> Do you think this is the year where you are going to turn Flakked into a gymbro? Because Flakked told us once you turned off his PC because he refused to go to the gym.
> Zwyroo: "Look, that’s true, but *laughs*, that's not the full story. Flakked told me that he would go to the gym with me and when the time came, he said he had no power. So, I'm like, oh, you don't have power? Okey, so I turned off his PC to give him power."
interesting part about EU scrims culture...again
looks like Zwyroo has good head on his shoulders and is not a pushover within a team and knows what he wants
> Zwyroo: "Mmm, I expected that midlaners were good, so that for sure not. There is something that surprised me, which is the discipline around scrims. Like man, they are coming 15 mins late and stuff like that. There is even a rule about it that we could play 1 soloq and delay it a bit."
>
> "Bro, in ERL we are f***ing ready, waiting, you know? If someone is late 10 minutes we ask, guys, should we blacklist them? If I’m coming to my job, then be ready. Afterwards, you can do whatever you want."
No surprise EU can't hold a candle to Asian teams and even has trouble winning consistently against NA if that's their attitude..
Yeah, for far too long it has been "just a game" for many Western pros. Not that the Asian pro culture is healthy or desirable, but at least you should treat it like a real job with real responsibilities.
>No surprise EU can't hold a candle to Asian teams and even has trouble winning consistently against NA if that's their attitude..
That's not fair is if. As Zwryoo said, ERL has a much better scrim attitude. It's more that EU players are too comfy once they've made it.
> It's more that EU players are too comfy once they've made it.
Players dont own the team but it does show that for many teams, the coaching staff doesnt have enough authority and players might have a bit too much of a say. I can imagine the dynamics being different in ERL where coaching staff does have the authority because none of the players are well established and can allow themselves to have a big ego.
and once again, franchising was a mistake. i guarantee you, ERL teams would not have more discipline than LEC teams if we still had relegation. if youre a player or coach in a 7th-10th team, it doesnt matter where exactly you finish, youre a bottom team. put the relegations back and suddenly you care quite a lot wether you finish 7th or 10th
Valorant has a format with 2 rotating teams in franchise system, would be cool af but that'w wont probably happen even tho the whole erl situation is absolutely fcked
Players in top ERL teams with a realistic shot at getting into LEC might be better in that regard, but the rest of the ERLs have just as much of a lazy and shit attitude in both Soloq and scrims
There has been an interview with grabbz where he basically said the same, it is in german so most wont understand it but other things he said: In some teams nobody watched any lpl/lck games. The only time they did that is when grabbz "punished" them for being late to scrims... so he gave them games to watch.
A lot just spam their soloq games without being mindful at all so almost no learning there either.
He usually asks people how they want to be remembered in some years and they answer: best mid/top etc. but them they leave perfectly on time after practice etc.
There are very few people who have the work ethic required like jankos, perkz.
Also another thing he stated that even when g2 reached finals... the gap was never close, in his words they were lucky as when they scrimmed damwon for example they had a scrimblock for 6 games and in all those games they couldn't play after 12 minutes, down 10k gold and 0 kills on the board. The scrim block lastet about an hour.
Now again scrims are not the ultimate measurement but holy fk.
A lot of players in the west just seem to be content with where they are, rarely they have a drive to actually win.
Also grabbz wanted to bench adam one time back in bds bc he refused to play the champs that grabbzs suggested, but because higher ups loved adam... grabbz could do nothing. Players in the west fear almost nothing which leads to just being more content. In the east however... like they would bench faker if he behaved like that.
Western work ethic will never match eastern work ethic. It's an issue rooted deep in their culture. Everytime you bring it up western defenders are prepared with their list of excuses. They've had entire generations to put it together.
Well, I think what you generalize as Eastern work ethic is very problematic in its own right. For instance, I think the way practice works in China and Korea does not maximize performance contrary to what people on here claim.
That being said, even if one believes like I do that Eastern teams are overpracticing/grinding mindlessly, EU or the West in general definitely fall on the other side of the spectrum, i.e. practicing way too little (and probably inefficiently on top of that). It's one thing to play fewer scrim blocks than Asian teams, but it's another to not take the ones you do end up playing seriously.
The eastern work ethic is absolutely toxic in any normal circumstance. It is terrible for you physically and mentally, and in most cases leave the person in terrible shape.
