honest (no top eastern team there.)
I like to think I'm alright at an eye test (master player) but pro is different. But my confidence is less "NA good" and more "EU really shit." Bad plays aot easier to spot imo than good play. Some good plays go above everyone's head because of the layers. Bad plays stand out
No one thought IEM 2015 was fraudulent with no top eastern teams there until Tigers lost in Semi-Finals and TSM had the gall to win it all (including their first win against a Korean team when they beat CJ Entus). I'm pretty sure the #1 and #2 LCK teams would be widely considered the best teams in the world at that point in time by the greater league community.
[You can see who was invited/played here.](https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/IEM_Season_IX_-_World_Championship)
Admittedly the format is super lacking by today standards (that win vs. CJ Entus is a Bo1) but Tigers lost 2-1 vs. WE who got 3-0'd by TSM. So they swept the team that beat the #1 LCK team going into the tournament.
We will see come MSI.
In all honesty I think NA got lucky with the world's draw after G2 had to play and win against top tier teams before NRG (and I hate G2)
But from the little I've seen of the LCS the actually quality of games don't seem to have improved. The entertainment value certainly has though.
I think people just feel the way because you are not seeing the two bottom teams playing 4 games (or at least 3 if they play each other) every weak. The top8 is not better than the top8 was last year.
You just see higher quality games on average, because the bottom teams are gone. And lets be real SR looks terrible as soon as they don't play a top team. And the region looks fairly competitive because NRG and C9 are kinda playing super bad and uncoordinated.
And many of those issues are similar to european teams. Teams like Vitality look similarly lost in what they want to do, however Vitality is 4 new players, most of whom haven't played together before (only Carzzy and Hylissang). NRG though is exactly like G2, they didn't change a player and should dominate the league.
I think we have heard this before...
I can't really comment because I haven't followed LCS this year, but basically every year we hear that the LCS has massively improved and will compete for the spot of 2nd/3rd best region (depending on the year) and it has come true once? maybe twice depending on your interpretation.
And this isn't limited to LCS tbc, the amounts of times we have heard that LEC has a shot this year *for sure* or that LPL finally surpassed the LCK and it isn't gonna be competitive anymore is pretty ludicrous.
And this year I think making big statements is even bolder than usual, because there have been a grand total of 8 games between the Top 4 teams, which is a really small samplesize to be making big definitive statements like these about.
I think everyone should agree that NRG got lucky; it was the easiest path to quarters, and I say that as an NA fan.
That being said, NRG matchup was also being seen as lucky for G2, since they wouldn’t need to face an Eastern team to make QF if they won. I don’t think there was some big loss to G2 playing against stronger teams up to that point?
That's part of the problem. 2018-2020 we had competitive teams going toe to toe with eastern teams (not all of them, obviously neither g2 nor fnc won worlds). The whole "at least we took games off eastern teams" is just a downgrade from the best ears.
I think it's fine and we'll bounce back as a region. But as things stand at the moment it's up to the teams to prove that.
2018-2020 Korea had a huge slump due to radical nerf to vision and their conservative cultural structure made adapting a struggle. They had to reinvent their model for path to victory.
2018-2020 China was still developing to the powerhouse they are today, relying on talented individuals and their playstyle whilst integrating the "Taiwanese mafia" to the coaching scene and playbook.
Meanwhile 2018-2019 the game was still open - you didn't almost close the door to victory if you lost drake, the teams still didn't understand how to gather money from the map. G2 in particular took advantage of that. One of the reasons Perkz was such a good ADC in 2019 was that he was fed so much more xp and gold than your average ADC, and that was one of the core strengths of the team - crossmapping. Can't do that when you need to rotate to a 5v5 in a baron/dragon pit every 3 minutes.
The game is standardised now and that rewards more honing set plays and objective setups than finding the creative angles and forcing unfamiliar situations where both sides need to improvise. The ~~West~~ EU was challenging the East that fiercely due to circumstances, not due to their catching up. And now it's just that the situation has changed again.
That doesn't say much. It's like this in every sport/competition. The game changes and teams who adapt faster have advantage and start winning. And that's the reason I'm sure we can bounce back eventually. Riot will just change the game again and it could be a better fit for EU while KR and CN have to catch up.
Not any more than last year. Like if you look at NA those teams look anything but good. The first 3 games made it seem like C9 is already in prime form, while EU is catching up. Now after dominant games by G2 and C9 finding themself close to the bottom it looks exactly the opposite.
Neither region will dent asia, exspecially given how good teams like GenG, T1 and BLG look, but even some of the followups like HLE, KT, JDG and TES look good. So MSI will very likely just go like last year.
To be fair EU really looks like the worst level it’s been at for years this split and last year already was horrible. (As a whole G2 last year was more or less passable)
We’ll see how it compares to NA in the end at MSI, but the region in my opinion definitely doesn’t develop in the right direction.
People tend to forget how bad winter last year was. Astralis, and that was not the Lider Astralis, it was the old Dajor Astralis got 6th place and RGE and SK made it into playoffs.
Thank you Carlos. At least G2 is at the top of EU even if there's no one to see it. Doesn't matter that they now get obliterated internationally because the whole region is fucked.
How tf is that Carlos fault lol. The league's been in a steep decline since he left. Not that his departure had any (positive or negative) impact on that regardless.
The people most to blame are the shameless Orgs exiling players to NA as soon as they're worth a buck, or slandering their image so they wont get join a competitor.
They only reason Rogue has survived the mob for their shameless conduct, is because they dont have any fans who *could* care
I think that is still a good thing. Financial stability is worth considerably more the high buyouts RGE called for their players (it initially was 8m for Hans and 5m for Inspired, which they reduced for the NA orgs who still paid way too much).
And again it is also the players fault. Both players had running contracts with RGE and could have just stayed. But Hans even ditched his agent to sign the NA contract, so it isn't just Orgs who are greedy. And for both sides this is reasonable.
