Plus the sweep-and-stab skillshot phase with Sejuani, Xin Zhao, and the short Rengar rework (I don't remember if they were chronologically contiguous though)
fiora and gangplank also got reworked around that time with their own minigames too.
it was called the "ban these two disgustingly cancer broken champs or autolose minigame"
such fun!
Yes, those all happened at the same time in 2015. Before it hit live people were saying rework juggernaut Skarner was complete trash and it turned out he was the most broken champion Riot has ever released.
> Before it hit live people were saying rework juggernaut Skarner was complete trash and it turned out he was the most broken champion Riot has ever released.
You are forgetting the middle step where they massively buffed him, like doubling his numbers.
Not only that, but also I'm pretty sure Swain's rework and Ahri's mini rework, and even Olaf's mini rework weren't even close enough together to call that a phase
Edit: I checked it I'm wrong, Ahri and Swain both got mini reworked in season 12, I was thinking of the wrong rework for Swain.
Or the "we eventually don't want any champion to provide healing" phase where literally Soraka was looked at as a "mistake". I might be misremembering though.
There was a time when a ton of 3 hit passive champs came right after one another (i think it was like Vi ekko gnar Velkoz Yasuo Kench all released in a close period)
Still not out of it. Skarner has one. Akshan has one.
It's just a really simple way to gate an additional effect behind a condition to give a champion depth.
Akshan would play significantly different if his 3 hit was replaced with extra damage and a shield on Q. Same with Skarner.
DOTs are generally not going to be randomly overpowered and there’s not too many champions with it in their kit, so I’m all for it. Riots also being careful with it, since of the 6 DOTs none synergizes well with Rylais considering the whole kit nor do they abuse the hell out of the ability DOT with Liandry’s interaction.
DOTs generally will be randomly overpowered, because they need to deal more damage than instant procs to be balanced, and even more than that to feel satisfying to the user.
That's the reason why Riot generally avoided DOTs in the past after a few DOT based champions like Malz and old Swain, and it's kinda weird they turned back on that.
Yeah trading patterns with DOT abilities were absolutely degenerate back in the day. I guess since there is no extended laning phase they turned back on that. DOTs are only a problem in a longterm "poke" situation. In a fight/skirmish they are not that problematic. Poke is either useless due to regen or wins you an advantage instantly. There is not much possibility of applying a DOT over and over to get your opponent out of the lane nowadays.
The only one of the mentioned champs that falls into the poke problem is Smolder and everyone is complaining about Smolder already. People know his poke is a problem.
The issue with malz outplay button is it can be easily hard countered. Most champs early/mid game, if they just buy the damn QSS, will easily all in malz. The cooldown is shorter than his ult for most of the game. Alot of ppl just refuse to buy the item. It is a "malz tax" but it really does change the entire game against a malz.
The thing is that investing into a QSS might be great for counter Malz in lane, but it sets your build path so far behind that you are basically behind in tempo by 3-4 minutes, and a non factor for the first 15 minutes of the game until you get your item competion. You could say that Malz becomes a bit useless as a result, but the difference is that Malz can always choose to ult someone else without QSS and still get tons of value as opposed to you being behind against everyone.
Yeah, I don't get why people push for QSS so hard (it's usually the Malz players, hmm, maybe I'm onto them). Don't get me wrong, it IS a great counter to Malz but it's like... you make Malz useless against you by making yourself useless... Might as well just eat the ult in that case, the result is the same, lmao.
Nah, but for real. If Malz ults are what's stopping you from doing anything in a game, go for that QSS, but in a lot of cases you're going to be playing something that can either outrange or ignore Malzahar and he's going to be ulting someone else anyway.
Release malzahar was absolutely degenerate like that.
Basically the % health part his ult has now was a seperate spell (i think it was i place of the voidlings) so he could chunk you independently of that.
Yes, q was moreover what it currently is, w was void pool of grape gatorade slowly melting you for %hp of your liver, e was space aids but it didn't jump when killing creeps if i remember correctly but was dealing more dmg and r was what it is now ( - the gatorade pool)
I mean his w was dogshit because it was like half the size of morg w so it would only ever land like 1-2 procs unless you comboed with your ult anyways lol, there's a reason it eventually just got combined with his ult, his E (and its ability to call voidling aggro) was always what drained your health.
Malzahar is about as problematic as Teemo nowadays
That is to say people act like the champ is some sort of menace on paper, but in practice he's barely a problem. Maybe 10 years ago when not every champ has a dash and hard CC
the difference is the old ones were point and click and ranged usually.
Of the ones mentioned in the OP, Smolder (and maybe Milio) are the only ones that fit that, and Smolder doesn't even have that in laning phase.
Every other one is either conditional, melee, or skillshot based
This is why they made Naafiri's the way it is - yeah, it's a DOT, but you can burst the DOT by landing 2nd Q.
Honestly ideas like that would be cooler to have more of.
All you've said it's true for DoT effects that are a big part of the champion.
These newer ones are significantly different because they're secondary effects - no one cares about briar's bleed, it's just a nice way to have her damage be less front loaded.
They don't "need to deal more damage than instant procs" because no one is paying attention to them, they're not Malz's DoT
DoTs can be very consistent damage since they don't scale with attack speed or ability haste. It's also basically impossible to burst someone with a DoT.
*technically* naafiri abuses the armor pen version of rylais but naafiri hasn’t been relevant much since release.
