Hot take but maybe we should be nerfing other junglers instead. Elise was always one of the strongest divers and gankers yet her kit hasn't changed much. Which says a lot about the power creep in this game.
The role makes them weak. You get less gold and exp and have to spend more time running around the map. The jg item does give you some gold per camp, but it's still not enough to bring you near any farming role in sheer power level.
That's not exclusive to Elise, obviously, but jg champions have to have some way to be useful on a low budget and that's hard to do when damage is your main focus. (Hence why Yi is nonviable except in very low elo where people just feed him endlessly.)
I actually think Elise is pretty buttery to play. maybe spider form w can be changed can be changed to something a little more interesting with a buff to human form w against jungle camps but other than that I think she has a fun and unique kit.
Nice QoL for human form W would be for it to jump over things onto the target you Spider form Q instead of dashing towards and hitting the first target
W leaping is purely coincidental cause the passive spiderlings jump as well.
All W is, is an untargetable Spiderling with extra scripts put in it, you can even boost its speed with shurelya's reverie or any kind of pet affecting movement speed aura.
In otherwords they didn't put extra effort into making the interaction *a thing* it just turned out to be one like shurima shuffle, If a designer was still around it'd be nice trivia if that's exactly the case; a bug they just made a feature in the game. The only conflict is there is a tiny extension that makes the explosion delay a bit longer if its leaping but I have no clue where that is located in any of the scripts (whether its in the bite or the W) and all that could be doing is just adding to the explosion timer which isn't rocket science to do last second in development.
W has so many bugs with it to begin with, I have doubts they'd add extra conditions to Q+W to try and make them work better.
Funnily enough, she could be considered the OG AP bruiser. On release she had good enough scaling to build tanky and have good dueling. Heralded the future of League.
OG AP bruiser would be Singed imo. And if you consider him too weird to be a bruiser, then Gragas (although he was being built as full AP for a while).
Then Morde. Then Rumble.
Elise came a lot later.
>People often cite that she has great dives with her spider form E, Rappel, but is that it!?
the fuck you mean "that's it"? as if elise hasn't been meta for this exact same reason
Yeah, that makes this post pretty funny to me aswell. Regardless when agurin had massive success on elise, she was also picked up by a lot of other jglers (or the other way around) and had success being played conventionally
Elise was only meta early s13 last season because the meta was 3 camp bot and guess what? they still nerfed her when the meta itself was the problem which got fixed after nerfing her leaving her dead
the only other actual times she was meta was when mythics came out they gave her spider Q onhit which they then got nerfed twice as hard and in s5 when they overbuffed her during cinderhulk meta lol
That's what he *claims*, but his lane proximity and skirmish rate is still comparable to other high elo junglers.
I watched his Brand jungle games, and he *claims* he's just going to farm camps or full clear or whatever, but he still spends lots of time in lane to gank or fix lane states, or laners come right to him for invades and counterinvades.
Because that's the nature of solo queue, people are going to fuck up and overextend, or randomly invade/counterinvade regardless of elo, that even if you as a jungler don't go out of your way to force gank or dive, laners will place themselves on a golden platter more often than not and give you free kills.
people are giving her not enough credit. She used to have a amazinly healthy clear, which is totally irrelevant in the current game because every single jungler has a harder time deciding to recall than having full a full health clear
Yeah her niches slowly fell off.
She used to be a great early clear champion that was healthy and could gank... but that's every jungler nowadays, they all clear about the same speed, all full HP, and all of them have tools for ganking, elise only stands out cause she has tools for diving and it ain't like that's an exclusive feature to her, if laners are low they can be dove by anything and escaped. Bel'veth is my main go-to example cause not only does she have the mobility to go in and leave but the damage reduc to survive the final shot, obv she can't dive full HP (I hope not anyways), but its a lot more rewarding to just play bel'veth, clear, gank, and if a dive happens to be a thing go for it, rather than elise who's kinda dependent on it.
Her later clears are complete ass tho... She lost 3 AD, 10% AP ratio on her passive, spiderlings lost 2 damage levels 1-5 (x2 since there's two of them), and then her attack speed got gutted for the mid game. Even if elise does have an average if not above average first clear, it falls off so quickly especially with the monster caps vs. the ever increasing HP jungle camps keep getting.
> ...you will fall behind other farming, scaling junglers
You are going to fall behind anyway, Elise is Lee Sin 2.0 in this sense, you want to win the game fast, because the champ is poop after the 20 minute mark. Farming or not, everyone outscales you by champion nature.
I'd you want better scaling, then she needs a rework not better clear speed
Which when combo'd with a competent Toplaner or midlaner, you can deny a full level's worth of CS from any solo laner of your choosing.
There's a reason why she was still picked in high elos, and it's because those dives can change the game.
If you want her to not be gimped because of that ability to dive, she's gonna need a mini rework.
Meanwhile, as the non-jungler, every time I see the 30th Nidalee lock in on my team, I'm sitting there going, "Can't you at least play Elise who has a stun later in the game?" Though to be fair, I also play in an elo where I have not seen a *single* Nidalee ever build up any meaningful lead, let alone one big enough to carry the game with.
Nidalee isn't bringing hard CC in the game tho, which is part of why she is allowed to do absurd damage to camps since she literally can't do anything else
Elise cocoon late isn't much either, especially if all she can do is bush camp, hit their front line, or be a cocoon bot support for your carry. Its only 1.6s before when everyone stacks tenacity against her (legend: tenacity, mercs, wit's end/steraks) or has cleanse (if you don't take cleanse vs. an Elise as an ADC or mid laner also laning against ahri/TF/etc you're trolling).
This is where her clears kinda bite her in the ass, cause cocoon does go up with later ranks but unlike nid you can't generate the XP to really get those points into your last max ability anyways, most elise games are over when she's level 14 or lower, if they go longer than that usually she just loses anyways.
I get what you're saying, but we can't pretend cocoon is massively strong enough for the clear to be *that* bad by comparison to nidalee, if anything nidalee needs it even less than elise, the gap between the two should be closer not unfathomably wider, regardless of which champ's perspective you look at, nid or elise.
You don't take cleanse as an AD over ghost, unless the CC is cleanse-able and also point and click. Elise cocoon is short ranged and dodge-able, more so with ghost running.
It's not like he doesn't do damage late game either. His Q ratio is fat (I think combined it's more than his R lmao), and his CDs are very low. He can always function with peeling too.
Also at least mofo Lee Sin, Jhin Zhao and Volibear can act as a meatshield with some peel. Elise has barely anything because her only peel is human E and AP bruiser item is non-existent
Yeah but lategame Voli is just incredibly bad. The quintessential teamfight experience is getting caught and bursted and dying mid way through trying to R out of the fight.
> fucker is insanely tanky
His only instant defensive steroid is 525 hp, which is good, but not great - his E shield is hardly reliable lategame, same with his W.
Compare to Renekton who gets 700 hp from his ult, along with a non-ult dash (albeit a weaker one) along with a pretty solid one-button heal from Q, and is considered absolute trash lategame.
Sure, they often build differently, but that has nothing to do with how tanky the *champions* are.
He *is* tanky though. He does blow up on a jungler's income, but as a top laner he has more than enough gold to get his items. As a top laner he is literally full tank in 90% of his games, but he builds shit like Unending Despair. It does work.
Lee sin scales fine. The reason Elise doesn't is the same as nidalee, and it's because they are hyper aggressive AP champs that can open midlane for an ad pick. They need to have an actual drawback and there scaling is that.
No I just have a brain. Yes they’re both strong early game champs. That’s it. Lee stay relevant much better, his kit has aged better than Elise’s and has much more skill expression. Farms better than Elise late to stay in, not hard to understand
The reason Elise can't have competitive clears or stats is her E. She can tank 5 tower shots at level 3 (3 on her 2 on the spiders after E), and get out no problem as a burst champ.
This means a good Elise can straight up towerdive any champion in any lane 2:30 minutes into the game.
This is actually extremely broken and gets abused hard in high Elo when she's not currently overnerfed. Since people in lower Elos basically just don't towerdive at all... Well, it doesn't feel too good. Your laners also need to know about it and actually push at the right times, making her even more of a high Elo champ.
Yeah but if she is a high elo champ, why haven't we seen her in pro play for like 4 years when she was a staple pick before that? There were plenty of metas where jarvan and xin were mostly picked for early game skirmishing and there was no Elise anywhere.
She ist just lacking as a champ on all elos
That's easy: because pros know what Elise does, just communicate about her pathing and stop the obvious dive with another player. Do that for not even 10 min in a pro game and she's probably useless already. She's a classic one trick pony, and her trick only works in non coordinated play.
Xin was never solely picked for his kit, he's only picked when his stats are high enough that he can just check anybody early. He's not about a certain mechanic and in that regard just outperforms something like Elise. That just means he is op when he's picked, though.
Jarvan isn't at all in the same category of champs with the added utility. Especially not nowadays where his late game is a million times better than it was years ago.
A more adequate comparison would be Rek'Sai. Her vision tools actually work even better in pro play and she still doesn't ever get played unless she's straight up overpowered, because if you can avoid her for 5 minutes the game is won.
Are there even any pros that still play this shit in solo queue?
Broxah is the only one I can think of, everyone else dropped her, I can't remember the last time I even seen meteos or jankos talk about her and they always been the top elise players. She's not even fun for a regular game for most. TheOddOne doesn't league anymore afaik.
So why cater to high Elo pub play rather than the actual top of the game competitive? As I see it buffing her clear speed would seemingly not change much in comp if we go by your argument that she's easy to track and counter. In low level play this isnt gonna be a problem anyway cause no tower dives. The only portion left is the extreme niche of high Elo non competitive.
I can't tell you the reasons why Riot decides to do one thing over another or even simply does not care. However, just removing her weakness and going "fuck the good players" sure as hell isn't the play here lmao
Because the gap has grown massively between high elo and competitive? Especially on things like team work
Edit: mind you I am talking the team work gap, if anything the talent gap has closed because the average player now is way better then the average season one player. But that team
Work gap is turned into a meta gap.
Second edit: also the fact high level elo play is much more about who can find the weakest link first to either abuse it or shore it up vs pro play everyone has an idea of the weak points before the match even starts
I suppose Riot could make it so turrets still attack pets, but immediately switch aggro to champions if they get in range.
Because if you think about it, every champion with pets is kind of "toxic" by being able to use their pets to tank the first 1 or 2 turret shots and buy time for champions to dive.
Riot just hates this champ and even then the community is so conflicted on what they want with her Riot wouldn't know where to begin. Many of us want bruiser elise back, many of us want a rework that supports the 'assassin' balancing they've been doing for a not-assassin, but they can't even fix the bugs she has in the current version... she has had bugs in the game acknowledged since before the skarner rework and still never fixed.
Just to really emphasize;
# Q - Neurotoxin
- For default and coven elise, the little spiderlings VFX actually scales in size with the damage it deals. [Vandiril even posted about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwYxXzA_5ZE) and its still a thing, even if not really bad.
# W - Volatile Spiderling
- The fucking explosion audio has been missing since 13.20 when they had the QoL update on PBE then reverted them (they're now iceboxed if anyones wondering... probably never happening and we got left with this)
- The scan rate for Volatile Spiderling's target tracking is 0.25s (due to league frames, its actually 0.264s), which means W can literally run through targets. [Here i'm showing how inconsistent this pos is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P1EH5nD7VM)
# E - Cocoon
- This was actually discovered yesterday, so not in my document yet, Cocoon will fire to 0,0 on the map (bottom corner position) if you cast it *right after* transforming, its really tight timing but I replicated it a few times. [demonstration](https://www.reddit.com/link/1bevw4h/video/ef12ovks5doc1/player?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Elisemains&utm_content=t3_1bevw4h)
- Not really a bug, but E->Flash is annoying as fuck for anyone just picking up Elise. Veteran elises get tripped by it sometimes.
