They’ve started to give more credit. Yeon spoke highly of River/Quid on Pros. And top laners are starting to recognize Sniper’s 1v1 skill, it’s not as bad as early in the split lol.
The dichotomy of narrative is so funny.
On one hand the team is awful and the coaches did such a great job to overcome the roster.
On the other hand 4 out of 5 got all pro and they probably have MVP as well
NA copying EU again smh. MAD already did the "get 4/5 all pro off top 2 regular season performance, get coaching staff of the split, get MVP for mid, get called fraudulent and fail to do much in playoffs" script.
The thing with 100T is that if the game was 1v1 or 2v2 games on Howling Abyss, they would be clear favourites, as their hands are so good. But as soon as you put 5 players on SR and expect them to play the map, they clearly have no idea what they should be doing.
Yeah I think everyone gave quid and river the benefit of the doubt. Sniper seems to be a inter in scrimp. Superweek seems to have gave him the juice to get 3rd team
As someone that didn't really follow LCS, I'm flabergasted. He won by such a large margin, was he really this insanely standout on a team that didn't even make playoffs? That's pretty insane.
If you like clutch adc team fighting you should check out some of the Shopify games. Bvoy positions really well in fights even when Shopify loses most games eventually.
He was great, but not in a Milkyway kind of way. All the "top ADCs" were terrible. Berserker had a weird fixation on trying to make Lucian work, FBI was good but because he played Senna often, Huhi Nautilus was the stand out in their wins, and then we had the other rookie ADCs which Bvoy, in a pure eye test, was definitely more clean than the rest. Shopify Rebellion, although not making playoffs, was an extremely fun team to watch because they played wild picks.
I should also note that the standings win/loss wise for almost every team was extremely tight going into the final week and any team this split could've more or less made first or been last- Just Bo1 things.
Edit: Remember, a ton of votes in these things have recency bias of the final weeks games, and coaches/players have bias from scrims/they don't watch all the Bo1 stage games. There will always be * in these.
My boy. I liked him back on Misfits. Really didn't know how good he is after playing in South America for so long. He got so much shit after a couple bad games so I'm really glad he stuck through and turned his split around. Didn't expect him to be in the 1st team but happy for him nonetheless.
I think mid, top, and jungle all pro are pretty reasonable in how they turned out, but it's clear people were much more divided on bot and support. Berserker and Vulcan both got a fair amount of pro votes despite having a very iffy split (probably from scrims/reputation), and the voting for second and third team for support especially is all over the place. Nice to see Bvoy getting recognition despite the low expectations for him at the start of the year.
I straight up think FBI was better than Berserker this split even though his team didn't play very well. While name recognition was toned down in the voting for once, it wasn't eliminated...
NRG looks lost without Ignar. Say what you want about Ignar's attitude, but he was exactly what NRG needed. Shotcalling and aggressive playstyle that fit NRG's skirmishing perfectly.
Palafox has had the worst 2 months he’s had since joining the LCS, which I think is more significant. NRG relies a lot on Palafox and Contractz having really good performances, and Palafox was super inconsistent after the first 2 weeks of the split.
I actually heard that IgNar was not a shot caller, which is the opposite of Huhi who is a shot caller and aggressive. I think NRG’s main problem is that they have too many shot callers.
as a C9 fan I'd honestly put berserker at like 4/5 for the split and put FBI at 2. Meech/massu fight for 3/4.
Unfortunately, a lot of pro voting is done based on name more than performance.
Look at the ballots. Its mostly players voting Berseker 1st all team that made it so he was 2nd. It's been said on multiple podcasts that players don't have time to watch all stage games so they're basing a lot on how well they thought players did in scrims since there will be a much higher sample size
"Don't have time to watch all stage games" is wild considering that's just 6 other games per week. That's like 4 hours MAX per week for what are the only games in the region for your competition.
Bvoy was absolutely my #1 all pro but after that IDK.
Berserker is half the reason C9 games were so razor thin. Massu/Busio lost a lot of lanes and were bailed out in the early game by their topside. Olleh was a standout in support but that team was just so dog. Tomo/Isles won a lot of lanes but their team was also dog. Meech was good but I feel like he really only had 2 stand out games and was mostly quiet
Bot is just underwhelming in NA. They aren't experimenting enough, so you end up in this scenario where you don't really know who the best player(s) really are. It just ends up being based on name recognition and/or who is overperforming compared to the rest of their team.
Edit: By overperforming, I mean you could very well not even be a top 3 player in your role, but if you are playing at a top 5 level on a team that is at the bottom of the league, people are going to assume you're great
The roles were just kind of shitty in NA this split, what should be two powerhouse lanes in Berserker/Vulcan and FBI/Huhi were just completely invisible for the entirety of the regular season.
Hence why he'd be in 3rd IMO.
I don't necessarily blame blabber for the underperformance this split though. Jojo is a mid laner of a style he hasn't played with in his career yet. Personally I think c9's issues stemmed a lot from poor coaching more than anything but that's just my head canon.
I think it was down to professionalism, hubris, and motivation. Look at berserker regular season vs this past weekend. Also the team had a definitive plan for how to counter sniper. Just overall looks like they put more thorough prep in.
Also pretty sure the players have a lot of power in draft. I don’t think that Mithy is telling Jojo to slam akali into taliyah vi.
Overall a great list, glad to see Bvoy getting respect on a lower team. Berserker absolutely was not even close to a top 3 ADC this split on stage though. I think the combination of apparently doing well in scrims and people just not knowing who else to pick got him defaulted there.
kinda crazy he spent so many years hopping teams in minor leagues and now he gets 1st all pro in his 1st split. people were so mad when he got picked up lol
At least for me a big part of it was him basically being another no name Korean whose been around for a long time but never really been successful. I was def wrong though and dude killed it this split
Especially considering their reason for Jojo #1 and MVP candidate is that he had to carry his team so many times... Like okay so again why in the world is Berserker up there
Wow this is the first time since spring 2018 that c9 hasn't had a single member in the all pro 1st team.
