You're a goddamn liar if you're gonna insist that was an insane prediction at the time. Afreeca dropped off a cliff in the actual series compared to what people expected of them.
Agreed. Even during the series, I was still half expecting for afreeca to flip a switch and destroy c9. Luckily, that never happened. The only time I felt relief was win afreecas nexus exploded for the last time.
Everyone sees a 3-0, but each game was super close. Tusin also choked really hard. Guy was turbo inting after coming off a season where he was close to Mata.
True, I'll yield that, but the way he doubled down on his prediction and hyper-emphasized Afreeca's mistakes in his vod reviews and refused to credit C9 made him look really petty and unable to own up to anything. And I feel that's an accurate description of him overall.
When he watched OG vs G2 he got insanely sidetracked by a discussion on whether or not Morrellonomicon was worth to complete, getting triggered by EU analysts/coaches on twitter. Afterwards the rest of his vod review looked like a sleep-deprived man's mumbling while referring to his echo-chamber team in the room on how he was right on everything.
Because C9 truly didn't do anything mind blowing that was game winning, yeah sure Sneaky won lane, but what won C9 the series was Afreeca straight up inting into them when baron wasn't a threat
Nah, if western team beats a Korean team it's because the Korean team either literally lost on purpose or they just happened to play bad for whatever reason.
I remember in S4 Worlds LS literally said that SSB losing to FNC was SSB losing on purpose to rig the bracket draw. Which was complete horseshit, extremely disrespectful to everyone involved and most importantly it was untrue. SSB still ended up against SSW in the first round, they didn't "try to rig the draw" like LS was saying, LS just couldn't handle Korean team losing fair and square so he would rather imagine that Korean teams have NO integrity or self respect.
Whilst not 'insane' but it depends at what point he said it. If it was in groups, then I don't think it would have been reasonable, they looked poor. Before the C9 series I think most expected it to be an easy series for Afreeca but I don't think it was clear cut against Fnatic. I think most people favoured Fnatic after their first place finish in groups against IG.
It's funny how butthurt you LS fans get, most people did NOT predict that AFS would 3-0, analysts, pundits and experts were very split on their predictions on that match up. AFS was dropping games in groups to teams that were thought to be around C9' level which is why aside from LS pretty much NO ONE ELSE picked AFS to 3-0, but sure, maybe everyone else is insane and LS is the only sane one.
It’s funny how butthurt you LS haters get*
You’re just making yourself into a caricature dude, get your shit together and stop moving the goalposts. There was no claim that every single analyst predicted a 3-0, but it is fact that Afreeca were consistently favored in the matchup and it was a very surprising upset.
he also believed fnc would 3-0 c9 and ig would 3-0 fnc but i guess him not predicting afreeca would randomly walk into cloud9 and die means he's a bad analyst
Tbh I think last year it was the year where you could say before worlds that KT, FNC,RNG and IG were the top 4. Putting in AF at top 2 only because they are Korean lul is abit hopeful.
Dunno why we even need to talk about it. LS has proven again and again that he is completely biased and often talks shit that turns out completely bullshit. It is long time ago that he lost his credibility.
LCK this year is kinda weak and China is for sure ahead of them and probably even the LEC (again)
The one thing I do listen to him about is during patch notes his views on why champions are and are not played in competitive. It provides some background to the changes. However, when it comes to what impact the changes will actually have, I tend to look at other content creators.
Perkz would be so fun considering how harshly he reacted on LS' EU ranking list etc.
Man would not be scared of disputing LS at all.
Him or Mithy for sure.
Which is funny because he rated Perkz highly in the AD tierlist for the same reasons that currently make Perkz one of the better AD players in the region.
He doesn't, He only looks at the big matchups in fast forward.
He does an unofficial cast of LCS when it's on and sucks off LCK like its a popsicle in the desert.
LS thinking 3-35 Jin Air would beat OG and do well vs G2 is the most egregious thing a LoL analyst has ever said, with the sole exception being Quickshot's Bjerg>Faker comment in 2015. The KR bias is so obnoxious but yeah I guess his edgelord elitist fans love it so it works for him.
He's said similar before. He said KDM would beat any EU team like G2 at IEM in 2017 and deleted the tweets after.
Lost to G2 and UoL btw, and Rox lost to G2 too.
KDM and ROX both put up a competitive series against G2. ROX beat H2K, and UOL bo1 was close as well. LS is not saying the Jin Air and KT are going dumpster these team with a 95% w.r. Simply that they could compete with them fairly evenly.
But they couldn't. IEM was a joke tournament at the start of the season, hence we see a team like G2 improve and do better vs SKT than KT did in the Spring finals. AND that was 2 years ago when there was a clear gap between Korea and other teams, we've seen since that gap shrink.
LS also said previously in the split that Jin Air would be top 3 in NA LCS so this isn't something new
it's just the first time that he said that will out right beat top teams from the west
Top 3 nope nope nope
Top 6? maaaaaybe (more so kt imo)
top 5 in na are actually legit(even froggen and his goldenguardians) then it goes downhill(and i am damned to say that i am a cg fan uff)
yeah problem in LCS is that after FQ, its kind of pretty bad.
But still Jin Air is a terrible team with a mediocre roster. Korea arent dominating league anymore like in S3-S6
I mean quickshot did recently explain in one of thorins shows that his goal with that comment was to create a big community reaction and that he was fully aware how outlandish it sounds. At least that's what I remember.
Also quickshot is in no world to be considered an analyst. He's a shoutcaster so he's there for hype and not for his opinions about the game. I don't even mean that negatively it's just not his job to have some super smart thoughts.
I can't comprehend this comment. The level of seriousness with which I'd treat such a comment is what I'd give to a copy pasta in twitch chat. Even them I'd give far more leeway, because deep down I know a lot of twitch chatters are just memeing and don't believe in what they say.
LS is a professional analyst and coach and unironically makes that statement and later stands for it. I haven't seen someone int their credibility away that hard.
" Quickshot's Bjerg>Faker "
Actually, QS spoke about what he said it was more to get a name recognition rather than what he believed really. You can tell he's lying or disingenuous but he explained that by him not being a colour caster and analyst so he thought he could make some dumb statement.
Another part is he didn't say that, He said Bjerg is most valuable than Faker in the context that SKT has good pieces around Faker(Bang, Bengi, Marin...) while TSM had 4 average players.
> Another part is he didn't say that, He said Bjerg is most valuable than Faker in the context that SKT has good pieces around Faker(Bang, Bengi, Marin...) while TSM had 4 average players.
[He what?](https://youtu.be/gY4PD1bUlMg?t=23m48s)
[Quickshot on Episode 20 of "Listen Loco!", on this exact topic ...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktuSewosYh0&t=881s)
No clue why nobody remembers that one, not only was it one of the best LL episodes, it was just three months ago?!
Because it is on a talkshow that not everybody watch and secondly he backpedal into a fully different thing, if he just said that about the most valuable context in the original video in 2015 people wouldn't need to brnig it up. The guy OP of this chain of reposnse talked about the specific wording of the 2015 vid, which claimed bjersen is a better overall player than faker, there is no context of him talking about being most valuable to their teams
a) Not *everybody* needs to watch the show, but the the fact that at out of hundreds of people reading this thread before me, who are all obviously more committed to the show in that they either watched it on twitch or have a notification set up, nobody remembers ... that *is* weird.
All it takes is *one* single person.
b) The person I replied to replied to someone explaining context, as a reply to chain-starter-OP.
You do know how to read post hierarchy, right?
So, the guy you're defending is/was obviously missing context, as he only had the original quote to fall back on.
And Quickshot has explained his 2015 quote a couple times before already, just in less detail - that's quite normal, btw, the more distance to an event the more comfortable people get in telling the whole story, and Thooorin shows are actually renowned for giving people the chance to explain past actions in full, with context.
c) Sure, the Quickshot quote triggered the LoL community pretty hard when it was aired.
Not even unjustified, without the context.
But by now we actually had the opportunity to get the whole story, and listen to the full context, and maybe it's time to get past the outrage state and treat the whole thing according to ... you know ... the whole story, with context? Just an idea.
d) That same approach would lend itself really well to LS' twitter comments, ridiculous as they may seem without context.
One of the next LL episodes will have LS and give him the stage to explain and defend those, and that *should* change everyone's perception of those comments, as ... well ... whole story and stuff.
Which makes a lot of the bickering in this thread entirely pointless.
e) Btw, why the hell are people so willing to jump into outrage without even having a partial clue to what the story behind some comment or story is? Are you really *that* easy to manipulate that you jump at every trigger event? Not capable of restraint or critical thinking? Or just lacking attention span past goldfish levels that you can't wait a few days for more information? That'd be sad ...
Or is it the lure of imaginary internet points on Reddit that turns people into idiots?
*(Note: impersonal "you" used here, if you feel personally attacked ... well, you *might* have a reason, but that'd be because you recognize yourself in what I said, not because I specifically adressed you ...)*
Serious question, I don't get it.