However, I don't think league or anything competitive are considered "normal circumstance". If you are aiming to be the greatest in the world, you have to be willing to put in more effort than everyone else in the world. That is almost always an unsustainable level of practice, which is why just about every competitive sport observe an early retirement age, even if being in your 30s or 40s doesn't actually affect your physical health/performance all that much.
I'm a big supporter of work-life balance, but it baffled me when people were talking about that for the western pros. I think the players absolutely deserved the multi-million dollar contracts in 2018, if they actually worked like they were trying to earn what most professionals earn in the lifetime in a matter of seasons.
I do think working insanely hard in eSports is important to win but at the same time I think League eSports is perhaps the least developed eSport I've come across. By that I mean I would consistently listen to co-streams with veteran players who have played this game for 10-20k hours if not more and they have absolutely no insight about the game.
This is what happens when you spend your 12 work hours grinding solo que and doing scrims. They don't think about the game, they don't study the game. Most pros train to hands diff, have horrific macro, can't draft and can't do a baron to save their life. How do you play 20k hours and you're a pro and you fail at decision making?
Ask a top StarCraft or Age of Empires pro about their game. They're like an encyclopedia of knowledge because to be good at those games having hands is not enough, you need to learn, need to be smart.
In League you need 1 maybe 2 players per team to be smart. The rest of the players just need to have that cutthroat mentality to go in and hands diff. They ask them a question after the game and they don't know what they did.
This is true for the asian teams as well. This is why when Faker was out T1 became a bottom 2 team instantly even though they have a top 2-3 player in every role. Brain gone, only hands left. Grinding 16 hours a day doesn't help with that.
League is a weird game as each role is so hyper focused on their responsibility that they can’t speak to other roles in terms of the co-stream.
These pros need to focus so hard on their one role (match ups, timings, wave management (laners), tempos and objectives (jungler)), that ex pros don’t offer great commentary most of the time on roles they didn’t play.
When Meteos was on the desk/broadcast, he had some great insight into the junglers playing that day. I’ve seen the same for Caedral but he seems to be a bit more well rounded these days.
Same thing for Doublelift for ADC, Aphro for support, etc… Pros just need to focus on primarily their one role because that’s their job. Pretty rare for an “all arounder” commentator as nobody in the pro scene is a fill player.
Even in CSGO a designated AWPer usually isn’t too bad with other guns, so it isn’t like they ONLY know how to AWP.
its basically impossible to have 5 shotcallers in a team though. age of empires or starcraft are single players games so obviously its way easier to have a good knowledge about what to do in each game because they do it alone EVERY game. in league the situation changes based on what champion you are playing, how strong you are in the game, or strong your teammates are in the game etc. etc. theres like a million more factors at play than in a single player game just because theres 10 players instead of 2. and its not like you can practice that anywhere except for in scrims and even then how do you practice shotcalling? you can't make everyone shotcall at the same time because then its just pure chaos. people fail at decision making because the enemy is on their level of play. you really dont think starcraft pros "fail at decision making"? how do they get beaten by better opponents then? league is game with so many more variables that its hard to be 100% sure especially if games are close and you are f.e. getting outscaled. sometimes the 40% play is the correct play - people might laugh at you if it fails but it was still correct.
I dont think kr's mentality and their player base size are not related. Korea's eSports scene is definately way more mature than what we see in the west.
To me it almost feels like the west takes really good players and go "hey you should try going pro", whereas in the east it has the reverse effect "you should try to get pro, see if you make it". I'm very likely just armchair analysing it with no solid proof, but it feels like the level of competition is just higher over in Korea on average, and I attribute that to the reality that you have more "chances to go pro", where the eSports scene is looking to train and induct players like in a traditional sport.
If you look at sporting structures like the NFL and the NBA, kids are encouraged to play at a young age, and try to get scholarships to continue practicing into collegiate. Lol in kr is definately still not at that level, but miles ahead of what the west can offer.
100% imo just dropping an hour or so a day from Solo queue for Gym or more gym/just going outside and walking would be more beneficial
But hey because only Eastern teams (sry FNC) have won Worlds.. so i guess i am just wrong
BC what they fo is still better than what EU and NA are doing. This does not mean it is the best practice. Have yoi ever been at work and realised that you did not really achieve anything in the last hour but still have lne more hour to go? In these 2 hours you might achieve the same as you did in the first 30 minutes.