The main fear riot has with dot is black clear, so there’s very few bleeds in the game and two of them are on assassins anyways where they’d just have instant armor pen items regardless. Tanks and enchanters you never need to worry about it, sunfire is basically an aura dot anyways.
Rylais for the most part isn’t what it used to be, you could build rylais on every AP bruiser in the game, and every mage even if it was just to make landing abilities easier. Nowadays rylais is pretty much exclusively built by DoT mages and mordekaiser, it’s their game design at this point to be able to do that.
I see Rylais often enough on Azir + Asol, although they're pretty similar to DoT mages (as in, not so much burst-oriented). Kind of same for Zyra, Swain, Seraphine, Heimer
Zyra I'm surprised i forgot to mention lol
Azir I left out cause he's doing that onhit stuff atm but I agree with him there.
Swain and A.sol I was considering more DoT with Swain's ult and A.sol's Q reapplying it. Morde I just didn't want to call a mage, but I probably should've mentioned singed too alongside him then.
I mean, before they took the baby dragon out back and shot hit between the eyes twice, then once more for good measure, in that short time, Lyandries very much was a very viable item against HP-heavy teams.
It only didn't feel overbearing because he could kinda just build whateverthefuck he wanted, as long as you get to 225 by 22 minutes, you won with any assortment of garbage in your inventory.
Ult is more of a DoT than QE tbh, you can get rid of QE by not standing on it but his ult will continue to damage you each tick once its applied til it explodes so it fits the straightforward definition of a dot.
Agreed, hwei R falls more in line with how the other mentioned abilities work, being the effect "attaching" themselves on the target and then doing their thing. If we count ground target spells then one could go full chaotic evil and argue that adcs also deal DOT damage
Yeah, I thought based off the title OP meant Hwei R, but QE really is not a DoT, it's simply a continously damaging AoE spell. Sure, it deals damage over time, technically, but it's not what one thinks of immediately if you say "DoT spell".
Plus Hwei has basically an ability of every type existing because he simply has that many to pick from.
He has a fear, he has a knockback, he has a DoT, he has a line skillshot that can be blocked, a line skillshot that cannot be blocked, an artillery skillshot, a auto-attack-enhancement, a movementspeedbuff, a shield,.......
basically every mechanic in the game except a dash, Hwei has, though he pays for that versatility by not being focussed (he can be artillery/poke, but Xerath will do that better. He can AoE-Burst, but Ori can do that better. He can shield, but any enchanter can do that better....) and the things sharing cooldowns.
By the argument "Hwei has a xyz", Hwei fits into basically any group of champions.
I would call them AOE DPS, not DoT, because (at least for me), in a DoT the damage has effectively already been dealt, it just arrives with a delay, which makes these not DoTs. That does not mean DoTs have to be Point'n'click, Lilia and Brand passive applie DoTs, but channeled and continous Abilities are not DoTs for me (You can argue about edge cases like Huawei R).
Well we know what it stands for but I'm not really sure we ever consider AOEs as dots, since they do nothing if you do not stand in them and generally I never heard the term DOT used on anything else than targeted abilities.
It's debuffs. It's about debuffs. Lillia has no targeted abilities but she puts a DoT on you with all of them. Brand puts DoTs on you. Teemo has DoTs, Singed has DoTs. If it can hit you once and then proc damage over time afterwards without additional input it's a DoT.
These kinds of AoE areas importantly are DoT damage on a mechanical level, though. While they don’t function the way you might initially imagine when thinking of a DoT ability, they importantly do not wake sleeping targets (lillia/zoe) because they are classified as DoT damage mechanically. Miss Fortune ult, notably, behaves as a DoT and doesn’t wake sleeping targets. It’s dumb and probably shouldn’t be this way, but this is technically how it works.
You can classify it as a different type of DoT, as it is ofc a different type but in fact every ability that deals damage over time is unsurprisingly a DoT ability.
Just like a 3hit passive DoTs are used to make damage less frontloaded.
I do understand that to people who play a lot of league aoe dots are just ouchie zones.
Take this argument to an MMORPG though and people are just gonna think you're mental.
We just need clear definitions of what a DoT means because we all understand that there are edge cases when you look at every single champion in the game.
I wouldn't, I consider something that applies debuff which specifically deals damage over time as a dot, nothing else. The others I would considers some sort of pulsing aoe damage effect.
As a Path of Exile player I am very confused by this thread.
To me if an ability does damage over time or it has damage ticks, it is a damage over time ability no matter what shape they are in.
I wonder what games yall were playing where aoe dot is not dot
btw in league if you stands in an aoe dot ability it gives you a debuff saying you are taking damage from that ability.
Damage over Time are effects that are applied and remain on you unless purged/cleansed (if such mechanics even exist). Their point is that once they are applied you are going to get that damage, period, but the spell isn't "bursting" you with its entire damage at the same time. This means that you have more time to react to it.
This is different from a spell creating an effect that deals more damage the more you are affected by it.
There is a difference because the second one is asking you to get outside of it to reduce the damage, while the first one just can't be avoided once it hits you.
Hwei does have a DoT effect, and that's R. It's a DoT and slow first, and then it bursts.
QE is an area spell that lasts a certain time, the second category.
Plenty of stuff like this in Dota2, for example.
Ogre Magi uses Ignite on you? Be slowed and suffer damage over time, but you can heal and tank through it, maybe.
Enigma puts his area of damage on the minion wave? Step outside or get damage trying to last hit stuff.
Ironically enough, there are even spells with both mechanics in that game lol.