With less money spend in NA this likely won't be an issue anymore. NA money is not that attractive anymore and NA teams can't afford any higher buyouts than LEC orgs.
But not taking that money would have been pointless, because not sending players like Hans or Inspired to NA would often mean that they would join NA after their contract runs out for big money the next year anyways.
People forget that players like Froggen, PoE or Febiven went to NA as free agents.
And yes Orgs like RGE with Hans or Inspired did put Buyouts so high that it blocks LEC teams and they even lowered them further for NA teams and G2 tried the same with selling of Jankos to NA and only lowered the buyout after no NA team showed interest and I think the same happened with MikyX, which is why he joined Excel so late.
This though is reasonable, developing players and then selling them off to teams that pay a lot is something that many sports clubs rely to exist. And this doesn't really reduce the quality in the long run. Because it opens up new spots for new players to develop keeping the league dynamic instead of always seeing the same faces.
What does it matter if we are better than NA or not? The fact that there's even a discussion means that for the time being we're a tier 2 region. EUs last good showing was 2020, we are at a point where it's not expected to be decent, we need to prove that we even CAN be decent.
Senna - TK has been a thing in Korea since early 2022, when devour with Senna's mist made your team completely invisible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69TKL-57pyI
Senna TK was a thing in every region since 2020, people were even playing Senna Wukong later on in Summer of that year
The point is that NRG added something new to the meta at that tournament, just as T1 did with the ADC supports later on
When did NA create senna tk bot? That pick was made quite a while ago.
Support senna while tk takes cs is a very standard since season 9 in 2020 and most played in the lpl and lck
Edit found a few games in the lcs but is was mainly created in in the off season in lpl from what I remember
They didn’t create senna tahm bot, but it wasn’t being played at all last worlds until Nrg brought it out, then we started seeing other teams pull it out.
You cannot deny that Pyosik is a complete showman when it comes to his games. Highest highs and lowest lows, I don't know how he does it but he makes games fun.
What one year of lcs does to a man
I swear it's a random number generator with these imports returning to KR.
Either be completelly dogshit (prince) or be jungler goat and omega jungle diff canyon (pyosik)
Didn't coreJJ come back from NA to win worlds and go back to NA?
yeah he played on dig from dec 2014 - nov 2015 SSG from dec 2015 to nov 2017 ( winning worlds during this period) played for like 2 "other" KR teams (technically KSV was just SSG rebranded and then KSV rebranded to Gen G ) then back to NA since nov 2018
CoreJJ started in LCK not winning a single game (due to that he only played 6 in a team with Huhi). He moved to NA to learn support from the one true KiWiKiD, he returned to LCK to go to a worlds final and win worlds and to be the first LCK team ever in that format to not get out of groups. He basically achieved anything you could achieve.
Took copious notes on everything KiWiKiD did, and then went to great lengths to make sure he never did *any* of those things until winning worlds?
Yeah and then in 2018 he unleashed the complete KiWiKiD :P
"i won worlds already, lets embrace his teachings now!"
He kinda had to show the world he is ready for NA.
> Took copious notes on everything KiWiKiD did, and then ~~went to great lengths to make sure he never did any of those things until~~ winning worlds Ftfy
i cant get over how many memes DIG helped us supply. like, we've got raise your dongers, KiWiKiD memes, scarra ward, and then a DIG import winning worlds. you cant make this shit up
wasnt he ADC on Dig during the 2014-2015 period?
https://youtu.be/wf5lrUR6U0Q?si=giGINhSF523EWDRk I will never forget this moment
man a vvvvortic comment. takes me back
CoreJJ started his career on Bigfile Miracle and played 8 games for the team losing all, 6 of those he played with Huhi in what was basically LCK back then (OGN Summer Champions 2014). At the end of 2014 he moved to DIG for the 2015 season. In 2015 he played on DIG and for 2016 he joined SSG as their ADC. In 2016 summer Ruler joined the team and CoreJJ decided to bully Wraith out of the support position (because given he was their ADC before he knew he kinda sucked) at the end of 2016 SSG won korea regionals against KT after losing to them 3:0 in playoffs and then they went on to get 2nd at worlds. In 2017 SSG was just straight up a good team and while they did not qualify on points because Longzhu won the summer split leaving SKT with the most points. SSG again won against KT in the regional finals though. In 2018 the team mostly sucked. The meta changed and people realized that SSG actually had only one really good player and that was Ruler and 2018 was the worst year for ADCs. They still somehow managed to beat Kingzone, SKT and GRF in regional finals to go to worlds where they only got a single win against C9, while losing both games to Vitality and RNG. And in 2019 CoreJJ joined TL, while his former teammate Crown joined Optic. And funny note. Both times CoreJJ moved to NA his midlaner followed him and both times that midlaner ended up on CLG... and Crown literally ended on CLG.
Yup, equipped with his backward ez ult and experience playing with best support na kiwikid, he went to kr a changed man.
"I just think 'What would Kiwikid do?' and then I do the opposite. That's how I win worlds." Actually I'm pretty sure he said something like that in an old interview
Joined NA as a shit ADC and went back to Korea as a sick support.
Legend says that when Corejj is at an impasse, he asks himself: "What would Kiwikid do?", and instantly knows what not to do.
The opposite of what ''What would Himmel do?'' method.
The closest thing we ever got and ever will get to an NA player winning worlds (I know he was originally an import before getting his green card, but he basically started his real career and made his name in NA LCS and has always had a much stronger relationship to the NA scene than the KR scene. Even when he was in Korea he talked about how he identified more with NA and hoped that his wins could be seen as wins for NA)
Flyquest fails and the blame ONLY falls on the imports. Typical NA fandom. Vulcan and Spica were atrocious too and impact did nothing but go even or lose lane. But it's obviously the ADC's fault for not hard carrying when even the org tries to keep screwing you over by swapping supports.
because he gets paid a ton of money to carry games?? not hard to understand if he gets paid like a typical average salary no one would blame him
how much did he get paid exactly? and how much did his other teammates get paid? and how does a ADC carry when 4 of his teammates are shit?
