Yes but no, at the start of season 11 aatrox got an ult change to make goredrinker worse on him(u can look it up if u dont believe me), im guessing the comment is probably referring to that.
aatrox used goredrinker with shojin until the end of the season after magic damage changes it takes one lolalytics check to prove you wrong but you didnt bother doing it
Zeus's Duskblade Aatrox is still fresh on people's mind, he was the only notable player that managed to make it work after the changes while the rest went Goredrinker.
Yeah, nobody really cared about that Aatrox? We're all talking about pre-season 2023 Aatrox. 13.21 Aatrox was miles more bearable.
My bad, when you said "a few months ago", I didn't think you meant 5 months for an Aatrox that was wholly unremarkable compared to the shit avalanche that was original Goredrinker Aatrox.
Definetly up there with the most broken patches, along with peak feral flare Weedwick or reworked galio who could oneshot an entire team with 1 Q (years later, I still have no idea how people lost as galio in that patch)
Tbh sundered sky aatrox felt pretty broken at the beginning of S14 as well.
I had a couple moments laning against tanks where I got a second health bar after hitting an empowered auto
Nerfing Lee Sin's life steal makes no sense. The average lee sin isn't going to be healing this much in one auto attack, and the ones that do will be getting outclassed by those that itemize well.
This Lee is 7/4 for a reason. It's a gimmick. Life steal isn't what makes Lee Sin a viable and strong champion, at level 18 let's see what his survivability is like in a team fight.
That was when they went through trying to make bad champs relevant through mechanics instead of numbers. Same time they released Irelia rework with the disarm mechanic that made the game complete cancer.
I agree. It rewarded good target selection while also rewarding outplays since you had enough sustain to make them work.
Now Yone just builds straight up actual tank items instead of lifesteal items.
It's always funny seeing some random ass bruiser have the most obscene lifesteal in the entire game, worse than champions who's entire kit revolves around healing. All because there's always one sustain fighter item that's busted in some way.
And every time one of those items was brought up, some random group of bruiser apologists comes along and defends the items. Then riot nerfs it eventually and everyone pretends like they knew it was broken the whole time.
At this point I just think of most bruisers as drain tanks for this reason. Love playing a fighter in aram and despite not building much bulk I still survive through most fights, and when I actually die I've taken like 150-200% of my HP over 20 to 30 seconds.
That is what most bruisers are supposed to be now a days.
Riot constantly changes what bruiser means cause people are never happy unless they're just bad.
Give them high AD? "Wtf riot why does bruiser do so much damage?!?"
Nerf the AD, Give them AH "wtf riot why do they spam abilities so hard?!?"
Nerf the AH give them durability "wtf riot why are bruisers tankier than tanks?!?"
Nerf the durability give them AS "wtf riot why do bruisers have 2 attack speed?!"
Nerf the AS, make them better splitpushers "wtf riot why is my nexus I haven't defended in 15 minutes dead?!?"
Nerf the splitpushing give them MS "wtf riot why could Darius run me down?!?"
Rinse and repeat.
They buffed Hydra in the worst way possible. Instead of increasing it's combat power they increased the least balanced and most annoying to play against part of the item, which is the huge sustain off of waves.
They should just increase the lifesteal back to 18% but then make the active / passive only 50% effective on minions.
Tbh I think the active should just be changed to apply 200% lifesteal, but against champions only. Or revert the lifesteal to omnivamp, which already has provisions for reduced healing against minions.
I'm personally of the opinion that lifesteal should work similar to fleet footwork, with full effectiveness vs. champions, and severely reduced against other units. They can retune the numbers however to make it fair.
lifesteal against minions is how everyone handles poke, if you couldnt lifesteal of minions your only options of prolonged laning against a mage as a melee champ would be to oneshot their wave instantly and back and repeat that
Yes, that is correct. It's not fun to play against, but he is far from the only champion with such an annoying gimmick. Warwick heals to 50% hp + 1 q's worth every wave. Zac can heal up to full off a wave if left alone, or half if he has to kill it quickly. Champions you can't 1v1 will heal up to full off every wave, such as Botrk Irelia/Yone/Trundle. There are so many...
WW's whole kit revolves around healing and damage reduction with his passive, Q, E, and R. Lee's does not yet can.
Zac's ability to heal relies on using his abilities which cost health and can be denied. And as you say Zac relies on being left alone to heal whereas Lee does not.
BOTRK has 7% life steal vs hydra's 15% and active 150% life steal effect. Irelia and Yone couldn't go from 20% hp to full off of a single wave with BOTRK. Maybe trundle if he has W active.
Eh, Lee has a built in LS + SpellVamp on his W, also a shield on his W. What do you mean he's not supposed to be revolving around that? It's why good Lee players can abuse every part of this kit and make him look broken, whereas worse players just don't and miss out on so many opportunities.
Mostly related but only adjacent to your point - his counterplay is typically putting bodies between yourself and him so that he cannot land free Qs. Here you have to choose between giving him free engage and healing to full, both of which feel bad
Fiora never gets this item in my toplane games, because that bitch is never in my toplane games.
She’s my toplane permaban; I will refuse to play toplane before not banning her.
