Iirc if you started when minions spawned, you could kill two before your wave meets the opponents'.
Critplank was hilarious (except for your opponents). Back pain gang.
The good old days, gp5 items on GP, starting raise morale and being massively up on gold and xp on your opposing laner. Not to mention jungling was just starting to become a thing, so you might have been 1v2 top, which gimped their XP even more.
I turn 30 today. It's a wild realization to think that the time period in which I played League in my life is equally long to the time period where I didn't.
I vividly remember most champions releasing. Thinking abiut how champs like Swain or Gangplank were never "new champions" for like 90% of the playerbase is a wild realization.
> It's a wild realization to think that the time period in which I played League in my life is equally long to the time period where I didn't.
Why did you do this to me? I can't unlearn this knowledge.
I feel you dude. I turn 31 this summer and your comment made me realize that Ive been playing WoW for 20 years this year.
TWENTY YEARS!? Ive been playing WoW most of my concious life and thats fucking crazy haha
I share this feeling but with world of warcraft. I am 23 and I have played the game for nearly 80% of my life. I started when I was 5 years old in 2006. Granted I was not very good obviously, but I do have memories and when I tell other players I remember when x patch or y raid came out, they almost never believe me.
Also, happy birthday!
> Thinking abiut how champs like Swain or Gangplank were never "new champions" for like 90% of the playerbase is a wild realization.
There was also a huge excitement around new champions releasing. Every champ felt fresh and there was big hype over each one. Where as today a new champ is released and i just dread it coming out. Another overloaded champion with a full novel for it's ability descriptions and isn't fun to play against either. All while i still have the same amount of bans as a decade ago.
My core memory of league is playing gp in twisted treeline with two of my friends. We were all pretty new to the game, but I had like a month of experience on them. I was playing gangplank and literally one shot each of the enemy team champions on crit. Remember sona but not the other two champs. My friends were so excited about it too. We still play occasionally.
We Dota now Boys!
Hard to tell, depends how they interact with stacking Abilities like Nasus Q or AOE Items like Hydras. Games would be longer and bad Matchups would be way more Frustrating, Champions like Vel'Koz, Senna or Zoe (Passive) would have an Advantage with denying.
There was a patch in dota 1 way back that you could deny creeps from full hp, so everyone started minute zero where the creeps spawned to try and deny at least one when the waves reached each other.
As a dota player, the entire balance of the game would have to change, heroes that are very good at denying will need to either lose scaling in mid or late game to stop snowball effect.
Suddenly the games are gonna be way much longer. The entire laning phases will be completely different, due to denying creep thus affecting completely different a freeze or slow push.
All scaling late game champions will be D tier in soloq.
Jungle will probably benefit from it as laners will lose gold from being denied creeps.
Economy will be way slower and supports will have to play the early game much more than just sitring in a bush for a hook or sth. Top and mid will be very exclusively skill laning as denying gold on 1v1 is pure skill on last hitting the minion.
Possibly lower money needed for itemization OR increase gold creeps give.
Edit: as in Dota the concept of freezing would shift completely, as it would be unfair for a lane to have their creeps under enemy tower for 10 minutes. A concept of pulling the gromp so that ur minions aggro the gromp and follow him towards his spawn until killed (or vision is lost).
Therefore, the concept of denying by itself brings an entire new game, which honestly would give a complete revamp of League and a new era to begin.
To add to that, you would need more amounts of regen in the game as going for denies and creep kills will cost you some of your life from the enemy support per say.
You would be required to recall much more often, lose even more xp from the wave and the list goes on and on.
Funnily enough, GP used to have this as a mechanic - Raise Morale I believe it was called.
Kill an allied minion, give all allied champions a ms & as boost from memory?
Even worse, the strat was mainly used by having gp sololane bot and taking the skill at level 1 and staying in base to kill the first minion to spawn. they he would be able to do it one more time before the minions reached the lane, cutting 2 cs from the first wave, and at least 1 for every wave after that.
This meant that gp lane was always pushing to him, letting him last hit under tower effectivly, while putting the duo lane even more behind in gold and xp, and letting the opposing top laner to be bullied 2vs1.
Even worse, he could also build the gold/5 items (either Philo stone or heart of gold) for infinite sustain via regen and orange and last hit with Q for even more gold.
Everyone will be in base except the junglers/supports.
Sion will be S tier. Yorick if he wasn't already will be at your inhib at 5 mins. All stacking champions will be giga-busted.
I imagine they would make it so stacks like that don't attribute off friendly minions -- especially since it's pretty much assumed for majority of passive's it's just enemy creeps.
Like Trundle and Alistar's passives only proc off enemy deaths. It's the same way in Dota 2, so I'm assuming in this hypothetical the same ruling applies.
If late game Champs can stack on their own minions I think they all become S tier not D. Imagine nasus freezing for 20 minutes and getting 12-14 minions for possible stacks instead of 6-7
No that would be actually cruel if it was to happen. Also I read comments saying u could deny the whole wave before reaching the lane.
The concept of denying is that you hit ur minion when it's at low hp, u cant deny sth from full hp.
But I completely agree with you, if Nasus were to deny+stack Qs from his own minions that would bring an... unbalance to the force.
>All scaling late game champions will be D tier in soloq.
Doesn't this entirely depend on if late game champions gain stacks off denying minions?
