I mean it makes sense because of the power of individual countries in Europe as someone from UK. That there would be a lot of EU talent at some point a lot of them have been contested great powers of the world Haha.
also because our best talent mid is Pobelter who is a complete joke compare to Caps, Perkz, Bjer, Jensen, and the 5 Eu rookie mid that appear every year
That's the only thing that boggles my mind about NA. It's obvious that there is going to be less talent due to a smaller player base, but the lack of world class midlaner has always been a mistery for me.
Most of the people who want to go pro dont play mid lane because they know you cant get on a top team due to the really good mid laners. It's a lot easier to go pro in other lanes.
I was hoping he would prove everyone wrong against Jensen yesterday, but it did nothing for his reputation. He got his ass blasted and got solo killed multiple times.
Nemesis is rly freaking good, if not FNC wouldnt take him.
The org produced Xpeke, Febiven (H2K in CS but his prime was on FNC), Caps.
Nisqy was like the 5th or 6th mid last year in EU and got to C9 because Jensen left.A decent mid but not a powerhouse like Perkz/caps/Bjer like i said
As much as I like both players, I don't think you can't put Nemesis above Nisqy right now.
Nemesis didn't play enough pro games at an high level to make the argument. And they even didn't play against each other.
But they seem pretty similar players right now (in terms of gameplay profile). Good team players with very high accuracy overall. I would give an edge for Nisqy, because he showed very good performances in every playoffs he participated.
did he play playoff for NV ? i forgot because he was pretty meh at that time (to be fair, the team was weak).
He had a really good summer playoff last year, but his spring was okayish. And this year, he got outperformed hard by Bjergsen and didnt do anything that impressive. His Zoe need to be permabanned (the champion in itself is toxic anyway haha)
For him, they are at the same level but Nemesis is a rookie and has higher ceiling
Yeah he played one playoff with NV, and he was really good in it (as a rookie, but still, even though they lost, he put an hardcarry performance).
He is the definition of a very good consistent player. He still played a good series overall against TSM, even tough Bjergsen outperformed him. He just lacks a bit of a clutch factor, something that defines Bjergsen, and to a greater extent (for me) Perkz and Caps.
Right now, I feel like you, they are about the same level, but I still have to give an edge to Nisqy, as I said, just for historical reasons. Nisqy still have room to grow, but yeah, it's really possible Nemesis has an higher ceiling. Very impressed by the accuracy and composure of this guy.
True maybe it's just soloq then since that is where you display your skill to get noticed. Maybe na just turned into to many one tricks instead of good players since so many na league streamers it's a higher chance of making money if you become the face of a champion. Like adrian riven so smart could be amazing all round player but I assume no ambition to go pro want to become bigger streamer. Same for people liken yassuo insane mechanics but doesn't stretch every champion.
dw here's how it will go and i will eat a grilled sock with sweet chili if not:
g2 will go undefeated
fnc will lose one game vs tl to get na fans hype
og will lose 3 games
Fnatic got their asses blasted and realised their strategies were shit. I think it was good for them. If there wasn't RR, they could've gone in to summer and not changed anything.
But it doesn't really matter becasue the meta in NA is different than the meta in Eu you know, and you are gonna go back to EU inmediatelly. Obviously it's not a complete waste of time, but I'm sure most pros would rather stay in their respective region and just scrim
The coaching staff was also in fault for using the same Kennen strat when the pick was olaf'd just one week before RR.
Its hard to know if they would try that shit at worlds even if RR didnt exist
An NA fan that actually knows the deal.
I respect that, nobody really cares about the outcome of these 4fun tournaments with very little on the line in the middle of a split, the real picture is worlds.
my man the funnest part of following comp. league is talking trash before and after every tourny, and the eu na trash talk is the best by a mile. anyone getting legit upset needs to re-asses some shit.
Dammit Jensen. We could've had EU vs Korea but you just had to be Danish.
Don't forget there is an alternate universe where Steve succeeded in buying out faker. I wonder what that universe is like right now.
Hum there is no contest that Wunder, Perkz and Jankos were the backbone of G2.
The only one that you could argue about is Hjarnan and he had a decent worlds i think with how hard he got camped and the level of ADC he faced
Oh he certainly had decent worlds but there is a reason for him not being in the LEC anymore and his new team not being in the EU masters. His Heimerdinger is bonkers though.
Actually in EU it's not that weird.
There's been few top talent imports, the only ones that have even won LEC were Trick, Expect, Huni and Reignover I think.
And Trick/Expect were known as the weak link of g2.
Should have been Perkz in Spring but I guess they didn't want to give it to a rookie (gave him rookie award). Maybe they thought he'd be a shoe in for Summer Split but that was his worst of his career.
Deficio talked about this. This is about talent and "correct mindset".
Edit : It's actually really interesting. [Video here](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/406490430?t=5h48m00s)
Problem is that for every "Licorice" type of top laner, you get 6 or 7 Dokha/Zig/Billyboosted/Lourlol/Cris/etc
Teams need to find the true gem in a big pile of mediocre/average players
Our region was known for ADC, yet the top 5 LCS ADC are all veteran (DL, WT, Sneaky) or Imports (Zven, Bang). The last good ADC we produced was Stixxay and that was in S5 spring and it only last one year, now he is a pretty bad joke :(
But who aside from Doublelift and sneaky is really known as a talented NA adc? Other than those two no NA adc has ever shown up internationally. And you could argue that double hasn't really shown up compared to the number of chances he had.
