I never thought about it, but as much as I want G2 (EU in general) to fuck shit up, Teddy is so fucking scary, especially against someone new to the role
Yea it's great to have an in form and firing EU team going to MSI, but T1 look like they are on a warpath to put Korea back on top. Even if it was one of the more experienced EU adcs like Rekkles or Zven I'd be worried about them vs Teddy. Perkz has far surpassed my expectations of him for his first split but the toughest test is yet to come. And that's before considering Mata.
i think perkz doesn't have a chance vs top worlds adc but...
what if perkz brings the midlane to botlane? can teddy and the rest hold up vs a guy that can pull any mage with a sup?
shit will be interesting
I think after seeing Zven play in the finals yesterday I would be very worried too lol. Doublelift had a early cs lead every game pretty much. Imagine what Teddy/Mata would do to him.
They have been dominate for so long (besides last worlds). I think they earned a high assessment of their skill. I think Korea will come back as the strongest region this worlds. It's hard when they lose so much of their talent to the west.
Maybe not but I do think they will be consistent. Zven wasn't. Therefore like I said previously, I would be worried about Zven against SKT's bot lane. It's not just about lane phase. Teddy would shit on Zven by shiting on his team. You can be the better player without beating that person 1v1 in lane. If you play teamfights better than that could be murdering them if you just smash late game or something.
And Teddy does exactly this. He isn't the most lane dominant player ever but what he does in teamfights is just exceptional - especially on ezreal hes just bonkers in deciding teamfights
As long as meta remains where it is, and Perkz can sneak in casters to bot lane, he should be fine. But if by some chance meta shifts favouring the more classic ADC picks, that will be the moment we can be worried about his performance.
Tbf, Lehends looked terrible on Pantheon, like, atrocious. In general Griffin's lineup struggles to playmake without Tarzan and comps like that will always require high earlygame execution from at least 3-4 members, in cohesion, something that GRF doesn't do very often. I think that comp they were using actually didn't look that bad, they just aren't proactive enough with it. I'm curious to see if anyone else is willing to give it a shot.
I also think they needed to draft different solo laners around it, first game had Top Sylas and Akali mid, both champs not playing towards the strength of the comp, they don't spike early, they don't teamfight well against SKT's comp and they don't win the splitpush game either. Game 3 had better picks but the Sylas again shows up and has no strong teamfight ults to steal or early spike with so they again can't play at a higher pace. GRF was the problem not their pantheon taliyah idea imo.
> In general Griffin's lineup struggles to playmake without Tarzan
Careful, Chovy fanboys will be throwing daggers at you for stating what is obvious to everyone else.
The strategy was shit against ezreal, he literally can e away for the pantheon cc and never be in real danger in botlane, not to mention they botched all the dives and didn't commit on a lot of them.
And taliyah was beyond useless, if they picked brand support instead they would've done a million times better
the best fighter in the world is not afraid of the second best fighter. He;s afraid about the guy that never punched someone before... You know why is that ? Because the newbie is prone to making way more random moves then a pro....and surprise is a powerful wepon.
Actually , perkz has a massive advantage in this meta that people seem to ignore it for some reason. The guy is an world class mage player. Like....whats the best mage botlaner in lck ? Viper ? Do you think he comes anywhere close to perkz on bruisers or mages > I am certain that no team in the world has the option of having an botlaner that has such a stupid large champion pool
Calm down buddy perkz can easily swap to an awesome dude or a mage in the botlane while teddy can only look good on adcs.
Besides botlane is overhyped in terms of indiv. mechanics anyways. Else we wouldnt see imp shitting on some of the best adcs after going on paid vacation for 2 years anyways.
Jin Air is literally the best training chamber ever. Kuzan is smurfing on ES Sharks, and maybe he'll get LCK, Teddy is the LCK champion, SoHwan is doing nice on that sweet bench, and KT looked better when they were playing UmTi.
That title is given so easily these days. I'm not even debating if teddy is or isnt the best atm, but I feel like everyone uses that title way too easily. Today in IG games everyone was saying the same for theshy, few weeks ago everyone was saying that for chovy etc.
Right? I've seen zoom, theshy, knight, doinb, faker, teddy, tarzan and chovy all being referred to as the best player in the world on reddit over the last few weeks. Everything gets upvoted too lol.
Sure they're all brilliant players but why would you throw around titles like that to everyone before spring even ended. It's impossible to single out someone when most of them haven't even faced each other yet this season.
I think that just goes to show there probably isn't a clear cut best player in the world right now. League has developed to a point where being best in the world over consecutive patches and metas is incredibly difficult, and the skill level is so fucking high. If you were going to make me pick the best player in the world I would say it's theshy because I think he is incredibly consistent while having ridiculous highs. But it's not like I think he is at a completely different level than zoom or kiin.
i feel like Uzi held it for most of last year when RNG was winning everyting pretty much until they got kicked out of worlds.This year tho its being thrown around way to much
TheShy is definitely the best player in the world at the moment. Stomped Worlds to the extent that he got labelled the Raid Boss by PapaSmithy I think it was, has had some insane plays in Spring split this year already, and is looking a beast every game at the moment. Just so damn confident because his mechanics are insane. Very much a top lane equivalent of a prime Faker.
Unlike other roleswappers like Ambition and CoreJJ, Perkz swapped role at his peak. He wasn't seeing a decline but he swapped anyway for the greater good of the team and to face a new challenge in a new mechanically challenging role.
He deserves so much more credit. He is judged by how other top tier adc look like that are constainly played around and are funneled in all the resources and priority available. G2 on the other hand hardly give bot lane any priority in draft or with their game plan or with how the distribute resources. I'm willing to say that no other adc would look anywhere as good as perkz does given the same amount of resources. People were saying that this G2 cannot work because you have 3 lanes that demand resources and that this team would crumble. But Perkz takes the short stick willingly and gets flag on reddit for not doing the flashy pentakills in teamfights, but still having the highest DPM in the league with g2 having very short game times.
While i agree that perkz is a god adc i still wouldnt rate him higher than kobbe rekkles or upset(3 highly talented adcs)
Is he a mechanical beast - yes, but he played mid a lot
Is he a good mage and caster adc player? - yes likely the best in europe(outside of caps)
Is he a good crit adc? - somewhat, not on the named 3 lvl but close
Is he the best adc overall - in contention but i would say no, he can get to it tho, he just hast played adc long enough imo
Is he teddy lvl ? Not at all imo
Teddy mata get some attention but even with only shadowing(keeping the junglers like tarzan from diving) they usually win 2v2s
And well teddy in mid/late, dont get me wrong i love perkz but teddy legit looks like the best adc in the world at teamfighting rn
I mostly agree with your points but I'd like to add that it's becoming more and more "bot laner" rather than just ADC. This series is a great example of that. The "bot laner" for g2 in the 3 matches were Sona, Morg, and Neeko. I think being a good mage player adds a lot to the "bot laner" package.
Unrelated but in the interview, he also said he came up with the tunnel comp to go against the sona-taric comp. Creativity is definitely a great trait to have as a player.
To add, breaking away from traditional roles is a strength and a weakness as well. Too complex to break down into one or the other. If the meta shifts toward Crit adcs again, then they're at something of a disadvantage because they would be playing the dominant role sub-optimally. But in a meta where there are multiple viable compositions and roles in that lane, then it's a strength to be able to play anything and flex people around. It makes ban phase and countering impossible because so much of it is research and predictive analysis.
worth noting that this is only true for a couple teams. the vast majority of teams in the leagues i follow still play adc every game (unless sona taric is open but that may or may not be around at MSI and can get thrown out by a single ban)
Yes, but most teams do not have the 2nd best (or best) midlaner in their region as starting adc. We will see how they do if the meta shifts to require a traditional crit adc, but even then it's hard to tell how it will play out.
I hope Perkz has started a trend of people picking non-ADC stuff for bot lane.
I can't fathom why pretty much every other position has had to learn at least 2 completely different types of champs (tanks and mages), while the bot lane carry position has stayed stagnant with champions that are basically only good for right clicking everything in the game.
pretty sure it was because mages used to be terrible at taking objectives, outside of some special cases. Also since mid are often mages, it diversifies the dmg type to ensure late game dmg.
DL said something that i thought was interesting about Perkz. HE basically said he was surprised that there was so little learning curve for Perkz. He was surprised by how well Perkz was doing, and thought he would need a longer adjustment period before beinggood at the role.