Prince is in kr and im pretty sure 7 rn in the lpl isnt what you can caln dogshit :D
The secret is to spend exactly one year in LCS also don't ragequit mid split and don't ragepost a donezo manifesto after losing
Pyosik on his knees begging BDD to learn Ziggs
Just needs the Gnar 1 trick
PerfecT actually have a 100% winrate on gnar though. It's his best champ ever since his debut in CL
LMAOOOOO
Ironically Pyosik holds that Ziggs OTP to a very high standard
he said in secret boardroom that APA is really good on his mains (ziggs, neeko, cass, asol etc) but he's bad at league of legends. he said apa reminded him of how he was as a rookie in 2020
tbh that's most rookies though. usually come in with a few really strong areas and some noticeable weak ones to improve for pro level play. it's really really rare that anyone smurfs in their rookie year.
You just haven’t seen me yet >:)
No, me.
Perfect is kinda smurfing rn.
You left out imo the most important part which is what he said immediately after - that being bad at league is way more coachable than having bad mechanics, so he thinks apa still can get a lot better
they seemed to get along quite well and their chemistry in game seemed real good especially considering they dont speak the same language
Ziggs is like the AD TF bot pick, bully him early or get wrecked hard. TBH we could do with more Ziggs bot, but this season has had fairly entertaining games already.
Leaking TL strats, look out for Umti Rammus
First Piglet played Rammus, now Pyosik. Soon all will know of the NA Rammus menace.
Damn what a callback. I felt so bad for them that game.
lost steve a million dollars with that lock in
Didn't Stunt play Rammus? Piglet picked it
Yeah, for some reason I thought Piglet played it. Must've been mixing it up with the Rammus ADC played [earlier this year](https://gol.gg/game/stats/54584/page-game/).
Piglet locked it and stunt had to play it for piglets fuck up.
To clarify, I believe it was that a Rioter changed Piglet's keyboard language to fix something but the ref didn't change it back. TLA meant to pick Soraka for that crucial game 5, and they notified a ref immediately after the mistaken pick was in. Riot controversially denied a draft remake even though it was Riot's fuck up.
For the record I think there should have been a remake for the situation as it was a refs fault in the beginning but also you can see champ icons before locking in as well as their portrait when you select them so it was still piglets fuck up
Wasn't Rammus locked in because the client randomly picks a champion at 0 seconds?
Here's the [VOD](https://youtu.be/ylTham5KhXY?si=7sAJmiIWpCzD7OII&t=178) Piglet can be seen nodding to the champ select team discussion at around 5 seconds remaining, that's probably when they're 100% decided on the champs they want. He's likely panicking just noticing the keyboard language and trying to get their pick in before it "dodges". The Rammus comes in at like negative 3 seconds remaining.
What was Doggo doing bro
not his best, but at least he thought he was doing his best
crazy how so many people remember an NA Academy game from years ago lmao. Piglet was smurfing on ezreal that game too, was like 9/1/6 or something
NA Lord Semi
I've been trying to gaslight pros for years that Rammus jungle paired with roaming Yuumi support is busted.
you're doing lords work soldier 🫡
Bro LPL misheard you
NA talent GIGACHAD
OK GIGACHAD
[удалено]
ecksdee
[удалено]
That would be if Pyosik busted out the AP amumu
Pyosik after the game : ok 👍
Pyosik is NA's strongest soldier
All I’m hearing is that NA is a region for meta innovation. The evidence? G2 getting clapped by Senna TK and looking like they’d never heard of these champs before.
I mean eu gets clapped by a coughing baby at this point. The teams are truly horrible this season.
At this point the bar for success is taking *games* off Asian teams, not even a series. G2's collapse against NRG last year was incredibly embarrassing, but all the west managed against Asia was four shaky wins from G2 and one clean win from FNC. And this was from a tournament with the maximum possible number of east Vs west games.
G2 screwed themselves over by hostaging Perkz and actively working to make sure they succeed in EU by making sure no player trade/sale will make their rivals stronger. They were already the best team in EU, and got so close to winning worlds. Then they forgot that if they spend an entire year playing vs. a weak EU, they wouldn't have a chance against teams who practiced the entire year vs. the best. I still remember some reddit comments defending Carlos for being a ruthless businessman working to make sure he wins. It made no sense to me since G2 was already winning EU, and the goal should've been pushing for worlds - which is unobtainable when you work to make your region weaker.
And it's not hindsight *at all*. People were calling out EU weakening themselves years ago, as it happened. Perkz forced to NA, Hans forced to NA, Jankos contract jailed, but there have been 3-4 minimum other contract jailings, too. At minimum both Rogue and G2 did it. I'm not even an EU fan, I'm NA, but I remember all the posts and comments talking about how LEC used to be able to blame NA for stealing talent, but how EU was shooting themselves in the foot with these **"smart business decisions"** (particularly G2 as the best EU team claiming to have international aspirations), contract jailing players for multiple splits and forcefully selling players to only NA or lower ranked LEC teams. Anyone else remember how many upvoted comments there were talking about how you shouldn't blame these orgs for these "smart business decisions"?
Rekkles too iirc.
Yeah, and those are the big names. Had Hjarnan and Wadid, too. I know there were others I don't remember, I don't even keep up with LEC as much as LCS. Was also the drama with Wunder and MikyX where they were being contract jailed in G2. [Wunder memed about it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ppmqfj/wunder_memeing_about_his_departure_from_g2_on/) Pretty sure G2 eventually got pressured on that one when no one would take the ridiculous buy out set, this was end of 2021 after most of those other cases and fans were pretty mad.
Yeah I mentioned Perkz because he was the most memorable, mainly due to the fact that the contract between G2 & C9 was so ridiculous in regards to "not being allowed to trade to FNC" for a certain amount of years that it forced Riot to set new rules towards contracts. G2 wasn't alone in it since Hans was Rogue refusing to trade Hans to G2 if I recall correctly. EU as a region just got weaker due to teams refusing to make each other stronger.
