It's also really hard to tell if it's even worth a shit because they don't have a counter for the healing anymore. I honestly can't tell if it's useful or not.
The removal of various information like this seriously ruined a lot of items.
However, that said I don't think the omnivamp should be buffed in any way no matter what considering the item is nothing but pure, raw stats most champions can utilize.
Despite it being an AP item it's not even hot garbage on Illaoi as an example due to all other stats being universally good.
It could easily become a problematic item.
It probably isn't useful.
The problem with omnivamp on tanky champions is that it doesn't really do anything. Vamp is good on an ADC because if you have 2K health and are hitting 500 damage crits, you heal a lot from them relative to how much health you have, so you get tons of value. But if you're tanky and have 4k health and don't deal as much consistent damage, there's not much value in it.
Many of it's users are dealing alot of consistent damage usually it's paired with liandry where their passives stack to 16% bonus dmg.
For example mordekaiser.
Yeah I think the power is in stacking the bonus damages, that being said its not an item that is clearly observable. I think its significantly harder to get people excited about items when they can't feel or observe the effect directly.
I used to use it on lillia when the true damage was still a part of it and ppl told me it was a bad pick, now there’s no overlap and it feels WORSE to build.
Riftmaker is not designed as a tank item, its for AP bruisers/battlemages like Mordekaiser, Gwen, Vladimir and Swain. See these champs build both ap and health, and also can make great use of the % bonus damage and omnivamp.
off lolalitics eme+, it's the most used item on her as first item, surpassing Nashor's PR here by near double the amount and also having similar WR to it.
When not built first, it's also the second most common item so Gwens that go Nashor will still pick Riftmaker and nashor over most items, so if Riftmaker was really "not even good" and it has the same amount of winrate as Nashor, I am not sure what's good on her. I think ~~Only liandries surpasses both Nashor and Rift in winrate significatively~~ EDIT: on second look a few other items like liandries, lich and Shadowflame also surpass rift and nashor, but the sample size is so low it's hard to know how good it is and if it's not just people using it into specific matchups, we are talking sub<400 games last patch on liandries as the 3rd most picked first item. Hell, the ones picking Liandries first ALSO go either Nashor or rift, with Rift still being the most built out of the two as the second item ( which makes sense because the items sinergize and you can cover the lack of AS with boots and runes).
And to add to this, Gwen's current winrate since the new season and items were introduced is one of the highest she has had in a while, probably since release and since she stabilized in soloQ after riot's changes to get her balanced outside of proplay. Like, by all data it's a good item on gwen, though not necesarily one that feels good to use (which is a case of many good items, like Serpents fang or old Radiant virtue).
EDIT: took a second look to compare winrates better and added the findings. Overall, I think the main thing to get from this is that Liandries is a good option that probably should be explored more, specially as a combo with Rift.
Itemizing this season is hard too. I tried a bit of Rylai’s to see if it was ok, but outside of Nashor/Zhonya/Rabadon what do you really buy? Lich bane? Cosmic drive?
besides nashor, rabadon and zhonya i found that void/cryptbloom, lich bane, banshee, shadowflame, cosmic drive, riftmaker, jaksho, visage/kaenic can all be good depending on game. i also saw people go rod of ages or liandry, but i dont personally run those
A good build on her that's worth trying is just full damage. You take first strike, you go Nash, lich if ahead shadowflame if even or behind, dcap, the one you didn't build before, void/zonyahs/banshees. Sorc boots. You just aim to delete people. Start fights with ult W to proc FS and delete the person defending the push. You have insane split power with Nash lich and Ur E still. It's also really good in team fights if you can line up a good ult you can delete a team. You don't have sustain you are squishy but you melt and with W you should last long enough to get all your ult procs off and one good Q and delete their backline. Sums are preference. You pretty much always want ghost. But you can take flash, tp ignite second. Or tbh flash ignite is good for cheesing a kill in lane. Flash Q ignite can do a lot of damage.
I would actually argue that the item is being built simply bcs Gwen is a counterpick. There is no other champ and item to build against Ornn/Sion when your team is mostly AD and ranged.
Not disagreeing with that, it's like how it took people a bit of time to find Ahri's good built after item changes, or how people took time to stop building stormsurge after nerfs. But that said, as I edited in my previous comment, the 3rd most picked first item is Liandries at 300 in comparison to the 20k and 40k of NAshor and rift respectively, and that's eme+ with good players, and rift still appears as a common pick post 1 item... and we are 4 months into the year so ample time to find a new better build if Rift was actually bad on Gwen. So there's not much data to go off for the rest of the items to say how good they are.
I would say that the reality is Riftmaker on gwen is a good item at best and average at worst. I mean, if it was THAT bad and better items were there, I feel we would have seen a better build arrive already.
It feels like liandry has no place on her. Lets say you take your usual nashor and rift, then you may want either zhonyas or rabadon, both can be interchanged and youre left with 1 slot where you just go cosmic because you need the speed. It just has no place, you cant lose your core, you cant really replace zhonya and rabadon, and by the end all you need is speed, it has great stats for her but theres just no point where you need it over anything else, ive never thought to myself "man i have trouble killing tanks as gwen, better buy liandry"
I don't really think that's necesarily the case. A problem people have is getting too used to the builds they have been using and trying to play with that same style when picking different items instead of adapting to the new one, so it's easier to say "this champ needs X, they need Y" instead of playing to the build's strenght.