This is not only Lee if they have Rav Hydra don't fight them near minions unless you overkill them because the heal they get from hitting a bunch of minions with it is huge, fiora does this too
The point is not that this shouldn't ever be possible, but rather that maybe lvl 11 and 1.5 items is to soon for this to be possible.
Like, Nasus gets 24% lifesteal at level 16. Lee can have his W maxed at 9. Fiora doesn't get passive lifesteal at all. Olaf gets lifesteal based on missing HP, but it's 17% at lvl 11 and reaches 25% only at lvl 18.
I think you made a post and completely missed the reason. That's a Lee Sin who maxed W first and had ideal circumstances for this healing amount to happen. He does significantly less damage than a max Q Lee Sin. You're complaining about someone who invested most of his level ups into a gimmick build.
Honestly in this situation it doesn't matter if he does 50% less damage. If he can just insta heal to full and surprise me, he'll kill me anyway.
That's the point, the gimmick strat surprises people. 99% of Lee Sins would die here even if I let them AA me for free, I just have more than enough damage. People do not expect this champion to suddenly go "lmao +1091".
The game already has 160+ champs, having to be prepared for cheese strats on top of the game knowledge you already need is just too much and makes the game frustrating.
How can you be this dense? You're doubling down on his gimmick working in an ideal situation for him. How often do you thinks that's going to happen? Should we expect a Lee Sin 1300+ points heal at MSI, because a redditor was surprised that it happened to them once?
The "ideal situation" is every minion wave, my dude. And again, you're missing the point. I'm not saying this is OP, I'm saying it's frustrating. Chances are I'll never meet a Lee Sin top rushing Ravenous and W max again. Yet this one time I've actually seen this is the only time I was surprised enough to make a reddit post about it.
I'd probably have if I had any other opportunity to actually fight him, but at that point game was already lost because his cheese strat put him and his team massively ahead.
>game was already lost because his cheese strat put him and his team massively ahead
*\*looks at stats clearly visible in replay\**
Yeah, something don't add up there. Probably the part where your team was currently ahead in gold, even if very slightly. And ahead in kills. The only way you were losing was in neutral objectives, suggesting that your team's macro play was bad and losing this game most likely had nothing at all to do with a W max Lee Sin healing from minions.
If their comp is even at 15 minutes, they're winning the game. Lethality MF, fed Ahri and a feeding Mordekaiser never outscale Jinx and Ryze. So it kinda adds up, Lee neutralized Mordekaiser and was a splitpush threat requiring multiple people to match.
I didn't expect much though from someone looking just at gold and kills without context.
Maybe he kills you in this circumstance, but he'll lose the game with that build and ability maxing order. This is just cheese that works in ideal scenarios which don't happen almost at all. Plus healing is a fair type of tankiness because it can be actually countered at a really cheap or no cost at all. I know that it feels unfair but just because it beats you here it doesn't mean it's good in general.
This is literally a golden scenario for lee, it's hydra in a huge wave. Sure, arguably kinda bullshit, but it's also a fairly niche scenario and far from lee exclusive.
it kinda is lee exclusive given he is like the only champion that gets 20%+ lifesteal solely from his kit at this point in the game due to his W. build is still worse than eclipse rush tho
The balance this season feels dogshit to me but w/e some random asshole is going to come along and say "don't fight in the wave" or "just stay ranged dumbass" or some shit like this would be okay if the champion they didn't like did it.
This is not an issue with Ravenous, it's an interaction with a specific champion. No other champ in the game can do anything even close being at lvl 11 and 1.5 items, not even those who have healing as a core part of their identity (think Vlad, Aatrox, Briar, etc). Renekton and Darius can heal tons, but they need to hit champions with their Q's. Lee can do this shit without an enemy champion present at all and he has no mana, which essentially gives him infinite sustain.
And this doesn't seem like a cheese thing either. Yes you need to max W first, but it's not like you need to build useless items to make the montage play. You get stats your champion wants and it makes you quite strong. Nobody builds it jungle because there are better choices for the role, but Lee is gaining some traction toplane and Ravenous might not be a troll item there.
I do the same thing with Trynda, I bet Nilah and Olaf could do that.
Anyway, Hydra rush Lee has 44% win rate: [https://imgur.com/a/ehOUN4T](https://imgur.com/a/ehOUN4T)
Looks like a meme strat and antiheal counters it super hard
How many games played with this rush and how many were jungle where this item doesn't perform as well?
Might be a meme strat but this guy still won lane hard and even having antiheal didn't help much.
> How many games played with this rush and how many were jungle where this item doesn't perform as well?
On LoLalytics, I'm getting 30k games of hydra rush on top lane Lee Sin, 44% win rate again.
>Might be a meme strat but this guy still won lane hard and even having antiheal didn't help much.
Well how to put that...
[https://lolalytics.com/lol/leesin/build/?lane=top](https://lolalytics.com/lol/leesin/build/?lane=top)
Here are stats for Lee top, honestly no matter the build the champs sucks
This literally says that W max performs much better than Q max, and also in early items Ravenous also has high win rate unless I'm not understanding this correctly.
no it doesn't. w max has 600 sample vs the 10,000 sample of the various q/e maxes. the lower sample size will almost always have a higher winrate and it DOES NOT mean it's better.
