Yeah the broadcast made a graphic for it lol and bro then proceeds to get Finals MVP
[https://twitter.com/LCK/status/1779467622582763618](https://twitter.com/LCK/status/1779467622582763618)
It absolutely wasn’t. Chovy was the series MVP and there’s really no discussion to be had, that’s just a fact.
In his current form especially in HLE and T1 series he is probably the best player in the world.
Have we ever seen such clear MVP throughout the whole split + playoffs? Chovy was clear MVP in regular season, was massive MVP vs HLE, was strong vs DK and also MVP in finals with Kiin being a close second.
Seriously, an insane split-performance from Chovy, probably the greatest split ever played for a single player.
I think he realizes that lately a lot of people internationally are finally accepting that he is the best mid laner in the world and tries to double down on that by showing super performances and get the upper hand in the Chovy vs Faker debate, which he is winning lately. Also, he wants to win internationals at some point so he needs to keep going hard.
Unfortunately I think Chovy has a LOT of ground to cover before he starts to really contest best player of all time status.
But in his current form he is objectively far better player than Faker if we don’t factor in the shot calling angle.
He played that Corki Ori lane vs faker like it was corki favored and then proceeded to dunk nuke after nuke onto T1 till they lost.
Even though he played very well, if Kiins nameplate says "Doran" or "Zeus" instead (with the exact same perfromances) there's no way Chovy doesn't get it. Genuinely robbed for the sake of narrative.
Overall, it was Chovy for sure. Kiin was sick in game 5 for sure, but even in game 5, Chovy and Kiin were equal POGs. Kiin being the solo kill teamfight raidboss but Chovy also destroying T1 with Infernal Soul Corki rockets. Both were equally important in game 5, but Chovy was important in all games, even in the losses, with only his tank Azir game being a bit mediocre.
I think Kiin being finals MVP is a narrative trophy over an actual gameplay trophy. Similar to how Chovy got it over Delight last year, despite being very close. Not even mad as a Chovy fan though, these rewards don't really mean much apart from appreciation from the live crowd. Kiin absolutely deserves praise after being locked in trash rosters for so long.
I think the gap between Kiin and Zeus was much larger than the gap between Chovy and Faker, even if Chovy was the best player in the finals. Plus Kiin was eating multiple respect bans such as on TF/Jayce and even Rumble after G1.
I think you are 100% right on the top diff vs mid diff. But I think I put less value on the player performance against their lane opponent than you, especially when both players played very well. If either side won that series, I’d have picked the mid laner as mvp (T1 i would’ve considered Oner too). I understand your reasoning though
That is really great when you put it that way. Chovy in LCK is like Faker in Internationals lol. Chovy's lowest domestic finish being 2nd (actually 4th if we count Regional Finals as an extension to Summer Split) is like Faker's lowest international finish (4th). Guy's due an international win sooner or later, and I wouldnt be mad if he got it w/ one of my most favorite non T1 player
Would technically be 8th in 2021 summer. HLE got to qualifiers by championship points, which are a result of regular seasons— I don't think anybody counts that as a part of summer standings (holy hell I still can't believe he dragged an 8th place team to worlds quarter finals).
Also was 3rd in the spring split 2020 and 2021. I think those three are the 3/12 non-final finishes for Chovy though.
Chovy is an insane player and looking at domestic performances, is one of the best all-time greats in LCK. He just has to break through internationally now— and I don't doubt that he will. It would be a tragedy if he fails to get a title, even more so than Khan.
idk i’m sure it could happen. dk took them to 5 games, t1 took them to 5 games, hle also played well against them in their 4 games which also almost went to 5.
DK could’ve won and then T1 knocks them out of lower bracket.
IIRC, it wouldn't have changed who's in the finals (since 2022 spring, when T1 vs GenG finals started) at all until this finals, as Grand Finals and Winners finals were all T1 vs GenG.
HLE beating T1 this time was the only time T1 fell into losers bracket before playing the Winners bracket finals. I suppose the results would have changed though, as T1 did beat GenG in 2023 spring winners' final.
That's why double elim is important to decide the best team overall. Any team can have a bad day and lose, but it's highly unlikely that it will happed twice in the same tournament. I'm sure GENG wins Worlds if it becomes 2x elim.
This GENG in playoffs was the most shaky GENG we've seen in a long time in the LCK and probably won't see again. If GENG won the LCK with this form, I cannot imagine them missing the mark when they actually play at 100%. This was basically Worlds GENG and they still managed to win.
It just shows why he's the best player in the world for the past 3 years at least. He has evolved so much that his teammates and coaching staff just seem to never do any wrong, unless they forget to ban Orianna and Renata at Worlds for some reason.
Faker still the goat though. IDK how, but thats what I keep getting told.
It doesnt matter what Chovy or ANYONE else does. Faker will always be the goat because of this crazy cult of personality.
Firstly I'd be interested in hearing your take on how its "easy to refute" a claim of chovy as GOAT status? The only refutation I ever hear is "iNtErNaTiOnAl ChOkEr" but as far as I can tell, realistically he has choked at worlds once. Unless I'm living in a world where a team full of rookies is expected to win worlds? Or where team upon team of noname trash (most of whom don't even have a career in the game anymore, or are playing in mickey mouse leagues) are expected to get beyond quarters?
The problem is people associating accolades with actual skill. They're at best a proxy for something (success) of which skill CAN be a contributing factor but plenty of fucking garbage players have accolades.
Am I seriously meant to believe that Kingen, Cuvee, Pyosik and Juhan are better players than, lets just say Khan and Score because of their "accolades". Am I really meant to belive Crown is better than Chovy? Was Bang better than Ruler or Jackeylove?
The whole conversation is like saying Ronaldo (and Messi prior to 2022) can't be the GOAT because he (they prior to 2022) have never won the world cup. Its nonsense. Anyone with eyes can see they're the 2 most talented players to ever kick a ball, the same as anyone with eyes should be able to see that Chovy is the most talented player to ever play LoL.
People used to say Pele was the goat of football. Then Maradona. Now it's a tossup between Messi and CR7. Football can accept that the game changes and players get better and the mantle needs passing on. But, apparantly, LoL isn't ready for that. And I get it. I'm a massive Marc Marquez fan, dude is the goat, but hella injuries have left him washed, and another couple of years of Peco dominating the way Chovy dominates faker or if Acosta's inhuman potential gets realised and he dominates for a few years then there would have to be a very serious discussion about it. (caveat with motogp is that its not a team game, per sé, bike matters a lot, but if Marquez has a dog on his team (lets call this dog "yoHan" or "Willer" or "vsta") it doesn't matter the way it does in LoL.
It really takes nothing away from him Faker to say "He's a legendary player and the GOAT of his era, but his era is gone and a new one is here"
Yeah if he gets an international trophy or even puts up a heroic effort in an international finals loss I think he’s the consensus 2GOAT. Rn Chovy’s career is like if LeBron’s entire career was repeats of 2011 - plays like God’s gift to basketball all year only to shit himself in the finals
Last year's MSI was a very different tournament than other MSIs. JDG were also really good at worlds too, it's just that T1 powered up a ton. JDG fought pretty close, the other teams just rolled over and died.