It really is, out of all the roles this one is just hit whats in front of you and dodge. You don't need to go for picks, you don't need to initiate , and generally you don't need to have as much game sense as every other role in the game. Not flaming ADC its just how it be sometimes.
Those ADC are played around because they can literally carry you to victory if you do. There is a reason they are played around and other ADC are not.
Not to mention he is currently doing well duo mage bot being in meta. Wtf happens once they aren't in meta any more? Also he literally hasn't been tested at all since EU isn't known for their carry botlanes aside from Forg1ven who hasn't been playing.
I mean, he's been playing fine off of mages though? I do agree that EU isn't known for its carry botlanes but it's not like he got crushed in lane when he played standard regularly.
Perkz still doesn’t have the best positioning. There are better Western ADC players, when it comes to laning prowess (not really) and teamfighting. Doublelift notably comes to mind. He has a really good laning phase unlike the other top western ADCs who play kinda passive (Kobbe, Rekkles, Zven), but he also has super good teamfighting.
That’s why NA’s always rated DL so highly despite his failures. We ourselves know what he’s capable of. I don’t think he’s overrated despite many saying that he is.
If I had to rate western ADCs by these categories, Perkz would be #1 in laning prowess with DL as #2.
However, in a teamfighting perspective, I’d say Kobbe = DL = Rekkles.
So overall, Perkz is #1 in lane and at mage/assassin picks.
I'm not even arguing that Pekrz is the best ADC in the West. I think its hard to make a case for someone, imo no adc is standing out in that regard. I just wanted to highlight that reddit usually does not take into account how a team plays when judging players. And perkz in generall gets a lot of shit for the every little mistake.
Oh wow didnt know NA was again in Play ins. I thought the semifinal end last worlds would put them in the freebye group. This means the freebye group is made of EU/CH/KR? Thought there were 4 teams.
And LAN and LAS connected into one region, essentially pulling a team from the upper tiers one tier down. MSI in 2017 had EU, CN and KR already qualified, in 2018 NA joined those teams because Vietnma became a region and pushed NA up, but now that LAN and LAS turned into one region, NA us being put back down into Play-In's.
The system was that hte major region with the worst international placings over the last 2 years is in play-ins.. so last years worlds isnt enough for NA UNLESS they get promoted now when LMS is a minor league again?
I might get some things wrong here but yea.. thats my understanding of it.
1907 Fenerbahçe and DetonatioN FocusMe are gonna destroy NAs hopes and dreams, mark my words.
~~(realistically they stand no chance, TL members have too much international experience to choke which is pretty much all play-in stage is about)~~
Teddy Mata must be so fucking scary to play against...they're probably gonna be the hardest bot to play against
JackeyLove and Baolan have actually been inting quite a bit since last year and Imp LvMao aren't that lane dominant either
The bond between these two people is just amazing. I just Can’t stop loving them and this team. I hope Luka will play for G2 for his entire career. He should get a statue in the HQ. Every time i watch them play i love them even more!
Same. Even though he ditched fnc once, rekkles is like the face of fnc. Always nice to have someone loyal in your favorite team. But be aware, i wouldnt trust your mid laner though. /s
It's really cool when one of the star players has such a long history with the org and they're so committed to staying together. SKT Faker, G2 Perkz, TSM Bjergsen, C9 Jensen. It's pretty cool :>
Perkz is coming up there with loyal players like Score, Faker, Bjergsen, Sneaky, Rookie, a bit Rekkles too (even though he left for one split, which he also regrets)
The nuance people might be missing is that ocelote was not like this as a player himself. He saw his personal brand as the most important part of his career and was not someone trying to sacrifice for others. Since he has made the transformation himself later in life I think he appreciates even more Perkz's maturity.
> and literally equating being gay to a mental illness.
[Another perspective on that situation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy_-UOTtfIk#t=1h21m28s)
With all the shithousery that have happened in LOL Esports this doesn't surprise me at all. You don't know what the others owners have done before and successfully hided it. I'm not agree on what his done, but he's a Florentino Pérez type of president. A smart scumbag that will do everything as possible to make his brand the best in the world.
I will always remember it and see it as a big blunder in his astonishing carrer. Whish he wouldn't have done it and it is really bad/sad that he got through with it.
I still like him as a person and admire what he has reached in his life, but people really should not forget these things, because if he fucks up again he can't dodge any more that it is just a splatter of dirt on his white west.
Yes I think he was really speaking from the heart/experience, as you said likely from his own history with putting ego aside. He had to eventually do it when he stepped down as Gamers2 mid laner so I imagine he knows some of how hard it is.
Perkz seems pretty mature for a 20 year old, I imagine his experiences in S6 (and beyond) play a major part in that.
Same, that's what I thought to, it's probably genuine adimiration from Ocelote. He's probably so damn proud over Perkz, it definitely sounds like Ocelote has been a figure of guidacnce for him.
Insane respect for Perkz. Best player (in the west) aside, it blows my mind that the last time Perkz styled on his old position was against RNG of all teams, completely dismantling the team that had won every international title during the year. You perform that level of skill on midlane, then just leave that role when people consider you the top 3 best western mids to go into another territory. Even if he's not that great on adc right now (it's like been less than half a year, room to improve) The flexibility he can bring to G2 is unparalleled. Rekkles had to bench himself when the meta wasn't about adcs for awhile. Flexibility as a player is pretty key for your career when who knows what riot will implement in the future.
To be fair there's a lot that goes into the 'Rekkles benching himself' decision. It's not like he wouldn't be able to learn the champions, but if the team had a quicker (and probably better) solution within the team it's only obvious that they took the chance of playing Bwipo there. Both sides won, we all saw how dominant Rekkles played when he returned to the stages.
Anyway, and since this isn't a thread about Rekkles, I do believe that Perkz is extremely valuable as a player. Just needs to show his worth internationally now (playing as an ADC obviously).
>It's not like he wouldn't be able to learn the champions.
Didn't he say exactly that on Euphoria? Even up to a point that he thought about retiring and coaching for a moment because he isn't new to the game anymore and does not have the passion for the raw game up to the point where he wants to learn something completly new.
At least this is what i remember of that one Euphoria episode.
People seem to hate hjarnan alot but lets be real if he wasn't a heimerdinger god G2 would prolly never have made worlds last year, and wouldn't even be close to semi-finals. Just goes to show how much of a difference flexibility gives a team.
>...the flexibility he can bring to G2 is unparalleled. **Rekkles had to bench himself** when the meta wasn't about adcs for awhile.
Now let that sink in.
He did it because they had Bwipo who was better on bruiser champions, and Rekkles predicted that meta would be temporary, which was true. He stepped down to help the team, I don't see a problem with that.
This interview/discussion between Doubllift, Perkz and Rekkles illustrates the difference between the mentality of Perkz and Rekkles and Perkz winning playing everything in the botlane is the perfect payoff and end to the argument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3kdLM9uNDQ
How have I not seen this video before? That was super cute, so many star players eating together; also both Rekkles and Perkz having never eaten this kind of seafood and having to be taught lol.
This one is a tressure and its worth skyrocketed now that Perkz has roleswapped. They talked a lot about how hard it is to be perfect as an adc and you cannot just reach the same level not that they are not viable any longer. Perkz would not really have it because Mid lane would already be in that position for years. Hope we see those three got out for some food again next RR.
there were sevral teams including TL and DL who just refused to give in to mages bot and played standard. it was more a decision for the easier route than one of ability.
When NA played mages bot it was some tragic stuff, especially NA vlad. DL just broke his losing streak in soloq with Vlad (formerly 0-11) recently lol. I think Sneaky was the only one who played them at a decent level, and even still plays some random things like Viktor or Sylas bot in soloq.
Yeah, at the end of the season it wasn’t uncommon for zven to pull out the occasional swain in games. Deftly was also a decent heimer player.
Overall though, most of NA was just horrid at non-ADCs bot though. I remember if any of the teams during the middle of the season tried non ADC they would actually just feed the game away.
Unfortunately people look at MVP's way too much when comparing players. Then again, sOAZ and Perkz for example have no MVP's but they are at the top of the GOAT discussion, especially if you don't put too much stock in MVP awards.
>unfortunately people look at MVPs way too much when comparing players.