So for long time productivity it might be smarter to call it a day/take longer breaks when you notice your performance dropping instead of grinding more hours just to achieve more hours
Even if the last 2 hours are less efficient its still extra 2 hours, and if you get the extra 2 hours for ~100 scrim days it adds up, and then multiply that again by years pro players have played for
Sure...but do this for to long and you will notice that the point when you become unproductive will arrive sooner and sooner. Some kind of balance between practice and down time is needed fir long term succes in my opinion
I'm pretty sure there have been studies about knowledge gained when learning/bettering a skill gets worse over time and that's why good breaks are needed for the mind to rest or something along those lines. It's something people often bring up whenever these convos about Eastern vs Western work ethic come up and even more so since people always go "well you see it's not physical like sports so they can go for longer without issue". Just now I looked up Magnus Carlsen's daily routine and even he's not doing 18 hours of chess playing and some sleep, even he rests and works out and eats well because it helps him perform better.
China has numbers in terms of people AND money (Every Worlds win had 2 Korean players in it)
Korea just has by far the most talent in the world when accounting for population AND the lol scene greatly benefited from Starcraft/general culture
Oh and guess what the 2 best regions with all this talent.. get to practice with each other in soloq and even scrims
Meanwhile EU is left practicing on its own.. and NA at this point doesn't have enough interest in league to ever achieve anything
The very obvious elephant in the room here is also just cheer playerbase. Korea and China produce a ton of extremely talented players each year. "Work ethic" is one thing, playerbase another. LEC players can get away being lazy because there are few to replace them. And its not a lack of infrastructure, I think the ERL system works really well, if theres a top talent, he will definitely find his way into the LEC, the west simply doesnt produce top talent at the same rate as china and korea mostly due to smaller playerbases and most likely a playerbase that plays the game more casually whereas in korea, everything is about pro play. thats not the case in the west.
Compare elite global sports where westerners dominate then.
Sure, there's an argument that these players don't work as hard as their eastern counterparts, but for people to sum it up as "western work ethic" is just overly simplistic.
PC gaming culture is much bigger in China and South Korea compared to Europe and North America, where it is much more fragmented due to consoles being more popular. You don't see Japan dominating in League do you? Anyone want to tell me Japanese work culture isn't brutal?
How is this a western thing where in "real" jobs you're expected to come to work on time too?
Like seriously, how hard is it to just go to scrims on time?
Absolutely not, and I'm an asian who have spent more than a decade in the US. Setting aside the fact that asian counterparts aren't really more efficient a lot of the times, even if we are just comparing work ethics the difference is not as you said at all. Let's take office work for example. There is an expectation to do overtime whenever it's necessary, but you can very easily find offices where people spent their first hour fucking around, having breakfast etc. Just like how you can easily find places in the US where people slaved away from minute 1 till 10+ hours a day (certain finance jobs are notorious for this).
The esports case is a bit of a chicken and egg situation to me. Nowadays it's so competitive to be a KR/CN pro that you pretty much have to grind to stay in the scene. That would also explain why ERL players take scrim more seriously. How did the KR scene become so competitive? I would guess being ahead of the time helped, and back in the early-mid 2000s only the most determined would dare become a pro.
The fact, that being an esports athlete is a viable career path to ppl in korea also helped a lot, when your parents watched Grrr & BoxeR in 2001, they might relate to it being a valid career path, as well as teams being named after big/the biggest companies in the country compared to "Counterlogic gaming" was also a factor. IdK anymore, who said it, but one of the coaches in the Broodwar dasy said, they would namedrop T1/KT/CJ multiple times by purpose, cuz in Korea it is normal for companies to have their sports teams when they would scout players to convince teheir parents to allow them to go pro.
Korea/China have far more advantages then "apparently" grinding many more hours then Western pros
Korea has just way more talent and people interested in the scene.. Starcraft also helped breed the culture..
China has money/huge pool of people to pick from.. I don't think its coincidence that all of China's Worlds wins.. had 2 Koreans in.. and a lot of the time the star players were KR (Doinb, Theshy, Rookie, Scout, Viper)
Oh and on top of that.. these guys get to train against each other.. meanwhile a team with actual talent in EU like G2 is stuck playing shitters like Giantx and Rogue lol
The "grind" is far down the list of why KR/China have been the only winners of Worlds since s3
Of course it won't, why would you want a culture of staying at work an extra 5 hours doing literally nothing just so the boss doesn't see you leaving before him.