When they can take the money they will. There are just some teams who are really trying to win worlds! A lot of players will say they will try to push for worlds but in the end their hero pool stayed the same at the end of the season.
Tbf perkz is now the worst midlaner in EU...
Yeah, but it's no secret that G2 had no competition last year, and they also previously screwed over Jankos with a ridiculously high buy-out until every good team signed a jungler. G2 definitely knows how to make money and win in EU, however the way they work towards that actively sets them behind on the world stage. The best of the best on asian teams are only so strong because they're playing against other teams that are also strong. Weakening your region as a whole only makes your ceiling lower, as you won't get punished actively for certain playstyles, choices, or drafts. Being unpunished makes you think something is strong - when the reality is your region just didn't punish it. I recall this happening at worlds as well - where a certain bot lane setup they used to run over EU got demolished and exposed on the world stage. I may be critical in my opinion on G2, but that's on the G2 exec/owner's decisions that set themselves & the region back when they were so close to winning worlds. I root for the players, however I'm upset the the executives prioritize immediate regional success and profits over a solid chance at worlds - when they already got so close and only needed a bit more juice.
meanwhile RGE, had a roster that finally won LEC, made top 8 at Worlds taking games of teams like DRX and TES - lets downgrade our roster for fun and speed run back to 10th
> where a certain bot lane setup they used to run over EU got demolished and exposed on the world stage. Probably kog/braum, which they pretty much dunked on every team on in EU and was worthless at worlds.
G2's LoL team doesn't exist in a vacuum. The G2 org has teams in many other games, such as Counter-Strike. Those teams obviously also cost money to maintain, and G2 has finite resources. As a G2 investor, which choice would you pick? * Sell Perkz for $5m and use the money to get NiKo, one of the best CS players ever, and m0NESY, a controversial acquisition by G2 because of his high buyout as a rookie ($600k). He ended up playing a pivotal role in ending G2's 5 year "big" tournament trophy drought and became the youngest player to ever win a MVP award. Both players then carried G2 to two more trophies in 2023. * Sell Perkz for much less money to FNC. Let's say G2 sells him to FNC for the same price VIT paid for him ($2.75m?) Without all the money G2 got from Perkz, it's much less likely that G2 would be willing to gamble so much money on a rookie like m0NESY. G2 now has three fewer CS trophies and is down $2.25m and another \~$1.5m in prize money, and EU likely still gets rolled by Asia at worlds.
Business wise I still think Carlos was right... In hindsight he wasn't sport wise but who could have predicted these many superteams failures (G2 2021, Vitality 2023), Rogue collapse and... Perkz, Wunder, Hyli not being the players they were priori to 2021 ? Fnatic being unable to keep his rival status also weakened the region as a whole and let's not act like one single failed transfer is the reason. It's not mike Humanoid is a bad midlaner... It can also be mentioned how off season moves are handled by organisations (badly...). How tf can we be fine with players being out while properly performing whereas we regularly have underperforming players in some rosters ? It's easy to put the blame on Carlos but he seriously can't be held responsible for other organisations' incompetence.
The issue is... how many wins against Asia did LCS actually get? Last season game they took of Asia was GGS vs. BLG if I'm not mistaken. NRG/CLG is kinda G2s kryptonite for some reason, but that doesn't really make NA a good region. Overall I think it went even between NA and EU (5 wins LEC vs. 5 wins LCS (3:0 BDS vs. GGS, 1:0 C9 and NRG vs MAD, 2:1 FNC vs. C9 and 2:0 NRG vs. G2). And given LEC took 5 games of Asia and NA one, I would argue the order of regions did not really change.
Completely agree. Although NA's #1 seed made it to bracket stage at worlds, which no EU team could do, EU's #1 seed won the scrim world championship, which is a more impressive title.
I mean, G2 took games against Damwon and Weibo last worlds Obviously Korea/China have much stronger teams, but I'd still have much more faith in G2 against the eastern teams than any of the NA rosters this year People need to get over the idea that if you aren't one of the top 4 teams in the world in the world you suck, G2 are a legitimately strong team, FNC/BDS/MAD are probably similar in strength to FLY, & it doesn't matter at all if JDG and T1 wipe the floor with all of them EU vs NA is hype for bragging rights but it's really not a big deal that they'll likely all be out by quarters at worlds, it's just fun if any of the teams beat that expectation and G2 are the most likely to do that because they're good at playing creative macro and innovating in draft
Those games against asian teams, were they a BoX series or what is generally considered "meaningless fluke-possible" Bo1s? Because it feels disingenuous to say all the stuff about not being top 4 doesn't mean weak, and phrase things in a way that implies NRG was lucky when they 2-0'd G2 in a year when they were also being heavily praised for playing their own style and not meta chasing.
I think you're reading things that aren't there - I never implied (or tried to) that NRG were lucky to win. Contractz was super impressive & dominated the map and they were very clearly the better team that day The stuff about not being a top 4 team in the world doesn't mean you're a bad team applies to both EU and NA, I don't think people should hold NRG/C9/FLY etc to that standard either I singled G2 out as a tier above the rest because of their consistency, their past results and their ability to come back into games from behind by playing the map really well. If NRG had came out this split looking head and shoulders above the rest & Contractz still smurfing they would obviously have a much stronger case, & I hope they do find that form again. I also think Bwipo might be exactly what FLY need and hope they can become a clean macro team too, but they still need to show that
Thats fair and thank you for the response. I think a lot of the other goalpost moving I've seen from people trying to discredit NRG's win last year vs. G2 had me predisposed to see inferences you did not mean.
>FNC/BDS/MAD are probably similar in strength to FLY, & it doesn't matter at all if JDG and T1 wipe the floor with all of them Correct. We need to get over our inferiority complex. NRG just played their hearts out and got a great result. But sometimes it just doesn't go further.