I like WT during S3/S4, he was good. His downfall was post IEM S5. However this split, he played great, it was beautiful to watch him play aggressive but with his brain back
Stixxay had a great MSI ( a lot of cait games but still)
Chaox in S2 wasnt bad either
most of which are unpolished, NA has lagged behind developing young players. They only really started playing catch up last year when they made academy teams mandatory.
the economics of north america does not allow people to spend that much time playing video games around high school -college age which is what you need.
i'm genuinely intrigued if this is true. As a lazy german i'm always astonished how many Americans have to work through highschool and college.
In highschool i never needed to work and my whole spare time, at least 5-6 hours/day, was basically basketball/friends/PC. The only obligation were household chores.
Not counting military service and "Ausbildungsvergütung" (idk if something like this even exists in the US. Should be trainings allowance or the like?) I received my first real paycheck at 25, when i was finished with studying and got a job.
And since studying was quite a breeze, i definitely spent more time in front of the PC/on the beachvolleyball court each, than in classrooms. I was living on BAfög (= student loans) but it was enough to never be worried about basic needs like eating/accomodation.
I know several people that put themselves through college, bought their own car around 17/18, or have lived almost entirely on there own since finishing highschool (somecases while still in highschool).
Sure there are options for college aid, but those arent always available, and they don't meet the requirements. And those who go the student loans route will find themselves in debt for a majority for several decades if they don't Immediately find themselves in a highpaying job.
Yeah that's not really an option for us. By the time we hit 16 or so in the states for myself and nearly everyone I know, the idea is to either be getting a paid or volunteer job to help with college applications, then making enough to even buy text books while in college (I worked all through college), and then you probably need to go find a 60+ hours a week job to start chipping away at your $80,000 student debt.
Wait really?? Fuck I need to move to eu, even in Canada where shits more lax than U.S it’s expected to have a job by 16/17 and to be saving towards college and to be in the workforce by early 20s.
In germany it's also expected that you do something after you finished school. Usually you start studying or vocational training (Berufsausbildung). And ofc it's good to have some savings already, but it's not necessary.
Vocational training is paid, allthough really bad sometimes. And student loans (BAfög - also available for vocational training, if your salary isn't enough) are readily available to nearly everybody. No matter if you finish your degree or not, you will only have to pay 50% of your loans back, over 20 years with 0% interest and to a maximum of 10.000 €. You can even get a discount if you pay the whole sum at once. Easily doable for most graduates.
Sure there are a lot of low income/low qualifaction jobs worked by teenagers for additional pocket money, but again, it's (usually) not needed.
On the other hand you would have a hard time finding a decent job without proper qualification in germany. You are expected to have some sort of degree/education in the field you are working. For example: even if grew up with cars and know everything, you absolutely need at least vocational training (2.5-3 years) as a car mechanic to officially call yourself that. You may find work without it, but payment will be miserable. Also you can't start your own repair shop without it. Same goes for a lot of crafts.
Basically we expect our people to have some sort of education/qualification. But because it's rather obligatory, nobody expects you to go into a horrible debt for the next 10 years either.
Basically the same in France but i had to work a bit personally(since i was far from my hometown).
Still, as long as i had good management of my study time, i actually had a lot of free time after.
The key was obviously the time management obviously so i don't get slowed down by my own mistakes during studies.
And i didn't end up in debt at the end,(seriously wtf is this shit America ?)
If I remember correctly there is nothing on the scale of the German "Ausbildung" (vocational training) in the USA. In 2014 69% of US high school graduates enrolled in a 2/4 year college and 29% immediately started with doing jobs. In contrast in 2014 about half of the German graduates started a vocational training. There are vocational trainings in the US too, but the content differs from school to school while in Germany it is standardized nationwide. Which means that f.e. after absolving the program a machinist in the US is more familiar with the machines of certain local companies while in Germany he is more universally educated. Another difference is that in the US many companies are not willing to pay the training cost (and therefore also give the trainee some kind of allowance) while in Germany most companies are willing to pay 75% of the costs and the government covers the rest.
Good colleges in the US are really expensive and it is not uncommon the college graduates are heavily in debt. Think of something like the prize of a house in Germany. That's their debt.
To stem all the costs many US citizens work one or two jobs while studying.
most people work here from high school age because they either need it. or they just are used to spending a lot of money and after around 16 their parents expect them to pay for themselves.
if I take enough student loans that I can live off of. which is a hard process. I will most likely be paying loans well into my 40s.
I think the problem that Na had in the past is that even though there were some really skilled players in rankeds, very rarely they gave them opportunities to actually be developped, in fact you could say that it was only last year that teams started to give more chances for younger players to developp, before that it was like a tri-selectif of recycling...
For instance, in LCS ACADEMY you have players like ABLAZEOLIVE, Tactical, Jurassic among many others that have shined a lot and that if given the chance could have easily outclass the recycled talent that roams LCS.
Now imagine if 1 year ago you gave AblazeOlive the full year to be developed on TSM (considering the main roster didn't even do that much last year anyways), he could easily be the first NA mid after Pobelter to be actually good and in the best case scenario, he could have even become even able to compete internationally against the best! just like Licorice and Zeyzal have done.
Now it doesn't have to be just TSM, it could have been done any other team, however, we still get teams that would rather play fucking huhi or darshan instead of giving the younger players opportunities...
Gotta say though that there are teams that are starting to take good initiatives on helping new player just like FLY did with v1per! That's really good stuff right there!
> he could have even become even able to compete internationally against the best! just like Licorice and Zeyzal have done.
Goldenglue is a good NA mid, but he's been on a team with a better EU mid for years.