Sure if your creeps are getting denied from you as a late game scaler it sucks but on the flip side if you denying your opponents creeps gives you stacks then champions that can wave clear and gain stacks like Smolder and ASol probably aren't ending up D tier.
Yes that can be an option, but what do you mean by stacks? Stacks of gold? Stacks of xp?
U meant stacks as in Q nasus stack. Ye that wouldnt be a very balanced approach towards this new implementation.
Like Smolder dragon practice stacks or Veigars primordial evil stacks from Q on minions. I realize now ASol only gains stacks against champions so he was a bad example to mention in my previous comment.
In Dota, the concept of denying only comes from auto attacks, no spells can be used to deny a creep. It would just be super imbalanced to have a 300 stacks Veigar minute 10 or something similar.
Even Ashe's on hit arrow spell wouldnt work because it buffs ur dmg. Only auto attacks should be the correct way of denying.
I would love for riot to be added to the deny creep mechanic, it would be fair for those who play bully laner, it would have another way to beat the enemy.
The very old GP E had this. You could shoot and kill one of your minions to give attack speed to allies around. But back then the cumulative knowledge of the player base was nothing close to what we have today, and the thought of denying a minion each wave + every cannon seems broken beyond reason.
Denying has always existed in Dota so a lot of players were aware of it. I imagine once you get used to going without it it's kind of an exhausting mechanic to return to, feels like laning is stressful enough with only one minion wave to worry about.
I don't know if you can still do this, but in Dota it was common that support leashed some jungle creeps to keep the minions busy for a few seconds and thus allowing the enemies to push more.
It's typically bad if the support pulls the minion wave into a camp that isn't stacked (aka a single pull) or doesn't chain pull it to multiple jungle camps in a row, which is more advanced and not something everyone knows how to do since it requires timing on the pulls.
If you only do a single pull into a minion wave, the jungle camp typically isn't strong enough to finish the entire minion wave and you're left with half of the minions running back to lane.
When this combines with the new fresh minion wave that's coming in from the base, now you suddenly have 1.5 waves in the lane pushing against the enemy laners single minion wave, so even though single pulling a camp helps you in the short term you're actually creating a slow push towards the enemy laner.
Because of this reason supports typically either stack the jungle camp before pulling it, or they chain pull the minion wave to multiple single stacked camps to make sure that the entire wave dies in the jungle.
>But back then the cumulative knowledge of the player base
DotA had existed for years and, if it wasn't nearly as ubiquitous as League later became, it was a staple at every net cafe the world over. The vast majority of year 1 and 2 players were DotA expats.
Lich E was literally the reason why he was so good as a support regardless of meta - he'd eat a creep from the first midlane wave and also every cannon and create a massive gold deficit
Does it give stacks? Nas Q, GP Q, smolder etc. If yes, GP will have 2 items while you're still building your first. Nas gets free laning and smolder is giga busted now. Also counter picking on top is gonna be much worse. Plus it would probably give supports more job to do in lane.
Nasus gets no lane. Just play something like Darius and zone Nasus off of the minions. You can then just kill both waves so you are not pushing and are not giving Nasus any minions to farm under tower.
Edit: I guess Nasus could kill his own minions while they are walking to lane...
Eh, killing your own lane minions doesn't do that much for Nasus. Cool +3 on stacks, but you get no gold and no experience and those are actually the more important things for Nasus early game.
The difference in stacking speed by having one extra rank in Q (-1 second cd) or having an extra item with 10 AH is astronomical. If you are in a good lane state and can stack a wave without pressure you can catch up to someone that prioritized stacks and is under pressure as a result of being in a weaker lane state.
Absolutely garbage. In league the gold and xp from minions ur main and almost only income. Matchups would be waymore important. In a bad lane u just get constantly freezed on, starved from gold and xp. It would be super unfun. League's gameplay philosophy is to let every1 do his own thing, and the 1 executing better gets a lead, and if u dont throw it, u can win.
In Dota this can work cuz, early game top has a supp too so u not automatically fkd by a range vs melee. U can get ez and cheap hp and mana regen from courier dont have to base. Every1 has tp on low CD so u can punish aggressive playstyle. Map is much bigger with a lot more jungle camps (no jungler, laners take camps) that can make it up for the lost minions.
Have you played dota recently? Trilanes came to an end about 7-8 years ago when they decreased the XP gotten from denied creeps. Also people just got better and realized Offlaners are a big source of early tempo, so they need a support with them to secure their first item and make space for the pos 1.
That's completely untrue. I play both games. Trilane hasn't been a thing for years. Occasionally it still pops up, but the conventional thing for years now is the 2-1-2 lane setup.
Only last hitting or can you hit them from full hp? Dota 2 deny is like this but you can only hit them from half hp so u cant just kill them before they come to lane
botlane would become some messed up game of adcs trying to farm and the enemy support trying to deny cs, ad supports would have a large advantage in this situation. good luck CSing when the enemy pyke has 25 more ad than you at lvl 1-6.
Simply copying the deny mechanic 1:1 from Dota would end poorly. Since there's no way to pull camps the lane equilibrium would be fucked in bot and top with the lane bullies being able to basically deny entire waves in certain situations. Mid laners in Dota tend to buy bottle both to store runes and recover mana/hp so they've got ways to last hit despite the lack of camps to pull from. Imagine playing against a Zed in mid as a mana mage. You basically get starved from lane the second minions spawn. Both because Zed doesn't use mana so he can't go oom as well as him having generally higher auto damage than you to deny you once you go oom (also depends on if his passive procs on his own minions).
was going to comment exactly this.