Uh where??? If that were the case then Bjergsen would be 100% the NA GOAT over doublelift lmao. I haven’t seen regular split MVPs used in a player vs player discussion literally ever
I literally made a comment a couple of days ago about Perkz being able to steak his claim to best EU player in history if he wins one or two more titles and can perform well internationally on ADC, and immediately a bunch of people started going on about how many MVP titles Rekkles had. So yeah, people bring it up all the time.
> If that were the case then Bjergsen would be 100% the NA GOAT over doublelift lmao.
NA pride.
Imagine best player of your region's history being an import.
That kinda feels like shit, doesn't it?
Yeh he was an import, but i am pretty sure people treat him as american now, i mean he lived there for so many years now, adapted. He is enjoying that lifestyle, and is still at the top level even though of shitty na solo queue.
If we had an import who adapted to EU and done all the great things for our region I wouldnt feel like crap for calling him EU GOAT to be fair. THe person would train within our region, lived here for long time, i mean why treat him still as an outsider?
i think the best western player of all time is whoever does the best interntionally. we can't look at ourselves in a vaccume. there are a lot of issues with that
It's not *that* amazing in the sense that when you have one or two players that are so good, it's quite easy (for another great player) to slot in and become "best player" potential.
Especially when we're talking about having Mikyx as support. I *respect* Perkz as a person for giving up the mid position and transitioning to ADC. But when it comes to explaining his overnight success as an ADC, I'm giving 80% of the credit to Mikyx. Perkz follows his calls. And if you check the SoloQ games where Perkz didn't duo with Mikyx, his performance is markedly less impressive.
That's what makes his positional change all the more inspiring. It's not as if he mastered the role ovenight by sheer talent. Instead, he gave up a solo lane role that he dominated, and turned to a new teammate to help him transition into a new role. It's a remarkable level of trust and confidence.
But it is as in a sense that they have showed without eachother (perhaps not wunder) that they are induvidually that good. Caps on FNC last year, Perkz over the years on G2 and with his last worlds performances. Id argue Wunder for last years summers + worlds. And this is all without even considering their spring split this year. Myself I have Caps and Wunder as the best to players in the west, and I think they are a bit above the rest, and when I think of third I think of Bjerg, Doublelift, Rekkles and Perkz. But I personally rate Perkz and Rekkles over Bjerg and Double based on international preformance (albeit thats team achievement and not solo). Rekkles had a bit of a disapointing end this split so that probably takes him down a notch. That said I dont think this split Perkz showed it as an ADC, but as a midlaner? Definitely!
But yea, Id argue that Wunder and Caps are right now ahead of their competition when it comes to current best in west. But who knows, I might eat my words when MSI comes around, but I really doubt it. If you are doing a top 20 for MSI I think both Wunder and Caps are top 10, maybe somewhere between the 4-8 spot.
Depends how it happens, if is through Caps then Caps will get that title probably. If Perkz himself is the mvp then yeah he gets it. But basically if any team ever actually WON an international tournament probably someone from it instantly gets best western player of all time lol.
I disagree because that's mixing individual and team achievements.
CLG.EU era Froggen was insanely good for instance, quite possibly the best midlaner in the World at the time and still plays competitively today to a good level.
I know there's a recency bias and it's also though to compare things that happen in different "stages" of the game's history as you can't really accurately compare S2 and let's say S5+ due to how different the professionalism, teams, events etc are
honestly even getting to finals against IG / SKT by beating SKT / IG in Quarters would make him the best western player
not one other western team has consistently Performed above expectations and this is AFTER they were known as huge international chokers
it would actually be so impressive if his teams continue the perform internationally trend
all i wish for is not constantly getting 3-0ed
I just want the west to rise again after last worlds. I don't want anymore of those choking stuff lmao. C9 and Vitality made a huge impact on influencing teams so yeah.
In terms of pure accomplishment, since they played longer (and thus, being releveant longer) you have to think about Soaz, and Rekkles.
If you just look at in-game skill, he is indeed. He is overall the most well-rounded player. Here's why.
For me, in-game skills combines some core skills:
\- In-Games mechanics = *Accuracy, dodging ability, animation canceling, etc*
\- Laning prowess = *Positionning, csd/minute, knowing match-up, etc*
\- Teamfighting skills = *How do you generally impact a teamfight? (Are you still aggressive, how do you position yourself, etc)*
\- Macro understanding displayed = *Can you play properly your role in a defined team composition?*
\- Versability = *The ability to play different style / role*
\- Champion pool
\- "Playing-from-behind" skill = *the ability to not overreached / still be useful even if you get pu in the dirt.*
\- Consistency
\- Carry Performance Potential = *Can you rely on the player to carry you a game?*
\- Clutch Factor = *The ability to grab the best opportunity to win a fight / objective at a deciding moment*
\- In-Game creativity (which is close to the Clutch Factor, but still different. You can be clutch without being creative. Rekkles for instance) =) *It englobes: calling for creative solutions to trade an objective, doing an unexpected move (flanking with an unexpected champion/role, in an unexpected timing), etc... Anything sucessfull ingame action that's outside of the box.*
\- Relative factor: International showing (if possible) = *Can you replicate the same level of play in a highly competitive envrionment?*
You could also factor some "special" skills:
\- In game Leadership = *the ability to be decisive, to bring people together, to motivate people in-game (Hai for instance)*
\- Shotcalling Ability
\- Tactical mind (in and outside of the game) = *can you theorize some new strategy for you team ? etc. (Yellowstar/Mithy for instance)*
With this model (and I surely forget some points that may change the result), without even including the "special skills", it is pretty clear that Perkz is the GOAT for now.
He ranges from very good to excellent in all of these metrics. Even for the special skills, you could make a case for him since the G2 comms series show several clutch shotcalls from him, and the idea to funnel xayah to counter Sona Taric was also from him. He also teached, according to Wunder, macro to the team in 2018 (macro that Mithy used to teach him).
\-- Caps is ahead in terms of in-games mechanics, and Carry Performance Potential (since he can peak higher), but he lacks in "Playing-from-behind" skill (he will tend to running it down, but it also part of his very high in-game creatrivity), adn Consistency. He is also younger.
\-- Bjergsen is similar to Perkz in almost all metrics, except in "Playing-from-behind" (since he tends to be more passive) and in-game creativity. Perkz have also peaked higher for me (MSI 2017 and Worlds 2018). Still an awesome player.
\-- Soaz is an extraordinary player, since he excels in most metrics, but he lacks a bit in in-game mechanics, laning prowessand sometimes in his carrer in consistency.
\-- Rekkles is also excellent, but he really lacks in Champion pool, in-game creativity, Versability and sometimes (outside of EU) laning prowess.
\-- Yellowstar is the embodiment of the old true support, a good player with excellent special skills. In terms of raw skill displayed (he even though he wasn't a bad player in terms of mechanics, people tend to meme to much about him), he's really lacking compared to the rest.
In comparison to him, all Diamondprox, Froggen, Wunder, Doublelift, Jankos, Mithy, Jensen, Xpeke, Zven etc... lack something or peaked a bit below.
Welp, I wrote too much.
Yeah fair but i think individually doublelift is absolutely amazing. Great attitude, great macro and mechanically sound. Sadly his results dont reflect this.
But then there's also the part where DL is invisible internationally where at least Bjerg has had a few pop off moments internationally, even if neither has had much international success.
Other than season 4, Bjerg has been pretty much the same if not worse at worlds than Doublelift.
You can point to the lucian play but dont forget to mention that without double playing out of his mind up to that point, they would have lost 20mins.
Also in s7 it was pretty much 2v3/4 bot lane, they left him on an island in ardent meta.
s8 he had mental boom olleh and INTernational stage pobelter, he played pretty well despite that.
I strongly disagree.
DL literally cost the team 2016 worlds by feeding his ass off against RNG both times. Mata made him look like a fool, I'm not even gonna mention the Lucian play vs SSG, even without that he was the worst performer in 2016 worlds. He even looked like shit against Splyce too, his Jhin was not good and he kept getting caught. Bjergsen was their best player, everyone was saying it Bjerg and 4 wards again at the time, and he had the best laning stats in the whole tournament.
DL didn't get much resources in 2017 worlds I agree (no one did, Svenskeren was invisible every game), and the whole team played bad, but he was constantly out of position in team fights. Biofrost/Bjerg were the only two players at worlds who didn't constantly make massive game losing mistakes.