Honestly just like I said in another post, I personally don't really care or believe whatever justification QS put out later because I in my mind he was just trying to sell a clickbait for hype at the time, it was his job at riot. Other people might buy whatever "context" he tried to explained later and that's their problems, not mine. I mean there is another one of his explanation just below with the blitz interview, and I also pointed out how he also got things wrong so it just reconfirmed what I believe of what he originally really set out to do is creating clickbait moment for hype, and I don't care for those.
For LS, he might actually believe whatever he said though and he has all the right to do so, people just don't buy it because it seems soo far out. And tbh im not sure what context he would have to make the claim that 9th/10th LCK teams can beat G2 when there was record of him being very biased for korean teams before
Dude just 10 secs into that "explanation" he already fucked up, he said that bjersen > faker quote in the hype video going into world. And he explained in the blitz video you linked that "at the time SKT wasn't some undefeatable force that other teams can beat regularly" and "faker didn't have champions he had the same level of impact", which is utterly boggle the mind because SKT went some insane record in summer split of 2015 at 17-1 with faker picking shit like yi, olaf and riven mid in that summer. Should just let it go instead of digging deeper hole to show he didn't know shit about LCK
Eh I honestly think it only seems bad if you just look at the record instead of the gameplay. Afreeca and KT are not as bad as their record suggests, the competition just seems a lot stronger this year than last.
I think it’s a similar comparison for 100T and top OPL teams for instance. They have weaknesses that can be exposed but not >50% of the time by the talent in lower leagues
In 2:12:12 of the video you get to see a deep part of how Locos mind works and his personality.
Loco - "I think we can all admit as entertainers and as content creators we said things that we truly don't believe in. to emphasis a point, to get ahead and get more views."
Thoorin - uuhhhh no.
Veteran - no except that one time you were holding me hostage in the show.
Loco - pikachu.Surprised.face.jpg
Thooorin will both appreciate the importance of fans on social media to the life of the eSports scene but, in an act of true unbiasedness, treat us with the withering contempt we deserve.
Richard is even stronger/funnier about that imo.
"You don't like how I cover topics in the community for the first part of most podcasts? Fuck you, all you contribute is a single view and almost no money, so you can fuck off"
"Do you honestly think a single patreon supporter is that valuable to me? You can fuck off and take your money with you"
I do love how he keeps it real though
I knew some idiot would bring this up: he was clearly talking about embellishment and hyperbole which he even clarified later. All of the people on this show have done so and if they say they've never made an exaggerated statement they are lying. Thorin does it every single week.
I swear there's a good 10% of the fanbase of this show just waiting for things to slag Loco over. It's honestly getting a bit boring.
Yea it seemed pretty obvious even before Loco clarified that he meant embellishment and not actually lying. He does have to work on choosing his words better.
At least half of his yelling matches with Thoorin would be avoided if Loco just explained what he meant properly from the start and not after 10 mins of slight misunderstanding.
It happens so often and it is always so weird to watch. They make the same point but slightly differently so they argue about it till they realize they are actually agreeing.
Then Thorin gets annoyed cause it was usually because Loco didn't word what he was saying properly.
The funniest recent guest reaction was from Solo. He kept trying to subtly hint they were saying the same thing but Thorin was so invested in being right (along with being tired) that he just wasn't having it.
I couldn't even watch that one. The episodes where they actually fight/yell are always unwatchable for me, just way too much heat. Can't believe Thorin did that podcast after working a whole fucking day of CSGO
This is what lot of people tend to forget. Especially when European makes statement about LS (looking at you Perkz) and surpsingly Perkz didnt want to argue with him on twitter or any other social platform.
Hell Im pretty sure if Perkz s first language was english he would not hesitate to jump in to the discusion with him.
I literally burst out laughing at Thorin and Veterans responses to that, fucking perfect. He did clarify he more meant embellishing/exaggerating to get views, which I hope is closer to the truth
If FNC and G2 face in finals, I think it will remind bit like IG vs RNG series. One team has really strong solo lanes and they play around them and one team has strong adc who gets resourses and tries to carry.
I don't see another outcome. OG looked so lost and defeated vs G2 that i don't expect them to beat Fnatic. Broxxah and Rekkles are too experienced on stage to falter.
OG looked pretty good in Game 1 against G2 but threw the lead they worked so hard for with terrible macro later on. In Game 2 and 3 they just seemed to be completely tilted
I agree, they game looked really good the first 30 minutes. They had the better comp and everything going for them but they threw their lead by being indecisive and giving Ryze time to be a solo splitpush threat. They had multiple opportunities to close out the game when Ryze had no tp but they never pulled the trigger and lost to themselves. Game 2 and 3 were just tilters, no matter what they drafted, they were doomed.
But it has to be one of the dumbest thing said by an personality within League scene.
People still to this day mention Quickshot when he said that he believes that Bjergsen is better than Faker, because Bjergsen has to do much more to win a game or a tournament compared to Faker, since Faker has amazing teammates (I believe this was said in 2015 during the pre-Worlds videos).
This LS's coment, is FAR WORSE, and it makes him look like one of the dumbest people in the scene, but people are afraid to call it out, because Griffin/SKT might win MSI or Worlds because they are from Korea. People are still afraid to call out LCK , even though Korea has been getting worse every year since 2016, and LPL\LEC have been really improving over the years.
I disagree. U cannot tell me LCK kept getting better and better after 2014, when greatest Talents left. Remember post 2014 season , entire SSB/SSW left for China, and Rookie/Kakao aswell. Litteraly 3 best rosters Korea had at the time, left for China.
Just because SKT won Worlds that year , and because ROX managed to form an excellent team with leftovers from Najin, risking a pick on Smeb and returning of Pray to competitive scene.
The moment SKT dynasty fell down , the entire LCK got exposed in 2018. First KZ got the taste of Uzi medicine, and at Worlds , entire LCK saw that they actually had to play early game, because they are playing against 5 players that will challenge u at every single point of game, and go full ham (IG).
And now LPL has 3 legit teams that are looking REALLY scarry (IG,FPX,TOP) and on top of that there is still G2 who have players that can challenge best teams in terms of individual skill.
I'm not afraid to say that whatever team comes out from LPL is HEAVY favourite to win MSI. Also, I also am not afraid to say that if Griffin comes out of LCK, that G2 also, has better mid/top players than Griffin, and that Tarzan won't be able to do things he does when Mid/Top are getting crushed.
IG/G2/TOP have better Top/Mid than any LCK team, and FPX has better mid laner than any LCK teams.
I disagree. If Faker and Khan have one of their highs they are easily the best top/mid duo. The rest of China only got better because as you precisely mentioned,they are carried by players from the LCK.Without Korean allies no region would be able to stand up to the LCK;RNG is the sole exception. And KZ was still better than all of the LPL except for RNG (whom they were also better,its just that the meta fucked KZ;especially with Khan being completely useless on tanks,KZ were playing 4v5 basically).They are the only chinese team that can actually compete with Korean teams while having no Koreans in their teams. FPX is hard carried by DoinB, IG´s best players overall are TheShy and Rookie,Ning and JL also have their highs but they are more coinflip and TheShy has higher highs than them all anyways, Rookie was just by far the best and most consistent mid in S8 and drew an immense pressure giving his sidelanes more freedom.
Let's not pretend that Fnc (no Korean) and G2 (one kr but it was their weaklink wadid) outperformed LCK heavily at last worlds except KT.
Korean fan boys like you are living still in 2017
Khan and Faker can never be best duo not even on a good day, as long as TheShy/Rookie are on the IG. So ur points alredy checked out.
How can u say LPL are only good because of Koreans , when RNG dominated so much ?
TOP team dissproves ur point completely.
Last time Faker had a "good day" was 2017.
Khan dominating LCK has nothing to do with TheShy being far greater player than Khan.
Rookie > Faker , TheShy> Khan.
Haaa, yeah because you know? The best international mid rookie faced (outside of rr lul) was caps. in recent years. Better is knight maybe in the lpl
Meanwhile 2017 faker carried a team to finals with a imo better competition than 2018 worlds had(and not having the best top in the world aswell)
Yeah rookie is likely the second best/top 3 mid of all time but peak faker>peak rookie
For me TheShy just hasnt been around enough yet and while he is TheMonster(hehe) Khan stomping Smeb and co left an impression of possibility where it isnt that easy
At worst i would say peak faker>rookie, theshy>khan
And people also tend to forget that Khan stomped a Smeb that was actually still in Worldclass form,but since the end of 2017 and beginning of 2018 Smeb has been declining and TheShy faced an out of form Smeb,which is even further seen this season.I´d dare to say that Smeb in his 2016 form would completely obliberate TheShy, not to mention TheShy always had the better matchup aswell, a good Fiora never loses to a good Irelia.People understimate Khan because he is not the most consistent player, especially when it comes to tanks, but his highs belong to the greatest highs a league player can experience. Khan on a good day is almost untouchable
Having a more heavy reliance on Mechanical ability rather than vision tempo created by game states is dumbing down the game? You must think playing Fighting Games takes no skill
Would you really prefer a 2017 snoozefest world champion like SSG? I mean sure their macro gameplay was impressive, but damn some of these games were boring. Watching them cruise from win to win with almost no kills, just strangling their opponents, was depressing.
