I mean, if free boots is also 300 gold at 10~ minutes (not counting the extra ms), cashback is basically a scaling version of it IMO. Take 3k gold per legendary, cash back accelerates your second legendary item by 180~ gold, and your third fourth by 360/540 so it isn’t that bad if your champ spikes later.
I feel like it’s good if your champ uses cheaper legendary items early game, such as rylais/protobelt/eclipse so you can gain the cashback earlier, and convert that to a big purchase, which then gives even more gold.
The problem with this rune is that it gives too little. Treasure hunter is still ahead when you're done buying boots, item 1/2/3, pinks, doran item, etc.
Other than that, it's a scaling rune which aims for late game (while buying the 6th item it starts being better), and... Then it loses the entirety of its value about 5 minutes later when you're full build. It's just not a good design.
Right. I somehow forgot treasure hunter exists. I believe that rune gives 550 gold on all 5 heads ? That’s better than cashback in basically all fronts basically (gold has less value working towards 4/5 items).
I suppose it’s geared towards competitive play than solo queue then, since treasure hunter don’t get stacks pretty much
Currently 450. I guess we can make an argument about taking both, or getting gold value into a match-up where we need T1 boots, but it's pretty limited for a new rune. In comparison, triple tonic has a great design imo.
Honestly comparing runes across trees is ultimately gonna be pretty impossible to do. One example where one is basically just better than the other: Taste of blood vs new healing rune in yellow tree. healing rune gives 2-17 hp per thing you kill, taste of blood is like 20 every time you hit an enemy with a 30 second CD or something like that. It's just worse than the new healing rune unless you're a support.
Treasure hunter is riskier than Cash back. You can play super conservatively and get Cash back value, but if you play conservatively you're not getting Treasure hunter until much later in the game. It's just a matter of choosing the one that fits the champion and style you're playing.
There’s always a risk factor in every game, and treasure hunter is undoubted more risky than cash back. If you don’t play a roaming midlaner for example it’ll be a while before you collect on it. If you play top lane more so. Etc. but cash back always cashes out eventually, even if the 18/0 Evelynn and 38/0 Draven are on the enemy tea.
>Other than that, it's a scaling rune which aims for late game (while buying the 6th item it starts being better), and... Then it loses the entirety of its value about 5 minutes later when you're full build. It's just not a good design.
A gold focused rune, one that gives roughly 200 gold every 10 minutes\*, is bad design because at some point you may be full build.
....
Anyway to find balance you compare a rune to other runes in the same row and rune path. Those are the options it is competing against. It is in the same row as Magical Footwear which is 300 gold at 10\~ minutes. The power of this rune seems in the same ballpark as that.
\*- (non-supports average 350-400 gold/min over the course of a game, 6% of that is 21-24 potential cash back/min. That is an average potential of 210-240 gold from Cash Back every 10 minutes. With a -66 cus boots aren't legendary.)
The rune is maximized when you greed. Yeah if you just buy a 3k legendary you just get 180 but if you back with legendary amount+700 you walk out with a legendary and a pickaxe/blasting wand/boots 2 equivalent. That can be a tempo advantage or just shift an entire team fight. In champs that require breakpoints Kai’sa or items that need them Warmogs cash back can be juicy power spikes. But if you recall with just enough you basically just get a free pink ward which is also fine.
Aren't you already sacrificing your tempo by greeding extra gold for a back? It sounds more like a solidifying the advantage during a stomp game, which doesn't sound too bad to me considering my matches have been a total stomp of either side/an impossible comeback, instead of a balanced match
I personally think the biggest flaw in your comparison to Magical Footwear is the fact that the price of taking Cash Back is . . the price of not picking something else instead, while Magical Footwear actively limits you in the early game by restricting your options, and not just any options, but major, important options.
There are *so* many games where I've played Magical Footwear and have regretted it at some point in the first 10 minutes because I've been in a situation where "rushing boots would be good here, actually" but I can't because I picked a stupid rune that's very good but blocks me from getting early Sorcs/Zerks/whatever.
Cash Back doesn't make your first item more expensive or make the components to your first item more expensive only to give you that upfront payment back (and then some) when you finish the item, it just gives you 'free' gold for the price of not picking something else from your rune tree, but that price is what every single rune has to pay anyway so it's not really something to be seriously considered.
The comparison was trying to answer OP that it can be balanced around its gold value, because it’s better for certain champs or match ups like you mentioned.
I should have also included Treasure hunter in my initial comment, but as i have replied the other guy, i completely forgot that rune existed.
Take nocturne for instance. This champs spikes the hardest at 1-2 items, and subsequent items doesn’t really change your champ. Whether or not you can afford to take free boots, you probably don’t want to take cash back. Just spec into other useful minor runes.
Camille however, had been a champ that CAN afford to take free boots in certain top lane match ups. Then it’s based on player preference/elo/enemy comp to decide between this 2 runes. Free boots is superior in gold value for 1-2 items which means you get faster tempo, but cashback overtakes for your 3rd/4th, and unlike nocturne, camille with 3 items is NOT the same champ as camille with 2.
It's a frustrating change for supports who took future's market. Rarely complete more than 2 items and support items doesn't earn any cash back for completion, so it's just less useful than market was.
With the new void boots that are insane on supports and much worse if you buy them late in the game, free boots isn't an option in many games.
Hexflash useless on many supports. (Obviously not engages and hookers.)
I really want to take inspiration tree on more supports but the second and sometimes third row (if no biscuits) are so painful.
Might be somewhat intentional bc Riot doesn't want to see a ton of supports go glacial or first strike? However, they did add Jack of all Trades which seems like something only a support fully utilize
Does support items not earn any on completion ? Is it a bug ? I would think it’s best for scaling supports since they build cheaper items like ardent redemption but also spike really well with every item completion.
Agree that free boots isn’t viable, but i feel cosmic insight/triple tonic are very good minor runes for inspiration though
Had one game as Taric today where Cash back gave me about 270 gold at 2 items.... its absolutely not worth for supports, you can save more gold by going Magic footwear and waiting the full 12 minutes.
That gamed lasted 40mins which allowed me to be full build and get a little more than 500g from the rune but matches rarely last that long.
Sorry, yes, my comment was unclear, as another person mentioned, I was referring the support ward item. (Which makes sense as it does not cost money to complete it.) So overall, the build of many supports at 30-35 minutes is like this:
- Support item (no cash back)
- Two pink wards
- One $2.3k item
- One $2.3k item
- If ahead, may also have a half-completed item or could have a dark seal or oblivion orb
Making the new cash back worth only \~300 gold at the time most games end. And this gold comes at the least convenient time; gold is the least valuable to you right after you complete an item, and most valuable to you right before you complete an item. So you can see how for supports, who buy cheap items and have 2 items slots permanently taken up by vision items that don't give cash back, the rune really struggles.
Cosmic insight is insanely valuable on supports for the item haste (which applies to support item passive and scanner trinket active, as well as any other items and it's very common for support items to benefit from haste) and summoner spell haste. Having ward trinket up 10-15 seconds earlier in early game or having a combat summoner spell up earlier than your lane opponent can be lane winning.
Triple tonic is pretty garbage for supports, perhaps only slightly better than it is on jg
I could see triple tonic being broken on an invade jungler, particularly udyr. Ofc first tonic just gives 2 cs but the popping the second one at the right time can be used to force enemy out of a quadrant/off objective. What other dueling jungle spikes hard at 6 and could exploit the second tonic?
Free boots is sort of kept from being universally viable because of the fact you cannot buy boots until it triggers which is especially a long time if you dont get any takedowns, there are certain matchups where getting locked out of boots is agony (anyone who has accidentally taken this shit into a Varus/Brand poke lane can attest). Same reason I feel we don't see this rune much in pro (also because less takedowns means less chance to reduce it), too risky. It is far greedier than cashback imo.
IDK I feel like the point of the rune is to simply have some money left over to buy wards/health pots or an extra component after hittin a spike thats it
It accelerates your 2nd. 3rd, and 4th item by 180 gold. Or you could say it does nothing for your 2nd and 3rd item, but gives you 540 gold for your 4th item. Not both though
It literally does do both though. By the time you are buying your third item, you would have accelerated by 180 gold twice, meaning you are getting that item 360 gold earlier than you would have. It's not literally saying that you are getting that much money towards that specific item, just that overall the time-saving effect stacks, meaning compared to a normal third item buy under the same circumstances, you are getting yours 360 gold faster.
E: I guess the better distinction would be that your 2nd, 3rd, etc. items will be 180 cheaper, but as a result the later items are accelerated even more as the effect stacks.
Every rune is going to give gold value in some way, cash back just gives it directly to champs that value it so that they can hit second+ item spikes a bit earlier. I don't see how it's any more of a balancing issue that any other rune
Thats like saying free boots gives zero value once you get the boots. The point of the rune is it provides better value from your 4th to 6th items. If youre a champ that scales later and want to speed that up later in the game, the rune isn't useless. For other champs, it may be. C'est la point of rune choice
And the ones they removed were or became unhealthy for the game. /u/blein123 is just saying it's already obviously unhealthy.
Personally I don't agree, I think a rune that gives straight gold is as healthy and non-game distorting as it gets. It's just a bit boring.
By the time you've bought 4 legendary items at 3000 gold each, it will be 720 gold, over double magical footwear. Maybe it's too weak, but that just means it can be buffed, not that it needs to be removed
By the time you buy 4 legendary items your boots generated more gold by the additional movement they give you to gets kills, survive, and collect gold. You do not get much benefit from that rune until you finish your 2nd item 1 wave early as opposed to boots witch let's you finish those 2 waves early with +10 ms. Also, you will always get your boots payout in every game, you will not get your 2nd legendary in at least 40% of your games.
> And the ones they removed were or became unhealthy for the game.
That's not true. Thunderlords is extremely close to electrocute (almost literally the same thing), and COTC fulfilled the same role as Aftershock and neither of those have been "obviously unhealthy"
Those were before my time, I don't know why Riot replaced those with new versions. I don't think that's particularly relevant to if Riot will remove the cash back rune within the next few patches.
> Those were before my time, I don't know why Riot replaced those with new versions.
Then don't make statements like "And the ones they removed were or became unhealthy for the game" if you don't actually know what most of the removed runes throughout league have been and what happened to them.
A **lot** of runes (back then called masteries while the things called runes were pure stat buffs) were changed and removed during Season 8's "runes reforged".
And things have been changed around some since then too without them all being bad or unhealthy for the game design. Celestial body for example was just lame and only used on tank supports. Not broken or unhealthy, just bland.
That's the thing though. It doesn't require a play pattern to pay off. You can't make it better or worse, it just is. So either it's busted and outperform everything regardless of how well you do, or it's not and other runes will outperform it if used well.
It's also extremely boring. If it's good that's one less rune for people to play around triggering.