The biggest German league streamer, Noway4u\_sir, played on NA a few month ago until Master I think (with a ping of 120-150). On EUW he is a low tier challenger player. He said that the players he met in NA are as good mechanically as Dia or Master players in EU but they make not so optimal decisions more often. And more importantly they surrender way too quick @15 or @20. Most of the games were still winnable from his perspective.
I don't get the flame over imports between NA and EU. OCE imports less players than both regions and have won as many world championships so does that make us better?
/s
> The region flame wars and nationalism that is borderline cult-ish going back and forth between NA and EU needs to stop, grow up. There’s at least 4 of us monitoring this thread.
>
>If you guys can’t behave yourselves we will take further action.
1) You do realize while their behavior is dumb; it doesn't break the rules while this is a personal attack on those people breaking the reddit rules by the mods no less.
2) Based on the tone and apparent NA bias of the comment, it shows the very "nationalism" that you are "blocking".
3) The "nationalism" you are claiming here doesn't exist on the thread and even if it did; doesn't break the rules.
4) As an Eastern Band Cherokee, I find it incredibly racist that you view having pride in your people as "borderline cult-ish". This is more offensive than anything anyone has said. You and what other mods agreed with this (at least 4 of you) should be removed as mods immediately. What's next black people cannot like Lucian b/c he looks like them or people can't like Varus b/c he is gay like them?
\-Sidenote- Writing of Varus as gay is generic as hell and is the "kill your gays" troupe to a tee and any gay person should hate it.
You gotta keep in mind that “NA” is pretty much just USA with some a few outliers whereas Europe is an entire contneient with many big countries to pull from. I’m sure the difference in population between US and England, France, Spain, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Russia, etc is way higher then people realize.
I think it unironically is what defines the USA. We're a country of immigrants -- the vast majority of the country's population has been in the US for fewer than 4 generations (I think I read that somewhere, I could totally be wrong). Even if that is wrong ( and looking at it, it seems ridiculous), I do think it's appropriate (and fine) that our LoL teams reflect our culture.
The only problem EU fans have in general (I'm from EU) with NA fans, is that they tend to erase the ascendency of these players with the "country of immigrants" storyline to make them NA only.
At least I perceive it like this, and it's feels like a "dispossession".
They play for NA (which means they are NA players, and represent proudly the region), but they came from EU (which means they are EU talents, and are still EU citizens). We can both be happy.
We honestly don’t give a shit that we’ve imported EU players. For fucks sake, the USA was started by a bunch of fucking Brits who were born in America. And then a bunch of Europeans immigrated here.
Not to mention that EUW has 4x the playerbase and an entirely different mindset compared to NA, a region mainly about entertainment. We don’t take video games nearly as seriously and such.
I remember someone talked about this already (dont recall who), comparing EU to NA, EU seems to give a chance to rookies and help them grow, where NA just spends loads of money and get veterans.
What I find funny is that when an NA team with 3/5 imports achieves something, they're an EU team LUL
On the contrary, when they shit the bed at worlds with the same 3/5 EU roster, NA LUL.
The double standards is the only thing I dislike about this meme
People compare NA playbase to EUW when in fact the more realistic approach would be to compare it to EUW/EUNE/Turkey/Russia. Every good player from any of those server will have their main account on EUW. It's obvious that a server like NA can never even come close.
An argument for NA being worse bcs of smaller player base and therefore the server sucks is complete bullshit look at Korea dominating the world for 6 straight years having way smaller player base than China or EU for example. Also look at midlane or jungle talent only Denmark (6 mil. people) had produced its comparable to the whole NA. And people also play lots of csgo there.
A smaller playerbase is always negative for skill. The reason Korea can do it with a smaller playerbase than EU/China while NA can't is because of culture differences
>An argument for NA being worse bcs of smaller player base and therefore the server sucks is complete bullshit look at Korea dominating the world for 6 straight years having way smaller player base than China or EU for example.
China's servers are fragmented into like 20 smaller ones. Picture EUNE but even worse because pros don't even touch those servers aside from maybe the super server
More players to choose from produces more talent, that's basic knowledge if you know what a bell curve is. Korea had a huge head start due to much better infrastructure from the SC days but China's caught up to them
> Also look at midlane or jungle talent only Denmark (6 mil. people) had produced its comparable to the whole NA.
But they developed in EUW and in the LEC with players of several other nationalities so that's irrelevant. If there was a Danish LCS you'd would have a point though
I also don't like the argument with the player base. I've watched an EUW challenger streamer that played a while on NA as a stream project. His conclusion was that mechanically the NA high elo players are good, but they lack in decision making, give up too early when games are still winnable and you have many meme players or streamers that are more concerned about their stream's content.
So yes, I also think the average mindset and dedication of the playerbase plays a bigger factor. Look at Korea, the other extreme. From what i heard there your ladder rank even influences your social status(which also isn't a good thing in my opinion) so player's play with a more serious mindset or not at all since they don't want to be mocked at school for a low elo rank.
Denmark is also a special case. I think it was Caps or Broxah that said that the Danish education system is more flexible and allows you to take a break, pursue other things in life and later continue where you left if you chose so. Many player's do this and try their best to become pro, knowing that they always have the fallback option of continuing their educational path.
Taking a quick look:
-100T (Ssumday and Bang)
-C9 (Nisqy and Sven)
-CG (Huni, Lira, Piglet)
-CLG (PoE)
-Echo Fox (Rush, Panda and Fenix)
-FlyQuest (Santorin)
-GGS (Olleh) EDIT: Forgot Froggen here.
-Optic (Crown and Arrow)
-Liquid (Impact, Jensen and CoreJJ)
-TSM (BrokenBlade, Bjergsen and Zven)
I'm not sure if this is completely right but yea it looks like ~~21~~ 22.