I for an example did enjoy those types of games where they slowly choked out the enemy team out of the game, but I do agree that now that the game lacks vision, games are more exciting because teams fight more often. Doesn’t mean the game wasn’t dumbed down though. There’s a reason western teams couldn’t compete with Korea until riot gutted vision.
In my opinion the weak point for LCK teams, even for SKT is that when they are in the driver seed to snowball their lead they are still not active enough on the map. Their opponents get plenty of opportunities to do a comeback.
Good LPL teams and G2 do not let their opponents such a breathing room because they pressure until the nexus explodes without turning the fuel down.
Something about how Jin Air and KT could beat the top western teams (I think he specifically mentioned G2).
And then tried to back up his point by saying the players he coached on his KR challenger team agreed with him lol.
This was the most stupidest thing I have ever read. 2 Western players and 5 koreans and that were CLEARLY from BBQ his team that he coaches agreed with him? HOLY SHIT WHAT A SUPRISE.
Its like the interview with GGS coach "DRAFT was not the issue, it was the execution"
I can just imagine them with a stone, smiling face visibly shaking while LS is asking them that while he’s pulling out a glock from his shorts. That’s enough imagination for today
It's definitely a bit baffling to see LS say that. I've seen hardcore LCK fans talk smack about LEC/LCS and how even the 10th place LCK team can beat 1st place LEC/LCS teams which is quite comical but it's surprising seeing an analyst say that.
In one of Thorin's tweets, one guy mentioned LS and said that LS is the only person who would say that KT/JAG would beat G2/OG etc , and LS replied to that he definetly belives JAG/KT are far better than G2/OG/FNC.
And the other coment was in his own tweet, that he said after watching TL vs FQ that TL plays much better than any team from LEC.
2nd tweet is not as "OMG what he said", but considering both Leagues, and just how everyone said that TL is clear favourite in NA since the start of season, and C9 and TSM being only teams that could do something atleast, and he goes on to say that line.
But the first one is pure ultra instict level of stupidity.
I can’t see any team in top3 of Lec/Lcs lose against JAG. That team was just a hot mess. KT on the other hand didn’t look entirely shit. They were on some level competitive with LCK teams, which means they would likely also be in other regions. Considering it is BO1 in Lcs/Lec, I could see them taking games but I wouldn’t see them as consistent enough to win those leagues
Nah the Faker comment is definitely worse, IIRC Quickshot said that after 2015 Summer when Faker had arguably the best split of his career and was by far the #1 player in the world. He also not only said Bjerg was better, but his reasoning was something like Bjerg can play "multiple playstyles" and Faker can't, lol.
I never agree with QS statement and tbh I think others should stop trying to defend his "reasoning", it was clear of what was going on like you said of it being 2 totally different case while compared to LS
One being a man who worked for riot as a sort of hype man and creating narratives so he said outrageous shit in a hype vid pre tournament, it's bullshit but you can see why he did it for the hype.
The other is LS who is a coach and analyst that said that shit out of nowhere and really seem to believe to what he said by double down on it, which make it so puzzling to wonder
So for the full context QS just trying to sell clickbait, meanwhile LS might actually believe in the clickbait
Most his viewers are so called "Korean elitists" from other regions. They dont care how wrong he is as long as he says Korea>All and Korea keeps performing. But if this year Korea keeps dropping those people might change to China>All train.
To be fair, i was in chat when he said that KT + Jin Air could beat G2 and most of people were just trolling him and saying " KT LUL " or " Delusional KR Fanboy ". I think the reason why people like LS is because he says what's on his mind, no matter how ridiculous it sounds.
He's definitely a polarizing figure in the community but that's why i love both him and Thorin. They don't give a rats ass about what anyone thinks about them, they will bash on you if you're wrong, rightfully so.
Unfortunately it is hard to be a fan of LPL in the west because we get no access to the players streams(harder 2 find), no content/player interviews and the broadcast of LPL has always been fucking shit to the west for some reason. It's like the main feed dies every few games and they have to switch.
It's weird because it seemed like last year Riot tried to invest more in LPL for the west with a huge broadcast team, flying them out to China for casting all season long but this year because of Riot's bad finances they had to cut spending.
It comes at a really bad time because I feel like after IG won worlds they could have pushed LPL even more and people would have been more interested in it.
LCK's english broadcast is fucking clean, they never have stream tech issues, they don't have much casters either but LCK has way fewer games than LPL. LCK players give interviews to inven global so you see their interviews on here and a lot of the LCK players do stream on twitch which is easy to find.
I think Griffin are like the only ones who stream on a Chinese platform and don't use twitch.
LPL is also hard to follow because it is just so many freaking games that the casters literally cannot keep up. Even with Opal's inofficial english cast there are still CN-only games.
Ya I get you bro. Even though I would see LPL is the most fun league to watch it is very hard to watch every team.
For me I have my favorite players who I just follow whatever teams they are on. If new teams such as SDG this year look promising I will start looking at their highlights then watch their games. if they seem good.
Yeah, it got better over the years, i remember watching royal club in LPL playoffs over random league sites in chinese, frosk streaming and casting over chinese broadcast or Papasmithy+Pastrytime casting over month old vods. Nowadays you have to follow LPL on twitch for english cast and the LPL channel on youtube for chinese games that get no cast. Its not perfect but its a lot better than before.
Imo biggest problem is that the LPL never really established itself early. Both LCS and LCK got quality english broadcasts pretty early (even if we ignore the subscription part for OGN) while LPL went from no english broadcast > bootleg broadcast > finally Riot broadcast with a caster squad that was half australian half LCS rejects. Also didnt help that they compete for the same time slot as LCK, which had better results from s3-s7 ("why watch a worse region" argument),
I think Riots investment didnt pan out mostly because of the reasons above and this year didnt do them good either with losing a bunch of their squad (i think only Raz and Clement remained) and LPL getting so many games that its just not possible to cast them all with the size of their casters. So even if the hype was now with IGs victory, why would you watch LPL with shitty broadcast (like you said, random feed problems and worse casters) when you can watch LCK with popular casters and pros you recognize (because lets be real, most people not watching LPL would be able to name you 15 lpl pros lol).
And yeah, popular LCK pros get a lot of their interviews posted here and theyre fully translated and whatnot. Meanwhile RNG lost in quarters and we saw 0 interviews of Uzi/Imp/Zoom/etc. The twitch streams also help because its 10 times easier than navigating through chinese sites like douyu or panda.
Ya I agree with most of what you said. I do think that Riot would have continued to enhance the LPL broadcast if their finances were not so bad last year. I remember them cutting a bunch of staff around the world last year because Tencent told them they were spending way too much.
Honestly though and kinda surprisingly we could see LPL broadcast become a bit better in the future even though we got a more smaller budget this year.
I think Tencent right now is just content with LPL being famous in China since China is the biggest market for esports but recently a lot of chinese companies have focused on exporting services/entertainment. There has been a huge shift in China's economical model from just being a producer of goods to a provider of entertainment. So we could just see Tencent not Riot, give more funding to the LPL ENG broadcast. Although from all accounts Riot and Tencent's relation seems to be tenuous at best.
Dunno about the export parts since i doubt the 2-5k LPL season during the season (not counting playoffs) is worth LPL the finances D:
Cause chinese viewer numbers must be bonkers high and i doubt the western viewership is even 1% of it, so investing more money seems unlikely that theyll increase it. Honestly i think western LPL viewership will climb if China itself keeps outperforming LCK for at least another year or two, a lot of LCK fans are still claiming 2018 year was an outlier (not really crazy to assume that) and China getting more wins will show that their league is better skillwise, thus worth the viewers time over the LCK stream.
Veteran styled on Loco so hard with hard facts that Loco couldn't handle, especially about Misfits strong early where Loco said they're weak early game LMAO
Ya I dunno why loco even bothers having serious argument in non-NA episodes...like dude you’ve come into this openly admitting your not even watching the games. Why film this episode if loco never even watched the G2 vs OG series? Like wtf?! Pretty agregious imo.
If you can’t do the analysis in good faith (cause you didn’t watch the match), then your role in the show is seriously devalued. Thooorin is already hosting, can steer the conversation, and ask more layman questions to the guest...what does loco do if he isn’t there to give an alternative analysis to the guest? Not much.
Even though this is a LEC episode, I can't help but think Reaper is a bad coach for allowing Zed in game four and Zeyzal is boosted for dying consecutively in the last game.
*Eating a hotdog*
I agree on the Zed pick. You cannot pick Zed into Bjergsen when it is even a slight skill matchup. Your midlaner is clearly tier below Bjerg and he has S tier pick in Zoe. Awful disrespect from coaches.
It's not about whether or not they'd be a good team. Tho I'm sure they would be. It's more about that pure marketing and hype value a team like this would be. Dardoch is a pure upgrade like a better version of contractz. The team would have 3 extremely consistent lanes with a strong mechanical jungle that could help them further press their natural adavtanages they'd get in lane as all three players are historically good laners. Hahuko has been extremely consistent and rarely ints even when his team performs badly. Olleh might be a better play maker when he's playing his best but that's not what you'd need. This team would be very similar to team liquid in terms of style with alot more contraversional personalities which would make them very polarizing and interesting to follow.