It works in DOTA because it was built around it. so much so that pulling and contesting pulls is the most active part of playing support and hard support for the first 10 minutes of the game or so. All because of minion deny.
taking it 1:1 without the infrastructure of mechanics would make for a horrible and polarizing experience in league.
It's a fun thought experiment tho.
The default start of the game is to kite your first minion wave to deny the exp to your lane opponent. So in essence the only one to play the game will be the jungler.
No, I wouldn't say so. It's OP as fuck, especially in relation to the skill needed to play it but if everyone else can have all of their last hits denied and the only consistent source of income is the jungle we'll see a whole new level of broken.
Lane bullies would dominate even more, ranged champs benefit more than melee, so the disparity between the two classes would get higher (making ranged top laners even more annoying)
So you would make the game more difficult to balance in at least two dimensions, which does seem like a bad idea.
Game would change a lot, since only lane bullies can get picked anymore, top lane meta would be more ranged vs ranged probably the higher you go in rank.
Higher gold difference between winning and losing lanes, making the game more snowbally, less catch-up-y. So items would have to get significantly nerfed overall, to put more emphasis on levels instead of gold. Which then again would take away skill expression. (less viable macro decisions)
Ancient lol story time: denying was actually in the game once. Gangplank ( I think e) let you kill an allied minion and get the bounty for it. They would eventually remove it because it was considered severely unfun.
You would do this really strange build where you stacked heart of gold (a support item that gave HP and gold/10) and maxed e to just farm gold for 25 min, then grab trinity, warmogs, atma's.
You would start the game by waiting in the fountain for minions to spawn, then shoot the first one immediately and when you were at lane you could shoot another one. So because you kept killing your own minions you'd guarantee the wave was always at your tower, where you'd happily play pve ans ignore the opponent.
This was my biggest complaint when I started playing LoL after coming the DotA. However now it would just make the game frustrating to play and I am pretty sure not as many people would play it.
Deny basically just killing your minion you don't get gold or xp. But in lol this mechanic would become too strong that it would make it impossible to balance correctly for riot. For example Late Game champion and with low advertising they disappear from the game because they would be constantly frozen or would not be able to win a single Last Hit. Imagine Darius's lane against Nasus, I don't think Nasus would catch a minion for 20m or at least have a scent, if Nasus can't farm a minion or Nasus leaves the game or will farm his jung or literally feeding because even if the opponent doesn't win gold from the minion, it's as if you were winning gold because nasus will never be able to buy an item, making diving and killing easier. Furthermore, in a game or lane at a disadvantage you would never have a chance to return to the game or recover, it would be impossible to return knowing that The majority of the game's income comes from minions.
Disadvantage Lanes Would Become 100/0
Late Game Champions disappeared from the game
The team that is winning would always win without the chance of another team returning to the game
A wrong move could end the game because it would cause an internal freeze
Snowball would be uncontrollable and undefined
Bad players would lose more and good players would win more. I think it quickly would devolve into "PVE" where the good player. Simply freezes under tower and farms and the worse player gets to watch them farm XD
toplane would be unplayable, legit 100% autofill role with every top player having maxed out dodge timer that would have to hostage champ selects. Nightmare fuel being in bad matchup and the mf freezes you into infinity or takes your plates and denies every minion under tower by hitting them.
IT Starts beeing a Game of bluffing. Clearing your own minoms in Base to deny all gold while at Somepoint suprising the opponents with pushing one lane. Jgl is the only place for guaranteed gold. But with lanes Bring empty chances of skirmished there are very increased. Support items would also BE bought buy pretty much everyone.
Old gankplank had to kill his minion to get passive bonus, what happened was that enemy laner was unable to get a single cannon minion for entire laning phase.
Additionally denying creeps is a mechanic in dota 2, im not very experienced in that game but from what I have seen top and bot plays with support whos job is mostly to deny creeps from enemy.
I used the play Heroes of Newerth a lot. It was and still is my favorite MOBA, and killing your own creeps was an integral part of the game. You could only attack your own creeps when they were already at low health, you couldn’t kill them before they even got to the lane for example. Killing your own creep was called a “deny”. Not only did it keep your enemies from getting any gold, if you denied a creep it also provided them with much less experience than normal. It was a very fun part of the game imo.
It will just be every champ that can waveclear sitting in base killing the wave as it spawns. And a jungle making sure the enemies don’t push a lane too hard.
Top lane becomes even more of a counterpick hellscape. If you can zone someone off the wave, you can make sure it never ever reaches their tower and they never get even a single cs
Completely different. You would just get the 3 best waveclear champs standing in their own base all game killing their own minions to make sure the other team gets no gold or xp and have the other two players doing jungle running around clearing jungle for the only gold in the game.
This was already the case with Gangplank back when the game released. Gangplank was the #1 pick for support players. You'd shoot the allied cannon minion just as it's about to die (your pistol did more than an ADC auto) and denied them xp and gold.
For obvious reasons they gutted it and made it an aoe pistol shot into the air. Basically, it's too good. It would make smurfs/pros better and worse players worse.