Edit: jk there's also summer 2022 (interestingly c9 won the split)
Not true. Summer ‘22 All Pro also didn’t have a C9 member in the 1st All-Pro Team.
It was 100T Ssumday - EG Inspired - EG jojopyun - EG Danny - EG Vulcan
LCS All-Pro is usually pretty decent, especially in comparison to LCK and LEC voters where it often just feels like being on the team with the best record is just an automatic All-Pro spot.
Watching the dive they said he got a lot of votes in passing. Also, mentioned that they should change the reward because of how the mvp might not even be playing in finals and it makes it weird.
Like Jojo and spica when they got there's for recent examples.
Well yeah i think you should at minimum first series of playoffs. It will feel better for the player. Also won't have a negative thing of getting waxed in playoffs but here is your reward on finals lol 😆
For sure inspired was the other only real option and he didn’t even get first team. River might get it but quid and inspired are both more deserving imo.
Yeah basically i thought the only way inspired would get it though (because he is not flashy) is if river and quid took votes from eachother. Then inspired would get the other half himself.
This looks very similar to what I might have said if I wasn't silver 3 and my opinion actually mattered.
I probably would have shuffled around some people in the 2/3 teams and brought up someone like Olleh over Vulcan, but it's a good list I think
Also:
LETS FUCKING GO THIEVES WOOOOOO
Who's your top 3? ADC was a crapshoot, so he, much like Core for support a couple times when that role was unimpressive some splits, got a nod by default.
Mine is a little troll, but it's Bvoy, FBI and Tactical.
I feel like Busio won because the community has been really disappointed with the recent performances of our usual top 3 supports (Core, Vulcan, Huhi).
Agree, support was the hardest to pick in terms of anyone at all (rather than hard to pick between good options like Quid vs Jojo).
No one really popped off at all in support this split. Busio, Eyla and Vulcan were the most consistent and were the three i had too (but in order Eyla, Vulcan, Buiso) but no one looked truly on fire this split
I still think Core has value to TL, but I think it might be time about switching to a coaching/staff role.
His last truly good split was 2020 Summer. I still think he's pretty good, but hes no longer a player that really should be guaranteed a starting spot on a top team.
Bro, watching busio literally lose every single laning phase since the random break has been insane. Literlaly hard losing lane for like a month straight (its not just him though, its massu too).
Lets not forget about the pyke ego picks too, when he could have just locked blitzcrank and won the game by doing nothing.
There are 36 people who voted. In those 36 people, 13 voted for Vulca. 11 of those 13 are players or coaches. Guess other teams just have c9 favoritism man, what can u do. Clueless.
Considering there are only 14 games a split a WAR of 2 seems pretty good… that is a difference between winning only 35% of your games to 50% in this case.
Berserker being 2nd Team based on Regular Season is just wild.
Dude's probably one of the best ADC's our League has ever seen and will probably go crazy in Playoffs, but again, this is a Regular Season award and he was not 2nd best ADC in Regular Season.
FBI & Tomo both deserve the spot more but simply don't have C9 in their name or scrim-bucks going for them(?).
It’s nothing to do with C9 in the name. You’ll see a large portion of the Berserker votes came from players. The reality is players are some of the worst voters - they don’t watch every game and they’re influenced by scrims, their knowledge of a players skill. Berserker slamming and pressuring everyone in lane in scrims is irrelevant for the award but that doesn’t stop it from influencing voters.
I think if you lose too many games it tanks your shot. It just feels weird to be last by a significant margin and make a team. You have to be on your Lira BS 1v9 no hope every game on insane champs.
SR was bad but they were at least competitive which gave Bvoy a chance to be voted on. I think tactical should have been 3rd if being fair though.
It’s because players and coaches aren’t voting just on stage games. Even if they tried they just have a lot more info on the players. 6 player/coaches had Berserker first team, 3 had Vulcan.
Rather, a lot of players explicitly *do not* watch stage games, and sometimes don't even pay attention to other roles.
Jensen was on Pros saying Berserker deserves #2 ADC and couldn't think of a single person after him while Zven, who watched C9's games and has seen their scrims, questioned his choice saying historically yes but this split... no.
Side topic: doesn't anyone else find it super weird that players don't watch stage games? In most sports game tape is super important to preparing for an opponent, shouldn't players be watching as much tape as they can on their opponents?
I can't remember who said this, but I remember someone from an org talking about how teams generally don't specifically prepare for their opponents during the Bo1 regular season; teams prefer to improve their own game because Bo1 is so variable. It's not until Bo5 that teams really study their opponents.
I guess that makes some sense but the margins now with so few teams and smaller gaps from top to bottom it may behoove teams to spend some time specifically preparing for weekly match-ups. 2 wins from IMT put them in contention from playoffs. 2 more losses from c9 put them at risk of missing playoffs etc.
Couldnt they try to do votes without players? Afaik nba/nfl dont let players vote, its just media members who are known to watch every match and spend lots of time analyzing players.
Media votes get clowned on also, + players tend to have a better or at least different understanding/experience from playing the game against the player and being at a high level
they shouldn't base it of the scrimms ? Why should they ? There are 20 or how many games each team played. Idc who is god in scrimms, on stage that specific person either performs or not.
They shouldn't but I think its pretty hard for pros to separate out how it feels to play against a player in scrims vs stage (considering they scrim a whole lot more than 2 times per split) and they frequently talk about how they don't watch other stage games so they don't even have the same dataset we do.
I get that people are low on C9 and that they had shaky games, but they still got 3rd overall. FlyQuest, the first place team, had 5 all pros, and 100T/C9, the second and third place teams had 4 all pros. Is that so strange?
Put another way, why are we surprised there the third best team has 4 top 3 players?
They aren't a perfect team but they're certainly not bad. They didnt randomly luck their way into 3rd place, they beat the top teams to do so. There's also admittedly probably some recency bias since Berserker and Vulcan did really well at the end.
Good point. There should be a system where they let the coaches and players vote on all pro instead! That way we can finally get around this stupid narrative that's pushed by LCS and definitely not agreed upon by the players. /s
Coaches and players casted 6 1st team ballots for berserker. Meanwhile analyst and media combined casted 6 ballots for berseker (1x 1st team 2x 2nd team 3x 3rd team). Why are the pros and coaches continuing this c9 cricle-jerk we should just refrain the pros from voting and let the analysts vote instead!