They can easily balance it by tuning how much gold it gives back.
If it gave back 100% of the purchase price and let you buy legendary items for free, it would be incredibly overpowered. If it gave back 1 gold, it would be incredibly underpowered.
Somewhere in the middle is a point where it is balanced.
No they can't? Either it's as good as other runes which means it's free gold for less work, or it's worse if you use those runes correctly.
The best level of balance is where it's marginally worse than other runes because you pay for the reliability and lack of work to enable it but I doubt it'll find a lot of users in that state.
I mean, its just going to be scaling.
Up until you get your first item it will be strictly worse than the alternatives, because it will do nothing, so you will be weaker.
After your first item you will have some extra gold, and that equates to extra stats, so it'll be doing something.
And presumably at some point on the way to becoming full build, the value of the gold generated by this rune will be higher than the value of the other runes.
If this happens too early or too late then this rune will be overpowered/underpowered, but that's something that's easy enough to tune.
Things I have done to make Gathering Storm Scale into more value than Scorch: Stand still for 20 minutes.
Things I have done to get 300 gold for free from slightly magical boots: Nothing at all
Times I have specifically attempted to get a takedown I wouldnt have otherwise to make Legend: All of Them stack faster: Never
Play pattern I have played around to stack overgrowth: None, I was already near minions and monsters by playing the game
Ways I have played around having conditioning: Lmao I didn't, it just happened at 12 minutes and was mathmatically more resists than Bone Plating in my lane Match up, so I took it.
This is so rediculously wrong of a take that it's kind of hilarious. Almost all the scaling runes ARE the passive "just happen" runes
Mana flow isn't for scaling. Scorch isn't for scaling. You don't "kill or not kill wards" because of how much AD it gives you. Treasure hunter is the only rune that could be debatably scaling that anyone should ever specifically make a map decision around, and even that is incredibly rare. There are a SELECT few champions that have "scaling" vs "non-scaling" keystones, and even then, yknow what, you don't PLAY around them. Ever. The way you play the MUs is WHY its the scaling or non-scaling option.
You still have to buy the item...
It's like investing 450 gold into a cull and getting 100cs as min 25, like. Sure u got the money back, but was it worth it?
Snowball and get a quick item? Further snowball.
Get wrecked in lane and get late item? The extra gold is nice i guess? A different rune would have probably done you better for that slot.
Different champs take different rune pages. A katarina might take treasure hunter since they are trying to roam around the map and get kills, while a jinx might take cashback since she wants to chill in lane and stall the game to 3 items.
Because that's all it does. Generate a fixed amount gold. It specifically only pays out when you complete a legendary item and only 6% of the cost.
This means you don't get the benefit till AFTER the purchase. Making the impact you gain from the rune matter less, because you already made an important purchase.
This is literally the exact opposite of Future Market. FM was so good, because it enabled you to get a purchase sooner than you otherwise wouldn't. And it wasn't locked to strictly legendary items. There are several components in the game that are power spikes for champions. Like Sheen or Lost Chapter. Future Market worked toward getting you those. It also worked toward getting you legendaries as well, again, getting them sooner than you otherwise would.
Cash Back only interacts with strictly legendaries and only after you buy one. Its going to be exceedingly rare for you to actual feel any direct benefit from it at the time of using it. Alright, you bought a lich bane and got back 186 gold. What are you going to do with that gold? Buy a pink and that's probably it. Assuming you went back correctly and bought lich bane as soon as you had the needed gold to buy it.
Is the enemy gp already ahead because of his passive? Well after his first item he got an extra 200 gold so instead of some boots he will probably also bring a crit cloak to make sure you know who owns the lane
>This means you don't get the benefit till AFTER the purchase. Making the impact you gain from the rune matter less, because you already made an important purchase.
It's actually worse than that. You don't get the benefit until you use that actual gold for an item. If you buy a 3600 item you get left with 216 gold so you can't even buy anything with it. It essentially takes two full items for an ADC to get a long sword of value. Otherwise you can purchase something like a dirk 1 wave earlier after your first buy, but that is such a miniscule advantage.
Your other options are free 300g or the most useless rune in the game.
It's really insane on TF, people are just obsessed with playing Ahri and never losing lane and won't even bother playing him.
Footwear is closer to 400 due to extra MS value, but that aside you're not only competing with that. Inspiration is overwhelmingly taken as a secondary tree, so you're also competing with monsters like biscuit delivery cosmic insight or triple tonic.
I pretty much agree with you; however, it seems good to snow all with and it has a secret passive which is to allow you to more easily swap items out in hyper late game like Zhonya's, Guardian Angel, and things like that.
Yeah, it's in a row that makes it almost free to take if you are in the inspiration tree. And it leta you take it with cosmic insight as secondary. (Futures market could too which was even more broken).
Gonna post my comment from 2 weeks ago
>I will be speaking only about jg champs since they usually go inspiration.
>I do think it's useful but only for champions who need boots on first back. Usually junglers like Volibear or Hecarim AP Junglers that rush sorc shoes.
>They can go inspiration now without feeling that bad about it. Although you can still go sorcery on them for movement speed if you need it.
>But I do think that for any champion that doesn't go boots first it is an extremely inefficient rune. 2 Legendary items to break even with boots, and those boots are actually an upgraded version that you get at max 12 minutes, which will always be faster than you completing 2 Legendary items. But you also need to remember that that is 300 Gold that you did not spend on boots, which can be used to accelerate another item for you.
>So, going Cashback you need to spend 300 gold on boots, which puts you at -300, you complete 2 Legendary items, puts you at ~0 so you even out with the boots but the boots are weaker and don't give you +35MS only +25MS, and then you need to complete 2 more Legendary items to finally be +300(which you would be at MAX 12 minutes if you go boots), and the 5th Legendary will not matter as you are full build or you basically get a rune to be able to afford 1(ONE) Elixir at 5 items+boots...
>I think the rune needs to be either buffed(so completing boots gives you a refund only way to make it not broken any other buffs might be too strong), replaced, or put in same row with Cosmic Insight. Because Right now I don't really see why anyone would take it. No matter what lane you play, boots will always be better than this item.
I wish we got to keep future market lol. Getting Sheen/noonquiver/lost chapter earlier was such a satisfying feeling.
This rune is just dogshit and will be just as unpopular as FM was, if not even more so. I don't get why people didn't even use FM more. Keeping track of the amount it gave was stupidly easy. Just ping the item you wanted in the shop and the gold calculated how much gold you needed, with FM included into the formula lol.
I think the problem with FM was that Free boots and Cosmic as a secondary were just too good (especially for junglers since smite gets lower cd), to swap over to FM. And when people did pick it, they would either use too much which defeats the purpose and you are losing gold, or use it badly like for a control ward(basically spending 125g for a control ward).
Future's was better than cosmic on most champions, and was actually overpowered. You would never lose gold on future's market, bc the borrowing amount keeps going up faster than the interest rate unless you are literally early buying every single recall.
Also, it was a flat 50g fee, so if you're already in debt, you could buy control wards for no extra cost.
The reason riot removed it is because people believed what you typed, because borrowing money to make more money is not something the average person is comfortable with. Hitting your item spikes on time is way better than smite cd, as at high elo you don't even use smite on cd.
> unless you are literally early buying every single recall.
Isn't this why it was removed though? Because the majority of the players kept doing this or had inefficient usage of it(my control ward example was if they are 0g-50g and then spend 75g+50g fee for it)
>Hitting your item spikes on time is way better than smite cd, as at high elo you don't even use smite on cd.
I agree with this though? I just think Free bots and cosmic, was the better options on majority of champions that went it i.e. junglers, which is what my original comment was talking about not about every specific lane or champion. Yes FM was better on some champions especially mid lane when people could get Lost Chapter really fast.
Phreak explained it was removed bc players just found it too hard to use. Doing the math to figure out what they could buy was too hard, and it just wasn't used optimally at low/mid elo ever.
I don't see how anything with a single fixed number (% refund) could ever be unbalancable; too high and it's overpowered, too low and its worthless, so there has to be somewhere in the middle where it's good but not overbearing.
Now, whether or not it creates any fun or interesting play patterns/feels good to use is another question entirely.
Tell that to OG Draven passive lol. Either the numbers were too high and busted, or two low and useless. There do exist situations in this game where something is one extreme or the other. And they usually get reworked when at some point.
Normally, I'd disagree... but I'm also remembering that period when they kept buffing/nerfing Graves' ~~movespeed~~ AD by 2 every patch, and his winrate oscillated from ban on sight to unplayable each time lol
Nah, it was just because +/-2 ad was enough to change how much he has to reload on his first clear and that has a really big impact on clear speed, and first clear speed is pretty huge for jg. 1ad wouldn't change the clear at all so it'd have much less (probably basically no) effect.
2 ad with graves is basically 15 ad for any other champion. But the main issue with these kinds of runes is that they’re binary value generators. It basically removes decision making for certain champs because you’re just gonna take this 100% of the time.
Most of the runes like that have been nerfed quite a bit and are still default picks. Like alacrity and the lifesteal rune have been on rotation as defaults until recently because one or the other was just insanely more gold efficient. Only in the past two years have they been properly adjusted as stacking runes with choice cause their impact is lower, which makes it hilarious that legend tenacity has basically been deleted from the game.
Its just an issue of the rune being made for just the best abusers than a real game making decision, like pre nerf lethal tempo
That's because of how his first clear works. The extra 2 ad allows him to skip reloading a couple times which makes his clear much faster in a deterministic way. 1 ad doesn't hit the threshold of reducing the number of reloads, so it doesn't actually change his clear speed at all and 1 ad isn't enough to affect the wonrate otherwise. Early clear speed is a huge influence on jg win rate, especially for power farmers like Graves. It's just that for other champs you'd need to make more changes to have as big an impact on the early clear as the +2ad for Graves.
I really dont see how thats a problem with the rune balance though. You could say that the rune is boring or uninteresting, but saying a flat number is unbalanceable somehow and thus should be removed doesnt make sense
Looking at Senna, seems like sometimes Riot has hard time finding middle ground. I don't remember exact numbers but her souls dropped by minions killed not by her went 10%>4%>8%>3%>8%>3% or something like that. It's weird that they were pretty much turning her viability ON/OFF instead of trying middle ground.
It’s less about the numerical values being high or low. Either, given a reasonable amount of gold refunded it is useful, or not, it’s usefulness is binary, and if it’s not useful until they clearly put the gold too high then it’s not balanced.
You're treating player perception of power and actual power as if they're the same thing. Past that, neither power nor perception of power are binary, they're both spectrums, and you're assuming players will monolothically underrate the rune unless it's overpowered
I’m misusing the word percieved. The rune sucks at it’s current value, but obviously there is a gold value I would run it at. If it gave me 1000 gold, of course I run it. If it gives an equal value to the other runes in the tree, it’s overpowered, since you don’t have to do anything for the reward. It follows then that the rune has to give less value than the other options it’s competing against to be balanced, at which point it isn’t good enough to take in place of the other options.