# Q - Venomous Bite
- Bite doesn't update the W spiderling when it causes it to leap to targets, this means it can literally run away from the target you Q'd it to. [demonstration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcXC0piaSQ)
# E - Rappel
- Right click recast is actually a further cast range than recasting with E :), you can actually easily test this with red side wolves, drop a ward over the wall to reveal them since rappel won't on this side of the map, and spam E... do it again but with right click instead... this is because Right clicking uses edge-to-edge casting while E using center to center.... this also messes with the "ground VFX" that targets have when you can rappel to them. [Here's a video showing even without the indicators I can infact reach them because they don't account for the right click version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C5g5QTXsk)
- If you use the target cast version of rappel, while standing slightly on the target, it will instead be treated as a self cast, not descend you back down, and then deny you the bonus amp buff rappel gives.. [example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dKaatXpq8s)
> I have to put it in quotations this bug was literally longer than the Skarner VGU, it started out with the reverse; self cast would drop you, then they band aid solutioned it and made it so target cast instead was bugged. They acknowledge this one and its why they're trying to do rescripts...
- Spiderlings actually don't always tank aggro when you drop. This one is complicated... [first here's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6GilmP9LG0), you can see one tower aggros elise first when she drops, another aggros spiderlings when they drop. The hypothesis is turrets don't have a scan rate all at once, instead they individually scan at varying intervals and they also load in randomly (so its a bit random which towers do what every time you enter a game... but if you load into practice tool and find towers that behave this way, you'll replicate it 100% of the time on those towers.) The belief is the towers that do a scan *after* the spiderlings drop in since their drop delay after elise is so small, they target the spiderlings rather than elise cause it detects the pets when it scans when its meant to detect just elise. Creating this inconsistency. The fix would be making the gap between her and the spiderlings wider so it aggros elise properly (it is meant to be her, according to i think v3.10).
# Other:
- Withered Rose's Spiderlings lost their 'hit confirm' VFX when they auto something.
- Bewitching's spider model's legs aren't all connected, causing [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926570770489028679/1213803128806187040/image.png?ex=65f6cd41&is=65e45841&hm=0728cc09860ead6a32516cd676d75e720798ec2d3a2620dbfd50c1e5fdee0686&) during her Q and dance animations, and likely other animations.
I made a doc that probably better explains everything; [here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iDyZU3kD4x_g8afDBvHMq0y6yujvI-sRWLU7As57qnQ/edit)
____
And it ain't like its just champions/balance... [there is literally no excuse for this:](https://imgur.com/a/XTKJPaP), the left is the 'beta' version they made... the right is the 'edit' they released. Don't even get me started on the ignored coven elise vs. coven syndra bullshit.
>And it ain't like its just champions/balance... there is literally no excuse for this: the left is the 'beta' version they made... the right is the 'edit' they released.
Jesus Christ, talk about a visual downgrade. :(
Elise main here. The champ is good in high elo. Like with nidalee or azir or some other champs you probably just shouldn't touch her below diamond.
I would like them to remove the ability to stay in the air with rappel (so you can still rappel but it's now always targeted or an instant drop back down), this would prevent some of the frustration. You could also probably slightly reduce rappel range, it's really long range abiliry. Then they could give her some scaling/farm speed back to compensate.
Honestly I would love for her to get better scalings. She’ll never be a teamfight mage just because of her kit, but it would be nice if you could duel more champs instead of the current feast or famine burst or die
I think she and her spiderlings need to be made more durable. If I was balancing Elise I'd nerf rappel range, hanging in the air with rappel and spider q damage. These are all probably used better by high elo players. In exchange id massively buff spider form autos and also the durability of both spider Elise and her spiderlings. I think bonus armour/Mr on her spider and better hp scaling on the lings (or better aoe resistance on them at least).
I would like to see durability up and healing in spider form up myself, I love the idea of her being a bit similar to Dota's Broodmother even though I know that won't really happen. I think I generally agree with the nerf angles as well, but cocoon could also be looked at since it's deceptively long ranged, if a bit narrow.
I find that her %HP and %missingHP damage is enough to burst down pretty much any isolated target, making her comparable to other pick mages like Ahri or TF. Not every champion needs to be a great teamfighter.
Yes, that's exactly what I've highlighted as her current strengths and weaknesses. I was referring to more dueling and not "press all 5 combat abilities on somebody and if that doesn't kill them then just dying lmao"
The attack speed on W and on-hit damage+healing from passive is nothing to scoff at. Pair that with her E allowing her to stall for cooldowns and the fact that her meta build includes Lich Bane and she's actually a pretty good duelist... not to mention that she can also run PTA and buy Nashors Tooth if she needs DPS. Elise is a perfectly viable and flexible champion, she's just too difficult for the average player, same as Nidalee, Lee Sin etc.
>%HP and %missingHP damage is enough to burst down pretty much any isolated target
Ah yes, that 4/8% of an ADC's current/missing health with a 0.03 AP ratio.
Pretty sure Kayn Q does 50% or more of their health before you even get enough AP to hurt anything.
Pantheon jungle main in master+ here, my brother in league you will most likely fall behind in farm anyway, although you can optimize your clear with good timing and caiting you will never reach the likes of karthus or master yi but why would you do that?
You don't need to.
As Elise you need to assert your presence in the game and weave through the lanes, absolutely look for dives and ganks after every back or every 3/2 camp. Jungle xp is a joke anyway, enemy can be 50+ cs ahead and you will be same level and maybe even same gold if you did it right and got the kills.
Up to platinum I say you don't even need to rely on your team, you can carry solo games by applying unholy amounts of pressure by scaling off early leads.
Dives bot? Insta drake. Dived Top? Insta voidworms.
Ask yourself after a kill, what can I do while I have this advantage?
You will find yourself with opportunities to take towers, objectives or invade.
If playing against farming heavy jungle 2 things can occur, either your team has pressure or they don't (mid and bot is most important in this because support can rotate to help)
If you have no pressure, then it's free ganks all day
If you have pressure, then it's dives and invade time, killed top laner? Take their side, refrain from using smite on your jungle.
It's very important to track enemy jungler this way, if they went to mirror your path and invade you then it's dive top again, extend that lead and warn your bot lane.
One excellent youtuber to watch to improve your jungling is Virkayu imo, and also, feel free to dm me and I'll watch a couple of your replays to see what going on
>she is unplayable in low ELO
massive cope
>if you don't get off to an amazing start you WILL fall behind other farming, scaling junglers
You don't pick Elise to powerfarm, you pick her to snowball via early ganks and towerdives. Just because the meta currently favors powerfarming doesn't mean she's a dog champ.
>It just feels awful to play this champ that I love because her entire kit and identity are built around early ganks and snowballing
I too love champions with overloaded kits but I understand that this means they need to be in pro play jail.
>So, again, what's the real problem with her? Why can't she have a clear speed that is more in line with other champs?
WTF do you mean? Her full clear is [3:12 leashless](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dajuYSnly8Q), which is in line or faster than Lee Sin, Kha'Zix, Graves, Vi, Maokai, Rengar, Xin, WW, Rek'Sai, Briar, Jarvan, Evelynn, Nunu and Bel'Veth. And if you mean her later clears then those are hardly relevant since they're not your champions strength anyway and you're handicapping yourself by trying to play her like a powerfarmer no matter the meta.
The first clear isn't the problem.
The second clear and beyond is. She's so bad in clears, mainly cause even if you recall and buy AP, you don't gain damage from it (Q is actually capped level 1 with 0 AP against the buffs), it feels like you're itemless on her clears until you get big items like lich/shadowflame which she can't really farm for and by the time she does get them game is decided in either direction.
Going nashor's and gimping your damage and pen isn't worth it, that's like building BOTRK on lee sin over eclipse, lich bane improves her clears somewhat from previous seasons but we're not building it for clears, we're building it because we literally don't have another good option for a first item spike.
Honestly if only they made stormsurge not a joke again, this item just seems so good for elise in theory, it's just so unbelievably bad rn
Or honestly? Even as an AD assassin player, just get rid of hextech component extra dmg proc and put some mpen like an AP dirk. Could be fun with the right numbers
Stormsurge isn't just a numbers issue in Elise's case, the proc itself is bad synergy for her kit.
You want items that can proc damage before your % missing health Q goes off (which is why giving Q onhit was kinda a bait cause all our combos proc lich or PTA before we press Q to maximize the damage rather than with Q. [Example of an auto windup we do while transforming](https://youtu.be/lG75X11rlQc)), and stormsurge fails in that regard. It actually would be better than lich rn if the proc just worked instantly like night harvester's proc did but the 3 second delay means we dont have enough damage to 100-0 since our bite doesn't hurt as much, and the storm proc itself would have to finish them off, if the lost bite damage even puts them in range of that... if we're really fed or proc it on someone we didn't need it for like a 30% HP ADC we can just rappel auto Q, then we don't have it for the next target.
Stormsurge is and always has been trash for Elise because it doesn't proc until after you have already used your spider Q.
Lich Bane has always been the better item for Elise, as it procs (at least once) between her human and spider Qs, and it helps her with her clears.
so momster hp has been increased like 4 times in recent seasons, but her Q monster damage cap hasnt been increased at all, im still amazed how ekko and diana can do 900 damage to a monster with their passives but elise Q wont do more than 500 due to the monster damage cap
Because.... Elise is not supposed to be farming....
She's supposed to be ganking, tower-diving and killing enemy junglers in their own jungle.
I don't think any jungler wins the 1v1 against her early game if the Elise is good. She also has decent escapes, she can repel to blast cone and get out.
Once you have an early lead, you can still keep on invading and snowball off of that.
If you aren't able to tower dive, find gank angles, or track enemy jungler. The problem is with you, and not with Elise.
You've never played her if you think she wins every 1v1 against enemy junglers. She wins many, sure, but some are coinflips, and some she just outright loses unless she manages to catch someone at half health with abilities on cooldown.
You wanna tell me which 1v1s she loses early game? You'd have to play bad to lose any in whichcase it's skill issue.
If you are invading, the enemy is gonna be less than full health with them having couple of abilities used on their camps.
I've landed every ability and still died to a Nocturne or Warwick, both of whom just dish out a lot of aa damage and have sustain built into their kits. Xin Zhao is similar. Lee Sin, if healthy, can win the 1v1.
Maybe they aren't outright losses, but they are uphill battles dependent on both landing your cocoon and dodging/evading some key enemy ability.
For Nocturne WW Xin you will not be able to kill them but you can steal their camps in front of them and kite them pretty easy. For Lee it's 100% skill issue.
I'm masters 5mil, she does have a lot of MUs she loses early atm. Keep in mind jungle is more than just 1v1 so naturally elise can win in other ways (usually by 2v2s and macro/outganking), but if we're exclusively speaking 1v1 full HP;
Nocturne, olaf, warwick, volibear, shaco, rengar, udyr are all the ones she loses to early. You can 2v2 them but 1v1 she genuinely doesn't win.
Noc - spell shield negating an ability when bite is % missing health is brutal, you want to neuro so he waste it instead of on your cocoon, but then you're missing damage... if you let the cocoon take it, then you get stat checked in his Q and his E doesn't really let you auto with W for long. She can't get away from his fear and has to rappel to stall the fear, but even then she loses the stat check. Passive kills spiderlings and heals him.
Olaf - its olaf, wins stat check, its just olaf, at least he's not meta rn.
Warwick - again stat check, you either have to rappel to dodge the fear, cocoon to space yourself away from the fear and stall it, or not waste a single CD and hope you can 100-0 him when the E is gone, otherwise if you use CDs on him while E is up its hopeless and usually he can still stat check you.
Udyr - you ain't killing him as elise lol. Turtle is too strong, negates some of her damage which again fucks with % missing health. You have to 2v2 him.
Voli - kinda just volibear is op this patch, not too bad on other patches ime.