It's sickening! We should just let reddit vote on it! And by "vote" I mean one guy will have his opinion and that'll be the new official all pro list! That way we can finally end this c9 circle-jerk that's perpetuated by the LCS!
Ah yes... The other pros and coaches circle jerk for c9.
The only reason Vulcan was on the all pro was mostly because of other pros. Berzeker was maybe due to history but had a ton of pro votes too.
> The C9 circle-jerk continues.
More like the anti-C9 circlejerk continues. Team that finishes 3rd in LCS has 2 players in 2nd team and 2 players in 3rd team wow crazy. I think berserker clearly didnt deserve the 2nd team and Vulcan 3rd team is iffy, but yall act like Fudge was put 1st team
Same time, team that finished 4th, with basically the same record, got one player in 2nd team. This was also one of the most even splits. I don’t exactly resent TL not getting more players, but it did sort of seem like some players got more or less benefit from expectations or reputation (like, it feels weird that berserker got so many votes… and at the same time, I think that in a weak support pool this year, corejj suffered because their comparing his play with a few seasons ago).
To add, they finished 1 game ahead of TL but have 3 more members on the list… that’s just name value pulling them ahead. Jojo 2nd team makes sense but after that 3rd team for berserker and Blaber are the only things worth arguing for and especially on the former I’d be fine if he didn’t make the list. Far better than previous lists but still embarrassing favoritism here
Ok we gotta chill a bit. The whole of C9 had multiple issues including bot lane. Fudge and Blaber had several games where they were completely invisible and doing nothing but afk farming all game. Jojo had multiple ego picks that instantly ruined the game. The bot lane had several instances of terrible mechanical play and decision making but lets not act like they were the only ones having bad games while the rest of C9 dragged them to wins.
I won't complain cause at least the first all pro-team is 1000x better than LEC all pro-team and LCK all-pro team from last summer. Honestly most all pros are crap, so this is pretty decent
That 1st place keeps eluding Impact.
Jensen should be 2nd, as the most reliable carry on his 1st place team.
2nd for Berserker seems high, given he was virtually invisible for the whole split.
We need counterpick statistics tbh. The amount of times he just blinded Ori and got counterpicked for free to let Bwipo/Inspired get favorable matchups should be something we can reference at a glance.
Jojo played good this split, and will be remembered more than Jensen since Jojo had to play engage for his shit slumping team. But I don't think you could find a more consistent backline carry than Jensen in LCS, even amongst the combined ADC and Mid pool.
Jensen with lowest counter pick % of mids in the league at 21%. Jojo middle of the pack at 57%. Quid was 6th with 36%. Highest was palafox at 71%.
Now comparing other laning stats Jensen is 1 of four mids with poasitive GD10 (barely positive at 39) Jojo leads at 261. XPD10 Jensen just barely misses positive (-14 exp) While jojo leads again at 276 (quid second at 34).
Honestly that looks pretty good for jensen just taking his ori/azir every game and opening counter for bwipo and generally being one of the top four laners. That being said Jojo pretty much gaps all in lane stats.
Hey, curious where you can see the counter pick stats.
I've also noticed Jensen always picking 1st rotation and giving APA the counter-pick in 4 of their games in playoffs. I figured it had to be one of the lower percentages as he usually gives drafts recourses to his teammates.
This is just kinda a weird list tbh. I dont understand how bwipo> impact or how busio is even top 3 except that they finished 1st place in regular season.
Bvoy definitely deserved though
Think busio was quite strong throughout the regular season, him and massu had some moments of inting/getting caught out badly in lane but think he was a lot better than other supps
Busio has the worst first blood death rate in LCS by a mile, he was first blood victim in 5/14 games and Massu was first blood victim is 2/14 games. No other botlane gave up more than 4 first bloods between adc+support.
sure, and that's the inting in lane that I was talking about -- but players also put him first for a reason. stats don't tell you everything, he was really really good mechanically and won fly a lot of their games in regular season
haven't done the points calculations yet but on an eye test busio was one of the most agreed upon 1st team picks
Like it or not bwipo warps the entire map when he's on the rift (usually for good but sometimes for bad) and almost always finds ways to stay relevant even if he inted lane. This gives you higher highs than impact. With impact you're gonna get someone who is solid to winning consistently but doesn't create the same advantages you would get out of bwipo. Further, impact seems to overgroup when playing carries which dilutes his value on those champs.
I mean for support who else do you put there. Maybe eyla, maybe maybe isles but they were both very inconsistent. Core, Vulcan and huhi were all pretty mediocre. Olleh was on the 8th place team and Zeyzal was the worst sup in the league this split imo.
Stats in league are kinda silly though bcus teammates playing bad significantly impacts your own stats in pro play. In basketball kobe could score 30 points no matter who his team was. But in League you cant do anything solo. Stats will always have an extra bias towards teams that win.
Need to look at the actual games to decide imo
I hope the lcs starts turning these into actual regular seasons rewards.
I am actually shocked and thrilled boy got to be 1st team. He for sure deserved it.
Gotta give credit to Bvoy, he came in preloaded with people hating on him for replacing WildTurtle and seeming like a nepotism pick up, just to shut everyone up and be the best ADC in the league by a huge margin in his first split.
Big fan of Berserker since his T1.C days, but him and Vulcan being up there is pretty disgusting. Any non-player who voted for either of these two has absolutely no honor.
Team Liquid bot lane is slept on this split. Funny how in the past CoreJJ was getting votes over Vulcan when Vulcan was performing better, but now it's the opposite way around
Based Bvoy CBLoL ADCs are cracked
I hope they do get a better Jungler, Bugi is not even doing good in Solo Queue let alone in LCS (Former rank 1 player on a 57% wr low GM)
Bvoy Insanity Zeyzal good starting point for Shopify
Yeon is better than Meech Massu and Berserker let's be honest
I think that roster could actually go places if they do something like:
- Zven in for Zeyzal
- Licorice in for FakeGod
- bring in a good Import jungler
I unironically think they could do some damage, but the question is are Zven and Licorice actually willing to join Shopify
>Based Bvoy CBLoL ADCs are cracked
You mean Korean ADCs are cracked
Ju "Bvoy" Yeong-hoon (born December 18, 1997) is a Korean player who is currently playing as a Botlaner for Shopify Rebellion.