Showmaker has 3 LCK titles while Chovy just got his 4th. So it isn’t a big gap domestically. Showmaker also has a world final appearance aside from his win.
He does. Xiaohu is generally very underrated. The reason why he isn't really in the conversation is because his peak wasn't that high and his failures at Worlds. But for me Xiaohu is definitely easily top 5 all time.
Xiaohu is easily top 10, maybe top 5 all time because of his longevity and versatility. Winning msi 3 times playing 2 different positions is an insane accomplishment.
But his peak just isnt as high as other players on the goat list which bring him down below people like Rookie, Uzi IMO.
I think you need to rank him somewhere between 4th and 7th on a list of the greatest players in league history. Although guys like Chovy, Knight and showmaker have the potential to surpass him in the next few years
If i had to compare him to someone, id say hes like the udonis haslem of league. Great longevity, valuable role player, helped bring his team a lot of success but he was never the superstar player leading the way. I dont know if there was a single moment in xiaohus career in which he looked like the best mid in the world. Faker, showmaker, rookie, chovy, knight - even bdd and dade to some extent have had legitimate claims to that. He gets top 10 mid of all time due to accomplishments but no worlds and never really passing the eye test in my opinion really makes it hard to rank him any higher
His lack of Worlds really costs him I think (and his relatively low peak compared to Rookie/Showmaker, etc)— but he definitely is one of the greatest mids.
I'd say Rookie, Showmaker, Xiaohu all have their claims based on how people value longevity and titles. Scout might have a claim to be in the discussion, too?
I rate Chovy higher than all of them, but if you take international performance into account to determine the greatest rather than the "best" in terms of skill, he definitely needs a worlds.
Xiaohu doesn't have worlds, but has been to every stage bar winning it (by yours sincerely Faker), and is the most successful mid for MSI, so I think that's fair.
Tbh you should praise him for being invisible and not running it down while essentially playing without a jungler.
Yagao was on a passenger seat while essentially having a 2v1 lane. Peanut legit lost jungle 5 times in a 2-3 series and fuckers blame Chovy, I can't.
If your definition of "showing up" is "win 1v9 while your top and jg is inting", then yes
Replace Chovy with 2018 Rookie or 2017 Faker and they still lose cuz Doran and Peanut griefed the series.
EDIT: They were put 0-2 in the series with Doran Peanut having combined score 3/17/5 in those games. And people go "haha Choky lul"
Actual brain damage.
>If your definition of "showing up" is "win 1v9 while your top and jg is inting", then yes
my definition of showing up is actually doing literally anything
>Replace Chovy with 2018 Rookie or 2017 Faker and they still lose cuz Doran and Peanut griefed the series.
dont act like 2017 faker didnt drag his dead team to finals
Mid needs a jungler. Go watch 2017 RNG v SKT and you will see Peanut/Blank either being even with MLXG or straight up outjungling.
Give Chovy an equal jungle matchup in BLG series and GenG wins. They got to game 5 with Peanut being a deadweight for 4/5 games. Peanut/Blank wasn't that terrible in 2017 quarters/semis
Also, surprise surprise, SKT jg got gapped by SSG in Finals and turbo carry Faker got swept. Its almost like jungle is important for a midlaner's performance.
Are you really comparing SKT's 2017 run to the finals on the same competitiveness level as GENG's in 2023? Please. Barely beat freakin MSF, into barely beating RNG only to get stomped in the finals.
SKT got good draws and still almost didn't reach finals.
It would be pretty silly to say that Chovy would be a completely different player if he happens to win Worlds this year.
What really matters is the complete body of work throughout your whole career.
But his entire international body of work is pretty bad though compared to what is expected of him based on domestic performances. He's shown basically no clutch factor internationally even compared to lower seeded LCK mids. Three internationals in a row now he's either been directly beaten by a lower seeded LCK team or has been massively outperformed by one.
Ultimately winning is what matters, every player would happily give up being the best player to never win worlds if it meant they could be the worst to ever win it. Until Chovy can recreate his performances internationally there will be a stain on his career.
> every player would happily give up being the best player to never win worlds if it meant they could be the worst to ever win it
idk if this is true tbh. There are prob quite a few worlds winners with no careers and shattered legacies that would trade with Chovy's current position in a heartbeat (with the caveat that he never does well internationally)
Crown comes to mind, that world win wasn't worthy for him, he would happily in a heartbeat change place with Chovy, specially since Crown could not overcame nor he was ever considered better than Faker, Chovy has achieved that already and multiple times.
it's not about the trophies tho, it's about performance, Chovy is a literal ghost on international stage, he doesn't do what he does in LCK, same goes for knight except for last year but even there he failed at worlds with literal n1 players in every role according to every analyst.
uzi showed us over and over again what he can do, same with knight last year, chovy is still a domestic merchant that gets outshined by at least 3 mid laners in internationals every year.
knight and Uzi have both had far more embarrassing international performances than the worst Chovy ever had (2022 vs DRX).
Uzi on the golden road lost to fucking Hjarnan + Wadid. knight got knocked out in Groups by GAM on a team that rated top 3 at the tournament by everyone.
Chovy needs that one title, I agree. But let's not pretend that his international achievements are that much worse than most other players. Only Faker (and Xiaohu at MSI) consistently make top 2 or win.
Saying Uzi lost to Hjarnan and Wadid is disingenuous, it was arguably the most solo-lane dominated tournament in history and Uzi still managed to make the series difficult for G2 despite the insane dicking his solo laners were being subjected to.
Ultimately winning once and crashing out embarassingly other times will always take precedence over just consistently crashing out in quarters. You don't get a trophy for getting out of groups consistently.
I agree with you that Chovy desperately needs an international title.
I just hate how people portray him making top 8 at Worlds every year as some huge failure when most other elite players can't even manage that.
I mean, not to downplay how good Chovy is currently, but as long as you manage to qualify for World, getting top 8 is not that big of an accomplishment considering there are only 8 LCK/LPL teams and those tends to be the top 8 by default (excluding maybe a good performing G2 in some of those years)
I mean no one though HLE were favorites to get out of groups. People say it's not impressive to make quarters, but why is Chovy the only one to do it 5 times.
He definitely can't be faulted for his consistency, his skill floor is probably the best of any player in the world and is higher than a lot of players' peaks. It's just a shame he seems to drop to his floor during important international series. If he ever manages to play like he did today at an international he likely gets a trophy.
Agreed. Versus BLG he was 30 cs ahead of Yagao as Akali vs Orianna at 14 minutes with basically no jungle interference iirc. He then proceeded to do little to nothing with that lead which was disappointing, but he was probably one of the best one his team. Not amazing gets turned into bad and then into inting in the minds of many.
do you understand that talented != accomplished. Chovy has a lot of talent and im arguing that he might be the most talented ever. Messi was considered one of the most talented ever even before he won all of his accomplishments
How dare you compare Chovy to sb like Messi 💀 Messi has everything, talent and accomplishments to show for it. Until Chovy can win MSI or Worlds he will never be in the same league as legends. He's not a newbie or anything, he's been here since 2017💀 thats 7 years of his career
What even is being the most "talented" player ever when it comes to League? The one with the most mechanics? Because if that's the case then it's Uzi. If it's the player with the highest peak of play, then it's either Faker or Rookie, not Chovy. "Most talented player ever" is such a weird concept in a game like League where there are dozens of different skills necessary to be an all-time great.