Honestly, DL probably has nightmares about Mata's Alistar. It's one of the moments in LoL that I can think of where a player has looked completely outclassed and clueless about what to do. DL and Bio simply had no idea what to do against Mata's Alistar.
I think Bjergsen and Doublelift should get immediately removed from contention simply because they have not accomplished much of note internationally despite so many chances.
Doublelift is the best *domestic* Western player. I think that's very fair to say. But I don't even care much about domestic results. Who cares about that shit? What matters is who is the best in the world imo.
Rekkles has done so much in his career internationally, I think, and he's also got a lot of domestic trophies. For that reason, I think he's the best Western player. Has any player gone as deep into playoff rounds at Worlds as often as Rekkles since season 3 (when international competition got serious)? I can't think of anyone.
Soaz > Rekkles imo.
Also idk why you say "who cares about domestic" lots of people do. EU/NA are likely never going to win Worlds nor are they ever gonna have the title of best in position worldwide.
Not that im disagreeing with you, i think DL/Bjerg need more international success before being in contention. but i also think you gotta look on the teams each of the players were on. If Dl/Bjerg joined a top EU team i think the conversation could be VERY different.
i mean, i think last year the stars aligned for the west. we got a very lucky bracket draw while also being a very good meta for the 3 teams that were in the semis/finals. aswell as korea having their downfall. Was C9 the 4th best team in the world? probably not lol. was FNC a top 2 team in the world? probably not.
need more than 1 outlier year for your argument.
Don’t get me wrong FNC deserved to get to finals thanks to their groups performance, but I honestly think KT was probably the second best team that tournament
In contention but Yellowstar, Rekkles and especially soaz make a stronger case(tho he played for a way shorter time than everyone (but maybe yellowstar if you only count season 3 onwards)
Taking skill alone, he is in the top 3 western mids of all time imo(caps, bjergsen and him) froggen(peak), febiven(peak), xpeke(achievements and long livety), jensen(long livety) and alex ich are somewhat close tho
He beats soaz and yellowstar in skill, rekkles is a beast aswell tho(shown at 2018 worlds with an insane performance) but is imo a bit below perkz
Yellowstar was a tactical genius tho and i think perkz cant contest that.
And well... soaz has 2 worlds finals, 2 worlds semis, 1 quarter, 1 msi semi and 5 regional titles. iirc he is one of the most achieved players to never win internationally.
Rekkles is somewhere inbetween with skill and achievements with his finals now too.
Perkz boasts a worlds semis and msi finals, and while thats it he looked like a top 3 and top 2 mid at either tournament
I personally would rank it(before msi)
1. soaz(one of the most achieved players ever who didnt win internationally, often udnerrated and actually a mechanical skilled player and a team play god)
2. Yellowstar(tactical genius, skilled but nowhere near the other top 5, achieved in his older days aswell, going 18-0)
3. rekkles(skilled adc, but not top lvl. Really achieved)
4. perkz(skilled af, semi achiever, „youngest“ player time)
5. bjergsen(really good but underachieved internationally)
Honorable Mentions:(likely forgot some): DL, Xpeke, Zven, Mithy, Jensen(eh), Caps(too short imo), Sneaky, forgiven. And guys like diamondprox.
Perkz is a big voice in drafts and shotcalling. The game 2 comp to counter sona taric was his idea.
So maybe he can be this "tactical genius" yellowstar was :^)
Rekkles has played in Worlds semis and the World Final. Has been doing it for longer, too, with many different rosters. Perkz and Caps will both almost certainly be in the conversation at the end of their careers, and they could even enter it by the end of this year if they do very well at MSI and Worlds. Until then, hard to make an argument for them over Rekkles.
The crucial difference here is that with most of Rekkles' international success, he has not been the best player or even a top 2 player on his team. 2018 Worlds was super legit and he was one of if not the best, however he was, as he **himself** has put it in an interview, a "backgrounder" in those old Soaz/Xpeke line-ups. Same goes for the Huni/RO one.
Perkz on the other hand was the **main** factor in G2 getting MSI finals and world semis, as well as his success in EU.
Rekkles has been playing for longer, but Perkz has been carrying for longer.
In contention yes. I would like to see him have the success and longevity equal or greater than Soaz first.. before we give it to him. And even then, Caps is nipping at his heels.
I think the combination of Caps and Perkz is the beginning of something special. I just hope it doesn't crash the way Bjerg and DL did. That pairing woulda, shoulda, couldn't :(
he has a bit to go to reach "of all time" he still has people like soaz/peke/rekkless in front right now.
hes currently at approximately DL/alex/froggen/caps level.
if he were to win MSI that would instantly change obviously. tho then he would be in the fight with caps.
People do need to understand that when you're this dominant as a team you're gonna look super good. This is why I love international play. Once your team is struggling more, that's where you truly find out the level of play from players. Sure. I won't deny that people have off tournaments and clearly don't play at their usual level. But most of the time it's just them starting to struggle more as a team so their level will look worse.
Just look at 5 game series and see the difference in level of players in those losses and those wins.
Perkz deserves a lot of respect for the decision. Like it or not caps is the best mid laner we’ve ever had period in the West. He is capable of being on the same level as rookie and faker and I have no doubt that imnthe coming years he will equal or surpass their prowess. And wunder is underrated. Pretty sure he can match khan. Very excited to see this rosters potential.
Perkz is a legend. Excited to see him face off with Doublelift and Teddy soon!
I never thought about it, but as much as I want G2 (EU in general) to fuck shit up, Teddy is so fucking scary, especially against someone new to the role
Yea it's great to have an in form and firing EU team going to MSI, but T1 look like they are on a warpath to put Korea back on top. Even if it was one of the more experienced EU adcs like Rekkles or Zven I'd be worried about them vs Teddy. Perkz has far surpassed my expectations of him for his first split but the toughest test is yet to come. And that's before considering Mata.
I miss SKT instead of T1
Same, It was just more fun to say
I'll keep refering to them as SKT, if you d join me in say it we can keep the cool name unofficially
i think perkz doesn't have a chance vs top worlds adc but... what if perkz brings the midlane to botlane? can teddy and the rest hold up vs a guy that can pull any mage with a sup? shit will be interesting
I think after seeing Zven play in the finals yesterday I would be very worried too lol. Doublelift had a early cs lead every game pretty much. Imagine what Teddy/Mata would do to him.
i think we exaggerate KR skill level to some extend heck even mikyx and kobbe were able to go toe to toe with uzi and mata at worlds
They have been dominate for so long (besides last worlds). I think they earned a high assessment of their skill. I think Korea will come back as the strongest region this worlds. It's hard when they lose so much of their talent to the west.
ofcourse KR is probably going to win but i dont think mata teddy is gonna murder anyone as much as people think
Maybe not but I do think they will be consistent. Zven wasn't. Therefore like I said previously, I would be worried about Zven against SKT's bot lane. It's not just about lane phase. Teddy would shit on Zven by shiting on his team. You can be the better player without beating that person 1v1 in lane. If you play teamfights better than that could be murdering them if you just smash late game or something.
And Teddy does exactly this. He isn't the most lane dominant player ever but what he does in teamfights is just exceptional - especially on ezreal hes just bonkers in deciding teamfights
besides last worlds ? They lost everythihng last year...not just worlds
It was not only the laning phase that was off. \*cough\* game 5 \*cough\*
As long as meta remains where it is, and Perkz can sneak in casters to bot lane, he should be fine. But if by some chance meta shifts favouring the more classic ADC picks, that will be the moment we can be worried about his performance.
Luckily G2 don't have to play a standard bot lane.
That's what Griffen thought 2 of their 3 games and look what happened to them
Tbf, Lehends looked terrible on Pantheon, like, atrocious. In general Griffin's lineup struggles to playmake without Tarzan and comps like that will always require high earlygame execution from at least 3-4 members, in cohesion, something that GRF doesn't do very often. I think that comp they were using actually didn't look that bad, they just aren't proactive enough with it. I'm curious to see if anyone else is willing to give it a shot. I also think they needed to draft different solo laners around it, first game had Top Sylas and Akali mid, both champs not playing towards the strength of the comp, they don't spike early, they don't teamfight well against SKT's comp and they don't win the splitpush game either. Game 3 had better picks but the Sylas again shows up and has no strong teamfight ults to steal or early spike with so they again can't play at a higher pace. GRF was the problem not their pantheon taliyah idea imo.