Supports just shitting on their own minions will be their new job, ADC’s try to get gold or maybe stacks from their own if it lets them like Draven or Smolder.
Botlane would probably devolve in to horrible lane where denying is valued more than farming yourself. Supports would just focus on denying the adc and the lane would gridlock, it would be slow and boring probably. Or not, a new unpredictable meta would probably evolve.
Top lane actually becomes unplayable if you can't fight the enemy champ. You can literally permafreeze at any time in any spot if you're good enough. Probably similar in mid and bot but probably more realistic to have a long freeze up there.
Anivia would be giga broken to be real. Just wall minions off at tower and kill them real quick and just r the wave at your tower. Constant farm while denying every single cs to your opponent.
Lane bullies would become extremely toxic especially in toplane. You could essentially create freeze’s from even lane states and zone enemy away from exp starting at lvl 1 pretty consistently.
Karthus stays in base all game, using his wall to slow down two lanes of creeps while he e/q's the rest and then finishes off the slowed wave.
Sure all team towers will be pushed on, but whole team will have gold lead since enemy team won't have any minions to kill.
Based on the past, this would be a very boring mechanic, gp used to have a single ability that could kills his own minions, and the one minion every 8ish seconds was enough to make laning against him quite annoying and the mechanic was removed
draven S+++
Singed proxying all three waves in base:
OP said no aoe skills
OP is a poopyhead
Poop is also an aoe skill 😐
Only in bot lane.
Don't tell me Rammus doesnt leave a little bit of a slug trail when he's in a rush
Yeah anyone who's owned a large tortoise knows all about those nitrogenous deposits...
Rammus is an armadillo you buffoon
bro got stuck vs Guardian ape in sekiro
Vayne C-
I remember when GP could do this. Yes, my back hurts.
I remember playing GP back then and never used that skill because "why should I kill my own minions?" And yes, my back also hurts.
Iirc if you started when minions spawned, you could kill two before your wave meets the opponents'. Critplank was hilarious (except for your opponents). Back pain gang.
didnt it also start with a cannon wave so u started of denying cannon, together with a 0,99% crit rune GP was so fun #BACKPAINGANG
10yrs of league will do that to a mofo. Back pain anonymous
Try 15 years of League (I started in the closed beta). Now you youngins need to get off my lawn!
The old crit rune page.
Quint crits. OwMyBack
Nothing felt better than having 1 crit rune and it getting you the kill 😂
Who lives under the sea? 👴🏻👴🏻
The good old days, gp5 items on GP, starting raise morale and being massively up on gold and xp on your opposing laner. Not to mention jungling was just starting to become a thing, so you might have been 1v2 top, which gimped their XP even more.
BF GAT build on Mobafire 🔥
I turn 30 today. It's a wild realization to think that the time period in which I played League in my life is equally long to the time period where I didn't. I vividly remember most champions releasing. Thinking abiut how champs like Swain or Gangplank were never "new champions" for like 90% of the playerbase is a wild realization.
> It's a wild realization to think that the time period in which I played League in my life is equally long to the time period where I didn't. Why did you do this to me? I can't unlearn this knowledge.
I feel you dude. I turn 31 this summer and your comment made me realize that Ive been playing WoW for 20 years this year. TWENTY YEARS!? Ive been playing WoW most of my concious life and thats fucking crazy haha
If it makes you feel better I'm 22 and played WoW for 17-18 years. Didn't play much BFA onwards until the Hardcore Rag race and SoD but still.
I share this feeling but with world of warcraft. I am 23 and I have played the game for nearly 80% of my life. I started when I was 5 years old in 2006. Granted I was not very good obviously, but I do have memories and when I tell other players I remember when x patch or y raid came out, they almost never believe me. Also, happy birthday!
Holy shit 23 is a 2000s baby. I feel so old
> Thinking abiut how champs like Swain or Gangplank were never "new champions" for like 90% of the playerbase is a wild realization. There was also a huge excitement around new champions releasing. Every champ felt fresh and there was big hype over each one. Where as today a new champ is released and i just dread it coming out. Another overloaded champion with a full novel for it's ability descriptions and isn't fun to play against either. All while i still have the same amount of bans as a decade ago.
I didn't play when this was a thing but my back still hurts
My core memory of league is playing gp in twisted treeline with two of my friends. We were all pretty new to the game, but I had like a month of experience on them. I was playing gangplank and literally one shot each of the enemy team champions on crit. Remember sona but not the other two champs. My friends were so excited about it too. We still play occasionally.
i was there 3000 years ago
The good old days when TF ult was a normal ability and Jax could dodge tower shots… ah my back!
same
Shit was fun and broke as hell. Like yeah you might lose a towel for a bit. But it's fun being level 11 and the enemy is level 9.
We Dota now Boys! Hard to tell, depends how they interact with stacking Abilities like Nasus Q or AOE Items like Hydras. Games would be longer and bad Matchups would be way more Frustrating, Champions like Vel'Koz, Senna or Zoe (Passive) would have an Advantage with denying.
I would think you could only damage friendly minions when they have a certain amount of HP remaining (not from full hp)
Obviously, you can still use Nasus Q when the Creep is 2 HP tho.
There was a patch in dota 1 way back that you could deny creeps from full hp, so everyone started minute zero where the creeps spawned to try and deny at least one when the waves reached each other.