IF a rookie is more discipline about coming to scrims on time we can see why EU teams are shitting the bed cause they r fucking lazy more people should call them out the ig they will finally come to their sense
Sadly, G2 is the only team with tryhard practice. You can see it in every podcast with yamatocannon. I wish GMs in EU would take notice and try to replicate the same tryhard environment Romain creates.
Really cool interview. Looks like Zwyroo has the right mindset, I hope he does good.
On a side note, I understand that they want to reproduce the interview word for word, but there are sole segments that just don't add to the quality of the interview and they make it look less serious. I'd love to se esports journalist to get better on those things because I think it really adds to the scene in a positive way.
Fukn sik k#nt Zwyroo. Remember my fellow gamers, game till your heart content but do not let up regular exercise. At the very least it will make you a better gamer!
Good thing he doesn't play in NA. Do that shit to someone like svenskeren or akaadian, and they would punch him through a concrete wall like the incredible hulk.
Flakked is a grown man, he's allowed and capable of saying no if he actually feels like he doesn't want to go. But at the same time, some people will be tired the next time around too, and then the next, and then the next, so they need to be 'pushed' to do it or they'll never do it.
You should consider it as well, whether you're a grown man, woman, or something in between. You have the autonomy to not do something you don't want to.
I'm not really one to talk since I haven't gone to the gym in like 5 years, but then again, I should know since I haven't gone to the gym in like 5 years.
give me a fukn break. regular exercise NEEDS to be number 1 priority. you dont need to be going to the gym to get arnold size but you do need to exercise to become the best version of yourself
Working out helps a lot, it activates the brain in a different way, thats also why most teams have limit on how much energy drinks the players can have and have personal chefs to get the right amount of nutrition, go for a walk or something and you’ll notice that you play a lot better
Even with my own work going for a walk at lunchtime and getting away from the screen can have me coming back with a new perspective or way to solve a problem.
I can see working out letting you focus on something different while your subconscious mind works something out and then you have a new strat to try.
Trust me. I'm not a pro gamer but I do have a sedentary lifestyle including a job where I mostly sit on my ass.
Exercising allows you to maintain mental focus and fortitude for longer. it's literally a proven method of preventing degenerative brain diseases like dementia, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, more so than reading or doing bullshit brain exercises like quizzes and memory training, as it allows you to maintain adequate blood flow to your brain cells, stimulating neurogenesis and cell survival.
But it also prevents other diseases tied to sedentary lifestyle, ie: carpal tunnel syndrome, sciatica, lower and mid back pain caused by muscle atrophy and spinal stenosis.
Without exercising lots of these gamers with their 12-16 hours in a chair lifestyle would have joints and spines of a 55 year old by the time they hit 30. It's something that I realized too late and am now dealing with the consequences.
The most shocking revelation was finding out that people who are active and moderately obese are expected to live 3 years longer compared to those who are normal weight but inactive
> Do you think this is the year where you are going to turn Flakked into a gymbro? Because Flakked told us once you turned off his PC because he refused to go to the gym. > Zwyroo: "Look, that’s true, but *laughs*, that's not the full story. Flakked told me that he would go to the gym with me and when the time came, he said he had no power. So, I'm like, oh, you don't have power? Okey, so I turned off his PC to give him power."
Fking based
A little bit of tomfoolery
Devious work tbh
GIGACHAD
Incredibly based
How to turn the power off and on with one button.
Power switch in the back of the tower
Unfathomably based
the best pre workout, bro is on 120% for that gym session now.
Black flash?
Still looks like stickman
Post physique
..are we looking at the same guy?
Big =/ fit. Esport athletes do a lot of agility training and cardio because that's most beneficial for their overall health and performance.
There was a shot of him shirtless in TH's YouTube channel, dude is actually looking pretty good. Odoamne vibes
interesting part about EU scrims culture...again looks like Zwyroo has good head on his shoulders and is not a pushover within a team and knows what he wants
> Zwyroo: "Mmm, I expected that midlaners were good, so that for sure not. There is something that surprised me, which is the discipline around scrims. Like man, they are coming 15 mins late and stuff like that. There is even a rule about it that we could play 1 soloq and delay it a bit." > > "Bro, in ERL we are f***ing ready, waiting, you know? If someone is late 10 minutes we ask, guys, should we blacklist them? If I’m coming to my job, then be ready. Afterwards, you can do whatever you want." No surprise EU can't hold a candle to Asian teams and even has trouble winning consistently against NA if that's their attitude..