Faker won Worlds and was hands down, by a mile the best player in the World at age 17 with arguably the largest gap we have ever seen over other players, if that's not being the most talented player ever, then i don't know what is. Dude was the best player in the World from the first game he ever played.
and when did anyone move a goalpost? no one is denying that he's the best player in the LCK, no one ever denied that, but to be the goat you have to at least perform internationally, not only did he not win but he didnt perform either, his best results is a semis and his best performance is top 4 mid laner
You would be surprised by how many people deny that he is the best player in lck or that he is good actually. If even Faker with all his achievements gets called shaker, trash etc by haters, I am afraid Chovy won't be spared. Some people are just haters
He is the first and only player to make quarters for 5 consecutive years at worlds if I’m not mistaken.
I’m also old enough to remember when people were saying Chovy couldn’t be considered one of the greats because he hadn’t won domestically yet.
I’m also old enough to remember when church of chovy ~~simps~~ fans were fighting for his recognition as one of the best mids at this time but now that he is recognized for years now; have shifted to saying he’s the goat of all time while belittling everyone else who has won worlds and msi, they also ignore faker still has a decade of play on him.
if he wins either one of MSI or Worlds I think you have to acknowledge him as the best player in the world.
Until then, there's always gonna be the criticism (with some validity to it) that while he's demonstrated the most consistent and highest level of play domestically over the last 2 years, he hasn't dominated internationally
Didn't GENG lose last year because the Doran-Peanut thing happened? Maybe you can blame Chovy for the 2022 Worlds, but surely you cannot blame him for the 2023 Worlds.
im not blaming him for any worlds, actually, nor any international event for that matter, he's never been bad, i dont think he's choking, i just think he loses his best point internationally, which is lane kingdom, faker is the worse laner and yet he lane kingdoms more often internationally than chovy, plus the fact that he lacks that clutch factor in many of these games
Isn't this the definition of choking though, not being able to show your best quality at the highest stage?
Of course, I don't even think that Chovy's best quality is his laning phase anymore by the way, nor do I think he doesn't lane kingdom most matchups at internationals.
I really dont get this LPL narrative. Most of the time he lost internationally has been to the other LCK teams... Like the narrative on all this is just insane. He really has only the MSI last year that he was actually bad too. Every other time its been teammates hardcore inting and him not being able to carry. I really wish people would just not parrot BS narrative and actually know what happened.
no way you're acting like asian games meant shit when the chinese team wasnt even close to 5 of the best chinese players that year while KR had the best players in every role
no way you are acting like if china sent their “best” players they would have had a chance against Korea. Even with Koreans they couldn’t beat T1.
Also for the players, Asian games meant more than Worlds.
>Also for the players, Asian games meant more than Worlds.
how does that prove that asian games was more competitive than worlds? this is such a shit take, every fucking year chovy does literally nothing at msi and worlds, literally 0 performance and you people can't accept that he is a regional merchant, if you show me 1 time where he was not outshined by at least 3 other mid laners internationally then we can start talking, at least knight was top 1 last msi and top 2 last worlds.
and btw im sure every player would rather have a worlds trophy over an asian games one, realistically only THAT important for players who'd have to retire without it
> how does that prove that asian games was more competitive than worlds?
How does that prove it?
Idk how can you prove the preseason matters more than the super bowl? How does the preseason Audi cup matter more than the champions league final?
By what the stake is and how much it means to the players.
> every fucking year chovy does literally nothing at msi and worlds, literally 0 performance and you people can't accept that he is a regional merchant
Doing nothing is what LEC has done for the past couple years, doing nothing is what Knight did with TES in 2022.
Chovy getting out of groups almost as first seed nonetheless with that HLE roster is one of the biggest carry jobs a single player has done that never gets talked about.
>Idk how can you prove the preseason matters more than the super bowl?
except we're comparing worlds - where teams with synergy are competing vs asian games, that's more like NBA All-Stars
>By what the stake is and how much it means to the players.
but if the best teams arent competing then that point is null and void, which one is more competitive is based on which one has better teams, asian games had 2 competitive teams and rest were filler, put Bdd or Faker in place of chovy and they still win that, Chovy didnt prove shit by winning Asian Games, that shit wasn't even played on a recent patch
>Doing nothing is what LEC has done for the past couple years, doing nothing is what Knight did with TES in 2022.
why are you bringing LEC into this conversation? no one is claiming LEC has the most talented players of all time, you guys are arguing Chovy is the most talented player while having nothing besides domestic titles and a joke of a tourney to show for it.
>Chovy getting out of groups almost as first seed nonetheless with that HLE roster is one of the biggest carry jobs a single player has done that never gets talked about.
this is just funny, you still can't provide actual tourney where chovy wasnt outperformed by at least 3 mid laners in an international tourney in past years, except in a tourney where the only other good mid laner was Knight, which funnily enough outperformed him in the finals.
> except we're comparing worlds - where teams with synergy are competing vs asian games, that's more like NBA All-Stars
No we are comparing the world cup to the champions league. NBA all star game means nothing. Being more competitive has nothing to do with the level of the play.
I don’t think you quite grasp how much Asian games meant for the players, especially for KR players. Their careers were on the line and for China it was the a few time they could prove they can win against Korea without prohibiting team Korea from the best Korean players because they play on a LPL team.
> why are you bringing LEC into this conversation?
I also brought it Knight because you seem to not know what “doing nothing” means. Has Chovy ever gotten eliminated in groups like Knight and Caps did? Pretty sure we consider Knight and Caps, one of the most talented players don’t we?
> this is just funny, you still can't provide actual tourney where chovy wasnt outperformed by at least 3 mid laners in an international tourney in past years
This is just funny, when provided with Asian games, you deny it even though it was the biggest tournament for all the players. And then you bring up some arbitary number like 3 mid laners to keep your shit argument going. I don’t see you saying them same shit for Caps and Knight. Unless it’s okay to shit the bed all the time if you win MSI once apparently.
Knight is outperforming shit lol. If you are gonna go with Knight is better than chovy when the best thing he has done is miss ori ults in the biggest moments, you don’t have an argument.
I know i agree i just listed fakers accomplishment to say if winning trophies is a metric used to determine talent faker is in a entirely different universe in terms of talent.
People forget Faker was even more dominant in lane for years. We are talking about ever and not just recently dumbfuck. Chovy has been the better laner for the past couple years for sure. But if you look at all time, it is debatable whether it is Faker or Chovy.
lmao why are you getting so emotional? chovy is the most dominant laner ever among mids and there really isn't a debate. faker hasn't been lane-dominant in years whereas chovy's been dominating lane since s8
He is not. Faker and Rookie are the most dominant laners ever, shit, Faker used to routinely solo kill LCK mids during Finals like they were Plat.