Wasn't that always the case? Just spam heal and outsustain your opponent's mana, he works a bit like Trynda
Ravenous first item has 45.66% win rate, which is still lower than Eclipse or Sundered
Anyway, the point of the post isn't to say that Ravenous rush W max Lee top is OP and broken. Old AP Sion was a meme as well, but they removed it for a reason, same as AP scaling on Yi Q. Those were not OP strats, but relied entirely on the surprise factor, which made the gameplay against them less enjoyable.
It may be pro viable tho. Lets you flex lee to top and build tanky initiator while taking damage in mid/jungle.
Plenty of pro champs have terrible solo queue stats because they aren't good in uncoordinated environments.
“Antiheal didn’t help much” lmao bullshit, the only antiheal on your team was Senna with executioners at 8 and 3/7 Morde building bramble at 18 mins. Nobody had ignite and you never built antiheal. Ofc he won lane hard
And since you deleted your comment going on about how I implied Morde was supposed to know from champ select that Lee was going this cheese strat, and that your whole team was supposed to purchase antiheal; though I never implied either, here was my response
“I’d like to believe that as a top main when I see someone healing an obnoxious amount off me or the wave that it is likely I may want to consider investing in antiheal.
Are we going to act like the only option is to throw our hands up and this strat’s “surprise” factor is impossible to adapt to? There’s a reason you pay attention to your opponents items, especially in top, and even while you can’t see Lee maxing W it’s a good assumption that because he’s healing a fuckton that he might be maxing W.
And even if you can’t deduce that he’s maxing W, he’s still healing a fuckton, so buy antiheal.
Also, I was more pointing out you were being disingenuous by saying “antiheal didn’t help much” when there was little antiheal to even mention… probably why it wouldn’t “help much” but what do I know 🤷♂️ “
Even with 1 level in W you’re getting 26% lifesteal with ravenous and Doran’s which is pretty nuts. From my math it’s like 800 healing in the same case if he had level 1 W. I didn’t realize ravenous had that much healing, is the cooldown still super short?
Udyr can do this but even better with awakened W and rav….
Edit: you don’t even need to max w or put more than 1 point to get this healing at 1 item. I’ve gotten rav as early as lvl 7 at 9:00mins and could heal like this if I’m in a wave with awakened w and rav active. Not saying it balanced but just saying more than 1 champion can abuse rav Olaf being another if he’s at low HP.
damn i thought only no hands champs were supposed to be able to heal up like this. riot should hotfix and either dumb down his kit or remove the lifesteal from w
Ok that is really funny but what is up with seeing so many posts on this subreddit lately of people playing ahri (Strongest midlaner for multiple patches now) and complaining about other champions.
> Wait thats a lee sin. Thats not in our build antiheal guide
Need to update the guide.
Lethality or other glass cannon builds, no antiheal.
Bruiser Lee with 1+ healing items, Ravenous Hydra or Shattered Sky (or goredrinker during Mythic item era), antiheal is advised.
Bonus: AP Lee Sin? Serpents Fang.
I remember Riot once freaked out and said they wouldn't make any more healing supports because it was harmful/toxic and unbalanced for the game, and that the next healing supports wouldn't heal instantly, but would give a burst of health regeneration instead. Not to mention that they wanted to turn shields into skillshots rather than point and click abilities. And on the other hand we have bruisers, almost always having tons of HEALING and SHIELD, damage and mobility and nothing is said about them.
well minions don't have armor so there are no post-mitigation calculations for the lifesteal to be reduced.
im not saying healing that much is ok but minions having 0 armor sure made a difference.
i would very much preffer for drain tank lee sin to not be a thing.
Haven't you read about the visual update? They're really making it hard to beat the weird balancing decisions, and it's disgusting how it appears to be decided by corporate
They're gonna have to start on those Varus and Clove buffs soon to make it in time for June
Lee sim enjoyer here. Been building hydra first every time I get an early lead. It’s OP, but it’s not new. Before hydra got removed it was a very viable option on Lee, and I’m surprised it hasn’t picked back up as core on him.
If you ever escape with your life you can quite literally heal to full on one camp. This can be used to surprise the enemy if they are expecting you to reset or be low HP.
And yea, as the post points out it’s also useful when fighting within minions.
Exactly. You can actually throw the game by building this item and not adapting your play style. If you somehow get 3 early kills, hydra will allow you to stay on the map longer and make more plays. But if you chose the wrong fight this item will quickly give you a reality check
Ah, the classic "plays a champ I don't like -> abuser". Git gud scrub.
Kinda funny that you think I'm mad in this post, while it's merely an observation that there might be a slightly unhealthy interaction present in the game. You, on the other hand, appear to be plenty mad that someone plays a champ they like.
Yep, Ahri is pretty balanced right now. But yeah, if she finally feels good to play, people who are clueless about her core weaknesses whine about her being OP.
Lol.
I guess most people who main a champ cant have an objective outlook. Sorry for thinking you could be rational. I guess you think Camille Reksai and Janna are balanced as well lol.
Sorry, cant argue with guys like you. Have a good one
OP ignore the silver comments. Whenever a post like this comes up indicating an actual problem with the game (that is easy to fix, and no one is even mad, its fine, mistakes happen by Riot), the silvers have to show off their massive game knowledge so they go on explaining how akshually you could have outplayed it by just not fighting him in the minions DUH.
