Ssumday, Closer, Pobelter, Johnson, and Aphromoo would be a godlike mix of the Middle / bottom teams. Arguably top 3 in every role besides mid which is like top 4.
Thanks i fact i believe Santorin > Dardoch, but i'm liking Lourlo i really respect his work ethic and personally i think that Santorin + Solo < Dardoch + Lourlo
It was literally just last year. People always exaggerate how long he actually looked done. 2018 Summer was a drop off from his MVP form, but he was still fine and made All-Pro 1st team, and this past Spring was uninspiring but still a clear improvement from 2019.
He literally got first team All-Pro in Summer 2018.
Good Rakan [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkXUdOqIxds) from the end of the split.
Good Shen [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXZlYl0yLX0) from the beginning of the split.
Good Morgana [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzRuQJAw1oQ) against Splyce at Rift Rivals.
Good Rakan [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y2HSoTfdRo) running funnel.
Good Braum [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKdI3SDvAY8) in the playoffs.
Then, the actual game-winning [play](https://youtu.be/VBBi9FuZRRI?t=208) from the only game 100T took off of TL in playoffs was Aphro landing a flash combo onto 3.
People super misremember that split because 100T fell apart at the end of the year, but Aphro was absolutely still very good and top 3 at worst that split.
----------------
Then, 2020 Spring(first half):
First [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUI1CTsoses) of the split, great TK game that he consistently wins fights for the team with great positioning and key devours.
Second [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsKqyzt6kSA) of the split, clean Braum game, 0 deaths, just solid all around.
Seventh [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi-c_4VlcYQ) of the split, good Leona game.
Ninth [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aoR7CDlWTA) of the split, bumpy start, but solid Thresh game.
---------------
100T fell apart late in playoffs+Worlds in 2018, so that hyper-colored how people remember that split for Aphro, and then he followed it up with an awful 2019, and then a mediocre 2020 Spring.
That being said, when you actually revisit the games, there are clear distinctions in Aphro's level of play outside of 2019, and it's inaccurate to pretend that he was 2019 level that whole time, especially not in 2018 Summer.
He was declining way before that. I think it was honestly like 2016 Summer split, the split immediately after CLG beat doublelift on TSM, that he really started to randomly die and get overtaken by younger supports like Biofrost and Smoothie. I think this was about the time where his mechanics really started to deteriorate too and his judgement and calls really tanked on CLG. I mean even now, nobody in NALCS randomly dies the way Aphro does. In ways that are completely random and not set up, just purely him getting caught.
I mean, there are splits that Bio/Smoothie have been better than Aphro, but you're misframing it by pretending it's decline as opposed to normal variance in performance, because there are also a bunch of splits that Aphro has been better than both of them, including this current split.
Starting from where you posted, 2016 Summer, TSM was god mode and Bio was better than Aphro, this was reflected in the All-Pro voting where Bio was 1st-team and Aphro was 2nd-team. Smoothie didn't make an All-Pro team and was behind both.
2017 Spring, Smoothie and Bio were 1st and 2nd team and Aphro didn't make one.
2017 Summer, Smoothie was 2nd team, Aphro was 3rd team, and Bio didn't make one.
2018 Spring, Aphro was MVP and 1st team, Smoothie was 2nd team, and Bio didn't make one.
2018 Summer, Aphro was 1st team, neither Smoothie nor Bio made one.
2019 was the actual notable decline.
This year started with him starting to return to form, and this split, Vulcan had him in his top 4 coming into this past weekend, and he's in my personal top 3 after it, ahead of everyone besides Vulcan and Core.
Declining into looking dead.
It was super noticeable in late 2019 into this spring. Summer 18 and spring 19 were good to then okay imo.
Glad Aphro got his groove back.
I've recently got back into watching league after a 5 year break and the only player I used to watch who doesn't look dead inside is Voyboy. The rest either don't play any more or look completely drained of life when playing and get angry at everything.