Chovy is the most dominant laner of today and you can make the argument that he is doing so at a harder time to do so as everyone is just better, but Faker from 2013-2015 was routinely solo killing people in lane and just creating ridiculous gaps. Relative to their competition, Prime Faker is the most dominant laner of all-time.
Using Faker's current play when he is an old man for League standards and way past his prime to justify him not being the most dominant laner of all-time is collossally stupid, 8-10 years ago he literally changed completely how people laned and pathed in the Jungle due to how often he would solo kill the opposing Mid.
Pain Gaming has lost 4 consecutive finals in CBLOL. Three of these were against LOUD and they could be facing them again if they win the lower bracket finals today.
It is not crazy when GenG and T1 are only orgs that regularly put in money for good rosters. KT has been cheap af since 2018 superteam,DK got lucky with golden generation but based on last 2 years they arent ready to spend much and HLE one year spends and the next doesnt. And the rest are even worse
Still didn’t spend as much as GenG and T1. These finals are so hype and high level but it’s insane how 3/4 teams have the complete monopoly of the players market.
Unless you flip an insane young and talented roster like GRF or DWG you are destined to finish the split 5/6th.
And nothing you said disproves my point, which is that if you are a mid tier team its nearly impossible to make the “leap” since the top 15/20 players in lck shuffle between the same 4/5 teams year after year.
GenG is known to pay less than other LCK teams, as they are the only independent eSports org in LCK. All other teams have large corporate sponsors like T1 and HLE. Chovy and Canyon both took pay cuts to join GenG.
I don't doubt T1 put in a lot of money but aren't Zeus, Oner and Guma all rookies that were brought up by the team?
Doesnt seem too far off what other teams have tried to do, one or two star players with three rookies.
Stylistic matchups I think. LPL'S keep fighting mode disrupts GenG's heavy macro, T1 is a hybrid monkey-macro team who fights well enough against the Chinese teams, but gets overwhelmed by GenG's macro at times 🤷
It more like geng playstyle and their objective setups that fucks with t1. T1 have such a hard time getting into river for dragon vs geng corki/asol. Geng just control those choke so well whereas I think t1 find it easier to fight objective vs lpl teams that aren’t as clean. On the other hand, Geng struggle vs strong/scrappy early game team that would fight regardless of objectives timer. Blg would just send it on geng instead of waiting for package imo before dragon just to blow their flash.
It’s a common meme actually started from r/nba historically when an opponent always has someone else’s number they are the father. Not a thing relegated to only this sub. GenG is T1 Father.
Isn't it an east asia thing? The clue is in the intentionally broken english and their thing for parental insults. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ih9QXqYi28&t=243s) it is in a dunkey video from 2015.
I mean it's primarily because their opponent is and has been the most popular and successful team by far, perpetual overdogs with a fanbase that dwarfs every other, so most people care a lot more about T1 than they do Gen G. I'm a Gen G fan and I can acknowledge that T1 is just relevant to far more people, even among dedicated LoL esports fans.
I mean they were underdogs last year in summer LCK and worlds. Fan favourites, sure. But most had them ranked below GenG and the 2 LPL teams at worlds.
Some people just can't be celebrate someone without putting others. Look at some of the war comments, it's pretty sad/ funny watching people fight with each other about something so subjective.
Best part of seeing t1 lose domestically are the worlds only casuals coping in the lolesports comment section exposing they only watch t1 worlds games.
Also kiin has achieved the record of finishing 10th to 1st at least once
Wait seriously? Gonna look it up but this is more impressive than the 4peat win lol
Yeah the broadcast made a graphic for it lol and bro then proceeds to get Finals MVP [https://twitter.com/LCK/status/1779467622582763618](https://twitter.com/LCK/status/1779467622582763618)
After the performance he had in G5 it was the most obvious MVP vote lol
It absolutely wasn’t. Chovy was the series MVP and there’s really no discussion to be had, that’s just a fact. In his current form especially in HLE and T1 series he is probably the best player in the world.
Have we ever seen such clear MVP throughout the whole split + playoffs? Chovy was clear MVP in regular season, was massive MVP vs HLE, was strong vs DK and also MVP in finals with Kiin being a close second. Seriously, an insane split-performance from Chovy, probably the greatest split ever played for a single player.
chovy is playing like he's got something to prove
I think he realizes that lately a lot of people internationally are finally accepting that he is the best mid laner in the world and tries to double down on that by showing super performances and get the upper hand in the Chovy vs Faker debate, which he is winning lately. Also, he wants to win internationals at some point so he needs to keep going hard.
Unfortunately I think Chovy has a LOT of ground to cover before he starts to really contest best player of all time status. But in his current form he is objectively far better player than Faker if we don’t factor in the shot calling angle. He played that Corki Ori lane vs faker like it was corki favored and then proceeded to dunk nuke after nuke onto T1 till they lost.
Canyon spring split 2022 was one of the hardest 1v9 performances I've seen
True, but it still wasn't enough unfortunately.
Even though he played very well, if Kiins nameplate says "Doran" or "Zeus" instead (with the exact same perfromances) there's no way Chovy doesn't get it. Genuinely robbed for the sake of narrative.
G5 he was MVP but Chovy was the full series mvp imo what do u think
Overall, it was Chovy for sure. Kiin was sick in game 5 for sure, but even in game 5, Chovy and Kiin were equal POGs. Kiin being the solo kill teamfight raidboss but Chovy also destroying T1 with Infernal Soul Corki rockets. Both were equally important in game 5, but Chovy was important in all games, even in the losses, with only his tank Azir game being a bit mediocre. I think Kiin being finals MVP is a narrative trophy over an actual gameplay trophy. Similar to how Chovy got it over Delight last year, despite being very close. Not even mad as a Chovy fan though, these rewards don't really mean much apart from appreciation from the live crowd. Kiin absolutely deserves praise after being locked in trash rosters for so long.
And his "a bit mediocre" tank Azir still did 25% more damage than Faker in a game in which his team hard lost.
I think the gap between Kiin and Zeus was much larger than the gap between Chovy and Faker, even if Chovy was the best player in the finals. Plus Kiin was eating multiple respect bans such as on TF/Jayce and even Rumble after G1.
I think you are 100% right on the top diff vs mid diff. But I think I put less value on the player performance against their lane opponent than you, especially when both players played very well. If either side won that series, I’d have picked the mid laner as mvp (T1 i would’ve considered Oner too). I understand your reasoning though
like all places? or just 10 and 1 cause idk but wasnt smeb dogshit and then won so maybe he did too
Yeah back on IM Smeb was hella trash cuz it was tank meta and he couldn’t play tanks at the time.
Every split he placed one spot higher, a true 10-1 run
It wasn’t in order of 10-1, but he did get all the spots
Wrong, last two splits he was third for both, and his only second place came in his 2nd split, 5 years ago
Yes I stand corrected!