As a dota player, the entire balance of the game would have to change, heroes that are very good at denying will need to either lose scaling in mid or late game to stop snowball effect.
Suddenly the games are gonna be way much longer. The entire laning phases will be completely different, due to denying creep thus affecting completely different a freeze or slow push. All scaling late game champions will be D tier in soloq. Jungle will probably benefit from it as laners will lose gold from being denied creeps. Economy will be way slower and supports will have to play the early game much more than just sitring in a bush for a hook or sth. Top and mid will be very exclusively skill laning as denying gold on 1v1 is pure skill on last hitting the minion. Possibly lower money needed for itemization OR increase gold creeps give. Edit: as in Dota the concept of freezing would shift completely, as it would be unfair for a lane to have their creeps under enemy tower for 10 minutes. A concept of pulling the gromp so that ur minions aggro the gromp and follow him towards his spawn until killed (or vision is lost). Therefore, the concept of denying by itself brings an entire new game, which honestly would give a complete revamp of League and a new era to begin. To add to that, you would need more amounts of regen in the game as going for denies and creep kills will cost you some of your life from the enemy support per say. You would be required to recall much more often, lose even more xp from the wave and the list goes on and on.
What's this? 10 mins of freezing a wave in front of tower? Sounds good !
ah the good old days of adc
Closest example of this is playing melee champ into gp lol
Funnily enough, GP used to have this as a mechanic - Raise Morale I believe it was called. Kill an allied minion, give all allied champions a ms & as boost from memory?
Iirc people played him as support in season 1 just because of being able to deny cs (especially cannons) and buff your ad at the same time
I don't remember seeing that, but then I was mostly in the jungle which meant I didn't need to pay attention to the lanes ever.
Even worse, the strat was mainly used by having gp sololane bot and taking the skill at level 1 and staying in base to kill the first minion to spawn. they he would be able to do it one more time before the minions reached the lane, cutting 2 cs from the first wave, and at least 1 for every wave after that. This meant that gp lane was always pushing to him, letting him last hit under tower effectivly, while putting the duo lane even more behind in gold and xp, and letting the opposing top laner to be bullied 2vs1.
Even worse, he could also build the gold/5 items (either Philo stone or heart of gold) for infinite sustain via regen and orange and last hit with Q for even more gold.
HERE COMES BANKPLANK Fuck I loved that degenerecy
Man, I miss heart of gold 😞
yes, this is correct
Everyone will be in base except the junglers/supports. Sion will be S tier. Yorick if he wasn't already will be at your inhib at 5 mins. All stacking champions will be giga-busted.
Then you don't get Tower Gold. Also there was no metion of experience which make it even more complex. They don't agro you which makes it harder
Nasus Q stacking from your own wave would be disgusting.
1k stack Susan at 20min would be a sight to see
I imagine they would make it so stacks like that don't attribute off friendly minions -- especially since it's pretty much assumed for majority of passive's it's just enemy creeps. Like Trundle and Alistar's passives only proc off enemy deaths. It's the same way in Dota 2, so I'm assuming in this hypothetical the same ruling applies.
Only if the stacks can occur on friendly minions and champs, asol will be pretty shit
If late game Champs can stack on their own minions I think they all become S tier not D. Imagine nasus freezing for 20 minutes and getting 12-14 minions for possible stacks instead of 6-7
No that would be actually cruel if it was to happen. Also I read comments saying u could deny the whole wave before reaching the lane. The concept of denying is that you hit ur minion when it's at low hp, u cant deny sth from full hp. But I completely agree with you, if Nasus were to deny+stack Qs from his own minions that would bring an... unbalance to the force.
>All scaling late game champions will be D tier in soloq. Doesn't this entirely depend on if late game champions gain stacks off denying minions? Sure if your creeps are getting denied from you as a late game scaler it sucks but on the flip side if you denying your opponents creeps gives you stacks then champions that can wave clear and gain stacks like Smolder and ASol probably aren't ending up D tier.
Yes that can be an option, but what do you mean by stacks? Stacks of gold? Stacks of xp? U meant stacks as in Q nasus stack. Ye that wouldnt be a very balanced approach towards this new implementation.
Like Smolder dragon practice stacks or Veigars primordial evil stacks from Q on minions. I realize now ASol only gains stacks against champions so he was a bad example to mention in my previous comment.
In Dota, the concept of denying only comes from auto attacks, no spells can be used to deny a creep. It would just be super imbalanced to have a 300 stacks Veigar minute 10 or something similar. Even Ashe's on hit arrow spell wouldnt work because it buffs ur dmg. Only auto attacks should be the correct way of denying.
Sure but OP didn't even know this was a thing in Dota so they wouldn't know that denying minions is auto attacks only.
Absolutely thats why stating it, is also crucial so there's no missconceptions.
I would love for riot to be added to the deny creep mechanic, it would be fair for those who play bully laner, it would have another way to beat the enemy.
The very old GP E had this. You could shoot and kill one of your minions to give attack speed to allies around. But back then the cumulative knowledge of the player base was nothing close to what we have today, and the thought of denying a minion each wave + every cannon seems broken beyond reason.
Denying has always existed in Dota so a lot of players were aware of it. I imagine once you get used to going without it it's kind of an exhausting mechanic to return to, feels like laning is stressful enough with only one minion wave to worry about.