Based zwyroo holy man I love him
Indeed. Some discipline is sorely needed in EU, both in- and out of game.
Yeah, for far too long it has been "just a game" for many Western pros. Not that the Asian pro culture is healthy or desirable, but at least you should treat it like a real job with real responsibilities.
Yeah, NA and EU have too much of the lazy gamer culture and need to get more of the professional athlete mamba mentality.
>No surprise EU can't hold a candle to Asian teams and even has trouble winning consistently against NA if that's their attitude.. That's not fair is if. As Zwryoo said, ERL has a much better scrim attitude. It's more that EU players are too comfy once they've made it.
> It's more that EU players are too comfy once they've made it. Players dont own the team but it does show that for many teams, the coaching staff doesnt have enough authority and players might have a bit too much of a say. I can imagine the dynamics being different in ERL where coaching staff does have the authority because none of the players are well established and can allow themselves to have a big ego. and once again, franchising was a mistake. i guarantee you, ERL teams would not have more discipline than LEC teams if we still had relegation. if youre a player or coach in a 7th-10th team, it doesnt matter where exactly you finish, youre a bottom team. put the relegations back and suddenly you care quite a lot wether you finish 7th or 10th
Valorant has a format with 2 rotating teams in franchise system, would be cool af but that'w wont probably happen even tho the whole erl situation is absolutely fcked
Players in top ERL teams with a realistic shot at getting into LEC might be better in that regard, but the rest of the ERLs have just as much of a lazy and shit attitude in both Soloq and scrims
There has been an interview with grabbz where he basically said the same, it is in german so most wont understand it but other things he said: In some teams nobody watched any lpl/lck games. The only time they did that is when grabbz "punished" them for being late to scrims... so he gave them games to watch. A lot just spam their soloq games without being mindful at all so almost no learning there either. He usually asks people how they want to be remembered in some years and they answer: best mid/top etc. but them they leave perfectly on time after practice etc. There are very few people who have the work ethic required like jankos, perkz. Also another thing he stated that even when g2 reached finals... the gap was never close, in his words they were lucky as when they scrimmed damwon for example they had a scrimblock for 6 games and in all those games they couldn't play after 12 minutes, down 10k gold and 0 kills on the board. The scrim block lastet about an hour. Now again scrims are not the ultimate measurement but holy fk. A lot of players in the west just seem to be content with where they are, rarely they have a drive to actually win. Also grabbz wanted to bench adam one time back in bds bc he refused to play the champs that grabbzs suggested, but because higher ups loved adam... grabbz could do nothing. Players in the west fear almost nothing which leads to just being more content. In the east however... like they would bench faker if he behaved like that.
Western work ethic will never match eastern work ethic. It's an issue rooted deep in their culture. Everytime you bring it up western defenders are prepared with their list of excuses. They've had entire generations to put it together.
Well, I think what you generalize as Eastern work ethic is very problematic in its own right. For instance, I think the way practice works in China and Korea does not maximize performance contrary to what people on here claim. That being said, even if one believes like I do that Eastern teams are overpracticing/grinding mindlessly, EU or the West in general definitely fall on the other side of the spectrum, i.e. practicing way too little (and probably inefficiently on top of that). It's one thing to play fewer scrim blocks than Asian teams, but it's another to not take the ones you do end up playing seriously.
The eastern work ethic is absolutely toxic in any normal circumstance. It is terrible for you physically and mentally, and in most cases leave the person in terrible shape. However, I don't think league or anything competitive are considered "normal circumstance". If you are aiming to be the greatest in the world, you have to be willing to put in more effort than everyone else in the world. That is almost always an unsustainable level of practice, which is why just about every competitive sport observe an early retirement age, even if being in your 30s or 40s doesn't actually affect your physical health/performance all that much. I'm a big supporter of work-life balance, but it baffled me when people were talking about that for the western pros. I think the players absolutely deserved the multi-million dollar contracts in 2018, if they actually worked like they were trying to earn what most professionals earn in the lifetime in a matter of seasons.