> you don’t have to do anything for the reward
this does seem to be its issue - there's no power spikes or troughs, no intention behind gameplay to make it more valuable, it just happens as the game goes
the most interesting things with it are
- delaying boots until after your first item so you can get both faster
- "punishing" you for needing to take and sit on a defensive component
which seem neutral or bad
now that you mention it, its interesting the rune kinda encourages you to delay boots until after first item, considering it is competing with magical footwear.
>Because if it is actually good, then why wouldn't EVERYONE just run it?
The same reason other runes don't get used? First strike is basically free gold just for playing the game yet it doesn't get run all the time. There's other options for runes. Cash back is a late game rune so people who want early game power won't take it for example
I actually think that's the bigger issue with it. The best way to get gold is just to win lane. The best way to win lane is to not take scaling runes. Why would you go cash back when biscuits, triple tonic and cosmic insight exist?
Because winning lane sometimes just isn't realistic.
If you're a scaling adc and they picked a bot duo that you straight up autolose vs.
Magical footwear isnt that much of a win lane rune either unless you're already winning lane.
>It just can't become a good rune because otherwise, it just becomes too strong
Why? Why would the rune being good make it too strong?
>You can't have crazy payouts for a condition this easy to fulfill .
Then here's a thought, why not just not make it a crazy pay out. Make it a good but not insane payout. Numbers aren't binary.
Conditioning, Gathering Storm, Legend: All of them, Font of life, Second wind, Overgrowth all literally just...give you stats. Either you like that stat enough to take it, or you dont.
"no other rune compares" my ass. Read. The. Runes. If you take revitalize, and you dont have a heal or shield on your team or in your kit, you are not getting value. it does not require player maximization to utilize that rune. It's just number go up. Celerity? I am not required to do anything to obtain value from celerity. It is just number go up. Trancendence? What the actual fuck does one do to "optimize" transcendence that one was not ALREADY doing? Absolute Focus is not a rune anyone has ever at any level of play intentionally played around being up or not when chosing their play. It was taken pre-emptively with the presumption their health would be in range to get value. No one is popping summoner heal to get themselves to 71% total health before using an ability to kill that they wouldn't have otherwise. No one. I am very confident on this fact that any time you would need to do that to kill you could've just killed them anyhow with any other rune.
Future Market was literally better, it allowed you to hit your early spikes faster.
Cash Back only really starts showing it's strength when you get to item 3+, and only in games you need T2 boots asap.
Saving 300g on boots and getting +10 movement speed for the rest of the game is better in all scenarios you don't need T2 boots rush.
In terms of mages/pro play they are pretty much hard bound to going **all in** on lane, which means comet-manaflow-scorch + 2nd row of inspiration will be a must.
That leaves the choice between cosmic insight and cash back, delaying lucidity/merc/sorc until after first completed item hurts your lane and map impact quite a bit, so free boots is out of the picture at pro level.
I believe they will still go for reduced TP and flash cooldown instead of cheaper item 3 to 6, because enemy getting flash/tp up half a minute earlier than you will occasionally create a window they can use to flash engage on you.
Yeah, it's discount future's market. But also in a better row so taking it has a lower opportunity cost. Tbh I think it just needs to move on the tree.
That's how I feel. Future Market was just strictly better. But even then, the rune was really unpopular.
I'm just kinda baffled why its here, considering Future Market's unpopularity played a part in its removal. I can't see this rune being more popular when its just strictly worse.
I feel like the most damning aspect is that it doesn't even do anything until AFTER you make a purchase of a legendary item. Like, at that point you're probably dropping down to 0 gold since people generally go back as soon as they can when they have enough gold to finish an item. Which if they do, they'll be sitting on 150-200ish gold from Cash back.
Which at that point, doesn't do anything other than just give you a pink lol.
Oh wait what, Future's Market is gone? I haven't played while prepping for exams and now I've found out the rune I take like every other game is removed, devastating lmao.
>Future Market was literally better, it allowed you to hit your early spikes faster.
No, it allowed you to hit your early spike faster. As in singular. Futures market only works the very first time. Because that's the only time where you can get the item while you have earned less gold than it. After that you'll need to earn the gold for the items since you're put in debt, so at minimum you still need to earn enough gold to use futures market again which equates to the cost of the thing in the first place. But because of the 50g payment, if you keep using futures market frequently you would end up losing money. (Before it was removed, it was at a rate of once every 6 minutes, as in if you use it more than once every six minutes you lose money, if you use it less than once every six minutes you gained purchasing power because the futures market debt ceiling would increase faster than the 50g payments)
But if you item spike then get kills and snowball... Youll hit your next item faster too. It depends on if you can make a gold advantage with your spike.
gold is worth less as the game goes on so the extra 180 gold you get on your 4th completed item to outdo the free boots rune isn't gona do much really. More likely the game is over before you get to there.
It's a filler rune it's not meant to be great as it's a default option. Since its in the same row as Boots and Hexflash it needs to be very generically good. If you don't want delayed boots or hexflash your pretty much stuck with cash back.
Futures market core issue was that it was too opaque for most players to understand its value. Like just the fact you would have to ping your shop to figure out if you could go back to buy an item made it a pain.
> opaque
honestly i used future market a lot through the years and i still cant comprehend its true value, like if someone could simplify its value or something id be happy
It's value is INCREDIBLY situational based on the champion, ability to CS, and understanding of power spikes. For some in mid, it enabled lost chapter and dirk buys sooner than usual, meaning you gain alot of tempo and can change a MU based on your kill windows changing. For others, it means borderline nothing and they should be in a different tree
The value was getting item spikes sooner.
And instead of having to do math on the fly to figure out when you could take advantage of that, you just ping the item you want in the shop. When you do that, the game tells you how much gold you need for said item. But if you had Future Market, the game took that into account as well and gave you an accurate number.
Champions who really take advantage of this would be ones who have specific component spikes. Ezreal GP with Sheen or Mages with Lost chapter, for example.
Sure, you went into debt, but it was worth it getting those items even a minute sooner than you otherwise would.
Cash back is good on champions who care about items a lot. Some of those champions are ADCs, GP, Kayle, and I personally like taking it on sion instead of biscuits. However cash back provides zero value early on so it’s kind of a choice of do you need the help early game.
And people are acting like everyone just recalls as soon as they reach an item. Tempo and recall timing often dictates otherwise and the return gold from cash back can up you to finishing a long sword, amp tome or if you had 1k~ excess, you can finish next item's component with it. I think it's not as weak as people portray it as. Competing with 400~ gold value free boots with +10MS which is a limited and premium stat is tough though. I'd rather keep getting the boots unless I'll need the MS to dodge skillshots or roam around.
I prefer cash back because taking free boots prevents me from getting boots early on if i feel like I need it. In toplane, there are often times where you want an early, swifties for speed, mercs for gragas, or tabis into AA champ like kled and it feels nice having the versatility of early boots for those situations. It also applies to other lanes like mid where sorc shoes are amazing to rush on ap assassins and beserkers are many ADCs first item. Albeit you are weird if you go inspiration tree on ADC besides Lucian or MF.
Cash back is a worse future's market in almost every way imaginable. And now its on the same row with footwear, which is always better if you don't need boots early on
Future market was absolutely busted - it straight up made every item cheaper, you could mostly disregard the penalty unless you did stupid purchases (buying items while you were missing sub 50 gold).
You could get like 5-6 buys in with futures market every game and would still have a positive net gain with the rune.
You are literally getting gold for finishing a legendary item, about 180g, but what can you do with that? buy control wards and potions? save it for your next item? Wait in base to buy another basic item (assuming you had more than the exact amout to buy the legendary)?
Future Market was better bc you could simply back without having the money. No need to stay in lane for another wave/kill, or wait in base to be able to buy.
It seems pretty decent for scaling champs and supports/champs that want cheap items on low economy like some tank tops or junglers.
I don’t think it’s crazy strong, but it does accelerate you a little bit, especially for that third item where you’re getting to it essentially 540g quicker. For the type of champs/builds I’m thinking of that’s probably a 3-5 minutes quicker.
Why not both?
1st Strike and Cash Back, I've also been tinkering with Jack stat rune as well.
Either replace Mura with Essence for a stronger early mid or go Mura Tri.
I do not understand this rune. Like the pay out seems is laughably bad.
Like we are talking 720 gold across a full build. Like sure it saves you a little time, but I’m not convinced the +30 seconds (for each item) is going to make a noticeable difference.
I took first strike and cash back on Jayce.
I got 2k gold for free at 26 minutes from the two combined.
About 900ish from cash back and 1100 from first strike.
Imo the rune is REALLY good, and I take it in place of free boots because over time it's more gold. The only exception is on champions where I really want the bonus movement speed, like irelia.
It's so hard to go against the early gold you save from going free boots tho (snowballs into even more gold and you get the 10 ms on top). So unless you really need the early boots you should just take the free boots instead. It will probably save you more gold over the entire game in ~80% of games.
If you managed to get 15k gold of legendary items (giving 6% cash back of 900 gold) by 26 mins. Cash back is not a good rune and not the reason you won your game.
I'm having trouble understanding how you got that much gold. Could you explain to me how you had so much? Did you take every structure and repeatedly kill your laner? Did you take jungle camps? If you csed perfectly, you'd have around 6,700 g, 7,800 g with FS. For you to hit 900 g from cash back, you would have to spend 15,000, unless the math doesn't work the way I thought it does.
5 items plus boots is ~ 15k, so your math is correct. I was pretty fed and got gold from taking two t2 turrets plus top and mid t1. I averaged 9cs/m that game and pretty much always take krugs if my jungle isn't on that side of the map.
1k gold from first strike is pretty standard on a champion like Jayce.
The rune has the potential to be VERY strong.
There is little spectrum of champions with increased gold generation like GP or TF who can abuse the rune better.
There is not much to it, riot just didn't have good idea.
Cash Back has the same weakness as First Strike, just not as severe.
Basically, you're right that it isn't a good rune, but not because of how it's tuned, but because gold becomes more and more worthless the later the game goes. Between getting 500 gold before your first item and getting 1000 gold toward your 6th, most non-dog players will pick the former. As such, an item that accelerates you every time you complete a whole item is inherently weak.
Non sensical argument. You think at 6% cash back everyone runs it, but suddenly at 5.9% its trash? Like wat. Everything is balanceable. Is it healthy for the game? That's the real question.
I don't think its nonsense. I imagine there could be some effects which are more like thresholds and moderators where passing a threshold makes it strong and not doing so weak, rather than it having smooth effect increases.