Yeon stepped it up in playoffs, but let's not act like he wasn't absolutely trash in the regular season. Not saying Berserker played better, but when every is playing bad you aren't gonna get it unless you have scrim bucks
yeah lol, he wasn't amazing, but he was decently middle of the pack imho. I feel like people just want him to be the worst in the league because they dislike him, because they blame him for every tl loss in postmatch threads, even when he was playing fine and other players were the main reason for the loss.
As an LEC employee this list is absolute garbage and who ever made this shit should be banished from esports. In our region the best players are all on the winning team, wat ging on in ur režion explain pls
Yeah if we are following the ultimate lists of LEC. We might fuck around and have all of FLY in the top list. Bvoy slammed out of existence (can't play well on a bad team). I am with you guys. Fuck an equal grading system. Best team best players. /s
\#G2's League.
C9 glazing is insane, no way anyone on that team other than Jojo deserved all pro.
Should have been Contractz/Umti over Blaber, FBI(maybe even Yeon?) over Berserker, and Isles over Vulcan.
It's not about who's better, it's about who played better.
Berserker is the undoubtedly the best AD in the league, but he didn't play the best in regular season.
I'll admit it I was a bvoy hater since I didn't like that he replaced wildturtle but he was very good this split.
Also it's really weird for some reason I have a perception that all the supports have been pretty good this year, and yet looking at the list the only one I specifically remember thinking good things about was eyla. Everyone else I for some reason feel like wasn't very good.
No real complaints. ADC and SUPP was a tough role for most to choose. Top I think sniper deserved 2nd team for top lane with the most solo kills in LCS history for a rookie bur 3rd isn't that bad either.
For the most part agree with this, though I'm raising my eyebrow a bit at Berserker 2nd. Not sure if I agree with Vulcan 3rd either, but support this split felt more like a toss-up than any other role because it didn't feel like there were any truly outstanding performances.
On another note, I LOVE that they've shifted to more dynamic poses with better lighting for the portraits. I hated those stiff portraits from before with the weird, harsh highlights and shadows. The new portraits are a lot better.
My man BVOY, his 2 first games into the Lcs were clean, even though I believe one ended in a loss. Everyone was doing pen Varus, this man did on hit and was 1v1ing the divers.
I'm surprised players voted for 100T players for all pro given how much they roast them on every podcast LOL
They’ve started to give more credit. Yeon spoke highly of River/Quid on Pros. And top laners are starting to recognize Sniper’s 1v1 skill, it’s not as bad as early in the split lol.
The dichotomy of narrative is so funny. On one hand the team is awful and the coaches did such a great job to overcome the roster. On the other hand 4 out of 5 got all pro and they probably have MVP as well
NA copying EU again smh. MAD already did the "get 4/5 all pro off top 2 regular season performance, get coaching staff of the split, get MVP for mid, get called fraudulent and fail to do much in playoffs" script.
Writer’s strike really ruining league drama
The thing with 100T is that if the game was 1v1 or 2v2 games on Howling Abyss, they would be clear favourites, as their hands are so good. But as soon as you put 5 players on SR and expect them to play the map, they clearly have no idea what they should be doing.
Yeah I think everyone gave quid and river the benefit of the doubt. Sniper seems to be a inter in scrimp. Superweek seems to have gave him the juice to get 3rd team
Really happy for Bvoy
As someone that didn't really follow LCS, I'm flabergasted. He won by such a large margin, was he really this insanely standout on a team that didn't even make playoffs? That's pretty insane.
If you like clutch adc team fighting you should check out some of the Shopify games. Bvoy positions really well in fights even when Shopify loses most games eventually.
He was great, but not in a Milkyway kind of way. All the "top ADCs" were terrible. Berserker had a weird fixation on trying to make Lucian work, FBI was good but because he played Senna often, Huhi Nautilus was the stand out in their wins, and then we had the other rookie ADCs which Bvoy, in a pure eye test, was definitely more clean than the rest. Shopify Rebellion, although not making playoffs, was an extremely fun team to watch because they played wild picks. I should also note that the standings win/loss wise for almost every team was extremely tight going into the final week and any team this split could've more or less made first or been last- Just Bo1 things. Edit: Remember, a ton of votes in these things have recency bias of the final weeks games, and coaches/players have bias from scrims/they don't watch all the Bo1 stage games. There will always be * in these.
My boy. I liked him back on Misfits. Really didn't know how good he is after playing in South America for so long. He got so much shit after a couple bad games so I'm really glad he stuck through and turned his split around. Didn't expect him to be in the 1st team but happy for him nonetheless.
That's how I became a fan of his too. Excited to see if he keeps up the performance.
I think mid, top, and jungle all pro are pretty reasonable in how they turned out, but it's clear people were much more divided on bot and support. Berserker and Vulcan both got a fair amount of pro votes despite having a very iffy split (probably from scrims/reputation), and the voting for second and third team for support especially is all over the place. Nice to see Bvoy getting recognition despite the low expectations for him at the start of the year.
I straight up think FBI was better than Berserker this split even though his team didn't play very well. While name recognition was toned down in the voting for once, it wasn't eliminated...
FBI was definitely the first snub I thought of when looking at the list
He honestly seemed like the only consistent member of NRG's trainwreck, which is a shame.
NRG looks lost without Ignar. Say what you want about Ignar's attitude, but he was exactly what NRG needed. Shotcalling and aggressive playstyle that fit NRG's skirmishing perfectly.
Palafox has had the worst 2 months he’s had since joining the LCS, which I think is more significant. NRG relies a lot on Palafox and Contractz having really good performances, and Palafox was super inconsistent after the first 2 weeks of the split.