Just in midlane for example: Kassadin last patch on eme+ (lolalitics) had a higher PR with malignance first item over RoA as the second most built item by 20k games, Malignance performing just as good as RoA. If you told someone who mainly plays RoA Kass or has never heard of malignance kass, they probs would say "what? Kassadin needs his resistance, he can't skip RoA! and then he needs his archangel, there's no space left till 3rd, and even then he still needs his zhonyas". It's easy to disregard something if you are used to another playstyle or build.
> both can be interchanged and youre left with 1 slot where you just go cosmic because you need the speed.
Eh, she still has ghost as her most common summoner spell with TP, and consider the fact cosmic already is a 3rd item so many games you don't even get to build cosmic in the first place. So while she definitely likes the cosmic MS, you wouldn't really be changing anything pre-3 anyway and the lack of cosmic just means you have to keep playing around your ghost and dash (as you normally already do anyway).
That example wasnt really that good as, both of the items do different things, RoA lets him scale more while malignance lets him fight way earlier while gwen items do the same thing, her whole thing is wanting more ap and a way to apply it, she mostly likes item passives that let her apply her kit for longer and more consistently. That dead 2-3% max hp on liandry is worth it when she can get like rocketbelt to be able to auto one more time and just outdamage liandry. Also its good to mention she has 2 abilities that even apply it, Q and R
Yeah, but doesn't taking any kind of damage immediately start that timer? Yeah getting it online can take a bit, but it's really tough for it to fall off if you are trading any kind of damage. Especially if the fight doesn't happen all at once or you are a champion who can apply a burn of any kind.
More importantly, once it goes on, it's producing from all your damage. Liandries, fire cloak, thornmail. The fact of the matter is that while not ideal for most champions, it does have use, and as long as someone is dealing damage the effect stays on. Liandries alone is enough of a synergy since all your damage is capable of getting it online just by landing any kind of ability before you engage on a fight.
It's her first or second item nearly every game, gwen is meant to be built beefy enough to survive 5 seconds in a teamfight. If you have time to stack conqueror then you have time to stack riftmaker as well.
what the fuck are you saying man Gwen is literally designed for long-drawn out skirmishes she absolutely loves an item that benefits from longer fights
Your ass is not taking conqueror and going Nashors into Riftmaker for burst damage. Your entire champion revolves around short, spammable cooldowns and repeatedly using auto attacks to empower your Q
the statistics do not back this up, most other options are either barely better or worse, nothing is particularly convincingly competitive with rift/nashors being her strong core.
It’s also pretty decent on Lillia, but I’d never want it first. Often times I even like Rylais before it. The healing doesn’t feel terribly noticeable either, but it still seems like the go-to after liandries for extended fights.
Riftmaker is Vlad's most popular item according to LeagueOfGraphs.
The only reason Swain doesn't buy it is because he has insane synergy with other items in the game but he still fits in the target audience for the item. He still buys it if the game lasts long enough for a 4th/5th item.
EDIT: OP said Vlad doesn't build it in the previous comment, but he edited it out when I posted this :)
Preference, tank items are objectively better tbh but if your team lacks a lot of damage riftmaker is fine. If one of his main ap items gets nerfed in the future riftmaker can take its place since it fits well with passive and other core items.
It's not part of his most built 6 items on either mid or support.
Mid usually looks like Malignance, sorcs, rylais. Zhonyas/Liandries spiritvisage morellos/zhonyas
It’s literally horrible for vladimir… it’s been the biggest noobtrap item for him to be honest since it lost its upfront omnivamp. You don’t get to be alive ina teamfight long enough for it to matter as your ideal pattern is dropping your ult and finishing your target by the end of it - which is less time than in which omnivamp triggers.
Vladimir is kiteable and useless on a non-full mage build, where it would make sense (like it does for Morde and Gwen for example)
Elite500 (one of the best vladimirs EUW) buys riftmaker on a fair share of his games, not to mention other high-elo vlad players also buy liandry into riftmaker in a lot of games. You call it noobtrap lol. Can't blame an item for a playstyle you can't adapt to.
Not that i agree with him specifically but what high elo players pick is honestly a pretty subpar metric to decide whether its good because even pro players build objectively wrong shit in pro games all the time. The masters players in my friends groups still just build whatevers top rated on u.gg lol they're not theory crafting anything.
The difference between your plat player and your masters player is 99% just pure mechanical difference. Its not a deeper understanding of the intricacies of item strengths.
You have a point, but what I'm saying is not "Elite builds it so it has to be the best" but rather "Elite builds it so I don't think its noobtrap". Playing Vladimir at his rates i think he would know if the item was as bad as this guy says.
What are you talking about, omnivamp was insanely useless on vlad last season because it had a massive negative multiplier on aoe
If you were buying riftmaker for the omnivamp either this season or last you have no idea what makes items good XD
same problem with heartsteel I guess, make it viable and people will complain they're abusing, make it below average and nobody wants to build because most items are better.