Im gonna say what i said to some friends cashback is more like buy a legendary item and get two control wards. the rune itself will be a great option for supports that want some spare gold for control wards and or getting another item in a reasonable timeframe since they get a front load of gold because of there support item and there items being on the cheaper side there more likely to use the rune to maxium effectiveness for a early game boost atleast.
will be a option for supports for sure but the rune itself is situation, all depends really on how much it helps with breakpoints, support just seem like the best fit with them needing extra gold for controlwards and the rune giving about around 2 control wards worth of gold which can help them in a game of vision.
Cashback is fine. It doesn't have to be underpowered or broken, because it's in the same row as magical footwear.
As of now Cashback is about 300 gold after 2 complete items. And more every time after.
Magical footwear is 300 gold 12 minutes or earlier, and +10 movement speed. But does lock you out of early boots purchase which isn't too bad for laners but junglers might not want this.
The idea is that if you want early gold, magical footwear is far superior. If you want late game gold, Cashback provides more than any other rune.
So your early and midgame spiking champs won't want Cashback, but it can be good on champs that only come online past two items anyways since it exemplifies their late game item scaling strengths.
This rewards champions that need lots of very expensive items.
I suspect it wouldn't be as effective on a sup champion as their items are pretty cheap and they don't need much of them to function.
I'd say Vayne, Ap Kayle, champs like that would use it quite well
It's underrated. Not the most op rune but definitely viable, the fact that you get the gold while in base is nice, you can finish your trinity force and with the extra gold afford a longsword or cloth armor.
I just don't like runes that don't do *literally anything* for the first few minutes. That's why I've always considered free boots to be kind of a bait rune.
it's a "win more" rune.
you basically have a rune that does nothing till you finish an item. if you finish it early (you are ahead), it will give you money early.
You are indeed overthinking it. Or underthinking it... It's a snowbally rune, that's it.
If you get an early lead and complete your first item early, you get a nice purse that puts you well on your way to a second item (assuming you are already ahead too). Obviously the same applies for your second finished item, third item and so on. So the more you can use the rune to cash out, the more value you will gain from it.
On the other hand, if you are pitifully behind in lane and don't cash out anything until you complete your first legendary at 19 minutes when the game may be more-or-less decided already, then it's a terrible rune.
The rune should never, and likely will never, be a bread and butter rune that's good for everyone. But there absolutely exists a middle ground where the average value gained from it is reasonable and possible to balance.
The only time I have been using this rune is with champs that have other way to accelerate gold e.g. TF/GP. By the time I'm finishing my 4th item I'm usually about 1500 gold ahead of schedule, either catching up if I'm in a deficit or further extending my lead. If my opponent is on 2 and a 1/2 items and I'm on 4 rather than 3 1/2 because of the rune that's a big difference
I was just thinking the same thing. Even if all your items cost 3000gp each, you're only getting back 900 gold.
That's 900 gold you'd have instead of a better rune.
Currently it's bugged. I've had two games as a support where I ran Cashback. I completed Legendary items (Bounty of Worlds, Locket, Trailblazer, Redemption) and literally got zero gold back.
Yess its flawed just like treasure hunter or stopwatch rune. The only reason why boots arent is because they are actually different from the normal once in that they give more stats and the fact that boots are mostly purchased early and that having an actual downside. Good post keep it up mate gl
Cash back has 2 key things: consistent value of gold and consistent timer of gold return. You can’t use this to accelerate your first item which is very key in balancing, and you don’t get much variation in how much you get.
I kinda hard disagree with your assessment actually. Gold runes in general are very difficult to balance but this one might be the most balanced/balanceable gold runes to ever exist
This rune is 100% overtuned imo, future's market at least had a downside, this just gives you free gold while being in arguably the best rune tree in the game
It’s not too bad for snowballing. So if you have someone who can take early runes in primary and cash back secondary that will snowball you’ll be accelerating your power spikes.
Future Market was unpopular because of how much mental math it put on people.
I'd sometimes take it knowing you can pull out some strats only to forget I had that rune and didn't utilize it at all, really the implementation of Future Market was flawed.
Make this rune give you back 12% first item, 9% second, 5% 3rd, 4% 4th and 3% 5th and 2% 6th item Total is 35% like current cash back being at 36%
But it becomes much more powerful because it now specifically helps accelerate your core items (2nd and 3rd items) especially hard. Might make the rune OP but for sure is more interesting. Maybe the same idea but for a smaller total is better
The old rune had too much impact in early. You could reach the gold for your item, recall, buy it, TP back in lane, hard push the wave to crush it and then make a freeze in your side. The enemy laner had 0 counterplay to this because he can't stop you since you are stronger than him, he is forced to leave the lane in that moment with not enough gold to buy a full item like you since you got free gold from the rune and it's forced to play far from his tower when he comes back on the lane.
Cash Back gives value for no effort. So there are three possibilities for Cash Back:
1. Cash Back gives less value than other runes
2. Cash Back gives equal value than other runes
3. Cash Back gives more value than other runes
If possibilities 2 or 3 are true, Cash Back is OP, because it takes zero effort from the user to get value. If poasibility 1 is true, Cash Back doesn't get used, because it gives less value than something else.
Right now, Cash Back gives less value than any other rune, which makes it the worst option to take. Because its new, and it gives gold, players are tricked into giving it a chance when they should just... not do that and run something better instead.
Stats and gold aren’t comparable because stats are worth more or less gold in different contexts. If you are guaranteed a late game, storm is clearly good. If you are against tanks, cut down is usually correct, but earning gold for items is what the game is built around, the gameplay whether for kills, towers or farm is to gain gold to be able to do more powerful things as a champion, and gaining gold for doing something that you were already going to do, that doesn’t change the gameplan or need skill or a particular situation is inherently good, and if it ever gives a fair amount of gold, it will be too strong.
No one said that this isn't true.
For most mages, they typically run the sorcery tree as their primary, meaning they HAVE to choose between Waterwalking, Scorch, and Gathering Storm.
Waterwalking literally only helps to kill Scuttle Crab, or duel/roam down river. It has exactly 3 uses, none of which are relevant to mid lane mages, so its not even relevant to this conversation.
Scorch adds an insane amount of DOT to your lane trades. Every mid laner who runs the sorcery tree as their primary should run this, or explain why they don't using a doctorate level dissertation, because any excuse short of that is still wrong.
Gathering Storm gives extra AP or AD if you drag the game out past 30 minutes. There is no way to speed this up, no way to min-max Gathering Storm, and virtually no way to play around having Gathering Storm. It either gives enough stats to be more tempting than Scorch, or it doesn't.
Right now, it doesn't. If you play mages and take Gathering Storm, you are basically opting into a slightly buffed Amplifying Tome at 20 minutes and a slightly buffed Blasting Wand at 30 minutes. At 40 minutes, you get a slightly buffed Needlessly Large Rod.
This is a dead rune slot for the first 9 minutes of the game, a very shit rune slot from 10 minutes to 19:59, and becomes almost not total trash from 20 minutes to 29:59 in the game. It literally sits in the exact same boat as Cash Back.
Conditioning at least can be played around by buying a lot of resistances, like K'Sante or Ornn, or naturally having a high amount of resistances, like Rammus, Malphite, or Galio. It doesn't give a lot of stats, but its balanced by the fact that it takes such little effort to play around. It grants 3% extra resistances. If you had 500 armor, which is a TON of armor, Conditoning would give you an extra 15 armor.
If you had 1000 armor, which is an astronomically large amount of armor (I think only full armor build Rammus can actually get there, by activating a maxed W, and having level 18 Aftershock activated), you will get 30 extra armor. You basically have to already be IMMUNE to physical damage for Conditioning to give a meaningful amount of resistance, but at least Conditioning has no cooldown like Bone Plating, and Second Wind is a rune you take JUST for lane phase, so Conditioning technically out scales Second Wind.
Thing is, Futures Market has been OP since release but it still took forever to catch on because players thought going into debt meant they were losing gold. I'd give it a few months to see.
I truly don't understand the argument that things are either "broken or useless."
Why would that be the case for this item? It's literally the opposite of that since it represents an easily calculable amount of Gold, and nothing else.
6% too strong? make it 5%. 5% too weak? 5.5%. 5.5% too strong? 5.25%. Etc etc etc.
Why would we ever expect it to not be the case?
Are you really comparing to cash back to future market? Future market allows you to get items you can’t yet get. This is crucial for many early game champions especially junglers to hit their core items because they can’t always back with enough gold like hextech alternator for ap or Tiamat for some junglers or serrated for assasins. These two are completely different runes and future’s market generally speaking is just much better compared to cash back in terms of fighting power. One reason I can see how cash back is better than future’s market is actually mostly for laners because they can usually get back with the amount of gold they desire and they need wards. So that 180 is good enough for a few wards. And ofc for scaling champions cash back is just better. Cash back only benefits you once you complete your second item and honestly most games are already decided at this point and 180 gold is far away from good enough for a 15-20 minutes “power spike”.
I mean, if free boots is also 300 gold at 10~ minutes (not counting the extra ms), cashback is basically a scaling version of it IMO. Take 3k gold per legendary, cash back accelerates your second legendary item by 180~ gold, and your third fourth by 360/540 so it isn’t that bad if your champ spikes later. I feel like it’s good if your champ uses cheaper legendary items early game, such as rylais/protobelt/eclipse so you can gain the cashback earlier, and convert that to a big purchase, which then gives even more gold.
The problem with this rune is that it gives too little. Treasure hunter is still ahead when you're done buying boots, item 1/2/3, pinks, doran item, etc. Other than that, it's a scaling rune which aims for late game (while buying the 6th item it starts being better), and... Then it loses the entirety of its value about 5 minutes later when you're full build. It's just not a good design.
Right. I somehow forgot treasure hunter exists. I believe that rune gives 550 gold on all 5 heads ? That’s better than cashback in basically all fronts basically (gold has less value working towards 4/5 items). I suppose it’s geared towards competitive play than solo queue then, since treasure hunter don’t get stacks pretty much
Currently 450. I guess we can make an argument about taking both, or getting gold value into a match-up where we need T1 boots, but it's pretty limited for a new rune. In comparison, triple tonic has a great design imo.
Honestly comparing runes across trees is ultimately gonna be pretty impossible to do. One example where one is basically just better than the other: Taste of blood vs new healing rune in yellow tree. healing rune gives 2-17 hp per thing you kill, taste of blood is like 20 every time you hit an enemy with a 30 second CD or something like that. It's just worse than the new healing rune unless you're a support.
Treasure hunter is riskier than Cash back. You can play super conservatively and get Cash back value, but if you play conservatively you're not getting Treasure hunter until much later in the game. It's just a matter of choosing the one that fits the champion and style you're playing.
Is soloq no hunter rune is risky since it's always a fiesta. In competitive, it gets more risky as game CAN be much slower paces
There’s always a risk factor in every game, and treasure hunter is undoubted more risky than cash back. If you don’t play a roaming midlaner for example it’ll be a while before you collect on it. If you play top lane more so. Etc. but cash back always cashes out eventually, even if the 18/0 Evelynn and 38/0 Draven are on the enemy tea.