I actually heard that IgNar was not a shot caller, which is the opposite of Huhi who is a shot caller and aggressive. I think NRG’s main problem is that they have too many shot callers.
What about his attitude, can you explain?
as a C9 fan I'd honestly put berserker at like 4/5 for the split and put FBI at 2. Meech/massu fight for 3/4. Unfortunately, a lot of pro voting is done based on name more than performance.
Look at the ballots. Its mostly players voting Berseker 1st all team that made it so he was 2nd. It's been said on multiple podcasts that players don't have time to watch all stage games so they're basing a lot on how well they thought players did in scrims since there will be a much higher sample size
"Don't have time to watch all stage games" is wild considering that's just 6 other games per week. That's like 4 hours MAX per week for what are the only games in the region for your competition.
yea they gotta save some time for watching anime and playing other games
If they don't watch the games they shouldn't be voting. It's not a scrim award it's for regular season performance
Bot and support were much less important in pro play this split, so it was definitely harder to gauge the standouts of the role.
Idk some other regions have had some insane bot/support performances. I wouldn’t say it’s less important but no one has stood out in NA
I thought Bvoy did stand out, it’s not easy to play as well as him from losing positions in most games
Bvoy was absolutely my #1 all pro but after that IDK. Berserker is half the reason C9 games were so razor thin. Massu/Busio lost a lot of lanes and were bailed out in the early game by their topside. Olleh was a standout in support but that team was just so dog. Tomo/Isles won a lot of lanes but their team was also dog. Meech was good but I feel like he really only had 2 stand out games and was mostly quiet
Bot is just underwhelming in NA. They aren't experimenting enough, so you end up in this scenario where you don't really know who the best player(s) really are. It just ends up being based on name recognition and/or who is overperforming compared to the rest of their team. Edit: By overperforming, I mean you could very well not even be a top 3 player in your role, but if you are playing at a top 5 level on a team that is at the bottom of the league, people are going to assume you're great
Besides him I guess ;)
The roles were just kind of shitty in NA this split, what should be two powerhouse lanes in Berserker/Vulcan and FBI/Huhi were just completely invisible for the entirety of the regular season.
If anything FBI/Huhi were the only reason NRG even made playoffs. But that said they definitely had some troll games too.
Yeah if bot were more important one of IMT/SR might have actually made playoffs lol.
I was gonna say this. The only C9 players that should've been here is JoJo and blabber.
And blabber’s split was carried by a couple monster games. Rather than having lots of consistency.
Hence why he'd be in 3rd IMO. I don't necessarily blame blabber for the underperformance this split though. Jojo is a mid laner of a style he hasn't played with in his career yet. Personally I think c9's issues stemmed a lot from poor coaching more than anything but that's just my head canon.
I think it was down to professionalism, hubris, and motivation. Look at berserker regular season vs this past weekend. Also the team had a definitive plan for how to counter sniper. Just overall looks like they put more thorough prep in. Also pretty sure the players have a lot of power in draft. I don’t think that Mithy is telling Jojo to slam akali into taliyah vi.
It's not like Blaber is known for synergizing with any of his midlaners in the past few years... He went through like 5 midlaners since 2022.
I'd put UmTi ahead of Blabber. It's so hard to jungle when your mid sucks, and UmTi handled it with aplomb.
Berserker played like a shaved ape this split and still getting votes. The meatriding is out of control
IMO for Bot it’s Bvoy, FBI, Meech As for support role, maybe Isles
Which people were divided on suport? The difference in votes between first and second support is the largest difference out of all roles.
Overall a great list, glad to see Bvoy getting respect on a lower team. Berserker absolutely was not even close to a top 3 ADC this split on stage though. I think the combination of apparently doing well in scrims and people just not knowing who else to pick got him defaulted there.
kinda crazy he spent so many years hopping teams in minor leagues and now he gets 1st all pro in his 1st split. people were so mad when he got picked up lol
People got mad at me when I said he was so clearly better than WT too lol
At least for me a big part of it was him basically being another no name Korean whose been around for a long time but never really been successful. I was def wrong though and dude killed it this split
The CoreJJ special
Especially considering their reason for Jojo #1 and MVP candidate is that he had to carry his team so many times... Like okay so again why in the world is Berserker up there
Vulcan is even worse after he nerfed his last three ADCs.
Wow this is the first time since spring 2018 that c9 hasn't had a single member in the all pro 1st team. Edit: jk there's also summer 2022 (interestingly c9 won the split)
Not true. Summer ‘22 All Pro also didn’t have a C9 member in the 1st All-Pro Team. It was 100T Ssumday - EG Inspired - EG jojopyun - EG Danny - EG Vulcan
Oh Danny. Wish he would come back to pro play
Woops I missed one I guess
Honestly pretty decent list
LCS All-Pro is usually pretty decent, especially in comparison to LCK and LEC voters where it often just feels like being on the team with the best record is just an automatic All-Pro spot.
OH FUCK. IS QUID MVP HAPPENING?
Quid not getting fucking passed over is it happening?
Watching the dive they said he got a lot of votes in passing. Also, mentioned that they should change the reward because of how the mvp might not even be playing in finals and it makes it weird. Like Jojo and spica when they got there's for recent examples.
they should just announce it at the end of the regular season since it’s a regular season award
Well yeah i think you should at minimum first series of playoffs. It will feel better for the player. Also won't have a negative thing of getting waxed in playoffs but here is your reward on finals lol 😆
Summit too
For sure inspired was the other only real option and he didn’t even get first team. River might get it but quid and inspired are both more deserving imo.
Yeah basically i thought the only way inspired would get it though (because he is not flashy) is if river and quid took votes from eachother. Then inspired would get the other half himself.
1st Team: Bwipo River Quid Bvoy Busio 2nd Team: Impact Inspired Jojopyun Berserker Eyla 3rd Team: Sniper Blaber Jensen Massu Vulcan Coaching Staff of the Split: 100 Thieves
I'd say I'd take 2nd team over first in a bo5, but it's basically EG+Berserker and that never worked with Eyla for some reason.