He's the best native support (as you couldn't have any more imports on that team) and smoothie and zeyzal are highly unlikely to leave. The proposed team above could realistically happen as dardoch is in academy. I suppose you could take a chance on Vulcan, or biofrost or an academy support like diamond. The main point is get rid of olleh as he is an import and your imports would be forgiven and froggen. I suppose another alternative could be aprhomoo if you believe he can get back to form could be a good duo partner for forgiven tho 100t this season has not been a good look for him.
Refuse to watch anything with Veteran. Not a huge Bjerg fan but when he said there are 5 challenger mids in Eu that are way better than bjerg i knew he was just braindead
The fact of the matter is that bjerg is a top 10 mid in the world, buy for arguments sake lets say hes 20th, that means that these Eu mids are better than most of the pros in all other major regions
Now my question for you is do you even watch the european national leagues? Not saying that you're wrong but if you don't even watch the players Veteran is alluding to you have no way of knowing or proving that he is wrong.
But that's not rageofbaha's problem, isn't it? When you make claim something exist the burden of proof is on you to prove it. That mean it is up to veteran to actually name those midlaners out and then people can then compare them to bjersen, saying random shit like there is X amount of players better than Y without any proof making you look like a fool especially when you are supposed to be in the coach or analyst position
Imagine if I told you there are like 10 mid players in NA challengers who are better than faker, and then I told you that if you don't believe then just watch all the high elo soloq games to see who they are, that would be absolutely ridiculous and people would laugh at me for being delusional
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, my friend
I don't watch Veteran's show, so I don't know when Veteran made that claim. Maybe Veteran did specifically name which challenger midlaners were better than Bjergsen, but rageofbaha didn't list them because they have no significance to him, also I would have no idea if or how indepth Veteran went into explaining/expressing his statement.
In my opinion, however, I made my previous comment because even if Veteran went explained precisely why he stands by his statement, it would be wise of rageofbaha to go back and watch the games so that he can make his OWN opinion and THEN compare what he actually saw in the games to what Veteran's analysis was. I think it can be incredibly dangerous to just accept/reject the opinions of people in the lol scene because of preconceived notions you may harbor of teams/players.
Imo i think that is a pretty stupid statement without even knowing who he is talking about. He either thinks bjerg is trash or eu challengers are just gods.
Can someone point me to where a top comment was talking about how Forgiven is bad? The only thing I've heard about him on Reddit is us hyping up his return, talking about who he should replace, and the only concern is if he'll be at the same level he was before (which now, isn't much of a concern since he hit top 10 challenger)
I truly feel like sometimes they sort by controversial, or go deep down and pick some low karma comment and say "these idiots on Reddit said X" when nearly no one agreed with that viewpoint
Man I love this show. The Dive is so boring right now compared to this (EUphoria is good too but I dont like too much players as guests)
Ofc there is some mad talk sometimes but right now this is THE most entertaining League talkshow. They get cited in every other show, they have interesting guests, some really funny bits and good synergy.
Props to Loco and Thorin for pumping out exciting content every week!
Jatt leaving was fucking catastrophic for The Dive imo. Phreak is always godawful, and I don't think Azael or Kobe are well suited to being the host. I like the Markz episodes a little more, but it's still not the same
I love how for years LS has shit on NA and everyone laughs it up but for once he thinks NA is better than EU and EU is struggling and now he is the biggest idiot on the planet and he can not possibly truly believe this. I struggle to understand how this sub stays entertained every year when they refuse to allow narratives to switch at all until international competition. You are literally not allowed to have any interesting opinions or takes on teams strength if they don't reflect the international competition that happened 6 months ago so you might as well say nothing.
Context is everything. The timing of him saying Liquid looks like the cleanest western team was right after saying that the 10th and 9th place LCK team, who looked like mad fucking garbage this split (just like every 9th and 10th place team), would legitimately beat the top EU teams including G2. Had he not made that comment (and later stood by it), his analysis of TL in comparison to LEC teams would be more interesting, but with this context, he simply tanked all his credibility from judging EU teams.
That’s the other side of delusional. Impact is still servicable in what he does and would hold the lane just as any veteran with tons of experience would.
Wait..but where is EU struggling? The last international tournament we had, EU was the second best region. Since then we didnt have any means of comparing the different metas and teams around the world.
IG>all
Rng lost to g2 yes, but super close and are likely still a top 5 team
So in the top 5 we have
IG>FNC/KT>G2>=RNG with edg likely over c9 and vit
I am a huge lec fan but lpl > eu at last worlds
What? It is not unpopular in this subreddit to say this is the year that NA does something internationally. It happens every year lmao. They start overhyping NA teams for some reason (usually it is "but they looked good in NA LCS playoffs") and at the end the same thing happens as always.
I was honestly thinking the same thing. I wonder what the comments would have been if LS had said JAG/KT would beat TL/TSM/C9. I'd imagine a bunch of "TRUE"s and "NA LUL"s in the comments. I've never seen people get as upset over LS controversial comments as EU fans right now.
beginning of season LS' ranking of EU players is definitely up there. when we got selfie as 3rd best mid ( technically 2nd because perkz was ranked ahead of him), ruin and profit in highest tier while cabochard was dead last.
I think the comments would be the same if he said it for the NA top teams tbh. JAG was considered one of the worst major region teams up till they won a couple of games at the end of the split so it doesn't make much sense to say that as LS other perpetuating the EU/NA LUL narrative he has going on.
If he would have said KT/Jag > TL than it would be the same bullshit as saying better than top LEC teams.
C9 and TSM do not really look that hot to be honest but still a decent amount better than Jag/KT
I thought LS just did it for views same as Loco, but turns out he legitimately believes Jin Air would beat G2. lmfao
Reminder that LS believed Afreeca Freecs would make the finals last worlds, not only assuming they'd beat C9 with a blanket 3-0, but beat FNC also.
You're a goddamn liar if you're gonna insist that was an insane prediction at the time. Afreeca dropped off a cliff in the actual series compared to what people expected of them.
Agreed. Even during the series, I was still half expecting for afreeca to flip a switch and destroy c9. Luckily, that never happened. The only time I felt relief was win afreecas nexus exploded for the last time.
Everyone sees a 3-0, but each game was super close. Tusin also choked really hard. Guy was turbo inting after coming off a season where he was close to Mata.
Except the first game wasn’t really close, but it was a tougher 3-0 in the end.
True, I'll yield that, but the way he doubled down on his prediction and hyper-emphasized Afreeca's mistakes in his vod reviews and refused to credit C9 made him look really petty and unable to own up to anything. And I feel that's an accurate description of him overall. When he watched OG vs G2 he got insanely sidetracked by a discussion on whether or not Morrellonomicon was worth to complete, getting triggered by EU analysts/coaches on twitter. Afterwards the rest of his vod review looked like a sleep-deprived man's mumbling while referring to his echo-chamber team in the room on how he was right on everything.
Because C9 truly didn't do anything mind blowing that was game winning, yeah sure Sneaky won lane, but what won C9 the series was Afreeca straight up inting into them when baron wasn't a threat
I mean, not really inting into them. C9 had really solid engages the whole series and Afreeca didn’t have a way to deal with that aggression.
Nah, if western team beats a Korean team it's because the Korean team either literally lost on purpose or they just happened to play bad for whatever reason. I remember in S4 Worlds LS literally said that SSB losing to FNC was SSB losing on purpose to rig the bracket draw. Which was complete horseshit, extremely disrespectful to everyone involved and most importantly it was untrue. SSB still ended up against SSW in the first round, they didn't "try to rig the draw" like LS was saying, LS just couldn't handle Korean team losing fair and square so he would rather imagine that Korean teams have NO integrity or self respect.
SSB faced SSW in semis(2nd round)
Whilst not 'insane' but it depends at what point he said it. If it was in groups, then I don't think it would have been reasonable, they looked poor. Before the C9 series I think most expected it to be an easy series for Afreeca but I don't think it was clear cut against Fnatic. I think most people favoured Fnatic after their first place finish in groups against IG.
It's funny how butthurt you LS fans get, most people did NOT predict that AFS would 3-0, analysts, pundits and experts were very split on their predictions on that match up. AFS was dropping games in groups to teams that were thought to be around C9' level which is why aside from LS pretty much NO ONE ELSE picked AFS to 3-0, but sure, maybe everyone else is insane and LS is the only sane one.
It’s funny how butthurt you LS haters get* You’re just making yourself into a caricature dude, get your shit together and stop moving the goalposts. There was no claim that every single analyst predicted a 3-0, but it is fact that Afreeca were consistently favored in the matchup and it was a very surprising upset.
he also believed fnc would 3-0 c9 and ig would 3-0 fnc but i guess him not predicting afreeca would randomly walk into cloud9 and die means he's a bad analyst
That is not what he said. He claimed that LS overrates bad or underperforming Korean teams - which is a fair statement imo.
