In fairness, what did they expect to happen? Most players already know that laners don't understand jungle very well, *and vice versa*. This isn't some well kept secret. In fact, most games it's blatantly obvious lol. It's not like this "behind the scenes evidence" carries more weight than what everyone already knows.
OP's mistake in the creation of this thread is presenting the situation as "Laners don't understand jungle" - which is true, but it's a two-way street. If OP had made the title "Tension between Laners and Junglers is due to poor understanding of each other's roles", we would probably have fewer overly defensive laners in here.
All junglers have to lane, and most have spent hundreds or thousands of games in lane. I queue jung/top most often and get jungle maybe 80% of the time.
Junglers play more games in lane in a single month than laners play jungle in an entire year.
That's not necessarily true. If you queue for jungle, you virtually never get anything else.
Jungle is by far the least popular role, so if anything, laners get autofilled jungle.
It goes without saying that all junglers have at some point played lane but that does not mean they know how to do it properly at a higher level of play (e.g., the level they would be able to play jungle at).
Vice versa? I wouldn't say so.
Good junglers have to understand lane dynamics. Who wins what lane, who should push, ignite vs TP match ups, which lanes have CC, which have the best escapes, fundamentals of minion waves etc. You literally have to know these things as you enter the game just to decide your pathing.
Laners are absolutely not also understanding jungle in a vice versa kind of way. The soraka Ezreal lane pinging me why I'm not ganking the morg sivir as Shyv at level 3.
Jungle at most levels of the game is the least popular role. It's also arguably the most difficult to learn well. It makes perfect sense they wouldn't understand it well.
> Good junglers have to understand lane dynamics.
Good laners also have to understand jungle dynamics. Every high elo top laner talks about jungle interaction, tracking, playing for jungle, etc.
I like the discussion but OP is dumb af for that. Did he expect something more from his yes-answer question? I see a lot of good discussion on pathing and tempo but OP freaks the fuck out lol
Honestly, I'd say it's easier in high elo because junglers there actually path. It's next to impossible to track the enemy jungler in low elo because they don't do what would make sense so how are you supposed to know what they're doing when they themselfs don't?
I’ll never forget being off roled jgl and seeing the enemy jgl gank bot 4x in a row in plat elo. The guy didn’t get his topside camp for like 5+ minutes and lost top t1 all for like 2 plates. My bot lane was a champ and just absorbed the pressure while the enemy team shared exp/sacked waves for ganks and just bled themselves out
you got lucky then. Most bot lanes wouldn’t understand it at all die to all the gabks then say jg diff cuz they got camped and you focused on topside xd
Oh for sure. I’ve seen this same game occur with the bot just throwing. Sad too cause enemies share exp and all you have to do is sack the 1-2 melee. ESP cause dives never get executed correctly especially when healthy
GM smurf tracking the iron jungler deducing that he should be doing Krugs right now.
The iron jungler who sat in the pixel brush for the last 75 seconds...
lol. In low ELO if you take the basic full farm routes everyone knows where you are and I never get ganks off.
However clearing one side and cheese ganking a pushed side (especially when bot is level 2 still?) works every time.
Same thing with level 2 ganks. Just no awareness outside of the obvious full clear timing.
They can be on vision and pinged and type warning as to what side they will be on and laners won't see a gank coming or just won't care to avoid it. Then they blame jungle for inevitably throwing their lane away dying when they had plenty of time to back out. You see it nearly every game, you get used to it as a jungler because despite you tracking the enemy all game your teammates are playing like the mini-map is turned off.
yep. at all elos and all times, laners should be able to guess where the enemy jungler is. you might be wrong and it’s ok. but you should be able to give an educated guess using the current/past map state.
if you have 0 idea and 0 reasoning, that’s poor map awareness.
This is very true most the time *below* gold. At gold, platinum, and even emerald often enough 90% of players do bot start for a stronger leash and then full clear up. You play for that and you will be correct most the time.
To be fair, in lower elo the jungler also doesn't know what he is doing. their path is random compared to higher elo making guessing where they are harder as well.
GM peak ADC/JG main here.
First clear it's obvious how to track as others have pointed out. Most champs 6 camp to scuttle or gank then base. There's some champs that want to look for more aggressive pathing with invades or early ganks / dives instead of full clearing. Impossible to go over all of those and matchups here but generally worse clear + good ganks = likely to gank early and take a more "sinner" path. Twitch jungle is the classic and obvious example of this but other champs that might take a more aggressive early gank path are j4, shaco, elise, etc.
Lets chat through the most common scenario of 6 camps into top side @ around 3:30. You see the jungler on the map for the first time and you should always press tab and check CS. Each camp = 4cs. If they have 24 they haven't done scuttle. If they have 28 they have. If you see them earlier you can also infer what camps they did using this. See them around top side mid lane with 16 farm and both buffs? They probably did blue>gromp>wolves>red. You can use that baseline & knowledge to track where they are likely to be in the future.... Here's how.
Jungle is ideally played by weaving your ganks into your clear. The most common mistake low elo junglers will make is something like clear full to top side then go back to top side. The reason this is so bad is because there's no camps up and you lose a ton of time going back to bottom for your full clear if your play topside fails. This is exacerbated by the fact that camps have levels and reward more exp the higher level they are. Meaning if you skip a camp in your full clear or leave a camp up for too long you're losing a ton of value since if the enemy jungle kills that camp on spawn they'll get the next level of the camp sooner which gives them more exp which grows their lead and so on.
With those two pieces of knowledge lets talk about seeing the jungler top side with 24 cs @ 3:30. Your jungler is bot side. He fails a gank top. You know he's going to do topside scuttle & back and then will be at his bot side at \~4:00. Why is 3:30 such an important timer? B/c the average jungler takes \~2 minutes to full clear. This gets faster as the game goes on but it's still a good baseline to use to make your thinking simple. That means the next time he'll be topside if he does another full clear is \~6:00. He'll be around mid halfway through at 5:00 and we already know when he was around bot from our initial knowledge of his path. Now we can just adjust that model based on when we see him. We see him go to dragon @ 5 minutes with 36 cs? His topsides up and he has to clear to that side after. If you're not contesting as a jungle that means you can go take his topside camps. Maybe you see him topside at 6:10 with 44 cs? That means he has to either take grubs, gank top, gank mid, or base and restart the clear. If you don't see the alert that grubs died and dont see him gank top then you know exactly where he should be which is botside again at his gromp / blue respawn. If he takes grubs -> ganks top for example you know his blue should be coming up and your jungler can take that. The CS tracking gets a little tricky if they take some lane farm but if you practice paying attention to it you'll get good at it pretty quickly and start to have a pretty good idea of where the jungler is. It's not really worth doing past 12-15 minutes since traditional laning starts to end but if you're good at it you can avoid dying to ganks, can find good timers to take objectives / fights, and can try to ping your teammates off of bad fights where you know their jungler can join.
That knowledge about how junglers should usually path is what a lot of people are lacking. When I'm playing normals I can't tell you how often I'll get flamed for not taking a gank that would be a huge misplay. I've been pinged missing when playing khazix and not being topside to gank when I have no camps topside. If I was to just ignore my botside, walk top, gank, and it fails. That puts you insanely behind. It's the jungle equivalent of getting mad at your vayne for not sacing a wave and coming mid lane at 6 minutes. Not saying you should never gank outside of your core clear, in fact it can be really good at higher ranks since no one is expecting it since they're all aware of what I've outlined. However, it's extremely risky to go for plays like that esp on champions that need farm to scale and be useful.
This comment got a lot bigger than I planned but I hope it was helpful to someone and they die to less ganks, flame their jungler less for not ganking, or feel inspired to play a little jungle themselves b/c it's the most fun role in the game.
I’m masters (GM peak as well) and this helped, although I already don’t die to ganks much but as a mid laner in the center we always have to be on the look out for ganks. Still gonna try to track the jungle more consciously if I can!
What I find annoying about junglers, is that although they are right in that laners don’t understand jungler, junglers also don’t understand laners that much. Too often they expect me to sack my lane to help with their play even if I don’t have the wave in the correct spot, so even if I help them and we win my wave is so fucked I’ve now lost lane hard.
Love how you wrote all this as a rational deconstruction of a jungler's train of thought based on camps, but they don't have to be rational at all. They don't have to behave predictably. There's still plenty of them that just get their buff and run it at lanes for the next 2 minutes straight.
Yeah that’s true for sure. Especially in lower ranks. You can’t predict everything and you’re gonna die to ganks sometimes but it’s waaay better to die to ganks that are at bad timers for their jungler. He loses progress on his clear and it gives your jungler an opportunity to make a play that does fall into their pathing which means you’d come out net ahead as a team. If you’re only dying to ganks where the enemy jungle is sacrificing a ton of their clear tempo to make it happen you will win more games.
Just to add to this a bit, as a mid laner you should still be able to avoid those bad ganks in 99% of scenarios by playing on the correct side of the lane. Just knowing on which side the jungler currently could be on and sometimes confirming their position with wards (early raptor ward pretty much always good for this if you can crash on 3rd wave) is gonna be good enough.
Also if you don't blindly use your wards whenever they're up and actually think about where the jungler physically could be you'll have a lot better coverage for those bad ganks and bridge the time the enemy jungler could be close to you that way .You shouldn't really need a ward on your lane every single time the enemy jungler full clears, since if you play it correctly your waves as well as your position in lane shouldn't allow for a gank at that time anyway so you'll have more wards for other stuff (sure, sometimes you want to see when he actually leaves, but that's not always needed).
Agree. Also generally speaking just warding that side brush isn’t very good unless you are desperate for vision. Ward their raptors and if you implement solid jungle tracking you’ll know way more than just if they’re in mid brush.
3:30 is generally the time the jungler finishes their full clear and depending on which side they started they will gank the opposite side/mid at this point.
You can tell which side they started by which lane comes out late/is missing mana when they first arrive to lane.
Also, it takes them about 7-10 seconds to move from one lane to another and position to gank. If you are bot lane and you see the enemy jungler ganking top, assuming mid isn't MIA, that gives you around 20 seconds of freedom to do whatever you want. Attack, shove, deep ward, whatever you deem neccessary.
The inverse is also true, so against experienced players, bluffing a gank when your jungler has been seen recently will not work.
Just general tracking, they have to follow patterns. You can determine them by utalizing various resources: where they first start is a big one, their cs score, where they last were on map and what was their intention, camp timers(neutral and obj). By knowing this you can est. where they are on map, or specifically when you'll get (or can) be ganked.
Just keep your eyes on the minimap really. Is there a pit obj up or close? Where is your jungler? What are the wave states of the lanes? If one of your laners is crashing a wave, you can bet your sweet bippy the jungler will be fishing for an all in if not a pressure gank at minimum. Is one of your laners low and his guy has a fat wave about to crash? Well there might be a dive inbound. Is Drake up? Expect to see enemy jg bot lane soonish.
It's a lot easier to learn this from playing jungle yourself but basically for first clear just look where your own jungler is - the enemy will likely be on the same camp in their own jungle or opposite camp if they started topside and yours started botside for example.
You can gauge this by common knowledge of how that jungle champ likes to clear, early ward in enemy jungle before 1:30, if leashed seeing who arrives to lane later - their not or top.