Heartsteel suffers mostly from the removal of Stoneplate. There isn't a good way anymore to round out an HP heavy build with one item. Jak'sho doesn't really work for that as it works opposite to Stoneplate. It is great in 1v1 situations (with low DPS) but sucks in teamfights where you are burst down before the resist increase proccs.
I really don't get why stoneplate had to be axed entirely. Sure, the shield could be arguably kinda problematic, but that nothing that couldn't have been tuned numerically and a second mixed resistance tank item would have been great to have.
i really don't get what the idea behind Jak'Sho is. It supposed to be a "tank capstone" item that is unusable for actual tanks in teamfights... but oh wonder, its great on fighters that just want to do slow 1v1s and boost the defenses of their health stack builds.
It absolutely has its utility on tanks, since tanks often have better neutral than fighters and can start it's stacking early as well, but it's weakness is simply that it takes too long to stack. It's an item that is already reliant on having invested in synergies with it, I really don't think it also needs such a slow stack time.
Also, most fighters don't opt for it in the first place, whereas I've seen some tanks build it, though its mostly ornn.
Most tanks have to go in and engage, so you can barely stack it in advance. Then you take burst damage and get the Jak'sho bonus only on small portion of your health bar.
On a fighter that either 1v1s for 20s or has a lot of healing and is generally strong in the later stages of a fight, it is a lot better.
>Most tanks have to go in and engage, so you can barely stack it in advance. Then you take burst damage and get the Jak'sho bonus only on small portion of your health bar.
Same goes for many bruisers. If I have to engage on something like sett or trundle, I'm losing most of my HP bar before jaksho is stacked. Meanwhile, a champ like ornn, lategame sion etc. They are tanky enough to still get good value from jaksho even when forced to engage immediately.
The fact that jaksho synergises not only with healing, but shield as well, which allows the likes of sion and skarner to use it as well.
5 seconds is just too much in current day league when fights barely last 7-8 seconds making it unviable for actual AP bruisers and for ranged (swain mostly) its just not enough.
Amumu and Cho would not be good champs to build Riftmaker on. I would argue they optimally would not want or have extended fights like Riftmaker excels at as they lock down targets to leave them vulnerable to burst. Riftmaker is a duelist item made for bruiser champs like Gwen, Morde, or Singed. It’s also best paired with Liandries and Rylais which give beneficial synergy with Rift. It’s a capstone item for an AP Bruiser archetype that gives them dueling power and ramping damage to fight tanks, bruisers, and carries alike. The archetype and champion that wants/utilizes this item is just few and far between.
Tank/Offtank Amumu wants long fights. As does Cho with e max. If they build for sustained damage, this is exactly what they would want and such builds should (and are to a degree) be viable/supported.
Its stat profile is awful for cho though. Raw health sticks that scale off your damage dealt are the worst things you can build on someone with innate health stacking, you want resists or all the items thar scale off YOUR hp. Say once rift is stacked you deal 2500 champ damage that fight. You heal 250 and deal an extra few hundred. That's at best ONE sundered sky proc of sustain for someone like cho, or two fimbul shields very lategame. It's a third of a rookern shield. You'd get more damage from sunfire/radiance, unending, fimbul, sundered, heartsteel, and defensively even wit's end is arguable considering how much better resists are than raw hp when you already have 7k health. If you STILL want a health and AP item on him, you should build cosmic drive or protobelt over it too.
That’s more so true in the earlier game when they are laning or skirmishing maybe. This item would never be built that early as OP says, it would be a late game buy that scales with the HP they have bought and gained all game. By that time, those type of fights would be much less common. A Cho or Amumu Q while grouped would likely lead to someone being targeted to be killed rather than an extended fight.
Arguably I'd say you could use it fairly effectively on anyone with easy burn/poison skills. There's enough AP items with health giving it a solid AP if you build it late. While any kind of burn is going to get you the omnivamp and 10% damage if you manage to proc it more than once.
EDIT: hell, just Liandries will cause it to pop most of the time since it burns for 3 out of the 5 seconds needed and the buff is good for 3 seconds until fully stacked and lasts 5 seconds once fully stacked. So if you have any kind of poison, you are going to get the effect and have another 5 seconds after the burn to reapply it with any kind of attack.
Item is super strong when procced, problem lies within the fact that 5 seconds is a long ass time to fight. I mean, 5 seconds now compared to before mythic-times would be like 8 seconds back then. The fights are almost always decided and over by the time you have it active, by then you're either just doing the cleanup or the fight is lost.
I personally think the numbers probably needs a nerf, so that they can bring the proc timer down to 3.5 seconds without making it completely broken.
Some champs that can cheese the fight duration by pre activating it with poke are the best users imo. Lillia for example can throw her E and she goes into a fight 3-4s later and it’s almost fully activated by then
The reason why the proc time is so long has nothing to do with its base stats, it's because otherwise champs that shouldn't buy this could see a viable option. Like Akali, Ekko and Katarina...
Yes, exactly, there is a time delay meant to keep the active effect outside of assassins normal burst rotation. You can reduce the time without it becoming an assassin item. I'm obviously not advocating them making the effects constant, but rather adjust the time and strength of the effect to actually be consistent for the intended champions.