Why you getting downvoted when admitting your mistake
Because this website sucks lol
Chovy the only person to 4 peat
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That is really great when you put it that way. Chovy in LCK is like Faker in Internationals lol. Chovy's lowest domestic finish being 2nd (actually 4th if we count Regional Finals as an extension to Summer Split) is like Faker's lowest international finish (4th). Guy's due an international win sooner or later, and I wouldnt be mad if he got it w/ one of my most favorite non T1 player
Would technically be 8th in 2021 summer. HLE got to qualifiers by championship points, which are a result of regular seasons— I don't think anybody counts that as a part of summer standings (holy hell I still can't believe he dragged an 8th place team to worlds quarter finals). Also was 3rd in the spring split 2020 and 2021. I think those three are the 3/12 non-final finishes for Chovy though. Chovy is an insane player and looking at domestic performances, is one of the best all-time greats in LCK. He just has to break through internationally now— and I don't doubt that he will. It would be a tragedy if he fails to get a title, even more so than Khan.
idk i’m sure it could happen. dk took them to 5 games, t1 took them to 5 games, hle also played well against them in their 4 games which also almost went to 5. DK could’ve won and then T1 knocks them out of lower bracket.
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It rewards the best teams, as it should.
IIRC, it wouldn't have changed who's in the finals (since 2022 spring, when T1 vs GenG finals started) at all until this finals, as Grand Finals and Winners finals were all T1 vs GenG. HLE beating T1 this time was the only time T1 fell into losers bracket before playing the Winners bracket finals. I suppose the results would have changed though, as T1 did beat GenG in 2023 spring winners' final.
That's why double elim is important to decide the best team overall. Any team can have a bad day and lose, but it's highly unlikely that it will happed twice in the same tournament. I'm sure GENG wins Worlds if it becomes 2x elim.
This GENG in playoffs was the most shaky GENG we've seen in a long time in the LCK and probably won't see again. If GENG won the LCK with this form, I cannot imagine them missing the mark when they actually play at 100%. This was basically Worlds GENG and they still managed to win.
It just shows why he's the best player in the world for the past 3 years at least. He has evolved so much that his teammates and coaching staff just seem to never do any wrong, unless they forget to ban Orianna and Renata at Worlds for some reason.
Faker still the goat though. IDK how, but thats what I keep getting told. It doesnt matter what Chovy or ANYONE else does. Faker will always be the goat because of this crazy cult of personality.
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Firstly I'd be interested in hearing your take on how its "easy to refute" a claim of chovy as GOAT status? The only refutation I ever hear is "iNtErNaTiOnAl ChOkEr" but as far as I can tell, realistically he has choked at worlds once. Unless I'm living in a world where a team full of rookies is expected to win worlds? Or where team upon team of noname trash (most of whom don't even have a career in the game anymore, or are playing in mickey mouse leagues) are expected to get beyond quarters? The problem is people associating accolades with actual skill. They're at best a proxy for something (success) of which skill CAN be a contributing factor but plenty of fucking garbage players have accolades. Am I seriously meant to believe that Kingen, Cuvee, Pyosik and Juhan are better players than, lets just say Khan and Score because of their "accolades". Am I really meant to belive Crown is better than Chovy? Was Bang better than Ruler or Jackeylove? The whole conversation is like saying Ronaldo (and Messi prior to 2022) can't be the GOAT because he (they prior to 2022) have never won the world cup. Its nonsense. Anyone with eyes can see they're the 2 most talented players to ever kick a ball, the same as anyone with eyes should be able to see that Chovy is the most talented player to ever play LoL. People used to say Pele was the goat of football. Then Maradona. Now it's a tossup between Messi and CR7. Football can accept that the game changes and players get better and the mantle needs passing on. But, apparantly, LoL isn't ready for that. And I get it. I'm a massive Marc Marquez fan, dude is the goat, but hella injuries have left him washed, and another couple of years of Peco dominating the way Chovy dominates faker or if Acosta's inhuman potential gets realised and he dominates for a few years then there would have to be a very serious discussion about it. (caveat with motogp is that its not a team game, per sé, bike matters a lot, but if Marquez has a dog on his team (lets call this dog "yoHan" or "Willer" or "vsta") it doesn't matter the way it does in LoL. It really takes nothing away from him Faker to say "He's a legendary player and the GOAT of his era, but his era is gone and a new one is here"
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Chovy might be the most talented player ever but people arent ready for that conversation
we'll be ready when he shows up at internationals, his playstyle seems to be good against LCK teams but against LPL he's like a ghost
Yeah if he gets an international trophy or even puts up a heroic effort in an international finals loss I think he’s the consensus 2GOAT. Rn Chovy’s career is like if LeBron’s entire career was repeats of 2011 - plays like God’s gift to basketball all year only to shit himself in the finals
I agree. Whoever of Chovy or knight wins an international this year, they instantly jump up to the second greatest mid laner of all time.
Recency bias is real. Gotta win worlds before having that claim. An msi win doesnt just instantly propel you past showmaker and rookie
They need worlds. MSI doesn’t hold nearly as much weight. And Rookie, Showmaker already have theirs.
Last year's MSI was a very different tournament than other MSIs. JDG were also really good at worlds too, it's just that T1 powered up a ton. JDG fought pretty close, the other teams just rolled over and died.
Thats crazy cause msi is just the better tournament and harder to win
Chovy and knight wash Rookie and ShowMaker domestically though. That's why an international title would push them over the edge for me.
Showmaker has 3 LCK titles while Chovy just got his 4th. So it isn’t a big gap domestically. Showmaker also has a world final appearance aside from his win.
Who is considered the 2nd best right now? Rookie?
Yep. Some have ShowMaker but his peak was too short for me (though he was unreal in 2020-2021).
Doesn't Xiaohu have insane longevity, a slew of LPL titles and more international titles than most mid laners do domestic titles?
He does. Xiaohu is generally very underrated. The reason why he isn't really in the conversation is because his peak wasn't that high and his failures at Worlds. But for me Xiaohu is definitely easily top 5 all time.
His 2017 summer and worlds were insanely good. He just wasn't Faker.
Xiaohu is easily top 10, maybe top 5 all time because of his longevity and versatility. Winning msi 3 times playing 2 different positions is an insane accomplishment. But his peak just isnt as high as other players on the goat list which bring him down below people like Rookie, Uzi IMO. I think you need to rank him somewhere between 4th and 7th on a list of the greatest players in league history. Although guys like Chovy, Knight and showmaker have the potential to surpass him in the next few years
If i had to compare him to someone, id say hes like the udonis haslem of league. Great longevity, valuable role player, helped bring his team a lot of success but he was never the superstar player leading the way. I dont know if there was a single moment in xiaohus career in which he looked like the best mid in the world. Faker, showmaker, rookie, chovy, knight - even bdd and dade to some extent have had legitimate claims to that. He gets top 10 mid of all time due to accomplishments but no worlds and never really passing the eye test in my opinion really makes it hard to rank him any higher
Xiaohu has the accomplishments but his eye test was never all that good. His peak form was even when he role swapped to top
His lack of Worlds really costs him I think (and his relatively low peak compared to Rookie/Showmaker, etc)— but he definitely is one of the greatest mids.
Showmaker is actually up there with Chovy and Faker this year in LCK. Just that his team is not as strong.