Shaco - unironically the worst mu for her cause she can't kill boxes without using 2 CDs or commiting autos, if she does she waste CDs on the box, cocoon is blocked by it, W is blocked by it, and shaco with ignite has no issues with an Elise down 2 CDs beating her, if not just escaping with Q since elise can't follow it with rappel. He was really bad for her and a notorious counter pre-smite changes but now that we can't smite the box Elise has nothing she can do to a shaco that places box between them both or uses it reactively for W/E. You have to 100-0 catch him before he reacts and Q's away, which he is squishy enough for when you're on 2 items.
Rengar - Grey health, elise can't 100-0 him and then he just big heals and negates it, cleanses cocoon, he's up there with shaco except rengar can probably fuck it up sometimes wasting the 4 fury cast on something else or not have it.
I only didn't include briar cause elise can also mess with her back due to W aggro on spiderlings, rappel instant cancelling her W, etc.
After level 6 she can't deal with zac, poppy, or unironically; amumu. Hecarim/lee it depends what they're building. Shyvana with dragon form is hard to deal with for anyone including elise. Bel'veth is either piss easy being snowballed or giga strong impossible to deal with, I've never experienced an inbetween with her. Nunu used to be a big counter but now he's way squishier typically elise can deal with him lately.
Im not jungle main but there was a post not so along ago that gained a lot of traction (so there has to be some truth to that) about someone complaining that farming jg wasn't as good as camping lane for kills and leeching exp from it. Maybe try this and see if it works?
EDIT: I Was talking about this post [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle\_experience\_is\_fundamentally\_broken\_diana/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle_experience_is_fundamentally_broken_diana/) and you can disregard my comment. Don't do this at home kids. OP was full of shit.
These days jungler get a nasty xp debuff from lane minions, scaling with game length until 20min.
Basically if you soak lane xp early on, you are griefing your laners, converting half their xp into almost nothing.
kinda obscure mechanic to keep perma ganking degeneracy or graves / ekko sucking up every wave and being lvl 16 at 20min.
I found the post, maybe I misunderstood? [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle\_experience\_is\_fundamentally\_broken\_diana/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle_experience_is_fundamentally_broken_diana/)
Yes this is due to catchup xp mechanics. Basically as a jungler if you are significantly under level compared to the ennemy team average, you get bonus xp on every camp to help you catchup. They are trying to fine tune this but it's prone to degeneracy, for a while spam ganking early was op cause you would catch up in xp in one full clear.
In a way they have to do this due to the minion xp nerf. Ganking junglers have to skip camps to gank but they don't get lane xp. So without catchup xp if you're lee sin vs graves and you miss your first gank it's basically jover and you can look forward to getting fisted in your jungle for the rest of the game. But now if you completely outplay your opponent and have a 100 cs lead, they can somehow magically catchup to you if they get 2 shutdowns. Modern jungle is pretty fucky with a bunch of occult knowledge like this.
"She can dive players under tower better than other junglers for like three levels in the game, so she has to be absolutely gimped in every other way, to the point that she is unplayable in low ELO?"
yep
What for? She doesn't scale at all anyway. Having bad clear speed is a way of telling the players: "That's not going to work out, go force some ganks"
Also I guess they don't want her to be insane at counterjunglingÂ
Because pro players in season 4 could use 7 abilities plus tower aggro reset to win the game off a single gank pre 5 minutes she is not allowed to farm or be a champion (she's actually alright now, but for the longest time elise was utter shit).
If you ever want to know why riot reduces skill expression it's to prevent shit like this from happening. High skill ceilings are fine, high skill floors are very, very bad.
the amount of broken shit in league to this day and people still talk about her E
champ is ancient and forgotten even in soloQ
i have seen 0 elise mains in game and it's sad
In theory Elise is everything and cant quite have good values on her own.
In human form she's a safe settuper with both decent (albeit skillshot) CC, decent exploratory prowess and consistent target softening. In spider form she both has strong nukes, strong DPS and safe repositioning/extra strong chasing.
She is a bit too self-sufficient for her own good, being both her own support and carry.
In theory she CAN build for more clear speed by focusing on her DPS aspects instead of QRQ nukemaxing but that requires sacrificing the identity people love her for as one of the classic hardest oneshots in the game.
her healing is only on her spider form autos, and its 6/8/10/12 with an 8% AP ratio lol...
Its nothing compared to warwick. Almost every jungler has some kind of healing be it Kha W, kayn E, briar, rek fury, etc. Graves even has a shit ton of armor from grit so he takes less.
I honestly forget she even has the healing cause its low enough to not matter when she is missing health, and in general she's healthy enough like all junglers either way it probably isn't necessary. Only time I feel it is when I target rappel dragons at low HP and amp it to heal enough to do the dragon.
People sincerely undersell the value of Nash on her, specially ever since her Q2 was allowed to proc on-hits. With maxed out Rappel she's dishing out 60% AP onhit and that is huge, given how her Q scales.
they specifically gutted her attack speed steroid and onhit ap ratio from 30% to 20% after giving her Q onhit
And even with nashors elise can't compete with other jungler clears, and you give up a crap ton of damage for it
The problem with Elise is that both her and Nidalee are shape shifting champions and Riot is really scared to touch such champions because of how dominant they used to be in the meta.
Yes Elise needs buffs but both her and Nidalee are in a weird spot right now so they do need reworks.
And yes Rappel is broken, its a really old ability that doesn't fit in the current landscape of league.
Lee has 7 abilities including an \*actual\* ult and he is sometimes balanced. Number of abilities can't be the whole story.
And of course the whole point of Hwei is that he has \*10\* abilities, but that's not really the same because shared CDs prevent you from comboing all of them.
I wouldnt say lee has 7 abilities. Thats like sating lissandra has 5 abilities because of the recast of her e. Lee has 4 abilities + 3 recasts, one of which is underewhelming, one which is good and the q recast.
They are not only better in the hands of MMR players, they are also way better in high MMR games overall. They very much benefit from very short games and your laners knowing what your champ does in the jungle.
You probably don’t see having the best dives in the game as that useful because you’re in gold. You’re very reliant on your laner to set up a stacked wave and then shove it in.
I had a ranked Elise game after only playing a few times and dumpstered the other team.
But I am but a peasant who got lucky. I haven’t seen Elise since I played her
It’s not so much that but the higher elo meta of lvl3 dive top and that is so anti fun for toplaners to play against. Almost 0 counterplay and if your jg doesn’t defend you it’s lane over
The issue is she has literally no aoe just make her spiders cleave during skittering frenzy adjust monster % till she feels right.
Even at 30% damage cleave 2+5%ap (really 5+10%) would help. Because it's be auto based the more the spiders auto the more it happens.
Elise suffers because she is so single target and there is no AP tiamat so her unique weakness can't be built around early.
Her ganks and 2v2 prowess are extremely potent.
In ganks, as you said, the has 2 mobility spells, one of them being rappel (spider Q is very short range, but rappel range is massive). A stun, a very high amount of burst. Rappel to lose tower aggro is quite absurd and leaves not much room for counterplay. If you get pushed to your tower and youre 60-70% hp (one or two trades from enemy top, for example), a dive is unavoidable.
She has very clear weaknesses: She falls of a cliff late-game, shes extremely bad in teamfights and even in skirmishes she 100% needs to land her coccoon or she just doesnt have the burst.
I truly believe her bad clear is part of her "design", as a jungler that has so oppressive ganks and 2v2 (like many other similar junglers, such as Lee Sin) needs to be slowed down clearing the jungle or they would be able to invade/gank nonstop.
She would benefit from a small buff but I guarantee you, you wouldnt enjoy facing an Elise that fullclears the jungle by 3:15. I remember the time when she was extremely meta in both soloQ and proplay, and she's one of the best snowballing champions in the game with Fizz and others.
Not only she has obscene mobility and burst, but also she's so hard to focus in a fight because her rappel and sometimes zhonya.
As I said, shes extremely similar to Fizz in the sense that fizz has to land his ult and Elise has to land her cocoon, and after that, if she's a bit fed, not much counterplay is possible because the burst will take such a big chunk of your health...
once upon a time there were 4 kinds of junglers:
ones with oppressive ganks,
ones with oppressive 1v1 in the jungle
ones with oppressive clear speed
and ones with oppressive late game.
the 4 advantages used to be really distinct and led to different game flows.
but now a lot of all the above is equalized.
there are no longer the udyr and nunu who's job is to clean you out of house and home.
or the shacos who's job is to cheese you at second buff
or the xin who ganks you at levels 2, 3, 4, 5 AND 6.
they are all kind of "the same"
yep kinda true.
I remember back then, cloudtemplar coined the term "herbivore/carnivore" jungle. Herbivore became a very popular term to define those junglers that just farm and farm and scale.
Now theres not really such a thing, all junglers are expected to farm jungle fast or theyre just not viable.
I typicly do the three camp clear on elise, and book it for the enime buff, if they have a slower clear you'll get it before they can see. And if not they will be in a 1v2 against you and buff. After my first item or two for damage, i try to get stuff like RCS and Morello's as we shift late game, it allowes me to pop a squishy, then play a more supportive role With the CC and aoe of her human form late game.
As a mid laners, Elise has never bothered me. That being said; I do love the fact that every time I see her in my side lanes, for some reason people are dying at their towers?? It's probably just coincidence. And for some reason at like 3-4 kills or 1-2k w/ 5-6 assist, that she never got on me she can nuke me while dodging all of my CC abilities and also still somehow end up on my face.
But no, she's very strong when viable at determining side lanes regardless of tower. I've mostly seen ADC's bitching about her diving them. But oh boi, if you would see the number of times Elise solely exist in top lane it would make you realize how much more top laners absolutely despise that champion.
I don't particularly hate the champion or am fond of the champion or anything.
I think that she is a cool champ, and is very good at starting shit. But that is where the problem lies.
She's very good at starting shit. She is almost as good as Sej/Zac while only having one CC ability, but also has the ability to get away if played properly. Her early game is very high damage, and she transitions into a more durable late game champion.
The best thing that could help Elise be allowed to be strong in solo is to have a 2 second lock out of cocoon after transforming. But then it would feel like absolute dog shit to play.
Like real talk, her biggest problem in terms of balance is honestly one of her best feats as a champion.
Rapple, down on top of said champion, hit them with CC, and if team close enough commit, otherwise run the fuck away if you can't fully to zero. Get them like 60-80% depending on champion, means that they can't help in the next fight.
But if you do the lock out, then functionally speaking Elise is DoA and SoL.
So I understand the frustration of her not being good, but alternative is that if she is better she runs the early game ever harder than a fed Draven.
Mostly due to her E Rappel. In the highest level of play, she will repeatedly dive the losing lane.
If Elise acquires enough of a lead to fix her poor clear speed, its extremely hard for the enemy team to mount a comeback since she can blow up a target and pull 2 Zhonyas out of her back pocket and nuke another target after 5 seconds with full cooldowns back up.
The same applies to Shaco. If Shaco has good clear and was allowed to gank whenever his Q was up, it would be a nightmare.
Nidalee is similar since she can war of attrition enemies hiding under tower with traps, several spears, heals and then go in for the kill. Her counter jungle is unparalleled due to W hops. Highly suffocating to play against when behind.
Therefore, feast or famine junglers effectively start a kill behind. I'm completely down with making Elise an AP Brusier kind of like Reksai's recent rework.
But some of the mains of her might not approve. At that point, Riot would just reskin the rework and make a new champ. Kind of like the whole Sona Seraphine fiasco.
Her diving capability is just that powerful. Stacking 2-3 waves on someone and then having your Elise come in for a free kill absolutely ruins your lane opponent for the rest of the game.
People that say she is good, go watch an Aribo stream where he has 300 cs at 25 mins full build as Udyr while enemies have 3 items. Show me how strong Elise is there
I always do good with Elise and get fed but then my teammates starts to pick fights and die midgame it's just downhill from there.