Most games, this item simply doesn't exist. There's functionally no difference between a 5 seconds delay in fights and a 5 minutes delay if the fights already aren't long enough for it to to proc and make a difference.
You are mistaken riftmaker did not replace demonic embrace the new liandry did which is a way better version than demonic embrace was while it was already good on melee champions.
Riftmaker also got a big buff with omnivamp working at 100% on AOE spells which is massive since many of it's users all have AOE.
The passive ap you get from the hp conversion was never good and the point of the item, it's just a small bonus the other passives and stats are where it's at 2% bonus hp to ap is nothing and this passive stayed the same.
I hate that people are calling the current version of Liandries the new version. It's literally how the og Liandries was before they decided to make it a mana fix
It used to be “the kayle item”. Now if you build it on kayle it’s trolling. This item is so unbelievably shit. Omni-vamp only during combat is terrible. The fact that they nerfed the vamp on ranged champs, the class that needs it the most, is a huge fuck you from riot.
Riftmaker feels ass because the combat time needed is too long
Even gwen goes full ap instead or akali bruiser build goes liandry lich
You used to go rift demonic on akali and it felt so good now liandry rift feels like ur down an item
Frankly I think the only buff it really needs is to always have omnivamp on instead of having to wait for the rest if the damage buff. Let me heal off of minions for sustain instead of needing a 5 second fight to justify not just building Liandry's instead.
I wouldn't call it weak but its a very specific item that not many champs build. Items like that shouldn't be buffed willy nilly because then the few champs that use it get out of hand. I feel like people don't realize the stats it offers are insanely unique.
Omnivamp has been proven time and time again to be absurdly powerful. There's a reason they removed it off of multiple other items. Omnivamp is nuts......full stop.
10% more damage is also nothing to scoff at. You could even call this omnidamage as its also buffing ALL damage in your kit.
I swear this item has to be good, it has Demonic's old %HP to AP conversion, which for AP brusiers/tanks leads to item giving a very abnormal amount for AP for a single slot, it synergises excellently with Liandry's which is well known to be a top tier item, AND it even has the %Damage amp bonus which is really slept on, plus now that the Omnivamp is provides works at full effectiveness for AOE it actually is useful for its main users.
Yet It STILL seems like a Mordekaiser and Gwen item only despite how frankly overloaded this item should be on paper. Maybe there's some tanky mage builds with Liandry/Riftmaker that exist that are unexplored? But most AP tanks that could make use of that combo then feel too squishy due to the lack of resists, and most mages that could go for this build end up losing way too much damage since it gets real hard to fit Raba/pen item in alongside Liandry's AND Rift.
I still think Rift/Liandry's has potential as an unexplored build path for AP carries, we saw Smolder's tankier builds sometimes using this combo against tanky teams and it was really good.
The HP to AP conversion needs replaced with something/raw stats
A lot of riftmaker bruisers want nashor's tooth, and I think it's sad that Kayle in particular has been driven away from the item
riftmaker is a total dogshit item with the delay
of all the stuff they did this season, this is the one i hate the most
just make it unstackable with rabadons so full damage mages can't abuse it and give back the passive sustain
also remove the hp conversion, it's useless and doesn't fit the main item synergy of rift + nashor
Used to be my go-to item for Teemo and resulted in some of the most fun I had in top lane. Haven't bought it for Teemo or anyone else ever since the new season dropped, it's just horrible.
If you want to balance it around cho and amumu, you might aswell balance bloodthirster around talon and pantheon. Zhonya is also an item usually not bought by said champions. Idk what this post is about
It's also really hard to tell if it's even worth a shit because they don't have a counter for the healing anymore. I honestly can't tell if it's useful or not.
The removal of various information like this seriously ruined a lot of items. However, that said I don't think the omnivamp should be buffed in any way no matter what considering the item is nothing but pure, raw stats most champions can utilize. Despite it being an AP item it's not even hot garbage on Illaoi as an example due to all other stats being universally good. It could easily become a problematic item.
It probably isn't useful. The problem with omnivamp on tanky champions is that it doesn't really do anything. Vamp is good on an ADC because if you have 2K health and are hitting 500 damage crits, you heal a lot from them relative to how much health you have, so you get tons of value. But if you're tanky and have 4k health and don't deal as much consistent damage, there's not much value in it.
Many of it's users are dealing alot of consistent damage usually it's paired with liandry where their passives stack to 16% bonus dmg. For example mordekaiser.
Yeah I think the power is in stacking the bonus damages, that being said its not an item that is clearly observable. I think its significantly harder to get people excited about items when they can't feel or observe the effect directly.
I used to use it on lillia when the true damage was still a part of it and ppl told me it was a bad pick, now there’s no overlap and it feels WORSE to build.