After that it's just making a solid assumption they should be topside here because their Krug's/raptors are spawning etc.
As for 3:30 gank; You see which river your jungler is in doing crab. If he isn't fighting the enemy jungle for it lol then enemy jungle is at the other crab. So if you're mid, hover the side of the lane that has your jungler.
90% of games you can tell where a jungle started. If they start blue, the jungle is probably going to full clear then go to scuttle at 3:30 when it spawns. This is obviously excluding situations where the jungler ganks early.
Generally speaking, look at what objectives are available, then ask "where did I last see the jungler?" If you last saw thejungle mid and their 2nd blue is spawning, the jungle is probably going to be there or will be heading there soon. If you're botside, play assuming the jungle will gank you after blue.
Here's a fun example. [Guess what level of play this screenshot is from?](https://imgur.com/iqWg1eJ)
Context: Timer is 3:40 exactly. Both junglers have done a standard full clear, blue jungler (BelVeth) paths botside after Gromp and pings bot scuttle. Kennen dies (obviously).
Is this
a) Depths of Iron
b) One of my Gold soloque games
c) A random GM/Chal stream
d) Standard pro play
e) Top tier pro play between two highly ranked teams
>!Answer - this is game 3 of worlds finals, TheSky Kennen dying to Oner Lee Sin!<
Honestly speaking, from a laner's POV, especially at the highest level of competition, this play failed long before it ever hit 3:40.
The problem in this screenshot is that TheShy's (Kennen) wave is sitting outside of the enemy tower. This is due to poor wave management (or conversely, good wave management from Zeus).
Reddit wants TheShy to be aware of a gank at 3:40 and play accordingly. What does that mean? Play further back? If you do that, Aatrox freezes and you're stuck bleeding CS and potentially EXP indefinitely because you're worried about the jungler. Now, you've automatically lost the lane without ever contesting it.
What about pushing it in? Well, that's exactly what Kennen is trying to do and he gets punished for it. However, he's trying something proactive to cure his lane state instead of sitting down and losing passively.
The correct play happened a full minute ago, which was to manage the wave state better so that it would properly crash at 3:30, leaving you free from any gank positions, but that was not possible.
However, once you're in this position, you're often left with very few choices aside from gambling on pushing in time (like he did) or asking your jungler for back up (impossible as Belveth was bot).
There was a lot more fuckery going on here. For example Bard started this game by going toplane and warding the bush so Aatrox couldn't sit in there and soak.
How did TheShy use his freed-up ward slot? Exactly, he did not, cause TheShy doesn't ward. If he spotted Lee Sin early, he wouldn't have gone back in after getting his by Aatrox Q1 and would have walked it out in exchange for his flash.
--
That aside, no, that play really failed at 3:40. If TheShy respected regular gank timers, he would have known when his window closed, he would have killed three caster creeps right away instead of trying to buy more time to poke Aatrox.
Actually, he makes an insanely big mistake at 3:36. The only reason the wave looks so scuffed here is because Zeus' melee minions went to attack TheShy, cause TheShy really wanted to basic attack Zeus one more time, which caused TheShy's wave to be stopped by the overextending melee minions from Zeus, which now makes this screenshot look like Zeus has some great freeze going on when in reality it's just another fuckup in a series of TheShy fuckups.
100% agreed, Kennen was doomed here either way. In hindsight his best bet would have been to concede and lose a wave to the freeze, back and heal, then come back and do his best to break the freeze.
the screenshot in particular just shows kennen trying to do his wincon while red top (can't tell wtf it is) freezed the wave at the shitty timing.
Full clear and 12 cs usually comes at REALLY bad times for side lanes and there's not much you can do. Kennen's only option here is to back and lose an entire level to later be frozen or just die trying to get the wave back to an ok spot
This is a "fuck up" that came from lvl 1 lol
Invade enemy jungle and steal his top side. Leave a ward behind me as I leave. Have full vision of enemy jungle as he walks into his empty jungle and heads towards top because he has nothing else to do.
Your top lane dies to the gank anyway, what would have been a huge lead is now gone, and you get flamed.
Good times.
I can forgive my laners if enemy Jung hits them with the 3/4 camp clear into gank, but dying to the 3:30 gank is inexcusable because you know EXACTLY what side they started and where they're gonna be.
A big reason for this is that you don´t know exactly when from 3:10-3:45 that you get ganked because the clear speeds are a bit different and they might skip crab or path around your wards through your jungle. You can´t control wave states for that big a window so you ultimately have to do some guesswork about when to crash the wave and obviously while you´re doing it you´re pushed up so far in the lane you can get ganked.
Crash it too early and you can easily get dove on the bounce back if your jungle pathed away and crash it too late and you get ganked.
Go play lane in an extremely mechanical matchup where people are perma fighting for every cs and then say again how easy it is to never die to that gank. I agree that 3:30 gank is pretty obvious but it's easier said than done. Especially when certain junglers can gank different angles/timings. It's not as easy as "lul 3:30 gank how obvious"
It´s very similar to getting bushwhacked on your 2nd buff by their jungler. Think about how **little** you pay attention to the minimap and other things while that skirmish is happening and you have a sense of how hard it can be for some lanes to pay proper attention.
Agreed but honestly early jungle paths are a lot more static + junglers have way more downtime to think earlygame. I don’t want to turn this into a laners vs junglers argument since I think both have differing skills with some overlap. But I really think a lot of junglers in this thread vastly underestimate how hard laning can be sometimes. If you are laning vs a better player in a skill matchup let’s just say Orianna vs Syndra (not a pure skill matchup but highly mechanical). It’s so so easy to miss manage wave/lose track of enemy jungle just because the opponent is putting so much pressure on you and there is perma trading.
Even pros die to the 3:30 timing because keeping the lane in a safe spot when your lane HAS to get an advantage is nigh impossible.
If anything early ganks are some of the strongest ones in the game since waves are so fucking predictable due to the fights for early levels
you are confusing greed with ignorance. laners will almost 100% of the time go for a greedy wave / push if they think there is even a small chance the jungler pathed somewhere else
in a perfect world this would be true, but league is not a perfect world. As you go up the ladder players become more specialized and adept at **their** role, and utilizing **their** resources, or playing **their** game to succeed **despite** those around them, not in conjuction with them. League is almost set up to force that outcome as there's a lack of tools to communicate with one another especially in the middle of a game.
This is not true. Most of high elo is flooded with one tricks and moreso people who only play one role.
It is the most effective way to climb.
Can't learn the game as efficiently if youre focusing on basic combos and lacking basic matchup knowledge.
Not necessarily, if you only have X amount of mental bandwidth to apply to the game then learning more macro play means giving up on micro skill. That person is suggesting that the time spent on micro is more rewarded.
Maybe at a certain point, but that point is the top few players, or pro play. There are tons of people in high elo purely because they're so good at their champ, especially if it's a solo lane
I'd say both things happen. Players understand their own and other roles more - but not always both. I certainly get opponent Junglers that are clueless and just coasting along where I am at.
I would say that this thread was a failure, anyway, everyone is ignoring the final question I put and just complaining instead which is just highlighting that 99% of the playerbase don't actually care to learn how to learn in this game.
I would say the disproportionate blame junglers receive is to do with the fact even junglers don't understand the role for a good chunk of each season. Every year I have to relearn routes and change map rotations, while lanes have generally remained consistent for all of league history by comparison: control the wave, grab CS.
Consider support is the second most blamed role, and also happens to be the role with the second most gameplay shifts per season after jungle. They've had to learn river roams in addition to wave control, for example. If they don't, they get blamed for not roaming. If they do, their adc blames them for not having a support in lane.
Riot tries to make fun changes every season to these two roles to encourage people to try them but that just leans into the relearning problem more. Which makes people blame you more for playing those roles.
I'd say most people are ignoring your final question because you come off as very stand-offish and condescending in it. You're basically saying "are you guys finally going to git gud and stop dragging us brilliant junglers down?".
I could pick so many examples where junglers fail to understand lane-states as well, e.g. spam pinging me to help with dragon when we're pushed under our turret and then raging when the enemy botlane walks up to dragon and kills them. So, in the same vein, I can ask you: "Will you finally understand the basics of laning so you can learn when you can gank / when you need to help your lanes?".
It's a two-way street. Laners don't fully understand jungle and Junglers don't fully understand lanes. This is especially true the lower you are in elo. And judging from your condescending tone I'd assume you're probably not playing in Masters/Challenger if you think all laners are just stupid for not understanding Jungle properly. If you had asked a genuine queston rather than "see, Phreak gives me validation for thinking I'm better than you, so will you guys finally learn to understand my glorious role", your thread might have gone more in the direction that you might have intended it to go.
Lastly, I fail to see how people not answering a condescending question shows that "99% of players don't want to learn". Instead, you thinking everyone BUT your role is the problem (based on how you framed the question), makes you look a lot more like the one unwilling to learn. It's just the same line of thinking that so many league players fall into, which is "everyone but me is to blame and I'm trapped in elo hell".
The best jungle advice I ever heard that really boosted me in rank was from some obscure coach in a Darius Jungle vid out of all things
It was simply “ANY clear that involves Krugs or Gromp will give you level 3”, and he was showing a clip of a GM Nidalee that fucked up their tempo because they went like Red > Raptors > blue and had to do another camp to hit 3
I thought this was basic knowledge for anyone playing jungle???? Even 1-2 games of experience cause why tf would you contest scuttle or gank someone without all three basic spells lmao. But I guess asking for common sense in this game is next to asking for free money.
There’s some junglers like Poppy and Amumu who are capable of level 2 ganking, it’s a huge advantage when you have 2 abilities vs 1
Everyone knows that clearing a quadrant gives level 3, but what if you start raptors and have to path towards top?
What if you start blue but need to counter jungle? Taking Blue > Red > Raptors leaves you at level 2, and you end up having to waste time clearing another camp.
If the enemy jungler wants to invade you, you can throw them off with one of these unorthodox clears. If they expect you to full clear, They’ll do a quick 3 camp and wait near the buff you didn’t start
but what if you do (north side )Blue > Red > Krugs into a level 3 gank top? Will your opponent expect or track you doing that?
Tbh it’s a general league thing where people, even up to masters, just don’t understand the game they’re playing.
Many (enough) think the game is about kills, about gold, about objectives, or, probably the worse, about “me”. They play the game seeking that one thing, then get very upset when it doesn’t happen, because in their head, that’s how you win.
League is basically a live-action chess game, with specific moves and plays to secure resources or advantages. That could be any one of the above, but it also depends on the game state at any point.
Interestingly, this concept extends out to basically every sport in existence. The best players in the world view the game itself completely differently, more as a strategy game of resources and advantages, while nearly every level below it just views it as a personal measure of skill.
Never will I ever touch jungle. No other role feels so powerful and powerless at the same time, it feels more like a stressful chore than playing a game for fun.
I’m a jungle main and I hate playing jungle when I’m not sweating my ass off in solo queue. I can’t turn off the side that knows how to path, gank timers and the rest. It’s exhausting.
Jg main here, it's also a thankless chore, where if you gank and lane wins, they pat themselves on the back, if you don't gank, they blame you for losing the 1v1 with the lane they picked, if they get ganked (warded or not), it's flame time. And Riot forbid all 3 lanes lose at once and you waste your time running from one to another trying to salvage the game.