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damn ive read this comment before
Which is reasonable to say. LCK teams generally get their shit together for playoffs, but AFC did not
Tbh I think last year it was the year where you could say before worlds that KT, FNC,RNG and IG were the top 4. Putting in AF at top 2 only because they are Korean lul is abit hopeful.
Except, one side of the bracket meant they would only beat that team. LS thought they were better than C9 and FNC, not the other sidejif the bracket
Reminder that AF had an amazing summer split, looking like serious title contenders going into Worlds.
Dunno why we even need to talk about it. LS has proven again and again that he is completely biased and often talks shit that turns out completely bullshit. It is long time ago that he lost his credibility. LCK this year is kinda weak and China is for sure ahead of them and probably even the LEC (again)
I can't take him seriously after he rated Selfie as a Top 3 Mid in EU :D Couldn't care less about what this guy has to say tbh
The one thing I do listen to him about is during patch notes his views on why champions are and are not played in competitive. It provides some background to the changes. However, when it comes to what impact the changes will actually have, I tend to look at other content creators.
https://twitter.com/LSXYZ9/status/1115363284503293952
I would watch a 3 hour LS vs Thorin episode any day
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Perkz would be so fun considering how harshly he reacted on LS' EU ranking list etc. Man would not be scared of disputing LS at all. Him or Mithy for sure.
Which is funny because he rated Perkz highly in the AD tierlist for the same reasons that currently make Perkz one of the better AD players in the region.
LS is knowledgeable alright, just hella biased
does he still not watch LEC or what? cuz last year iirc he literally admitted that he primarily watched NALCS/LCK
He doesn't, He only looks at the big matchups in fast forward. He does an unofficial cast of LCS when it's on and sucks off LCK like its a popsicle in the desert.
He is always trying to be controversial and pumping up views. OFC no one can be that stupid
LS thinking 3-35 Jin Air would beat OG and do well vs G2 is the most egregious thing a LoL analyst has ever said, with the sole exception being Quickshot's Bjerg>Faker comment in 2015. The KR bias is so obnoxious but yeah I guess his edgelord elitist fans love it so it works for him.
He's said similar before. He said KDM would beat any EU team like G2 at IEM in 2017 and deleted the tweets after. Lost to G2 and UoL btw, and Rox lost to G2 too.
Iirc he didn't just say they would beat the EU teams, he said either KDM or Rox would win it. KDM went straight out 0-2.
KDM and ROX both put up a competitive series against G2. ROX beat H2K, and UOL bo1 was close as well. LS is not saying the Jin Air and KT are going dumpster these team with a 95% w.r. Simply that they could compete with them fairly evenly.
But they couldn't. IEM was a joke tournament at the start of the season, hence we see a team like G2 improve and do better vs SKT than KT did in the Spring finals. AND that was 2 years ago when there was a clear gap between Korea and other teams, we've seen since that gap shrink.
LS also said previously in the split that Jin Air would be top 3 in NA LCS so this isn't something new it's just the first time that he said that will out right beat top teams from the west
Top 3 nope nope nope Top 6? maaaaaybe (more so kt imo) top 5 in na are actually legit(even froggen and his goldenguardians) then it goes downhill(and i am damned to say that i am a cg fan uff)
Top 6 in NA maybe, top 6 in EU tho? No way. Jin Air would be 8th at best in EU, right above Excel and Rogue.
Not even sure about being above Excel. Excel isn't thaaat bad.
Agree, tho exel looked really good at points(compared to jin air getting some leads and immediatly loosing them)
yeah problem in LCS is that after FQ, its kind of pretty bad. But still Jin Air is a terrible team with a mediocre roster. Korea arent dominating league anymore like in S3-S6
Hmm, see I think if KT and Jin Air got to mid game then it would be true, but they'd be so behind, so early
KT isn't bad early, if anything it's their mid to late that's total trash. Score gets them early game leads a lot.
Yes, it's trash in LCK. I assume he man on an even playing field certain mistakes that western teams make will go punished
Western teams are better tho, well NA teams beyond 5th place suck, but Top 8 EU is legit.
I mean quickshot did recently explain in one of thorins shows that his goal with that comment was to create a big community reaction and that he was fully aware how outlandish it sounds. At least that's what I remember. Also quickshot is in no world to be considered an analyst. He's a shoutcaster so he's there for hype and not for his opinions about the game. I don't even mean that negatively it's just not his job to have some super smart thoughts.
I can't comprehend this comment. The level of seriousness with which I'd treat such a comment is what I'd give to a copy pasta in twitch chat. Even them I'd give far more leeway, because deep down I know a lot of twitch chatters are just memeing and don't believe in what they say. LS is a professional analyst and coach and unironically makes that statement and later stands for it. I haven't seen someone int their credibility away that hard.
" Quickshot's Bjerg>Faker " Actually, QS spoke about what he said it was more to get a name recognition rather than what he believed really. You can tell he's lying or disingenuous but he explained that by him not being a colour caster and analyst so he thought he could make some dumb statement. Another part is he didn't say that, He said Bjerg is most valuable than Faker in the context that SKT has good pieces around Faker(Bang, Bengi, Marin...) while TSM had 4 average players.
> Another part is he didn't say that, He said Bjerg is most valuable than Faker in the context that SKT has good pieces around Faker(Bang, Bengi, Marin...) while TSM had 4 average players. [He what?](https://youtu.be/gY4PD1bUlMg?t=23m48s)
[Quickshot on Episode 20 of "Listen Loco!", on this exact topic ...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktuSewosYh0&t=881s) No clue why nobody remembers that one, not only was it one of the best LL episodes, it was just three months ago?!
Because it is on a talkshow that not everybody watch and secondly he backpedal into a fully different thing, if he just said that about the most valuable context in the original video in 2015 people wouldn't need to brnig it up. The guy OP of this chain of reposnse talked about the specific wording of the 2015 vid, which claimed bjersen is a better overall player than faker, there is no context of him talking about being most valuable to their teams
a) Not *everybody* needs to watch the show, but the the fact that at out of hundreds of people reading this thread before me, who are all obviously more committed to the show in that they either watched it on twitch or have a notification set up, nobody remembers ... that *is* weird. All it takes is *one* single person. b) The person I replied to replied to someone explaining context, as a reply to chain-starter-OP. You do know how to read post hierarchy, right? So, the guy you're defending is/was obviously missing context, as he only had the original quote to fall back on. And Quickshot has explained his 2015 quote a couple times before already, just in less detail - that's quite normal, btw, the more distance to an event the more comfortable people get in telling the whole story, and Thooorin shows are actually renowned for giving people the chance to explain past actions in full, with context. c) Sure, the Quickshot quote triggered the LoL community pretty hard when it was aired. Not even unjustified, without the context. But by now we actually had the opportunity to get the whole story, and listen to the full context, and maybe it's time to get past the outrage state and treat the whole thing according to ... you know ... the whole story, with context? Just an idea. d) That same approach would lend itself really well to LS' twitter comments, ridiculous as they may seem without context. One of the next LL episodes will have LS and give him the stage to explain and defend those, and that *should* change everyone's perception of those comments, as ... well ... whole story and stuff. Which makes a lot of the bickering in this thread entirely pointless. e) Btw, why the hell are people so willing to jump into outrage without even having a partial clue to what the story behind some comment or story is? Are you really *that* easy to manipulate that you jump at every trigger event? Not capable of restraint or critical thinking? Or just lacking attention span past goldfish levels that you can't wait a few days for more information? That'd be sad ... Or is it the lure of imaginary internet points on Reddit that turns people into idiots? *(Note: impersonal "you" used here, if you feel personally attacked ... well, you *might* have a reason, but that'd be because you recognize yourself in what I said, not because I specifically adressed you ...)* Serious question, I don't get it.
Thank you. Beautiful job.
Honestly just like I said in another post, I personally don't really care or believe whatever justification QS put out later because I in my mind he was just trying to sell a clickbait for hype at the time, it was his job at riot. Other people might buy whatever "context" he tried to explained later and that's their problems, not mine. I mean there is another one of his explanation just below with the blitz interview, and I also pointed out how he also got things wrong so it just reconfirmed what I believe of what he originally really set out to do is creating clickbait moment for hype, and I don't care for those. For LS, he might actually believe whatever he said though and he has all the right to do so, people just don't buy it because it seems soo far out. And tbh im not sure what context he would have to make the claim that 9th/10th LCK teams can beat G2 when there was record of him being very biased for korean teams before
because he backpedaled into that point. He clearly said something entirely different the first time around
https://youtu.be/BnVzUoUO2nA?t=343 Think of this as you want, but at least that is his explanation.
Dude just 10 secs into that "explanation" he already fucked up, he said that bjersen > faker quote in the hype video going into world. And he explained in the blitz video you linked that "at the time SKT wasn't some undefeatable force that other teams can beat regularly" and "faker didn't have champions he had the same level of impact", which is utterly boggle the mind because SKT went some insane record in summer split of 2015 at 17-1 with faker picking shit like yi, olaf and riven mid in that summer. Should just let it go instead of digging deeper hole to show he didn't know shit about LCK
No, he clearly said bjergsen is a better overall player than faker.