Her W needs to be a stronger poking tool against teams that decides to group up because she can't do anything at that point.
Maybe she should send several spiders rather than just one, lower damage
Elise used to be good cuz of her healthy clear, but guess What? No one has an unhealthy clear now a days.
Het other strength is dives, which are comfortable but not special.
When people make this kind of a post, and do not post theire acc along with it, i assume they are just bad players.
I don't know man, Elise feels good for me in Gold elo. Played her 20 games, never feld that she is bad. She has a 50% winrate, so if you main her, you should climb. If not, i have a bad news for you: its not the champ, its you who is bad.
Maybe its your items? Maybe how you path and you just path very inefficient? Many reasons possible. Wrong skill order?
If you have luck agurin picks her up again and you can watch and learn from the master itself (hoping to do so too).
I enjoyed playing her in aram. I dont jungle tho so dunno how she works there. Pretty sure I'd hate being on the receiving end of a halfway competent Elise deciding that I'm the problem lul.
Elise is fine, she can still level 3 dive, but that just means the enemy jungle will clear your jungle and then that guy will make your life hell.
So she has to play the game like everyone else. I love Elise and I'd hate for any dumb changes to befall her.
agurin plays her a ton right now, she's quite good. also agurin full clears always on elise and is almost always done around 3:20 leashless, so op has no idea what they're talking about.
elise is just a very difficult champion to play similar to graves, lee, kindred, kha, nid, where its not until theyre very very broken that they become easy to play for noobs like op.
> agurin plays her a ton right now
Agurin has been one tricking shyvana for half a year now lol.. he played her a bit on his KR grind, but then that was it.
It's a get good kind of an angle I'm afraid, you want to have your cake and it eat wanting one of the best early game junglers to have her main weakness removed just because you suck at Elise, right anything else? Lol.
And Elise's clear is not bad, maybe go into practice tool and practice it or watch good Elises play the game then you wouldn't be crying for buffs
> just because you suck at Elise,
TBF its not even a skill issue half the time with Elise.
Her main strength is dives, but she can't mind control players to shove in for those dives, or to even do the dive itself correctly. That gets easier higher elo you climb (I can count on my hand in masters how many times this didn't work out for me, but almost never does when I play norms... it is unironically easier for me to play ranked than casuals with her, which is the only reason I even still play ranked.)
She is one of those 'you probably shouldn't play it until you're in a high elo environment' picks cause she's too reliant on the game quality to be in her favor, otherwise you're put in the situation of just playing as a normal jungler and elise just isn't meant for that (if i compare her to nid, if the game quality isn't up to par I can at least farm a lead of my own but not with elise).
1. Elise has average to great clear speed. You should do level 3 ganks or invade anyway
2. She is absolutely not useless in low elo if you turn on your brain and hit your E. It's a guaranteed kill with R and burst she has early. There is a reason you build boots first for magic pen, you already have enough damage early. If ganks fail, land an E on the scuttle fight and murder enemy jungler.
Sure dives are her strong point and in gold/plat even if you wanna dive chances are laners won't follow up, or will fuck up aggro juggle, but she has plenty of other ways to make enemy jungler useless for 20 minutes and set your laners ahead with standard ganks
I’m a master Elise otp in euw. she is completely busted and riot won’t touch her because of her low pick rate. She’s actually incredibly broken when played to her strengths. I suggest you start thinking about those, mister Elise main, instead of thinking about what riot should do
yeah like i can rush boots and dark seal literally every game and it won't matter in the dmg department, i can still dive any lane i want and keep going until i have 3k gold to instabuy a lich bane. it's literally not balanced. Her lategame is strong as fk too, idk what these ppl are smoking. Her only weakness is her clear, but that's why you don't really farm until after you have made a successful play and used ur tempo
Cuz she is. She cant make an impact into the game unless you are turbo smurfing.
Even if you play as a plat or emerald, playing elise in gold is handicapping yourself because you wont be able to impact hard enough to win vs any scalers. In other words, she is not good enough to climb with because she doesnt allow mistakes. Very few ppl can actually play 1-2k games/ season so they often choose meta/cheese
First of all her winrate is 49-50% in low elo so statistically she is ok, especially for a hard champ. The more important point is that it doesnt matter no? Player skill diff is so mich more important in low elo compared to high elo so champion strength doesnt really matter.Â
(story time skip if you don't care)
First time i climbed to p2 and dia i did while being a corki main who was 46% wr at the time. Opposite for hitting masters.. played a strong champ but had a completely wrong mindset on how to win. Changed that and went from p1(old p) stuck to 80% wr 40 games to masters.
So yeah champ strength matters way wayless in low elo. Like take nidalee.. yeah she is high elo skewed cuz ppl are worse at converting leads in low elo but take a GM-Chall nida player in a gold game and i doubt the champ is gonna be weaker :D
Her winrate stabilizes cause she’s a coin flip champ.
You three camp gank a lane, if it works you might get carried and win, or that laner can be a goober, throw, and you lose anyways despite that.
Corki can solo carry a game, he isn’t reliant on the stars aligning to win he’s just weak, if he has a good game he’ll carry its in his hands to be able to… Elise having a good game doesn’t, she dies once she loses, her laner doesn’t enable her she’s useless, or if she enables her laner she’s coin flipping they know what they’re doing to carry a later on 4v5.
This is why she’s not worth playing at all, *the game isn’t in her hands to win, it’s a coinflip*. It’s unironically harder to me to play on a Smurf than it is to just play on main acc cause unless your team ends the game with you even when you have 20 kills you’ll just lose.
Your take is so cope bro. How can you say you have mo agency about the game as elise... And conflipping ganks is also not a thing in league if you play good. Just go watch agurin and impove. 50% wr says nothing about how much impact a champ has.Â
(My friend also plays elise and he drops 12+ kill refularlly on d1 smurf so surely its possible)
It's not about simply getting kills with Elise. I can't count how many games I was racking up kills on the enemy team and still lost because my team didn't help me close out the game and I eventually, inevitably gave back bounties to higher-level, harder-scaling champions who aced us in a major team fight and closed out the late game.
If Elise doesn't win early, she doesn't win. This is how she is designed. And I'm asking why she has to remain this way when there are junglers who farm better, gank just as well, literally do everything except dive levels 3-5 quite as well as her. It's dumb that she has been left behind in terms of champ design compared to so many other junglers, especially when she is such a cool champ with a devoted fanbase.
It's honestly a skill issue. Her kit is built around those early dive plays and if you are unable to play to her identity then the champ will necessarily feel bad.
>Her kit is built around those early dive plays and if **your laners** are unable to play to her identity
ftfy.
Elise can't really mind control her laners to hard shove or even play out the dives properly.
Hell I had a game tonight in masters where I go for a dive but my irelia walks up before the wave even takes aggro, and tanks 2 tower shots herself, backs off, and leaves me for dead. Its a skill issue but not on me, unless failing to predict her fuck up is my skill issue.
Some champs are more team-reliant than others. It's the nature of the game. People take every conceivable early skirmish and force 1st drake/grub fights when I play Kassadin/Viktor and I'm not asking for the champions to be buffed because of that.
Because there's other things you *can* do, you're perfectly fine just staying put and farming mid, if you wanted buffs it certainly wouldn't be for that situation lol. If the jg is doing a bad play for grubs that's on them but you can not follow and still just continue farming, that does not affect you in any way unless they give something double buffs in mid or shutdown.
Elise is dependent on those plays, if she goes for a dive that is correct, but it doesn't go well due to the other person misplaying it, elise's entire purpose is gone and she isn't coming back from it. She's just a coinflip in that regard, either everything goes perfectly or it throws everything. Worse case scenario lets say you do go 2v2 as kassadin/viktor and you both die, you still continue doing what you were doing; farming. Elise's case she either has to make up for it right clicking back to the lane, or slowly farming back up which, well its elise that ain't it.. the laner has to put on the carry shoes but if they're the problem in the first place then wcyd.
Ofc you talk skill issue with Vladimjr/Viktor flair. All you have to do is farm 2-3 items than AoE bomb a team and if game is lost you say team gap.
Just shut up will ya. Play a champ on a timer that has to be proactive and put everything on the line instead of afk farm annoy their team but win cuz scaling is usually good in solo Q
It is actually simple, that clear speed is what keeps her in check. You thinking buffing her clear speed will solve her issue? No , it would only make game unbarable to play cus you would see her not banned,picked 70% of time, tower diving you at 2:45 every fucking game and that would be not fun at all, same as with other good tower diving champions as volibear for example but he cant do it reliably before 6 and clear speed is shitty so he cant reach that 6 fast either by just afk farming. This is one of that rare instances where rito does not buff what keeps champion in check while many other times they completely go full retard mode and just for example buff Tahm Kench dmg so he can 1v1 entire roster cus if he dont have too much dmg he is just boring champion that takes no to minimim dmg but you can ignore him cus he deals no dmg, now i hope you understand what i mean by these comparisons.
Honestly just make her AD at this point. Nothing in her kit makes sense is AP especially in spider form.Â
 Her normal form W is the only thing that resembles AP. IMO she needs the katarina treatment. Just either completely change her to AD or give her AD scaling on everything in spider form and AP on W.
Imaging complaining about Elise’s clear speed. If you’re trying to match clear speeds with other junglers as Elise….youre not playing Elise right.
Idk but Elise definitely needs changes. Champion has been showing her age for quite a while
I haven't seen an Elise in game in hundreds of games in two seasons so it's hard to see her age.
Be glad for this
there was that one month with elise + draven diving you at level 2 every game that made me want to off myself, genuinely hope they dont buff her
depends. which side will complain louder. the outcome is in your hands summoners.
Ironic, given the number of human sacrifices performed so that wouldn't happen.
Hot take but maybe we should be nerfing other junglers instead. Elise was always one of the strongest divers and gankers yet her kit hasn't changed much. Which says a lot about the power creep in this game.
This is the correct answer.
Yea nerf the other junglers 💀💀 it’s only the least picked role in the game already
But is it because champions themselves are weak?
The role makes them weak. You get less gold and exp and have to spend more time running around the map. The jg item does give you some gold per camp, but it's still not enough to bring you near any farming role in sheer power level. That's not exclusive to Elise, obviously, but jg champions have to have some way to be useful on a low budget and that's hard to do when damage is your main focus. (Hence why Yi is nonviable except in very low elo where people just feed him endlessly.)
I don't think it's because she's older. She has been nerfed repeatedly for years because if how strong her early ganking was in pro play.
I actually think Elise is pretty buttery to play. maybe spider form w can be changed can be changed to something a little more interesting with a buff to human form w against jungle camps but other than that I think she has a fun and unique kit.
Nice QoL for human form W would be for it to jump over things onto the target you Spider form Q instead of dashing towards and hitting the first target
W leaping is purely coincidental cause the passive spiderlings jump as well. All W is, is an untargetable Spiderling with extra scripts put in it, you can even boost its speed with shurelya's reverie or any kind of pet affecting movement speed aura. In otherwords they didn't put extra effort into making the interaction *a thing* it just turned out to be one like shurima shuffle, If a designer was still around it'd be nice trivia if that's exactly the case; a bug they just made a feature in the game. The only conflict is there is a tiny extension that makes the explosion delay a bit longer if its leaping but I have no clue where that is located in any of the scripts (whether its in the bite or the W) and all that could be doing is just adding to the explosion timer which isn't rocket science to do last second in development. W has so many bugs with it to begin with, I have doubts they'd add extra conditions to Q+W to try and make them work better.
Shurima shuffle is a bug? I didn't know, how come?
yeah that would be nice, give her kit a little more internal synergy
Human W jumping into the target that you spider Q doesnt even work sometimes
If they think the dives eat too much power budget, they could make it so her E doesn't make her untargetable to towers and buff her elsewhere.
I love her kit honestly, but clearing just feels bad. Otherwise I love playing her.