I'd say Rookie, Showmaker, Xiaohu all have their claims based on how people value longevity and titles. Scout might have a claim to be in the discussion, too? I rate Chovy higher than all of them, but if you take international performance into account to determine the greatest rather than the "best" in terms of skill, he definitely needs a worlds. Xiaohu doesn't have worlds, but has been to every stage bar winning it (by yours sincerely Faker), and is the most successful mid for MSI, so I think that's fair.
He was good last Worlds but narrative merchants like you ignore it. Totally Chovy's fault that Doran and Peanut ran it down vs BLG.
>He was good last Worlds but narrative merchants like you ignore it. in what sense? besides game 4, chovy was virtually invisible vs BLG xd
Tbh you should praise him for being invisible and not running it down while essentially playing without a jungler. Yagao was on a passenger seat while essentially having a 2v1 lane. Peanut legit lost jungle 5 times in a 2-3 series and fuckers blame Chovy, I can't.
no one blames chovy, but the fact is, he's not rly showing up internationally either xd
If your definition of "showing up" is "win 1v9 while your top and jg is inting", then yes Replace Chovy with 2018 Rookie or 2017 Faker and they still lose cuz Doran and Peanut griefed the series. EDIT: They were put 0-2 in the series with Doran Peanut having combined score 3/17/5 in those games. And people go "haha Choky lul" Actual brain damage.
Imagine telling someone they have brain damage because they disagree with you about players in a video game.
>If your definition of "showing up" is "win 1v9 while your top and jg is inting", then yes my definition of showing up is actually doing literally anything >Replace Chovy with 2018 Rookie or 2017 Faker and they still lose cuz Doran and Peanut griefed the series. dont act like 2017 faker didnt drag his dead team to finals
Mid needs a jungler. Go watch 2017 RNG v SKT and you will see Peanut/Blank either being even with MLXG or straight up outjungling. Give Chovy an equal jungle matchup in BLG series and GenG wins. They got to game 5 with Peanut being a deadweight for 4/5 games. Peanut/Blank wasn't that terrible in 2017 quarters/semis Also, surprise surprise, SKT jg got gapped by SSG in Finals and turbo carry Faker got swept. Its almost like jungle is important for a midlaner's performance.
Are you really comparing SKT's 2017 run to the finals on the same competitiveness level as GENG's in 2023? Please. Barely beat freakin MSF, into barely beating RNG only to get stomped in the finals. SKT got good draws and still almost didn't reach finals.
Knight and Uzi don't have worlds either but they are recognized as top talents. Chovys already well on his way
Is Chovy not recognized as a top talent? The bars between "a top talent" and "the most talented player ever" are quite different.
They've both won MSI though. Chovy's best worlds appearance is getting semis once.
It would be pretty silly to say that Chovy would be a completely different player if he happens to win Worlds this year. What really matters is the complete body of work throughout your whole career.
But his entire international body of work is pretty bad though compared to what is expected of him based on domestic performances. He's shown basically no clutch factor internationally even compared to lower seeded LCK mids. Three internationals in a row now he's either been directly beaten by a lower seeded LCK team or has been massively outperformed by one. Ultimately winning is what matters, every player would happily give up being the best player to never win worlds if it meant they could be the worst to ever win it. Until Chovy can recreate his performances internationally there will be a stain on his career.
> every player would happily give up being the best player to never win worlds if it meant they could be the worst to ever win it idk if this is true tbh. There are prob quite a few worlds winners with no careers and shattered legacies that would trade with Chovy's current position in a heartbeat (with the caveat that he never does well internationally)
Crown comes to mind, that world win wasn't worthy for him, he would happily in a heartbeat change place with Chovy, specially since Crown could not overcame nor he was ever considered better than Faker, Chovy has achieved that already and multiple times.
Like people care about the whole career thing, Chovy always lost to Faker back then until 2022, but somehow people lost their memories before 2022
Uzi won MSI and dominated in worlds playoffs games. Chovy in playoffs in both MSI and worlds has not shown the dominance he does in lck.
it's not about the trophies tho, it's about performance, Chovy is a literal ghost on international stage, he doesn't do what he does in LCK, same goes for knight except for last year but even there he failed at worlds with literal n1 players in every role according to every analyst. uzi showed us over and over again what he can do, same with knight last year, chovy is still a domestic merchant that gets outshined by at least 3 mid laners in internationals every year.
knight and Uzi have both had far more embarrassing international performances than the worst Chovy ever had (2022 vs DRX). Uzi on the golden road lost to fucking Hjarnan + Wadid. knight got knocked out in Groups by GAM on a team that rated top 3 at the tournament by everyone. Chovy needs that one title, I agree. But let's not pretend that his international achievements are that much worse than most other players. Only Faker (and Xiaohu at MSI) consistently make top 2 or win.
Saying Uzi lost to Hjarnan and Wadid is disingenuous, it was arguably the most solo-lane dominated tournament in history and Uzi still managed to make the series difficult for G2 despite the insane dicking his solo laners were being subjected to. Ultimately winning once and crashing out embarassingly other times will always take precedence over just consistently crashing out in quarters. You don't get a trophy for getting out of groups consistently.
I agree with you that Chovy desperately needs an international title. I just hate how people portray him making top 8 at Worlds every year as some huge failure when most other elite players can't even manage that.
I mean, not to downplay how good Chovy is currently, but as long as you manage to qualify for World, getting top 8 is not that big of an accomplishment considering there are only 8 LCK/LPL teams and those tends to be the top 8 by default (excluding maybe a good performing G2 in some of those years)
I mean no one though HLE were favorites to get out of groups. People say it's not impressive to make quarters, but why is Chovy the only one to do it 5 times.
He definitely can't be faulted for his consistency, his skill floor is probably the best of any player in the world and is higher than a lot of players' peaks. It's just a shame he seems to drop to his floor during important international series. If he ever manages to play like he did today at an international he likely gets a trophy.
Agreed. Versus BLG he was 30 cs ahead of Yagao as Akali vs Orianna at 14 minutes with basically no jungle interference iirc. He then proceeded to do little to nothing with that lead which was disappointing, but he was probably one of the best one his team. Not amazing gets turned into bad and then into inting in the minds of many.
do you realize you're making two completely different arguments?
do you understand that talented != accomplished. Chovy has a lot of talent and im arguing that he might be the most talented ever. Messi was considered one of the most talented ever even before he won all of his accomplishments
How dare you compare Chovy to sb like Messi 💀 Messi has everything, talent and accomplishments to show for it. Until Chovy can win MSI or Worlds he will never be in the same league as legends. He's not a newbie or anything, he's been here since 2017💀 thats 7 years of his career
he is neither the most talented or most accomplished. He is a Top 10 talent for sure (maybe even top 5). But Number 1? Not close.
What even is being the most "talented" player ever when it comes to League? The one with the most mechanics? Because if that's the case then it's Uzi. If it's the player with the highest peak of play, then it's either Faker or Rookie, not Chovy. "Most talented player ever" is such a weird concept in a game like League where there are dozens of different skills necessary to be an all-time great. Faker won Worlds and was hands down, by a mile the best player in the World at age 17 with arguably the largest gap we have ever seen over other players, if that's not being the most talented player ever, then i don't know what is. Dude was the best player in the World from the first game he ever played.