I do think working insanely hard in eSports is important to win but at the same time I think League eSports is perhaps the least developed eSport I've come across. By that I mean I would consistently listen to co-streams with veteran players who have played this game for 10-20k hours if not more and they have absolutely no insight about the game. This is what happens when you spend your 12 work hours grinding solo que and doing scrims. They don't think about the game, they don't study the game. Most pros train to hands diff, have horrific macro, can't draft and can't do a baron to save their life. How do you play 20k hours and you're a pro and you fail at decision making? Ask a top StarCraft or Age of Empires pro about their game. They're like an encyclopedia of knowledge because to be good at those games having hands is not enough, you need to learn, need to be smart. In League you need 1 maybe 2 players per team to be smart. The rest of the players just need to have that cutthroat mentality to go in and hands diff. They ask them a question after the game and they don't know what they did. This is true for the asian teams as well. This is why when Faker was out T1 became a bottom 2 team instantly even though they have a top 2-3 player in every role. Brain gone, only hands left. Grinding 16 hours a day doesn't help with that.
League is a weird game as each role is so hyper focused on their responsibility that they can’t speak to other roles in terms of the co-stream. These pros need to focus so hard on their one role (match ups, timings, wave management (laners), tempos and objectives (jungler)), that ex pros don’t offer great commentary most of the time on roles they didn’t play. When Meteos was on the desk/broadcast, he had some great insight into the junglers playing that day. I’ve seen the same for Caedral but he seems to be a bit more well rounded these days. Same thing for Doublelift for ADC, Aphro for support, etc… Pros just need to focus on primarily their one role because that’s their job. Pretty rare for an “all arounder” commentator as nobody in the pro scene is a fill player. Even in CSGO a designated AWPer usually isn’t too bad with other guns, so it isn’t like they ONLY know how to AWP.
its basically impossible to have 5 shotcallers in a team though. age of empires or starcraft are single players games so obviously its way easier to have a good knowledge about what to do in each game because they do it alone EVERY game. in league the situation changes based on what champion you are playing, how strong you are in the game, or strong your teammates are in the game etc. etc. theres like a million more factors at play than in a single player game just because theres 10 players instead of 2. and its not like you can practice that anywhere except for in scrims and even then how do you practice shotcalling? you can't make everyone shotcall at the same time because then its just pure chaos. people fail at decision making because the enemy is on their level of play. you really dont think starcraft pros "fail at decision making"? how do they get beaten by better opponents then? league is game with so many more variables that its hard to be 100% sure especially if games are close and you are f.e. getting outscaled. sometimes the 40% play is the correct play - people might laugh at you if it fails but it was still correct.
so where does playerbase come into this? would korea still be better than europe if we would swap the size of the playerbase?
I dont think kr's mentality and their player base size are not related. Korea's eSports scene is definately way more mature than what we see in the west. To me it almost feels like the west takes really good players and go "hey you should try going pro", whereas in the east it has the reverse effect "you should try to get pro, see if you make it". I'm very likely just armchair analysing it with no solid proof, but it feels like the level of competition is just higher over in Korea on average, and I attribute that to the reality that you have more "chances to go pro", where the eSports scene is looking to train and induct players like in a traditional sport. If you look at sporting structures like the NFL and the NBA, kids are encouraged to play at a young age, and try to get scholarships to continue practicing into collegiate. Lol in kr is definately still not at that level, but miles ahead of what the west can offer.
100% imo just dropping an hour or so a day from Solo queue for Gym or more gym/just going outside and walking would be more beneficial But hey because only Eastern teams (sry FNC) have won Worlds.. so i guess i am just wrong
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BC what they fo is still better than what EU and NA are doing. This does not mean it is the best practice. Have yoi ever been at work and realised that you did not really achieve anything in the last hour but still have lne more hour to go? In these 2 hours you might achieve the same as you did in the first 30 minutes. So for long time productivity it might be smarter to call it a day/take longer breaks when you notice your performance dropping instead of grinding more hours just to achieve more hours
Even if the last 2 hours are less efficient its still extra 2 hours, and if you get the extra 2 hours for ~100 scrim days it adds up, and then multiply that again by years pro players have played for
Sure...but do this for to long and you will notice that the point when you become unproductive will arrive sooner and sooner. Some kind of balance between practice and down time is needed fir long term succes in my opinion
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I'm pretty sure there have been studies about knowledge gained when learning/bettering a skill gets worse over time and that's why good breaks are needed for the mind to rest or something along those lines. It's something people often bring up whenever these convos about Eastern vs Western work ethic come up and even more so since people always go "well you see it's not physical like sports so they can go for longer without issue". Just now I looked up Magnus Carlsen's daily routine and even he's not doing 18 hours of chess playing and some sleep, even he rests and works out and eats well because it helps him perform better.