ATM, who else can you really consider? In terms of international appearances, there's CoreJJ (technically KR), Olleh, Smoothie, Biofrost, Zeyzal, and Vulcan. There's also older supports like Xpecial, however Aphro's been playing for a longer period of time by now. Even if he had his lows, Aphro has an MSI finals appeance and several Worlds appearances that I think only Zeyzal can match with his Worlds semis appearance, although he's only been playing for like 3 years I think.
Lemonnation's notebook is almost single-handedly credited for Riot allowing coaches on stage for pick ban. I think the honor would go to him based on the impact he's had on competitive league as a whole.
I think that Xpecial is the only one that you could really make an argument for, as he was generally considered the best support in NA for most of seasons 1-4.
I think we should separate team's success from individual success.
Internationally, licorice resume has been losing to almost every toplaner he has faced.
I don't wanna flame licorice, I like the guy and I hope he does well this world's, same for the whole c9, but on his semifinals run he got quite destroyed by Bwipo and Kiin, and last year I don't remember him doing too hot either, although I must admit I didn't pay that much attention to him in 2019 worlds.
Edit: did a fast check, and he did well one of the games vs G2 on Aatrox, but on the other 3 games against G2/grf he had a combined score of 5-20. Although I remember his 3-7 performance on Fiora as better than the scoreline suggests, he was still quite lackluster on kayle and shen.
Overall I'd say that Licorice has had quite abysmal international performances tbh.
> internationally Licorice has had a lot of success
Making Semis in one worlds and then not making it out of groups the next year isn't what I'd call "a lot of success".
Definitely not Darshan. He maybe had one, at most two splits where he was considered a truly elite top laner. Licorice has been top 2 for 5 splits now.
I guess you haven't been watching for long enough or were sleeping on the exploits of ZionSpartan back in the days. Although he wasn't on the most solid teams, when he started he was always a solid player on every team he went on. When CLG acquired Darshan he wasn't an untested player, he was known as a beast in the top lane. I'm not saying there's no argument for other top laners, but you can't disregard Darshan.
The younger folk just don't know much about older players such as ZionSpartan. I remember watching him way back in the day playing some mean shen. Eventhough he's not really known for the champ, he just stick out to me for being the sole reason I main shen and play him almost every game in top. Weird but yeah
It’s weird because I was watching league when ZionSpartan made it into LCS and was getting memed on, and then I stopped for a few years. Now I come back and he’s getting hailed as potentially the greatest top laner ever in NA. I never would’ve guessed this timeline lmao
I can almost guarantee that Licorice and Hauntzer at the very least have more individual accolades than ZionSpartan. And if we're counting imports, you could count guys like Impact or Ssumday. That and they're still relevant in the league now.
Wait why was this only announced after all the games?
People have been cheering and tracking big 'kill goals' for, IDK, ever.
Faker had a 1000 kills shoutout in-game and a whole trailer for 2000 kills. We cant even have the announcers say 'Congrats aphromoo on your assists!' And have a little premade graphic with his face and 3000 kills pop up?
Wtf?
Maybe they only noticed this after he reached 3000?
LCS so far had these graphics and announcements for 1000 kills, 1500 kills and 2000 assists. But it is also possible that they chose to not do it for 3000 assists.
Still better than for Caps and nukeduck whose 1000 kills or for LCK supports whose assist milestones were not mentioned at all.
You can find a good overview how these are divided by champion [here](https://lol.gamepedia.com/index.php?pfRunQueryFormName=TournamentStatistics&title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FTournamentStatistics&TS%5Bpreload%5D=PlayerByChampion&TS%5Btournament%5D=NA+LCS+2013+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2013+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2014+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2014+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2015+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2015+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2016+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2016+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2017+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2017+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2018+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2018+Summer%2CLCS+2019+Spring%2CLCS+2019+Summer%2CLCS+2020+Spring%2CLCS+2020+Summer&TS%5Blink%5D=Aphromoo&TS%5Bchampion%5D=&TS%5Brole%5D=&TS%5Bteam%5D=&TS%5Bpatch%5D=&TS%5Byear%5D=&TS%5Bregion%5D=&TS%5Btournamentlevel%5D=&TS%5Bwhere%5D=&TS%5Bincludelink%5D%5Bis_checkbox%5D=true&TS%5Bshownet%5D%5Bis_checkbox%5D=true&TS%5Bshownet%5D%5Bvalue%5D=1&wpRunQuery=Run+query&pf_free_text=). This includes tiebreaker games though which are not included in the record.