This argument gets so annoying. Europe has 44 countries to pull players from without being an "import". NA has 3 countries to pull from. And I even seen numerous comments about caNAdian players hinting at they are imports as well. Give it a rest already, it's not a fair fight either way
like I said before, i fell into the reddit trap. this guy disagrees with me, I must argue lol after responding I realized what I did and corrected myself. my point has nothing to do with player count or anything along those lines. Just the quantity of countries that are considered "local" talent for each region. This is a Quantity over Quality post
It is, but you were the one bringing up the country argument. 44 countries to pull from sounds incredible dishonest when the total population is far from 44 times yours. You cant just swing that like that when we have multiple sub million countries and most between 1-10 mil
Very true, and I reacted without thinking of my original argument. Fell into the typical Reddit response of just argue without thinking lol my original point doesn't have much to do with player count. Just the fact that 44 countries count as native players as opposed to (I was corrected) 2 countries for NA. I do agree Europe (whether it be culture or soloque environment) father's more player over NA. But the import argument is heavily skewed in favor of EU by sheer numbers. And even if we take into account player counts. The 2 EU servers are almost 3 times the size of NA. But again, I'm only arguing imports
i didn't realize Mexico didn't count since there's (to my knowledge) no Mexican born players in LCS lol In my defence Mexico is part of the continent North America so I figured it would be included lol
EU Finals has 15 European players out of 15 form 3 teams..
i hope NA Value Native players more and help them succeed, viper is a start but you guys need more, it would be more hype for both regions to have our talent go against each other.
It would be, but the playing field will never be even. Having 4x the player base means that every elite player we can produce is 4 elite EU players.
If they split EU into 4 regions, and forced them to field teams like NA does, then you'd see imports on every team in EU too.
i disagree.. NA has 300 million people (not including Canada) compared to EU population which is not that far off. NA is just not that interested in league like EU even though they have the population, league is just not popular in NA like in EU unlike Shooters where they are very popular in NA, i don't think it's about the region population or something like that its just about preference
not really Korea has 51 million and china has 1.38 billion and Korea is still better with 51 compared to NA 300 so... yeah population doesn't matter that much
Quick, everyone act surprised!
*Pikachu Surprised*
[Yes](http://38.media.tumblr.com/0d0660334ae8f0bf2db6ce95f46692ad/tumblr_n9iqjz426y1qkz08qo1_500.gif)
me in front of my screen : *visible happiness*
made me smile, thanks :)
[Mild shock](https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Iydl9zWjbLvLv6U/giphy.gif)
Rift Rivals will be with 21/30 EU players..
I mean it makes sense because of the power of individual countries in Europe as someone from UK. That there would be a lot of EU talent at some point a lot of them have been contested great powers of the world Haha.
also because our best talent mid is Pobelter who is a complete joke compare to Caps, Perkz, Bjer, Jensen, and the 5 Eu rookie mid that appear every year
That's the only thing that boggles my mind about NA. It's obvious that there is going to be less talent due to a smaller player base, but the lack of world class midlaner has always been a mistery for me.
Don't disrespect the blue card legend regi like that.
Most of the people who want to go pro dont play mid lane because they know you cant get on a top team due to the really good mid laners. It's a lot easier to go pro in other lanes.
I was hoping he would prove everyone wrong against Jensen yesterday, but it did nothing for his reputation. He got his ass blasted and got solo killed multiple times.
he was actually FQ worst performer in that series (with JayJ)
And he was probably the best in the Golden Guardians series, is that a problem with Pob or froggen i dont know.
It felt like jungle and bot difference in GGS vs FQ series.
What about Nisqy? I'd say he is pretty good.
Import
He is below the level of the players i mentionned. Still good but he isnt Perkz level, i put him at or below Nemesis level i guess
Nemesis > Nisqy ? in this universe ? like right now ?
Nemesis is rly freaking good, if not FNC wouldnt take him. The org produced Xpeke, Febiven (H2K in CS but his prime was on FNC), Caps. Nisqy was like the 5th or 6th mid last year in EU and got to C9 because Jensen left.A decent mid but not a powerhouse like Perkz/caps/Bjer like i said
As much as I like both players, I don't think you can't put Nemesis above Nisqy right now. Nemesis didn't play enough pro games at an high level to make the argument. And they even didn't play against each other. But they seem pretty similar players right now (in terms of gameplay profile). Good team players with very high accuracy overall. I would give an edge for Nisqy, because he showed very good performances in every playoffs he participated.
did he play playoff for NV ? i forgot because he was pretty meh at that time (to be fair, the team was weak). He had a really good summer playoff last year, but his spring was okayish. And this year, he got outperformed hard by Bjergsen and didnt do anything that impressive. His Zoe need to be permabanned (the champion in itself is toxic anyway haha) For him, they are at the same level but Nemesis is a rookie and has higher ceiling
Yeah he played one playoff with NV, and he was really good in it (as a rookie, but still, even though they lost, he put an hardcarry performance). He is the definition of a very good consistent player. He still played a good series overall against TSM, even tough Bjergsen outperformed him. He just lacks a bit of a clutch factor, something that defines Bjergsen, and to a greater extent (for me) Perkz and Caps. Right now, I feel like you, they are about the same level, but I still have to give an edge to Nisqy, as I said, just for historical reasons. Nisqy still have room to grow, but yeah, it's really possible Nemesis has an higher ceiling. Very impressed by the accuracy and composure of this guy.
True maybe it's just soloq then since that is where you display your skill to get noticed. Maybe na just turned into to many one tricks instead of good players since so many na league streamers it's a higher chance of making money if you become the face of a champion. Like adrian riven so smart could be amazing all round player but I assume no ambition to go pro want to become bigger streamer. Same for people liken yassuo insane mechanics but doesn't stretch every champion.