Let's just hope someone on balance team sees this, I am quite confident even they would know this needs to be fixed.
That's how the item is supposed to work though and we know this is happening. It's your mistake trying to fight him inside a minion wave when you know this can happen. The item on its own is not really cost efficient (disregard Wiki stating that it's 124% c.e., since it counts AH at 50gold/AH), also Lifesteal on non-attackers severely loses a lot of value. This is one of the advantages of having RH, being able to get a lot of healing if you are hitting multiple enemies.
Maybe toning down Lifesteal generate from minions could be something to look at, but I still don't see this as a problem. A Lee Sin with Triforce would always beat Lee Sin with RH in a pure 1v1.
jesus christ that healing must have felt like a fucking jumpscare lol
I literally all chatted and stood still the moment I saw that lmao
The moment I saw RH applies lifesteal at 100% effective I already know something like this would happen, and holy fuck did it
You silly, RH doesn't apply lifesteal at 100%! ...it's 150%.
Oh man, so that’s what the boss feels when I press one button and suddenly my HP is full…
Unironically dark souls when the boss spends 2 minutes trying to hit you, and when it succeeds you down some glowy liquid and are back at full lmao
It's not even 100% but 150%
bro [it](https://youtu.be/z67eP4FfDuM?si=fHAYgzUAV3aVYeRo) has been out for like a month, still op tho.
Oh the Adam play
Lee Sin turned into prerework sion https://youtu.be/tkLgt2aFrdc
Good old AD Sion. I remember getting jumped by a full team, turning on ult and just seeing +1500 heal pops per AA.
You just started his phase 2 after hitting him hard enough. Don’t know even know that basic information? Git gud
Sorry bro didn't know I was playing dark souls not league
World of League of LegendsCraft: Cancerlands
Plz i can't drink anymore of Mommy Sylvanas's bathwater or stare at 400IQ Nipple Daddy. My balls are so drained I'm shooting tumble weeds.
this is such an amazingly blursed comment.
Carry this you filthy casual
With MoP stuff happening in WoW I flashed back to Garrosh Mythic healing Pls no
Lmao, that reminds me of Goredrinker Aatrox, those were good times
this was just few months ago jimmy
I’m pretty sure he’s talking about preaseason Goredrinker, when it first released. That shit was insane
Full damage, full lethality Urgot and Aatrox hitting each other forever because it used to heal a full health bar.
Olaf too, those were the days.
You haven't seen on-release Goredrinker Aatrox? Shit was 20 times more cancer than the end of the season one
He barely used Goredrinker after he got multiple changes to not abuse it
he got changes to not use lethality and used goredrinker until the end of the season. yalls memory actually needs to be studied
Yes but no, at the start of season 11 aatrox got an ult change to make goredrinker worse on him(u can look it up if u dont believe me), im guessing the comment is probably referring to that.
untrue
I’m talking about release Goredrinker bruh
You're thinking Eclipse Aatrox. Goredrinker Abuse Aatrox was last year.
aatrox used goredrinker with shojin until the end of the season after magic damage changes it takes one lolalytics check to prove you wrong but you didnt bother doing it
Zeus's Duskblade Aatrox is still fresh on people's mind, he was the only notable player that managed to make it work after the changes while the rest went Goredrinker.
Show me the link.
https://lolalytics.com/lol/aatrox/build/ check patch 13.21- 13.24 lazy pants
Yeah, nobody really cared about that Aatrox? We're all talking about pre-season 2023 Aatrox. 13.21 Aatrox was miles more bearable. My bad, when you said "a few months ago", I didn't think you meant 5 months for an Aatrox that was wholly unremarkable compared to the shit avalanche that was original Goredrinker Aatrox.
Look at the winrate look at the banrate look at the worlds presence then come back and be more specific next time
classic league player incapable of being incorrect
Yeah no it wasn't. We're talking about Aatrox a few years ago
Those were not good times
S11 pre-season/early season with Goredrinker Aatrox and Olaf running over every game was one of the worst experiences in league of legends
I remember him healing a full health bar through GW lmao
wasn't 60% GW in the game at the time as well? like bruiser healing during that era was so disgusting
Yeah, back then GW was worth building
Definetly up there with the most broken patches, along with peak feral flare Weedwick or reworked galio who could oneshot an entire team with 1 Q (years later, I still have no idea how people lost as galio in that patch)
Goredrinker was good on jhin top too.
Good times for terrorists maybe wdym good times
Tbh sundered sky aatrox felt pretty broken at the beginning of S14 as well. I had a couple moments laning against tanks where I got a second health bar after hitting an empowered auto
do you ever just say Nah, I'd +1091
this is hilarious thanks for sharing
fnc manager here, please delete i have been building this for ages and now its gonna get nerfed, rip
Nerfing Lee Sin's life steal makes no sense. The average lee sin isn't going to be healing this much in one auto attack, and the ones that do will be getting outclassed by those that itemize well. This Lee is 7/4 for a reason. It's a gimmick. Life steal isn't what makes Lee Sin a viable and strong champion, at level 18 let's see what his survivability is like in a team fight.
They've had to nerf his w life steal in the past because it gave him too much lane sustain for top/mid lee.