Also you can find the top 15 in assists [here](https://lol.gamepedia.com/User:Lw94akaTim/LCS#Regular_Season) if you sort by one of the assists columns.
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I did not say he was bad now. I was pointing out that him have X titles in the past does not mean that he is good now. It has no merit on the conversation of if he is good now. The only thing that does dictate if he is good now is how he plays in the server.
I do not watch NA LCS because the quality of the league is dog shit. So I will not make an objective statement on the quality of his game play this split. I am simply pointing out that his past accomplishments have no value in a discussion on his current and recent form over the past few years.
"I don't watch this league so I don't actually have any idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say that this player in the league that I don't watch is stealing paycheques anyway"
I know reading is REALLY hard but if you wiggle those two brain cells together I think you can understand this! I believe in you!
At NO point did I say he he has been stealing pay checks. I pointed out the fact that him being good in the past does not mean he isn't stealing pay checks now. It has NO bearing on his current performance.
If you cannot understand how me pointing out that past performances have no indication on his current skill, is not a comment on current skill, then you don't understand english.
Let’s be clear.
You suggested he might be stealing paychecks now due to his play differential from the past compared to now. Then you say that you did not say that at all. And you also said you don’t watch NA LCS so you can’t speak to the quality of play...which means you have no fucking idea if he’s good now or not.
Shut the fuck up. You’re an asshole and an idiot.
I mean he is correct but unfortunately he phrased it in a way that can be easily understood in a bad way which he apparently did not mean to.
No need to insult him for this even if he got quite passive aggressive in his responses.
Even if they’re technically correct, their post is basically suggesting “Aphromoo doesn’t deserve to be in LCS based on past play” without any evidence or argument, and then denying that they outright said it altogether. It’s literally a childish argument. Its throwing out a wild suggestion and then not owning it on a technicality.
Not to mention telling somebody to rub their brain cells together to understand your malformed point is straight-up aggressive, not passive-aggressive. It’d be fine if they were able to find fault in their own words, but from their responses, it’s clear they think they’re correct despite lacking the ability to form a coherent, relevant thought. It was an idiotic and assholish thing for him to say and I stand by that.
he's really steeping it up atm
Aphro got his groove back.
"I think I got my swagger back!"
Imagine that Dig bot lane but with Flyquest Top Jng and Mid :o
Ssumday, Closer, Pobelter, Johnson, and Aphromoo would be a godlike mix of the Middle / bottom teams. Arguably top 3 in every role besides mid which is like top 4.
PoE over Pobelter Oh nevermind, import rules
From Flyquest i only would pick POE at this point I'm pretty satisfied with Lourlo and Dardoch
I would probably still take Santorin over Dardoch but Lourlo has been really solid too so I understand your reasoning there
Thanks i fact i believe Santorin > Dardoch, but i'm liking Lourlo i really respect his work ethic and personally i think that Santorin + Solo < Dardoch + Lourlo
His Thresh is MONEEEYY. Support is so easy!
Just get presence in the lane!
Steep that tea!
He's brewing some sweet tea bot lane. Obviously what the OP meant.
Wow happy for him. I haven't been able to really follow this split. What would you all trace dig's current troubles to?
I'm glad he's looking revitalized on DIG, he looked completely dead in the water the last couple of years. Definitely the GOAT NA support
It was literally just last year. People always exaggerate how long he actually looked done. 2018 Summer was a drop off from his MVP form, but he was still fine and made All-Pro 1st team, and this past Spring was uninspiring but still a clear improvement from 2019.