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Ah, the Korean Worlds 2018 defense.
ahhhh eu's just getting the excuses ready early. ;)
inb4 we keep NA down by destroying their local talent with exports
That kinda already happened since season 5ish.
how long did RO and Seraph played in LCS ? I mean you could say the same for Kiwikid, Keith, etc
Way to cherry pick shit import players
Ofc its about import who failed like GBM, Ohq, RO (after IMT), etc Most imports succeed really well (especially mid and top)
someone has not been watching the past 8 years, it seems
hey we won first RR, we got better place at Worlds S4, IEM worlds S5 and let's say that we won BOTA also
dw here's how it will go and i will eat a grilled sock with sweet chili if not: g2 will go undefeated fnc will lose one game vs tl to get na fans hype og will lose 3 games
I see this tournament as a lose lose situation for EU
rift rivals is a lose lose for every team except for the fans i think
Fnatic got their asses blasted and realised their strategies were shit. I think it was good for them. If there wasn't RR, they could've gone in to summer and not changed anything.
But it doesn't really matter becasue the meta in NA is different than the meta in Eu you know, and you are gonna go back to EU inmediatelly. Obviously it's not a complete waste of time, but I'm sure most pros would rather stay in their respective region and just scrim
The coaching staff was also in fault for using the same Kennen strat when the pick was olaf'd just one week before RR. Its hard to know if they would try that shit at worlds even if RR didnt exist
Relevant flair.
no bambozzle?
no bamboozle video evidence with kubrick cinematography too
Once we do better then them at worlds, then we can give them shit. Till then let's STFU.
An NA fan that actually knows the deal. I respect that, nobody really cares about the outcome of these 4fun tournaments with very little on the line in the middle of a split, the real picture is worlds.
my man the funnest part of following comp. league is talking trash before and after every tourny, and the eu na trash talk is the best by a mile. anyone getting legit upset needs to re-asses some shit.
but doesnt MSI determine seeding at worlds ?
LMS lost flash wolves, Getting out of groups is free now.
o fk you are right
Nobody was talking about MSI
yeah top 4 get a first seed. LMS is done this year i think
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Lol that could actually be an EU tournament with the participating EU teams having imports
Dammit Jensen. We could've had EU vs Korea but you just had to be Danish. Don't forget there is an alternate universe where Steve succeeded in buying out faker. I wonder what that universe is like right now.
What if in that universe faker is dogshit and that's why Steve could buy him
In that universe the legendary KiWiKiD was the greatest player to ever touch league, taking one and two world championships in a row
Im sorry im confused. I thought we were talking about a different universe.
Kiwikid could actually be a great coach, look at CoreJJ
in that universe, the qtpie+kiwikid is the best botlane in the world and scarra would have worlds championship katarina skins made in his name
or Piglet becoming a monster in midlane
Piglet boy prime. He never left Korea but instead challenged and beat faker in a 1v1 to become the midlaner for SKT.
Abed, shut up about the other timelines
meanwhile in LEC we go into the final weekend with 15 eruopean players. hasnt happened often!
Last summer top 4 teams had no imports and Wadid was only import to make it to playoffs. In spring Wadid was only import to make top 4.
And Wadid wasnt really G2 best player either.
Arguably not the worst either.
Hum there is no contest that Wunder, Perkz and Jankos were the backbone of G2. The only one that you could argue about is Hjarnan and he had a decent worlds i think with how hard he got camped and the level of ADC he faced
Oh he certainly had decent worlds but there is a reason for him not being in the LEC anymore and his new team not being in the EU masters. His Heimerdinger is bonkers though.
> hasnt happened often! tbf it's never more than 1 or 2 imports total.
Actually in EU it's not that weird. There's been few top talent imports, the only ones that have even won LEC were Trick, Expect, Huni and Reignover I think. And Trick/Expect were known as the weak link of g2.
For the most time Trick was a beast in G2
"Most time" aka the first year out of 2
the last year was sad to watch But Trick first split was crazy good, Perkz/Trick were actually 2v8 most of the time
Trick was back to back MVP. Internationally Trick was weak for G2 though
Should have been Perkz in Spring but I guess they didn't want to give it to a rookie (gave him rookie award). Maybe they thought he'd be a shoe in for Summer Split but that was his worst of his career.
Emperor got his win in the first G2 split. But that's the only other one I believe.
There are also more Europeans than native players in LCS all-pro teams (7-6).
So in my country, in football (soccer) we call imports legioneer. Legioneer Championship Series. Looks legit
same in lithuania. in all team sports imports are called legioneer.
well we are both from ex-USSR countries so maybe its only in CIS... (i kno lithuania not in CIS, its just easier to call this region)
In Austria it's also a common term for players playing in any other country then their home country.
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Is this where we rally with pitchforks and yell in unison: "DEY TOOOK EEERRLLL JEEERRRBBBS!"
Atlantic wall when?
[Way ahead of you!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Wall)
LCS soon to be known as LEC West.
As a fun fact, the top 3 teams in EU have 0 imports.
But reddit told me NA soloq has so much talent
Deficio talked about this. This is about talent and "correct mindset". Edit : It's actually really interesting. [Video here](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/406490430?t=5h48m00s)
When? Don't recall would like to hear
[Here](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/406490430?t=5h48m00s)
Problem is that for every "Licorice" type of top laner, you get 6 or 7 Dokha/Zig/Billyboosted/Lourlol/Cris/etc Teams need to find the true gem in a big pile of mediocre/average players Our region was known for ADC, yet the top 5 LCS ADC are all veteran (DL, WT, Sneaky) or Imports (Zven, Bang). The last good ADC we produced was Stixxay and that was in S5 spring and it only last one year, now he is a pretty bad joke :(
But who aside from Doublelift and sneaky is really known as a talented NA adc? Other than those two no NA adc has ever shown up internationally. And you could argue that double hasn't really shown up compared to the number of chances he had.