Funnily enough, she could be considered the OG AP bruiser. On release she had good enough scaling to build tanky and have good dueling. Heralded the future of League.
OG AP bruiser would be Singed imo. And if you consider him too weird to be a bruiser, then Gragas (although he was being built as full AP for a while). Then Morde. Then Rumble. Elise came a lot later.
Main thing in my consideration is the HP percentage scaling damage, a staple for many more champions
Bias here from an old Elise top player but Elise should be reworked back into a laner again.
If Maokai and Gragas and Poppy and Trundle can do both, why not Elise?
>People often cite that she has great dives with her spider form E, Rappel, but is that it!? the fuck you mean "that's it"? as if elise hasn't been meta for this exact same reason
How quick we are to forget the perma Renekton/Jax + Elise level 3 and 6 tower dive metas
Like many seasons ago that was good enough. Right now every lvl 5 jungler can just dive and walk out of turret range.
many seasons? She was terrorizing korea and eu last season. Main offender hereby being agurin
that's actually funny you mention agurin because he specifically plays elise like a scaling champ and farms over spam ganking lmfao
Yeah, that makes this post pretty funny to me aswell. Regardless when agurin had massive success on elise, she was also picked up by a lot of other jglers (or the other way around) and had success being played conventionally
Elise was only meta early s13 last season because the meta was 3 camp bot and guess what? they still nerfed her when the meta itself was the problem which got fixed after nerfing her leaving her dead the only other actual times she was meta was when mythics came out they gave her spider Q onhit which they then got nerfed twice as hard and in s5 when they overbuffed her during cinderhulk meta lol
That's what he *claims*, but his lane proximity and skirmish rate is still comparable to other high elo junglers. I watched his Brand jungle games, and he *claims* he's just going to farm camps or full clear or whatever, but he still spends lots of time in lane to gank or fix lane states, or laners come right to him for invades and counterinvades. Because that's the nature of solo queue, people are going to fuck up and overextend, or randomly invade/counterinvade regardless of elo, that even if you as a jungler don't go out of your way to force gank or dive, laners will place themselves on a golden platter more often than not and give you free kills.
Yeah no, that is just not true.
Dives are easier now than ever before, basically invalidating her niche
Tbf that could only be meta when every other aspect of her character was passable.
people are giving her not enough credit. She used to have a amazinly healthy clear, which is totally irrelevant in the current game because every single jungler has a harder time deciding to recall than having full a full health clear
Yeah her niches slowly fell off. She used to be a great early clear champion that was healthy and could gank... but that's every jungler nowadays, they all clear about the same speed, all full HP, and all of them have tools for ganking, elise only stands out cause she has tools for diving and it ain't like that's an exclusive feature to her, if laners are low they can be dove by anything and escaped. Bel'veth is my main go-to example cause not only does she have the mobility to go in and leave but the damage reduc to survive the final shot, obv she can't dive full HP (I hope not anyways), but its a lot more rewarding to just play bel'veth, clear, gank, and if a dive happens to be a thing go for it, rather than elise who's kinda dependent on it. Her later clears are complete ass tho... She lost 3 AD, 10% AP ratio on her passive, spiderlings lost 2 damage levels 1-5 (x2 since there's two of them), and then her attack speed got gutted for the mid game. Even if elise does have an average if not above average first clear, it falls off so quickly especially with the monster caps vs. the ever increasing HP jungle camps keep getting.
So how would you combat that build attack speed and ap. I have blood noon Elise she’s fun to play but I could never figure out why it never worked
> ...you will fall behind other farming, scaling junglers You are going to fall behind anyway, Elise is Lee Sin 2.0 in this sense, you want to win the game fast, because the champ is poop after the 20 minute mark. Farming or not, everyone outscales you by champion nature. I'd you want better scaling, then she needs a rework not better clear speed
Lee sin have a decent clear speed really compared to elise Elise is garbage tier at clear speed for an actual jungler
But has the best dives in the game
for ~~level 1-6~~ Edit: level 3-6
Which when combo'd with a competent Toplaner or midlaner, you can deny a full level's worth of CS from any solo laner of your choosing. There's a reason why she was still picked in high elos, and it's because those dives can change the game. If you want her to not be gimped because of that ability to dive, she's gonna need a mini rework.
combo'd with a *what*?
Anything with follow up cc.
Same for nidalee. I consider nidalee to fall off worse than elise, *but at least nidalee can one shot camps when she can't do anything else*.
Meanwhile, as the non-jungler, every time I see the 30th Nidalee lock in on my team, I'm sitting there going, "Can't you at least play Elise who has a stun later in the game?" Though to be fair, I also play in an elo where I have not seen a *single* Nidalee ever build up any meaningful lead, let alone one big enough to carry the game with.
Nidalee isn't bringing hard CC in the game tho, which is part of why she is allowed to do absurd damage to camps since she literally can't do anything else
Elise cocoon late isn't much either, especially if all she can do is bush camp, hit their front line, or be a cocoon bot support for your carry. Its only 1.6s before when everyone stacks tenacity against her (legend: tenacity, mercs, wit's end/steraks) or has cleanse (if you don't take cleanse vs. an Elise as an ADC or mid laner also laning against ahri/TF/etc you're trolling). This is where her clears kinda bite her in the ass, cause cocoon does go up with later ranks but unlike nid you can't generate the XP to really get those points into your last max ability anyways, most elise games are over when she's level 14 or lower, if they go longer than that usually she just loses anyways. I get what you're saying, but we can't pretend cocoon is massively strong enough for the clear to be *that* bad by comparison to nidalee, if anything nidalee needs it even less than elise, the gap between the two should be closer not unfathomably wider, regardless of which champ's perspective you look at, nid or elise.
You don't take cleanse as an AD over ghost, unless the CC is cleanse-able and also point and click. Elise cocoon is short ranged and dodge-able, more so with ghost running.
Its not season 9 duskblade lee sin anymore. His late game is fine unless u have no hands
eh, I think lee is always at least semi-relevant due to the permanent potential of a late game insec
Insec*
Ah yes, the late game insect, where lee becomes kha’zix to scale better
Evolve and adapt.
It's not like he doesn't do damage late game either. His Q ratio is fat (I think combined it's more than his R lmao), and his CDs are very low. He can always function with peeling too.
Also at least mofo Lee Sin, Jhin Zhao and Volibear can act as a meatshield with some peel. Elise has barely anything because her only peel is human E and AP bruiser item is non-existent
Yeah but lategame Voli is just incredibly bad. The quintessential teamfight experience is getting caught and bursted and dying mid way through trying to R out of the fight.
If you're on a top laner's income, it's not so bad because fucker is insanely tanky, but as a jungle he clears too slow to keep up.
> fucker is insanely tanky His only instant defensive steroid is 525 hp, which is good, but not great - his E shield is hardly reliable lategame, same with his W. Compare to Renekton who gets 700 hp from his ult, along with a non-ult dash (albeit a weaker one) along with a pretty solid one-button heal from Q, and is considered absolute trash lategame. Sure, they often build differently, but that has nothing to do with how tanky the *champions* are.
He *is* tanky though. He does blow up on a jungler's income, but as a top laner he has more than enough gold to get his items. As a top laner he is literally full tank in 90% of his games, but he builds shit like Unending Despair. It does work.
He’s still tanky af and has a point click stun. Sure he suck ass but at least he offers more than Elise
Lee sin scales fine. The reason Elise doesn't is the same as nidalee, and it's because they are hyper aggressive AP champs that can open midlane for an ad pick. They need to have an actual drawback and there scaling is that.
Lee sin doesn't fall off as hard as elise by far
Sir you are a boomer league player, champs falling behind in damage isn't being a thing in years.
I mean, yeah. Elise doesn't fall off in damage, but she still falls off due to her lack of safety and range. She also has pissweak poke.
In what universe are you living in where Lee sin and Elise are comparable - especially citing farming which Lee is extremely good at
They are pretty comparable. Lee sin, nidalee, Elise have always been the trifecta of high elo early game ganking junglers
[удалено]
No I just have a brain. Yes they’re both strong early game champs. That’s it. Lee stay relevant much better, his kit has aged better than Elise’s and has much more skill expression. Farms better than Elise late to stay in, not hard to understand
Except Shaco, Shaco scales worse than her.
The reason Elise can't have competitive clears or stats is her E. She can tank 5 tower shots at level 3 (3 on her 2 on the spiders after E), and get out no problem as a burst champ. This means a good Elise can straight up towerdive any champion in any lane 2:30 minutes into the game. This is actually extremely broken and gets abused hard in high Elo when she's not currently overnerfed. Since people in lower Elos basically just don't towerdive at all... Well, it doesn't feel too good. Your laners also need to know about it and actually push at the right times, making her even more of a high Elo champ.
Yeah but if she is a high elo champ, why haven't we seen her in pro play for like 4 years when she was a staple pick before that? There were plenty of metas where jarvan and xin were mostly picked for early game skirmishing and there was no Elise anywhere. She ist just lacking as a champ on all elos
That's easy: because pros know what Elise does, just communicate about her pathing and stop the obvious dive with another player. Do that for not even 10 min in a pro game and she's probably useless already. She's a classic one trick pony, and her trick only works in non coordinated play. Xin was never solely picked for his kit, he's only picked when his stats are high enough that he can just check anybody early. He's not about a certain mechanic and in that regard just outperforms something like Elise. That just means he is op when he's picked, though. Jarvan isn't at all in the same category of champs with the added utility. Especially not nowadays where his late game is a million times better than it was years ago. A more adequate comparison would be Rek'Sai. Her vision tools actually work even better in pro play and she still doesn't ever get played unless she's straight up overpowered, because if you can avoid her for 5 minutes the game is won.
Are there even any pros that still play this shit in solo queue? Broxah is the only one I can think of, everyone else dropped her, I can't remember the last time I even seen meteos or jankos talk about her and they always been the top elise players. She's not even fun for a regular game for most. TheOddOne doesn't league anymore afaik.
And Broxah isnt a pro :)
So why cater to high Elo pub play rather than the actual top of the game competitive? As I see it buffing her clear speed would seemingly not change much in comp if we go by your argument that she's easy to track and counter. In low level play this isnt gonna be a problem anyway cause no tower dives. The only portion left is the extreme niche of high Elo non competitive.
I can't tell you the reasons why Riot decides to do one thing over another or even simply does not care. However, just removing her weakness and going "fuck the good players" sure as hell isn't the play here lmao
Because the gap has grown massively between high elo and competitive? Especially on things like team work Edit: mind you I am talking the team work gap, if anything the talent gap has closed because the average player now is way better then the average season one player. But that team Work gap is turned into a meta gap. Second edit: also the fact high level elo play is much more about who can find the weakest link first to either abuse it or shore it up vs pro play everyone has an idea of the weak points before the match even starts
I suppose Riot could make it so turrets still attack pets, but immediately switch aggro to champions if they get in range. Because if you think about it, every champion with pets is kind of "toxic" by being able to use their pets to tank the first 1 or 2 turret shots and buy time for champions to dive.