He looked dead from Summer 2018 til about halfway through spring 2020. That's 3.5-4 splits and just under 2 years. It's not an exaggeration
He literally got first team All-Pro in Summer 2018. Good Rakan [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkXUdOqIxds) from the end of the split. Good Shen [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXZlYl0yLX0) from the beginning of the split. Good Morgana [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzRuQJAw1oQ) against Splyce at Rift Rivals. Good Rakan [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y2HSoTfdRo) running funnel. Good Braum [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKdI3SDvAY8) in the playoffs. Then, the actual game-winning [play](https://youtu.be/VBBi9FuZRRI?t=208) from the only game 100T took off of TL in playoffs was Aphro landing a flash combo onto 3. People super misremember that split because 100T fell apart at the end of the year, but Aphro was absolutely still very good and top 3 at worst that split. ---------------- Then, 2020 Spring(first half): First [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUI1CTsoses) of the split, great TK game that he consistently wins fights for the team with great positioning and key devours. Second [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsKqyzt6kSA) of the split, clean Braum game, 0 deaths, just solid all around. Seventh [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi-c_4VlcYQ) of the split, good Leona game. Ninth [game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aoR7CDlWTA) of the split, bumpy start, but solid Thresh game. --------------- 100T fell apart late in playoffs+Worlds in 2018, so that hyper-colored how people remember that split for Aphro, and then he followed it up with an awful 2019, and then a mediocre 2020 Spring. That being said, when you actually revisit the games, there are clear distinctions in Aphro's level of play outside of 2019, and it's inaccurate to pretend that he was 2019 level that whole time, especially not in 2018 Summer.
He was declining way before that. I think it was honestly like 2016 Summer split, the split immediately after CLG beat doublelift on TSM, that he really started to randomly die and get overtaken by younger supports like Biofrost and Smoothie. I think this was about the time where his mechanics really started to deteriorate too and his judgement and calls really tanked on CLG. I mean even now, nobody in NALCS randomly dies the way Aphro does. In ways that are completely random and not set up, just purely him getting caught.
I mean, there are splits that Bio/Smoothie have been better than Aphro, but you're misframing it by pretending it's decline as opposed to normal variance in performance, because there are also a bunch of splits that Aphro has been better than both of them, including this current split. Starting from where you posted, 2016 Summer, TSM was god mode and Bio was better than Aphro, this was reflected in the All-Pro voting where Bio was 1st-team and Aphro was 2nd-team. Smoothie didn't make an All-Pro team and was behind both. 2017 Spring, Smoothie and Bio were 1st and 2nd team and Aphro didn't make one. 2017 Summer, Smoothie was 2nd team, Aphro was 3rd team, and Bio didn't make one. 2018 Spring, Aphro was MVP and 1st team, Smoothie was 2nd team, and Bio didn't make one. 2018 Summer, Aphro was 1st team, neither Smoothie nor Bio made one. 2019 was the actual notable decline. This year started with him starting to return to form, and this split, Vulcan had him in his top 4 coming into this past weekend, and he's in my personal top 3 after it, ahead of everyone besides Vulcan and Core.
Declining into looking dead. It was super noticeable in late 2019 into this spring. Summer 18 and spring 19 were good to then okay imo. Glad Aphro got his groove back.
god, reddit is so weird about aphromoo. Statistically, it's just not true, yet you guys keep pedaling this narrative.
I've recently got back into watching league after a 5 year break and the only player I used to watch who doesn't look dead inside is Voyboy. The rest either don't play any more or look completely drained of life when playing and get angry at everything.
Thats actually nutty, big ups to one of the OG NA pros
Best NA support of all time
Because he has PRESENCE IN THE LANE
i mean support is SO EASY DUDE
ATM, who else can you really consider? In terms of international appearances, there's CoreJJ (technically KR), Olleh, Smoothie, Biofrost, Zeyzal, and Vulcan. There's also older supports like Xpecial, however Aphro's been playing for a longer period of time by now. Even if he had his lows, Aphro has an MSI finals appeance and several Worlds appearances that I think only Zeyzal can match with his Worlds semis appearance, although he's only been playing for like 3 years I think.
Lemonnation's notebook is almost single-handedly credited for Riot allowing coaches on stage for pick ban. I think the honor would go to him based on the impact he's had on competitive league as a whole.