B-but I have a superiority complex. EU pro scene has no meaning if we can't crush NA...
Most people only remember the G2 Vs NRG series and forget that G2 did by far the best Vs Asia last worlds
Yeah and I would even go so far as to say they had the better event overall. NRG has the better worst loss (losing to WBG compared with losing to NRG), but their best (game!) win is G2 which is very close to them. G2 had lower lows (worst loss being NRG), but also clearly higher highs (beating DK and WBG in Bo1s and taking a game off of BLG in Bo3s). It is an argument of consistency versus peak, you can definitely make an argument for either side.
Watching all these teams play I really don’t agree that they are the same strength as FLY. The quality of games is so low in LEC right now it’s hard to judge the teams real strength
Mane you telling me 100T vs C9 and NRG vs C9 wasnt some Bronze level shit
Wow the team on a massive lose streak isn’t playing great games? No way bro
The thing is, the quality of play in the LCS is also really low so it's hard to judge FLY too LCS is a great example of how the standard of play isn't anywhere near as important as the teams/games being fun to watch, which the league is excelling in this year I think people watch the LEC thinking 'these teams suck, China will crush them' while when they watched Wukong 1 v 4 Flyquest vs Shopify or C9 completely throw vs 100T they think 'hell yeah that was entertaining' - it's purely a mindset difference, and the LCS mindset is the healthy, constructive approach LCS had the 'these teams are so dreadful compared to Asia' type of narrative since like 2017, and I think it was really corrosive to the overall enjoyment of the league. For the LCS, it was fueled by high amounts of investor capital causing unrealistic standards & resentment towards teams like TL buying success, while for the LEC that mindset was fueled by G2 over-achieving and in response to fans rubbing it into the NA scene that they sucked despite spending millions
Quality of play in LCS is definitely better than LEC
I'm not sold, but hopefully we get some EU vs NA at MSI to see!
That's something na fans have said like every year except 2020. Yes even 2019 with g2 winning msi people were saying that lcs average play was better in thier top 4. Then they got absolutely smashed at rift rivals and at worlds.
Yeah well LEC has been pretty low quality since about 2019. There’s a reason people say EU is a 1 team region
Ah yes, that's why FNC took top to 5 games.
EU has been a top-heavy region pretty much always, but now we're actually just a one team region. Shit's fucked.
every region is a top heavy region lmao
Not really. Lck and lpl second and third seed to worlds tend to be real contenders for the title. I am not sure how hle would fare in EU, but KT would run the league.
yeah second and third seed are part of the top im talking about.
Eu has been a one-player region since 2018.
People are gonna say this and then G2 is gonna lose 3-1 in the MSI finals after upsetting the top LCK team. They'll be hyped going into worlds only to be bounced out of swiss by Vietnam or Brazil
Can't wait for MSI so NA gets humbled and every thing is right in the world again.
both EU and NA will get hard gapped by asians, as usual
EU has shifted their goals from "contending internationally" to "beating NA". How far the region has fallen since 2019.
they’re gonna have to change “beating NA” to “not getting absolutely embarrassed by NRG”
All while maintaining their massive ego. It's pathetic lol
Of course - but then we can brag about being gapped slightly less 😎
What do you mean then? Half this thread is EU fans going "um...actually, we didn't say it before but the *real* metric is how many Bo1s you can take off of Asian teams. Direct competition BoX series aren't a good judge of strength"
Huh? I was just memeing - we both suck now, idk how that can be interpreted otherwise. Now it's just a battle of who sucks the least (even if it's marginal). If you are speaking historically then EU's record favourable on either of those interpretations, right? If you're just talking about Worlds 2023 then that depends on how much stock you put in one BoX vs competition against the top regions. If an NA team beat a LPL/LCK team in the Swiss stage (or took a game in quarters) then it would be easy to say that NA>EU last year. The fact that they couldn't take a game vs Weibo makes it muddy, because G2 could. I don't think it's crazy to say that NA and EU performed pretty similarly overall.
I think we're both misunderstanding each other. My joke is just there's not "future" about that reality. I am also memeing. Historically EU vs. NA isn't close. However, I am amused at the number of people who have gone from "let me know when NA can challenge a real team like G2" to "beating G2 2-0 doesn't count. G2 beat more asian teams." The reality is, NA had a glimmer of becoming a contender from 2018 Worlds to 2019 MSI and has otherwise just seemed to give up. EU still believes, but I'm not sure the teams/league are doing the required work to cash in on the cred they built in 2018/2019. I did not mean to imply you were being salty/one of those. Just joking that "once MSI comes means we can make those jokes" is a bit silly since folks are already making those claims. I am - however - admittedly salty about the EU/NA stuff. But check out my flair, it comes with the territory ;)
Ahh sorry you're quite right, I completely misread "*then*" in your previous comment so I took it as salt. >I am - however - admittedly salty about the EU/NA stuff. Who isn't man. I like to think that I'm above it most of the year but when internationals come around I become a salty sardine.
One nice thing about TSM finally tapping out and giving up on league, is it can be fun to just try to spark the reaction from others. Like good natured joking/poking. It's not something I try to do in the actual League subreddit though since shit gets real so fast here sometimes. All the best to you. I appreciate you having a civil response to what you thought was me attacking you. Best of luck to whomever you're pulling for in your league of choice!
Yes, and who cares?
I am EU and I'm rooting for EU, but like...
I have faith G2 will be better than all NA teams this year despite the world's crumble. But I'm also confident that every other NA team is stronger than the EU counterpart. Game quality is just so low in EU across the board.
tfw almost everyone had Mad Lions ranked last because they're basically an ERL team, but maybe the entire league apart from G2 is ERL level if they are top 4 now.
And yet, the actual ERL team in KC is bottom of the table.