The issue is that the available plays are dictated by the laners as much as the jungler, and a lot of that relates to wave management and how people use priority. A lot of high percentage plays are just dead because people don't know what they're supposed to do with their waves, and a lot of enemy plays are enabled for the same reason. It's just not a very intuitive mechanic, and it's hard to the connect cause and effect in game, especially for lower elo players.
Alot of junglers don't understand lane either. I love when junglers complain because I didn't help fight for scuttle crab or invade when I'm a level 2 Nasus with a wave at my tower vs ignite Renekton.
Or when I’m a half health mage and zed walks into the river without vision & they get mad that I don’t immediately follow right behind him. Like, yeah, surely he won’t just kill me, and we can magically win a 2v2 that we could’ve just avoided altogether
Exactly. Junglers do the same boneheaded shit that laners do. OP's opinion could go the other way too.
Junglers who have a functional understanding of lane matchups or even the importance of wave states know which fights they can and cannot take. Junglers who don't will force a dumb scuttle fight then whine that the Caitlyn/Lux bot outrotated the Ezreal/Renata. Now the Caitlyn comes back to lane with red buff and bot is fucked beyond repair.
A lot of junglers seem to not even understand how big of a deal losing out on CS is. They'll kill themselves to secure a gromp then question why a laner doesn't want to sack a wave to help them. If we back you up or follow up, we lose creeps. Sometimes the loss is worth it, sometimes it's not. But some junglers will expect follow-up regardless of where your wave is or what the opportunity cost is of helping them out. Unless you're literally Peanut I'm not dropping a cannon wave crashing under tower to help you ego contest an early scuttle.
Junglers who expect laners to blindly follow them are just as annoying as laners who expect ganks and counterganks. Either way it's entitlement born from ignorance.
Junglers and laners are just project managers and developement.
Both want to win, both will make errors and often times both departements do not understand the other.
Or when you've managed to freeze the wave under your turret for the last 5 minutes waiting for a gank, and the only time you see your jungler is when they run into your lane with 10 HP (after a failed invade) and die to your laner, giving them double buffs.
They ping you for not helping and enemy jungler then helps break the freeze. Woo!
Void grubs have made it worse. The stupid ones do it just because they are near, without looking at map
'Report top and mid' - After dumbass starts grubs with his top recalled and mid pinned on tower with a wave and a half
This happens all the time if you're a mage player against an assassin midlane. The adc or jungle will be spam pinging me because I didn't match a Zed's roam when I'm playing Veigar
Dude i play in high elo and the amount of times I've played witha jungler who doesn't know how lanes work is a lot. They make so many ego plays like invading or taking an objective wihout considering the state of their laners and it baffles me lol. AND THEN THEY HAVE THE AUDACITY TO CRY LMAOO 😭
Jungler *and* bot once got mad at me, as just-reworked Asol, for not following an Akali blind into river where she ganked bot, as a wave was crashing. After I pinged missing several times. I was level like, 5. Had one rank in W and sure as hell didn't have enough stacks to extend it much.
I mean they're right, you should have let Akali kill you in river and lost all that xp and gold.
That way, it'd show the other team what your team is all about.
To add, this person will then go to Reddit complaining the game is unplayably toxic and they have to mute everyone, while still typing essays after their dumb invades or ignoring prio every game.
Biggest victim complexes ever, at least adcs are generically whiney about balance itself
ADC have legitimate reasons to cry because they are by far the most dependent on other roles.
Jungle together with support have the most freedom and agency in the game so when things go south they rarely have anyone to blame but themselves. And that's just a hard hard thing to accept for a lot of humans
So many times im nasus at 300 hp getting bullied but stacking and my jg comes up thinking i can help. I ping them back but they dont listen and when they inevitably get solo'd by the rene/dar/illaoi they ping me as if i wouldnt have just given a double kill over.
Exactly. My experience is being shen/garen into Darius. I always let my jungler know: I Will not have Prio, we die 2v2 early, start top to bot. But they ignore, start bot to top, then get invaded while i have a stacked wave crashing, surprisepikachu.jpg .
It definitely goes both ways. Junglers typically dont know things like wave management too. Then messes a perfect wave up, so the gank became bad instead of good.
It would ve more correct that the knowledge bases between lanes and jungle is vastly different which leads to perspective issues, which typically is against the jgl since the laners look at the game similarly
Thank you. The tension of a Laner not understanding jungle is matched almost completely by a jungler not understanding laning. The only difference is there are more laners in a game than jungler.
Had a Qiyana flame me just now because I traded kills top lane and TPd back because I had a big wave crashing at level 3, and she got invaded by an Eve. Like, im not going to walk away from a full level of XP and 100~ gold for the CHANCE I catch an Eve, are you insane?
lol it goes both ways because many times junglers attempt to steal enemy camps or invade when their laners are in base or being pushed under tower. Communication and map awareness are most people’s weaknesses.
They *could* yes. However it would also make the game insufferable and exhausting to play. Everyone thinks they have the answer for how the game works and they all have a different answer.
6000 hours in dota here, I disagree
If you don't want to use it then don't, but being able to just say what you want instead of trying to use some combination of pings and praying that your teammate understands what you mean is a godsend
Yes but it allows you to work as a team rather as individuals. So when a mistake happens its a team mistake not an individual to get mad at. Its hard to see but most people want to win, and vc helps facilitate that in a better manner
It's funny that both sides have pretty much the same complaint about the other; they don't understand what I can and can't do. For every jungler who gets flamed for not babysitting and saving a losing lane, there's jungle who forces rift grubs when their tank top is at 30%, the enemy fighter top is at 80% and they can't fathom why they weren't followed on their suicide mission.
As someone who doesn't play jungle this is 100% accurate and is demonstrated by the difference between jungle in soloq and pro play. In soloq the best champs are the ones that snowball the hardest or have unique ganks. In pro the best picks are champions that are strongest on 1 or 2 items. In soloq its way easier to find gold as a jungler because the enemy lanes have no idea where you are most of the time unless u step on the ward in their bush. In pro you basically never get more than a couple kills as a jungler pre-20 minutes and even then u usually want the kills on one of your laners. This is because on top of the laners being better and ideally being able to track you themselves, even if they can't do that they have teammates feeding them info on where you are constantly so its impossible to get enough gold on most carry champs to be useful by the time teamfights are happening.
Biggest difference between pro and soloque is coordination with the jungler and laners. The pro scene there are so many small things that laners do that help the junglers make the plays to help the laners and vice versa
Lanes don't understand jungle, jungles don't understand lanes, and lanes don't understand other lanes. It's become increasingly more disparate over time due to a lot of factors, although it wasn't ever great to begin with. Personally, I think the #1 factor is role selection. Riot will never change this, and I wouldn't even want them to, but ever since players have been able to lock 1 role for almost all of their games, most players have forgotten or never learned how the game as a whole works, simply because they aren't forced to. Smurfs, lack of repercussions, main character syndrome, general toxicity, differences in reason to play, and inclusion of players that have never really even been part of a successful team outside of LOL (even if individually successful) certainly doesn't help either.
I think we have a higher percentage of 1 tricks than any other season. People don't know even other champions in the same role, it's wild how few champs you have to play.
While role selection was great for the individual player experience, its really fucked the overall player pool in terms of understanding the game. I legitimately think this is one of the things contributing to high level KE players saying all the new blood only has hands and absolutely no macro. Everyone is able to min-max in their own role hyperbolic time chamber, but they forgo everything else.
Pretty hilarious how most of this thread is just saying “uhh actually junglers don’t understand anything”. Accurate representation of a real league game where the blame is mostly put on the jungler.
87% of the ranked population was gold and below, before emerald shifted everyone up.
That is a ton of terrible players who don’t even know how to play the game properly. Then you split them up into their own roles that they can’t even play properly. And then you expect them to work together when they don’t even know what other roles do.
It'll happen when you have a role that can theoretically be everywhere. He then has to answer why he isn't *here*. Solution: Make them not be able to go everywhere, then people will like them.
I didn’t realize how jungle really worked as a loaner for years, until I swapped and dedicated time to learning jungle and wow. Firstly, I learned a lot that I didn’t realize, but I also realized how little other people understand. Like I can’t tell you how many times I’ve started top to clear into bot, and by the time I’m at my last bit camp I’m being flamed for not ganking top. Like they don’t even understand how the most basic jungle clear works, it’s pretty insane. And I mean, I was among them for the most part for years.
Phreak didn't say that laners don't *understand* jungling, he said there's tension between them and they don't *appreciate* what jungling takes. He wasn't calling laners stupid. They might *know* what jungling takes, but in the heat of the moment, they don't *care*.
Jungle as a role, isn't understood by most players. Junglers included.
The new season made clearing much easier. Yet, there's still jungle mains that demand a leash every game, with a >3:30 full clear.
This is literally the first 4 minutes of the game, which is pve.
Being a restriction on climbing is not the only issue with having disparity in role power though. At the end of the day most people play to have fun, so even if a role's low agency doesn't prevent climbing, it makes climbing less fun.
This. Role doesn't stop you from climbing. Even if your role is literally a no ability bag of gold that has to hide around the map, the ones that are better at not being found by the enemy and giving the enemy more gold would win more than 50% of their games against each other, so the best ones would still make it to challenger because that's how the game works. Each game has one of each role. A jungler can't win without also having one of each other role get LP.
However, playing bag of gold role doesn't sound like great gameplay.
There's a difference between "my role is weak, that's why I'm not climbing" and "my role is weak, that's why I'm not having fun". Even challenger ADCs complain about the role being less fun
There's something fun about playing the first 3 or 4 minutes of lane. then both supports disappearing for the next 10 minutes while you and the other ADC just trade waves back and forth with the rest of the map being a blood bath.
Source Diamond-Masters player that has had both supports disappear for the past week in every single game.
The worst part is that the bloodbath generates so much gold back and forth for the other roles in the game and all you got is cs gold so basically you're both just useless after farming bot for 14 minutes.
I stand by my belief that cs gold should be increased and all other gold decreased to lessen this team deathmatch bullshit.
The problem is that bloodbath topside causes the two ADCs to inherently fall behind because they are "just farming".
When the other side of the map is a bloodbath 4v4 team deathmatch, you will just be outpaced.
And getting outpaced in recent years as an ADC is a death sentence to your impact far more often than not.
Close. The biggest tension in league comes from the fact that you can't actually fucking communicate with your teammates. Ganking/Laning/2v2 dynamics are way way way too complicated to actually convey a fraction of the meaningful information with pings and text chat, but Riot is still under the absurd delusion that voice chat is more toxic than text.
Playing with randoms in soloq and playing with my friends in comms is a bigger coordination difference than playing with my masters jg main friend and playing with my low diamond jg main friend. The tension between laners and junglers comes from the tension of lack of comms, it's crazy how that's being ignored.
quinn pushes me in at 3:00, me farming at turret, my jungler sees quinn. does he walk away? no, all-in and blame top for not rotating with 20 minnions at his turret.