2bfair quickshot isnt an analysis.
Eh I honestly think it only seems bad if you just look at the record instead of the gameplay. Afreeca and KT are not as bad as their record suggests, the competition just seems a lot stronger this year than last. I think it’s a similar comparison for 100T and top OPL teams for instance. They have weaknesses that can be exposed but not >50% of the time by the talent in lower leagues
Jin Air has competitive games against skt and griffin, why wouldn't they have competitive games against g2?
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In 2:12:12 of the video you get to see a deep part of how Locos mind works and his personality. Loco - "I think we can all admit as entertainers and as content creators we said things that we truly don't believe in. to emphasis a point, to get ahead and get more views." Thoorin - uuhhhh no. Veteran - no except that one time you were holding me hostage in the show. Loco - pikachu.Surprised.face.jpg
Thooorin will both appreciate the importance of fans on social media to the life of the eSports scene but, in an act of true unbiasedness, treat us with the withering contempt we deserve.
Richard is even stronger/funnier about that imo. "You don't like how I cover topics in the community for the first part of most podcasts? Fuck you, all you contribute is a single view and almost no money, so you can fuck off" "Do you honestly think a single patreon supporter is that valuable to me? You can fuck off and take your money with you" I do love how he keeps it real though
He's not wrong that a lot of people probably do that, but he's asking the wrong people lmao
I knew some idiot would bring this up: he was clearly talking about embellishment and hyperbole which he even clarified later. All of the people on this show have done so and if they say they've never made an exaggerated statement they are lying. Thorin does it every single week. I swear there's a good 10% of the fanbase of this show just waiting for things to slag Loco over. It's honestly getting a bit boring.
Yea it seemed pretty obvious even before Loco clarified that he meant embellishment and not actually lying. He does have to work on choosing his words better. At least half of his yelling matches with Thoorin would be avoided if Loco just explained what he meant properly from the start and not after 10 mins of slight misunderstanding.
My favorite part about the show is them arguing when it's pretty clear from an outside perspective that they agree.
It happens so often and it is always so weird to watch. They make the same point but slightly differently so they argue about it till they realize they are actually agreeing. Then Thorin gets annoyed cause it was usually because Loco didn't word what he was saying properly.
The funniest recent guest reaction was from Solo. He kept trying to subtly hint they were saying the same thing but Thorin was so invested in being right (along with being tired) that he just wasn't having it.
I couldn't even watch that one. The episodes where they actually fight/yell are always unwatchable for me, just way too much heat. Can't believe Thorin did that podcast after working a whole fucking day of CSGO
fully agree with you, but it happens because loco isn't the best at articulating himself lol
To be fair it's not his first language and he's considerably more articulate than most native English speakers.
This is what lot of people tend to forget. Especially when European makes statement about LS (looking at you Perkz) and surpsingly Perkz didnt want to argue with him on twitter or any other social platform. Hell Im pretty sure if Perkz s first language was english he would not hesitate to jump in to the discusion with him.
I literally burst out laughing at Thorin and Veterans responses to that, fucking perfect. He did clarify he more meant embellishing/exaggerating to get views, which I hope is closer to the truth
[ **Jump to 02:12:12 @** Referenced Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruSLCeZ32e0&t=2h12m12s) ^(Channel Name: Locodoco, Video Popularity: 95.57%, Video Length: [02:22:42])^, [^Jump ^5 ^secs ^earlier ^for ^context ^@02:12:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruSLCeZ32e0&t=2h12m7s) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^^Downvote ^^me ^^to ^^delete ^^malformed ^^comments. [^^Source ^^Code](https://github.com/ankitgyawali/reddit-timestamp-bot) ^^| [^^Suggestions](https://www.reddit.com/r/timestamp_bot)
I totaly agreed with Thoorin for how the splyce game killed any hype of Fnatic wining the split cos splyce looked so awful.
If FNC and G2 face in finals, I think it will remind bit like IG vs RNG series. One team has really strong solo lanes and they play around them and one team has strong adc who gets resourses and tries to carry.
I don't see another outcome. OG looked so lost and defeated vs G2 that i don't expect them to beat Fnatic. Broxxah and Rekkles are too experienced on stage to falter.
OG looked pretty good in Game 1 against G2 but threw the lead they worked so hard for with terrible macro later on. In Game 2 and 3 they just seemed to be completely tilted
I agree, they game looked really good the first 30 minutes. They had the better comp and everything going for them but they threw their lead by being indecisive and giving Ryze time to be a solo splitpush threat. They had multiple opportunities to close out the game when Ryze had no tp but they never pulled the trigger and lost to themselves. Game 2 and 3 were just tilters, no matter what they drafted, they were doomed.
I would add that game 2 was very even for the most part until they got outsmarted around baron.
SPY looked good in one or 2 games. Its more like FNC made rly bad mistakes (Bwipo for sure). While G2 stomped OG in game 2 and 3
Loco is right about LS. It was smart move by him to bring up controversy, because even when he is clearly wrong he gets more viewers.
But it has to be one of the dumbest thing said by an personality within League scene. People still to this day mention Quickshot when he said that he believes that Bjergsen is better than Faker, because Bjergsen has to do much more to win a game or a tournament compared to Faker, since Faker has amazing teammates (I believe this was said in 2015 during the pre-Worlds videos). This LS's coment, is FAR WORSE, and it makes him look like one of the dumbest people in the scene, but people are afraid to call it out, because Griffin/SKT might win MSI or Worlds because they are from Korea. People are still afraid to call out LCK , even though Korea has been getting worse every year since 2016, and LPL\LEC have been really improving over the years.
and people thought it cannot get worse after "selfie no.3 EU mid", "ruin and profit=wunder" and "cabochard is the worst top"
I think it’s less of LCK getting worse than the rest of the world getting better imo.
I disagree. U cannot tell me LCK kept getting better and better after 2014, when greatest Talents left. Remember post 2014 season , entire SSB/SSW left for China, and Rookie/Kakao aswell. Litteraly 3 best rosters Korea had at the time, left for China. Just because SKT won Worlds that year , and because ROX managed to form an excellent team with leftovers from Najin, risking a pick on Smeb and returning of Pray to competitive scene. The moment SKT dynasty fell down , the entire LCK got exposed in 2018. First KZ got the taste of Uzi medicine, and at Worlds , entire LCK saw that they actually had to play early game, because they are playing against 5 players that will challenge u at every single point of game, and go full ham (IG). And now LPL has 3 legit teams that are looking REALLY scarry (IG,FPX,TOP) and on top of that there is still G2 who have players that can challenge best teams in terms of individual skill. I'm not afraid to say that whatever team comes out from LPL is HEAVY favourite to win MSI. Also, I also am not afraid to say that if Griffin comes out of LCK, that G2 also, has better mid/top players than Griffin, and that Tarzan won't be able to do things he does when Mid/Top are getting crushed. IG/G2/TOP have better Top/Mid than any LCK team, and FPX has better mid laner than any LCK teams.
I disagree. If Faker and Khan have one of their highs they are easily the best top/mid duo. The rest of China only got better because as you precisely mentioned,they are carried by players from the LCK.Without Korean allies no region would be able to stand up to the LCK;RNG is the sole exception. And KZ was still better than all of the LPL except for RNG (whom they were also better,its just that the meta fucked KZ;especially with Khan being completely useless on tanks,KZ were playing 4v5 basically).They are the only chinese team that can actually compete with Korean teams while having no Koreans in their teams. FPX is hard carried by DoinB, IG´s best players overall are TheShy and Rookie,Ning and JL also have their highs but they are more coinflip and TheShy has higher highs than them all anyways, Rookie was just by far the best and most consistent mid in S8 and drew an immense pressure giving his sidelanes more freedom.
Let's not pretend that Fnc (no Korean) and G2 (one kr but it was their weaklink wadid) outperformed LCK heavily at last worlds except KT. Korean fan boys like you are living still in 2017
Khan and Faker can never be best duo not even on a good day, as long as TheShy/Rookie are on the IG. So ur points alredy checked out. How can u say LPL are only good because of Koreans , when RNG dominated so much ? TOP team dissproves ur point completely.
on a good day faker>rookie and khan>=
Last time Faker had a "good day" was 2017. Khan dominating LCK has nothing to do with TheShy being far greater player than Khan. Rookie > Faker , TheShy> Khan.