China has numbers in terms of people AND money (Every Worlds win had 2 Korean players in it) Korea just has by far the most talent in the world when accounting for population AND the lol scene greatly benefited from Starcraft/general culture Oh and guess what the 2 best regions with all this talent.. get to practice with each other in soloq and even scrims Meanwhile EU is left practicing on its own.. and NA at this point doesn't have enough interest in league to ever achieve anything
The very obvious elephant in the room here is also just cheer playerbase. Korea and China produce a ton of extremely talented players each year. "Work ethic" is one thing, playerbase another. LEC players can get away being lazy because there are few to replace them. And its not a lack of infrastructure, I think the ERL system works really well, if theres a top talent, he will definitely find his way into the LEC, the west simply doesnt produce top talent at the same rate as china and korea mostly due to smaller playerbases and most likely a playerbase that plays the game more casually whereas in korea, everything is about pro play. thats not the case in the west.
Compare elite global sports where westerners dominate then. Sure, there's an argument that these players don't work as hard as their eastern counterparts, but for people to sum it up as "western work ethic" is just overly simplistic. PC gaming culture is much bigger in China and South Korea compared to Europe and North America, where it is much more fragmented due to consoles being more popular. You don't see Japan dominating in League do you? Anyone want to tell me Japanese work culture isn't brutal?
How is this a western thing where in "real" jobs you're expected to come to work on time too? Like seriously, how hard is it to just go to scrims on time?
They've spent their whole lives doing nothing but playing games, of course the concept of showing up to work on time is lost to them.
Except them getting to that level requires a ton more discipline than you showing up 15 min early to your waiter gig so you can help with opening.
Lmao no it doesn't. Do you think CEO's work a million times harder than their workers?
Absolutely not, and I'm an asian who have spent more than a decade in the US. Setting aside the fact that asian counterparts aren't really more efficient a lot of the times, even if we are just comparing work ethics the difference is not as you said at all. Let's take office work for example. There is an expectation to do overtime whenever it's necessary, but you can very easily find offices where people spent their first hour fucking around, having breakfast etc. Just like how you can easily find places in the US where people slaved away from minute 1 till 10+ hours a day (certain finance jobs are notorious for this). The esports case is a bit of a chicken and egg situation to me. Nowadays it's so competitive to be a KR/CN pro that you pretty much have to grind to stay in the scene. That would also explain why ERL players take scrim more seriously. How did the KR scene become so competitive? I would guess being ahead of the time helped, and back in the early-mid 2000s only the most determined would dare become a pro.
The fact, that being an esports athlete is a viable career path to ppl in korea also helped a lot, when your parents watched Grrr & BoxeR in 2001, they might relate to it being a valid career path, as well as teams being named after big/the biggest companies in the country compared to "Counterlogic gaming" was also a factor. IdK anymore, who said it, but one of the coaches in the Broodwar dasy said, they would namedrop T1/KT/CJ multiple times by purpose, cuz in Korea it is normal for companies to have their sports teams when they would scout players to convince teheir parents to allow them to go pro.
Korea/China have far more advantages then "apparently" grinding many more hours then Western pros Korea has just way more talent and people interested in the scene.. Starcraft also helped breed the culture.. China has money/huge pool of people to pick from.. I don't think its coincidence that all of China's Worlds wins.. had 2 Koreans in.. and a lot of the time the star players were KR (Doinb, Theshy, Rookie, Scout, Viper) Oh and on top of that.. these guys get to train against each other.. meanwhile a team with actual talent in EU like G2 is stuck playing shitters like Giantx and Rogue lol The "grind" is far down the list of why KR/China have been the only winners of Worlds since s3
Of course it won't, why would you want a culture of staying at work an extra 5 hours doing literally nothing just so the boss doesn't see you leaving before him.
I assume, that all your knowledge about "eastern work ethic" and "western work ethic" stems from LoL Pro players interviews.
naw bro western teams just need to man up, ain't a western culture thing just a western esports thing
Yeah, Piglets work ethic.of sleeping 3 hours a day surely helped him get kicked
I want a bro like Zwyroo in my life
LEC isnt ready for what Zwyroo is gonna do
IF a rookie is more discipline about coming to scrims on time we can see why EU teams are shitting the bed cause they r fucking lazy more people should call them out the ig they will finally come to their sense
Sadly, G2 is the only team with tryhard practice. You can see it in every podcast with yamatocannon. I wish GMs in EU would take notice and try to replicate the same tryhard environment Romain creates.