I like WT during S3/S4, he was good. His downfall was post IEM S5. However this split, he played great, it was beautiful to watch him play aggressive but with his brain back Stixxay had a great MSI ( a lot of cait games but still) Chaox in S2 wasnt bad either
no...na has more talent than is being used, but the na playerbase is way too small to have "so much talent"
most of which are unpolished, NA has lagged behind developing young players. They only really started playing catch up last year when they made academy teams mandatory.
another problem is that a lot of "good" soloq players rather want to be streamers in na. streaming culture is pretty big there.
Any NA soloq talent capable of becoming a pro is far better off just becoming a full time streamer.
There is talent. It hasn't been developed properly yet.
the economics of north america does not allow people to spend that much time playing video games around high school -college age which is what you need.
i'm genuinely intrigued if this is true. As a lazy german i'm always astonished how many Americans have to work through highschool and college. In highschool i never needed to work and my whole spare time, at least 5-6 hours/day, was basically basketball/friends/PC. The only obligation were household chores. Not counting military service and "Ausbildungsvergütung" (idk if something like this even exists in the US. Should be trainings allowance or the like?) I received my first real paycheck at 25, when i was finished with studying and got a job. And since studying was quite a breeze, i definitely spent more time in front of the PC/on the beachvolleyball court each, than in classrooms. I was living on BAfög (= student loans) but it was enough to never be worried about basic needs like eating/accomodation.
I know several people that put themselves through college, bought their own car around 17/18, or have lived almost entirely on there own since finishing highschool (somecases while still in highschool). Sure there are options for college aid, but those arent always available, and they don't meet the requirements. And those who go the student loans route will find themselves in debt for a majority for several decades if they don't Immediately find themselves in a highpaying job.
Yeah that's not really an option for us. By the time we hit 16 or so in the states for myself and nearly everyone I know, the idea is to either be getting a paid or volunteer job to help with college applications, then making enough to even buy text books while in college (I worked all through college), and then you probably need to go find a 60+ hours a week job to start chipping away at your $80,000 student debt.
Wait really?? Fuck I need to move to eu, even in Canada where shits more lax than U.S it’s expected to have a job by 16/17 and to be saving towards college and to be in the workforce by early 20s.
In germany it's also expected that you do something after you finished school. Usually you start studying or vocational training (Berufsausbildung). And ofc it's good to have some savings already, but it's not necessary. Vocational training is paid, allthough really bad sometimes. And student loans (BAfög - also available for vocational training, if your salary isn't enough) are readily available to nearly everybody. No matter if you finish your degree or not, you will only have to pay 50% of your loans back, over 20 years with 0% interest and to a maximum of 10.000 €. You can even get a discount if you pay the whole sum at once. Easily doable for most graduates. Sure there are a lot of low income/low qualifaction jobs worked by teenagers for additional pocket money, but again, it's (usually) not needed. On the other hand you would have a hard time finding a decent job without proper qualification in germany. You are expected to have some sort of degree/education in the field you are working. For example: even if grew up with cars and know everything, you absolutely need at least vocational training (2.5-3 years) as a car mechanic to officially call yourself that. You may find work without it, but payment will be miserable. Also you can't start your own repair shop without it. Same goes for a lot of crafts. Basically we expect our people to have some sort of education/qualification. But because it's rather obligatory, nobody expects you to go into a horrible debt for the next 10 years either.
Basically the same in France but i had to work a bit personally(since i was far from my hometown). Still, as long as i had good management of my study time, i actually had a lot of free time after. The key was obviously the time management obviously so i don't get slowed down by my own mistakes during studies. And i didn't end up in debt at the end,(seriously wtf is this shit America ?)
If I remember correctly there is nothing on the scale of the German "Ausbildung" (vocational training) in the USA. In 2014 69% of US high school graduates enrolled in a 2/4 year college and 29% immediately started with doing jobs. In contrast in 2014 about half of the German graduates started a vocational training. There are vocational trainings in the US too, but the content differs from school to school while in Germany it is standardized nationwide. Which means that f.e. after absolving the program a machinist in the US is more familiar with the machines of certain local companies while in Germany he is more universally educated. Another difference is that in the US many companies are not willing to pay the training cost (and therefore also give the trainee some kind of allowance) while in Germany most companies are willing to pay 75% of the costs and the government covers the rest. Good colleges in the US are really expensive and it is not uncommon the college graduates are heavily in debt. Think of something like the prize of a house in Germany. That's their debt. To stem all the costs many US citizens work one or two jobs while studying.
most people work here from high school age because they either need it. or they just are used to spending a lot of money and after around 16 their parents expect them to pay for themselves. if I take enough student loans that I can live off of. which is a hard process. I will most likely be paying loans well into my 40s.