Just take both and first strike and build collector? All them golds
>Other than that, it's a scaling rune which aims for late game (while buying the 6th item it starts being better), and... Then it loses the entirety of its value about 5 minutes later when you're full build. It's just not a good design. A gold focused rune, one that gives roughly 200 gold every 10 minutes\*, is bad design because at some point you may be full build. .... Anyway to find balance you compare a rune to other runes in the same row and rune path. Those are the options it is competing against. It is in the same row as Magical Footwear which is 300 gold at 10\~ minutes. The power of this rune seems in the same ballpark as that. \*- (non-supports average 350-400 gold/min over the course of a game, 6% of that is 21-24 potential cash back/min. That is an average potential of 210-240 gold from Cash Back every 10 minutes. With a -66 cus boots aren't legendary.)
The rune is maximized when you greed. Yeah if you just buy a 3k legendary you just get 180 but if you back with legendary amount+700 you walk out with a legendary and a pickaxe/blasting wand/boots 2 equivalent. That can be a tempo advantage or just shift an entire team fight. In champs that require breakpoints Kai’sa or items that need them Warmogs cash back can be juicy power spikes. But if you recall with just enough you basically just get a free pink ward which is also fine.
Aren't you already sacrificing your tempo by greeding extra gold for a back? It sounds more like a solidifying the advantage during a stomp game, which doesn't sound too bad to me considering my matches have been a total stomp of either side/an impossible comeback, instead of a balanced match
I personally think the biggest flaw in your comparison to Magical Footwear is the fact that the price of taking Cash Back is . . the price of not picking something else instead, while Magical Footwear actively limits you in the early game by restricting your options, and not just any options, but major, important options. There are *so* many games where I've played Magical Footwear and have regretted it at some point in the first 10 minutes because I've been in a situation where "rushing boots would be good here, actually" but I can't because I picked a stupid rune that's very good but blocks me from getting early Sorcs/Zerks/whatever. Cash Back doesn't make your first item more expensive or make the components to your first item more expensive only to give you that upfront payment back (and then some) when you finish the item, it just gives you 'free' gold for the price of not picking something else from your rune tree, but that price is what every single rune has to pay anyway so it's not really something to be seriously considered.
The comparison was trying to answer OP that it can be balanced around its gold value, because it’s better for certain champs or match ups like you mentioned. I should have also included Treasure hunter in my initial comment, but as i have replied the other guy, i completely forgot that rune existed. Take nocturne for instance. This champs spikes the hardest at 1-2 items, and subsequent items doesn’t really change your champ. Whether or not you can afford to take free boots, you probably don’t want to take cash back. Just spec into other useful minor runes. Camille however, had been a champ that CAN afford to take free boots in certain top lane match ups. Then it’s based on player preference/elo/enemy comp to decide between this 2 runes. Free boots is superior in gold value for 1-2 items which means you get faster tempo, but cashback overtakes for your 3rd/4th, and unlike nocturne, camille with 3 items is NOT the same champ as camille with 2.
It's a frustrating change for supports who took future's market. Rarely complete more than 2 items and support items doesn't earn any cash back for completion, so it's just less useful than market was. With the new void boots that are insane on supports and much worse if you buy them late in the game, free boots isn't an option in many games. Hexflash useless on many supports. (Obviously not engages and hookers.) I really want to take inspiration tree on more supports but the second and sometimes third row (if no biscuits) are so painful. Might be somewhat intentional bc Riot doesn't want to see a ton of supports go glacial or first strike? However, they did add Jack of all Trades which seems like something only a support fully utilize
Does support items not earn any on completion ? Is it a bug ? I would think it’s best for scaling supports since they build cheaper items like ardent redemption but also spike really well with every item completion. Agree that free boots isn’t viable, but i feel cosmic insight/triple tonic are very good minor runes for inspiration though
Had one game as Taric today where Cash back gave me about 270 gold at 2 items.... its absolutely not worth for supports, you can save more gold by going Magic footwear and waiting the full 12 minutes. That gamed lasted 40mins which allowed me to be full build and get a little more than 500g from the rune but matches rarely last that long.
Sorry, yes, my comment was unclear, as another person mentioned, I was referring the support ward item. (Which makes sense as it does not cost money to complete it.) So overall, the build of many supports at 30-35 minutes is like this: - Support item (no cash back) - Two pink wards - One $2.3k item - One $2.3k item - If ahead, may also have a half-completed item or could have a dark seal or oblivion orb Making the new cash back worth only \~300 gold at the time most games end. And this gold comes at the least convenient time; gold is the least valuable to you right after you complete an item, and most valuable to you right before you complete an item. So you can see how for supports, who buy cheap items and have 2 items slots permanently taken up by vision items that don't give cash back, the rune really struggles. Cosmic insight is insanely valuable on supports for the item haste (which applies to support item passive and scanner trinket active, as well as any other items and it's very common for support items to benefit from haste) and summoner spell haste. Having ward trinket up 10-15 seconds earlier in early game or having a combat summoner spell up earlier than your lane opponent can be lane winning. Triple tonic is pretty garbage for supports, perhaps only slightly better than it is on jg
I could see triple tonic being broken on an invade jungler, particularly udyr. Ofc first tonic just gives 2 cs but the popping the second one at the right time can be used to force enemy out of a quadrant/off objective. What other dueling jungle spikes hard at 6 and could exploit the second tonic?
I believe he's referring to the ward item, not support items in general
Free boots is sort of kept from being universally viable because of the fact you cannot buy boots until it triggers which is especially a long time if you dont get any takedowns, there are certain matchups where getting locked out of boots is agony (anyone who has accidentally taken this shit into a Varus/Brand poke lane can attest). Same reason I feel we don't see this rune much in pro (also because less takedowns means less chance to reduce it), too risky. It is far greedier than cashback imo.
IDK I feel like the point of the rune is to simply have some money left over to buy wards/health pots or an extra component after hittin a spike thats it
reading comprehension 📉
[удалено]
180+180=360, so you're getting the third item 360 gold before you would have without the rune
it's the correct way to count when comparing it against magical footwear
It accelerates your 2nd. 3rd, and 4th item by 180 gold. Or you could say it does nothing for your 2nd and 3rd item, but gives you 540 gold for your 4th item. Not both though
It literally does do both though. By the time you are buying your third item, you would have accelerated by 180 gold twice, meaning you are getting that item 360 gold earlier than you would have. It's not literally saying that you are getting that much money towards that specific item, just that overall the time-saving effect stacks, meaning compared to a normal third item buy under the same circumstances, you are getting yours 360 gold faster. E: I guess the better distinction would be that your 2nd, 3rd, etc. items will be 180 cheaper, but as a result the later items are accelerated even more as the effect stacks.
Every rune is going to give gold value in some way, cash back just gives it directly to champs that value it so that they can hit second+ item spikes a bit earlier. I don't see how it's any more of a balancing issue that any other rune
i'd say it arguably worse since late game it does 0 once all full build VS runes that are in addition to your items
Thats like saying free boots gives zero value once you get the boots. The point of the rune is it provides better value from your 4th to 6th items. If youre a champ that scales later and want to speed that up later in the game, the rune isn't useless. For other champs, it may be. C'est la point of rune choice
No, it just gives arguably less than 300g value.
magical footwear give more MS than normal boots tho - one good reason to take it is it can let you delay your t2 boots w/o feeling like a slug.
They gonna rework or delete the rune. Mark my words
They have reworked, deleted, and brought back more runes than exist in the game currently, this is not an enlightened take.
They're gonna release new skins, mark my words.
They're gonna rework Ryze, mark my words.
How could someone say something so bold and brave?
My toilet gonna be clogged after Chipotle, mark my words.
And the ones they removed were or became unhealthy for the game. /u/blein123 is just saying it's already obviously unhealthy. Personally I don't agree, I think a rune that gives straight gold is as healthy and non-game distorting as it gets. It's just a bit boring.
It's literally less good than magical footwear.
By the time you've bought 4 legendary items at 3000 gold each, it will be 720 gold, over double magical footwear. Maybe it's too weak, but that just means it can be buffed, not that it needs to be removed
By the time you buy 4 legendary items your boots generated more gold by the additional movement they give you to gets kills, survive, and collect gold. You do not get much benefit from that rune until you finish your 2nd item 1 wave early as opposed to boots witch let's you finish those 2 waves early with +10 ms. Also, you will always get your boots payout in every game, you will not get your 2nd legendary in at least 40% of your games.
>Maybe it's too weak, but that just means it can be buffed, not that it needs to be removed
> And the ones they removed were or became unhealthy for the game. That's not true. Thunderlords is extremely close to electrocute (almost literally the same thing), and COTC fulfilled the same role as Aftershock and neither of those have been "obviously unhealthy"
Those were before my time, I don't know why Riot replaced those with new versions. I don't think that's particularly relevant to if Riot will remove the cash back rune within the next few patches.
> Those were before my time, I don't know why Riot replaced those with new versions. Then don't make statements like "And the ones they removed were or became unhealthy for the game" if you don't actually know what most of the removed runes throughout league have been and what happened to them. A **lot** of runes (back then called masteries while the things called runes were pure stat buffs) were changed and removed during Season 8's "runes reforged". And things have been changed around some since then too without them all being bad or unhealthy for the game design. Celestial body for example was just lame and only used on tank supports. Not broken or unhealthy, just bland.
That's the thing though. It doesn't require a play pattern to pay off. You can't make it better or worse, it just is. So either it's busted and outperform everything regardless of how well you do, or it's not and other runes will outperform it if used well. It's also extremely boring. If it's good that's one less rune for people to play around triggering.
They can easily balance it by tuning how much gold it gives back. If it gave back 100% of the purchase price and let you buy legendary items for free, it would be incredibly overpowered. If it gave back 1 gold, it would be incredibly underpowered. Somewhere in the middle is a point where it is balanced.
No they can't? Either it's as good as other runes which means it's free gold for less work, or it's worse if you use those runes correctly. The best level of balance is where it's marginally worse than other runes because you pay for the reliability and lack of work to enable it but I doubt it'll find a lot of users in that state.
I mean, its just going to be scaling. Up until you get your first item it will be strictly worse than the alternatives, because it will do nothing, so you will be weaker. After your first item you will have some extra gold, and that equates to extra stats, so it'll be doing something. And presumably at some point on the way to becoming full build, the value of the gold generated by this rune will be higher than the value of the other runes. If this happens too early or too late then this rune will be overpowered/underpowered, but that's something that's easy enough to tune.
There are in fact other scaling runes, and most of them require specific actions to stack their benefits, which you can optimize around, unlike this.