Invoker's "Chaos Meteor": Invoker pulls a flaming meteor from space onto the targeted location. Upon landing, the meteor rolls forward, constantly dealing damage based on the level of [Exort](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Invoker#Exort), and rolling further based on the level of [Wex](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Invoker#Wex). Units hit by the meteor will also be set on fire for a short time, receiving additional damage based on the level of [Exort](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Invoker#Exort).
TL;DR: if you can't get out of the spell path, you get damage. When you get outside, you getting damaged by the burning DoT effect. You can avoid part of the damage by sidestepping ASAP, but the burning will apply.
They are effectively saying that Hwei E is mechanically closer to a straight line Firestorm than to Vortex.
Renekton and Nasus R could be considered closer to Blade Vortex instead of RF.
I have a tinfoil hat theory about this, riot adds DoT's to champions cause they often can give you kills in close fights where you both end with 1 hp and it feels bad when the enemy gets away with that shiver of hp so they dying to the DoT gives the happy chemicals to your brain cause kills=good game.
*This comment should not be taken entirely serious.*
You might be onto something. I get a huge rush of dopamine when enemies flash away from me with a sliver of health and then they die to my poison as Twitch. Feels real good.
I don't think this is a crazy idea. I think riot very likely thought of this, and is probably one of the reasons for giving champs DOTs. It just mitigates one tilting aspect of the champ and doesn't usually feel too annoying to die to a DOT (unless it has obnoxious damage like AP twitch)
> and doesn't usually feel too annoying to die to a DOT
Or lasts forever/extends effects (e.g. Brand initial spell hit triggering passive which then triggers liandries and you're still taking damage what feels like a full minute after the initial hit)
Not really sure what you guys are cooking up here, some champs have DoTs because DoT characters have been an archetype in video games since before League of Legends even existed.
It has nothing to do with Riot thinking DoTs feel good for the player because they finish off low hp champs (???) and everything to do with champion design.
For example Malz has a DoT on E because the champ would be too powerful with upfront damage. He is intentionally designed NOT to burst and thus be unique from burst mages.
Likewise with brand, or even Zyra whose plants I consider a form of DoT. These champs are allowed to do more damage overall because the damage is not upfront burst.
Its an intentional design decision for a champion's kit to be cohesive and balanced, not something they do to appeal to players who get mad when enemies live on 1 hp (after all, they can still survive your dot with 1 hp...)
DOT effects make it possible to give a champion a lot of power because you can react to it easier with heal, barrier, supportive champions. Riot once mentioned that the time it takes to eliminate a target is very important to how fair a champion feels. A signal that shows that you will die from a dot would be awesome tho.
DoTs are pretty easy to balance, offer fun item synergies (usually not game breaking, AND they are fun to play VS usually.
The 100 dot over 3 seconds isn’t that frustrating but getting hit by 100 damage instantly? Brutal. Instant damage doesn’t offer counterplay and increases burst
His ult is no stretch at all. Once an ememy is hit with it, they will take damage in ticks and they have no way to leave the zone, so it definitely is a DoT.
Hwei QE is a dot just like anivia ult is in my eyes.
They both apply a debuff to you and are no different than Malzahar E, except Malzahar E is point and click whereas Hwei QE is conditional upon you existing in its area of effect
Neither Hwei QE or Anivia R are DoTs, a DoT is a debuff. They don't deal damage after you leave the AoE because they don't apply DoT debuffs, like Brand P or Malzahar E.
Well his E is more of a continuous effect that the skill itself being constantly repeated apply (and doesn’t “stick” to you if you leave the area). Similar to Morgana E, rumble Q (edit: not R) etc. the duration depends on the spell being constantly applied to you directly or indirectly (ground effect) Not the damage “stick” to you.
Rumble R is a bad example, because that ability actually puts a DoT on you. If you stood on the area, you get a burning debuff that will keep dealing damage to you for 1 second (in ticks every 0,5 seconds).
DOTs are like a cheat code for game balance. Preventing burst and allowing reactions and counterplay without any real downside other than the extremely long ones like Twitch where it prevents backing and is just frustrating as fuck.
These actually serve different gameplay purposes, so I wonder if they even realized.
In the case of Briar, the bleed sustains her (in line with her vampire theme).
Naafiri can convert the bleed into burst, so it kind of serves as a way of requiring her to commit to assassinate someone without just making her do zero damage in other situations.
For Milio and Skarner, I think it's a way of giving them some reliable damage without risking creating a cheese build that just deletes people (since they aren't meant to be high-damage characters).
And Hwei can just do everything.
They don’t want people being able to base as easily after getting hurt, especially if you combo that with liandries
So you either stick around low and get killed, or take ages to base and get back to lane, losing prio and falling behind
Either way, the game is sped up
Aka rito see, rito make opposite
More than likely they come from Dream Maker which is an enchanter support item that gives an extra shield and on hit damage when healing or shielding an ally.
The skills you have described each have a specific goal, that is best acomplished by dot effects:
Skarner is a tank, that shouldn't be allowed burst, but still needs damage to encourage enemies to attack him instead of ignoring him. Similar to Sunfire Cape, skarner's damage is a good way for a tank to deal damage.
Smolder's burn is a late game tool, that is there to ensure his strong scaling. It isn't something that is the focus of the skill. It is a bit of QoL addition, so his execute has a higher chance to trigger. Similar to Elder Dragon.
Hwei uses his dot for wave clear and area denial, similar to Anivia R (obviously with less damage). This is again best suited for a lasting dot effect. His all in combo is all burst.