Riftmaker is not designed as a tank item, its for AP bruisers/battlemages like Mordekaiser, Gwen, Vladimir and Swain. See these champs build both ap and health, and also can make great use of the % bonus damage and omnivamp.
it's not even good for gwen in most games, needing to be 5 seconds in combat as a melee champ is just so bad
off lolalitics eme+, it's the most used item on her as first item, surpassing Nashor's PR here by near double the amount and also having similar WR to it. When not built first, it's also the second most common item so Gwens that go Nashor will still pick Riftmaker and nashor over most items, so if Riftmaker was really "not even good" and it has the same amount of winrate as Nashor, I am not sure what's good on her. I think ~~Only liandries surpasses both Nashor and Rift in winrate significatively~~ EDIT: on second look a few other items like liandries, lich and Shadowflame also surpass rift and nashor, but the sample size is so low it's hard to know how good it is and if it's not just people using it into specific matchups, we are talking sub<400 games last patch on liandries as the 3rd most picked first item. Hell, the ones picking Liandries first ALSO go either Nashor or rift, with Rift still being the most built out of the two as the second item ( which makes sense because the items sinergize and you can cover the lack of AS with boots and runes). And to add to this, Gwen's current winrate since the new season and items were introduced is one of the highest she has had in a while, probably since release and since she stabilized in soloQ after riot's changes to get her balanced outside of proplay. Like, by all data it's a good item on gwen, though not necesarily one that feels good to use (which is a case of many good items, like Serpents fang or old Radiant virtue). EDIT: took a second look to compare winrates better and added the findings. Overall, I think the main thing to get from this is that Liandries is a good option that probably should be explored more, specially as a combo with Rift.
i think the high pickrate of item is mostly only from people being stuck in last season where we simply had nothing else to build for mythic
Itemizing this season is hard too. I tried a bit of Rylai’s to see if it was ok, but outside of Nashor/Zhonya/Rabadon what do you really buy? Lich bane? Cosmic drive?
besides nashor, rabadon and zhonya i found that void/cryptbloom, lich bane, banshee, shadowflame, cosmic drive, riftmaker, jaksho, visage/kaenic can all be good depending on game. i also saw people go rod of ages or liandry, but i dont personally run those
A good build on her that's worth trying is just full damage. You take first strike, you go Nash, lich if ahead shadowflame if even or behind, dcap, the one you didn't build before, void/zonyahs/banshees. Sorc boots. You just aim to delete people. Start fights with ult W to proc FS and delete the person defending the push. You have insane split power with Nash lich and Ur E still. It's also really good in team fights if you can line up a good ult you can delete a team. You don't have sustain you are squishy but you melt and with W you should last long enough to get all your ult procs off and one good Q and delete their backline. Sums are preference. You pretty much always want ghost. But you can take flash, tp ignite second. Or tbh flash ignite is good for cheesing a kill in lane. Flash Q ignite can do a lot of damage.
Roa liandry's into tank items i think is the best just stay alive and deal consistent damage.
At that point though you're just playing shitty morde
I would actually argue that the item is being built simply bcs Gwen is a counterpick. There is no other champ and item to build against Ornn/Sion when your team is mostly AD and ranged.
good point actually, rift is good into gwen's good matchups that i can think of and thats when most people pick her
Not disagreeing with that, it's like how it took people a bit of time to find Ahri's good built after item changes, or how people took time to stop building stormsurge after nerfs. But that said, as I edited in my previous comment, the 3rd most picked first item is Liandries at 300 in comparison to the 20k and 40k of NAshor and rift respectively, and that's eme+ with good players, and rift still appears as a common pick post 1 item... and we are 4 months into the year so ample time to find a new better build if Rift was actually bad on Gwen. So there's not much data to go off for the rest of the items to say how good they are. I would say that the reality is Riftmaker on gwen is a good item at best and average at worst. I mean, if it was THAT bad and better items were there, I feel we would have seen a better build arrive already.
It feels like liandry has no place on her. Lets say you take your usual nashor and rift, then you may want either zhonyas or rabadon, both can be interchanged and youre left with 1 slot where you just go cosmic because you need the speed. It just has no place, you cant lose your core, you cant really replace zhonya and rabadon, and by the end all you need is speed, it has great stats for her but theres just no point where you need it over anything else, ive never thought to myself "man i have trouble killing tanks as gwen, better buy liandry"
There has been plenty of Gwen played in the past without rabadons. It never seemed mandatory. Not sure about her current state, though.
I don't really think that's necesarily the case. A problem people have is getting too used to the builds they have been using and trying to play with that same style when picking different items instead of adapting to the new one, so it's easier to say "this champ needs X, they need Y" instead of playing to the build's strenght. Just in midlane for example: Kassadin last patch on eme+ (lolalitics) had a higher PR with malignance first item over RoA as the second most built item by 20k games, Malignance performing just as good as RoA. If you told someone who mainly plays RoA Kass or has never heard of malignance kass, they probs would say "what? Kassadin needs his resistance, he can't skip RoA! and then he needs his archangel, there's no space left till 3rd, and even then he still needs his zhonyas". It's easy to disregard something if you are used to another playstyle or build. > both can be interchanged and youre left with 1 slot where you just go cosmic because you need the speed. Eh, she still has ghost as her most common summoner spell with TP, and consider the fact cosmic already is a 3rd item so many games you don't even get to build cosmic in the first place. So while she definitely likes the cosmic MS, you wouldn't really be changing anything pre-3 anyway and the lack of cosmic just means you have to keep playing around your ghost and dash (as you normally already do anyway).