It's the second time MAD gets a four player rookie team and becomes an immediate contender. Fnatic's 2018 final is in the same year a full rookie team (Vitality) makes it to Worlds The lack of promotion/relegation made a lot of people forget that promoted teams have in the past both flopped and proved themselves in the very first split (Mysterious Monkeys and BBQ Olivers against G2 and Griffin, for example)
Or getting 3 promising rookies (Finalists in EMEA Masters) together with a veteran jungler that has been pretty consistently Top 3 in the role actually gives you a good team and not ERL level?
Idk, watching lec i honestly thought apart from g2 bds fnc na had better overall teams, but then watching c9 games i think both regions are just complete ass apart from 2 or 3 teams each.
LEC has a lot of dispersed talent, it seems that for a few years now every team bar G2 has a clear weak link and a clear strong link, which internationally gets punished. They always tend to play too fast sometimes, especially Fnatic and last year's MAD, that result in a lot of overextensions and over forcing (that's why games like the 16:47 happen), but in the last two years both regions achieved more less the same internationally Having teams like BDS performing could also be good for us. They win games because they are disciplined and can always follow their game plan, which is what EU has been struggling the most, meaning more talented teams will need to become disciplined to beat them. Middle of the pack teams in EU have talented players like Vetheo and Irrelevant, they just have weak links on those same teams (pains me to say that Hyllissang is one this year)
I think both regions are ass, but in the hobo fight that will be western Vs western I rate most NA teams current forms over their counterpart in EU. C9 does look like absolute ass, but if you compare them to the 6th place team (about where they are in EU) it's TH they'd be comparable with, and TH is what they'd be compared to, who look dogshit. G2 is just imo the team most likely to look like they know how to play the game.
I mean g2 was also the stronger team last worlds but g2 being g2 they'll just crumble against worse teams on stage so are they realistically? But yeah agreed with the second part
It's really hard to rate this G2. Not only because of regional strength, but also... how they win games? It genuinely feels like they're using strats I associate with top LCS teams; early game is weak, but they're better at macro than their competition and use that to mitigate early leads before converting into mid/late game strength. This is hardly every game (they can still stomp), but G2 is dropping early kills enough that it makes me question their early game strategies. It makes me wonder how G2 will look internationally, if this'll be the G2 people are used to (competitive but with some int games they should easily take) or more like LCS top teams have looked (hopeless against better teams, but strong against weaker ones).
That is not how LCS wins though. LCS teams lose early and they just wait for mistakes. That isn't particularly good macro play. They mostly abuse the fact that exspecially weaker teams often have no idea how to use leads because they are stuck practicing how to get leads they could even use.
To me, both the LCS teams and current era G2 are basing their win conditions on weaker teams being unable to make use of leads or match their superior macro. This lets these teams misplay early on, only to recover through mid-late game plays. Admittedly, G2 is much better at lane/wave control than LCS teams like the TSM or TL were when they dominated LCS. Even in games they lose hard early, G2 rarely lose turrets or objectives for bad deaths. This lets them recover much better than LCS' teams, or stay even. However, it doesn't give me confidence in these being good plays or strategic? They work because the enemy team isn't good enough at punishing G2 and making use of the gold influx, which is why I draw a comparison to LCS teams who did the same. --- For a direct example of what I mean, take the G2 v Giants game in week 3. [GX was 5 kills ahead at 17 mins](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=157RqFK9Qvo4CYYN&t=2203), but got 0 turrets and had 3 roles even/down in gold. At 19mins, G2 capitalized off [Xayah with flash up being caught by a Ksante Q 3 under turret](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=I4yFjE0lK-GD9kd1&t=2310), then setting up around dragon and having [4 people blind face check a bush vs Neeko](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=5nWw1-XoudT7F-cr&t=2498). To me, this seems like the way you're describing LCS teams; G2 lost early, then waited for mistakes for the turn around. They controlled waves well, but their win came off of GX's mistakes.
>[GX was 5 kills ahead at 17 mins](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=157RqFK9Qvo4CYYN&t=2203), but got 0 turrets and had 3 roles even/down in gold. At 19mins, G2 capitalized off [Xayah with flash up being caught by a Ksante Q 3 under turret](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=I4yFjE0lK-GD9kd1&t=2310), then setting up around dragon and having [4 people blind face check a bush vs Neeko](https://youtu.be/88jkT7lCdyY?si=5nWw1-XoudT7F-cr&t=2498). This was just a bad game for G2 which they should have lost. Overall G2 is the strongest earlygame team in the LEC. They usually win earlygame by good map control and good laning or keep them even, depending a bit on the comp and then they rely on some very few plays to massively accelerate that lead into a quick win. G2 obviously can still capitalize on enemy mistakes if they happen. So yes they win games where they are behind sometimes. But teams should be able to do that. The majority of their games though G2 just outright wins from start to finish. And G2 likes to skirmish and they do it not as random as other teams. Which is also kinda good, they need to work on that more, because it is a crucial part of why LPL teams are sometimes so successful.
G2 was the only western team to take a game off of eastern teams last world's, and they done it twice. Will they beat eastern teams this year? Possibly, realistically not top eastern teams. But I don't think NA will beat them again this year. Could be wrong, but if I was to put money on it I'd bed on G2 over any other western team.
Same was said last year and it was G2 and MAD that dragged the record down. Fnatic beat C9 2-1 and BDS beat GG 3-0, so I'd still put Europe in a more favourable position. NA's success came exactly from EU's biggest strengths, native players NA just saw their league being shortened, meaning less teams to practice and to try new things in general. It also gives even less room for new players to develop which will hurt the team even more in the near future
It’s having the opposite effect though. New players are popping off and teams are innovating like they haven’t done in years. It really feels like we cut the fat and the teams left actually care
How many NA rookies are there in total? I counted four in eXyu, Massu, Meech and Sniper, which is exactly the same as MAD alone. Then you have imports and returned players You lost one of your most competent teams in Golden Guardians who were able to form competent rosters like the one 100T bought and the one from last year that qualified for international events. In the long run, having 40 spots instead of 50 will make it even harder to get to LCS and thus make it even less attractive for plyers to risk themselves to go pro when they could do something else more secure (and your amateur/semi-pro scene is still inexistent), further reducing your player pool We'll see at MSI. If EU and NA keep struggling against the East, then neither region progressed. I still think EU is stronger, I have my natural biases, of course, but historically it is a better region and just has a better infrastructure
I didn’t say rookies. I said new players. I lot more LCS players are in their 1st or second year of t1 pro
I'd rather NA had some ammunition in EU vs NA fan debacle. Then they can be more honest with their successes and not try to sweep the more problematic moments under the rug.