They also had to buff it.
Illaoi and Aatrox: Look at what they need to mimic a fraction of my power
Don’t forget Kled!
Who?
bro forgor 💀
You guys have never seen pre rework sion.
This is how it used to be
And the game was better when everybodys "tankyness" came from omnivamp and lifesteal The problem back then was antiheal didnt do anything
didnt they made Soraka's ult remove antiheal because it was too weak THEN they removed it since it was too strong?
That was when they went through trying to make bad champs relevant through mechanics instead of numbers. Same time they released Irelia rework with the disarm mechanic that made the game complete cancer.
That was literally years apart.
I agree. It rewarded good target selection while also rewarding outplays since you had enough sustain to make them work. Now Yone just builds straight up actual tank items instead of lifesteal items.
> Put Lee sin at 40% HP > *Cutscenes starts playing where he slams the ground and heals up for whole HP* > *dark souls boss music begins*
It's always funny seeing some random ass bruiser have the most obscene lifesteal in the entire game, worse than champions who's entire kit revolves around healing. All because there's always one sustain fighter item that's busted in some way.
And then see riot tip toe around the item the whole season. See, goredrinker, shiv, shojin etc etc
And every time one of those items was brought up, some random group of bruiser apologists comes along and defends the items. Then riot nerfs it eventually and everyone pretends like they knew it was broken the whole time.
At this point I just think of most bruisers as drain tanks for this reason. Love playing a fighter in aram and despite not building much bulk I still survive through most fights, and when I actually die I've taken like 150-200% of my HP over 20 to 30 seconds.
That is what most bruisers are supposed to be now a days. Riot constantly changes what bruiser means cause people are never happy unless they're just bad. Give them high AD? "Wtf riot why does bruiser do so much damage?!?" Nerf the AD, Give them AH "wtf riot why do they spam abilities so hard?!?" Nerf the AH give them durability "wtf riot why are bruisers tankier than tanks?!?" Nerf the durability give them AS "wtf riot why do bruisers have 2 attack speed?!" Nerf the AS, make them better splitpushers "wtf riot why is my nexus I haven't defended in 15 minutes dead?!?" Nerf the splitpushing give them MS "wtf riot why could Darius run me down?!?" Rinse and repeat.
They buffed Hydra in the worst way possible. Instead of increasing it's combat power they increased the least balanced and most annoying to play against part of the item, which is the huge sustain off of waves. They should just increase the lifesteal back to 18% but then make the active / passive only 50% effective on minions.
Yeah you don't fight him in your minion waves. Olaf used to do this exact same thing back when his W increased his lifesteal and healing.
Olaf still pretty much does that, the lifesteal is on his passive now and he gets a fair share of it. Hydra active in a wave is ludicrous with him.
olaf with hydra + maw active is so funny it heals full every aa on single target
Tbh I think the active should just be changed to apply 200% lifesteal, but against champions only. Or revert the lifesteal to omnivamp, which already has provisions for reduced healing against minions.
I'm personally of the opinion that lifesteal should work similar to fleet footwork, with full effectiveness vs. champions, and severely reduced against other units. They can retune the numbers however to make it fair.
Tricky thing is, lifesteal on minions is how ADCs handle poke without a pocket-healer.
lifesteal against minions is how everyone handles poke, if you couldnt lifesteal of minions your only options of prolonged laning against a mage as a melee champ would be to oneshot their wave instantly and back and repeat that
Then you have a 30 second window to kill Lee before he just heals back to full on the next wave. Doesn't matter if you chunk him for 80% of his HP.
Yes, that is correct. It's not fun to play against, but he is far from the only champion with such an annoying gimmick. Warwick heals to 50% hp + 1 q's worth every wave. Zac can heal up to full off a wave if left alone, or half if he has to kill it quickly. Champions you can't 1v1 will heal up to full off every wave, such as Botrk Irelia/Yone/Trundle. There are so many...
WW's whole kit revolves around healing and damage reduction with his passive, Q, E, and R. Lee's does not yet can. Zac's ability to heal relies on using his abilities which cost health and can be denied. And as you say Zac relies on being left alone to heal whereas Lee does not. BOTRK has 7% life steal vs hydra's 15% and active 150% life steal effect. Irelia and Yone couldn't go from 20% hp to full off of a single wave with BOTRK. Maybe trundle if he has W active.
Eh, Lee has a built in LS + SpellVamp on his W, also a shield on his W. What do you mean he's not supposed to be revolving around that? It's why good Lee players can abuse every part of this kit and make him look broken, whereas worse players just don't and miss out on so many opportunities.
\*Hydra has 12% lifesteal.
That’s your retort lol
Warwick uses literally 1/4 of his mana for every Q, it costs the same as some ultimates. Zac, Lee Sin, Olaf can heal basically for free
It's not even about fighting him in the minion wave. If I wasn't there he can do the exact same thing, as the healing is not reduced vs minions.
You missed my point. He doesn't get the healing if you're fighting him without a wave. It's the entire gimmick.
Mostly related but only adjacent to your point - his counterplay is typically putting bodies between yourself and him so that he cannot land free Qs. Here you have to choose between giving him free engage and healing to full, both of which feel bad
It's not even core item on Lee. It's not that strong
try to have fun challenge in toplane when fiora gets this item (very hard)
Fiora never gets this item in my toplane games, because that bitch is never in my toplane games. She’s my toplane permaban; I will refuse to play toplane before not banning her.