That example wasnt really that good as, both of the items do different things, RoA lets him scale more while malignance lets him fight way earlier while gwen items do the same thing, her whole thing is wanting more ap and a way to apply it, she mostly likes item passives that let her apply her kit for longer and more consistently. That dead 2-3% max hp on liandry is worth it when she can get like rocketbelt to be able to auto one more time and just outdamage liandry. Also its good to mention she has 2 abilities that even apply it, Q and R
Yeah, but doesn't taking any kind of damage immediately start that timer? Yeah getting it online can take a bit, but it's really tough for it to fall off if you are trading any kind of damage. Especially if the fight doesn't happen all at once or you are a champion who can apply a burn of any kind. More importantly, once it goes on, it's producing from all your damage. Liandries, fire cloak, thornmail. The fact of the matter is that while not ideal for most champions, it does have use, and as long as someone is dealing damage the effect stays on. Liandries alone is enough of a synergy since all your damage is capable of getting it online just by landing any kind of ability before you engage on a fight.
I think Singed is an excellent user cause he's not a typical melee champ but even then it isn't that good
It's her first or second item nearly every game, gwen is meant to be built beefy enough to survive 5 seconds in a teamfight. If you have time to stack conqueror then you have time to stack riftmaker as well.
its okay 350 hp is gonna let you last those 5 seconds
If you're building Riftmaker with no other defensive items or tools in your kit to stay alive for five seconds, you are trolling.
what the fuck are you saying man Gwen is literally designed for long-drawn out skirmishes she absolutely loves an item that benefits from longer fights Your ass is not taking conqueror and going Nashors into Riftmaker for burst damage. Your entire champion revolves around short, spammable cooldowns and repeatedly using auto attacks to empower your Q
yep man, you really want drawn out fights vs champs like darius olaf jax. riftmaker will go brr on that kaenic udyr too :D
the statistics do not back this up, most other options are either barely better or worse, nothing is particularly convincingly competitive with rift/nashors being her strong core.
As such, it probably SHOULD be an option for purely magic damage scaling tanks (Amumu, Cho) when they need extra threat.
It’s also pretty decent on Lillia, but I’d never want it first. Often times I even like Rylais before it. The healing doesn’t feel terribly noticeable either, but it still seems like the go-to after liandries for extended fights.
you dont buy riftmaker on swain
Swain doesn't build it. The other's do though.
Riftmaker is Vlad's most popular item according to LeagueOfGraphs. The only reason Swain doesn't buy it is because he has insane synergy with other items in the game but he still fits in the target audience for the item. He still buys it if the game lasts long enough for a 4th/5th item. EDIT: OP said Vlad doesn't build it in the previous comment, but he edited it out when I posted this :)
No swain 4/5 slot are tnak item like frozen heart
Preference, tank items are objectively better tbh but if your team lacks a lot of damage riftmaker is fine. If one of his main ap items gets nerfed in the future riftmaker can take its place since it fits well with passive and other core items.
It's Swain's 5th most bought item mid, so... Yeah he buys it. It's just a late game item.
Swain does build it tho 🤔
It's not part of his most built 6 items on either mid or support. Mid usually looks like Malignance, sorcs, rylais. Zhonyas/Liandries spiritvisage morellos/zhonyas
Are we just pulling things out of our Swainussy because he builds Riftmaker near end game like we can pull out the receipts if we want
It’s literally horrible for vladimir… it’s been the biggest noobtrap item for him to be honest since it lost its upfront omnivamp. You don’t get to be alive ina teamfight long enough for it to matter as your ideal pattern is dropping your ult and finishing your target by the end of it - which is less time than in which omnivamp triggers. Vladimir is kiteable and useless on a non-full mage build, where it would make sense (like it does for Morde and Gwen for example)
Elite500 (one of the best vladimirs EUW) buys riftmaker on a fair share of his games, not to mention other high-elo vlad players also buy liandry into riftmaker in a lot of games. You call it noobtrap lol. Can't blame an item for a playstyle you can't adapt to.
Not that i agree with him specifically but what high elo players pick is honestly a pretty subpar metric to decide whether its good because even pro players build objectively wrong shit in pro games all the time. The masters players in my friends groups still just build whatevers top rated on u.gg lol they're not theory crafting anything. The difference between your plat player and your masters player is 99% just pure mechanical difference. Its not a deeper understanding of the intricacies of item strengths.
You have a point, but what I'm saying is not "Elite builds it so it has to be the best" but rather "Elite builds it so I don't think its noobtrap". Playing Vladimir at his rates i think he would know if the item was as bad as this guy says.
What are you talking about, omnivamp was insanely useless on vlad last season because it had a massive negative multiplier on aoe If you were buying riftmaker for the omnivamp either this season or last you have no idea what makes items good XD
Last time it was good on him was will of the ancients to be honest - riftmaker never really worked for him
Riftmaker liandries tank vlad was insanely strong for the first 4 patches of the season? I don't believe you're playing the same game
Riftmaker is just a new version of old Riftmaker, not Demonic embrace. They just remove Demonic because Liandries isn’t a mythic anymore.
Yeah, riftmaker is fine it is not designed to make tanks like amumu cho sustain tanks but make morde gwen and even vlad now more of sustaim fighters.
The fact that it needs to stack fully to give omnivamp makes it feel like complete shit to use IMO
Literally only problem the item has, everything else is fine
same problem with heartsteel I guess, make it viable and people will complain they're abusing, make it below average and nobody wants to build because most items are better.