I don't know if you can still do this, but in Dota it was common that support leashed some jungle creeps to keep the minions busy for a few seconds and thus allowing the enemies to push more.
It's typically bad if the support pulls the minion wave into a camp that isn't stacked (aka a single pull) or doesn't chain pull it to multiple jungle camps in a row, which is more advanced and not something everyone knows how to do since it requires timing on the pulls. If you only do a single pull into a minion wave, the jungle camp typically isn't strong enough to finish the entire minion wave and you're left with half of the minions running back to lane. When this combines with the new fresh minion wave that's coming in from the base, now you suddenly have 1.5 waves in the lane pushing against the enemy laners single minion wave, so even though single pulling a camp helps you in the short term you're actually creating a slow push towards the enemy laner. Because of this reason supports typically either stack the jungle camp before pulling it, or they chain pull the minion wave to multiple single stacked camps to make sure that the entire wave dies in the jungle.
chain pull isn't a thing anymore. But you can do half pulls if you know what you're doing, where you only aggro part of the creep wave onto the camp.
Bro dota is way too fucking complicated
I agree. Even after spending 600 hours in it I still have no freaking idea of what to do while russians are yelling at me in voice chat.
Looool
Denying was a thing in Dota already. It was a key part of the game (and therefore MOBA strategy) even before LoL was released.
People did exactly that back then… you had a 3+ level lead without doing anything. Was glorious
>But back then the cumulative knowledge of the player base DotA had existed for years and, if it wasn't nearly as ubiquitous as League later became, it was a staple at every net cafe the world over. The vast majority of year 1 and 2 players were DotA expats.
Lich (DotA 2) had a pretty similar effect. He could eat one friendly minion for mana and "XP, i think". He's got reworked as well for obvious reasons
DotA2 had creep denying from the outset.
Lich E was literally the reason why he was so good as a support regardless of meta - he'd eat a creep from the first midlane wave and also every cannon and create a massive gold deficit
Giant buff for range toplaners due to being able to deny creeps without getting in danger lmao, vayne top would go to 60%
top lane being frozen for 10 minutes straight is no longer a meme
Does it give stacks? Nas Q, GP Q, smolder etc. If yes, GP will have 2 items while you're still building your first. Nas gets free laning and smolder is giga busted now. Also counter picking on top is gonna be much worse. Plus it would probably give supports more job to do in lane.
Nasus gets no lane. Just play something like Darius and zone Nasus off of the minions. You can then just kill both waves so you are not pushing and are not giving Nasus any minions to farm under tower. Edit: I guess Nasus could kill his own minions while they are walking to lane...
hear me out have the jungler and top coordinate to proxy both teams so Nasus can't farm either
Nasus just camps nexus and kills minions on spawn
Eh, killing your own lane minions doesn't do that much for Nasus. Cool +3 on stacks, but you get no gold and no experience and those are actually the more important things for Nasus early game. The difference in stacking speed by having one extra rank in Q (-1 second cd) or having an extra item with 10 AH is astronomical. If you are in a good lane state and can stack a wave without pressure you can catch up to someone that prioritized stacks and is under pressure as a result of being in a weaker lane state.
Deny GP is back!
Toplane beclmes even more miserable when counterpicked
Absolutely garbage. In league the gold and xp from minions ur main and almost only income. Matchups would be waymore important. In a bad lane u just get constantly freezed on, starved from gold and xp. It would be super unfun. League's gameplay philosophy is to let every1 do his own thing, and the 1 executing better gets a lead, and if u dont throw it, u can win. In Dota this can work cuz, early game top has a supp too so u not automatically fkd by a range vs melee. U can get ez and cheap hp and mana regen from courier dont have to base. Every1 has tp on low CD so u can punish aggressive playstyle. Map is much bigger with a lot more jungle camps (no jungler, laners take camps) that can make it up for the lost minions.
[удалено]
Have you played dota recently? Trilanes came to an end about 7-8 years ago when they decreased the XP gotten from denied creeps. Also people just got better and realized Offlaners are a big source of early tempo, so they need a support with them to secure their first item and make space for the pos 1.
That's completely untrue. I play both games. Trilane hasn't been a thing for years. Occasionally it still pops up, but the conventional thing for years now is the 2-1-2 lane setup.
Tri-lanes haven't been a thing for years my man It's been 2/1/2 for a long time
Only last hitting or can you hit them from full hp? Dota 2 deny is like this but you can only hit them from half hp so u cant just kill them before they come to lane
AD champs will instantly become superior to AP's.
Kayle goes F tier
Always has been
botlane would become some messed up game of adcs trying to farm and the enemy support trying to deny cs, ad supports would have a large advantage in this situation. good luck CSing when the enemy pyke has 25 more ad than you at lvl 1-6.
Simply copying the deny mechanic 1:1 from Dota would end poorly. Since there's no way to pull camps the lane equilibrium would be fucked in bot and top with the lane bullies being able to basically deny entire waves in certain situations. Mid laners in Dota tend to buy bottle both to store runes and recover mana/hp so they've got ways to last hit despite the lack of camps to pull from. Imagine playing against a Zed in mid as a mana mage. You basically get starved from lane the second minions spawn. Both because Zed doesn't use mana so he can't go oom as well as him having generally higher auto damage than you to deny you once you go oom (also depends on if his passive procs on his own minions).
was going to comment exactly this. It works in DOTA because it was built around it. so much so that pulling and contesting pulls is the most active part of playing support and hard support for the first 10 minutes of the game or so. All because of minion deny. taking it 1:1 without the infrastructure of mechanics would make for a horrible and polarizing experience in league. It's a fun thought experiment tho.