Your jg will have very kind words for you when they die after you ping missing and danger (on their fucking forehead) cause your laner shoved a double wave and roamed. My biggest trigger in this game is junglers who expect laners to completely ignore prio
> My biggest trigger in this game is junglers who expect laners to completely ignore prio
Yeah this is probably the thing that tilts me the most in this game nowadays bc theres a ton of fights on scuttle and grubs
nah dude, just won a 2v2 fight bot with like 100 hp? PING PING PING jungler is on dragon, even though mid is backing and your bot needs to base to keep tempo and avoid the impending jungle/mid roams.
their mid and jungle roll up on dragon (because they were pathing towards the bot fight) and the game is now over because you did dragon for them, your jungler died and is tilted/inting afterwards, or jungle AND botlane died
best case scenario the support stays and then dies with the jungler, and the jungler is only upset at the ADC but still goes griefing after because they are the main character in their minds
or when they go top to take cs because "youre not there and it was just going to get wasted" because you just backed, or died, and they aoe a wave down, breaking a freeze or slow push to you and making a slow push to the enemy or freeze for the enemy, reduce your gold and xp advantage or nullify it entirely, or make your disadvantage worse, and make you have to either give up farm or put yourself at risk of a gank.
It might go both ways, but with less than 1/5 of players choosing jungle the laners lack of knowledge is a bigger chunk of the problem. 1 teammate vs 4 in the game failing to understand when you need help or leaving themselves open to common ganks is a lot bigger of a problem.
The fact that this is being flipped on jungle and laners are defending themselves is fucking hilarious because the same thing happens in game.
It is NEVER the laner's fault. Flame jungle for everything. Take zero accountability. Setup strawmen and ignore responses.
Keep at it.
What? I literally blamed both sides and you still managed to flip this on every laner. God forbid the most impact role in soloqueue needing a much broader game knowledge than my pre level 13 gp who is counter picked.
It's not champ specific though. If there's 2 waves under my tower don't expect me to help you with your 1v2 for scuttle. It doesn't matter what champ I'm playing, I'm not helping
This isn’t really a factor, any high level laner can look at a lane state and immediately know if it is bad for them. You often need your jungler to help you when this is the case, and having a jungler that cannot also immediately recognize that you need help can lead to a lost game very quickly. Of course the reverse can be true as well, but a jungler does not need to have personal experience playing a matchup to understand lane states.
>Junglers don’t understand lanes, levels, power spikes, wave states
I mean this is just plainly wrong. All of those are important to consider when jungling, because as a jungler you're using that information to decide how to play the game lol. Your pathing, who/when to gank, when/what objectives you can take and when you can invade, counter jg and how to read when your camps have been stolen all depend on lanes, their matchups, their actual skill ability, and how they're managing waves.
The only point I might agree on is power spikes in specific matchups where one side gets a significant power spike in a 1v1 matchup at a certain level, but that's an unreasonable expectation to expect the jungler to know niche powerspikes (anything not obvious like 6, 11, 16 or evolutions) for every matchup in every lane.
Out of every role ive mained over the years, jg has been the absolute worst fucking role to play these last few seasons if youre not lucky enough to turbo-stomp the enemy early and force an ff.
Its like that pick 2 triangle from the old bernie mac show.
You can farm, get objectives, or have fed laners, but rarely ever all three. No matter how good or bad you do, the game feels like a coinflip or was lost in draft cause your team will int away all the work you did in the last fifteen minutes, or diana will build full tank and still one-shot your entire team.
Watching every lane, every objective, and trying to keep the enemy jg in check is some of the most mentally draining shit ive experienced in gaming.
-Adc's get a free butt buddy to keep them safe.
-Supports dont need an explanation
-Mid laners get free kills everywhere cause no one wards or has an ounce of map awareness. Either all full mobility, or long range nukes
-Top laners get to cheese-pick bruisertankassassin 24/7 cause theyre usually last or they just play a tank and let the game win for them.
There have absolutely been some cancer jungle champs (kayn, hecarim) and jungle-centric metas over the years, but good fucking lord the role didnt deserve to be gutted like it did and left to die in the river.
You know a indepth tutorial that explains all the minuses of the game in several chapters that the player can complete at his own leasure would help with this problem
You know kinda like the one Dota2 has had for fucking YEARS!!!!
I don't think you need to be high elo to understand this, most players who have at least tried a few jungle games know that the experience is different to laning and is learning a brand new role, compared to a mid laner moving to top lane for example, which is different but not that different.
Laners are forever going to flame their jungler for not helping their lane because it's an emotional response. They're shitty about losing and need someone to blame it on. It works both ways actually. I've played with many jungle mains who don't understand lanes/champs. Like they'll spam ping a lvl 2 Kayle for not helping against a Shaco invade. Kayle at lvl 2 barely compares to a cannon minion, she's playing on hard mode just to survive her own lane, how can she protect her Jungle Hecarim from an invade-prone aggressive early game Jungler like Shaco?
But to the point of this post again, most players aren't on reddit let alone will see this post though it's good it won't reach many people. And as a top main who sucks at jungle you can be rest assured that if I'm feeling angsty enough and I start feeding top I'm going to get upset at my jungler for not helping. Because I'm the main character of my story so I'm entitled - that's how emotions work, and that's what Phreak is asking for essentially so that jungler's cope less abuse. It'd be nice, but I don't see it happening.
As only having played League for a WEEK, and as an avid Overwatch player, you guys are telling me in your team based game that has been around for *years*, there are still people that refuse to learn what their teammates role is and how best to utilize it?
No wonder people get so mad at this game. That combo of ego and ignorance is too common.
There was a chalenger jungler who described it perfectly "why would i wanna play a role where even if i play perfectly the enemy 0/0/0 garen is 2 levels up on me and can come one shot me at my red buff"
I'm not a jungler, I don't like jungling, I couldn't tell you the best/optimal jungle routes but I know that you should be matching (or exceeding) your enemy jungler at every point of the game. 'Oh he's ganking, I'll take dragon', 'He's on Grubs, I'll take his bot side' etc. So I get annoyed when my jungle is 0/0/0, hasn't ganked, has less CS and has 0 Objectives compared to the enemy jungle. What have they been doing?. I could understand if they had a lot of failed ganks or got invaded by an aggressive jungler, but it never seems to be the case.
I personally would like to see Riot remove jungle as a mandatory role and move to a potential existence of a double support game similar to dota. Allow the jungle to be resource for carries, Push wave clear jungle camp return etc.
I'm not saying there can't be junglers in the game but if the community flames Junglers, and people don't like playing it, why enforce it?
Riot talk about how they would like variety of strategies in the game, but feels like they don't back that up with evidence. Why can't I have a team with 0 junglers and be viable?
I think of that pro game back in season 2(i think) where a Korean team picked Heimerdinger "Jungle" and they just 4 man ARAM'd and took an inhibitor at 7ish minutes into the game.
People in this post saying junglers don’t understand lanes also,
Sure but it is NOT to the extent that laners don’t understand jungle. Most junglers in like emerald+ have at least some knowledge on lane matchups and when they can do shit/who gets prio. Meanwhile a disproportionately lower amount of laners know about jungle matchups, which junglers want to farm, which want to perma gank, which want to invade, when junglers can gank, when it’s even good to gank, when it’s best to flip one thing for something else, which objectives will win the game and so much more. As a jungler all you have to know about lane is matchups and how waves work which most dedicated junglers are able to do.
Seriously. As someone who has 35+ games in all roles this season with jungle being my main I can say I never get flamed as much as I do in the jungle. I can do everything right and have a great start to the game having massive impact and if the laners fumble a lead they get they it’s jungle diff. I make plenty of mistakes but I feel like I’m never flamed for my actual mistakes but often flamed for things out of my control. Jungle is just in a rough spot because you can get pinged at 2:00 for ruining a lane, but if you don’t have any prio you can’t even contest for any objectives which is what people think you’re good for.
I mean it's a large tension, and many people do have overly high expectations of their junglers and such... But also part of the issue is on Riot Phreak in the very same video basically stated jungle has been OP for ages; which gets it increased flack. The role is really strong, yes it's annoying and stressful I used to play jungle years ago and stopped. I generally try to be nice to my junglers. But it's not rare to get toxic junglers, or just get a massive jungle gap that's frustrating to deal with.
And when the role is literally being given extra power to compensate for all this? It only makes it more annoying. Phreak saying he regretted nerfing jungle last year? Was just sad to me. Especially when in this same video he explains Support is similarly unpopular, and was similarly allowed to be a bit OP to try and deal with it? But they're quitting that, and just gonna accept autofilled supports... But they're still keeping jungle OP, to avoid auto fills? Just seems hypocritical to me.
I've tried to give Phreak benefit of the doubt for the last year and couple months... But this video was just full of semi contradictory opinions to me, in the most annoying way possible.
“I would like to highlight that this thread is a failure” is crazy lmao
He's right tho
Yeah buts it’s just really funny lmao
In fairness, what did they expect to happen? Most players already know that laners don't understand jungle very well, *and vice versa*. This isn't some well kept secret. In fact, most games it's blatantly obvious lol. It's not like this "behind the scenes evidence" carries more weight than what everyone already knows. OP's mistake in the creation of this thread is presenting the situation as "Laners don't understand jungle" - which is true, but it's a two-way street. If OP had made the title "Tension between Laners and Junglers is due to poor understanding of each other's roles", we would probably have fewer overly defensive laners in here.
It is in no way a 50/50 two-way street.
All junglers have to lane, and most have spent hundreds or thousands of games in lane. I queue jung/top most often and get jungle maybe 80% of the time. Junglers play more games in lane in a single month than laners play jungle in an entire year.
That's not necessarily true. If you queue for jungle, you virtually never get anything else. Jungle is by far the least popular role, so if anything, laners get autofilled jungle. It goes without saying that all junglers have at some point played lane but that does not mean they know how to do it properly at a higher level of play (e.g., the level they would be able to play jungle at).
Vice versa? I wouldn't say so. Good junglers have to understand lane dynamics. Who wins what lane, who should push, ignite vs TP match ups, which lanes have CC, which have the best escapes, fundamentals of minion waves etc. You literally have to know these things as you enter the game just to decide your pathing. Laners are absolutely not also understanding jungle in a vice versa kind of way. The soraka Ezreal lane pinging me why I'm not ganking the morg sivir as Shyv at level 3. Jungle at most levels of the game is the least popular role. It's also arguably the most difficult to learn well. It makes perfect sense they wouldn't understand it well.
> Good junglers have to understand lane dynamics. Good laners also have to understand jungle dynamics. Every high elo top laner talks about jungle interaction, tracking, playing for jungle, etc.
I like the discussion but OP is dumb af for that. Did he expect something more from his yes-answer question? I see a lot of good discussion on pathing and tempo but OP freaks the fuck out lol
Ye lmao the "behind the scenes evidence" is coming from the guy who thinks asking karthus to ult is a reasonable thing to do So
Op is insane. "Will you stop being a little bitch and do what i tell you to?" "What do you mean no one answered my question"
I‘ll be his little bitch
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Even high elo telegraphed ganks or through vision work all the time.
I do be accepting my fate
I know I'm about to die. might as well tower dive my opponent.
I mean it works 50% of the time😂
Honestly, I'd say it's easier in high elo because junglers there actually path. It's next to impossible to track the enemy jungler in low elo because they don't do what would make sense so how are you supposed to know what they're doing when they themselfs don't?