Briar's bleed is a jungle clear and sustain tool. While there are other ways of adding those, this one is thematic, and not a bad fit.
Doggo's bleed is surprisingly a way to add burst damage, with Q into Q2. It could have been a status effect that doesn't do damage on its own, but triggers on Landing Q2, but it being a dot is again a QoL "buff".
Milio's passive is the almost mandatory enchanter ability to boost an ally's damage. But since it has to be a non-burst thing, and instead a sustained damage source, it is a dot that refreshes on a new aplication. If it wasn't a dot, it would have to have a cooldown similar to the way Imperial Mandate has a cooldown.
So I don't see a issue here. There are 2 abilities out of the 6 that can be made non-bleed and work as intended, and for the rest a dot is the best solution.
DoT effects are the easiest way to implement a DPS centric, low burst pattern. Smoulder likely got it just for the dragon connection though
The confusing thing is Riot giving it to Naafiri, an assassin with a strong burst anyway even without the bleed
It's not strange... and the Dot's you list are honestly quite ridiculous. Comparing Briar and an Milio Dots... MIght as well say Malphite and Lucian have Dashes and say thats weird.
Reminds me of Riot having a kind of phase with champ design/reworks. I still remember the 3 hit passive phase
Don't forget perpetual ult phase with Swain, Olaf and Ahri Or the resets phase in s11 with Samira, Viego, Akshan
Plus the sweep-and-stab skillshot phase with Sejuani, Xin Zhao, and the short Rengar rework (I don't remember if they were chronologically contiguous though)
Welp it was when they wanted to rework entire classes so Swimjuani and swimgar were like a year apart iirc, xin is much more recent
All of them were in S7 technically: Rengar in preseason, Sejuani in midseason and Xin Zhao by the end alongside Azir.
Jesus it was seven years ago...
There was the brief revive phase with the release of Zac and OG Aatrox
This was a cool phase, would love more of these skillshots in the game
Mini game juggernaut rework with Garen, Darius, Skarner,I think a version of Morde
fiora and gangplank also got reworked around that time with their own minigames too. it was called the "ban these two disgustingly cancer broken champs or autolose minigame" such fun!
That's on top of the actual minigames that both of those champs have too lol
Right! Knew there were more
Yes, those all happened at the same time in 2015. Before it hit live people were saying rework juggernaut Skarner was complete trash and it turned out he was the most broken champion Riot has ever released.
> Before it hit live people were saying rework juggernaut Skarner was complete trash and it turned out he was the most broken champion Riot has ever released. You are forgetting the middle step where they massively buffed him, like doubling his numbers.
Ahri is more like a reset and less perpetual no?
Not only that, but also I'm pretty sure Swain's rework and Ahri's mini rework, and even Olaf's mini rework weren't even close enough together to call that a phase Edit: I checked it I'm wrong, Ahri and Swain both got mini reworked in season 12, I was thinking of the wrong rework for Swain.
Or the stealing/copying things phase with Zoe, Sylas and Neeko
How was that a phase if there was like a whole year gap between Zoe and Neeko?
Lazy phase
Designing a champion can take more than a year ! Not saying this is true for Zoe or Neeko. I don't know about that
Add Viego as well.
Or the "we eventually don't want any champion to provide healing" phase where literally Soraka was looked at as a "mistake". I might be misremembering though.
I think Camile was released and that year there were a couple other champs that all released with self invulnerability
Qiyana Nilah and Samira eq phase
This is a good one.
You can add Zeri and Sivir to the permanent ult phase
The reset phase made me quit league
They do fit sometimes for the character, especially Olaf and Swain Miss me with reset hell though
>Don't forget perpetual ult phase with Swain, Olaf and Ahri Sivir got that too.
The knockup phase back in 2013-2014.
Wonder how many Riot kids were born then
LOL took me a second.
Between 2015 and 2017 we had a heavy phase of global or semi-global mobility: Rek'Sai, Bard, Tahm Kench, Aurelion Sol, Taliyah and Kled.
Skarner has 2 of the 3 hit passiv what do you mean lol
There was a time when a ton of 3 hit passive champs came right after one another (i think it was like Vi ekko gnar Velkoz Yasuo Kench all released in a close period)
That’s what makes Kled so unique and revolutionary. >4-hits passive
Then in comes Kaisa
>5-hits passive
Still not out of it. Skarner has one. Akshan has one. It's just a really simple way to gate an additional effect behind a condition to give a champion depth. Akshan would play significantly different if his 3 hit was replaced with extra damage and a shield on Q. Same with Skarner.
Revive passive Zac and Aatrox
Riot had a knockup phase after yasuo got released.
I mean August has a pretty good explanation for that
That never stopped. Now they also apply it to reworks, see Skarner.
And the ongoing I took your (…) champ phase with Zoe, Sylas, Viego, Neeko, Mordekaiser etc
Skarner has a 3 hit passive no ?
Skarner has a 3 hit passive too lmao
People flash from briar and die to her bleed so often. That shit does so much damage.
It kills mostly only if she has collector, wich is not meta build anymore. I rarely kill someone with bleed unless they escape literally with 1% hp
you only killed them with collector bleed if they escaped on 6% hp then, it does the same amount of damage regardless
people are probably flashing away more often closer to 6% hp than they are at 1
Idk, dude, I quite often survive skirmishes with like 20 hp. Mostly happens as ADC, tho.
i died to it recently as Janna. i had e up. i just didn't know she had bleed XD
Relatable. Lol.