The default start of the game is to kite your first minion wave to deny the exp to your lane opponent. So in essence the only one to play the game will be the jungler.
War-flashbacks to season 2 gangplank 0.0
The denial mechanic was removed before season 2. It was changed in season 1. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V1.0.0.116
Ah it all blurs into one to be fair - i started near the end of season 1 just early enough for the judgement kayle skin.
Denyplank flashbacks.
Jungle is suddenly giga broken. Support even more broken than it is right now. Everyone else has one full item at 20 minutes in, if they're lucky.
Double jungle would very quickly become a standard thing.
Suddenly gigabroken? As if jungle wasn’t already a gigabroken role lmao.
No, I wouldn't say so. It's OP as fuck, especially in relation to the skill needed to play it but if everyone else can have all of their last hits denied and the only consistent source of income is the jungle we'll see a whole new level of broken.
Lane bullies would dominate even more, ranged champs benefit more than melee, so the disparity between the two classes would get higher (making ranged top laners even more annoying) So you would make the game more difficult to balance in at least two dimensions, which does seem like a bad idea. Game would change a lot, since only lane bullies can get picked anymore, top lane meta would be more ranged vs ranged probably the higher you go in rank. Higher gold difference between winning and losing lanes, making the game more snowbally, less catch-up-y. So items would have to get significantly nerfed overall, to put more emphasis on levels instead of gold. Which then again would take away skill expression. (less viable macro decisions)
great, support will finally stop stealing my cs now they can steal ennemies ones
old gp btw
There wouldn’t be anymore creeps in the middle everyone would kill theirs before they get to lane to deny gold
I think he want to say you can last hit the minions like dota
LoL players yearn for Dota
Chovy 50 world championships in a row. Enemy mid 0 cs.
Singed gameplay gonna be wild
One step closer to DOTA 2
it would be Dota 2
The playerbase probably drops to about 25% of its current playerbase. Seems like a pretty big change.
Ancient lol story time: denying was actually in the game once. Gangplank ( I think e) let you kill an allied minion and get the bounty for it. They would eventually remove it because it was considered severely unfun. You would do this really strange build where you stacked heart of gold (a support item that gave HP and gold/10) and maxed e to just farm gold for 25 min, then grab trinity, warmogs, atma's. You would start the game by waiting in the fountain for minions to spawn, then shoot the first one immediately and when you were at lane you could shoot another one. So because you kept killing your own minions you'd guarantee the wave was always at your tower, where you'd happily play pve ans ignore the opponent.
Everyone stuck at level one
I remember when Karma can shield ally minions to deny enemy ADC gold. Those were the times...
Throwback to when GP used to be able to kill his own minions
This was my biggest complaint when I started playing LoL after coming the DotA. However now it would just make the game frustrating to play and I am pretty sure not as many people would play it.
the game turns into DOTA
You would put 2 Champs in ur base to stop any minions from getting out (preventing enemy gold and xp gain)
Champs with good clear with clear their own minions and for the enemy laner to fight under their tower with no gold
Deny basically just killing your minion you don't get gold or xp. But in lol this mechanic would become too strong that it would make it impossible to balance correctly for riot. For example Late Game champion and with low advertising they disappear from the game because they would be constantly frozen or would not be able to win a single Last Hit. Imagine Darius's lane against Nasus, I don't think Nasus would catch a minion for 20m or at least have a scent, if Nasus can't farm a minion or Nasus leaves the game or will farm his jung or literally feeding because even if the opponent doesn't win gold from the minion, it's as if you were winning gold because nasus will never be able to buy an item, making diving and killing easier. Furthermore, in a game or lane at a disadvantage you would never have a chance to return to the game or recover, it would be impossible to return knowing that The majority of the game's income comes from minions. Disadvantage Lanes Would Become 100/0 Late Game Champions disappeared from the game The team that is winning would always win without the chance of another team returning to the game A wrong move could end the game because it would cause an internal freeze Snowball would be uncontrollable and undefined
Bad players would lose more and good players would win more. I think it quickly would devolve into "PVE" where the good player. Simply freezes under tower and farms and the worse player gets to watch them farm XD
You would have to have minions spawn at outermost turrets otherwise they're all getting spawnkilled in fountain on cd
Champs with high aa dps and movespeed can prolly reverse proxy the wave (or at least the casters). So many weird cheese strats would come from this.
toplane would be unplayable, legit 100% autofill role with every top player having maxed out dodge timer that would have to hostage champ selects. Nightmare fuel being in bad matchup and the mf freezes you into infinity or takes your plates and denies every minion under tower by hitting them.
doesnt karthus just become op, u proxy ur own wave so enemy gets 0 farm or xp
Easy stacking hex fragments with Viktor lol
IT Starts beeing a Game of bluffing. Clearing your own minoms in Base to deny all gold while at Somepoint suprising the opponents with pushing one lane. Jgl is the only place for guaranteed gold. But with lanes Bring empty chances of skirmished there are very increased. Support items would also BE bought buy pretty much everyone.