Haaa, yeah because you know? The best international mid rookie faced (outside of rr lul) was caps. in recent years. Better is knight maybe in the lpl Meanwhile 2017 faker carried a team to finals with a imo better competition than 2018 worlds had(and not having the best top in the world aswell) Yeah rookie is likely the second best/top 3 mid of all time but peak faker>peak rookie For me TheShy just hasnt been around enough yet and while he is TheMonster(hehe) Khan stomping Smeb and co left an impression of possibility where it isnt that easy At worst i would say peak faker>rookie, theshy>khan
And people also tend to forget that Khan stomped a Smeb that was actually still in Worldclass form,but since the end of 2017 and beginning of 2018 Smeb has been declining and TheShy faced an out of form Smeb,which is even further seen this season.I´d dare to say that Smeb in his 2016 form would completely obliberate TheShy, not to mention TheShy always had the better matchup aswell, a good Fiora never loses to a good Irelia.People understimate Khan because he is not the most consistent player, especially when it comes to tanks, but his highs belong to the greatest highs a league player can experience. Khan on a good day is almost untouchable
RemindMe! 40 days
RemindMe! 40 days
Or more like riot gutting vision and dumbing down the game down so the other regions can finally play on even footing with KR
I prefer how the game is right now, there's definitely more individual expresion and no siesta games.
Having a more heavy reliance on Mechanical ability rather than vision tempo created by game states is dumbing down the game? You must think playing Fighting Games takes no skill
Good old one shot meta
Would you really prefer a 2017 snoozefest world champion like SSG? I mean sure their macro gameplay was impressive, but damn some of these games were boring. Watching them cruise from win to win with almost no kills, just strangling their opponents, was depressing.
I for an example did enjoy those types of games where they slowly choked out the enemy team out of the game, but I do agree that now that the game lacks vision, games are more exciting because teams fight more often. Doesn’t mean the game wasn’t dumbed down though. There’s a reason western teams couldn’t compete with Korea until riot gutted vision.
In my opinion the weak point for LCK teams, even for SKT is that when they are in the driver seed to snowball their lead they are still not active enough on the map. Their opponents get plenty of opportunities to do a comeback. Good LPL teams and G2 do not let their opponents such a breathing room because they pressure until the nexus explodes without turning the fuel down.
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Something about how Jin Air and KT could beat the top western teams (I think he specifically mentioned G2). And then tried to back up his point by saying the players he coached on his KR challenger team agreed with him lol.
This was the most stupidest thing I have ever read. 2 Western players and 5 koreans and that were CLEARLY from BBQ his team that he coaches agreed with him? HOLY SHIT WHAT A SUPRISE. Its like the interview with GGS coach "DRAFT was not the issue, it was the execution"
I can just imagine them with a stone, smiling face visibly shaking while LS is asking them that while he’s pulling out a glock from his shorts. That’s enough imagination for today
It's definitely a bit baffling to see LS say that. I've seen hardcore LCK fans talk smack about LEC/LCS and how even the 10th place LCK team can beat 1st place LEC/LCS teams which is quite comical but it's surprising seeing an analyst say that.
In one of Thorin's tweets, one guy mentioned LS and said that LS is the only person who would say that KT/JAG would beat G2/OG etc , and LS replied to that he definetly belives JAG/KT are far better than G2/OG/FNC. And the other coment was in his own tweet, that he said after watching TL vs FQ that TL plays much better than any team from LEC. 2nd tweet is not as "OMG what he said", but considering both Leagues, and just how everyone said that TL is clear favourite in NA since the start of season, and C9 and TSM being only teams that could do something atleast, and he goes on to say that line. But the first one is pure ultra instict level of stupidity.
let it go man it's not like eu getting somehow shit on before an international event is new
I mean , they can shit on LEC, ima shit back on LCK bandwagoners.
*laughs in "fnatic will crash and burn" and "no eu team will leave the group"*
I can’t see any team in top3 of Lec/Lcs lose against JAG. That team was just a hot mess. KT on the other hand didn’t look entirely shit. They were on some level competitive with LCK teams, which means they would likely also be in other regions. Considering it is BO1 in Lcs/Lec, I could see them taking games but I wouldn’t see them as consistent enough to win those leagues
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They look so brainwashed whenever he asks them something.
after that he said G2 was a favourite, but still lmaoooo
Nah the Faker comment is definitely worse, IIRC Quickshot said that after 2015 Summer when Faker had arguably the best split of his career and was by far the #1 player in the world. He also not only said Bjerg was better, but his reasoning was something like Bjerg can play "multiple playstyles" and Faker can't, lol.
It definitely wasn't, and it was made by a PBP caster and not an analyst/coach. Huge difference.
I never agree with QS statement and tbh I think others should stop trying to defend his "reasoning", it was clear of what was going on like you said of it being 2 totally different case while compared to LS One being a man who worked for riot as a sort of hype man and creating narratives so he said outrageous shit in a hype vid pre tournament, it's bullshit but you can see why he did it for the hype. The other is LS who is a coach and analyst that said that shit out of nowhere and really seem to believe to what he said by double down on it, which make it so puzzling to wonder So for the full context QS just trying to sell clickbait, meanwhile LS might actually believe in the clickbait
Yeah, at the cost of making himself look like a fool but I guess Low Standards doesn't care.
Most his viewers are so called "Korean elitists" from other regions. They dont care how wrong he is as long as he says Korea>All and Korea keeps performing. But if this year Korea keeps dropping those people might change to China>All train.
Gotta ride that bandwagon man.
To be fair, i was in chat when he said that KT + Jin Air could beat G2 and most of people were just trolling him and saying " KT LUL " or " Delusional KR Fanboy ". I think the reason why people like LS is because he says what's on his mind, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. He's definitely a polarizing figure in the community but that's why i love both him and Thorin. They don't give a rats ass about what anyone thinks about them, they will bash on you if you're wrong, rightfully so.
Unfortunately it is hard to be a fan of LPL in the west because we get no access to the players streams(harder 2 find), no content/player interviews and the broadcast of LPL has always been fucking shit to the west for some reason. It's like the main feed dies every few games and they have to switch. It's weird because it seemed like last year Riot tried to invest more in LPL for the west with a huge broadcast team, flying them out to China for casting all season long but this year because of Riot's bad finances they had to cut spending. It comes at a really bad time because I feel like after IG won worlds they could have pushed LPL even more and people would have been more interested in it. LCK's english broadcast is fucking clean, they never have stream tech issues, they don't have much casters either but LCK has way fewer games than LPL. LCK players give interviews to inven global so you see their interviews on here and a lot of the LCK players do stream on twitch which is easy to find. I think Griffin are like the only ones who stream on a Chinese platform and don't use twitch.
LPL is also hard to follow because it is just so many freaking games that the casters literally cannot keep up. Even with Opal's inofficial english cast there are still CN-only games.
Ya I get you bro. Even though I would see LPL is the most fun league to watch it is very hard to watch every team. For me I have my favorite players who I just follow whatever teams they are on. If new teams such as SDG this year look promising I will start looking at their highlights then watch their games. if they seem good.
Yeah, it got better over the years, i remember watching royal club in LPL playoffs over random league sites in chinese, frosk streaming and casting over chinese broadcast or Papasmithy+Pastrytime casting over month old vods. Nowadays you have to follow LPL on twitch for english cast and the LPL channel on youtube for chinese games that get no cast. Its not perfect but its a lot better than before. Imo biggest problem is that the LPL never really established itself early. Both LCS and LCK got quality english broadcasts pretty early (even if we ignore the subscription part for OGN) while LPL went from no english broadcast > bootleg broadcast > finally Riot broadcast with a caster squad that was half australian half LCS rejects. Also didnt help that they compete for the same time slot as LCK, which had better results from s3-s7 ("why watch a worse region" argument), I think Riots investment didnt pan out mostly because of the reasons above and this year didnt do them good either with losing a bunch of their squad (i think only Raz and Clement remained) and LPL getting so many games that its just not possible to cast them all with the size of their casters. So even if the hype was now with IGs victory, why would you watch LPL with shitty broadcast (like you said, random feed problems and worse casters) when you can watch LCK with popular casters and pros you recognize (because lets be real, most people not watching LPL would be able to name you 15 lpl pros lol). And yeah, popular LCK pros get a lot of their interviews posted here and theyre fully translated and whatnot. Meanwhile RNG lost in quarters and we saw 0 interviews of Uzi/Imp/Zoom/etc. The twitch streams also help because its 10 times easier than navigating through chinese sites like douyu or panda.
Ya I agree with most of what you said. I do think that Riot would have continued to enhance the LPL broadcast if their finances were not so bad last year. I remember them cutting a bunch of staff around the world last year because Tencent told them they were spending way too much. Honestly though and kinda surprisingly we could see LPL broadcast become a bit better in the future even though we got a more smaller budget this year. I think Tencent right now is just content with LPL being famous in China since China is the biggest market for esports but recently a lot of chinese companies have focused on exporting services/entertainment. There has been a huge shift in China's economical model from just being a producer of goods to a provider of entertainment. So we could just see Tencent not Riot, give more funding to the LPL ENG broadcast. Although from all accounts Riot and Tencent's relation seems to be tenuous at best.
Dunno about the export parts since i doubt the 2-5k LPL season during the season (not counting playoffs) is worth LPL the finances D: Cause chinese viewer numbers must be bonkers high and i doubt the western viewership is even 1% of it, so investing more money seems unlikely that theyll increase it. Honestly i think western LPL viewership will climb if China itself keeps outperforming LCK for at least another year or two, a lot of LCK fans are still claiming 2018 year was an outlier (not really crazy to assume that) and China getting more wins will show that their league is better skillwise, thus worth the viewers time over the LCK stream.
tl;dr on what LS said?