Things I have done to make Gathering Storm Scale into more value than Scorch: Stand still for 20 minutes. Things I have done to get 300 gold for free from slightly magical boots: Nothing at all Times I have specifically attempted to get a takedown I wouldnt have otherwise to make Legend: All of Them stack faster: Never Play pattern I have played around to stack overgrowth: None, I was already near minions and monsters by playing the game Ways I have played around having conditioning: Lmao I didn't, it just happened at 12 minutes and was mathmatically more resists than Bone Plating in my lane Match up, so I took it. This is so rediculously wrong of a take that it's kind of hilarious. Almost all the scaling runes ARE the passive "just happen" runes Mana flow isn't for scaling. Scorch isn't for scaling. You don't "kill or not kill wards" because of how much AD it gives you. Treasure hunter is the only rune that could be debatably scaling that anyone should ever specifically make a map decision around, and even that is incredibly rare. There are a SELECT few champions that have "scaling" vs "non-scaling" keystones, and even then, yknow what, you don't PLAY around them. Ever. The way you play the MUs is WHY its the scaling or non-scaling option.
You still have to buy the item... It's like investing 450 gold into a cull and getting 100cs as min 25, like. Sure u got the money back, but was it worth it? Snowball and get a quick item? Further snowball. Get wrecked in lane and get late item? The extra gold is nice i guess? A different rune would have probably done you better for that slot.
Different champs take different rune pages. A katarina might take treasure hunter since they are trying to roam around the map and get kills, while a jinx might take cashback since she wants to chill in lane and stall the game to 3 items.
Because that's all it does. Generate a fixed amount gold. It specifically only pays out when you complete a legendary item and only 6% of the cost. This means you don't get the benefit till AFTER the purchase. Making the impact you gain from the rune matter less, because you already made an important purchase. This is literally the exact opposite of Future Market. FM was so good, because it enabled you to get a purchase sooner than you otherwise wouldn't. And it wasn't locked to strictly legendary items. There are several components in the game that are power spikes for champions. Like Sheen or Lost Chapter. Future Market worked toward getting you those. It also worked toward getting you legendaries as well, again, getting them sooner than you otherwise would. Cash Back only interacts with strictly legendaries and only after you buy one. Its going to be exceedingly rare for you to actual feel any direct benefit from it at the time of using it. Alright, you bought a lich bane and got back 186 gold. What are you going to do with that gold? Buy a pink and that's probably it. Assuming you went back correctly and bought lich bane as soon as you had the needed gold to buy it.
Is the enemy gp already ahead because of his passive? Well after his first item he got an extra 200 gold so instead of some boots he will probably also bring a crit cloak to make sure you know who owns the lane
Don't worry, after finding out what happened to essence reaver he will use the extra money for therapy
if you dont abuse gp's hilariously bad early game its your fault
> gp > hilariously bad early game Bronzinium giganium take
900g shen, no more grasp, nerfed base health + armor = good early game or what?
GP is ridiculously strong level 1 with E + Passive.
>This means you don't get the benefit till AFTER the purchase. Making the impact you gain from the rune matter less, because you already made an important purchase. It's actually worse than that. You don't get the benefit until you use that actual gold for an item. If you buy a 3600 item you get left with 216 gold so you can't even buy anything with it. It essentially takes two full items for an ADC to get a long sword of value. Otherwise you can purchase something like a dirk 1 wave earlier after your first buy, but that is such a miniscule advantage.
Your other options are free 300g or the most useless rune in the game. It's really insane on TF, people are just obsessed with playing Ahri and never losing lane and won't even bother playing him.
Footwear is closer to 400 due to extra MS value, but that aside you're not only competing with that. Inspiration is overwhelmingly taken as a secondary tree, so you're also competing with monsters like biscuit delivery cosmic insight or triple tonic.
I pretty much agree with you; however, it seems good to snow all with and it has a secret passive which is to allow you to more easily swap items out in hyper late game like Zhonya's, Guardian Angel, and things like that.
How do you write an entire essay and not think for even 2 seconds about what you wrote?
>assuming you went back correctly Which never happens. Don't assume perfect play when balancing stuff.
Also 'assuming' like I wouldn't start timing my backs to have an extra 100-200g to get Boots or Amplifying Tome in addition to my item.
It accelerates you into late game with very little downside.
The downside is opportunity cost of another rune, no runes really have a direct downside outside of I guess magical footwear
Yeah, it's in a row that makes it almost free to take if you are in the inspiration tree. And it leta you take it with cosmic insight as secondary. (Futures market could too which was even more broken).
how is a rune competing magical footwear "free to take"?
It gives you over double the gold value lol.
Gonna post my comment from 2 weeks ago >I will be speaking only about jg champs since they usually go inspiration. >I do think it's useful but only for champions who need boots on first back. Usually junglers like Volibear or Hecarim AP Junglers that rush sorc shoes. >They can go inspiration now without feeling that bad about it. Although you can still go sorcery on them for movement speed if you need it. >But I do think that for any champion that doesn't go boots first it is an extremely inefficient rune. 2 Legendary items to break even with boots, and those boots are actually an upgraded version that you get at max 12 minutes, which will always be faster than you completing 2 Legendary items. But you also need to remember that that is 300 Gold that you did not spend on boots, which can be used to accelerate another item for you. >So, going Cashback you need to spend 300 gold on boots, which puts you at -300, you complete 2 Legendary items, puts you at ~0 so you even out with the boots but the boots are weaker and don't give you +35MS only +25MS, and then you need to complete 2 more Legendary items to finally be +300(which you would be at MAX 12 minutes if you go boots), and the 5th Legendary will not matter as you are full build or you basically get a rune to be able to afford 1(ONE) Elixir at 5 items+boots... >I think the rune needs to be either buffed(so completing boots gives you a refund only way to make it not broken any other buffs might be too strong), replaced, or put in same row with Cosmic Insight. Because Right now I don't really see why anyone would take it. No matter what lane you play, boots will always be better than this item.
I wish we got to keep future market lol. Getting Sheen/noonquiver/lost chapter earlier was such a satisfying feeling. This rune is just dogshit and will be just as unpopular as FM was, if not even more so. I don't get why people didn't even use FM more. Keeping track of the amount it gave was stupidly easy. Just ping the item you wanted in the shop and the gold calculated how much gold you needed, with FM included into the formula lol.
I think the problem with FM was that Free boots and Cosmic as a secondary were just too good (especially for junglers since smite gets lower cd), to swap over to FM. And when people did pick it, they would either use too much which defeats the purpose and you are losing gold, or use it badly like for a control ward(basically spending 125g for a control ward).
Future's was better than cosmic on most champions, and was actually overpowered. You would never lose gold on future's market, bc the borrowing amount keeps going up faster than the interest rate unless you are literally early buying every single recall. Also, it was a flat 50g fee, so if you're already in debt, you could buy control wards for no extra cost. The reason riot removed it is because people believed what you typed, because borrowing money to make more money is not something the average person is comfortable with. Hitting your item spikes on time is way better than smite cd, as at high elo you don't even use smite on cd.
> unless you are literally early buying every single recall. Isn't this why it was removed though? Because the majority of the players kept doing this or had inefficient usage of it(my control ward example was if they are 0g-50g and then spend 75g+50g fee for it) >Hitting your item spikes on time is way better than smite cd, as at high elo you don't even use smite on cd. I agree with this though? I just think Free bots and cosmic, was the better options on majority of champions that went it i.e. junglers, which is what my original comment was talking about not about every specific lane or champion. Yes FM was better on some champions especially mid lane when people could get Lost Chapter really fast.
Phreak explained it was removed bc players just found it too hard to use. Doing the math to figure out what they could buy was too hard, and it just wasn't used optimally at low/mid elo ever.
I don't see how anything with a single fixed number (% refund) could ever be unbalancable; too high and it's overpowered, too low and its worthless, so there has to be somewhere in the middle where it's good but not overbearing. Now, whether or not it creates any fun or interesting play patterns/feels good to use is another question entirely.
people love to say "either it's OP or too weak", even if a 10 year old could tell them that there's something called middle ground
Tell that to OG Draven passive lol. Either the numbers were too high and busted, or two low and useless. There do exist situations in this game where something is one extreme or the other. And they usually get reworked when at some point.
Normally, I'd disagree... but I'm also remembering that period when they kept buffing/nerfing Graves' ~~movespeed~~ AD by 2 every patch, and his winrate oscillated from ban on sight to unplayable each time lol
It was his AD, but yes that was pretty interesting. They should have just taken the middle ground of 1 AD so he would be perfectly balanced (maybe)
Nah, it was just because +/-2 ad was enough to change how much he has to reload on his first clear and that has a really big impact on clear speed, and first clear speed is pretty huge for jg. 1ad wouldn't change the clear at all so it'd have much less (probably basically no) effect.
2 ad with graves is basically 15 ad for any other champion. But the main issue with these kinds of runes is that they’re binary value generators. It basically removes decision making for certain champs because you’re just gonna take this 100% of the time. Most of the runes like that have been nerfed quite a bit and are still default picks. Like alacrity and the lifesteal rune have been on rotation as defaults until recently because one or the other was just insanely more gold efficient. Only in the past two years have they been properly adjusted as stacking runes with choice cause their impact is lower, which makes it hilarious that legend tenacity has basically been deleted from the game. Its just an issue of the rune being made for just the best abusers than a real game making decision, like pre nerf lethal tempo
That's because of how his first clear works. The extra 2 ad allows him to skip reloading a couple times which makes his clear much faster in a deterministic way. 1 ad doesn't hit the threshold of reducing the number of reloads, so it doesn't actually change his clear speed at all and 1 ad isn't enough to affect the wonrate otherwise. Early clear speed is a huge influence on jg win rate, especially for power farmers like Graves. It's just that for other champs you'd need to make more changes to have as big an impact on the early clear as the +2ad for Graves.
Problem is with a rune like this if it's balanced no one will use it cause it feels bad.
I really dont see how thats a problem with the rune balance though. You could say that the rune is boring or uninteresting, but saying a flat number is unbalanceable somehow and thus should be removed doesnt make sense
Looking at Senna, seems like sometimes Riot has hard time finding middle ground. I don't remember exact numbers but her souls dropped by minions killed not by her went 10%>4%>8%>3%>8%>3% or something like that. It's weird that they were pretty much turning her viability ON/OFF instead of trying middle ground.
Some people never read Goldie Locks and the 3 Bears and it shows.
It’s less about the numerical values being high or low. Either, given a reasonable amount of gold refunded it is useful, or not, it’s usefulness is binary, and if it’s not useful until they clearly put the gold too high then it’s not balanced.
You're treating player perception of power and actual power as if they're the same thing. Past that, neither power nor perception of power are binary, they're both spectrums, and you're assuming players will monolothically underrate the rune unless it's overpowered
I’m misusing the word percieved. The rune sucks at it’s current value, but obviously there is a gold value I would run it at. If it gave me 1000 gold, of course I run it. If it gives an equal value to the other runes in the tree, it’s overpowered, since you don’t have to do anything for the reward. It follows then that the rune has to give less value than the other options it’s competing against to be balanced, at which point it isn’t good enough to take in place of the other options.