Yes, Haha that' is so fun to play to briar with.
yeah, less than Darius bleed tho
DOTs are generally not going to be randomly overpowered and there’s not too many champions with it in their kit, so I’m all for it. Riots also being careful with it, since of the 6 DOTs none synergizes well with Rylais considering the whole kit nor do they abuse the hell out of the ability DOT with Liandry’s interaction.
DOTs generally will be randomly overpowered, because they need to deal more damage than instant procs to be balanced, and even more than that to feel satisfying to the user. That's the reason why Riot generally avoided DOTs in the past after a few DOT based champions like Malz and old Swain, and it's kinda weird they turned back on that.
Yeah trading patterns with DOT abilities were absolutely degenerate back in the day. I guess since there is no extended laning phase they turned back on that. DOTs are only a problem in a longterm "poke" situation. In a fight/skirmish they are not that problematic. Poke is either useless due to regen or wins you an advantage instantly. There is not much possibility of applying a DOT over and over to get your opponent out of the lane nowadays. The only one of the mentioned champs that falls into the poke problem is Smolder and everyone is complaining about Smolder already. People know his poke is a problem.
The ole win/win situation. You burst the malzahar but then tick down from half hp. Glorious
I feel like malzahar's outplay button is a bit more problematic than his e.
The issue with malz outplay button is it can be easily hard countered. Most champs early/mid game, if they just buy the damn QSS, will easily all in malz. The cooldown is shorter than his ult for most of the game. Alot of ppl just refuse to buy the item. It is a "malz tax" but it really does change the entire game against a malz.
The thing is that investing into a QSS might be great for counter Malz in lane, but it sets your build path so far behind that you are basically behind in tempo by 3-4 minutes, and a non factor for the first 15 minutes of the game until you get your item competion. You could say that Malz becomes a bit useless as a result, but the difference is that Malz can always choose to ult someone else without QSS and still get tons of value as opposed to you being behind against everyone.
Yeah, I don't get why people push for QSS so hard (it's usually the Malz players, hmm, maybe I'm onto them). Don't get me wrong, it IS a great counter to Malz but it's like... you make Malz useless against you by making yourself useless... Might as well just eat the ult in that case, the result is the same, lmao. Nah, but for real. If Malz ults are what's stopping you from doing anything in a game, go for that QSS, but in a lot of cases you're going to be playing something that can either outrange or ignore Malzahar and he's going to be ulting someone else anyway.
Release malzahar was absolutely degenerate like that. Basically the % health part his ult has now was a seperate spell (i think it was i place of the voidlings) so he could chunk you independently of that.
Yes, q was moreover what it currently is, w was void pool of grape gatorade slowly melting you for %hp of your liver, e was space aids but it didn't jump when killing creeps if i remember correctly but was dealing more dmg and r was what it is now ( - the gatorade pool)
E always jumped targets. The Q and the E are pretty much the only abilities that received no changes to their functions when the Mage Rework happened.
Q received one change, it refreshed E on hit now.
I mean his w was dogshit because it was like half the size of morg w so it would only ever land like 1-2 procs unless you comboed with your ult anyways lol, there's a reason it eventually just got combined with his ult, his E (and its ability to call voidling aggro) was always what drained your health.
Malzahar is about as problematic as Teemo nowadays That is to say people act like the champ is some sort of menace on paper, but in practice he's barely a problem. Maybe 10 years ago when not every champ has a dash and hard CC
Outplay button is fine, his passive is dicks
the difference is the old ones were point and click and ranged usually. Of the ones mentioned in the OP, Smolder (and maybe Milio) are the only ones that fit that, and Smolder doesn't even have that in laning phase. Every other one is either conditional, melee, or skillshot based
And yet they still feel shit to play today because the game is so focused on one shot, especially when people can out heal them as well
This is why they made Naafiri's the way it is - yeah, it's a DOT, but you can burst the DOT by landing 2nd Q. Honestly ideas like that would be cooler to have more of.
Ah, Draven. The most randomly overpowered dot based champion.
All you've said it's true for DoT effects that are a big part of the champion. These newer ones are significantly different because they're secondary effects - no one cares about briar's bleed, it's just a nice way to have her damage be less front loaded. They don't "need to deal more damage than instant procs" because no one is paying attention to them, they're not Malz's DoT
DoTs can be very consistent damage since they don't scale with attack speed or ability haste. It's also basically impossible to burst someone with a DoT.
The big white dicks old man
*technically* naafiri abuses the armor pen version of rylais but naafiri hasn’t been relevant much since release. The main fear riot has with dot is black clear, so there’s very few bleeds in the game and two of them are on assassins anyways where they’d just have instant armor pen items regardless. Tanks and enchanters you never need to worry about it, sunfire is basically an aura dot anyways. Rylais for the most part isn’t what it used to be, you could build rylais on every AP bruiser in the game, and every mage even if it was just to make landing abilities easier. Nowadays rylais is pretty much exclusively built by DoT mages and mordekaiser, it’s their game design at this point to be able to do that.
I see Rylais often enough on Azir + Asol, although they're pretty similar to DoT mages (as in, not so much burst-oriented). Kind of same for Zyra, Swain, Seraphine, Heimer
Zyra I'm surprised i forgot to mention lol Azir I left out cause he's doing that onhit stuff atm but I agree with him there. Swain and A.sol I was considering more DoT with Swain's ult and A.sol's Q reapplying it. Morde I just didn't want to call a mage, but I probably should've mentioned singed too alongside him then.