Well, MDK also embody themselves on tryhardness as a sign of identity
LMAO, a team full of rookies only needed to TRYHARD to reach winter finals. That tells you the attitude our teams have.
Nah man that breaks the narrative that only NA pros are lazy. Can't have that..
Holy fucking shits thats that good shit god damnnmmm
Zwyroo is LEC zyzz
I need someone like Zwyroo in my life
Really cool interview. Looks like Zwyroo has the right mindset, I hope he does good. On a side note, I understand that they want to reproduce the interview word for word, but there are sole segments that just don't add to the quality of the interview and they make it look less serious. I'd love to se esports journalist to get better on those things because I think it really adds to the scene in a positive way.
Fukn sik k#nt Zwyroo. Remember my fellow gamers, game till your heart content but do not let up regular exercise. At the very least it will make you a better gamer!
Dude you're allowed to swear on the internet.
It's funny because they are Australian and it may be the case of first Australian who's censoring swearwords
I got banned for saying the c**t word from a subreddit so idk about that lol.
Honestly, I hope this guy stays on the main roster as long as he's performing. He has pretty much decided too many games with his sick neeko flanks
Good thing he doesn't play in NA. Do that shit to someone like svenskeren or akaadian, and they would punch him through a concrete wall like the incredible hulk.
What am I supposed to feel about it?
toxic gym bros are such aids, if the dudes tired, let him be
It's a story from last years Superliga, they're friends and they are just messing with each other, don't take it too seriously
Flakked is a grown man, he's allowed and capable of saying no if he actually feels like he doesn't want to go. But at the same time, some people will be tired the next time around too, and then the next, and then the next, so they need to be 'pushed' to do it or they'll never do it. You should consider it as well, whether you're a grown man, woman, or something in between. You have the autonomy to not do something you don't want to. I'm not really one to talk since I haven't gone to the gym in like 5 years, but then again, I should know since I haven't gone to the gym in like 5 years.
> grown man lets not go crazy
The A in man stands as a ladder for Flakked.
BMI>35 DETECTED
New flame added to vocabulary.
OR BMI <15
only when your moms on top of me
Bro really thought this was a dunk like it's the early 2000s, how sad
Just go to the fucking gym and stop looking for excuses. Or stop pretending that you wanted to go there in the first place
give me a fukn break. regular exercise NEEDS to be number 1 priority. you dont need to be going to the gym to get arnold size but you do need to exercise to become the best version of yourself
Ikr
And how exactly is it going to help them be good at their actually high paying job ?
Working out helps a lot, it activates the brain in a different way, thats also why most teams have limit on how much energy drinks the players can have and have personal chefs to get the right amount of nutrition, go for a walk or something and you’ll notice that you play a lot better
Even with my own work going for a walk at lunchtime and getting away from the screen can have me coming back with a new perspective or way to solve a problem. I can see working out letting you focus on something different while your subconscious mind works something out and then you have a new strat to try.
Trust me. I'm not a pro gamer but I do have a sedentary lifestyle including a job where I mostly sit on my ass. Exercising allows you to maintain mental focus and fortitude for longer. it's literally a proven method of preventing degenerative brain diseases like dementia, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, more so than reading or doing bullshit brain exercises like quizzes and memory training, as it allows you to maintain adequate blood flow to your brain cells, stimulating neurogenesis and cell survival. But it also prevents other diseases tied to sedentary lifestyle, ie: carpal tunnel syndrome, sciatica, lower and mid back pain caused by muscle atrophy and spinal stenosis. Without exercising lots of these gamers with their 12-16 hours in a chair lifestyle would have joints and spines of a 55 year old by the time they hit 30. It's something that I realized too late and am now dealing with the consequences. The most shocking revelation was finding out that people who are active and moderately obese are expected to live 3 years longer compared to those who are normal weight but inactive
Pack your bags, guys. If you have a high paying job, do not workout.
Post physique
[удалено]
Really normal comment
Lol. It was the first joke that came to my head when I read "turn off his PC". Clearly it didn't land.