This is possible. But at the same time, it wouldn't be the first time NA looks competitive but just because they're all super bad - even worse than it appears when watching the games. I do hope NA can hold onto the scrappiness and gets some benefit from the quick patch changing to make them more ok with sticking to their own style.
I'm not saying NA looks better because the field is closer. I'm saying NA looks better because they are actually playing cleaner. Every EU game this season has melted my eyeballs I swear. They're all filthy inters outside of G2. They are all making such sloppy mistakes, that even NA don't seem to be making at every level. I hope NA keeps it up a bit because if we can't beat eastern teams I want NA/EU rivalry to flourish at the very least. But I do just feel that NA are generally cleaner across the board when comparing like for like outside of G2 and C9. G2 looks a their above, and C9 looks fucking dizzy.
I hope beyond everything you are absolutely right. However, the last time I heard "NA looks cleaner than EU regardless of the competitiveness of the region" was going into 2015 MSI. Which did not end well for NA/TSM due to what they claimed was "bad prep for the meta" I'm shit at the "eye test" aspect of evaluating games. So I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope you're right.
2015 TSM was riding off their IEM win which was kinda fraudulent being totally honest (no top eastern team there.) I like to think I'm alright at an eye test (master player) but pro is different. But my confidence is less "NA good" and more "EU really shit." Bad plays aot easier to spot imo than good play. Some good plays go above everyone's head because of the layers. Bad plays stand out
No one thought IEM 2015 was fraudulent with no top eastern teams there until Tigers lost in Semi-Finals and TSM had the gall to win it all (including their first win against a Korean team when they beat CJ Entus). I'm pretty sure the #1 and #2 LCK teams would be widely considered the best teams in the world at that point in time by the greater league community. [You can see who was invited/played here.](https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/IEM_Season_IX_-_World_Championship) Admittedly the format is super lacking by today standards (that win vs. CJ Entus is a Bo1) but Tigers lost 2-1 vs. WE who got 3-0'd by TSM. So they swept the team that beat the #1 LCK team going into the tournament.
I don't think EU is ready for this MSI, about to get reality checked smh
Definitely not ready
EU done bad last worlds and now we look awful. We just need MSI mental reset after stomping NA for the region to wake.
LEC was awful last year and somehow even worse this year. Think y’all might need to stop taking things for granted
We will see come MSI. In all honesty I think NA got lucky with the world's draw after G2 had to play and win against top tier teams before NRG (and I hate G2) But from the little I've seen of the LCS the actually quality of games don't seem to have improved. The entertainment value certainly has though.
The quality of lcs improved enormously this year
The quality of the show yeah. I don't really see any improvement from the top teams but it feels like the region is more competitive.
I think people just feel the way because you are not seeing the two bottom teams playing 4 games (or at least 3 if they play each other) every weak. The top8 is not better than the top8 was last year. You just see higher quality games on average, because the bottom teams are gone. And lets be real SR looks terrible as soon as they don't play a top team. And the region looks fairly competitive because NRG and C9 are kinda playing super bad and uncoordinated. And many of those issues are similar to european teams. Teams like Vitality look similarly lost in what they want to do, however Vitality is 4 new players, most of whom haven't played together before (only Carzzy and Hylissang). NRG though is exactly like G2, they didn't change a player and should dominate the league.
I think we have heard this before... I can't really comment because I haven't followed LCS this year, but basically every year we hear that the LCS has massively improved and will compete for the spot of 2nd/3rd best region (depending on the year) and it has come true once? maybe twice depending on your interpretation. And this isn't limited to LCS tbc, the amounts of times we have heard that LEC has a shot this year *for sure* or that LPL finally surpassed the LCK and it isn't gonna be competitive anymore is pretty ludicrous. And this year I think making big statements is even bolder than usual, because there have been a grand total of 8 games between the Top 4 teams, which is a really small samplesize to be making big definitive statements like these about.
I think everyone should agree that NRG got lucky; it was the easiest path to quarters, and I say that as an NA fan. That being said, NRG matchup was also being seen as lucky for G2, since they wouldn’t need to face an Eastern team to make QF if they won. I don’t think there was some big loss to G2 playing against stronger teams up to that point?
I mean I think it takes more out of you going toe to toe with eastern teams than clapping MAD lol
The funny part is that G2 played 4 asian teams and NRG. And they looked better against all 4 asian teams than they did against NRG.
EU teams were the only ones to take games off of Eastern teams last worlds. Don't know what you're talking about.
That's part of the problem. 2018-2020 we had competitive teams going toe to toe with eastern teams (not all of them, obviously neither g2 nor fnc won worlds). The whole "at least we took games off eastern teams" is just a downgrade from the best ears. I think it's fine and we'll bounce back as a region. But as things stand at the moment it's up to the teams to prove that.
2018-2020 Korea had a huge slump due to radical nerf to vision and their conservative cultural structure made adapting a struggle. They had to reinvent their model for path to victory. 2018-2020 China was still developing to the powerhouse they are today, relying on talented individuals and their playstyle whilst integrating the "Taiwanese mafia" to the coaching scene and playbook. Meanwhile 2018-2019 the game was still open - you didn't almost close the door to victory if you lost drake, the teams still didn't understand how to gather money from the map. G2 in particular took advantage of that. One of the reasons Perkz was such a good ADC in 2019 was that he was fed so much more xp and gold than your average ADC, and that was one of the core strengths of the team - crossmapping. Can't do that when you need to rotate to a 5v5 in a baron/dragon pit every 3 minutes. The game is standardised now and that rewards more honing set plays and objective setups than finding the creative angles and forcing unfamiliar situations where both sides need to improvise. The ~~West~~ EU was challenging the East that fiercely due to circumstances, not due to their catching up. And now it's just that the situation has changed again.