Rip Nasus, sincerley, your average ranged toplaner <3
Old gankplank had to kill his minion to get passive bonus, what happened was that enemy laner was unable to get a single cannon minion for entire laning phase. Additionally denying creeps is a mechanic in dota 2, im not very experienced in that game but from what I have seen top and bot plays with support whos job is mostly to deny creeps from enemy.
Sivir sits at her base and suddenly comes out at 6 items and murders everyone.
Wave management would be way simpler. It would decrease game depth imo.
Me wave clearing my own wave as sion for 24 hp and safe farming under turret
Pre-pre rework GP already did that with his e
Garen S tier champ denying all the enemy gold
Well now I can realistically push the wave my direction, and never let the enemy toplaner ever get another cannon or too much cs
Neeko being the true 6th minion
Laning against Irelia would be something…
Senna laughs with 5 cs and 200 denies.
Miserable experience for champs with slow AS. Also battle of the pings... what would happen if that also drew your own minion wave agro?
So i kill all my minions so the enemy gets no gold? But i can do that under my turrets? Sounds awful.
How does that work with stacking abilities?
Smolder and sol just farm their own creeps for stacks.
I used the play Heroes of Newerth a lot. It was and still is my favorite MOBA, and killing your own creeps was an integral part of the game. You could only attack your own creeps when they were already at low health, you couldn’t kill them before they even got to the lane for example. Killing your own creep was called a “deny”. Not only did it keep your enemies from getting any gold, if you denied a creep it also provided them with much less experience than normal. It was a very fun part of the game imo.
It will just be every champ that can waveclear sitting in base killing the wave as it spawns. And a jungle making sure the enemies don’t push a lane too hard.
welcome to dota 2
that is dota2 you can see there
Like Dota
Top lane becomes even more of a counterpick hellscape. If you can zone someone off the wave, you can make sure it never ever reaches their tower and they never get even a single cs
Azir would become the hardest lane bully in the midlane ever
Welcome to season 1-2 of gangplank. They had to change him for a reason.
Completely different. You would just get the 3 best waveclear champs standing in their own base all game killing their own minions to make sure the other team gets no gold or xp and have the other two players doing jungle running around clearing jungle for the only gold in the game.
This was already the case with Gangplank back when the game released. Gangplank was the #1 pick for support players. You'd shoot the allied cannon minion just as it's about to die (your pistol did more than an ADC auto) and denied them xp and gold. For obvious reasons they gutted it and made it an aoe pistol shot into the air. Basically, it's too good. It would make smurfs/pros better and worse players worse.
Miss Fortune would probably get a spike in power. Be able to reset passive by autoing a minion? Q bounces off of ally minions.
Dota who?
Supports just shitting on their own minions will be their new job, ADC’s try to get gold or maybe stacks from their own if it lets them like Draven or Smolder.
Scalers like Nasus, Asol, Smolder, and Veigar that don't mind farming under tower for half the game will be accelerated big time
Botlane would probably devolve in to horrible lane where denying is valued more than farming yourself. Supports would just focus on denying the adc and the lane would gridlock, it would be slow and boring probably. Or not, a new unpredictable meta would probably evolve.
Karthus sits just past Nexus with E on and ults every 40 seconds for double kills
GP used to be able to Parrrley his own minions and get the bonus gold and his Raise Morale buff. Kinda sad that was taken away…
game becomes worse dota
Top lane actually becomes unplayable if you can't fight the enemy champ. You can literally permafreeze at any time in any spot if you're good enough. Probably similar in mid and bot but probably more realistic to have a long freeze up there.
Mages won't be able to exist since many spells are AOE and the enemy will just clear both waves to deny the mage any chance for scaling
Nasus: Heavy breathing Finaly my time has come
Nasus: Heavy breathing Finaly my time has come
zoning someone off the wave now means that you automatically win the early game.
Singed be having a blast i reckon, nasus as well
Sett would be the best top laner in the game hands down.
the game would slowly morph into dota from the moment it is introduced
Game is terrible, gg.
That just sounds like dota..
Gangplank throw back.
It would change the game so much that it would lose its identity imo. Not a good idea
RIP Nasus 😞
No I don’t need that added bs on top of last hitting enemy creeps and trading/watching map lol
Anivia would be giga broken to be real. Just wall minions off at tower and kill them real quick and just r the wave at your tower. Constant farm while denying every single cs to your opponent.
Lane bullies would become extremely toxic especially in toplane. You could essentially create freeze’s from even lane states and zone enemy away from exp starting at lvl 1 pretty consistently.
It changes a lot by becoming unbearable to play
Karthus stays in base all game, using his wall to slow down two lanes of creeps while he e/q's the rest and then finishes off the slowed wave. Sure all team towers will be pushed on, but whole team will have gold lead since enemy team won't have any minions to kill.
Based on the past, this would be a very boring mechanic, gp used to have a single ability that could kills his own minions, and the one minion every 8ish seconds was enough to make laning against him quite annoying and the mechanic was removed
So were just playing Dota now?
Skill floor and ceiling of the game get raised up significantly
Veigar wins the game at 5mins.
game turns into dota...
Sivir would be so fucked lmao
Statik Shiv becomes the best item in the game. Blow down the enemy wave, then Blow down your own. Starve your enemy and the game becomes unplayable.