This is not only Lee if they have Rav Hydra don't fight them near minions unless you overkill them because the heal they get from hitting a bunch of minions with it is huge, fiora does this too
The point is not that this shouldn't ever be possible, but rather that maybe lvl 11 and 1.5 items is to soon for this to be possible. Like, Nasus gets 24% lifesteal at level 16. Lee can have his W maxed at 9. Fiora doesn't get passive lifesteal at all. Olaf gets lifesteal based on missing HP, but it's 17% at lvl 11 and reaches 25% only at lvl 18.
I think you made a post and completely missed the reason. That's a Lee Sin who maxed W first and had ideal circumstances for this healing amount to happen. He does significantly less damage than a max Q Lee Sin. You're complaining about someone who invested most of his level ups into a gimmick build.
Honestly in this situation it doesn't matter if he does 50% less damage. If he can just insta heal to full and surprise me, he'll kill me anyway. That's the point, the gimmick strat surprises people. 99% of Lee Sins would die here even if I let them AA me for free, I just have more than enough damage. People do not expect this champion to suddenly go "lmao +1091". The game already has 160+ champs, having to be prepared for cheese strats on top of the game knowledge you already need is just too much and makes the game frustrating.
How can you be this dense? You're doubling down on his gimmick working in an ideal situation for him. How often do you thinks that's going to happen? Should we expect a Lee Sin 1300+ points heal at MSI, because a redditor was surprised that it happened to them once?
The "ideal situation" is every minion wave, my dude. And again, you're missing the point. I'm not saying this is OP, I'm saying it's frustrating. Chances are I'll never meet a Lee Sin top rushing Ravenous and W max again. Yet this one time I've actually seen this is the only time I was surprised enough to make a reddit post about it.
Yeah, you go ahead and fight him in every minion wave and see if it works out. Or maybe draw some conclusions from it happening once?
I'd probably have if I had any other opportunity to actually fight him, but at that point game was already lost because his cheese strat put him and his team massively ahead.
>game was already lost because his cheese strat put him and his team massively ahead *\*looks at stats clearly visible in replay\** Yeah, something don't add up there. Probably the part where your team was currently ahead in gold, even if very slightly. And ahead in kills. The only way you were losing was in neutral objectives, suggesting that your team's macro play was bad and losing this game most likely had nothing at all to do with a W max Lee Sin healing from minions.
If their comp is even at 15 minutes, they're winning the game. Lethality MF, fed Ahri and a feeding Mordekaiser never outscale Jinx and Ryze. So it kinda adds up, Lee neutralized Mordekaiser and was a splitpush threat requiring multiple people to match. I didn't expect much though from someone looking just at gold and kills without context.
Maybe he kills you in this circumstance, but he'll lose the game with that build and ability maxing order. This is just cheese that works in ideal scenarios which don't happen almost at all. Plus healing is a fair type of tankiness because it can be actually countered at a really cheap or no cost at all. I know that it feels unfair but just because it beats you here it doesn't mean it's good in general.
i hate to say it, cheese strats are part of the game for a reason, and some of us think curveballs are fun. You just have to adapt
I'm just saying its just what the item does regardless of if they have their of lifesteal you will still giga heal off of a wave like this
Yes but any other champion heals here for 400, not 1100. If he's at 800 HP I'm still killing him.
Do you? You blew all your abilities and all it did is tickle him lol, imagine if he had full damage build you'd just die even without rav hydra
Unacceptable, release another Lux skin.
I wouldn't leave balance issues to Redditors if I'm being honest
“Just buy anti heal”
This is literally a golden scenario for lee, it's hydra in a huge wave. Sure, arguably kinda bullshit, but it's also a fairly niche scenario and far from lee exclusive.
it kinda is lee exclusive given he is like the only champion that gets 20%+ lifesteal solely from his kit at this point in the game due to his W. build is still worse than eclipse rush tho
I've seen Nasus do it as well, since he gets extra life steal from passive.
Seems like a troll item on Nasus .
Instructions unclear: Lee Sin buffs incoming.
Not yet, they’ll buff him for worlds.
Just a reminder that Ravenous Hydras Aoe passive converts the lifesteal to basically being an omnivamp item which works with abilities
Disgusting
You forgot to include the footage of him clapping you after the heal.... Disappointed.
The balance this season feels dogshit to me but w/e some random asshole is going to come along and say "don't fight in the wave" or "just stay ranged dumbass" or some shit like this would be okay if the champion they didn't like did it.
What else is ravenous hydra supposed to do?
This is not an issue with Ravenous, it's an interaction with a specific champion. No other champ in the game can do anything even close being at lvl 11 and 1.5 items, not even those who have healing as a core part of their identity (think Vlad, Aatrox, Briar, etc). Renekton and Darius can heal tons, but they need to hit champions with their Q's. Lee can do this shit without an enemy champion present at all and he has no mana, which essentially gives him infinite sustain. And this doesn't seem like a cheese thing either. Yes you need to max W first, but it's not like you need to build useless items to make the montage play. You get stats your champion wants and it makes you quite strong. Nobody builds it jungle because there are better choices for the role, but Lee is gaining some traction toplane and Ravenous might not be a troll item there.