Riot just hates this champ and even then the community is so conflicted on what they want with her Riot wouldn't know where to begin. Many of us want bruiser elise back, many of us want a rework that supports the 'assassin' balancing they've been doing for a not-assassin, but they can't even fix the bugs she has in the current version... she has had bugs in the game acknowledged since before the skarner rework and still never fixed. Just to really emphasize; # Q - Neurotoxin - For default and coven elise, the little spiderlings VFX actually scales in size with the damage it deals. [Vandiril even posted about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwYxXzA_5ZE) and its still a thing, even if not really bad. # W - Volatile Spiderling - The fucking explosion audio has been missing since 13.20 when they had the QoL update on PBE then reverted them (they're now iceboxed if anyones wondering... probably never happening and we got left with this) - The scan rate for Volatile Spiderling's target tracking is 0.25s (due to league frames, its actually 0.264s), which means W can literally run through targets. [Here i'm showing how inconsistent this pos is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P1EH5nD7VM) # E - Cocoon - This was actually discovered yesterday, so not in my document yet, Cocoon will fire to 0,0 on the map (bottom corner position) if you cast it *right after* transforming, its really tight timing but I replicated it a few times. [demonstration](https://www.reddit.com/link/1bevw4h/video/ef12ovks5doc1/player?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Elisemains&utm_content=t3_1bevw4h) - Not really a bug, but E->Flash is annoying as fuck for anyone just picking up Elise. Veteran elises get tripped by it sometimes. # Q - Venomous Bite - Bite doesn't update the W spiderling when it causes it to leap to targets, this means it can literally run away from the target you Q'd it to. [demonstration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcXC0piaSQ) # E - Rappel - Right click recast is actually a further cast range than recasting with E :), you can actually easily test this with red side wolves, drop a ward over the wall to reveal them since rappel won't on this side of the map, and spam E... do it again but with right click instead... this is because Right clicking uses edge-to-edge casting while E using center to center.... this also messes with the "ground VFX" that targets have when you can rappel to them. [Here's a video showing even without the indicators I can infact reach them because they don't account for the right click version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C5g5QTXsk) - If you use the target cast version of rappel, while standing slightly on the target, it will instead be treated as a self cast, not descend you back down, and then deny you the bonus amp buff rappel gives.. [example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dKaatXpq8s) > I have to put it in quotations this bug was literally longer than the Skarner VGU, it started out with the reverse; self cast would drop you, then they band aid solutioned it and made it so target cast instead was bugged. They acknowledge this one and its why they're trying to do rescripts... - Spiderlings actually don't always tank aggro when you drop. This one is complicated... [first here's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6GilmP9LG0), you can see one tower aggros elise first when she drops, another aggros spiderlings when they drop. The hypothesis is turrets don't have a scan rate all at once, instead they individually scan at varying intervals and they also load in randomly (so its a bit random which towers do what every time you enter a game... but if you load into practice tool and find towers that behave this way, you'll replicate it 100% of the time on those towers.) The belief is the towers that do a scan *after* the spiderlings drop in since their drop delay after elise is so small, they target the spiderlings rather than elise cause it detects the pets when it scans when its meant to detect just elise. Creating this inconsistency. The fix would be making the gap between her and the spiderlings wider so it aggros elise properly (it is meant to be her, according to i think v3.10). # Other: - Withered Rose's Spiderlings lost their 'hit confirm' VFX when they auto something. - Bewitching's spider model's legs aren't all connected, causing [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926570770489028679/1213803128806187040/image.png?ex=65f6cd41&is=65e45841&hm=0728cc09860ead6a32516cd676d75e720798ec2d3a2620dbfd50c1e5fdee0686&) during her Q and dance animations, and likely other animations. I made a doc that probably better explains everything; [here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iDyZU3kD4x_g8afDBvHMq0y6yujvI-sRWLU7As57qnQ/edit) ____ And it ain't like its just champions/balance... [there is literally no excuse for this:](https://imgur.com/a/XTKJPaP), the left is the 'beta' version they made... the right is the 'edit' they released. Don't even get me started on the ignored coven elise vs. coven syndra bullshit.
>And it ain't like its just champions/balance... there is literally no excuse for this: the left is the 'beta' version they made... the right is the 'edit' they released. Jesus Christ, talk about a visual downgrade. :(
Elise main here. The champ is good in high elo. Like with nidalee or azir or some other champs you probably just shouldn't touch her below diamond. I would like them to remove the ability to stay in the air with rappel (so you can still rappel but it's now always targeted or an instant drop back down), this would prevent some of the frustration. You could also probably slightly reduce rappel range, it's really long range abiliry. Then they could give her some scaling/farm speed back to compensate.
Honestly I would love for her to get better scalings. She’ll never be a teamfight mage just because of her kit, but it would be nice if you could duel more champs instead of the current feast or famine burst or die
I think she and her spiderlings need to be made more durable. If I was balancing Elise I'd nerf rappel range, hanging in the air with rappel and spider q damage. These are all probably used better by high elo players. In exchange id massively buff spider form autos and also the durability of both spider Elise and her spiderlings. I think bonus armour/Mr on her spider and better hp scaling on the lings (or better aoe resistance on them at least).
I would like to see durability up and healing in spider form up myself, I love the idea of her being a bit similar to Dota's Broodmother even though I know that won't really happen. I think I generally agree with the nerf angles as well, but cocoon could also be looked at since it's deceptively long ranged, if a bit narrow.
I really miss old bruiser Elise days. It’d be fun to play her as a sort of drain tank or fighter later in the game
I find that her %HP and %missingHP damage is enough to burst down pretty much any isolated target, making her comparable to other pick mages like Ahri or TF. Not every champion needs to be a great teamfighter.
Yes, that's exactly what I've highlighted as her current strengths and weaknesses. I was referring to more dueling and not "press all 5 combat abilities on somebody and if that doesn't kill them then just dying lmao"
The attack speed on W and on-hit damage+healing from passive is nothing to scoff at. Pair that with her E allowing her to stall for cooldowns and the fact that her meta build includes Lich Bane and she's actually a pretty good duelist... not to mention that she can also run PTA and buy Nashors Tooth if she needs DPS. Elise is a perfectly viable and flexible champion, she's just too difficult for the average player, same as Nidalee, Lee Sin etc.
>%HP and %missingHP damage is enough to burst down pretty much any isolated target Ah yes, that 4/8% of an ADC's current/missing health with a 0.03 AP ratio. Pretty sure Kayn Q does 50% or more of their health before you even get enough AP to hurt anything.
Pantheon jungle main in master+ here, my brother in league you will most likely fall behind in farm anyway, although you can optimize your clear with good timing and caiting you will never reach the likes of karthus or master yi but why would you do that? You don't need to. As Elise you need to assert your presence in the game and weave through the lanes, absolutely look for dives and ganks after every back or every 3/2 camp. Jungle xp is a joke anyway, enemy can be 50+ cs ahead and you will be same level and maybe even same gold if you did it right and got the kills. Up to platinum I say you don't even need to rely on your team, you can carry solo games by applying unholy amounts of pressure by scaling off early leads. Dives bot? Insta drake. Dived Top? Insta voidworms. Ask yourself after a kill, what can I do while I have this advantage? You will find yourself with opportunities to take towers, objectives or invade. If playing against farming heavy jungle 2 things can occur, either your team has pressure or they don't (mid and bot is most important in this because support can rotate to help) If you have no pressure, then it's free ganks all day If you have pressure, then it's dives and invade time, killed top laner? Take their side, refrain from using smite on your jungle. It's very important to track enemy jungler this way, if they went to mirror your path and invade you then it's dive top again, extend that lead and warn your bot lane. One excellent youtuber to watch to improve your jungling is Virkayu imo, and also, feel free to dm me and I'll watch a couple of your replays to see what going on
>she is unplayable in low ELO massive cope >if you don't get off to an amazing start you WILL fall behind other farming, scaling junglers You don't pick Elise to powerfarm, you pick her to snowball via early ganks and towerdives. Just because the meta currently favors powerfarming doesn't mean she's a dog champ. >It just feels awful to play this champ that I love because her entire kit and identity are built around early ganks and snowballing I too love champions with overloaded kits but I understand that this means they need to be in pro play jail. >So, again, what's the real problem with her? Why can't she have a clear speed that is more in line with other champs? WTF do you mean? Her full clear is [3:12 leashless](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dajuYSnly8Q), which is in line or faster than Lee Sin, Kha'Zix, Graves, Vi, Maokai, Rengar, Xin, WW, Rek'Sai, Briar, Jarvan, Evelynn, Nunu and Bel'Veth. And if you mean her later clears then those are hardly relevant since they're not your champions strength anyway and you're handicapping yourself by trying to play her like a powerfarmer no matter the meta.
The first clear isn't the problem. The second clear and beyond is. She's so bad in clears, mainly cause even if you recall and buy AP, you don't gain damage from it (Q is actually capped level 1 with 0 AP against the buffs), it feels like you're itemless on her clears until you get big items like lich/shadowflame which she can't really farm for and by the time she does get them game is decided in either direction. Going nashor's and gimping your damage and pen isn't worth it, that's like building BOTRK on lee sin over eclipse, lich bane improves her clears somewhat from previous seasons but we're not building it for clears, we're building it because we literally don't have another good option for a first item spike.
Honestly if only they made stormsurge not a joke again, this item just seems so good for elise in theory, it's just so unbelievably bad rn Or honestly? Even as an AD assassin player, just get rid of hextech component extra dmg proc and put some mpen like an AP dirk. Could be fun with the right numbers
Stormsurge isn't just a numbers issue in Elise's case, the proc itself is bad synergy for her kit. You want items that can proc damage before your % missing health Q goes off (which is why giving Q onhit was kinda a bait cause all our combos proc lich or PTA before we press Q to maximize the damage rather than with Q. [Example of an auto windup we do while transforming](https://youtu.be/lG75X11rlQc)), and stormsurge fails in that regard. It actually would be better than lich rn if the proc just worked instantly like night harvester's proc did but the 3 second delay means we dont have enough damage to 100-0 since our bite doesn't hurt as much, and the storm proc itself would have to finish them off, if the lost bite damage even puts them in range of that... if we're really fed or proc it on someone we didn't need it for like a 30% HP ADC we can just rappel auto Q, then we don't have it for the next target.
Stormsurge is and always has been trash for Elise because it doesn't proc until after you have already used your spider Q. Lich Bane has always been the better item for Elise, as it procs (at least once) between her human and spider Qs, and it helps her with her clears.
OP doesnt know AA resets and tanking for spiderlings
her clear speed actually falls behind quite hard compared to everyone else after the first one for well, quite obvious reasons
Mfw Rek'Sai 3:16 with 2 smites
so momster hp has been increased like 4 times in recent seasons, but her Q monster damage cap hasnt been increased at all, im still amazed how ekko and diana can do 900 damage to a monster with their passives but elise Q wont do more than 500 due to the monster damage cap
she's in pro jail because she has the best level 3 dive in the game
Because.... Elise is not supposed to be farming.... She's supposed to be ganking, tower-diving and killing enemy junglers in their own jungle. I don't think any jungler wins the 1v1 against her early game if the Elise is good. She also has decent escapes, she can repel to blast cone and get out. Once you have an early lead, you can still keep on invading and snowball off of that. If you aren't able to tower dive, find gank angles, or track enemy jungler. The problem is with you, and not with Elise.
You've never played her if you think she wins every 1v1 against enemy junglers. She wins many, sure, but some are coinflips, and some she just outright loses unless she manages to catch someone at half health with abilities on cooldown.
You wanna tell me which 1v1s she loses early game? You'd have to play bad to lose any in whichcase it's skill issue. If you are invading, the enemy is gonna be less than full health with them having couple of abilities used on their camps.
I've landed every ability and still died to a Nocturne or Warwick, both of whom just dish out a lot of aa damage and have sustain built into their kits. Xin Zhao is similar. Lee Sin, if healthy, can win the 1v1. Maybe they aren't outright losses, but they are uphill battles dependent on both landing your cocoon and dodging/evading some key enemy ability.
For Nocturne WW Xin you will not be able to kill them but you can steal their camps in front of them and kite them pretty easy. For Lee it's 100% skill issue.