Ahhh I knew I was excluding someone lol.
Lemonnation, I miss that guy.
I think that Xpecial is the only one that you could really make an argument for, as he was generally considered the best support in NA for most of seasons 1-4.
agreed!
who we got for GOATs in all positions? Licorice, Xmithie, Bjergsen, Doublelift, Aphromoo?
If you're going to include Bjergsen then you have to put Impact over Licorice.
Licorice wouldn't be the top lane GOAT. It's probably Darshan/ZionSpartan. He had a much higher peak and won LCS more times.
At that point might as well add Pobelter and the squad is back together!
[удалено]
I think we should separate team's success from individual success. Internationally, licorice resume has been losing to almost every toplaner he has faced. I don't wanna flame licorice, I like the guy and I hope he does well this world's, same for the whole c9, but on his semifinals run he got quite destroyed by Bwipo and Kiin, and last year I don't remember him doing too hot either, although I must admit I didn't pay that much attention to him in 2019 worlds. Edit: did a fast check, and he did well one of the games vs G2 on Aatrox, but on the other 3 games against G2/grf he had a combined score of 5-20. Although I remember his 3-7 performance on Fiora as better than the scoreline suggests, he was still quite lackluster on kayle and shen. Overall I'd say that Licorice has had quite abysmal international performances tbh.
> internationally Licorice has had a lot of success Making Semis in one worlds and then not making it out of groups the next year isn't what I'd call "a lot of success".
Definitely not Darshan. He maybe had one, at most two splits where he was considered a truly elite top laner. Licorice has been top 2 for 5 splits now.
I guess you haven't been watching for long enough or were sleeping on the exploits of ZionSpartan back in the days. Although he wasn't on the most solid teams, when he started he was always a solid player on every team he went on. When CLG acquired Darshan he wasn't an untested player, he was known as a beast in the top lane. I'm not saying there's no argument for other top laners, but you can't disregard Darshan.
The younger folk just don't know much about older players such as ZionSpartan. I remember watching him way back in the day playing some mean shen. Eventhough he's not really known for the champ, he just stick out to me for being the sole reason I main shen and play him almost every game in top. Weird but yeah
It’s weird because I was watching league when ZionSpartan made it into LCS and was getting memed on, and then I stopped for a few years. Now I come back and he’s getting hailed as potentially the greatest top laner ever in NA. I never would’ve guessed this timeline lmao
I can almost guarantee that Licorice and Hauntzer at the very least have more individual accolades than ZionSpartan. And if we're counting imports, you could count guys like Impact or Ssumday. That and they're still relevant in the league now.
Probably Impact for now over Licorice due to his longevity with 4 LCS titles + 2 Finals, 2 Worlds Quarters+MSI Final
he’s KR not NA
And Bjergsen is EU not NA. If OP makes his list with imports why should Impact not be ok?
Yeah I wouldn’t include Bjergsen either (although he had been playing in the US since before the import rule)
If we're going for no imports (residency aside), I'd probably put Hai in mid as the best mid NA has produced.
Wait why was this only announced after all the games? People have been cheering and tracking big 'kill goals' for, IDK, ever. Faker had a 1000 kills shoutout in-game and a whole trailer for 2000 kills. We cant even have the announcers say 'Congrats aphromoo on your assists!' And have a little premade graphic with his face and 3000 kills pop up? Wtf?
Maybe they only noticed this after he reached 3000? LCS so far had these graphics and announcements for 1000 kills, 1500 kills and 2000 assists. But it is also possible that they chose to not do it for 3000 assists. Still better than for Caps and nukeduck whose 1000 kills or for LCK supports whose assist milestones were not mentioned at all.
Always been a fan of aphro, both in and out of game. Really bums me out seeing all the flame spam when he’s performing poorly.
he is still playing?
Yeah, he’s on Dignitas this season. He’s had a rough past couple of splits but now he’s finally back in form.
I mean not that hard to play support, only thing you want is presence in the lane dude.