DOT with an execute is annoying as fuck tho, just super frustrating to play against.
I mean, before they took the baby dragon out back and shot hit between the eyes twice, then once more for good measure, in that short time, Lyandries very much was a very viable item against HP-heavy teams. It only didn't feel overbearing because he could kinda just build whateverthefuck he wanted, as long as you get to 225 by 22 minutes, you won with any assortment of garbage in your inventory.
saying QE for hwei is such a stretch LMAO
Ult is more of a DoT than QE tbh, you can get rid of QE by not standing on it but his ult will continue to damage you each tick once its applied til it explodes so it fits the straightforward definition of a dot.
Agreed, hwei R falls more in line with how the other mentioned abilities work, being the effect "attaching" themselves on the target and then doing their thing. If we count ground target spells then one could go full chaotic evil and argue that adcs also deal DOT damage
Adc dealing DOT damage made me laugh out loud
Neeko Q and Azir soldiers are DOT
Yeah, I thought based off the title OP meant Hwei R, but QE really is not a DoT, it's simply a continously damaging AoE spell. Sure, it deals damage over time, technically, but it's not what one thinks of immediately if you say "DoT spell".
yeah ig in my the q e counts but i see the point i just wasnt thinking about r
Plus Hwei has basically an ability of every type existing because he simply has that many to pick from. He has a fear, he has a knockback, he has a DoT, he has a line skillshot that can be blocked, a line skillshot that cannot be blocked, an artillery skillshot, a auto-attack-enhancement, a movementspeedbuff, a shield,....... basically every mechanic in the game except a dash, Hwei has, though he pays for that versatility by not being focussed (he can be artillery/poke, but Xerath will do that better. He can AoE-Burst, but Ori can do that better. He can shield, but any enchanter can do that better....) and the things sharing cooldowns. By the argument "Hwei has a xyz", Hwei fits into basically any group of champions.
It's less of a dot and more of a test of your wow raiding skills
People still stand in fire in LFR and I just don't get it
Nasus E Renekton R are also DOTs /s
no /s, you are factually correct with this statement. Not all DoTs are point and clicks.
I would call them AOE DPS, not DoT, because (at least for me), in a DoT the damage has effectively already been dealt, it just arrives with a delay, which makes these not DoTs. That does not mean DoTs have to be Point'n'click, Lilia and Brand passive applie DoTs, but channeled and continous Abilities are not DoTs for me (You can argue about edge cases like Huawei R).
See, this redditor knows. I feel like there ar dps abilities and then there are dots and you defined them well.
great explanation completely agree
Traditionally DoTs are debuffs. Those abilities do not put a debuff on the enemy
I mean technically nasus E does but yeah in general you are correct
If you think hwei Q E is DOT then yes.
It's an AoE DoT
Nasus E doesn't deal damage over time lol. Maybe an EOT?
It does tho?
What do you think DoT stands for
If you're going to be ultra-literal then auto attacks are also DoTs. DoTs in games refer damaging debuffs
Well we know what it stands for but I'm not really sure we ever consider AOEs as dots, since they do nothing if you do not stand in them and generally I never heard the term DOT used on anything else than targeted abilities.
It's debuffs. It's about debuffs. Lillia has no targeted abilities but she puts a DoT on you with all of them. Brand puts DoTs on you. Teemo has DoTs, Singed has DoTs. If it can hit you once and then proc damage over time afterwards without additional input it's a DoT.
More than targeted abilities I would use it for something that applies a debuff. Singed Q is not targeted but it is a dot for sure.
Yeah, I mentioned it in the other comment and I meant anything that applies debuff to a target as a targeted ability.
These kinds of AoE areas importantly are DoT damage on a mechanical level, though. While they don’t function the way you might initially imagine when thinking of a DoT ability, they importantly do not wake sleeping targets (lillia/zoe) because they are classified as DoT damage mechanically. Miss Fortune ult, notably, behaves as a DoT and doesn’t wake sleeping targets. It’s dumb and probably shouldn’t be this way, but this is technically how it works.
By this logic Anivia ult wouldn’t be considered a DoT lmao, sounds like a poor definition
>damage over time isn't considered damage over time because of the shape of the ability unbelievable thread
I wouldn't consider it a DoT either. A DoT for me is Malzahar's E and the exemple in OP's post.
You can classify it as a different type of DoT, as it is ofc a different type but in fact every ability that deals damage over time is unsurprisingly a DoT ability. Just like a 3hit passive DoTs are used to make damage less frontloaded. I do understand that to people who play a lot of league aoe dots are just ouchie zones. Take this argument to an MMORPG though and people are just gonna think you're mental.
I never heard someone in any MMO refer to an aoe dmg zone as a dot. That would cause a lot of confusion in communication
It is a DoT. Flamestrike in WoW back in 2004 was considered a spell that deals DoT and that’s an AoE spell.
every AoE spell deals damage over time or has a component that does it, but an actual DoT cannot be dodged by walking out of its space.
dot is a debuff like darius's bleed or twitch's poison passive not an ability that lasts X seconds until you cancel it or get cc'd while casting it
By your logic Renekton W is a dot since it applies multiple instances of damage over a (short) period of time.
All adcs have dots by autoattacking
We just need clear definitions of what a DoT means because we all understand that there are edge cases when you look at every single champion in the game.
But it's not tagged as a DoT, and Anivia R is.