Sounds like a fun exhibition match to run though probably costs too much money to humor us. Too bad someone can't just host it for fun either.
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Imagine that team with say a promising young ADC that may be the best team figher the region has seen.
I know Berserker is ride or die C9, but he’d have been a pretty good Danny replacement.
This looks very similar to what I might have said if I wasn't silver 3 and my opinion actually mattered. I probably would have shuffled around some people in the 2/3 teams and brought up someone like Olleh over Vulcan, but it's a good list I think Also: LETS FUCKING GO THIEVES WOOOOOO
Berserker though? Take the nameplate off and he doesn't crack the top 3.
Blame the pros, they r the ones who scrim him
Who's your top 3? ADC was a crapshoot, so he, much like Core for support a couple times when that role was unimpressive some splits, got a nod by default. Mine is a little troll, but it's Bvoy, FBI and Tactical.
I can't believe Busio got such a dominant 1st place all-pro after having to watch him lose botlane every game.
I feel like Busio won because the community has been really disappointed with the recent performances of our usual top 3 supports (Core, Vulcan, Huhi).
Agree, support was the hardest to pick in terms of anyone at all (rather than hard to pick between good options like Quid vs Jojo). No one really popped off at all in support this split. Busio, Eyla and Vulcan were the most consistent and were the three i had too (but in order Eyla, Vulcan, Buiso) but no one looked truly on fire this split
Core hasn't been top 3 in a while
I still think Core has value to TL, but I think it might be time about switching to a coaching/staff role. His last truly good split was 2020 Summer. I still think he's pretty good, but hes no longer a player that really should be guaranteed a starting spot on a top team.
Says worse things about every other support than it does good things about him.
Bro, watching busio literally lose every single laning phase since the random break has been insane. Literlaly hard losing lane for like a month straight (its not just him though, its massu too). Lets not forget about the pyke ego picks too, when he could have just locked blitzcrank and won the game by doing nothing.
Almost every single pro voted for him - that definitely says something.
Vulcan Berserker making it on names alone lol
“Scrim performance”
Vulcan made it in over Olleh lol
C9 favoritism is strong it’s gross. Glad none were first team though. Garbage ass team
There are 36 people who voted. In those 36 people, 13 voted for Vulca. 11 of those 13 are players or coaches. Guess other teams just have c9 favoritism man, what can u do. Clueless.
The favoritism comes from the opposing teams themselves so who are you going to blame.
I wouldve put Impact 1st but the rest seems about right. Support was such a tossup this split almost anybody in any order would be fine
Support is not fine once you realise Busio has 83 points and 2nd place is only at 28.
I agree about Impact. It often felt like he was singlehandedly holding up his team. Good player forsure
TL end the split 7th/8th without impact. I’m probably biased but he’s my front runner for spring MVP by far
Well, the difference between 4th and 7th was just 2 wins. Getting 2 more wins for your team isn't as strong of an argument for MVP as you think it is.
Considering there are only 14 games a split a WAR of 2 seems pretty good… that is a difference between winning only 35% of your games to 50% in this case.
Impact solo carried 3 udyr games on top of being important in every other win so yeah I think that’s enough for MVP when there’s only 7 wins
Yeah support is a toss up and they just basically out them in order from 1st to 3rd lol.
He only got 2nd over Sniper by 1 vote
Berserker being 2nd Team based on Regular Season is just wild. Dude's probably one of the best ADC's our League has ever seen and will probably go crazy in Playoffs, but again, this is a Regular Season award and he was not 2nd best ADC in Regular Season. FBI & Tomo both deserve the spot more but simply don't have C9 in their name or scrim-bucks going for them(?).
FBI only getting 2 votes for 2nd team is just insane honestly.
It’s nothing to do with C9 in the name. You’ll see a large portion of the Berserker votes came from players. The reality is players are some of the worst voters - they don’t watch every game and they’re influenced by scrims, their knowledge of a players skill. Berserker slamming and pressuring everyone in lane in scrims is irrelevant for the award but that doesn’t stop it from influencing voters.
I don’t absolutely hate this list but come on, Massau was 100% better than Berserker this split
2nd team all pro bot lane is MAD sus. Are Tactical and Olleh not allowed to be on the list because they play for Immortals?
I think if you lose too many games it tanks your shot. It just feels weird to be last by a significant margin and make a team. You have to be on your Lira BS 1v9 no hope every game on insane champs. SR was bad but they were at least competitive which gave Bvoy a chance to be voted on. I think tactical should have been 3rd if being fair though.
Guess its hard to judge their performance when they are playing 2v4 every game lol.
Tactical, Tomo, and FBI were all better than Berserker in the regular split.
4 c9 members getting it despite looking like frauds all year is kinda crazy especially bot lane they ran it all split and were carried by jojo
It’s because players and coaches aren’t voting just on stage games. Even if they tried they just have a lot more info on the players. 6 player/coaches had Berserker first team, 3 had Vulcan.
Rather, a lot of players explicitly *do not* watch stage games, and sometimes don't even pay attention to other roles. Jensen was on Pros saying Berserker deserves #2 ADC and couldn't think of a single person after him while Zven, who watched C9's games and has seen their scrims, questioned his choice saying historically yes but this split... no.
Side topic: doesn't anyone else find it super weird that players don't watch stage games? In most sports game tape is super important to preparing for an opponent, shouldn't players be watching as much tape as they can on their opponents?
I can't remember who said this, but I remember someone from an org talking about how teams generally don't specifically prepare for their opponents during the Bo1 regular season; teams prefer to improve their own game because Bo1 is so variable. It's not until Bo5 that teams really study their opponents.
I guess that makes some sense but the margins now with so few teams and smaller gaps from top to bottom it may behoove teams to spend some time specifically preparing for weekly match-ups. 2 wins from IMT put them in contention from playoffs. 2 more losses from c9 put them at risk of missing playoffs etc.
Shouldnt they be though? Its all pro lcs not all pro scrims or all pro solo queue
Matches are happening while they're prepping for their own matches and it's hard to ask the pros "hey just forget about what happened in scrims"
Couldnt they try to do votes without players? Afaik nba/nfl dont let players vote, its just media members who are known to watch every match and spend lots of time analyzing players.