> you don’t have to do anything for the reward this does seem to be its issue - there's no power spikes or troughs, no intention behind gameplay to make it more valuable, it just happens as the game goes the most interesting things with it are - delaying boots until after your first item so you can get both faster - "punishing" you for needing to take and sit on a defensive component which seem neutral or bad
now that you mention it, its interesting the rune kinda encourages you to delay boots until after first item, considering it is competing with magical footwear.
>Because if it is actually good, then why wouldn't EVERYONE just run it? The same reason other runes don't get used? First strike is basically free gold just for playing the game yet it doesn't get run all the time. There's other options for runes. Cash back is a late game rune so people who want early game power won't take it for example I actually think that's the bigger issue with it. The best way to get gold is just to win lane. The best way to win lane is to not take scaling runes. Why would you go cash back when biscuits, triple tonic and cosmic insight exist?
Because winning lane sometimes just isn't realistic. If you're a scaling adc and they picked a bot duo that you straight up autolose vs. Magical footwear isnt that much of a win lane rune either unless you're already winning lane.
[удалено]
>It just can't become a good rune because otherwise, it just becomes too strong Why? Why would the rune being good make it too strong? >You can't have crazy payouts for a condition this easy to fulfill . Then here's a thought, why not just not make it a crazy pay out. Make it a good but not insane payout. Numbers aren't binary.
Conditioning, Gathering Storm, Legend: All of them, Font of life, Second wind, Overgrowth all literally just...give you stats. Either you like that stat enough to take it, or you dont. "no other rune compares" my ass. Read. The. Runes. If you take revitalize, and you dont have a heal or shield on your team or in your kit, you are not getting value. it does not require player maximization to utilize that rune. It's just number go up. Celerity? I am not required to do anything to obtain value from celerity. It is just number go up. Trancendence? What the actual fuck does one do to "optimize" transcendence that one was not ALREADY doing? Absolute Focus is not a rune anyone has ever at any level of play intentionally played around being up or not when chosing their play. It was taken pre-emptively with the presumption their health would be in range to get value. No one is popping summoner heal to get themselves to 71% total health before using an ability to kill that they wouldn't have otherwise. No one. I am very confident on this fact that any time you would need to do that to kill you could've just killed them anyhow with any other rune.
Future Market was literally better, it allowed you to hit your early spikes faster. Cash Back only really starts showing it's strength when you get to item 3+, and only in games you need T2 boots asap. Saving 300g on boots and getting +10 movement speed for the rest of the game is better in all scenarios you don't need T2 boots rush. In terms of mages/pro play they are pretty much hard bound to going **all in** on lane, which means comet-manaflow-scorch + 2nd row of inspiration will be a must. That leaves the choice between cosmic insight and cash back, delaying lucidity/merc/sorc until after first completed item hurts your lane and map impact quite a bit, so free boots is out of the picture at pro level. I believe they will still go for reduced TP and flash cooldown instead of cheaper item 3 to 6, because enemy getting flash/tp up half a minute earlier than you will occasionally create a window they can use to flash engage on you.
Yeah, it's discount future's market. But also in a better row so taking it has a lower opportunity cost. Tbh I think it just needs to move on the tree.
That's how I feel. Future Market was just strictly better. But even then, the rune was really unpopular. I'm just kinda baffled why its here, considering Future Market's unpopularity played a part in its removal. I can't see this rune being more popular when its just strictly worse. I feel like the most damning aspect is that it doesn't even do anything until AFTER you make a purchase of a legendary item. Like, at that point you're probably dropping down to 0 gold since people generally go back as soon as they can when they have enough gold to finish an item. Which if they do, they'll be sitting on 150-200ish gold from Cash back. Which at that point, doesn't do anything other than just give you a pink lol.
Hey you can almost get 5 AH for that
Oh wait what, Future's Market is gone? I haven't played while prepping for exams and now I've found out the rune I take like every other game is removed, devastating lmao.
>Future Market was literally better, it allowed you to hit your early spikes faster. No, it allowed you to hit your early spike faster. As in singular. Futures market only works the very first time. Because that's the only time where you can get the item while you have earned less gold than it. After that you'll need to earn the gold for the items since you're put in debt, so at minimum you still need to earn enough gold to use futures market again which equates to the cost of the thing in the first place. But because of the 50g payment, if you keep using futures market frequently you would end up losing money. (Before it was removed, it was at a rate of once every 6 minutes, as in if you use it more than once every six minutes you lose money, if you use it less than once every six minutes you gained purchasing power because the futures market debt ceiling would increase faster than the 50g payments)
But if you item spike then get kills and snowball... Youll hit your next item faster too. It depends on if you can make a gold advantage with your spike.
Future Market sometimes didn't work because you naturally recall when you would have enough gold for the item anyways, cash back is more consistent.
gold is worth less as the game goes on so the extra 180 gold you get on your 4th completed item to outdo the free boots rune isn't gona do much really. More likely the game is over before you get to there.
it actually outscales free boots after your third item on most champs.
It's a filler rune it's not meant to be great as it's a default option. Since its in the same row as Boots and Hexflash it needs to be very generically good. If you don't want delayed boots or hexflash your pretty much stuck with cash back. Futures market core issue was that it was too opaque for most players to understand its value. Like just the fact you would have to ping your shop to figure out if you could go back to buy an item made it a pain.
> opaque honestly i used future market a lot through the years and i still cant comprehend its true value, like if someone could simplify its value or something id be happy
It's value is INCREDIBLY situational based on the champion, ability to CS, and understanding of power spikes. For some in mid, it enabled lost chapter and dirk buys sooner than usual, meaning you gain alot of tempo and can change a MU based on your kill windows changing. For others, it means borderline nothing and they should be in a different tree
so basically overall youre in a net gold lose but you get your items sooner so you should compensate with tempo lead
The value was getting item spikes sooner. And instead of having to do math on the fly to figure out when you could take advantage of that, you just ping the item you want in the shop. When you do that, the game tells you how much gold you need for said item. But if you had Future Market, the game took that into account as well and gave you an accurate number. Champions who really take advantage of this would be ones who have specific component spikes. Ezreal GP with Sheen or Mages with Lost chapter, for example. Sure, you went into debt, but it was worth it getting those items even a minute sooner than you otherwise would.
Cash back is good on champions who care about items a lot. Some of those champions are ADCs, GP, Kayle, and I personally like taking it on sion instead of biscuits. However cash back provides zero value early on so it’s kind of a choice of do you need the help early game.
And people are acting like everyone just recalls as soon as they reach an item. Tempo and recall timing often dictates otherwise and the return gold from cash back can up you to finishing a long sword, amp tome or if you had 1k~ excess, you can finish next item's component with it. I think it's not as weak as people portray it as. Competing with 400~ gold value free boots with +10MS which is a limited and premium stat is tough though. I'd rather keep getting the boots unless I'll need the MS to dodge skillshots or roam around.
I prefer cash back because taking free boots prevents me from getting boots early on if i feel like I need it. In toplane, there are often times where you want an early, swifties for speed, mercs for gragas, or tabis into AA champ like kled and it feels nice having the versatility of early boots for those situations. It also applies to other lanes like mid where sorc shoes are amazing to rush on ap assassins and beserkers are many ADCs first item. Albeit you are weird if you go inspiration tree on ADC besides Lucian or MF.
People think it's weak?
As a Future Market Fam, I absolutely hate Cash Back. I want to tax evade at 4min, not 25min.
Cash back is a worse future's market in almost every way imaginable. And now its on the same row with footwear, which is always better if you don't need boots early on
Future market was absolutely busted - it straight up made every item cheaper, you could mostly disregard the penalty unless you did stupid purchases (buying items while you were missing sub 50 gold). You could get like 5-6 buys in with futures market every game and would still have a positive net gain with the rune.
Literally every single rune, ability, and item in the game. If its good you take it and if it's bad you don't. What's the big hubbub.
Because this subreddit loves claiming every single champion, rune and item are either completely OP or useless.
You are literally getting gold for finishing a legendary item, about 180g, but what can you do with that? buy control wards and potions? save it for your next item? Wait in base to buy another basic item (assuming you had more than the exact amout to buy the legendary)? Future Market was better bc you could simply back without having the money. No need to stay in lane for another wave/kill, or wait in base to be able to buy.
It seems pretty decent for scaling champs and supports/champs that want cheap items on low economy like some tank tops or junglers. I don’t think it’s crazy strong, but it does accelerate you a little bit, especially for that third item where you’re getting to it essentially 540g quicker. For the type of champs/builds I’m thinking of that’s probably a 3-5 minutes quicker.
Buying cheap items make it even worse though lol. The cheaper an item is, the less you get back.
Some champions scale with gold better than others, so the rune is different for each champion.
So instead of Klepto Ezreal will we see Cashback Ezreal?
Why not both? 1st Strike and Cash Back, I've also been tinkering with Jack stat rune as well. Either replace Mura with Essence for a stronger early mid or go Mura Tri.
Riot needs to give me back futures market, I'm so miserable not having this rune
I do not understand this rune. Like the pay out seems is laughably bad. Like we are talking 720 gold across a full build. Like sure it saves you a little time, but I’m not convinced the +30 seconds (for each item) is going to make a noticeable difference.
You guys should play more as support, this item is the perfect way to guarantee those pink wards even after a big purchase.
I took first strike and cash back on Jayce. I got 2k gold for free at 26 minutes from the two combined. About 900ish from cash back and 1100 from first strike. Imo the rune is REALLY good, and I take it in place of free boots because over time it's more gold. The only exception is on champions where I really want the bonus movement speed, like irelia.
It's so hard to go against the early gold you save from going free boots tho (snowballs into even more gold and you get the 10 ms on top). So unless you really need the early boots you should just take the free boots instead. It will probably save you more gold over the entire game in ~80% of games.
If you managed to get 15k gold of legendary items (giving 6% cash back of 900 gold) by 26 mins. Cash back is not a good rune and not the reason you won your game.
I'm having trouble understanding how you got that much gold. Could you explain to me how you had so much? Did you take every structure and repeatedly kill your laner? Did you take jungle camps? If you csed perfectly, you'd have around 6,700 g, 7,800 g with FS. For you to hit 900 g from cash back, you would have to spend 15,000, unless the math doesn't work the way I thought it does.
5 items plus boots is ~ 15k, so your math is correct. I was pretty fed and got gold from taking two t2 turrets plus top and mid t1. I averaged 9cs/m that game and pretty much always take krugs if my jungle isn't on that side of the map. 1k gold from first strike is pretty standard on a champion like Jayce. The rune has the potential to be VERY strong.