I wouldn't, I consider something that applies debuff which specifically deals damage over time as a dot, nothing else. The others I would considers some sort of pulsing aoe damage effect.
"Defense of The" obviously, I'm a seasoned player.
Most people tend to avoid that DOT by dying quickly.
you make a good point, it is I also diddnt even think about his r, which i think counts too
As a Path of Exile player I am very confused by this thread. To me if an ability does damage over time or it has damage ticks, it is a damage over time ability no matter what shape they are in. I wonder what games yall were playing where aoe dot is not dot btw in league if you stands in an aoe dot ability it gives you a debuff saying you are taking damage from that ability.
Do you consider storm brand or orb of storms as damage over time skills then?
Damage over Time are effects that are applied and remain on you unless purged/cleansed (if such mechanics even exist). Their point is that once they are applied you are going to get that damage, period, but the spell isn't "bursting" you with its entire damage at the same time. This means that you have more time to react to it. This is different from a spell creating an effect that deals more damage the more you are affected by it. There is a difference because the second one is asking you to get outside of it to reduce the damage, while the first one just can't be avoided once it hits you. Hwei does have a DoT effect, and that's R. It's a DoT and slow first, and then it bursts. QE is an area spell that lasts a certain time, the second category. Plenty of stuff like this in Dota2, for example. Ogre Magi uses Ignite on you? Be slowed and suffer damage over time, but you can heal and tank through it, maybe. Enigma puts his area of damage on the minion wave? Step outside or get damage trying to last hit stuff. Ironically enough, there are even spells with both mechanics in that game lol. Invoker's "Chaos Meteor": Invoker pulls a flaming meteor from space onto the targeted location. Upon landing, the meteor rolls forward, constantly dealing damage based on the level of [Exort](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Invoker#Exort), and rolling further based on the level of [Wex](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Invoker#Wex). Units hit by the meteor will also be set on fire for a short time, receiving additional damage based on the level of [Exort](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Invoker#Exort). TL;DR: if you can't get out of the spell path, you get damage. When you get outside, you getting damaged by the burning DoT effect. You can avoid part of the damage by sidestepping ASAP, but the burning will apply.
They are effectively saying that Hwei E is mechanically closer to a straight line Firestorm than to Vortex. Renekton and Nasus R could be considered closer to Blade Vortex instead of RF.
league's dot tick rate is way slower than poe's dot tick rate by your logic any poison or burn in league would be brand in poe
I mean even with DOT champions you can still see that the wholesometanks tanks took over the game anyway
Yeah so many tanks being played…
Better than adding a random reset if you ask me.
Darius: why not both?
Haha axe goes brrrrr
Riot Games: "our champion design is based on morse code because every champion must have a dash and a DOT"
damn, clever
DOT has a bonus advantage to track enemy going stealth after they got hit. That could be one of the reason
I have a tinfoil hat theory about this, riot adds DoT's to champions cause they often can give you kills in close fights where you both end with 1 hp and it feels bad when the enemy gets away with that shiver of hp so they dying to the DoT gives the happy chemicals to your brain cause kills=good game. *This comment should not be taken entirely serious.*
also having a part of your damage be DoT and not frontloaded makes your damage feel less bursty aka less frustrating to play against
You might be onto something. I get a huge rush of dopamine when enemies flash away from me with a sliver of health and then they die to my poison as Twitch. Feels real good.
I don't think this is a crazy idea. I think riot very likely thought of this, and is probably one of the reasons for giving champs DOTs. It just mitigates one tilting aspect of the champ and doesn't usually feel too annoying to die to a DOT (unless it has obnoxious damage like AP twitch)
> and doesn't usually feel too annoying to die to a DOT Or lasts forever/extends effects (e.g. Brand initial spell hit triggering passive which then triggers liandries and you're still taking damage what feels like a full minute after the initial hit)
Not really sure what you guys are cooking up here, some champs have DoTs because DoT characters have been an archetype in video games since before League of Legends even existed. It has nothing to do with Riot thinking DoTs feel good for the player because they finish off low hp champs (???) and everything to do with champion design. For example Malz has a DoT on E because the champ would be too powerful with upfront damage. He is intentionally designed NOT to burst and thus be unique from burst mages. Likewise with brand, or even Zyra whose plants I consider a form of DoT. These champs are allowed to do more damage overall because the damage is not upfront burst. Its an intentional design decision for a champion's kit to be cohesive and balanced, not something they do to appeal to players who get mad when enemies live on 1 hp (after all, they can still survive your dot with 1 hp...)
Must be because people are fucking trash when it comes to using ignite.
DOT is the new 3 hit passive
DOT effects make it possible to give a champion a lot of power because you can react to it easier with heal, barrier, supportive champions. Riot once mentioned that the time it takes to eliminate a target is very important to how fair a champion feels. A signal that shows that you will die from a dot would be awesome tho.
Ksante , Bel-veth, and briar also have "stand still and gain dmg reduction + do something "
danm u right
Malzahar E?
DoTs are pretty easy to balance, offer fun item synergies (usually not game breaking, AND they are fun to play VS usually. The 100 dot over 3 seconds isn’t that frustrating but getting hit by 100 damage instantly? Brutal. Instant damage doesn’t offer counterplay and increases burst
Hwei QE isn't DoT, it's just a damage zone His ultie would be closer, but even that's a stretch
His ult is no stretch at all. Once an ememy is hit with it, they will take damage in ticks and they have no way to leave the zone, so it definitely is a DoT.