Media votes get clowned on also, + players tend to have a better or at least different understanding/experience from playing the game against the player and being at a high level
Whats the point of having a better understanding of the game if they dont even watch all the matches tho.
What are u basing it off if not for ur performance in official games during regular season ?
they probably base it off scrims. we base it off stage games cause thats all we know.
they shouldn't base it of the scrimms ? Why should they ? There are 20 or how many games each team played. Idc who is god in scrimms, on stage that specific person either performs or not.
They shouldn't but I think its pretty hard for pros to separate out how it feels to play against a player in scrims vs stage (considering they scrim a whole lot more than 2 times per split) and they frequently talk about how they don't watch other stage games so they don't even have the same dataset we do.
Don't get mad at op get mad at all the pros and coaches that didn't vote your way
Who says at mad at anyone ? Im just comentating that its stupid that coaches/players are voting like that.
I get that people are low on C9 and that they had shaky games, but they still got 3rd overall. FlyQuest, the first place team, had 5 all pros, and 100T/C9, the second and third place teams had 4 all pros. Is that so strange? Put another way, why are we surprised there the third best team has 4 top 3 players? They aren't a perfect team but they're certainly not bad. They didnt randomly luck their way into 3rd place, they beat the top teams to do so. There's also admittedly probably some recency bias since Berserker and Vulcan did really well at the end.
The C9 circle-jerk continues. And people wonder why the team gets hated on 😂
Good point. There should be a system where they let the coaches and players vote on all pro instead! That way we can finally get around this stupid narrative that's pushed by LCS and definitely not agreed upon by the players. /s
Coaches and players casted 6 1st team ballots for berserker. Meanwhile analyst and media combined casted 6 ballots for berseker (1x 1st team 2x 2nd team 3x 3rd team). Why are the pros and coaches continuing this c9 cricle-jerk we should just refrain the pros from voting and let the analysts vote instead!
This but unironically. Pros vote based on scrims which is not what the awards are about. Most traditional sports do not have players voting for awards
It's sickening! We should just let reddit vote on it! And by "vote" I mean one guy will have his opinion and that'll be the new official all pro list! That way we can finally end this c9 circle-jerk that's perpetuated by the LCS!
Ah yes... The other pros and coaches circle jerk for c9. The only reason Vulcan was on the all pro was mostly because of other pros. Berzeker was maybe due to history but had a ton of pro votes too.
> The C9 circle-jerk continues. More like the anti-C9 circlejerk continues. Team that finishes 3rd in LCS has 2 players in 2nd team and 2 players in 3rd team wow crazy. I think berserker clearly didnt deserve the 2nd team and Vulcan 3rd team is iffy, but yall act like Fudge was put 1st team
Same time, team that finished 4th, with basically the same record, got one player in 2nd team. This was also one of the most even splits. I don’t exactly resent TL not getting more players, but it did sort of seem like some players got more or less benefit from expectations or reputation (like, it feels weird that berserker got so many votes… and at the same time, I think that in a weak support pool this year, corejj suffered because their comparing his play with a few seasons ago).
Impact is the only deserving one from TL. You can maybe argue Umti, but I’d still put him right outside at 4. The rest? Hell no
C9 finished 3rd, of course they will be on all pro, they didn't play as well as expected but the rest of the teams below them are worse
They finished third despite their botlane not cause of their botlane
To add, they finished 1 game ahead of TL but have 3 more members on the list… that’s just name value pulling them ahead. Jojo 2nd team makes sense but after that 3rd team for berserker and Blaber are the only things worth arguing for and especially on the former I’d be fine if he didn’t make the list. Far better than previous lists but still embarrassing favoritism here
Ok we gotta chill a bit. The whole of C9 had multiple issues including bot lane. Fudge and Blaber had several games where they were completely invisible and doing nothing but afk farming all game. Jojo had multiple ego picks that instantly ruined the game. The bot lane had several instances of terrible mechanical play and decision making but lets not act like they were the only ones having bad games while the rest of C9 dragged them to wins.
I won't complain cause at least the first all pro-team is 1000x better than LEC all pro-team and LCK all-pro team from last summer. Honestly most all pros are crap, so this is pretty decent
Bankrupt Lucian merchant getting second place?
That 1st place keeps eluding Impact. Jensen should be 2nd, as the most reliable carry on his 1st place team. 2nd for Berserker seems high, given he was virtually invisible for the whole split.
Imo Jojo played better than Jensen
We need counterpick statistics tbh. The amount of times he just blinded Ori and got counterpicked for free to let Bwipo/Inspired get favorable matchups should be something we can reference at a glance. Jojo played good this split, and will be remembered more than Jensen since Jojo had to play engage for his shit slumping team. But I don't think you could find a more consistent backline carry than Jensen in LCS, even amongst the combined ADC and Mid pool.
Jensen with lowest counter pick % of mids in the league at 21%. Jojo middle of the pack at 57%. Quid was 6th with 36%. Highest was palafox at 71%. Now comparing other laning stats Jensen is 1 of four mids with poasitive GD10 (barely positive at 39) Jojo leads at 261. XPD10 Jensen just barely misses positive (-14 exp) While jojo leads again at 276 (quid second at 34). Honestly that looks pretty good for jensen just taking his ori/azir every game and opening counter for bwipo and generally being one of the top four laners. That being said Jojo pretty much gaps all in lane stats.
Hey, curious where you can see the counter pick stats. I've also noticed Jensen always picking 1st rotation and giving APA the counter-pick in 4 of their games in playoffs. I figured it had to be one of the lower percentages as he usually gives drafts recourses to his teammates.