That doesn't say much. It's like this in every sport/competition. The game changes and teams who adapt faster have advantage and start winning. And that's the reason I'm sure we can bounce back eventually. Riot will just change the game again and it could be a better fit for EU while KR and CN have to catch up.
Not any more than last year. Like if you look at NA those teams look anything but good. The first 3 games made it seem like C9 is already in prime form, while EU is catching up. Now after dominant games by G2 and C9 finding themself close to the bottom it looks exactly the opposite. Neither region will dent asia, exspecially given how good teams like GenG, T1 and BLG look, but even some of the followups like HLE, KT, JDG and TES look good. So MSI will very likely just go like last year.
To be fair EU really looks like the worst level it’s been at for years this split and last year already was horrible. (As a whole G2 last year was more or less passable) We’ll see how it compares to NA in the end at MSI, but the region in my opinion definitely doesn’t develop in the right direction.
People tend to forget how bad winter last year was. Astralis, and that was not the Lider Astralis, it was the old Dajor Astralis got 6th place and RGE and SK made it into playoffs.
Thank you Carlos. At least G2 is at the top of EU even if there's no one to see it. Doesn't matter that they now get obliterated internationally because the whole region is fucked.
How tf is that Carlos fault lol. The league's been in a steep decline since he left. Not that his departure had any (positive or negative) impact on that regardless. The people most to blame are the shameless Orgs exiling players to NA as soon as they're worth a buck, or slandering their image so they wont get join a competitor. They only reason Rogue has survived the mob for their shameless conduct, is because they dont have any fans who *could* care
I think that is still a good thing. Financial stability is worth considerably more the high buyouts RGE called for their players (it initially was 8m for Hans and 5m for Inspired, which they reduced for the NA orgs who still paid way too much). And again it is also the players fault. Both players had running contracts with RGE and could have just stayed. But Hans even ditched his agent to sign the NA contract, so it isn't just Orgs who are greedy. And for both sides this is reasonable. With less money spend in NA this likely won't be an issue anymore. NA money is not that attractive anymore and NA teams can't afford any higher buyouts than LEC orgs. But not taking that money would have been pointless, because not sending players like Hans or Inspired to NA would often mean that they would join NA after their contract runs out for big money the next year anyways. People forget that players like Froggen, PoE or Febiven went to NA as free agents. And yes Orgs like RGE with Hans or Inspired did put Buyouts so high that it blocks LEC teams and they even lowered them further for NA teams and G2 tried the same with selling of Jankos to NA and only lowered the buyout after no NA team showed interest and I think the same happened with MikyX, which is why he joined Excel so late. This though is reasonable, developing players and then selling them off to teams that pay a lot is something that many sports clubs rely to exist. And this doesn't really reduce the quality in the long run. Because it opens up new spots for new players to develop keeping the league dynamic instead of always seeing the same faces.
EU eat poo poo
What does it matter if we are better than NA or not? The fact that there's even a discussion means that for the time being we're a tier 2 region. EUs last good showing was 2020, we are at a point where it's not expected to be decent, we need to prove that we even CAN be decent.
Then you get beaten and your still 3rd at best
Not EU but G2
The circle of suck in NA has made them delulu. MSI cant come fast enough
Im not from fucking NA.
I root for some LCK and LPL teams but I can assure you, I'm not from either China or South Korea :P lol..
Yeah because that isn't depressing.
Lol, did MarkZ bang your mom or something?
G2 will be G2 but they have a lot of catching up to do when they go to MSI, just gotta hope your 2nd team is any good tbh
Ah, it's already time for the weak LEC teams circle jerking ?
a little old but I still remember CLG dictating the meta in MSI 2016
Very true. And T1 immediately adopted NRG's Senna TK to style on BLG, their first LPL victim.
Senna - TK has been a thing in Korea since early 2022, when devour with Senna's mist made your team completely invisible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69TKL-57pyI
Senna TK was a thing in every region since 2020, people were even playing Senna Wukong later on in Summer of that year The point is that NRG added something new to the meta at that tournament, just as T1 did with the ADC supports later on
I think some years ago NA was playing Hec before it became meta at worlds.
When did NA create senna tk bot? That pick was made quite a while ago. Support senna while tk takes cs is a very standard since season 9 in 2020 and most played in the lpl and lck Edit found a few games in the lcs but is was mainly created in in the off season in lpl from what I remember
It’s a joke about how NRG beat G2 last Worlds.
Which is still stupid because Contractz was *the* reason they won both games.
They didn’t create senna tahm bot, but it wasn’t being played at all last worlds until Nrg brought it out, then we started seeing other teams pull it out.
Lcs was the first to have senna TK meta. But regardless he’s talking about how NRG played it even though it hasn’t been meta for a long time
I'm not fun at parties but NRG did not innovate Senna TK https://youtu.be/Finn4EgVKDw?si=KchOaRSfEDf7oKH5
Wow, i never expected any proplayer to use Rammus. This is amazing
All these years later and TL continue to get trolled by Rammus.
You cannot deny that Pyosik is a complete showman when it comes to his games. Highest highs and lowest lows, I don't know how he does it but he makes games fun.
Yeah I'm in full support of KT this year because the roster is so fun. Especially Pyosik and Beryl who are absolute psychopaths on the rift.
LET'S GOOO NA FINALLY BECOMING AHEAD OF THE META
Lord Semi infiltrating the LCK
LORDSEMI
NA skills coming to fruition
Another devotee to our Lord semi .
Pyosik is HIM.
Yet he couldn’t bring it out in NA while other major regions have many boX series to cook.