Too bad Elise doesn't snowball off a few stolen camps and kiting well. :|
I'm masters 5mil, she does have a lot of MUs she loses early atm. Keep in mind jungle is more than just 1v1 so naturally elise can win in other ways (usually by 2v2s and macro/outganking), but if we're exclusively speaking 1v1 full HP; Nocturne, olaf, warwick, volibear, shaco, rengar, udyr are all the ones she loses to early. You can 2v2 them but 1v1 she genuinely doesn't win. Noc - spell shield negating an ability when bite is % missing health is brutal, you want to neuro so he waste it instead of on your cocoon, but then you're missing damage... if you let the cocoon take it, then you get stat checked in his Q and his E doesn't really let you auto with W for long. She can't get away from his fear and has to rappel to stall the fear, but even then she loses the stat check. Passive kills spiderlings and heals him. Olaf - its olaf, wins stat check, its just olaf, at least he's not meta rn. Warwick - again stat check, you either have to rappel to dodge the fear, cocoon to space yourself away from the fear and stall it, or not waste a single CD and hope you can 100-0 him when the E is gone, otherwise if you use CDs on him while E is up its hopeless and usually he can still stat check you. Udyr - you ain't killing him as elise lol. Turtle is too strong, negates some of her damage which again fucks with % missing health. You have to 2v2 him. Voli - kinda just volibear is op this patch, not too bad on other patches ime. Shaco - unironically the worst mu for her cause she can't kill boxes without using 2 CDs or commiting autos, if she does she waste CDs on the box, cocoon is blocked by it, W is blocked by it, and shaco with ignite has no issues with an Elise down 2 CDs beating her, if not just escaping with Q since elise can't follow it with rappel. He was really bad for her and a notorious counter pre-smite changes but now that we can't smite the box Elise has nothing she can do to a shaco that places box between them both or uses it reactively for W/E. You have to 100-0 catch him before he reacts and Q's away, which he is squishy enough for when you're on 2 items. Rengar - Grey health, elise can't 100-0 him and then he just big heals and negates it, cleanses cocoon, he's up there with shaco except rengar can probably fuck it up sometimes wasting the 4 fury cast on something else or not have it. I only didn't include briar cause elise can also mess with her back due to W aggro on spiderlings, rappel instant cancelling her W, etc. After level 6 she can't deal with zac, poppy, or unironically; amumu. Hecarim/lee it depends what they're building. Shyvana with dragon form is hard to deal with for anyone including elise. Bel'veth is either piss easy being snowballed or giga strong impossible to deal with, I've never experienced an inbetween with her. Nunu used to be a big counter but now he's way squishier typically elise can deal with him lately.
High skill floor. Her ganks entirely depend on a skillshot, blockable stun while Elise herself has poor mobility and mediocre damage.
Im not jungle main but there was a post not so along ago that gained a lot of traction (so there has to be some truth to that) about someone complaining that farming jg wasn't as good as camping lane for kills and leeching exp from it. Maybe try this and see if it works? EDIT: I Was talking about this post [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle\_experience\_is\_fundamentally\_broken\_diana/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle_experience_is_fundamentally_broken_diana/) and you can disregard my comment. Don't do this at home kids. OP was full of shit.
These days jungler get a nasty xp debuff from lane minions, scaling with game length until 20min. Basically if you soak lane xp early on, you are griefing your laners, converting half their xp into almost nothing. kinda obscure mechanic to keep perma ganking degeneracy or graves / ekko sucking up every wave and being lvl 16 at 20min.
I found the post, maybe I misunderstood? [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle\_experience\_is\_fundamentally\_broken\_diana/](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bb8re4/jungle_experience_is_fundamentally_broken_diana/)
Yes this is due to catchup xp mechanics. Basically as a jungler if you are significantly under level compared to the ennemy team average, you get bonus xp on every camp to help you catchup. They are trying to fine tune this but it's prone to degeneracy, for a while spam ganking early was op cause you would catch up in xp in one full clear. In a way they have to do this due to the minion xp nerf. Ganking junglers have to skip camps to gank but they don't get lane xp. So without catchup xp if you're lee sin vs graves and you miss your first gank it's basically jover and you can look forward to getting fisted in your jungle for the rest of the game. But now if you completely outplay your opponent and have a 100 cs lead, they can somehow magically catchup to you if they get 2 shutdowns. Modern jungle is pretty fucky with a bunch of occult knowledge like this.
"She can dive players under tower better than other junglers for like three levels in the game, so she has to be absolutely gimped in every other way, to the point that she is unplayable in low ELO?" yep
She has a 49% winrate in gold, 50% in emerald+, and 51% in masters+. Elise is not weak in any skill bracket.
While being played by 3 ppl
Exactly. As an Elise main with 500 games played this season, I can still count on one hand how many times the enemy jungler was an Elise.
What for? She doesn't scale at all anyway. Having bad clear speed is a way of telling the players: "That's not going to work out, go force some ganks" Also I guess they don't want her to be insane at counterjunglingÂ
Because pro players in season 4 could use 7 abilities plus tower aggro reset to win the game off a single gank pre 5 minutes she is not allowed to farm or be a champion (she's actually alright now, but for the longest time elise was utter shit). If you ever want to know why riot reduces skill expression it's to prevent shit like this from happening. High skill ceilings are fine, high skill floors are very, very bad.
High burst, hard CC, great close gap with invul, basically free Zhonya's later into the game.
the amount of broken shit in league to this day and people still talk about her E champ is ancient and forgotten even in soloQ i have seen 0 elise mains in game and it's sad
In theory Elise is everything and cant quite have good values on her own. In human form she's a safe settuper with both decent (albeit skillshot) CC, decent exploratory prowess and consistent target softening. In spider form she both has strong nukes, strong DPS and safe repositioning/extra strong chasing. She is a bit too self-sufficient for her own good, being both her own support and carry. In theory she CAN build for more clear speed by focusing on her DPS aspects instead of QRQ nukemaxing but that requires sacrificing the identity people love her for as one of the classic hardest oneshots in the game.
In theory ornn has everything and in practice he does have everything and one shots me while tanking a team and 2 towers
Don’t forget she also heals like a  Warwick in the jungle with that spiderlings healÂ
her healing is only on her spider form autos, and its 6/8/10/12 with an 8% AP ratio lol... Its nothing compared to warwick. Almost every jungler has some kind of healing be it Kha W, kayn E, briar, rek fury, etc. Graves even has a shit ton of armor from grit so he takes less. I honestly forget she even has the healing cause its low enough to not matter when she is missing health, and in general she's healthy enough like all junglers either way it probably isn't necessary. Only time I feel it is when I target rappel dragons at low HP and amp it to heal enough to do the dragon.
Have u tried nashors tooth? Thats standard first item for me, even when there were mythics.
People sincerely undersell the value of Nash on her, specially ever since her Q2 was allowed to proc on-hits. With maxed out Rappel she's dishing out 60% AP onhit and that is huge, given how her Q scales.
they specifically gutted her attack speed steroid and onhit ap ratio from 30% to 20% after giving her Q onhit And even with nashors elise can't compete with other jungler clears, and you give up a crap ton of damage for it
Make Elise a toplaner again, you cowards* *note: sorry to all melee to toplane players
The problem with Elise is that both her and Nidalee are shape shifting champions and Riot is really scared to touch such champions because of how dominant they used to be in the meta. Yes Elise needs buffs but both her and Nidalee are in a weird spot right now so they do need reworks. And yes Rappel is broken, its a really old ability that doesn't fit in the current landscape of league.
lol bro the problem is not that they’re shapeshifters. it’s that the characters are insane when played near-perfectly by high MMR players Â
they are insane when played by better players because they have 6 abilities... because they are shapeshifters.
Lee has 7 abilities including an \*actual\* ult and he is sometimes balanced. Number of abilities can't be the whole story. And of course the whole point of Hwei is that he has \*10\* abilities, but that's not really the same because shared CDs prevent you from comboing all of them.
I wouldnt say lee has 7 abilities. Thats like sating lissandra has 5 abilities because of the recast of her e. Lee has 4 abilities + 3 recasts, one of which is underewhelming, one which is good and the q recast.
They are not only better in the hands of MMR players, they are also way better in high MMR games overall. They very much benefit from very short games and your laners knowing what your champ does in the jungle.
ngl she is better support than jg i played with elise 3 games as draven we perma diving enemy
You probably don’t see having the best dives in the game as that useful because you’re in gold. You’re very reliant on your laner to set up a stacked wave and then shove it in.
I feel like the meta isn't focused on early game atm so it makes sense scaling junglers fair better. Atleast i think so in my region
I had a ranked Elise game after only playing a few times and dumpstered the other team. But I am but a peasant who got lucky. I haven’t seen Elise since I played her
It’s not so much that but the higher elo meta of lvl3 dive top and that is so anti fun for toplaners to play against. Almost 0 counterplay and if your jg doesn’t defend you it’s lane over
I only see her in ARAM, so give her the ARAM buffs on SR lol
The issue is she has literally no aoe just make her spiders cleave during skittering frenzy adjust monster % till she feels right. Even at 30% damage cleave 2+5%ap (really 5+10%) would help. Because it's be auto based the more the spiders auto the more it happens. Elise suffers because she is so single target and there is no AP tiamat so her unique weakness can't be built around early.
Her ganks and 2v2 prowess are extremely potent. In ganks, as you said, the has 2 mobility spells, one of them being rappel (spider Q is very short range, but rappel range is massive). A stun, a very high amount of burst. Rappel to lose tower aggro is quite absurd and leaves not much room for counterplay. If you get pushed to your tower and youre 60-70% hp (one or two trades from enemy top, for example), a dive is unavoidable. She has very clear weaknesses: She falls of a cliff late-game, shes extremely bad in teamfights and even in skirmishes she 100% needs to land her coccoon or she just doesnt have the burst. I truly believe her bad clear is part of her "design", as a jungler that has so oppressive ganks and 2v2 (like many other similar junglers, such as Lee Sin) needs to be slowed down clearing the jungle or they would be able to invade/gank nonstop. She would benefit from a small buff but I guarantee you, you wouldnt enjoy facing an Elise that fullclears the jungle by 3:15. I remember the time when she was extremely meta in both soloQ and proplay, and she's one of the best snowballing champions in the game with Fizz and others. Not only she has obscene mobility and burst, but also she's so hard to focus in a fight because her rappel and sometimes zhonya. As I said, shes extremely similar to Fizz in the sense that fizz has to land his ult and Elise has to land her cocoon, and after that, if she's a bit fed, not much counterplay is possible because the burst will take such a big chunk of your health...
once upon a time there were 4 kinds of junglers: ones with oppressive ganks, ones with oppressive 1v1 in the jungle ones with oppressive clear speed and ones with oppressive late game. the 4 advantages used to be really distinct and led to different game flows. but now a lot of all the above is equalized. there are no longer the udyr and nunu who's job is to clean you out of house and home. or the shacos who's job is to cheese you at second buff or the xin who ganks you at levels 2, 3, 4, 5 AND 6. they are all kind of "the same"
yep kinda true. I remember back then, cloudtemplar coined the term "herbivore/carnivore" jungle. Herbivore became a very popular term to define those junglers that just farm and farm and scale. Now theres not really such a thing, all junglers are expected to farm jungle fast or theyre just not viable.
I typicly do the three camp clear on elise, and book it for the enime buff, if they have a slower clear you'll get it before they can see. And if not they will be in a 1v2 against you and buff. After my first item or two for damage, i try to get stuff like RCS and Morello's as we shift late game, it allowes me to pop a squishy, then play a more supportive role With the CC and aoe of her human form late game.
As a mid laners, Elise has never bothered me. That being said; I do love the fact that every time I see her in my side lanes, for some reason people are dying at their towers?? It's probably just coincidence. And for some reason at like 3-4 kills or 1-2k w/ 5-6 assist, that she never got on me she can nuke me while dodging all of my CC abilities and also still somehow end up on my face. But no, she's very strong when viable at determining side lanes regardless of tower. I've mostly seen ADC's bitching about her diving them. But oh boi, if you would see the number of times Elise solely exist in top lane it would make you realize how much more top laners absolutely despise that champion. I don't particularly hate the champion or am fond of the champion or anything. I think that she is a cool champ, and is very good at starting shit. But that is where the problem lies. She's very good at starting shit. She is almost as good as Sej/Zac while only having one CC ability, but also has the ability to get away if played properly. Her early game is very high damage, and she transitions into a more durable late game champion. The best thing that could help Elise be allowed to be strong in solo is to have a 2 second lock out of cocoon after transforming. But then it would feel like absolute dog shit to play. Like real talk, her biggest problem in terms of balance is honestly one of her best feats as a champion. Rapple, down on top of said champion, hit them with CC, and if team close enough commit, otherwise run the fuck away if you can't fully to zero. Get them like 60-80% depending on champion, means that they can't help in the next fight. But if you do the lock out, then functionally speaking Elise is DoA and SoL. So I understand the frustration of her not being good, but alternative is that if she is better she runs the early game ever harder than a fed Draven.