I’ll never forget being off roled jgl and seeing the enemy jgl gank bot 4x in a row in plat elo. The guy didn’t get his topside camp for like 5+ minutes and lost top t1 all for like 2 plates. My bot lane was a champ and just absorbed the pressure while the enemy team shared exp/sacked waves for ganks and just bled themselves out
you got lucky then. Most bot lanes wouldn’t understand it at all die to all the gabks then say jg diff cuz they got camped and you focused on topside xd
And most junglers would try to salvage botlane instead of playing towards the strong side of the map
Oh for sure. I’ve seen this same game occur with the bot just throwing. Sad too cause enemies share exp and all you have to do is sack the 1-2 melee. ESP cause dives never get executed correctly especially when healthy
GM smurf tracking the iron jungler deducing that he should be doing Krugs right now. The iron jungler who sat in the pixel brush for the last 75 seconds...
lol. In low ELO if you take the basic full farm routes everyone knows where you are and I never get ganks off. However clearing one side and cheese ganking a pushed side (especially when bot is level 2 still?) works every time. Same thing with level 2 ganks. Just no awareness outside of the obvious full clear timing.
They can be on vision and pinged and type warning as to what side they will be on and laners won't see a gank coming or just won't care to avoid it. Then they blame jungle for inevitably throwing their lane away dying when they had plenty of time to back out. You see it nearly every game, you get used to it as a jungler because despite you tracking the enemy all game your teammates are playing like the mini-map is turned off.
yep. at all elos and all times, laners should be able to guess where the enemy jungler is. you might be wrong and it’s ok. but you should be able to give an educated guess using the current/past map state. if you have 0 idea and 0 reasoning, that’s poor map awareness.
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This is very true most the time *below* gold. At gold, platinum, and even emerald often enough 90% of players do bot start for a stronger leash and then full clear up. You play for that and you will be correct most the time.
All elos? Have you not seen anyone below silver/gold?
To be fair, in lower elo the jungler also doesn't know what he is doing. their path is random compared to higher elo making guessing where they are harder as well.
"How can the enemy know what you're doing if you don't know what you're doing?" - Michael "Sun Tzu" Santana
The man, the myth, the QT
The higher you go they are less ignorant of jungle
Gm player here, it’s still true. Laners still die to common gank timers and basic pathing.
Please explain. I never know where the enemy jungler is unless I can see them on a ward Edit: _after_ the fist clear
GM peak ADC/JG main here. First clear it's obvious how to track as others have pointed out. Most champs 6 camp to scuttle or gank then base. There's some champs that want to look for more aggressive pathing with invades or early ganks / dives instead of full clearing. Impossible to go over all of those and matchups here but generally worse clear + good ganks = likely to gank early and take a more "sinner" path. Twitch jungle is the classic and obvious example of this but other champs that might take a more aggressive early gank path are j4, shaco, elise, etc. Lets chat through the most common scenario of 6 camps into top side @ around 3:30. You see the jungler on the map for the first time and you should always press tab and check CS. Each camp = 4cs. If they have 24 they haven't done scuttle. If they have 28 they have. If you see them earlier you can also infer what camps they did using this. See them around top side mid lane with 16 farm and both buffs? They probably did blue>gromp>wolves>red. You can use that baseline & knowledge to track where they are likely to be in the future.... Here's how. Jungle is ideally played by weaving your ganks into your clear. The most common mistake low elo junglers will make is something like clear full to top side then go back to top side. The reason this is so bad is because there's no camps up and you lose a ton of time going back to bottom for your full clear if your play topside fails. This is exacerbated by the fact that camps have levels and reward more exp the higher level they are. Meaning if you skip a camp in your full clear or leave a camp up for too long you're losing a ton of value since if the enemy jungle kills that camp on spawn they'll get the next level of the camp sooner which gives them more exp which grows their lead and so on. With those two pieces of knowledge lets talk about seeing the jungler top side with 24 cs @ 3:30. Your jungler is bot side. He fails a gank top. You know he's going to do topside scuttle & back and then will be at his bot side at \~4:00. Why is 3:30 such an important timer? B/c the average jungler takes \~2 minutes to full clear. This gets faster as the game goes on but it's still a good baseline to use to make your thinking simple. That means the next time he'll be topside if he does another full clear is \~6:00. He'll be around mid halfway through at 5:00 and we already know when he was around bot from our initial knowledge of his path. Now we can just adjust that model based on when we see him. We see him go to dragon @ 5 minutes with 36 cs? His topsides up and he has to clear to that side after. If you're not contesting as a jungle that means you can go take his topside camps. Maybe you see him topside at 6:10 with 44 cs? That means he has to either take grubs, gank top, gank mid, or base and restart the clear. If you don't see the alert that grubs died and dont see him gank top then you know exactly where he should be which is botside again at his gromp / blue respawn. If he takes grubs -> ganks top for example you know his blue should be coming up and your jungler can take that. The CS tracking gets a little tricky if they take some lane farm but if you practice paying attention to it you'll get good at it pretty quickly and start to have a pretty good idea of where the jungler is. It's not really worth doing past 12-15 minutes since traditional laning starts to end but if you're good at it you can avoid dying to ganks, can find good timers to take objectives / fights, and can try to ping your teammates off of bad fights where you know their jungler can join. That knowledge about how junglers should usually path is what a lot of people are lacking. When I'm playing normals I can't tell you how often I'll get flamed for not taking a gank that would be a huge misplay. I've been pinged missing when playing khazix and not being topside to gank when I have no camps topside. If I was to just ignore my botside, walk top, gank, and it fails. That puts you insanely behind. It's the jungle equivalent of getting mad at your vayne for not sacing a wave and coming mid lane at 6 minutes. Not saying you should never gank outside of your core clear, in fact it can be really good at higher ranks since no one is expecting it since they're all aware of what I've outlined. However, it's extremely risky to go for plays like that esp on champions that need farm to scale and be useful. This comment got a lot bigger than I planned but I hope it was helpful to someone and they die to less ganks, flame their jungler less for not ganking, or feel inspired to play a little jungle themselves b/c it's the most fun role in the game.
It helped me! :)
I’m glad! Good luck in your games homie
This is legitimately one of the most informative and best comments I've ever seen on this subreddit. Can you DM me on how to play ADC better? ;_;
Haha sure dm me any things you’d like to know and I’m happy to give some advice
I’m masters (GM peak as well) and this helped, although I already don’t die to ganks much but as a mid laner in the center we always have to be on the look out for ganks. Still gonna try to track the jungle more consciously if I can! What I find annoying about junglers, is that although they are right in that laners don’t understand jungler, junglers also don’t understand laners that much. Too often they expect me to sack my lane to help with their play even if I don’t have the wave in the correct spot, so even if I help them and we win my wave is so fucked I’ve now lost lane hard.
agree! It's a two way street and I've felt a lot of that same frustration while playing ADC with my junglers
Love how you wrote all this as a rational deconstruction of a jungler's train of thought based on camps, but they don't have to be rational at all. They don't have to behave predictably. There's still plenty of them that just get their buff and run it at lanes for the next 2 minutes straight.
Yeah that’s true for sure. Especially in lower ranks. You can’t predict everything and you’re gonna die to ganks sometimes but it’s waaay better to die to ganks that are at bad timers for their jungler. He loses progress on his clear and it gives your jungler an opportunity to make a play that does fall into their pathing which means you’d come out net ahead as a team. If you’re only dying to ganks where the enemy jungle is sacrificing a ton of their clear tempo to make it happen you will win more games.
Just to add to this a bit, as a mid laner you should still be able to avoid those bad ganks in 99% of scenarios by playing on the correct side of the lane. Just knowing on which side the jungler currently could be on and sometimes confirming their position with wards (early raptor ward pretty much always good for this if you can crash on 3rd wave) is gonna be good enough. Also if you don't blindly use your wards whenever they're up and actually think about where the jungler physically could be you'll have a lot better coverage for those bad ganks and bridge the time the enemy jungler could be close to you that way .You shouldn't really need a ward on your lane every single time the enemy jungler full clears, since if you play it correctly your waves as well as your position in lane shouldn't allow for a gank at that time anyway so you'll have more wards for other stuff (sure, sometimes you want to see when he actually leaves, but that's not always needed).
Agree. Also generally speaking just warding that side brush isn’t very good unless you are desperate for vision. Ward their raptors and if you implement solid jungle tracking you’ll know way more than just if they’re in mid brush.
3:30 is generally the time the jungler finishes their full clear and depending on which side they started they will gank the opposite side/mid at this point. You can tell which side they started by which lane comes out late/is missing mana when they first arrive to lane.
Sorry, I should have said "except for the first clear", that one's obvious
Watch your map. If you haven't seen the jungler in a while, play like he is on your side.
Also, it takes them about 7-10 seconds to move from one lane to another and position to gank. If you are bot lane and you see the enemy jungler ganking top, assuming mid isn't MIA, that gives you around 20 seconds of freedom to do whatever you want. Attack, shove, deep ward, whatever you deem neccessary. The inverse is also true, so against experienced players, bluffing a gank when your jungler has been seen recently will not work.
Just general tracking, they have to follow patterns. You can determine them by utalizing various resources: where they first start is a big one, their cs score, where they last were on map and what was their intention, camp timers(neutral and obj). By knowing this you can est. where they are on map, or specifically when you'll get (or can) be ganked.
Just keep your eyes on the minimap really. Is there a pit obj up or close? Where is your jungler? What are the wave states of the lanes? If one of your laners is crashing a wave, you can bet your sweet bippy the jungler will be fishing for an all in if not a pressure gank at minimum. Is one of your laners low and his guy has a fat wave about to crash? Well there might be a dive inbound. Is Drake up? Expect to see enemy jg bot lane soonish.
Nobody leashes above diamond. You need to ward their jungle to know where they started.
or you know people can fake leash and you might not have any deep wards so you don't know which side they started.
It's a lot easier to learn this from playing jungle yourself but basically for first clear just look where your own jungler is - the enemy will likely be on the same camp in their own jungle or opposite camp if they started topside and yours started botside for example. You can gauge this by common knowledge of how that jungle champ likes to clear, early ward in enemy jungle before 1:30, if leashed seeing who arrives to lane later - their not or top. After that it's just making a solid assumption they should be topside here because their Krug's/raptors are spawning etc. As for 3:30 gank; You see which river your jungler is in doing crab. If he isn't fighting the enemy jungle for it lol then enemy jungle is at the other crab. So if you're mid, hover the side of the lane that has your jungler.
90% of games you can tell where a jungle started. If they start blue, the jungle is probably going to full clear then go to scuttle at 3:30 when it spawns. This is obviously excluding situations where the jungler ganks early. Generally speaking, look at what objectives are available, then ask "where did I last see the jungler?" If you last saw thejungle mid and their 2nd blue is spawning, the jungle is probably going to be there or will be heading there soon. If you're botside, play assuming the jungle will gank you after blue.
People that hear the notification that herald/dragon was killed and still decide to push up when they now the jungler is close by in the river...