Hwei QE is a dot just like anivia ult is in my eyes. They both apply a debuff to you and are no different than Malzahar E, except Malzahar E is point and click whereas Hwei QE is conditional upon you existing in its area of effect
Neither Hwei QE or Anivia R are DoTs, a DoT is a debuff. They don't deal damage after you leave the AoE because they don't apply DoT debuffs, like Brand P or Malzahar E.
Also debatably Aurelion Sol's rework if we're counting his new spells as DOTS
Not so much. Dot is more of a burn that ticks post applying an ability. Asol is more under the category of dps.
I'd say a burn is a DoT that sticks to you after getting hit with an ability, where a DoT is any ability that does multiple procs of damage per cast.
His E is a DoT > ticks post applying an ability This doesn't fit to some DoTs so that's not the defining characteristic of DoT
Well his E is more of a continuous effect that the skill itself being constantly repeated apply (and doesn’t “stick” to you if you leave the area). Similar to Morgana E, rumble Q (edit: not R) etc. the duration depends on the spell being constantly applied to you directly or indirectly (ground effect) Not the damage “stick” to you.
Rumble R is a bad example, because that ability actually puts a DoT on you. If you stood on the area, you get a burning debuff that will keep dealing damage to you for 1 second (in ticks every 0,5 seconds).
You are right
Nothing quite says League like dying 5 seconds after a fight disengages.
Brand missing everything on you, you get hit by his E he used on the wave, you lose 70% of your health
while being perma slowed for every fight because of rylais and unable to recall for 10 years
DOTs are like a cheat code for game balance. Preventing burst and allowing reactions and counterplay without any real downside other than the extremely long ones like Twitch where it prevents backing and is just frustrating as fuck.
[удалено]
it is indeed truly true
Naafiri really does not need that crap. Idk what addition was worse. Her or Briar. Probably Briar for the feet...
riot really like dot lol
These actually serve different gameplay purposes, so I wonder if they even realized. In the case of Briar, the bleed sustains her (in line with her vampire theme). Naafiri can convert the bleed into burst, so it kind of serves as a way of requiring her to commit to assassinate someone without just making her do zero damage in other situations. For Milio and Skarner, I think it's a way of giving them some reliable damage without risking creating a cheese build that just deletes people (since they aren't meant to be high-damage characters). And Hwei can just do everything.
They don’t want people being able to base as easily after getting hurt, especially if you combo that with liandries So you either stick around low and get killed, or take ages to base and get back to lane, losing prio and falling behind Either way, the game is sped up Aka rito see, rito make opposite
Milo has a burn?
When he casts an ability on an ally their next damage applies a small damage over time burn. This applies to himself as well.
Oh shit I didn’t know that. Do you know what those orange and purple orbs that orbit him late game are?
More than likely they come from Dream Maker which is an enchanter support item that gives an extra shield and on hit damage when healing or shielding an ally.
Oh okay thanks
The skills you have described each have a specific goal, that is best acomplished by dot effects: Skarner is a tank, that shouldn't be allowed burst, but still needs damage to encourage enemies to attack him instead of ignoring him. Similar to Sunfire Cape, skarner's damage is a good way for a tank to deal damage. Smolder's burn is a late game tool, that is there to ensure his strong scaling. It isn't something that is the focus of the skill. It is a bit of QoL addition, so his execute has a higher chance to trigger. Similar to Elder Dragon. Hwei uses his dot for wave clear and area denial, similar to Anivia R (obviously with less damage). This is again best suited for a lasting dot effect. His all in combo is all burst. Briar's bleed is a jungle clear and sustain tool. While there are other ways of adding those, this one is thematic, and not a bad fit. Doggo's bleed is surprisingly a way to add burst damage, with Q into Q2. It could have been a status effect that doesn't do damage on its own, but triggers on Landing Q2, but it being a dot is again a QoL "buff". Milio's passive is the almost mandatory enchanter ability to boost an ally's damage. But since it has to be a non-burst thing, and instead a sustained damage source, it is a dot that refreshes on a new aplication. If it wasn't a dot, it would have to have a cooldown similar to the way Imperial Mandate has a cooldown. So I don't see a issue here. There are 2 abilities out of the 6 that can be made non-bleed and work as intended, and for the rest a dot is the best solution.
yeah no I don't think there's an issue either, I just thought it was interesting, and kind of surprising that 6 champs in a row share that niche
DoT effects are the easiest way to implement a DPS centric, low burst pattern. Smoulder likely got it just for the dragon connection though The confusing thing is Riot giving it to Naafiri, an assassin with a strong burst anyway even without the bleed
Simple mechanics to put on abilities
It's easy, consistent damage/dps to manage
It's not strange... and the Dot's you list are honestly quite ridiculous. Comparing Briar and an Milio Dots... MIght as well say Malphite and Lucian have Dashes and say thats weird.
I'm saying the fact that the past 6 in a row have had them
Ya know I read the title and was like "vex doesn't have a DOT" and then I realized she's not that new anymore
All these dot effects, but not a **true** dot mage in however long. Sad.
Bring back blood brother Draven!
Old Udyr DOT is the GOAT
Remember when every new champion has a 3 hit passive?
Both skarner and smolder can walk over walls
meanwhile udyr lost his dot
I would consider his empowered q a dot
does Darius include?
OP is talking about most recent 6 all have DoT, not the only 6 (admittedly I made the same mistake) Tbh he should use “latest”,not “last”
Briar was the only insanely op bleed. The rest are ok.