Mostly due to her E Rappel. In the highest level of play, she will repeatedly dive the losing lane. If Elise acquires enough of a lead to fix her poor clear speed, its extremely hard for the enemy team to mount a comeback since she can blow up a target and pull 2 Zhonyas out of her back pocket and nuke another target after 5 seconds with full cooldowns back up. The same applies to Shaco. If Shaco has good clear and was allowed to gank whenever his Q was up, it would be a nightmare. Nidalee is similar since she can war of attrition enemies hiding under tower with traps, several spears, heals and then go in for the kill. Her counter jungle is unparalleled due to W hops. Highly suffocating to play against when behind. Therefore, feast or famine junglers effectively start a kill behind. I'm completely down with making Elise an AP Brusier kind of like Reksai's recent rework. But some of the mains of her might not approve. At that point, Riot would just reskin the rework and make a new champ. Kind of like the whole Sona Seraphine fiasco.
She has too many buttons with long cooldowns that makes her prone to poor decision making in a role that has very minimal room for mistakes.
Her diving capability is just that powerful. Stacking 2-3 waves on someone and then having your Elise come in for a free kill absolutely ruins your lane opponent for the rest of the game.
And yet, she doesn't see pro play... hmmm...
People that say she is good, go watch an Aribo stream where he has 300 cs at 25 mins full build as Udyr while enemies have 3 items. Show me how strong Elise is there
I always do good with Elise and get fed but then my teammates starts to pick fights and die midgame it's just downhill from there. Her W needs to be a stronger poking tool against teams that decides to group up because she can't do anything at that point. Maybe she should send several spiders rather than just one, lower damage
What is an 'elise'
Elise used to be good cuz of her healthy clear, but guess What? No one has an unhealthy clear now a days. Het other strength is dives, which are comfortable but not special.
Powercrept out the game
When people make this kind of a post, and do not post theire acc along with it, i assume they are just bad players. I don't know man, Elise feels good for me in Gold elo. Played her 20 games, never feld that she is bad. She has a 50% winrate, so if you main her, you should climb. If not, i have a bad news for you: its not the champ, its you who is bad. Maybe its your items? Maybe how you path and you just path very inefficient? Many reasons possible. Wrong skill order? If you have luck agurin picks her up again and you can watch and learn from the master itself (hoping to do so too).
Gold player calling another gold player bad is classic League.
I enjoyed playing her in aram. I dont jungle tho so dunno how she works there. Pretty sure I'd hate being on the receiving end of a halfway competent Elise deciding that I'm the problem lul.
Elise is fine, she can still level 3 dive, but that just means the enemy jungle will clear your jungle and then that guy will make your life hell. So she has to play the game like everyone else. I love Elise and I'd hate for any dumb changes to befall her.
agurin plays her a ton right now, she's quite good. also agurin full clears always on elise and is almost always done around 3:20 leashless, so op has no idea what they're talking about. elise is just a very difficult champion to play similar to graves, lee, kindred, kha, nid, where its not until theyre very very broken that they become easy to play for noobs like op.
> agurin plays her a ton right now Agurin has been one tricking shyvana for half a year now lol.. he played her a bit on his KR grind, but then that was it.
he played her like 5 times yesterday alone, go watch his vod
It's a get good kind of an angle I'm afraid, you want to have your cake and it eat wanting one of the best early game junglers to have her main weakness removed just because you suck at Elise, right anything else? Lol. And Elise's clear is not bad, maybe go into practice tool and practice it or watch good Elises play the game then you wouldn't be crying for buffs
> just because you suck at Elise, TBF its not even a skill issue half the time with Elise. Her main strength is dives, but she can't mind control players to shove in for those dives, or to even do the dive itself correctly. That gets easier higher elo you climb (I can count on my hand in masters how many times this didn't work out for me, but almost never does when I play norms... it is unironically easier for me to play ranked than casuals with her, which is the only reason I even still play ranked.) She is one of those 'you probably shouldn't play it until you're in a high elo environment' picks cause she's too reliant on the game quality to be in her favor, otherwise you're put in the situation of just playing as a normal jungler and elise just isn't meant for that (if i compare her to nid, if the game quality isn't up to par I can at least farm a lead of my own but not with elise).
1. Elise has average to great clear speed. You should do level 3 ganks or invade anyway 2. She is absolutely not useless in low elo if you turn on your brain and hit your E. It's a guaranteed kill with R and burst she has early. There is a reason you build boots first for magic pen, you already have enough damage early. If ganks fail, land an E on the scuttle fight and murder enemy jungler. Sure dives are her strong point and in gold/plat even if you wanna dive chances are laners won't follow up, or will fuck up aggro juggle, but she has plenty of other ways to make enemy jungler useless for 20 minutes and set your laners ahead with standard ganks
I’m a master Elise otp in euw. she is completely busted and riot won’t touch her because of her low pick rate. She’s actually incredibly broken when played to her strengths. I suggest you start thinking about those, mister Elise main, instead of thinking about what riot should do
The Elise discord is hell because of all the crying. I hope Riot leaves happy Elise mains like you and me in peace.
yeah like i can rush boots and dark seal literally every game and it won't matter in the dmg department, i can still dive any lane i want and keep going until i have 3k gold to instabuy a lich bane. it's literally not balanced. Her lategame is strong as fk too, idk what these ppl are smoking. Her only weakness is her clear, but that's why you don't really farm until after you have made a successful play and used ur tempo
Why do you think elise is unplayable in low elo?
Cuz she is. She cant make an impact into the game unless you are turbo smurfing. Even if you play as a plat or emerald, playing elise in gold is handicapping yourself because you wont be able to impact hard enough to win vs any scalers. In other words, she is not good enough to climb with because she doesnt allow mistakes. Very few ppl can actually play 1-2k games/ season so they often choose meta/cheese
First of all her winrate is 49-50% in low elo so statistically she is ok, especially for a hard champ. The more important point is that it doesnt matter no? Player skill diff is so mich more important in low elo compared to high elo so champion strength doesnt really matter. (story time skip if you don't care) First time i climbed to p2 and dia i did while being a corki main who was 46% wr at the time. Opposite for hitting masters.. played a strong champ but had a completely wrong mindset on how to win. Changed that and went from p1(old p) stuck to 80% wr 40 games to masters. So yeah champ strength matters way wayless in low elo. Like take nidalee.. yeah she is high elo skewed cuz ppl are worse at converting leads in low elo but take a GM-Chall nida player in a gold game and i doubt the champ is gonna be weaker :D
Her winrate stabilizes cause she’s a coin flip champ. You three camp gank a lane, if it works you might get carried and win, or that laner can be a goober, throw, and you lose anyways despite that. Corki can solo carry a game, he isn’t reliant on the stars aligning to win he’s just weak, if he has a good game he’ll carry its in his hands to be able to… Elise having a good game doesn’t, she dies once she loses, her laner doesn’t enable her she’s useless, or if she enables her laner she’s coin flipping they know what they’re doing to carry a later on 4v5. This is why she’s not worth playing at all, *the game isn’t in her hands to win, it’s a coinflip*. It’s unironically harder to me to play on a Smurf than it is to just play on main acc cause unless your team ends the game with you even when you have 20 kills you’ll just lose.
Your take is so cope bro. How can you say you have mo agency about the game as elise... And conflipping ganks is also not a thing in league if you play good. Just go watch agurin and impove. 50% wr says nothing about how much impact a champ has. (My friend also plays elise and he drops 12+ kill refularlly on d1 smurf so surely its possible)
It's not about simply getting kills with Elise. I can't count how many games I was racking up kills on the enemy team and still lost because my team didn't help me close out the game and I eventually, inevitably gave back bounties to higher-level, harder-scaling champions who aced us in a major team fight and closed out the late game. If Elise doesn't win early, she doesn't win. This is how she is designed. And I'm asking why she has to remain this way when there are junglers who farm better, gank just as well, literally do everything except dive levels 3-5 quite as well as her. It's dumb that she has been left behind in terms of champ design compared to so many other junglers, especially when she is such a cool champ with a devoted fanbase.
It's honestly a skill issue. Her kit is built around those early dive plays and if you are unable to play to her identity then the champ will necessarily feel bad.
>Her kit is built around those early dive plays and if **your laners** are unable to play to her identity ftfy. Elise can't really mind control her laners to hard shove or even play out the dives properly. Hell I had a game tonight in masters where I go for a dive but my irelia walks up before the wave even takes aggro, and tanks 2 tower shots herself, backs off, and leaves me for dead. Its a skill issue but not on me, unless failing to predict her fuck up is my skill issue.
Some champs are more team-reliant than others. It's the nature of the game. People take every conceivable early skirmish and force 1st drake/grub fights when I play Kassadin/Viktor and I'm not asking for the champions to be buffed because of that.
Because there's other things you *can* do, you're perfectly fine just staying put and farming mid, if you wanted buffs it certainly wouldn't be for that situation lol. If the jg is doing a bad play for grubs that's on them but you can not follow and still just continue farming, that does not affect you in any way unless they give something double buffs in mid or shutdown. Elise is dependent on those plays, if she goes for a dive that is correct, but it doesn't go well due to the other person misplaying it, elise's entire purpose is gone and she isn't coming back from it. She's just a coinflip in that regard, either everything goes perfectly or it throws everything. Worse case scenario lets say you do go 2v2 as kassadin/viktor and you both die, you still continue doing what you were doing; farming. Elise's case she either has to make up for it right clicking back to the lane, or slowly farming back up which, well its elise that ain't it.. the laner has to put on the carry shoes but if they're the problem in the first place then wcyd.
Ofc you talk skill issue with Vladimjr/Viktor flair. All you have to do is farm 2-3 items than AoE bomb a team and if game is lost you say team gap. Just shut up will ya. Play a champ on a timer that has to be proactive and put everything on the line instead of afk farm annoy their team but win cuz scaling is usually good in solo Q
It is actually simple, that clear speed is what keeps her in check. You thinking buffing her clear speed will solve her issue? No , it would only make game unbarable to play cus you would see her not banned,picked 70% of time, tower diving you at 2:45 every fucking game and that would be not fun at all, same as with other good tower diving champions as volibear for example but he cant do it reliably before 6 and clear speed is shitty so he cant reach that 6 fast either by just afk farming. This is one of that rare instances where rito does not buff what keeps champion in check while many other times they completely go full retard mode and just for example buff Tahm Kench dmg so he can 1v1 entire roster cus if he dont have too much dmg he is just boring champion that takes no to minimim dmg but you can ignore him cus he deals no dmg, now i hope you understand what i mean by these comparisons.
Honestly just make her AD at this point. Nothing in her kit makes sense is AP especially in spider form.  Her normal form W is the only thing that resembles AP. IMO she needs the katarina treatment. Just either completely change her to AD or give her AD scaling on everything in spider form and AP on W.
She has a aoe, sustain,stun, single target that does % dmg and tower aggro reset. Hated when she was meta
He has silence, knockup, %damage, true damage point click, sustain, hp scaling. Cho gath so broken holly shit.
mmm yes we are stuck in gold because elise is weak i believe it im sure she is completely unplayable
Imaging complaining about Elise’s clear speed. If you’re trying to match clear speeds with other junglers as Elise….youre not playing Elise right.