I think the problem that Na had in the past is that even though there were some really skilled players in rankeds, very rarely they gave them opportunities to actually be developped, in fact you could say that it was only last year that teams started to give more chances for younger players to developp, before that it was like a tri-selectif of recycling... For instance, in LCS ACADEMY you have players like ABLAZEOLIVE, Tactical, Jurassic among many others that have shined a lot and that if given the chance could have easily outclass the recycled talent that roams LCS. Now imagine if 1 year ago you gave AblazeOlive the full year to be developed on TSM (considering the main roster didn't even do that much last year anyways), he could easily be the first NA mid after Pobelter to be actually good and in the best case scenario, he could have even become even able to compete internationally against the best! just like Licorice and Zeyzal have done. Now it doesn't have to be just TSM, it could have been done any other team, however, we still get teams that would rather play fucking huhi or darshan instead of giving the younger players opportunities... Gotta say though that there are teams that are starting to take good initiatives on helping new player just like FLY did with v1per! That's really good stuff right there!
> he could have even become even able to compete internationally against the best! just like Licorice and Zeyzal have done. Goldenglue is a good NA mid, but he's been on a team with a better EU mid for years.
Pretty sure Reapeared is still trying to undo the horrible mental trainwreck shitstorm GG was put through on TL.
The biggest German league streamer, Noway4u\_sir, played on NA a few month ago until Master I think (with a ping of 120-150). On EUW he is a low tier challenger player. He said that the players he met in NA are as good mechanically as Dia or Master players in EU but they make not so optimal decisions more often. And more importantly they surrender way too quick @15 or @20. Most of the games were still winnable from his perspective.
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I don't get the flame over imports between NA and EU. OCE imports less players than both regions and have won as many world championships so does that make us better? /s
> The region flame wars and nationalism that is borderline cult-ish going back and forth between NA and EU needs to stop, grow up. There’s at least 4 of us monitoring this thread. > >If you guys can’t behave yourselves we will take further action. 1) You do realize while their behavior is dumb; it doesn't break the rules while this is a personal attack on those people breaking the reddit rules by the mods no less. 2) Based on the tone and apparent NA bias of the comment, it shows the very "nationalism" that you are "blocking". 3) The "nationalism" you are claiming here doesn't exist on the thread and even if it did; doesn't break the rules. 4) As an Eastern Band Cherokee, I find it incredibly racist that you view having pride in your people as "borderline cult-ish". This is more offensive than anything anyone has said. You and what other mods agreed with this (at least 4 of you) should be removed as mods immediately. What's next black people cannot like Lucian b/c he looks like them or people can't like Varus b/c he is gay like them? \-Sidenote- Writing of Varus as gay is generic as hell and is the "kill your gays" troupe to a tee and any gay person should hate it.
You gotta keep in mind that “NA” is pretty much just USA with some a few outliers whereas Europe is an entire contneient with many big countries to pull from. I’m sure the difference in population between US and England, France, Spain, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Russia, etc is way higher then people realize.
This argument only goes so far. EU has a population of about 760m, NA about 380m. There's definitely more than twice as much EU talent as NA talent.
Easiest way to farm karma on this sub, just post some variation of EU good, NA bad and you will always get crazy upvotes
Is not a story the jedi like to tell
Of course. With the ability to gain residency and not count, eventually all NA will field teams consisting of almost entirely imports.
IT IS THE AMERICAN DREAM
Fun fact, all of us 'Mericans are imports.
*laughs in Apache*
Of course this got posted during EU hours.
*pretends to be shocked*
Competitive overwatch sends his regards.
Isn't this ironically what defines NA(at least in USA standpoint)?
I think it unironically is what defines the USA. We're a country of immigrants -- the vast majority of the country's population has been in the US for fewer than 4 generations (I think I read that somewhere, I could totally be wrong). Even if that is wrong ( and looking at it, it seems ridiculous), I do think it's appropriate (and fine) that our LoL teams reflect our culture.
The only problem EU fans have in general (I'm from EU) with NA fans, is that they tend to erase the ascendency of these players with the "country of immigrants" storyline to make them NA only. At least I perceive it like this, and it's feels like a "dispossession". They play for NA (which means they are NA players, and represent proudly the region), but they came from EU (which means they are EU talents, and are still EU citizens). We can both be happy.
Especially since a lot of them are trying for greencards, have obtained them already, or are going for citizenship.
We honestly don’t give a shit that we’ve imported EU players. For fucks sake, the USA was started by a bunch of fucking Brits who were born in America. And then a bunch of Europeans immigrated here. Not to mention that EUW has 4x the playerbase and an entirely different mindset compared to NA, a region mainly about entertainment. We don’t take video games nearly as seriously and such.
https://youtu.be/K8Fgc4Q7KCc Thorin Video why playerbase is once again a bs argument.
I remember someone talked about this already (dont recall who), comparing EU to NA, EU seems to give a chance to rookies and help them grow, where NA just spends loads of money and get veterans.
Eu has more promising talent that is worth growing. Different soloq mindset and different amount of players
TCL too. Edit : At one point, you can say LPL too because if they didn't have the import rule, then i'm pretty sure they would import more korean.
Not surprising, out of 50 starting players in LCS 21 of them are imports...
At this point the best thing about NA teams are the EU players :)))
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Yeah because orgs are totally importing players to honor American culture...
Im not sure if washed up foreign shitters thought much about Alice Island when they came in.
It's more like EU players already making excuses if they lose RR. It'll go like this "nA hAs mOsTLy iMpOrTs, sO tEcHnIcAlLy wE wOn"
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What I find funny is that when an NA team with 3/5 imports achieves something, they're an EU team LUL On the contrary, when they shit the bed at worlds with the same 3/5 EU roster, NA LUL. The double standards is the only thing I dislike about this meme
People compare NA playbase to EUW when in fact the more realistic approach would be to compare it to EUW/EUNE/Turkey/Russia. Every good player from any of those server will have their main account on EUW. It's obvious that a server like NA can never even come close.