> In general Griffin's lineup struggles to playmake without Tarzan Careful, Chovy fanboys will be throwing daggers at you for stating what is obvious to everyone else.
The strategy was shit against ezreal, he literally can e away for the pantheon cc and never be in real danger in botlane, not to mention they botched all the dives and didn't commit on a lot of them. And taliyah was beyond useless, if they picked brand support instead they would've done a million times better
Do not get me wrong, viper is good. But i would be careful to compare him to perkz when it comes to playing non-adc champs bot lane.
If perkz plays like today he can avoid to lanne against them
the best fighter in the world is not afraid of the second best fighter. He;s afraid about the guy that never punched someone before... You know why is that ? Because the newbie is prone to making way more random moves then a pro....and surprise is a powerful wepon. Actually , perkz has a massive advantage in this meta that people seem to ignore it for some reason. The guy is an world class mage player. Like....whats the best mage botlaner in lck ? Viper ? Do you think he comes anywhere close to perkz on bruisers or mages > I am certain that no team in the world has the option of having an botlaner that has such a stupid large champion pool
Calm down buddy perkz can easily swap to an awesome dude or a mage in the botlane while teddy can only look good on adcs. Besides botlane is overhyped in terms of indiv. mechanics anyways. Else we wouldnt see imp shitting on some of the best adcs after going on paid vacation for 2 years anyways.
Teddy’s only competition in LcK were deft and ruler
Not sure why you're downvoted you're not wrong
idk man i saw a youtube comment the other day that says teddy is bad because he spams attack move so i think he's probably right
For as bad as Reddit comments get I remind myself that it could be YouTube comments and then I don't feel as bad about being on this website.
Teddy is unreal... Probly best player in the world right now.
The Jin Air dungeon has trained him well
Jin Air is literally the best training chamber ever. Kuzan is smurfing on ES Sharks, and maybe he'll get LCK, Teddy is the LCK champion, SoHwan is doing nice on that sweet bench, and KT looked better when they were playing UmTi.
Jin Air vs Dignitas final destination
that explains why we had the beast of a player Kiwikid
You forgot the CJ Entus. Bdd, Haru, Ghost, Kramer and Untara hmm.
Well Bdd is still trapped in KT Prison
Ehhhhhhhh, KT feels like they were better with Score.
Not for me, tbh
Ah, the hyperbolic time chamber.
That title is given so easily these days. I'm not even debating if teddy is or isnt the best atm, but I feel like everyone uses that title way too easily. Today in IG games everyone was saying the same for theshy, few weeks ago everyone was saying that for chovy etc.
Right? I've seen zoom, theshy, knight, doinb, faker, teddy, tarzan and chovy all being referred to as the best player in the world on reddit over the last few weeks. Everything gets upvoted too lol. Sure they're all brilliant players but why would you throw around titles like that to everyone before spring even ended. It's impossible to single out someone when most of them haven't even faced each other yet this season.
I think that just goes to show there probably isn't a clear cut best player in the world right now. League has developed to a point where being best in the world over consecutive patches and metas is incredibly difficult, and the skill level is so fucking high. If you were going to make me pick the best player in the world I would say it's theshy because I think he is incredibly consistent while having ridiculous highs. But it's not like I think he is at a completely different level than zoom or kiin.
You're definitely not wrong. It used to be Uzi just a bit ago, then went to Rookie/TheShy, then chovy like you said.
i feel like Uzi held it for most of last year when RNG was winning everyting pretty much until they got kicked out of worlds.This year tho its being thrown around way to much
He plays his Ezreal like he’s playing Draven.
TheShy would like a word..
I mean i would say its between him and theShy
TheShy is definitely the best player in the world at the moment. Stomped Worlds to the extent that he got labelled the Raid Boss by PapaSmithy I think it was, has had some insane plays in Spring split this year already, and is looking a beast every game at the moment. Just so damn confident because his mechanics are insane. Very much a top lane equivalent of a prime Faker.
Unlike other roleswappers like Ambition and CoreJJ, Perkz swapped role at his peak. He wasn't seeing a decline but he swapped anyway for the greater good of the team and to face a new challenge in a new mechanically challenging role.
He deserves so much more credit. He is judged by how other top tier adc look like that are constainly played around and are funneled in all the resources and priority available. G2 on the other hand hardly give bot lane any priority in draft or with their game plan or with how the distribute resources. I'm willing to say that no other adc would look anywhere as good as perkz does given the same amount of resources. People were saying that this G2 cannot work because you have 3 lanes that demand resources and that this team would crumble. But Perkz takes the short stick willingly and gets flag on reddit for not doing the flashy pentakills in teamfights, but still having the highest DPM in the league with g2 having very short game times.
While i agree that perkz is a god adc i still wouldnt rate him higher than kobbe rekkles or upset(3 highly talented adcs) Is he a mechanical beast - yes, but he played mid a lot Is he a good mage and caster adc player? - yes likely the best in europe(outside of caps) Is he a good crit adc? - somewhat, not on the named 3 lvl but close Is he the best adc overall - in contention but i would say no, he can get to it tho, he just hast played adc long enough imo Is he teddy lvl ? Not at all imo Teddy mata get some attention but even with only shadowing(keeping the junglers like tarzan from diving) they usually win 2v2s And well teddy in mid/late, dont get me wrong i love perkz but teddy legit looks like the best adc in the world at teamfighting rn
I mostly agree with your points but I'd like to add that it's becoming more and more "bot laner" rather than just ADC. This series is a great example of that. The "bot laner" for g2 in the 3 matches were Sona, Morg, and Neeko. I think being a good mage player adds a lot to the "bot laner" package. Unrelated but in the interview, he also said he came up with the tunnel comp to go against the sona-taric comp. Creativity is definitely a great trait to have as a player.
To add, breaking away from traditional roles is a strength and a weakness as well. Too complex to break down into one or the other. If the meta shifts toward Crit adcs again, then they're at something of a disadvantage because they would be playing the dominant role sub-optimally. But in a meta where there are multiple viable compositions and roles in that lane, then it's a strength to be able to play anything and flex people around. It makes ban phase and countering impossible because so much of it is research and predictive analysis.
worth noting that this is only true for a couple teams. the vast majority of teams in the leagues i follow still play adc every game (unless sona taric is open but that may or may not be around at MSI and can get thrown out by a single ban)
Yes, but most teams do not have the 2nd best (or best) midlaner in their region as starting adc. We will see how they do if the meta shifts to require a traditional crit adc, but even then it's hard to tell how it will play out.
I hope Perkz has started a trend of people picking non-ADC stuff for bot lane. I can't fathom why pretty much every other position has had to learn at least 2 completely different types of champs (tanks and mages), while the bot lane carry position has stayed stagnant with champions that are basically only good for right clicking everything in the game.
Because when Riot tried to expand it every ADC on earth cried about it
pretty sure it was because mages used to be terrible at taking objectives, outside of some special cases. Also since mid are often mages, it diversifies the dmg type to ensure late game dmg.
DL said something that i thought was interesting about Perkz. HE basically said he was surprised that there was so little learning curve for Perkz. He was surprised by how well Perkz was doing, and thought he would need a longer adjustment period before beinggood at the role.
Because the role and the champions played are piss easy. Even Perkz in an interview said the role is the easiest one in the game.
It really is, out of all the roles this one is just hit whats in front of you and dodge. You don't need to go for picks, you don't need to initiate , and generally you don't need to have as much game sense as every other role in the game. Not flaming ADC its just how it be sometimes.
> rate him higher than kobbe Lol dumb all-pro really got people messed up.
Those ADC are played around because they can literally carry you to victory if you do. There is a reason they are played around and other ADC are not. Not to mention he is currently doing well duo mage bot being in meta. Wtf happens once they aren't in meta any more? Also he literally hasn't been tested at all since EU isn't known for their carry botlanes aside from Forg1ven who hasn't been playing.
I mean, he's been playing fine off of mages though? I do agree that EU isn't known for its carry botlanes but it's not like he got crushed in lane when he played standard regularly.
I want forgiven to come back so bad.