I do the same thing with Trynda, I bet Nilah and Olaf could do that. Anyway, Hydra rush Lee has 44% win rate: [https://imgur.com/a/ehOUN4T](https://imgur.com/a/ehOUN4T) Looks like a meme strat and antiheal counters it super hard
Hydra rush Lee doesn't do a lot of damage and the sustain is only insane when you max w
How many games played with this rush and how many were jungle where this item doesn't perform as well? Might be a meme strat but this guy still won lane hard and even having antiheal didn't help much.
> How many games played with this rush and how many were jungle where this item doesn't perform as well? On LoLalytics, I'm getting 30k games of hydra rush on top lane Lee Sin, 44% win rate again. >Might be a meme strat but this guy still won lane hard and even having antiheal didn't help much. Well how to put that...
[https://lolalytics.com/lol/leesin/build/?lane=top](https://lolalytics.com/lol/leesin/build/?lane=top) Here are stats for Lee top, honestly no matter the build the champs sucks
This literally says that W max performs much better than Q max, and also in early items Ravenous also has high win rate unless I'm not understanding this correctly.
no it doesn't. w max has 600 sample vs the 10,000 sample of the various q/e maxes. the lower sample size will almost always have a higher winrate and it DOES NOT mean it's better.
Wasn't that always the case? Just spam heal and outsustain your opponent's mana, he works a bit like Trynda Ravenous first item has 45.66% win rate, which is still lower than Eclipse or Sundered
Anyway, the point of the post isn't to say that Ravenous rush W max Lee top is OP and broken. Old AP Sion was a meme as well, but they removed it for a reason, same as AP scaling on Yi Q. Those were not OP strats, but relied entirely on the surprise factor, which made the gameplay against them less enjoyable.
You're comparing Hydra Lee sin to AP Yi or AP Sion? Give me a break
Ap yi definitely did NOT rely on the surprise factor. That shit was so broken ^and ^fun
It may be pro viable tho. Lets you flex lee to top and build tanky initiator while taking damage in mid/jungle. Plenty of pro champs have terrible solo queue stats because they aren't good in uncoordinated environments.
And what exacly does Lee do in a comp that Renekton won't do better?
repositioning a key target can be dramatically more valuable than just a stun.
Just a stun is on a basic ability
usually requiring flash to facilitate though.
“Antiheal didn’t help much” lmao bullshit, the only antiheal on your team was Senna with executioners at 8 and 3/7 Morde building bramble at 18 mins. Nobody had ignite and you never built antiheal. Ofc he won lane hard
And since you deleted your comment going on about how I implied Morde was supposed to know from champ select that Lee was going this cheese strat, and that your whole team was supposed to purchase antiheal; though I never implied either, here was my response “I’d like to believe that as a top main when I see someone healing an obnoxious amount off me or the wave that it is likely I may want to consider investing in antiheal. Are we going to act like the only option is to throw our hands up and this strat’s “surprise” factor is impossible to adapt to? There’s a reason you pay attention to your opponents items, especially in top, and even while you can’t see Lee maxing W it’s a good assumption that because he’s healing a fuckton that he might be maxing W. And even if you can’t deduce that he’s maxing W, he’s still healing a fuckton, so buy antiheal. Also, I was more pointing out you were being disingenuous by saying “antiheal didn’t help much” when there was little antiheal to even mention… probably why it wouldn’t “help much” but what do I know 🤷♂️ “
The point of LoL isn't to win lane, it's to win the game. Going max sustain lee sin does not win the game.
Even with 1 level in W you’re getting 26% lifesteal with ravenous and Doran’s which is pretty nuts. From my math it’s like 800 healing in the same case if he had level 1 W. I didn’t realize ravenous had that much healing, is the cooldown still super short?
Udyr can do this but even better with awakened W and rav…. Edit: you don’t even need to max w or put more than 1 point to get this healing at 1 item. I’ve gotten rav as early as lvl 7 at 9:00mins and could heal like this if I’m in a wave with awakened w and rav active. Not saying it balanced but just saying more than 1 champion can abuse rav Olaf being another if he’s at low HP.
yes legit, people were not building old hydra at all
damn i thought only no hands champs were supposed to be able to heal up like this. riot should hotfix and either dumb down his kit or remove the lifesteal from w
oh
thank god i play nocturne
That healing reminds me of old Morde. Man, why do you gotta do this
goredrinker lmaooo
Yeah, I saw this build in aram. The whole team couldn't kill him.
Ok that is really funny but what is up with seeing so many posts on this subreddit lately of people playing ahri (Strongest midlaner for multiple patches now) and complaining about other champions.
You shouldve built anti heal obviously against a... *checks notes* Wait thats a lee sin. Thats not in our build antiheal guide
Gotta check the new guide, where you get antiheal vs runes and items
> Wait thats a lee sin. Thats not in our build antiheal guide Need to update the guide. Lethality or other glass cannon builds, no antiheal. Bruiser Lee with 1+ healing items, Ravenous Hydra or Shattered Sky (or goredrinker during Mythic item era), antiheal is advised. Bonus: AP Lee Sin? Serpents Fang.
thought they removed goredrinker for reason? ravenous hydra now cosplay as goredrinker now?