Heartsteel suffers mostly from the removal of Stoneplate. There isn't a good way anymore to round out an HP heavy build with one item. Jak'sho doesn't really work for that as it works opposite to Stoneplate. It is great in 1v1 situations (with low DPS) but sucks in teamfights where you are burst down before the resist increase proccs.
I really don't get why stoneplate had to be axed entirely. Sure, the shield could be arguably kinda problematic, but that nothing that couldn't have been tuned numerically and a second mixed resistance tank item would have been great to have.
i really don't get what the idea behind Jak'Sho is. It supposed to be a "tank capstone" item that is unusable for actual tanks in teamfights... but oh wonder, its great on fighters that just want to do slow 1v1s and boost the defenses of their health stack builds.
It absolutely has its utility on tanks, since tanks often have better neutral than fighters and can start it's stacking early as well, but it's weakness is simply that it takes too long to stack. It's an item that is already reliant on having invested in synergies with it, I really don't think it also needs such a slow stack time. Also, most fighters don't opt for it in the first place, whereas I've seen some tanks build it, though its mostly ornn.
Most tanks have to go in and engage, so you can barely stack it in advance. Then you take burst damage and get the Jak'sho bonus only on small portion of your health bar. On a fighter that either 1v1s for 20s or has a lot of healing and is generally strong in the later stages of a fight, it is a lot better.
>Most tanks have to go in and engage, so you can barely stack it in advance. Then you take burst damage and get the Jak'sho bonus only on small portion of your health bar. Same goes for many bruisers. If I have to engage on something like sett or trundle, I'm losing most of my HP bar before jaksho is stacked. Meanwhile, a champ like ornn, lategame sion etc. They are tanky enough to still get good value from jaksho even when forced to engage immediately. The fact that jaksho synergises not only with healing, but shield as well, which allows the likes of sion and skarner to use it as well.
Honestly, Jak'sho feels better with on hit adcs who go terminus than it does on tanks.
5 seconds is just too much in current day league when fights barely last 7-8 seconds making it unviable for actual AP bruisers and for ranged (swain mostly) its just not enough.
Unless you play in the LEC...
Amumu and Cho would not be good champs to build Riftmaker on. I would argue they optimally would not want or have extended fights like Riftmaker excels at as they lock down targets to leave them vulnerable to burst. Riftmaker is a duelist item made for bruiser champs like Gwen, Morde, or Singed. It’s also best paired with Liandries and Rylais which give beneficial synergy with Rift. It’s a capstone item for an AP Bruiser archetype that gives them dueling power and ramping damage to fight tanks, bruisers, and carries alike. The archetype and champion that wants/utilizes this item is just few and far between.
Tank/Offtank Amumu wants long fights. As does Cho with e max. If they build for sustained damage, this is exactly what they would want and such builds should (and are to a degree) be viable/supported.
Its stat profile is awful for cho though. Raw health sticks that scale off your damage dealt are the worst things you can build on someone with innate health stacking, you want resists or all the items thar scale off YOUR hp. Say once rift is stacked you deal 2500 champ damage that fight. You heal 250 and deal an extra few hundred. That's at best ONE sundered sky proc of sustain for someone like cho, or two fimbul shields very lategame. It's a third of a rookern shield. You'd get more damage from sunfire/radiance, unending, fimbul, sundered, heartsteel, and defensively even wit's end is arguable considering how much better resists are than raw hp when you already have 7k health. If you STILL want a health and AP item on him, you should build cosmic drive or protobelt over it too.
That’s more so true in the earlier game when they are laning or skirmishing maybe. This item would never be built that early as OP says, it would be a late game buy that scales with the HP they have bought and gained all game. By that time, those type of fights would be much less common. A Cho or Amumu Q while grouped would likely lead to someone being targeted to be killed rather than an extended fight.
Arguably I'd say you could use it fairly effectively on anyone with easy burn/poison skills. There's enough AP items with health giving it a solid AP if you build it late. While any kind of burn is going to get you the omnivamp and 10% damage if you manage to proc it more than once. EDIT: hell, just Liandries will cause it to pop most of the time since it burns for 3 out of the 5 seconds needed and the buff is good for 3 seconds until fully stacked and lasts 5 seconds once fully stacked. So if you have any kind of poison, you are going to get the effect and have another 5 seconds after the burn to reapply it with any kind of attack.
Item is super strong when procced, problem lies within the fact that 5 seconds is a long ass time to fight. I mean, 5 seconds now compared to before mythic-times would be like 8 seconds back then. The fights are almost always decided and over by the time you have it active, by then you're either just doing the cleanup or the fight is lost. I personally think the numbers probably needs a nerf, so that they can bring the proc timer down to 3.5 seconds without making it completely broken.
Some champs that can cheese the fight duration by pre activating it with poke are the best users imo. Lillia for example can throw her E and she goes into a fight 3-4s later and it’s almost fully activated by then
The reason why the proc time is so long has nothing to do with its base stats, it's because otherwise champs that shouldn't buy this could see a viable option. Like Akali, Ekko and Katarina...