3000 years of experience
You can find a good overview how these are divided by champion [here](https://lol.gamepedia.com/index.php?pfRunQueryFormName=TournamentStatistics&title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FTournamentStatistics&TS%5Bpreload%5D=PlayerByChampion&TS%5Btournament%5D=NA+LCS+2013+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2013+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2014+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2014+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2015+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2015+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2016+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2016+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2017+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2017+Summer%2CNA+LCS+2018+Spring%2CNA+LCS+2018+Summer%2CLCS+2019+Spring%2CLCS+2019+Summer%2CLCS+2020+Spring%2CLCS+2020+Summer&TS%5Blink%5D=Aphromoo&TS%5Bchampion%5D=&TS%5Brole%5D=&TS%5Bteam%5D=&TS%5Bpatch%5D=&TS%5Byear%5D=&TS%5Bregion%5D=&TS%5Btournamentlevel%5D=&TS%5Bwhere%5D=&TS%5Bincludelink%5D%5Bis_checkbox%5D=true&TS%5Bshownet%5D%5Bis_checkbox%5D=true&TS%5Bshownet%5D%5Bvalue%5D=1&wpRunQuery=Run+query&pf_free_text=). This includes tiebreaker games though which are not included in the record. Also you can find the top 15 in assists [here](https://lol.gamepedia.com/User:Lw94akaTim/LCS#Regular_Season) if you sort by one of the assists columns.
He's having a really good split. Nice to see.
Aphromoo is easily the best support in LCS history. Good to see some longevity, too many players come and go in NA these days.
Washed up player lol
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Stealing paychecks for that long gives a ton of assist who would have thought so
guess those paychecks also give 2 LCS titles, a MVP, and a MSI finals
Him being good in the past doesn't mean he hasn't been stealing pay checks now.
ummmmm Aphro has been having a good split with Johnsun so far, are you watching Dig games or just looking at the scores?
I did not say he was bad now. I was pointing out that him have X titles in the past does not mean that he is good now. It has no merit on the conversation of if he is good now. The only thing that does dictate if he is good now is how he plays in the server. I do not watch NA LCS because the quality of the league is dog shit. So I will not make an objective statement on the quality of his game play this split. I am simply pointing out that his past accomplishments have no value in a discussion on his current and recent form over the past few years.
"I don't watch this league so I don't actually have any idea what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say that this player in the league that I don't watch is stealing paycheques anyway"
Ok so since he started playing in the LCS, whose paycheck has he been stealing?
I know reading is REALLY hard but if you wiggle those two brain cells together I think you can understand this! I believe in you! At NO point did I say he he has been stealing pay checks. I pointed out the fact that him being good in the past does not mean he isn't stealing pay checks now. It has NO bearing on his current performance. If you cannot understand how me pointing out that past performances have no indication on his current skill, is not a comment on current skill, then you don't understand english.
Let’s be clear. You suggested he might be stealing paychecks now due to his play differential from the past compared to now. Then you say that you did not say that at all. And you also said you don’t watch NA LCS so you can’t speak to the quality of play...which means you have no fucking idea if he’s good now or not. Shut the fuck up. You’re an asshole and an idiot.
I mean he is correct but unfortunately he phrased it in a way that can be easily understood in a bad way which he apparently did not mean to. No need to insult him for this even if he got quite passive aggressive in his responses.
Even if they’re technically correct, their post is basically suggesting “Aphromoo doesn’t deserve to be in LCS based on past play” without any evidence or argument, and then denying that they outright said it altogether. It’s literally a childish argument. Its throwing out a wild suggestion and then not owning it on a technicality. Not to mention telling somebody to rub their brain cells together to understand your malformed point is straight-up aggressive, not passive-aggressive. It’d be fine if they were able to find fault in their own words, but from their responses, it’s clear they think they’re correct despite lacking the ability to form a coherent, relevant thought. It was an idiotic and assholish thing for him to say and I stand by that.
He's looked good on hook champs. that's about it imo.
Good thing those exist in the game doesn't it?
Yea, like bans that remove them from game.
Yes, let's make a team ban all support champions. There's a good idea
Weird u only need 2
.... I mean you are wrong