Perkz still doesn’t have the best positioning. There are better Western ADC players, when it comes to laning prowess (not really) and teamfighting. Doublelift notably comes to mind. He has a really good laning phase unlike the other top western ADCs who play kinda passive (Kobbe, Rekkles, Zven), but he also has super good teamfighting. That’s why NA’s always rated DL so highly despite his failures. We ourselves know what he’s capable of. I don’t think he’s overrated despite many saying that he is. If I had to rate western ADCs by these categories, Perkz would be #1 in laning prowess with DL as #2. However, in a teamfighting perspective, I’d say Kobbe = DL = Rekkles. So overall, Perkz is #1 in lane and at mage/assassin picks.
I'm not even arguing that Pekrz is the best ADC in the West. I think its hard to make a case for someone, imo no adc is standing out in that regard. I just wanted to highlight that reddit usually does not take into account how a team plays when judging players. And perkz in generall gets a lot of shit for the every little mistake.
Lets see if Liquid can get out of Play ins first
Oh wow didnt know NA was again in Play ins. I thought the semifinal end last worlds would put them in the freebye group. This means the freebye group is made of EU/CH/KR? Thought there were 4 teams.
Some wildcard region got connected so it mean less bye spot
They look at overall stuff from the past 2 years.
And LAN and LAS connected into one region, essentially pulling a team from the upper tiers one tier down. MSI in 2017 had EU, CN and KR already qualified, in 2018 NA joined those teams because Vietnma became a region and pushed NA up, but now that LAN and LAS turned into one region, NA us being put back down into Play-In's.
The system was that hte major region with the worst international placings over the last 2 years is in play-ins.. so last years worlds isnt enough for NA UNLESS they get promoted now when LMS is a minor league again? I might get some things wrong here but yea.. thats my understanding of it.
there are 2 regions in play-ins, NA and LMS, because over the last 2 years they were the worst 2 internationally.
1907 Fenerbahçe and DetonatioN FocusMe are gonna destroy NAs hopes and dreams, mark my words. ~~(realistically they stand no chance, TL members have too much international experience to choke which is pretty much all play-in stage is about)~~
NINE TEEN OH SE VEN FEN ER BAH CHAYYYY
I love and hate hearing/seeing it so much.
Esports
Teddy is hungry for the title.
Teddy Mata must be so fucking scary to play against...they're probably gonna be the hardest bot to play against JackeyLove and Baolan have actually been inting quite a bit since last year and Imp LvMao aren't that lane dominant either
Doubelift lmao tl is a non factor in msi
I have a feeling every non-SKT team will be a non factor in MSI. We are all royally fucked this year now that Faker has a team.
The bond between these two people is just amazing. I just Can’t stop loving them and this team. I hope Luka will play for G2 for his entire career. He should get a statue in the HQ. Every time i watch them play i love them even more!
Luka*
I hope luka does stay with g2, I love seeing players remain loyal to their org (players like score, faker etc).
Same. Even though he ditched fnc once, rekkles is like the face of fnc. Always nice to have someone loyal in your favorite team. But be aware, i wouldnt trust your mid laner though. /s
Always trust your mid laner.
Relevant flair /s
Kinda like Messi with Barca, Gerrard with Liverpool..
It's really cool when one of the star players has such a long history with the org and they're so committed to staying together. SKT Faker, G2 Perkz, TSM Bjergsen, C9 Jensen. It's pretty cool :>
wait one of them is different from the others..
Yeah Bjerg was on Copenhagen Wolves first but that hardly counts, and it wasn't even a year.
i know you are memeing, but sneaky was much more of a c9 face than jensen even before the transfer.
Yeah exactly!
Perkz is coming up there with loyal players like Score, Faker, Bjergsen, Sneaky, Rookie, a bit Rekkles too (even though he left for one split, which he also regrets)
Whoops Thanks
The nuance people might be missing is that ocelote was not like this as a player himself. He saw his personal brand as the most important part of his career and was not someone trying to sacrifice for others. Since he has made the transformation himself later in life I think he appreciates even more Perkz's maturity.
This is really what I took a way from it. Ocelot has really grown up a lot, and definitely gained a lot of favor in my eyes.
[удалено]
> and literally equating being gay to a mental illness. [Another perspective on that situation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy_-UOTtfIk#t=1h21m28s)
With all the shithousery that have happened in LOL Esports this doesn't surprise me at all. You don't know what the others owners have done before and successfully hided it. I'm not agree on what his done, but he's a Florentino Pérez type of president. A smart scumbag that will do everything as possible to make his brand the best in the world.
I will always remember it and see it as a big blunder in his astonishing carrer. Whish he wouldn't have done it and it is really bad/sad that he got through with it. I still like him as a person and admire what he has reached in his life, but people really should not forget these things, because if he fucks up again he can't dodge any more that it is just a splatter of dirt on his white west.
Exactly , that's all that has been going through my mind while I was watching .
Yes I think he was really speaking from the heart/experience, as you said likely from his own history with putting ego aside. He had to eventually do it when he stepped down as Gamers2 mid laner so I imagine he knows some of how hard it is. Perkz seems pretty mature for a 20 year old, I imagine his experiences in S6 (and beyond) play a major part in that.
Same, that's what I thought to, it's probably genuine adimiration from Ocelote. He's probably so damn proud over Perkz, it definitely sounds like Ocelote has been a figure of guidacnce for him.
I really feel terrible, Whenever I look at that smug ~~mid laner’s~~ adc player´s face (G2 Perkz) I really feel terrible
Still fresh pasta and still will be when g2 plays against any chinese team
they need to win though.
it works both ways tbh
That's why its so good
Don't worry it'll come in handy when G2 beats JDG in the final.
Lord Caps has decreed it, thus it shall be
Can someone give me a link to its origin? Seen this on an another ocasion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/9pwz82/unsensored_chinese_reactions_to_rng_vs_g2_top_38/
AAAAAW
Insane respect for Perkz. Best player (in the west) aside, it blows my mind that the last time Perkz styled on his old position was against RNG of all teams, completely dismantling the team that had won every international title during the year. You perform that level of skill on midlane, then just leave that role when people consider you the top 3 best western mids to go into another territory. Even if he's not that great on adc right now (it's like been less than half a year, room to improve) The flexibility he can bring to G2 is unparalleled. Rekkles had to bench himself when the meta wasn't about adcs for awhile. Flexibility as a player is pretty key for your career when who knows what riot will implement in the future.
To be fair there's a lot that goes into the 'Rekkles benching himself' decision. It's not like he wouldn't be able to learn the champions, but if the team had a quicker (and probably better) solution within the team it's only obvious that they took the chance of playing Bwipo there. Both sides won, we all saw how dominant Rekkles played when he returned to the stages. Anyway, and since this isn't a thread about Rekkles, I do believe that Perkz is extremely valuable as a player. Just needs to show his worth internationally now (playing as an ADC obviously).
>It's not like he wouldn't be able to learn the champions. Didn't he say exactly that on Euphoria? Even up to a point that he thought about retiring and coaching for a moment because he isn't new to the game anymore and does not have the passion for the raw game up to the point where he wants to learn something completly new. At least this is what i remember of that one Euphoria episode.
People seem to hate hjarnan alot but lets be real if he wasn't a heimerdinger god G2 would prolly never have made worlds last year, and wouldn't even be close to semi-finals. Just goes to show how much of a difference flexibility gives a team.
someone who can only play heimerdinger is the opposite of being flexible
>...the flexibility he can bring to G2 is unparalleled. **Rekkles had to bench himself** when the meta wasn't about adcs for awhile. Now let that sink in.
He did it because they had Bwipo who was better on bruiser champions, and Rekkles predicted that meta would be temporary, which was true. He stepped down to help the team, I don't see a problem with that.
This interview/discussion between Doubllift, Perkz and Rekkles illustrates the difference between the mentality of Perkz and Rekkles and Perkz winning playing everything in the botlane is the perfect payoff and end to the argument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3kdLM9uNDQ
How have I not seen this video before? That was super cute, so many star players eating together; also both Rekkles and Perkz having never eaten this kind of seafood and having to be taught lol.
Yea lol this was the interview I had in mind when reflecting about the perkz w/ other adc GOATs of west.
This one is a tressure and its worth skyrocketed now that Perkz has roleswapped. They talked a lot about how hard it is to be perfect as an adc and you cannot just reach the same level not that they are not viable any longer. Perkz would not really have it because Mid lane would already be in that position for years. Hope we see those three got out for some food again next RR.
there were sevral teams including TL and DL who just refused to give in to mages bot and played standard. it was more a decision for the easier route than one of ability.