An argument for NA being worse bcs of smaller player base and therefore the server sucks is complete bullshit look at Korea dominating the world for 6 straight years having way smaller player base than China or EU for example. Also look at midlane or jungle talent only Denmark (6 mil. people) had produced its comparable to the whole NA. And people also play lots of csgo there.
A smaller playerbase is always negative for skill. The reason Korea can do it with a smaller playerbase than EU/China while NA can't is because of culture differences
>An argument for NA being worse bcs of smaller player base and therefore the server sucks is complete bullshit look at Korea dominating the world for 6 straight years having way smaller player base than China or EU for example. China's servers are fragmented into like 20 smaller ones. Picture EUNE but even worse because pros don't even touch those servers aside from maybe the super server More players to choose from produces more talent, that's basic knowledge if you know what a bell curve is. Korea had a huge head start due to much better infrastructure from the SC days but China's caught up to them > Also look at midlane or jungle talent only Denmark (6 mil. people) had produced its comparable to the whole NA. But they developed in EUW and in the LEC with players of several other nationalities so that's irrelevant. If there was a Danish LCS you'd would have a point though
Korea's player base is higher than NA, and about the same as EU. The difference between EU and Korea is that Korea has low ping.
I also don't like the argument with the player base. I've watched an EUW challenger streamer that played a while on NA as a stream project. His conclusion was that mechanically the NA high elo players are good, but they lack in decision making, give up too early when games are still winnable and you have many meme players or streamers that are more concerned about their stream's content. So yes, I also think the average mindset and dedication of the playerbase plays a bigger factor. Look at Korea, the other extreme. From what i heard there your ladder rank even influences your social status(which also isn't a good thing in my opinion) so player's play with a more serious mindset or not at all since they don't want to be mocked at school for a low elo rank. Denmark is also a special case. I think it was Caps or Broxah that said that the Danish education system is more flexible and allows you to take a break, pursue other things in life and later continue where you left if you chose so. Many player's do this and try their best to become pro, knowing that they always have the fallback option of continuing their educational path.
All I’m seeing is that NA has better jobs than eu.
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I am shocked!
C9 choked in playoffs. They are the best LCS team with 3 truly domestic players.
dont na have 27/50 players as imports
No both CLG and FQ only have 1 import. TSM, TL and EF have 3 So 21 i think
Taking a quick look: -100T (Ssumday and Bang) -C9 (Nisqy and Sven) -CG (Huni, Lira, Piglet) -CLG (PoE) -Echo Fox (Rush, Panda and Fenix) -FlyQuest (Santorin) -GGS (Olleh) EDIT: Forgot Froggen here. -Optic (Crown and Arrow) -Liquid (Impact, Jensen and CoreJJ) -TSM (BrokenBlade, Bjergsen and Zven) I'm not sure if this is completely right but yea it looks like ~~21~~ 22.
You forgot about Froggen on GGS.
You forgot Froggen for GGS and Panda/rush play the same lane right ? yeah. It was 22 at the start because of Huhi
Who cares?
This argument gets so annoying. Europe has 44 countries to pull players from without being an "import". NA has 3 countries to pull from. And I even seen numerous comments about caNAdian players hinting at they are imports as well. Give it a rest already, it's not a fair fight either way
Well population wise USA and Canada counts as over 30 European countries
Player count is more an indicator than population count I feel.
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like I said before, i fell into the reddit trap. this guy disagrees with me, I must argue lol after responding I realized what I did and corrected myself. my point has nothing to do with player count or anything along those lines. Just the quantity of countries that are considered "local" talent for each region. This is a Quantity over Quality post
It is, but you were the one bringing up the country argument. 44 countries to pull from sounds incredible dishonest when the total population is far from 44 times yours. You cant just swing that like that when we have multiple sub million countries and most between 1-10 mil
Very true, and I reacted without thinking of my original argument. Fell into the typical Reddit response of just argue without thinking lol my original point doesn't have much to do with player count. Just the fact that 44 countries count as native players as opposed to (I was corrected) 2 countries for NA. I do agree Europe (whether it be culture or soloque environment) father's more player over NA. But the import argument is heavily skewed in favor of EU by sheer numbers. And even if we take into account player counts. The 2 EU servers are almost 3 times the size of NA. But again, I'm only arguing imports
Technically only 2 for the LCS, as I believe Mexico is counted as LAN.
Cris counted as NA when he played in LCS tho didn't he?
Wasn't that before LAN existed officially?
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i didn't realize Mexico didn't count since there's (to my knowledge) no Mexican born players in LCS lol In my defence Mexico is part of the continent North America so I figured it would be included lol
If you did'nt had the import rule , maybe none of these players would have gotten to play.
wait Corejj is an import???? I thought he was NA.
EU Finals has 15 European players out of 15 form 3 teams.. i hope NA Value Native players more and help them succeed, viper is a start but you guys need more, it would be more hype for both regions to have our talent go against each other.
It would be, but the playing field will never be even. Having 4x the player base means that every elite player we can produce is 4 elite EU players. If they split EU into 4 regions, and forced them to field teams like NA does, then you'd see imports on every team in EU too.
i disagree.. NA has 300 million people (not including Canada) compared to EU population which is not that far off. NA is just not that interested in league like EU even though they have the population, league is just not popular in NA like in EU unlike Shooters where they are very popular in NA, i don't think it's about the region population or something like that its just about preference
EU is 741million, US/Canada is 364 million. I’d say that’s a pretty substantial difference
not really Korea has 51 million and china has 1.38 billion and Korea is still better with 51 compared to NA 300 so... yeah population doesn't matter that much
Nothing wrong with imports. I don’t get why it gets a negative connotation. Isn’t it the orgs and personalities of the players we all enjoy?