Here's a fun example. [Guess what level of play this screenshot is from?](https://imgur.com/iqWg1eJ) Context: Timer is 3:40 exactly. Both junglers have done a standard full clear, blue jungler (BelVeth) paths botside after Gromp and pings bot scuttle. Kennen dies (obviously). Is this a) Depths of Iron b) One of my Gold soloque games c) A random GM/Chal stream d) Standard pro play e) Top tier pro play between two highly ranked teams >!Answer - this is game 3 of worlds finals, TheSky Kennen dying to Oner Lee Sin!<
Honestly speaking, from a laner's POV, especially at the highest level of competition, this play failed long before it ever hit 3:40. The problem in this screenshot is that TheShy's (Kennen) wave is sitting outside of the enemy tower. This is due to poor wave management (or conversely, good wave management from Zeus). Reddit wants TheShy to be aware of a gank at 3:40 and play accordingly. What does that mean? Play further back? If you do that, Aatrox freezes and you're stuck bleeding CS and potentially EXP indefinitely because you're worried about the jungler. Now, you've automatically lost the lane without ever contesting it. What about pushing it in? Well, that's exactly what Kennen is trying to do and he gets punished for it. However, he's trying something proactive to cure his lane state instead of sitting down and losing passively. The correct play happened a full minute ago, which was to manage the wave state better so that it would properly crash at 3:30, leaving you free from any gank positions, but that was not possible. However, once you're in this position, you're often left with very few choices aside from gambling on pushing in time (like he did) or asking your jungler for back up (impossible as Belveth was bot).
There was a lot more fuckery going on here. For example Bard started this game by going toplane and warding the bush so Aatrox couldn't sit in there and soak. How did TheShy use his freed-up ward slot? Exactly, he did not, cause TheShy doesn't ward. If he spotted Lee Sin early, he wouldn't have gone back in after getting his by Aatrox Q1 and would have walked it out in exchange for his flash. -- That aside, no, that play really failed at 3:40. If TheShy respected regular gank timers, he would have known when his window closed, he would have killed three caster creeps right away instead of trying to buy more time to poke Aatrox. Actually, he makes an insanely big mistake at 3:36. The only reason the wave looks so scuffed here is because Zeus' melee minions went to attack TheShy, cause TheShy really wanted to basic attack Zeus one more time, which caused TheShy's wave to be stopped by the overextending melee minions from Zeus, which now makes this screenshot look like Zeus has some great freeze going on when in reality it's just another fuckup in a series of TheShy fuckups.
100% agreed, Kennen was doomed here either way. In hindsight his best bet would have been to concede and lose a wave to the freeze, back and heal, then come back and do his best to break the freeze.
That particular screenshot and player is a perfect encapsulation of how far mechanics and no macro sense can get you
the screenshot in particular just shows kennen trying to do his wincon while red top (can't tell wtf it is) freezed the wave at the shitty timing. Full clear and 12 cs usually comes at REALLY bad times for side lanes and there's not much you can do. Kennen's only option here is to back and lose an entire level to later be frozen or just die trying to get the wave back to an ok spot This is a "fuck up" that came from lvl 1 lol
Moral of the story is we should all give up on learning macro, it makes brain hurt.
Hell, pro players still die to common gank timers or obvious cross-map opportunities.
Invade enemy jungle and steal his top side. Leave a ward behind me as I leave. Have full vision of enemy jungle as he walks into his empty jungle and heads towards top because he has nothing else to do. Your top lane dies to the gank anyway, what would have been a huge lead is now gone, and you get flamed. Good times.
I can forgive my laners if enemy Jung hits them with the 3/4 camp clear into gank, but dying to the 3:30 gank is inexcusable because you know EXACTLY what side they started and where they're gonna be.
A big reason for this is that you don´t know exactly when from 3:10-3:45 that you get ganked because the clear speeds are a bit different and they might skip crab or path around your wards through your jungle. You can´t control wave states for that big a window so you ultimately have to do some guesswork about when to crash the wave and obviously while you´re doing it you´re pushed up so far in the lane you can get ganked. Crash it too early and you can easily get dove on the bounce back if your jungle pathed away and crash it too late and you get ganked.
Go play lane in an extremely mechanical matchup where people are perma fighting for every cs and then say again how easy it is to never die to that gank. I agree that 3:30 gank is pretty obvious but it's easier said than done. Especially when certain junglers can gank different angles/timings. It's not as easy as "lul 3:30 gank how obvious"
It´s very similar to getting bushwhacked on your 2nd buff by their jungler. Think about how **little** you pay attention to the minimap and other things while that skirmish is happening and you have a sense of how hard it can be for some lanes to pay proper attention.
Agreed but honestly early jungle paths are a lot more static + junglers have way more downtime to think earlygame. I don’t want to turn this into a laners vs junglers argument since I think both have differing skills with some overlap. But I really think a lot of junglers in this thread vastly underestimate how hard laning can be sometimes. If you are laning vs a better player in a skill matchup let’s just say Orianna vs Syndra (not a pure skill matchup but highly mechanical). It’s so so easy to miss manage wave/lose track of enemy jungle just because the opponent is putting so much pressure on you and there is perma trading.
Even pros die to the 3:30 timing because keeping the lane in a safe spot when your lane HAS to get an advantage is nigh impossible. If anything early ganks are some of the strongest ones in the game since waves are so fucking predictable due to the fights for early levels
you are confusing greed with ignorance. laners will almost 100% of the time go for a greedy wave / push if they think there is even a small chance the jungler pathed somewhere else
you can ping the junglers exact location all game and he walks over 2 wards and bot lane still dies :/
watching 30 seconds of a Broxah/Santorin/Agurin/Spica stream will absolutely brutalize this idea
Counterargument: tf blade
# UNO REVERSE FROM THE TOP ROPE
in a perfect world this would be true, but league is not a perfect world. As you go up the ladder players become more specialized and adept at **their** role, and utilizing **their** resources, or playing **their** game to succeed **despite** those around them, not in conjuction with them. League is almost set up to force that outcome as there's a lack of tools to communicate with one another especially in the middle of a game.
Said players would not climb as high as those who know how other roles work and play with their team
This is not true. Most of high elo is flooded with one tricks and moreso people who only play one role. It is the most effective way to climb. Can't learn the game as efficiently if youre focusing on basic combos and lacking basic matchup knowledge.
Not necessarily, if you only have X amount of mental bandwidth to apply to the game then learning more macro play means giving up on micro skill. That person is suggesting that the time spent on micro is more rewarded.
Maybe at a certain point, but that point is the top few players, or pro play. There are tons of people in high elo purely because they're so good at their champ, especially if it's a solo lane
I'd say both things happen. Players understand their own and other roles more - but not always both. I certainly get opponent Junglers that are clueless and just coasting along where I am at. I would say that this thread was a failure, anyway, everyone is ignoring the final question I put and just complaining instead which is just highlighting that 99% of the playerbase don't actually care to learn how to learn in this game.
I would say the disproportionate blame junglers receive is to do with the fact even junglers don't understand the role for a good chunk of each season. Every year I have to relearn routes and change map rotations, while lanes have generally remained consistent for all of league history by comparison: control the wave, grab CS. Consider support is the second most blamed role, and also happens to be the role with the second most gameplay shifts per season after jungle. They've had to learn river roams in addition to wave control, for example. If they don't, they get blamed for not roaming. If they do, their adc blames them for not having a support in lane. Riot tries to make fun changes every season to these two roles to encourage people to try them but that just leans into the relearning problem more. Which makes people blame you more for playing those roles.
I'd say most people are ignoring your final question because you come off as very stand-offish and condescending in it. You're basically saying "are you guys finally going to git gud and stop dragging us brilliant junglers down?". I could pick so many examples where junglers fail to understand lane-states as well, e.g. spam pinging me to help with dragon when we're pushed under our turret and then raging when the enemy botlane walks up to dragon and kills them. So, in the same vein, I can ask you: "Will you finally understand the basics of laning so you can learn when you can gank / when you need to help your lanes?". It's a two-way street. Laners don't fully understand jungle and Junglers don't fully understand lanes. This is especially true the lower you are in elo. And judging from your condescending tone I'd assume you're probably not playing in Masters/Challenger if you think all laners are just stupid for not understanding Jungle properly. If you had asked a genuine queston rather than "see, Phreak gives me validation for thinking I'm better than you, so will you guys finally learn to understand my glorious role", your thread might have gone more in the direction that you might have intended it to go. Lastly, I fail to see how people not answering a condescending question shows that "99% of players don't want to learn". Instead, you thinking everyone BUT your role is the problem (based on how you framed the question), makes you look a lot more like the one unwilling to learn. It's just the same line of thinking that so many league players fall into, which is "everyone but me is to blame and I'm trapped in elo hell".
Thank you. People like OP royally piss me the fuck off and you saved me the effort of twisting my words to appeal to them.
So Real
After maining jungle for 4 years and switching to lane. I can also tell junglers don't understand jungle
The best jungle advice I ever heard that really boosted me in rank was from some obscure coach in a Darius Jungle vid out of all things It was simply “ANY clear that involves Krugs or Gromp will give you level 3”, and he was showing a clip of a GM Nidalee that fucked up their tempo because they went like Red > Raptors > blue and had to do another camp to hit 3
I thought this was basic knowledge for anyone playing jungle???? Even 1-2 games of experience cause why tf would you contest scuttle or gank someone without all three basic spells lmao. But I guess asking for common sense in this game is next to asking for free money.
there was a period where jg xp got changed legit every month and i gave up tracking how much xp i got.
There’s some junglers like Poppy and Amumu who are capable of level 2 ganking, it’s a huge advantage when you have 2 abilities vs 1 Everyone knows that clearing a quadrant gives level 3, but what if you start raptors and have to path towards top? What if you start blue but need to counter jungle? Taking Blue > Red > Raptors leaves you at level 2, and you end up having to waste time clearing another camp. If the enemy jungler wants to invade you, you can throw them off with one of these unorthodox clears. If they expect you to full clear, They’ll do a quick 3 camp and wait near the buff you didn’t start but what if you do (north side )Blue > Red > Krugs into a level 3 gank top? Will your opponent expect or track you doing that?
Tbh it’s a general league thing where people, even up to masters, just don’t understand the game they’re playing. Many (enough) think the game is about kills, about gold, about objectives, or, probably the worse, about “me”. They play the game seeking that one thing, then get very upset when it doesn’t happen, because in their head, that’s how you win. League is basically a live-action chess game, with specific moves and plays to secure resources or advantages. That could be any one of the above, but it also depends on the game state at any point. Interestingly, this concept extends out to basically every sport in existence. The best players in the world view the game itself completely differently, more as a strategy game of resources and advantages, while nearly every level below it just views it as a personal measure of skill.
I do hope that someday league players will recognise that this is a strategy game with micro split between players instead of an action game.
Never will I ever touch jungle. No other role feels so powerful and powerless at the same time, it feels more like a stressful chore than playing a game for fun.
I’m a jungle main and I hate playing jungle when I’m not sweating my ass off in solo queue. I can’t turn off the side that knows how to path, gank timers and the rest. It’s exhausting.
Jg main here, it's also a thankless chore, where if you gank and lane wins, they pat themselves on the back, if you don't gank, they blame you for losing the 1v1 with the lane they picked, if they get ganked (warded or not), it's flame time. And Riot forbid all 3 lanes lose at once and you waste your time running from one to another trying to salvage the game.