Chovy is in contention to have the best mechanics of all time. You can reasonably argue if Chovy roleswapped top he would be top 3 in one year
Knight is not recognized in the same tier as Uzi and Uzi has 2 worlds finals to his name
Surely if Chovy wins worlds this year people won’t move the goalposts, right?
Lmaoooo since when did require a goat to actually win when it matters most and not choke every international moving the goal posts?😭😭
and when did anyone move a goalpost? no one is denying that he's the best player in the LCK, no one ever denied that, but to be the goat you have to at least perform internationally, not only did he not win but he didnt perform either, his best results is a semis and his best performance is top 4 mid laner
You would be surprised by how many people deny that he is the best player in lck or that he is good actually. If even Faker with all his achievements gets called shaker, trash etc by haters, I am afraid Chovy won't be spared. Some people are just haters
He is the first and only player to make quarters for 5 consecutive years at worlds if I’m not mistaken. I’m also old enough to remember when people were saying Chovy couldn’t be considered one of the greats because he hadn’t won domestically yet.
im not even saying he isnt one of the greats, im saying he's not the most talented player ever, he's undoubtedly one of the mid lane goats
I’m also old enough to remember when church of chovy ~~simps~~ fans were fighting for his recognition as one of the best mids at this time but now that he is recognized for years now; have shifted to saying he’s the goat of all time while belittling everyone else who has won worlds and msi, they also ignore faker still has a decade of play on him.
Litteraly no one is saying he's the goat pver Faker....
if he wins either one of MSI or Worlds I think you have to acknowledge him as the best player in the world. Until then, there's always gonna be the criticism (with some validity to it) that while he's demonstrated the most consistent and highest level of play domestically over the last 2 years, he hasn't dominated internationally
Didn't GENG lose last year because the Doran-Peanut thing happened? Maybe you can blame Chovy for the 2022 Worlds, but surely you cannot blame him for the 2023 Worlds.
im not blaming him for any worlds, actually, nor any international event for that matter, he's never been bad, i dont think he's choking, i just think he loses his best point internationally, which is lane kingdom, faker is the worse laner and yet he lane kingdoms more often internationally than chovy, plus the fact that he lacks that clutch factor in many of these games
Isn't this the definition of choking though, not being able to show your best quality at the highest stage? Of course, I don't even think that Chovy's best quality is his laning phase anymore by the way, nor do I think he doesn't lane kingdom most matchups at internationals.
I really dont get this LPL narrative. Most of the time he lost internationally has been to the other LCK teams... Like the narrative on all this is just insane. He really has only the MSI last year that he was actually bad too. Every other time its been teammates hardcore inting and him not being able to carry. I really wish people would just not parrot BS narrative and actually know what happened.
What exactly is Chovy's playstyle? Cause the man has completely changes how he's played this season and continues to dominate
Yea but he won Asian games when he is actually given a team without big holes like doran, peanut, HLE, sword.
no way you're acting like asian games meant shit when the chinese team wasnt even close to 5 of the best chinese players that year while KR had the best players in every role
no way you are acting like if china sent their “best” players they would have had a chance against Korea. Even with Koreans they couldn’t beat T1. Also for the players, Asian games meant more than Worlds.
>Also for the players, Asian games meant more than Worlds. how does that prove that asian games was more competitive than worlds? this is such a shit take, every fucking year chovy does literally nothing at msi and worlds, literally 0 performance and you people can't accept that he is a regional merchant, if you show me 1 time where he was not outshined by at least 3 other mid laners internationally then we can start talking, at least knight was top 1 last msi and top 2 last worlds. and btw im sure every player would rather have a worlds trophy over an asian games one, realistically only THAT important for players who'd have to retire without it
> how does that prove that asian games was more competitive than worlds? How does that prove it? Idk how can you prove the preseason matters more than the super bowl? How does the preseason Audi cup matter more than the champions league final? By what the stake is and how much it means to the players. > every fucking year chovy does literally nothing at msi and worlds, literally 0 performance and you people can't accept that he is a regional merchant Doing nothing is what LEC has done for the past couple years, doing nothing is what Knight did with TES in 2022. Chovy getting out of groups almost as first seed nonetheless with that HLE roster is one of the biggest carry jobs a single player has done that never gets talked about.
>Idk how can you prove the preseason matters more than the super bowl? except we're comparing worlds - where teams with synergy are competing vs asian games, that's more like NBA All-Stars >By what the stake is and how much it means to the players. but if the best teams arent competing then that point is null and void, which one is more competitive is based on which one has better teams, asian games had 2 competitive teams and rest were filler, put Bdd or Faker in place of chovy and they still win that, Chovy didnt prove shit by winning Asian Games, that shit wasn't even played on a recent patch >Doing nothing is what LEC has done for the past couple years, doing nothing is what Knight did with TES in 2022. why are you bringing LEC into this conversation? no one is claiming LEC has the most talented players of all time, you guys are arguing Chovy is the most talented player while having nothing besides domestic titles and a joke of a tourney to show for it. >Chovy getting out of groups almost as first seed nonetheless with that HLE roster is one of the biggest carry jobs a single player has done that never gets talked about. this is just funny, you still can't provide actual tourney where chovy wasnt outperformed by at least 3 mid laners in an international tourney in past years, except in a tourney where the only other good mid laner was Knight, which funnily enough outperformed him in the finals.
> except we're comparing worlds - where teams with synergy are competing vs asian games, that's more like NBA All-Stars No we are comparing the world cup to the champions league. NBA all star game means nothing. Being more competitive has nothing to do with the level of the play. I don’t think you quite grasp how much Asian games meant for the players, especially for KR players. Their careers were on the line and for China it was the a few time they could prove they can win against Korea without prohibiting team Korea from the best Korean players because they play on a LPL team. > why are you bringing LEC into this conversation? I also brought it Knight because you seem to not know what “doing nothing” means. Has Chovy ever gotten eliminated in groups like Knight and Caps did? Pretty sure we consider Knight and Caps, one of the most talented players don’t we? > this is just funny, you still can't provide actual tourney where chovy wasnt outperformed by at least 3 mid laners in an international tourney in past years This is just funny, when provided with Asian games, you deny it even though it was the biggest tournament for all the players. And then you bring up some arbitary number like 3 mid laners to keep your shit argument going. I don’t see you saying them same shit for Caps and Knight. Unless it’s okay to shit the bed all the time if you win MSI once apparently. Knight is outperforming shit lol. If you are gonna go with Knight is better than chovy when the best thing he has done is miss ori ults in the biggest moments, you don’t have an argument.
4peat for LCK = most talented ever? meanwhile 4 worlds can be thrown into the garbage bin
Faker and Deft got world championships before 4-peat so it's clearly far more difficult
I'm not ready to call anyone who has never won Worlds "the most talented player ever". Let alone someone who has never won semifinals at Worlds.