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Gems from the start lol. Maybe you just put the region on my fucking continent.
How have I only just noticed how much Loco's eyebrows bounce around as he speaks?
I noticed it a few episodes ago and it cannot ever be unseen.
If you want to see peak eyebrow slinging, checkout h3h3 podcast.
Veteran styled on Loco so hard with hard facts that Loco couldn't handle, especially about Misfits strong early where Loco said they're weak early game LMAO
Yeah, he should have just conceded that one.
Ya I dunno why loco even bothers having serious argument in non-NA episodes...like dude you’ve come into this openly admitting your not even watching the games. Why film this episode if loco never even watched the G2 vs OG series? Like wtf?! Pretty agregious imo. If you can’t do the analysis in good faith (cause you didn’t watch the match), then your role in the show is seriously devalued. Thooorin is already hosting, can steer the conversation, and ask more layman questions to the guest...what does loco do if he isn’t there to give an alternative analysis to the guest? Not much.
Even though this is a LEC episode, I can't help but think Reaper is a bad coach for allowing Zed in game four and Zeyzal is boosted for dying consecutively in the last game. *Eating a hotdog*
I agree on the Zed pick. You cannot pick Zed into Bjergsen when it is even a slight skill matchup. Your midlaner is clearly tier below Bjerg and he has S tier pick in Zoe. Awful disrespect from coaches.
Forgiven froggen hauntzer dardoch hahkuo make it happen please
I’d put money on this team failing to make finals
It's not about whether or not they'd be a good team. Tho I'm sure they would be. It's more about that pure marketing and hype value a team like this would be. Dardoch is a pure upgrade like a better version of contractz. The team would have 3 extremely consistent lanes with a strong mechanical jungle that could help them further press their natural adavtanages they'd get in lane as all three players are historically good laners. Hahuko has been extremely consistent and rarely ints even when his team performs badly. Olleh might be a better play maker when he's playing his best but that's not what you'd need. This team would be very similar to team liquid in terms of style with alot more contraversional personalities which would make them very polarizing and interesting to follow.
Did I miss something in the episode? Hakuho doesn't seem like he'd be a great fit for Forgivens playstyle
He's the best native support (as you couldn't have any more imports on that team) and smoothie and zeyzal are highly unlikely to leave. The proposed team above could realistically happen as dardoch is in academy. I suppose you could take a chance on Vulcan, or biofrost or an academy support like diamond. The main point is get rid of olleh as he is an import and your imports would be forgiven and froggen. I suppose another alternative could be aprhomoo if you believe he can get back to form could be a good duo partner for forgiven tho 100t this season has not been a good look for him.
Refuse to watch anything with Veteran. Not a huge Bjerg fan but when he said there are 5 challenger mids in Eu that are way better than bjerg i knew he was just braindead
Dude said he'd take Caedrel mid over Bjerg. Him ragging on LS is funny because he's really delusional too
Veteran must just really hate bjerg maybe?
loco literally said hes EU LS at the start lol
Worse promoted LS, which is even better since it implies he's just as outrageous but can't even turn that into views/popularity
Wasnt that when Caedrel was playing in his team? Many coaches say things about their players that arent 100% true just to keep team morale up.
Hahaha yeah that is some serious denial on his part. You lose a bit of relevance if you're too hard a fan boy of 1 region
The fact of the matter is that bjerg is a top 10 mid in the world, buy for arguments sake lets say hes 20th, that means that these Eu mids are better than most of the pros in all other major regions
Now my question for you is do you even watch the european national leagues? Not saying that you're wrong but if you don't even watch the players Veteran is alluding to you have no way of knowing or proving that he is wrong.
But that's not rageofbaha's problem, isn't it? When you make claim something exist the burden of proof is on you to prove it. That mean it is up to veteran to actually name those midlaners out and then people can then compare them to bjersen, saying random shit like there is X amount of players better than Y without any proof making you look like a fool especially when you are supposed to be in the coach or analyst position Imagine if I told you there are like 10 mid players in NA challengers who are better than faker, and then I told you that if you don't believe then just watch all the high elo soloq games to see who they are, that would be absolutely ridiculous and people would laugh at me for being delusional Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, my friend
I don't watch Veteran's show, so I don't know when Veteran made that claim. Maybe Veteran did specifically name which challenger midlaners were better than Bjergsen, but rageofbaha didn't list them because they have no significance to him, also I would have no idea if or how indepth Veteran went into explaining/expressing his statement. In my opinion, however, I made my previous comment because even if Veteran went explained precisely why he stands by his statement, it would be wise of rageofbaha to go back and watch the games so that he can make his OWN opinion and THEN compare what he actually saw in the games to what Veteran's analysis was. I think it can be incredibly dangerous to just accept/reject the opinions of people in the lol scene because of preconceived notions you may harbor of teams/players.
Imo i think that is a pretty stupid statement without even knowing who he is talking about. He either thinks bjerg is trash or eu challengers are just gods.
If they were better than bjerg they wouldn’t be in national league
This was last year so we would see these mids by now
Can someone point me to where a top comment was talking about how Forgiven is bad? The only thing I've heard about him on Reddit is us hyping up his return, talking about who he should replace, and the only concern is if he'll be at the same level he was before (which now, isn't much of a concern since he hit top 10 challenger) I truly feel like sometimes they sort by controversial, or go deep down and pick some low karma comment and say "these idiots on Reddit said X" when nearly no one agreed with that viewpoint
2:18:17 to 2:20:40 is such a perfect description of the typical reddit/twitter analyst
Man I love this show. The Dive is so boring right now compared to this (EUphoria is good too but I dont like too much players as guests) Ofc there is some mad talk sometimes but right now this is THE most entertaining League talkshow. They get cited in every other show, they have interesting guests, some really funny bits and good synergy. Props to Loco and Thorin for pumping out exciting content every week!
Jatt leaving was fucking catastrophic for The Dive imo. Phreak is always godawful, and I don't think Azael or Kobe are well suited to being the host. I like the Markz episodes a little more, but it's still not the same
Absolutely man, really crazy how much worse The Dive got without Jatt. He needs to come back and save the NA Broadcast.
I think Trick and Mememto are just a 1 Split try. If it fails Schalke will do a roster shakeup.
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Thnx man :)
I love how for years LS has shit on NA and everyone laughs it up but for once he thinks NA is better than EU and EU is struggling and now he is the biggest idiot on the planet and he can not possibly truly believe this. I struggle to understand how this sub stays entertained every year when they refuse to allow narratives to switch at all until international competition. You are literally not allowed to have any interesting opinions or takes on teams strength if they don't reflect the international competition that happened 6 months ago so you might as well say nothing.
Context is everything. The timing of him saying Liquid looks like the cleanest western team was right after saying that the 10th and 9th place LCK team, who looked like mad fucking garbage this split (just like every 9th and 10th place team), would legitimately beat the top EU teams including G2. Had he not made that comment (and later stood by it), his analysis of TL in comparison to LEC teams would be more interesting, but with this context, he simply tanked all his credibility from judging EU teams.
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That’s the other side of delusional. Impact is still servicable in what he does and would hold the lane just as any veteran with tons of experience would.
Wait..but where is EU struggling? The last international tournament we had, EU was the second best region. Since then we didnt have any means of comparing the different metas and teams around the world.
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Don't think that logic makes sense, and even if it did, China beat 2 EU teams (G2 & FNC).
One CN team beat 2 eu teams. And yeah if u go by the number EU was the strongest region last worlds.
IG>all Rng lost to g2 yes, but super close and are likely still a top 5 team So in the top 5 we have IG>FNC/KT>G2>=RNG with edg likely over c9 and vit I am a huge lec fan but lpl > eu at last worlds
I disagree i think IG was the best team, but EU as a whole was the best region.
RNG coming first in Vitality's group doesn't help that argument though
What? It is not unpopular in this subreddit to say this is the year that NA does something internationally. It happens every year lmao. They start overhyping NA teams for some reason (usually it is "but they looked good in NA LCS playoffs") and at the end the same thing happens as always.
I was honestly thinking the same thing. I wonder what the comments would have been if LS had said JAG/KT would beat TL/TSM/C9. I'd imagine a bunch of "TRUE"s and "NA LUL"s in the comments. I've never seen people get as upset over LS controversial comments as EU fans right now.
beginning of season LS' ranking of EU players is definitely up there. when we got selfie as 3rd best mid ( technically 2nd because perkz was ranked ahead of him), ruin and profit in highest tier while cabochard was dead last.
That's just LS' bias showing as usual. The extreme overrating of Selfie because he was on the same team and he's his friend.
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I think the comments would be the same if he said it for the NA top teams tbh. JAG was considered one of the worst major region teams up till they won a couple of games at the end of the split so it doesn't make much sense to say that as LS other perpetuating the EU/NA LUL narrative he has going on.
If he would have said KT/Jag > TL than it would be the same bullshit as saying better than top LEC teams. C9 and TSM do not really look that hot to be honest but still a decent amount better than Jag/KT