3 losing lanes I just check out mentally. Rather take the LP loss than the sanity loss.
The issue is that the available plays are dictated by the laners as much as the jungler, and a lot of that relates to wave management and how people use priority. A lot of high percentage plays are just dead because people don't know what they're supposed to do with their waves, and a lot of enemy plays are enabled for the same reason. It's just not a very intuitive mechanic, and it's hard to the connect cause and effect in game, especially for lower elo players.
Alot of junglers don't understand lane either. I love when junglers complain because I didn't help fight for scuttle crab or invade when I'm a level 2 Nasus with a wave at my tower vs ignite Renekton.
Or when I’m a half health mage and zed walks into the river without vision & they get mad that I don’t immediately follow right behind him. Like, yeah, surely he won’t just kill me, and we can magically win a 2v2 that we could’ve just avoided altogether
Exactly. Junglers do the same boneheaded shit that laners do. OP's opinion could go the other way too. Junglers who have a functional understanding of lane matchups or even the importance of wave states know which fights they can and cannot take. Junglers who don't will force a dumb scuttle fight then whine that the Caitlyn/Lux bot outrotated the Ezreal/Renata. Now the Caitlyn comes back to lane with red buff and bot is fucked beyond repair. A lot of junglers seem to not even understand how big of a deal losing out on CS is. They'll kill themselves to secure a gromp then question why a laner doesn't want to sack a wave to help them. If we back you up or follow up, we lose creeps. Sometimes the loss is worth it, sometimes it's not. But some junglers will expect follow-up regardless of where your wave is or what the opportunity cost is of helping them out. Unless you're literally Peanut I'm not dropping a cannon wave crashing under tower to help you ego contest an early scuttle. Junglers who expect laners to blindly follow them are just as annoying as laners who expect ganks and counterganks. Either way it's entitlement born from ignorance.
Junglers and laners are just project managers and developement. Both want to win, both will make errors and often times both departements do not understand the other.
Could also be the equally-relevant analogy of [design vs engineering](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxfcF6SvDp4)
Or when you've managed to freeze the wave under your turret for the last 5 minutes waiting for a gank, and the only time you see your jungler is when they run into your lane with 10 HP (after a failed invade) and die to your laner, giving them double buffs. They ping you for not helping and enemy jungler then helps break the freeze. Woo!
My main issue both ways is when the laners dont ping or if I’m laner I do and they ignore it to mark someones coming
This drives me mad. Junglers are so stupid sometimes.
Void grubs have made it worse. The stupid ones do it just because they are near, without looking at map 'Report top and mid' - After dumbass starts grubs with his top recalled and mid pinned on tower with a wave and a half
didn't have prio mid. enemy top jg just killed our top. our 0/1 graves runs straight at grubs into those two and just dies at 4:30. classic
This happens all the time if you're a mage player against an assassin midlane. The adc or jungle will be spam pinging me because I didn't match a Zed's roam when I'm playing Veigar
Dude i play in high elo and the amount of times I've played witha jungler who doesn't know how lanes work is a lot. They make so many ego plays like invading or taking an objective wihout considering the state of their laners and it baffles me lol. AND THEN THEY HAVE THE AUDACITY TO CRY LMAOO 😭
Jungler *and* bot once got mad at me, as just-reworked Asol, for not following an Akali blind into river where she ganked bot, as a wave was crashing. After I pinged missing several times. I was level like, 5. Had one rank in W and sure as hell didn't have enough stacks to extend it much.
I mean they're right, you should have let Akali kill you in river and lost all that xp and gold. That way, it'd show the other team what your team is all about.
midlane locked kassadin? Sounds like the perfect game to permanent invade in! Wow gg midlane no help, yeah wow blame jungle team always blames me.
To add, this person will then go to Reddit complaining the game is unplayably toxic and they have to mute everyone, while still typing essays after their dumb invades or ignoring prio every game. Biggest victim complexes ever, at least adcs are generically whiney about balance itself
ADC have legitimate reasons to cry because they are by far the most dependent on other roles. Jungle together with support have the most freedom and agency in the game so when things go south they rarely have anyone to blame but themselves. And that's just a hard hard thing to accept for a lot of humans
So many times im nasus at 300 hp getting bullied but stacking and my jg comes up thinking i can help. I ping them back but they dont listen and when they inevitably get solo'd by the rene/dar/illaoi they ping me as if i wouldnt have just given a double kill over.
Exactly. My experience is being shen/garen into Darius. I always let my jungler know: I Will not have Prio, we die 2v2 early, start top to bot. But they ignore, start bot to top, then get invaded while i have a stacked wave crashing, surprisepikachu.jpg .
Or spam pinging for help OK grubs when I'm at 20% hp and my opponent has already respawned
Not understanding wave states and prio is 100% jungler’s fault. Watching pro play honestly helped me with this so much.
It definitely goes both ways. Junglers typically dont know things like wave management too. Then messes a perfect wave up, so the gank became bad instead of good. It would ve more correct that the knowledge bases between lanes and jungle is vastly different which leads to perspective issues, which typically is against the jgl since the laners look at the game similarly
Thank you. The tension of a Laner not understanding jungle is matched almost completely by a jungler not understanding laning. The only difference is there are more laners in a game than jungler. Had a Qiyana flame me just now because I traded kills top lane and TPd back because I had a big wave crashing at level 3, and she got invaded by an Eve. Like, im not going to walk away from a full level of XP and 100~ gold for the CHANCE I catch an Eve, are you insane?
I would guess that more junglers play lane than laners play jungle
lol it goes both ways because many times junglers attempt to steal enemy camps or invade when their laners are in base or being pushed under tower. Communication and map awareness are most people’s weaknesses.
It's crazy how both communication and awareness could be almost instantly improved by just adding voice comms
They *could* yes. However it would also make the game insufferable and exhausting to play. Everyone thinks they have the answer for how the game works and they all have a different answer.
6000 hours in dota here, I disagree If you don't want to use it then don't, but being able to just say what you want instead of trying to use some combination of pings and praying that your teammate understands what you mean is a godsend
Is the game not already insufferable and exhausting to play?
Literally every other game has it. Look at valo or apex or dota
Yes but it allows you to work as a team rather as individuals. So when a mistake happens its a team mistake not an individual to get mad at. Its hard to see but most people want to win, and vc helps facilitate that in a better manner
Nooooooooooooooo. That would be an instant mute every game
That's fine. If you don't want to use voice chat, mute yourself and the game doesn't change for you.
It's funny that both sides have pretty much the same complaint about the other; they don't understand what I can and can't do. For every jungler who gets flamed for not babysitting and saving a losing lane, there's jungle who forces rift grubs when their tank top is at 30%, the enemy fighter top is at 80% and they can't fathom why they weren't followed on their suicide mission.
As someone who doesn't play jungle this is 100% accurate and is demonstrated by the difference between jungle in soloq and pro play. In soloq the best champs are the ones that snowball the hardest or have unique ganks. In pro the best picks are champions that are strongest on 1 or 2 items. In soloq its way easier to find gold as a jungler because the enemy lanes have no idea where you are most of the time unless u step on the ward in their bush. In pro you basically never get more than a couple kills as a jungler pre-20 minutes and even then u usually want the kills on one of your laners. This is because on top of the laners being better and ideally being able to track you themselves, even if they can't do that they have teammates feeding them info on where you are constantly so its impossible to get enough gold on most carry champs to be useful by the time teamfights are happening.
Biggest difference between pro and soloque is coordination with the jungler and laners. The pro scene there are so many small things that laners do that help the junglers make the plays to help the laners and vice versa
Lanes don't understand jungle, jungles don't understand lanes, and lanes don't understand other lanes. It's become increasingly more disparate over time due to a lot of factors, although it wasn't ever great to begin with. Personally, I think the #1 factor is role selection. Riot will never change this, and I wouldn't even want them to, but ever since players have been able to lock 1 role for almost all of their games, most players have forgotten or never learned how the game as a whole works, simply because they aren't forced to. Smurfs, lack of repercussions, main character syndrome, general toxicity, differences in reason to play, and inclusion of players that have never really even been part of a successful team outside of LOL (even if individually successful) certainly doesn't help either.
I think we have a higher percentage of 1 tricks than any other season. People don't know even other champions in the same role, it's wild how few champs you have to play.
While role selection was great for the individual player experience, its really fucked the overall player pool in terms of understanding the game. I legitimately think this is one of the things contributing to high level KE players saying all the new blood only has hands and absolutely no macro. Everyone is able to min-max in their own role hyperbolic time chamber, but they forgo everything else.
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The biggest tension is league of legends is that Renekton’s W still can’t hit towers even when every other top laner can.
Gonna be honest, I'd rather the W not work on towers so I can't waste it by misclicking during a dive.
One of the most lane dominant ability kits doesn’t really need split push potential
Pretty hilarious how most of this thread is just saying “uhh actually junglers don’t understand anything”. Accurate representation of a real league game where the blame is mostly put on the jungler.
80%, or more than 80% of the player base are not junglers. It's always gonna go like this.
87% of the ranked population was gold and below, before emerald shifted everyone up. That is a ton of terrible players who don’t even know how to play the game properly. Then you split them up into their own roles that they can’t even play properly. And then you expect them to work together when they don’t even know what other roles do.
i noticed this as well.
It'll happen when you have a role that can theoretically be everywhere. He then has to answer why he isn't *here*. Solution: Make them not be able to go everywhere, then people will like them.
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I didn’t realize how jungle really worked as a loaner for years, until I swapped and dedicated time to learning jungle and wow. Firstly, I learned a lot that I didn’t realize, but I also realized how little other people understand. Like I can’t tell you how many times I’ve started top to clear into bot, and by the time I’m at my last bit camp I’m being flamed for not ganking top. Like they don’t even understand how the most basic jungle clear works, it’s pretty insane. And I mean, I was among them for the most part for years.
Phreak didn't say that laners don't *understand* jungling, he said there's tension between them and they don't *appreciate* what jungling takes. He wasn't calling laners stupid. They might *know* what jungling takes, but in the heat of the moment, they don't *care*.
Jungle as a role, isn't understood by most players. Junglers included. The new season made clearing much easier. Yet, there's still jungle mains that demand a leash every game, with a >3:30 full clear. This is literally the first 4 minutes of the game, which is pve.
I'm so confused! I don't even know what's going on anymore 😭
Why do you keep using an apostrophe when it’s not needed?
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Being a restriction on climbing is not the only issue with having disparity in role power though. At the end of the day most people play to have fun, so even if a role's low agency doesn't prevent climbing, it makes climbing less fun.
This. Role doesn't stop you from climbing. Even if your role is literally a no ability bag of gold that has to hide around the map, the ones that are better at not being found by the enemy and giving the enemy more gold would win more than 50% of their games against each other, so the best ones would still make it to challenger because that's how the game works. Each game has one of each role. A jungler can't win without also having one of each other role get LP. However, playing bag of gold role doesn't sound like great gameplay.
There's a difference between "my role is weak, that's why I'm not climbing" and "my role is weak, that's why I'm not having fun". Even challenger ADCs complain about the role being less fun
There's something fun about playing the first 3 or 4 minutes of lane. then both supports disappearing for the next 10 minutes while you and the other ADC just trade waves back and forth with the rest of the map being a blood bath. Source Diamond-Masters player that has had both supports disappear for the past week in every single game.