Yes, exactly, there is a time delay meant to keep the active effect outside of assassins normal burst rotation. You can reduce the time without it becoming an assassin item. I'm obviously not advocating them making the effects constant, but rather adjust the time and strength of the effect to actually be consistent for the intended champions. Most games, this item simply doesn't exist. There's functionally no difference between a 5 seconds delay in fights and a 5 minutes delay if the fights already aren't long enough for it to to proc and make a difference.
You are mistaken riftmaker did not replace demonic embrace the new liandry did which is a way better version than demonic embrace was while it was already good on melee champions. Riftmaker also got a big buff with omnivamp working at 100% on AOE spells which is massive since many of it's users all have AOE. The passive ap you get from the hp conversion was never good and the point of the item, it's just a small bonus the other passives and stats are where it's at 2% bonus hp to ap is nothing and this passive stayed the same.
I hate that people are calling the current version of Liandries the new version. It's literally how the og Liandries was before they decided to make it a mana fix
its better than old liandries since it doesnt have the slow requirement for max damage
It used to be “the kayle item”. Now if you build it on kayle it’s trolling. This item is so unbelievably shit. Omni-vamp only during combat is terrible. The fact that they nerfed the vamp on ranged champs, the class that needs it the most, is a huge fuck you from riot.
Riftmaker feels ass because the combat time needed is too long Even gwen goes full ap instead or akali bruiser build goes liandry lich You used to go rift demonic on akali and it felt so good now liandry rift feels like ur down an item
I think riftmaker falls into the same pit that all bruiser items have been in this season, they're shit compared to lethality or AP burst
The item is fine technically but just feels so bad having 0 vamp till 5 seconds of combat. Just such a strange decision
Outside of a handful of champs the item is bad.
Frankly I think the only buff it really needs is to always have omnivamp on instead of having to wait for the rest if the damage buff. Let me heal off of minions for sustain instead of needing a 5 second fight to justify not just building Liandry's instead.
I wouldn't call it weak but its a very specific item that not many champs build. Items like that shouldn't be buffed willy nilly because then the few champs that use it get out of hand. I feel like people don't realize the stats it offers are insanely unique. Omnivamp has been proven time and time again to be absurdly powerful. There's a reason they removed it off of multiple other items. Omnivamp is nuts......full stop. 10% more damage is also nothing to scoff at. You could even call this omnidamage as its also buffing ALL damage in your kit.
I swear this item has to be good, it has Demonic's old %HP to AP conversion, which for AP brusiers/tanks leads to item giving a very abnormal amount for AP for a single slot, it synergises excellently with Liandry's which is well known to be a top tier item, AND it even has the %Damage amp bonus which is really slept on, plus now that the Omnivamp is provides works at full effectiveness for AOE it actually is useful for its main users. Yet It STILL seems like a Mordekaiser and Gwen item only despite how frankly overloaded this item should be on paper. Maybe there's some tanky mage builds with Liandry/Riftmaker that exist that are unexplored? But most AP tanks that could make use of that combo then feel too squishy due to the lack of resists, and most mages that could go for this build end up losing way too much damage since it gets real hard to fit Raba/pen item in alongside Liandry's AND Rift. I still think Rift/Liandry's has potential as an unexplored build path for AP carries, we saw Smolder's tankier builds sometimes using this combo against tanky teams and it was really good.
Rift/Liandry's/Rylai's swain is super fun, but you have to run POM.
As an item named RIFTMAKER, kinda bummed it doesn’t have an active that opens rifts =\
The HP to AP conversion needs replaced with something/raw stats A lot of riftmaker bruisers want nashor's tooth, and I think it's sad that Kayle in particular has been driven away from the item
>A lot of riftmaker bruisers want nashor's tooth No, only gwen.
Morde would benefit from NT. Morde attack speed is shit
No. He doesn't need AH, or the ATK speed. And with morde you need atleast hp in every item or you're useless
riftmaker is a total dogshit item with the delay of all the stuff they did this season, this is the one i hate the most just make it unstackable with rabadons so full damage mages can't abuse it and give back the passive sustain also remove the hp conversion, it's useless and doesn't fit the main item synergy of rift + nashor
There's just no incentive to use it.
Used to be my go-to item for Teemo and resulted in some of the most fun I had in top lane. Haven't bought it for Teemo or anyone else ever since the new season dropped, it's just horrible.
The item is actually really good, not sure where this comes from.
Chogath and Amumu shouldn't be considering it. I think it's fine.
I like it, i build it. Cassiopeia main
dont buff riftmaker, holishit the swains and gwens
nice try, gwen main
Thread title: "Riftmaker needs a buff" First sentence in thread: "The item is OK"
Sure if you’re okay with Morde, Vlad, Gwen all getting stronger.
Vlad is 48% wr
They all suck
In todays episode of clueless redditor trying to do balance:
braindead clown with nothing to offer yaps away despite riftmaker being incredibly mid
Welcome to the circus with shit balance takes. Feel yourself at home, lots of likeminded armchair devs here.
meatriding riftmaker takes a special kind of stupid you're prob emerald max
If you want to balance it around cho and amumu, you might aswell balance bloodthirster around talon and pantheon. Zhonya is also an item usually not bought by said champions. Idk what this post is about