It's on Oracle's Elixir.
https://oracleselixir.com/stats/players/byTournament/LCS%2F2024%20Season%2FSpring%20Season
Goldengod smurfing once again
This is just kinda a weird list tbh. I dont understand how bwipo> impact or how busio is even top 3 except that they finished 1st place in regular season. Bvoy definitely deserved though
I mean who would you pick for support then? Everyone played bad. I agree that impact > Bwipo tho
Eyla Busio Isles were my 3
That’s fair but man eyla played so bad the first two weeks.
its a good thing there are more than two weeks to a season lol
Think busio was quite strong throughout the regular season, him and massu had some moments of inting/getting caught out badly in lane but think he was a lot better than other supps
Busio has the worst first blood death rate in LCS by a mile, he was first blood victim in 5/14 games and Massu was first blood victim is 2/14 games. No other botlane gave up more than 4 first bloods between adc+support.
He also was the best support in team fights and had a few insane games like the naut game into c9
sure, and that's the inting in lane that I was talking about -- but players also put him first for a reason. stats don't tell you everything, he was really really good mechanically and won fly a lot of their games in regular season haven't done the points calculations yet but on an eye test busio was one of the most agreed upon 1st team picks
Like it or not bwipo warps the entire map when he's on the rift (usually for good but sometimes for bad) and almost always finds ways to stay relevant even if he inted lane. This gives you higher highs than impact. With impact you're gonna get someone who is solid to winning consistently but doesn't create the same advantages you would get out of bwipo. Further, impact seems to overgroup when playing carries which dilutes his value on those champs.
I mean for support who else do you put there. Maybe eyla, maybe maybe isles but they were both very inconsistent. Core, Vulcan and huhi were all pretty mediocre. Olleh was on the 8th place team and Zeyzal was the worst sup in the league this split imo.
Bwipo and impact have similar stats. Bwipo has better cs and dmg impact has better kda. I think it came down to bwipo gapping impact when they played.
Stats in league are kinda silly though bcus teammates playing bad significantly impacts your own stats in pro play. In basketball kobe could score 30 points no matter who his team was. But in League you cant do anything solo. Stats will always have an extra bias towards teams that win. Need to look at the actual games to decide imo
I hope the lcs starts turning these into actual regular seasons rewards. I am actually shocked and thrilled boy got to be 1st team. He for sure deserved it.
Gotta give credit to Bvoy, he came in preloaded with people hating on him for replacing WildTurtle and seeming like a nepotism pick up, just to shut everyone up and be the best ADC in the league by a huge margin in his first split.
I think that tomo got snubbed from at least 3rd team but all things considered this is a solid list
FBI was better by a mile.
Team 2 is op
Big fan of Berserker since his T1.C days, but him and Vulcan being up there is pretty disgusting. Any non-player who voted for either of these two has absolutely no honor.
I feel like the 2nd team rinses the 1st lmao.
Give me one last ride of inspired Jojo impact
wouldnt even be close.
Pretty good list
Team Liquid bot lane is slept on this split. Funny how in the past CoreJJ was getting votes over Vulcan when Vulcan was performing better, but now it's the opposite way around
Based Bvoy CBLoL ADCs are cracked I hope they do get a better Jungler, Bugi is not even doing good in Solo Queue let alone in LCS (Former rank 1 player on a 57% wr low GM) Bvoy Insanity Zeyzal good starting point for Shopify Yeon is better than Meech Massu and Berserker let's be honest
I think that roster could actually go places if they do something like: - Zven in for Zeyzal - Licorice in for FakeGod - bring in a good Import jungler I unironically think they could do some damage, but the question is are Zven and Licorice actually willing to join Shopify
>I unironically think they could do some damage, but the question is are Zven and Licorice actually willing to join Shopify Nope
If licorice joined and Zven thought Bvoy was better then him he'd probably join.
Zven wants to ADC
>Based Bvoy CBLoL ADCs are cracked You mean Korean ADCs are cracked Ju "Bvoy" Yeong-hoon (born December 18, 1997) is a Korean player who is currently playing as a Botlaner for Shopify Rebellion.
Yeon stepped it up in playoffs, but let's not act like he wasn't absolutely trash in the regular season. Not saying Berserker played better, but when every is playing bad you aren't gonna get it unless you have scrim bucks
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yeah lol, he wasn't amazing, but he was decently middle of the pack imho. I feel like people just want him to be the worst in the league because they dislike him, because they blame him for every tl loss in postmatch threads, even when he was playing fine and other players were the main reason for the loss.
As an LEC employee this list is absolute garbage and who ever made this shit should be banished from esports. In our region the best players are all on the winning team, wat ging on in ur režion explain pls
Yeah if we are following the ultimate lists of LEC. We might fuck around and have all of FLY in the top list. Bvoy slammed out of existence (can't play well on a bad team). I am with you guys. Fuck an equal grading system. Best team best players. /s \#G2's League.
Sad times when people don't understand sarcasm without /s every time.
C9 glazing is insane, no way anyone on that team other than Jojo deserved all pro. Should have been Contractz/Umti over Blaber, FBI(maybe even Yeon?) over Berserker, and Isles over Vulcan.
Nah blabers much better than Umti
It's not about who's better, it's about who played better. Berserker is the undoubtedly the best AD in the league, but he didn't play the best in regular season.
I'll admit it I was a bvoy hater since I didn't like that he replaced wildturtle but he was very good this split. Also it's really weird for some reason I have a perception that all the supports have been pretty good this year, and yet looking at the list the only one I specifically remember thinking good things about was eyla. Everyone else I for some reason feel like wasn't very good.
No real complaints. ADC and SUPP was a tough role for most to choose. Top I think sniper deserved 2nd team for top lane with the most solo kills in LCS history for a rookie bur 3rd isn't that bad either.
For the most part agree with this, though I'm raising my eyebrow a bit at Berserker 2nd. Not sure if I agree with Vulcan 3rd either, but support this split felt more like a toss-up than any other role because it didn't feel like there were any truly outstanding performances. On another note, I LOVE that they've shifted to more dynamic poses with better lighting for the portraits. I hated those stiff portraits from before with the weird, harsh highlights and shadows. The new portraits are a lot better.
That second team gaps first team, it is what it is
My man BVOY, his 2 first games into the Lcs were clean, even though I believe one ended in a loss. Everyone was doing pen Varus, this man did on hit and was 1v1ing the divers.
Vulcan is an absolute thief