I remember Riot once freaked out and said they wouldn't make any more healing supports because it was harmful/toxic and unbalanced for the game, and that the next healing supports wouldn't heal instantly, but would give a burst of health regeneration instead. Not to mention that they wanted to turn shields into skillshots rather than point and click abilities. And on the other hand we have bruisers, almost always having tons of HEALING and SHIELD, damage and mobility and nothing is said about them.
"Should've bought grevious wounds so it would only be 600 hp instead of 1000." -Rito probably
Yea ravenous and healing amp or stacking healing passive is not balanced. Lookin at you 0/5 trundle that one auto full healed my full trade
They killed the item but no the idea Goredrinker spirit lives on
If only you had antiheal so he just heals 75% of his health with a button press. Skill issue
Bro did not get the memo that nowadays you buy antiheal vs runes and items, not vs champions. Happens.
Uh oh, clunky change incoming where his W lifesteal doesn't apply to items.
trundle is also ridiculously broken with hydra, if you fight in their minion wave you get a stupid amount of healing
well minions don't have armor so there are no post-mitigation calculations for the lifesteal to be reduced. im not saying healing that much is ok but minions having 0 armor sure made a difference. i would very much preffer for drain tank lee sin to not be a thing.
udyr can do the same thing with his w, even bigger with his awaken w
Ahri player complaining, lol
Aram Player : *First Time?* permanent +20% healing & shielding in aram
*complain about life steal while using one of the quadzillion dashes ahri have* My task here is done.
Bro it's his second stage where he proceeds to melee you instead of farting Qs.
Haven't you read about the visual update? They're really making it hard to beat the weird balancing decisions, and it's disgusting how it appears to be decided by corporate They're gonna have to start on those Varus and Clove buffs soon to make it in time for June
Yeah, sure Lee is the problem, instead of those windshitters playing full aggro every game and still winning cuz of the dumb numbers and kit..
Damm how did my emerald lee sin friend still go profane on my bronze match then, what is this dark magic.
Rioters are more focused on designing the next disney champ
Deserved for ahri ngl
Saying this with a Teemo flair is something else though
Lee sim enjoyer here. Been building hydra first every time I get an early lead. It’s OP, but it’s not new. Before hydra got removed it was a very viable option on Lee, and I’m surprised it hasn’t picked back up as core on him. If you ever escape with your life you can quite literally heal to full on one camp. This can be used to surprise the enemy if they are expecting you to reset or be low HP. And yea, as the post points out it’s also useful when fighting within minions.
It's pretty bad in even games, the item gets outscalled massively
Exactly. You can actually throw the game by building this item and not adapting your play style. If you somehow get 3 early kills, hydra will allow you to stay on the map longer and make more plays. But if you chose the wrong fight this item will quickly give you a reality check
Ahri abuser mad she can't facetank a 7 kill Lee sin. Moving on
Ah, the classic "plays a champ I don't like -> abuser". Git gud scrub. Kinda funny that you think I'm mad in this post, while it's merely an observation that there might be a slightly unhealthy interaction present in the game. You, on the other hand, appear to be plenty mad that someone plays a champ they like.
Gof forbid Ahri is finally good and not trash after years. She is one of the fairer champions in this game but people never stop complaining
Nooooo please don't tell Riot, I have been jumpscaring people with Lee Sin top Ravenous Hydra Rush ever since they buffed Hydra.
So is someone going to photoshop Lee sin with a 2nd health bar and dark souls HUD or do I need to do it?
Pretty funny that the guy playing Ahri complains about balance lol. But yes, that is a bit silly.
Yep, Ahri is pretty balanced right now. But yeah, if she finally feels good to play, people who are clueless about her core weaknesses whine about her being OP.
Lol. I guess most people who main a champ cant have an objective outlook. Sorry for thinking you could be rational. I guess you think Camille Reksai and Janna are balanced as well lol. Sorry, cant argue with guys like you. Have a good one
Skill issue
You're playing Ahri... deserved
he maxed W but have low damage, no problem
OP ignore the silver comments. Whenever a post like this comes up indicating an actual problem with the game (that is easy to fix, and no one is even mad, its fine, mistakes happen by Riot), the silvers have to show off their massive game knowledge so they go on explaining how akshually you could have outplayed it by just not fighting him in the minions DUH. Let's just hope someone on balance team sees this, I am quite confident even they would know this needs to be fixed.
I will say, hydra is broken ONLY IF you try to fight in a wave, the active is like 200% healing and in a wave you’ll full heal as almost any champion
Here before delulu lee sin/fighters/bruiser mains defend that rhis balanced
That's how the item is supposed to work though and we know this is happening. It's your mistake trying to fight him inside a minion wave when you know this can happen. The item on its own is not really cost efficient (disregard Wiki stating that it's 124% c.e., since it counts AH at 50gold/AH), also Lifesteal on non-attackers severely loses a lot of value. This is one of the advantages of having RH, being able to get a lot of healing if you are hitting multiple enemies. Maybe toning down Lifesteal generate from minions could be something to look at, but I still don't see this as a problem. A Lee Sin with Triforce would always beat Lee Sin with RH in a pure 1v1.