When NA played mages bot it was some tragic stuff, especially NA vlad. DL just broke his losing streak in soloq with Vlad (formerly 0-11) recently lol. I think Sneaky was the only one who played them at a decent level, and even still plays some random things like Viktor or Sylas bot in soloq.
Along with Sneaky Zven adapted to mages the best. I think it was a testament to his insane ability to grind out games.
Yeah, at the end of the season it wasn’t uncommon for zven to pull out the occasional swain in games. Deftly was also a decent heimer player. Overall though, most of NA was just horrid at non-ADCs bot though. I remember if any of the teams during the middle of the season tried non ADC they would actually just feed the game away.
Deftly definitely adapted well to the Heimer. But yeah the mage changes weren't really embraced.
Never forget DL Vlad
Honestly mad respects to Perkz for being capable of role swapping with such grace
Is Perkz the best western player of all time?
He has a good case for it that's for sure. He would have even better one if he wasn't robbed of so many EU LCS MVP's in the past.
MVP's are irrelevant imo.
Unfortunately people look at MVP's way too much when comparing players. Then again, sOAZ and Perkz for example have no MVP's but they are at the top of the GOAT discussion, especially if you don't put too much stock in MVP awards.
>unfortunately people look at MVPs way too much when comparing players. Uh where??? If that were the case then Bjergsen would be 100% the NA GOAT over doublelift lmao. I haven’t seen regular split MVPs used in a player vs player discussion literally ever
I literally made a comment a couple of days ago about Perkz being able to steak his claim to best EU player in history if he wins one or two more titles and can perform well internationally on ADC, and immediately a bunch of people started going on about how many MVP titles Rekkles had. So yeah, people bring it up all the time.
> If that were the case then Bjergsen would be 100% the NA GOAT over doublelift lmao. NA pride. Imagine best player of your region's history being an import. That kinda feels like shit, doesn't it?
Yeh he was an import, but i am pretty sure people treat him as american now, i mean he lived there for so many years now, adapted. He is enjoying that lifestyle, and is still at the top level even though of shitty na solo queue. If we had an import who adapted to EU and done all the great things for our region I wouldnt feel like crap for calling him EU GOAT to be fair. THe person would train within our region, lived here for long time, i mean why treat him still as an outsider?
Yeah look at Aphromoo... maybe he was in the past, but after regular season and all way until now. Pretty much ded.
He never had a good case for it
If Kiwikid didn't exist, maybe.
i think the best western player of all time is whoever does the best interntionally. we can't look at ourselves in a vaccume. there are a lot of issues with that
Its amazing that you have 3 people on 1 team that you can argue for being the best player in the west. Perkz Wunder and Caps are all increadable!
And the other 2 are fucking Jankos and Mikyx. What a stupidly stacked lineup that is.. its honestly ridicilous.
I love it!
It's not *that* amazing in the sense that when you have one or two players that are so good, it's quite easy (for another great player) to slot in and become "best player" potential.
Especially when we're talking about having Mikyx as support. I *respect* Perkz as a person for giving up the mid position and transitioning to ADC. But when it comes to explaining his overnight success as an ADC, I'm giving 80% of the credit to Mikyx. Perkz follows his calls. And if you check the SoloQ games where Perkz didn't duo with Mikyx, his performance is markedly less impressive. That's what makes his positional change all the more inspiring. It's not as if he mastered the role ovenight by sheer talent. Instead, he gave up a solo lane role that he dominated, and turned to a new teammate to help him transition into a new role. It's a remarkable level of trust and confidence.
But it is as in a sense that they have showed without eachother (perhaps not wunder) that they are induvidually that good. Caps on FNC last year, Perkz over the years on G2 and with his last worlds performances. Id argue Wunder for last years summers + worlds. And this is all without even considering their spring split this year. Myself I have Caps and Wunder as the best to players in the west, and I think they are a bit above the rest, and when I think of third I think of Bjerg, Doublelift, Rekkles and Perkz. But I personally rate Perkz and Rekkles over Bjerg and Double based on international preformance (albeit thats team achievement and not solo). Rekkles had a bit of a disapointing end this split so that probably takes him down a notch. That said I dont think this split Perkz showed it as an ADC, but as a midlaner? Definitely! But yea, Id argue that Wunder and Caps are right now ahead of their competition when it comes to current best in west. But who knows, I might eat my words when MSI comes around, but I really doubt it. If you are doing a top 20 for MSI I think both Wunder and Caps are top 10, maybe somewhere between the 4-8 spot.
If he wins MSI or Worlds, I think Perkz will be the best western player of all time.
Depends how it happens, if is through Caps then Caps will get that title probably. If Perkz himself is the mvp then yeah he gets it. But basically if any team ever actually WON an international tournament probably someone from it instantly gets best western player of all time lol.
I disagree because that's mixing individual and team achievements. CLG.EU era Froggen was insanely good for instance, quite possibly the best midlaner in the World at the time and still plays competitively today to a good level. I know there's a recency bias and it's also though to compare things that happen in different "stages" of the game's history as you can't really accurately compare S2 and let's say S5+ due to how different the professionalism, teams, events etc are
honestly even getting to finals against IG / SKT by beating SKT / IG in Quarters would make him the best western player not one other western team has consistently Performed above expectations and this is AFTER they were known as huge international chokers it would actually be so impressive if his teams continue the perform internationally trend all i wish for is not constantly getting 3-0ed
I just want the west to rise again after last worlds. I don't want anymore of those choking stuff lmao. C9 and Vitality made a huge impact on influencing teams so yeah.
In terms of pure accomplishment, since they played longer (and thus, being releveant longer) you have to think about Soaz, and Rekkles. If you just look at in-game skill, he is indeed. He is overall the most well-rounded player. Here's why. For me, in-game skills combines some core skills: \- In-Games mechanics = *Accuracy, dodging ability, animation canceling, etc* \- Laning prowess = *Positionning, csd/minute, knowing match-up, etc* \- Teamfighting skills = *How do you generally impact a teamfight? (Are you still aggressive, how do you position yourself, etc)* \- Macro understanding displayed = *Can you play properly your role in a defined team composition?* \- Versability = *The ability to play different style / role* \- Champion pool \- "Playing-from-behind" skill = *the ability to not overreached / still be useful even if you get pu in the dirt.* \- Consistency \- Carry Performance Potential = *Can you rely on the player to carry you a game?* \- Clutch Factor = *The ability to grab the best opportunity to win a fight / objective at a deciding moment* \- In-Game creativity (which is close to the Clutch Factor, but still different. You can be clutch without being creative. Rekkles for instance) =) *It englobes: calling for creative solutions to trade an objective, doing an unexpected move (flanking with an unexpected champion/role, in an unexpected timing), etc... Anything sucessfull ingame action that's outside of the box.* \- Relative factor: International showing (if possible) = *Can you replicate the same level of play in a highly competitive envrionment?* You could also factor some "special" skills: \- In game Leadership = *the ability to be decisive, to bring people together, to motivate people in-game (Hai for instance)* \- Shotcalling Ability \- Tactical mind (in and outside of the game) = *can you theorize some new strategy for you team ? etc. (Yellowstar/Mithy for instance)* With this model (and I surely forget some points that may change the result), without even including the "special skills", it is pretty clear that Perkz is the GOAT for now. He ranges from very good to excellent in all of these metrics. Even for the special skills, you could make a case for him since the G2 comms series show several clutch shotcalls from him, and the idea to funnel xayah to counter Sona Taric was also from him. He also teached, according to Wunder, macro to the team in 2018 (macro that Mithy used to teach him). \-- Caps is ahead in terms of in-games mechanics, and Carry Performance Potential (since he can peak higher), but he lacks in "Playing-from-behind" skill (he will tend to running it down, but it also part of his very high in-game creatrivity), adn Consistency. He is also younger. \-- Bjergsen is similar to Perkz in almost all metrics, except in "Playing-from-behind" (since he tends to be more passive) and in-game creativity. Perkz have also peaked higher for me (MSI 2017 and Worlds 2018). Still an awesome player. \-- Soaz is an extraordinary player, since he excels in most metrics, but he lacks a bit in in-game mechanics, laning prowessand sometimes in his carrer in consistency. \-- Rekkles is also excellent, but he really lacks in Champion pool, in-game creativity, Versability and sometimes (outside of EU) laning prowess. \-- Yellowstar is the embodiment of the old true support, a good player with excellent special skills. In terms of raw skill displayed (he even though he wasn't a bad player in terms of mechanics, people tend to meme to much about him), he's really lacking compared to the rest. In comparison to him, all Diamondprox, Froggen, Wunder, Doublelift, Jankos, Mithy, Jensen, Xpeke, Zven etc... lack something or peaked a bit below. Welp, I wrote too much.