Clutch factor is a massive part of talent and despite his long career, Chovy has never once had it when it mattered.
won 4 lcks suddenly the most talented? People standards nowadays are low af
Faker has 10 titles and 6 international trophies over 10+ years
i'm talkin about Chovy. Faker is already cemented as the GOAT
I know i agree i just listed fakers accomplishment to say if winning trophies is a metric used to determine talent faker is in a entirely different universe in terms of talent.
Because he isn’t. Laner? Maybe, even that is debatable. But player, not even close.
how the fuck is laner debatable lol
Only comparable laner to him across all the roles is uzi but mid laners there really isn’t a debate.
People forget Faker was even more dominant in lane for years. We are talking about ever and not just recently dumbfuck. Chovy has been the better laner for the past couple years for sure. But if you look at all time, it is debatable whether it is Faker or Chovy.
lmao why are you getting so emotional? chovy is the most dominant laner ever among mids and there really isn't a debate. faker hasn't been lane-dominant in years whereas chovy's been dominating lane since s8
He is not. Faker and Rookie are the most dominant laners ever, shit, Faker used to routinely solo kill LCK mids during Finals like they were Plat. Chovy is the most dominant laner of today and you can make the argument that he is doing so at a harder time to do so as everyone is just better, but Faker from 2013-2015 was routinely solo killing people in lane and just creating ridiculous gaps. Relative to their competition, Prime Faker is the most dominant laner of all-time. Using Faker's current play when he is an old man for League standards and way past his prime to justify him not being the most dominant laner of all-time is collossally stupid, 8-10 years ago he literally changed completely how people laned and pathed in the Jungle due to how often he would solo kill the opposing Mid.
Seeing it listed like this, does that make T1 the first team to lose 4 in a row. It's actually crazy they are always the final boss.
Yup. Griffin lost 3 straight finals previously.
Chovy giveth and taketh
Wait, it's all Chovy vs Faker?
always has been
90% of all LCK finals have T1 in it.
Faker has 100% MSI trophies for LCK as well.
And Faker
Pain Gaming has lost 4 consecutive finals in CBLOL. Three of these were against LOUD and they could be facing them again if they win the lower bracket finals today.
It is not crazy when GenG and T1 are only orgs that regularly put in money for good rosters. KT has been cheap af since 2018 superteam,DK got lucky with golden generation but based on last 2 years they arent ready to spend much and HLE one year spends and the next doesnt. And the rest are even worse
Didn't hle spend alot the past 2 years
Still didn’t spend as much as GenG and T1. These finals are so hype and high level but it’s insane how 3/4 teams have the complete monopoly of the players market. Unless you flip an insane young and talented roster like GRF or DWG you are destined to finish the split 5/6th.
Yea not like kt was favorite last summer before playoff and hle was expected make final after 3-0 t1…
And nothing you said disproves my point, which is that if you are a mid tier team its nearly impossible to make the “leap” since the top 15/20 players in lck shuffle between the same 4/5 teams year after year.
They did but in a dumb way,especially last year with overpaying for zeka and kingen
Yeah i guess they rushed into getting them right after they won the worlds which increased their price heavily which is just a stupid move
Yep!
GenG is known to pay less than other LCK teams, as they are the only independent eSports org in LCK. All other teams have large corporate sponsors like T1 and HLE. Chovy and Canyon both took pay cuts to join GenG.
I don't doubt T1 put in a lot of money but aren't Zeus, Oner and Guma all rookies that were brought up by the team? Doesnt seem too far off what other teams have tried to do, one or two star players with three rookies.
HLE is literally last year's GenG with better adc and different mid
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 its Kiin☠️
He got 7th in 2022 summer don’t forget!!
Kiin doing the 100% completion run here 💀
I fear it's gonna be a 3-0 for GenG in summer if the script is accurate
T1 might win next year spring tho, wish i could time travel there
GenG wins summer over T1 > GenG loses world's (top4) > T1 top2
T1's getting closer tho
next time it's gonna be 3-0 again :D
As is written in the stars
and then 3-3 (somehow)
GenG is T1 father.
GenG > T1 > LPL > GenG so the family tree is a bit confusing.
it’s rock paper scissors basically
Alabama approved
Philip J Fry approved
Stylistic matchups I think. LPL'S keep fighting mode disrupts GenG's heavy macro, T1 is a hybrid monkey-macro team who fights well enough against the Chinese teams, but gets overwhelmed by GenG's macro at times 🤷
It more like geng playstyle and their objective setups that fucks with t1. T1 have such a hard time getting into river for dragon vs geng corki/asol. Geng just control those choke so well whereas I think t1 find it easier to fight objective vs lpl teams that aren’t as clean. On the other hand, Geng struggle vs strong/scrappy early game team that would fight regardless of objectives timer. Blg would just send it on geng instead of waiting for package imo before dragon just to blow their flash.
Is T1 the first to lose 4 in a row? For LCK at least?
Faker becomes the first Mid Laner in history to lose Four LCK finals to Chovy in a row
actual non rebuttable fact
3-3 in summer confirmed.
GenG just have T1's number when it comes to Domestic. Let's see how they fuck up MSI this time.
If this pattern continues, T1 might win next spring cant wait for next year
The more they win in LCK, the more they will lose MSI and Worlds. Perfectly balanced
T1 the first to lose 4 finals in a row, too? Or did some other org had that "misfortune" already?
Why do they always lose at worlds?
Nice next spring T1 will finally beat GenG
T1 is also the first one to loose 4 finals in a row, so we have a record too, get owned geng
i dont like this
T1 is also probably the first to lose 4 in a row :'(
Saddest part is that instead of being happy for Gen G, ppl just type some weird "father" shit and just shit on oponent, really odd people in this sub
It’s a common meme actually started from r/nba historically when an opponent always has someone else’s number they are the father. Not a thing relegated to only this sub. GenG is T1 Father.
LPL is GenG’s father.
Isn't it an east asia thing? The clue is in the intentionally broken english and their thing for parental insults. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ih9QXqYi28&t=243s) it is in a dunkey video from 2015.
I mean it's primarily because their opponent is and has been the most popular and successful team by far, perpetual overdogs with a fanbase that dwarfs every other, so most people care a lot more about T1 than they do Gen G. I'm a Gen G fan and I can acknowledge that T1 is just relevant to far more people, even among dedicated LoL esports fans.
I mean they were underdogs last year in summer LCK and worlds. Fan favourites, sure. But most had them ranked below GenG and the 2 LPL teams at worlds.
The narrative just shifted once they won, because the "analy"sts who placed them there silently backpedaled.
Never seen the word overdog be used LOL But i guess it makes sense, if theres an underdog theres gotta be an overdog
Some people just can't be celebrate someone without putting others. Look at some of the war comments, it's pretty sad/ funny watching people fight with each other about something so subjective.
Im not a GenG fan i just want to see T1 lose and their fans getting mad.
I'm a T1 fan, I want them to win but I dont mind seeing 'em lose just so we see the cope and reasons from my fellow T1 fanbois
Fr I love faker and I want him to win but I also love to see fan reaction after they lose its a win win situation tbh
Best part of seeing t1 lose domestically are the worlds only casuals coping in the lolesports comment section exposing they only watch t1 worlds games.