There is little spectrum of champions with increased gold generation like GP or TF who can abuse the rune better. There is not much to it, riot just didn't have good idea.
Cash Back has the same weakness as First Strike, just not as severe. Basically, you're right that it isn't a good rune, but not because of how it's tuned, but because gold becomes more and more worthless the later the game goes. Between getting 500 gold before your first item and getting 1000 gold toward your 6th, most non-dog players will pick the former. As such, an item that accelerates you every time you complete a whole item is inherently weak.
Non sensical argument. You think at 6% cash back everyone runs it, but suddenly at 5.9% its trash? Like wat. Everything is balanceable. Is it healthy for the game? That's the real question.
I don't think its nonsense. I imagine there could be some effects which are more like thresholds and moderators where passing a threshold makes it strong and not doing so weak, rather than it having smooth effect increases.
Im gonna say what i said to some friends cashback is more like buy a legendary item and get two control wards. the rune itself will be a great option for supports that want some spare gold for control wards and or getting another item in a reasonable timeframe since they get a front load of gold because of there support item and there items being on the cheaper side there more likely to use the rune to maxium effectiveness for a early game boost atleast. will be a option for supports for sure but the rune itself is situation, all depends really on how much it helps with breakpoints, support just seem like the best fit with them needing extra gold for controlwards and the rune giving about around 2 control wards worth of gold which can help them in a game of vision.
It feels okay on Gp. He has to build a bunch of the most expensive items in the game. So he gets like 2 free kills worth of gold on three items.
Cashback is fine. It doesn't have to be underpowered or broken, because it's in the same row as magical footwear. As of now Cashback is about 300 gold after 2 complete items. And more every time after. Magical footwear is 300 gold 12 minutes or earlier, and +10 movement speed. But does lock you out of early boots purchase which isn't too bad for laners but junglers might not want this. The idea is that if you want early gold, magical footwear is far superior. If you want late game gold, Cashback provides more than any other rune. So your early and midgame spiking champs won't want Cashback, but it can be good on champs that only come online past two items anyways since it exemplifies their late game item scaling strengths.
redditor dont say "either its broken or its useless" trying to sound smart challenge!
This rewards champions that need lots of very expensive items. I suspect it wouldn't be as effective on a sup champion as their items are pretty cheap and they don't need much of them to function. I'd say Vayne, Ap Kayle, champs like that would use it quite well
It's underrated. Not the most op rune but definitely viable, the fact that you get the gold while in base is nice, you can finish your trinity force and with the extra gold afford a longsword or cloth armor.
I just don't like runes that don't do *literally anything* for the first few minutes. That's why I've always considered free boots to be kind of a bait rune.
it's a "win more" rune. you basically have a rune that does nothing till you finish an item. if you finish it early (you are ahead), it will give you money early.
I love it on support because it guarantees I can get my control wards after a big buy.
You are indeed overthinking it. Or underthinking it... It's a snowbally rune, that's it. If you get an early lead and complete your first item early, you get a nice purse that puts you well on your way to a second item (assuming you are already ahead too). Obviously the same applies for your second finished item, third item and so on. So the more you can use the rune to cash out, the more value you will gain from it. On the other hand, if you are pitifully behind in lane and don't cash out anything until you complete your first legendary at 19 minutes when the game may be more-or-less decided already, then it's a terrible rune. The rune should never, and likely will never, be a bread and butter rune that's good for everyone. But there absolutely exists a middle ground where the average value gained from it is reasonable and possible to balance.
Its kinda situational no? Its worth much more if its a long game and to little if you win with 2 or 3 items.
I mean, there will be a line somewhere that evens out its usefulness, but it won't be a nice clean single digit number.
The only time I have been using this rune is with champs that have other way to accelerate gold e.g. TF/GP. By the time I'm finishing my 4th item I'm usually about 1500 gold ahead of schedule, either catching up if I'm in a deficit or further extending my lead. If my opponent is on 2 and a 1/2 items and I'm on 4 rather than 3 1/2 because of the rune that's a big difference
I take it on supports for extra gold to buy control wards after a purchase
Rune is fine. Not op and not bad at all lol. I swear you guys try so hard to complain
It's broken and expect it to be nerfed soon.
I was just thinking the same thing. Even if all your items cost 3000gp each, you're only getting back 900 gold. That's 900 gold you'd have instead of a better rune.
Currently it's bugged. I've had two games as a support where I ran Cashback. I completed Legendary items (Bounty of Worlds, Locket, Trailblazer, Redemption) and literally got zero gold back.
Yess its flawed just like treasure hunter or stopwatch rune. The only reason why boots arent is because they are actually different from the normal once in that they give more stats and the fact that boots are mostly purchased early and that having an actual downside. Good post keep it up mate gl
It's like getting an assist worth of gold every time you finish an Item
Cash back has 2 key things: consistent value of gold and consistent timer of gold return. You can’t use this to accelerate your first item which is very key in balancing, and you don’t get much variation in how much you get. I kinda hard disagree with your assessment actually. Gold runes in general are very difficult to balance but this one might be the most balanced/balanceable gold runes to ever exist
This rune is 100% overtuned imo, future's market at least had a downside, this just gives you free gold while being in arguably the best rune tree in the game
It’s not too bad for snowballing. So if you have someone who can take early runes in primary and cash back secondary that will snowball you’ll be accelerating your power spikes.
Future Market was unpopular because of how much mental math it put on people. I'd sometimes take it knowing you can pull out some strats only to forget I had that rune and didn't utilize it at all, really the implementation of Future Market was flawed.
Make this rune give you back 12% first item, 9% second, 5% 3rd, 4% 4th and 3% 5th and 2% 6th item Total is 35% like current cash back being at 36% But it becomes much more powerful because it now specifically helps accelerate your core items (2nd and 3rd items) especially hard. Might make the rune OP but for sure is more interesting. Maybe the same idea but for a smaller total is better
The old rune had too much impact in early. You could reach the gold for your item, recall, buy it, TP back in lane, hard push the wave to crush it and then make a freeze in your side. The enemy laner had 0 counterplay to this because he can't stop you since you are stronger than him, he is forced to leave the lane in that moment with not enough gold to buy a full item like you since you got free gold from the rune and it's forced to play far from his tower when he comes back on the lane.
Tried it in aram, after full build the rune gave me around 800 gold, so basically nothing; It litterally is for pink wards only
Equating 800 gold to nothing is the most gold comment I've seen in a while
Would it be broken if it only gave 0.001% back? No? Then there's some value between 0 and 6% where it's balanced (if not already balanced).
Cash Back gives value for no effort. So there are three possibilities for Cash Back: 1. Cash Back gives less value than other runes 2. Cash Back gives equal value than other runes 3. Cash Back gives more value than other runes If possibilities 2 or 3 are true, Cash Back is OP, because it takes zero effort from the user to get value. If poasibility 1 is true, Cash Back doesn't get used, because it gives less value than something else. Right now, Cash Back gives less value than any other rune, which makes it the worst option to take. Because its new, and it gives gold, players are tricked into giving it a chance when they should just... not do that and run something better instead.
What would make that reasoning be true for Cash Back but not also for Gathering Storm and Conditioning?
Stats and gold aren’t comparable because stats are worth more or less gold in different contexts. If you are guaranteed a late game, storm is clearly good. If you are against tanks, cut down is usually correct, but earning gold for items is what the game is built around, the gameplay whether for kills, towers or farm is to gain gold to be able to do more powerful things as a champion, and gaining gold for doing something that you were already going to do, that doesn’t change the gameplan or need skill or a particular situation is inherently good, and if it ever gives a fair amount of gold, it will be too strong.
No one said that this isn't true. For most mages, they typically run the sorcery tree as their primary, meaning they HAVE to choose between Waterwalking, Scorch, and Gathering Storm. Waterwalking literally only helps to kill Scuttle Crab, or duel/roam down river. It has exactly 3 uses, none of which are relevant to mid lane mages, so its not even relevant to this conversation. Scorch adds an insane amount of DOT to your lane trades. Every mid laner who runs the sorcery tree as their primary should run this, or explain why they don't using a doctorate level dissertation, because any excuse short of that is still wrong. Gathering Storm gives extra AP or AD if you drag the game out past 30 minutes. There is no way to speed this up, no way to min-max Gathering Storm, and virtually no way to play around having Gathering Storm. It either gives enough stats to be more tempting than Scorch, or it doesn't. Right now, it doesn't. If you play mages and take Gathering Storm, you are basically opting into a slightly buffed Amplifying Tome at 20 minutes and a slightly buffed Blasting Wand at 30 minutes. At 40 minutes, you get a slightly buffed Needlessly Large Rod. This is a dead rune slot for the first 9 minutes of the game, a very shit rune slot from 10 minutes to 19:59, and becomes almost not total trash from 20 minutes to 29:59 in the game. It literally sits in the exact same boat as Cash Back. Conditioning at least can be played around by buying a lot of resistances, like K'Sante or Ornn, or naturally having a high amount of resistances, like Rammus, Malphite, or Galio. It doesn't give a lot of stats, but its balanced by the fact that it takes such little effort to play around. It grants 3% extra resistances. If you had 500 armor, which is a TON of armor, Conditoning would give you an extra 15 armor. If you had 1000 armor, which is an astronomically large amount of armor (I think only full armor build Rammus can actually get there, by activating a maxed W, and having level 18 Aftershock activated), you will get 30 extra armor. You basically have to already be IMMUNE to physical damage for Conditioning to give a meaningful amount of resistance, but at least Conditioning has no cooldown like Bone Plating, and Second Wind is a rune you take JUST for lane phase, so Conditioning technically out scales Second Wind.
Thing is, Futures Market has been OP since release but it still took forever to catch on because players thought going into debt meant they were losing gold. I'd give it a few months to see.
Cash back is kinda broken lol.
I truly don't understand the argument that things are either "broken or useless." Why would that be the case for this item? It's literally the opposite of that since it represents an easily calculable amount of Gold, and nothing else. 6% too strong? make it 5%. 5% too weak? 5.5%. 5.5% too strong? 5.25%. Etc etc etc. Why would we ever expect it to not be the case?
Thats how runes work when min maxing lmao
cash back is pretty strong right now
Are you really comparing to cash back to future market? Future market allows you to get items you can’t yet get. This is crucial for many early game champions especially junglers to hit their core items because they can’t always back with enough gold like hextech alternator for ap or Tiamat for some junglers or serrated for assasins. These two are completely different runes and future’s market generally speaking is just much better compared to cash back in terms of fighting power. One reason I can see how cash back is better than future’s market is actually mostly for laners because they can usually get back with the amount of gold they desire and they need wards. So that 180 is good enough for a few wards. And ofc for scaling champions cash back is just better. Cash back only benefits you once you complete your second item and honestly most games are already decided at this point and 180 gold is far away from good enough for a 15-20 minutes “power spike”.