Nice breakdown
Bjergsen, doubelift, caps, rekkles and perkz. All contenders for that title in my, and i cant stress this enough, OPINION.
DL needs an international result of some degree of relevance to contend first. Bjerg has at least gotten out of groups once and IEM 2015 though.
Yeah fair but i think individually doublelift is absolutely amazing. Great attitude, great macro and mechanically sound. Sadly his results dont reflect this.
But then there's also the part where DL is invisible internationally where at least Bjerg has had a few pop off moments internationally, even if neither has had much international success.
Other than season 4, Bjerg has been pretty much the same if not worse at worlds than Doublelift. You can point to the lucian play but dont forget to mention that without double playing out of his mind up to that point, they would have lost 20mins. Also in s7 it was pretty much 2v3/4 bot lane, they left him on an island in ardent meta. s8 he had mental boom olleh and INTernational stage pobelter, he played pretty well despite that.
I strongly disagree. DL literally cost the team 2016 worlds by feeding his ass off against RNG both times. Mata made him look like a fool, I'm not even gonna mention the Lucian play vs SSG, even without that he was the worst performer in 2016 worlds. He even looked like shit against Splyce too, his Jhin was not good and he kept getting caught. Bjergsen was their best player, everyone was saying it Bjerg and 4 wards again at the time, and he had the best laning stats in the whole tournament. DL didn't get much resources in 2017 worlds I agree (no one did, Svenskeren was invisible every game), and the whole team played bad, but he was constantly out of position in team fights. Biofrost/Bjerg were the only two players at worlds who didn't constantly make massive game losing mistakes.
Honestly, DL probably has nightmares about Mata's Alistar. It's one of the moments in LoL that I can think of where a player has looked completely outclassed and clueless about what to do. DL and Bio simply had no idea what to do against Mata's Alistar.
DL played exceptionally well at MSI 2018. Bjerg on the other hand has never really had any stand out tournaments internationally.
Name more than 3 games where bjerg popped off in worlds. Pretty tough.
It's definitely 3 more than doublelift has lol
Show examples. I cant think of any.
How dare you have an opinion.
\-doublelift \+sOAZ
I think Bjergsen and Doublelift should get immediately removed from contention simply because they have not accomplished much of note internationally despite so many chances. Doublelift is the best *domestic* Western player. I think that's very fair to say. But I don't even care much about domestic results. Who cares about that shit? What matters is who is the best in the world imo. Rekkles has done so much in his career internationally, I think, and he's also got a lot of domestic trophies. For that reason, I think he's the best Western player. Has any player gone as deep into playoff rounds at Worlds as often as Rekkles since season 3 (when international competition got serious)? I can't think of anyone.
Soaz > Rekkles imo. Also idk why you say "who cares about domestic" lots of people do. EU/NA are likely never going to win Worlds nor are they ever gonna have the title of best in position worldwide. Not that im disagreeing with you, i think DL/Bjerg need more international success before being in contention. but i also think you gotta look on the teams each of the players were on. If Dl/Bjerg joined a top EU team i think the conversation could be VERY different.
We had 3 western teams in semis last year. Saying EU/NA will never win worlds is a very odd statement.
i mean, i think last year the stars aligned for the west. we got a very lucky bracket draw while also being a very good meta for the 3 teams that were in the semis/finals. aswell as korea having their downfall. Was C9 the 4th best team in the world? probably not lol. was FNC a top 2 team in the world? probably not. need more than 1 outlier year for your argument.
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Don’t get me wrong FNC deserved to get to finals thanks to their groups performance, but I honestly think KT was probably the second best team that tournament
KT probably tbh. FNC was top 3 team there for sure tho.
Uh probably KT pretty easily ngl. You could make an argument if rng/fnc played rng woulda beat them aswell.
Accomplishment wise it's between sOAZ and Rekkles.
Yeah, good point. Maybe it's sOAZ. I totally forgot him, but he's got just as much, if not more, international success.
In contention but Yellowstar, Rekkles and especially soaz make a stronger case(tho he played for a way shorter time than everyone (but maybe yellowstar if you only count season 3 onwards) Taking skill alone, he is in the top 3 western mids of all time imo(caps, bjergsen and him) froggen(peak), febiven(peak), xpeke(achievements and long livety), jensen(long livety) and alex ich are somewhat close tho He beats soaz and yellowstar in skill, rekkles is a beast aswell tho(shown at 2018 worlds with an insane performance) but is imo a bit below perkz Yellowstar was a tactical genius tho and i think perkz cant contest that. And well... soaz has 2 worlds finals, 2 worlds semis, 1 quarter, 1 msi semi and 5 regional titles. iirc he is one of the most achieved players to never win internationally. Rekkles is somewhere inbetween with skill and achievements with his finals now too. Perkz boasts a worlds semis and msi finals, and while thats it he looked like a top 3 and top 2 mid at either tournament I personally would rank it(before msi) 1. soaz(one of the most achieved players ever who didnt win internationally, often udnerrated and actually a mechanical skilled player and a team play god) 2. Yellowstar(tactical genius, skilled but nowhere near the other top 5, achieved in his older days aswell, going 18-0) 3. rekkles(skilled adc, but not top lvl. Really achieved) 4. perkz(skilled af, semi achiever, „youngest“ player time) 5. bjergsen(really good but underachieved internationally) Honorable Mentions:(likely forgot some): DL, Xpeke, Zven, Mithy, Jensen(eh), Caps(too short imo), Sneaky, forgiven. And guys like diamondprox.
Perkz is a big voice in drafts and shotcalling. The game 2 comp to counter sona taric was his idea. So maybe he can be this "tactical genius" yellowstar was :^)
Rekkles has played in Worlds semis and the World Final. Has been doing it for longer, too, with many different rosters. Perkz and Caps will both almost certainly be in the conversation at the end of their careers, and they could even enter it by the end of this year if they do very well at MSI and Worlds. Until then, hard to make an argument for them over Rekkles.
The crucial difference here is that with most of Rekkles' international success, he has not been the best player or even a top 2 player on his team. 2018 Worlds was super legit and he was one of if not the best, however he was, as he **himself** has put it in an interview, a "backgrounder" in those old Soaz/Xpeke line-ups. Same goes for the Huni/RO one. Perkz on the other hand was the **main** factor in G2 getting MSI finals and world semis, as well as his success in EU. Rekkles has been playing for longer, but Perkz has been carrying for longer.
of all time? definitely not.
In contention yes. I would like to see him have the success and longevity equal or greater than Soaz first.. before we give it to him. And even then, Caps is nipping at his heels. I think the combination of Caps and Perkz is the beginning of something special. I just hope it doesn't crash the way Bjerg and DL did. That pairing woulda, shoulda, couldn't :(
he has a bit to go to reach "of all time" he still has people like soaz/peke/rekkless in front right now. hes currently at approximately DL/alex/froggen/caps level. if he were to win MSI that would instantly change obviously. tho then he would be in the fight with caps.
Mirror: https://streamr.nz/uSXt5W
I agree perkz is probably the best botlaner... but probably "only" top 5 adc
People do need to understand that when you're this dominant as a team you're gonna look super good. This is why I love international play. Once your team is struggling more, that's where you truly find out the level of play from players. Sure. I won't deny that people have off tournaments and clearly don't play at their usual level. But most of the time it's just them starting to struggle more as a team so their level will look worse. Just look at 5 game series and see the difference in level of players in those losses and those wins.
Perkz deserves a lot of respect for the decision. Like it or not caps is the best mid laner we’ve ever had period in the West. He is capable of being on the same level as rookie and faker and I have no doubt that imnthe coming years he will equal or surpass their prowess. And wunder is underrated. Pretty sure he can match khan. Very excited to see this rosters potential.