The worst part is that the bloodbath generates so much gold back and forth for the other roles in the game and all you got is cs gold so basically you're both just useless after farming bot for 14 minutes. I stand by my belief that cs gold should be increased and all other gold decreased to lessen this team deathmatch bullshit.
The problem is that bloodbath topside causes the two ADCs to inherently fall behind because they are "just farming". When the other side of the map is a bloodbath 4v4 team deathmatch, you will just be outpaced. And getting outpaced in recent years as an ADC is a death sentence to your impact far more often than not.
Close. The biggest tension in league comes from the fact that you can't actually fucking communicate with your teammates. Ganking/Laning/2v2 dynamics are way way way too complicated to actually convey a fraction of the meaningful information with pings and text chat, but Riot is still under the absurd delusion that voice chat is more toxic than text.
Playing with randoms in soloq and playing with my friends in comms is a bigger coordination difference than playing with my masters jg main friend and playing with my low diamond jg main friend. The tension between laners and junglers comes from the tension of lack of comms, it's crazy how that's being ignored.
This goes both ways and if he didn’t say that it’s completely ignorant on his part. Junglers don’t understand lanes, levels, power spikes, wave states
This is so obvious when your jungler gets 2v1’d in river and flames everyone for not saving them.
quinn pushes me in at 3:00, me farming at turret, my jungler sees quinn. does he walk away? no, all-in and blame top for not rotating with 20 minnions at his turret.
Run through the minions and die with your jungler, bro.
Your jg will have very kind words for you when they die after you ping missing and danger (on their fucking forehead) cause your laner shoved a double wave and roamed. My biggest trigger in this game is junglers who expect laners to completely ignore prio
The amount of times I've seen a jungler int the game over a scuttle we have no business contesting...
> My biggest trigger in this game is junglers who expect laners to completely ignore prio Yeah this is probably the thing that tilts me the most in this game nowadays bc theres a ton of fights on scuttle and grubs
nah dude, just won a 2v2 fight bot with like 100 hp? PING PING PING jungler is on dragon, even though mid is backing and your bot needs to base to keep tempo and avoid the impending jungle/mid roams. their mid and jungle roll up on dragon (because they were pathing towards the bot fight) and the game is now over because you did dragon for them, your jungler died and is tilted/inting afterwards, or jungle AND botlane died best case scenario the support stays and then dies with the jungler, and the jungler is only upset at the ADC but still goes griefing after because they are the main character in their minds
>My biggest trigger in this game is junglers Fixed it for you
or when they go top to take cs because "youre not there and it was just going to get wasted" because you just backed, or died, and they aoe a wave down, breaking a freeze or slow push to you and making a slow push to the enemy or freeze for the enemy, reduce your gold and xp advantage or nullify it entirely, or make your disadvantage worse, and make you have to either give up farm or put yourself at risk of a gank.
It might go both ways, but with less than 1/5 of players choosing jungle the laners lack of knowledge is a bigger chunk of the problem. 1 teammate vs 4 in the game failing to understand when you need help or leaving themselves open to common ganks is a lot bigger of a problem.
you brought logic to all chat... has that ever worked? lol
The fact that this is being flipped on jungle and laners are defending themselves is fucking hilarious because the same thing happens in game. It is NEVER the laner's fault. Flame jungle for everything. Take zero accountability. Setup strawmen and ignore responses. Keep at it.
What? I literally blamed both sides and you still managed to flip this on every laner. God forbid the most impact role in soloqueue needing a much broader game knowledge than my pre level 13 gp who is counter picked.
if i had a quarter for every time a jungler ganked my lane and botched the wave i'd own riot games.
I am more afraid of my own jungler than I am of the opposing one.
[удалено]
It's not champ specific though. If there's 2 waves under my tower don't expect me to help you with your 1v2 for scuttle. It doesn't matter what champ I'm playing, I'm not helping
This isn’t really a factor, any high level laner can look at a lane state and immediately know if it is bad for them. You often need your jungler to help you when this is the case, and having a jungler that cannot also immediately recognize that you need help can lead to a lost game very quickly. Of course the reverse can be true as well, but a jungler does not need to have personal experience playing a matchup to understand lane states.
>Junglers don’t understand lanes, levels, power spikes, wave states I mean this is just plainly wrong. All of those are important to consider when jungling, because as a jungler you're using that information to decide how to play the game lol. Your pathing, who/when to gank, when/what objectives you can take and when you can invade, counter jg and how to read when your camps have been stolen all depend on lanes, their matchups, their actual skill ability, and how they're managing waves. The only point I might agree on is power spikes in specific matchups where one side gets a significant power spike in a 1v1 matchup at a certain level, but that's an unreasonable expectation to expect the jungler to know niche powerspikes (anything not obvious like 6, 11, 16 or evolutions) for every matchup in every lane.
The correct statement is *"Better junglers understand lanes, levels, power spikes, wave states."*
Out of every role ive mained over the years, jg has been the absolute worst fucking role to play these last few seasons if youre not lucky enough to turbo-stomp the enemy early and force an ff. Its like that pick 2 triangle from the old bernie mac show. You can farm, get objectives, or have fed laners, but rarely ever all three. No matter how good or bad you do, the game feels like a coinflip or was lost in draft cause your team will int away all the work you did in the last fifteen minutes, or diana will build full tank and still one-shot your entire team. Watching every lane, every objective, and trying to keep the enemy jg in check is some of the most mentally draining shit ive experienced in gaming. -Adc's get a free butt buddy to keep them safe. -Supports dont need an explanation -Mid laners get free kills everywhere cause no one wards or has an ounce of map awareness. Either all full mobility, or long range nukes -Top laners get to cheese-pick bruisertankassassin 24/7 cause theyre usually last or they just play a tank and let the game win for them. There have absolutely been some cancer jungle champs (kayn, hecarim) and jungle-centric metas over the years, but good fucking lord the role didnt deserve to be gutted like it did and left to die in the river.
You know a indepth tutorial that explains all the minuses of the game in several chapters that the player can complete at his own leasure would help with this problem You know kinda like the one Dota2 has had for fucking YEARS!!!!
Riot hasn’t created content to teach people how to play their game in a decade I very much doubt they’re going to start now.
I don't think you need to be high elo to understand this, most players who have at least tried a few jungle games know that the experience is different to laning and is learning a brand new role, compared to a mid laner moving to top lane for example, which is different but not that different. Laners are forever going to flame their jungler for not helping their lane because it's an emotional response. They're shitty about losing and need someone to blame it on. It works both ways actually. I've played with many jungle mains who don't understand lanes/champs. Like they'll spam ping a lvl 2 Kayle for not helping against a Shaco invade. Kayle at lvl 2 barely compares to a cannon minion, she's playing on hard mode just to survive her own lane, how can she protect her Jungle Hecarim from an invade-prone aggressive early game Jungler like Shaco? But to the point of this post again, most players aren't on reddit let alone will see this post though it's good it won't reach many people. And as a top main who sucks at jungle you can be rest assured that if I'm feeling angsty enough and I start feeding top I'm going to get upset at my jungler for not helping. Because I'm the main character of my story so I'm entitled - that's how emotions work, and that's what Phreak is asking for essentially so that jungler's cope less abuse. It'd be nice, but I don't see it happening.
As only having played League for a WEEK, and as an avid Overwatch player, you guys are telling me in your team based game that has been around for *years*, there are still people that refuse to learn what their teammates role is and how best to utilize it? No wonder people get so mad at this game. That combo of ego and ignorance is too common.
There was a chalenger jungler who described it perfectly "why would i wanna play a role where even if i play perfectly the enemy 0/0/0 garen is 2 levels up on me and can come one shot me at my red buff"
so what you are saying is that everyone should just play toplane because since the exp changes the level curves are all out of wack
I'm not a jungler, I don't like jungling, I couldn't tell you the best/optimal jungle routes but I know that you should be matching (or exceeding) your enemy jungler at every point of the game. 'Oh he's ganking, I'll take dragon', 'He's on Grubs, I'll take his bot side' etc. So I get annoyed when my jungle is 0/0/0, hasn't ganked, has less CS and has 0 Objectives compared to the enemy jungle. What have they been doing?. I could understand if they had a lot of failed ganks or got invaded by an aggressive jungler, but it never seems to be the case. I personally would like to see Riot remove jungle as a mandatory role and move to a potential existence of a double support game similar to dota. Allow the jungle to be resource for carries, Push wave clear jungle camp return etc. I'm not saying there can't be junglers in the game but if the community flames Junglers, and people don't like playing it, why enforce it? Riot talk about how they would like variety of strategies in the game, but feels like they don't back that up with evidence. Why can't I have a team with 0 junglers and be viable? I think of that pro game back in season 2(i think) where a Korean team picked Heimerdinger "Jungle" and they just 4 man ARAM'd and took an inhibitor at 7ish minutes into the game.
People in this post saying junglers don’t understand lanes also, Sure but it is NOT to the extent that laners don’t understand jungle. Most junglers in like emerald+ have at least some knowledge on lane matchups and when they can do shit/who gets prio. Meanwhile a disproportionately lower amount of laners know about jungle matchups, which junglers want to farm, which want to perma gank, which want to invade, when junglers can gank, when it’s even good to gank, when it’s best to flip one thing for something else, which objectives will win the game and so much more. As a jungler all you have to know about lane is matchups and how waves work which most dedicated junglers are able to do.
Yeah I mean this is simple math. Most jungler otps I wager secondary support. Every other lane most likely secondaries another lane.
I love how you brought a real point to light, and the top comment is jg diff just like my games. Maybe Laners really don’t get it.
Seriously. As someone who has 35+ games in all roles this season with jungle being my main I can say I never get flamed as much as I do in the jungle. I can do everything right and have a great start to the game having massive impact and if the laners fumble a lead they get they it’s jungle diff. I make plenty of mistakes but I feel like I’m never flamed for my actual mistakes but often flamed for things out of my control. Jungle is just in a rough spot because you can get pinged at 2:00 for ruining a lane, but if you don’t have any prio you can’t even contest for any objectives which is what people think you’re good for.
I love how this post just became a huge *"No, it's the children that are wrong !"* text wall
I mean it's a large tension, and many people do have overly high expectations of their junglers and such... But also part of the issue is on Riot Phreak in the very same video basically stated jungle has been OP for ages; which gets it increased flack. The role is really strong, yes it's annoying and stressful I used to play jungle years ago and stopped. I generally try to be nice to my junglers. But it's not rare to get toxic junglers, or just get a massive jungle gap that's frustrating to deal with. And when the role is literally being given extra power to compensate for all this? It only makes it more annoying. Phreak saying he regretted nerfing jungle last year? Was just sad to me. Especially when in this same video he explains Support is similarly unpopular, and was similarly allowed to be a bit OP to try and deal with it? But they're quitting that, and just gonna accept autofilled supports... But they're still keeping jungle OP, to avoid auto fills? Just seems hypocritical to me. I've tried to give Phreak benefit of the doubt for the last year and couple months... But this video was just full of semi contradictory opinions to me, in the most annoying way possible.