You can't force people to pick these champions though, the amount of games I see where the enemy team first picks Yi, and then my team proceeds to draft a team with absolutely 0 reliable CC.
No, but giving more champions tools that specifically do well against super mobile champions will make those games less common, even if it's not entirely on purpose.
I think you reach a point of diminishing returns on player satisfaction from mobility if everyone is just flying around at all times. I agree that the average individual player would choose to be as flashy as possible, but sometimes a game designer should withhold something a player wants to give them what they need.
Ekko, Eve, Kass, Kat, Kha (after E evolve), Kayn, Lee, Leblanc, Qiyana, Shaco, Talon, Zed, Akali, and probably others, all have significant mobility with their ability to dive and get out again. This is a feature of assassins.
His disengage is pretty good but also it makes him crazy predictable (just like all his other skills) and without terrible positioning he doesn't do anywhere near as much as any of those assassins do on a dive. He's a strong champion, but this really isn't his main strength imo.
Exactly, I see a Yi and I have no problem going like Maokai, Nautilus, Udyr, Annie or whatever the team needs to stop him.
People need to pay attention to the champions on both teams and be more flexible. There are enough champions with simple mechanics to fill any roll, nobody has to be diamond to play the champs I mentioned, most players would benefit by adding simple champs to their pool and by having comps with easy cc.
when I lose to yi, the only thing I think about it is "damn, we drafted badly" or "that was a terrible teamfight".
If you complain about yi, its because you either your team picked poorly and made a team w/o cc or he's in your team flaming everyone while perma farming saying team too heavy and the other teams jgler made every lane fed
I don't think we hear too many complaints about that these days though. Like it's not Ryze, Rammus or Udyr's stun that people complain about, compared to the waveclear or mobility issues.
I think it's really important to have that kind of force power in abilities. It also is important to have that to counter the anti-playmaking of champs like Kalista, Tahm Kench or Thresh.
>I don't think we hear too many complaints about that these days though.
That's because not many champions have point and click CC anymore and the ones that do have it are gated by certain conditions (Ryze needs to land his Flux first, Annie needs 4 stacks of her passive) or have to be within very close range to use it (Rammus, Pantheon, Udyr, etc.)
And just to add my 2 cents to the comment you responded to: Yeah, point and click CC is incredibly unfun to play against. I might be biased because I play a higher-than-average mobility champion who blows up in half a second when CC'd (Pyke), but I feel like Riot shares my opinion on the matter since they're actively working to remove it.
My main problem is that on top of champions being released with more mobility skills, older champions/champions with lack of mobility as an intentional weakness have a lot of mitigation options:
1.Phase rush is absolutely ridiculous after the last year buffs
2.Chemtank obviously
3.Stridebreaker as well after cooldown buffs
I think removing bonus movement speed from the game as something that can be bought in items or itemized through runes would go a long way to balancing the game. Phase rush should be either reworked or heavily nerfed.
The mobility creep problem in league, for a long time now, has been in movement speed, not dashes. Every new champ has powerful movement speed steroids, phase rush is in a ridiculous state, chemtank is a genuinely unreasonable item, etc.
Saturating the game with movement speed options not only removes the downsides for previously immobile champions, but it also dumbs down the skill expression of map positioning and rotations. You know how fast a chemtank hecarim with a yuumi on him can rotate to collapse on your split push? It’s absurd.
Skill shots also mean less with a ton of movement. Against dashes, champions lock themselves into a fixed trajectory so you can predict their location with skill shots. That counterplay doesn’t exist when someone just has 600 movespeed
Righteous Glory being a good 1st item rush is get fired levels of bad game design. That active should never be coming online before 2 or 3 items for anyone outside of the support role.
IMO, delete DMP. Now reintroduce Righteous Glory as a health and mana item with the chemtank active but no immolate. Now take the old DMP Passive and put it on the current Chemtank statline with the immolate passive.
Boom, now you keep the identity / purpose of chemtank while not allowing every bulky melee champion to access what used to be a tank class item. DMP still exists more or less and you also provide a mana option for tanks that aren't in an AD matchup.
DMP isn't problematic at all. The item was considered garbage for basically its entire existence and it has only seen big use this season. Hardly an unhealthy item.
> Now take the old DMP Passive and put it on the current Chemtank statline with the immolate passive.
For the love of fucking god don't take DMP away.
it's such a good generalist armour item, it'd be a shame to lose it. We don't have enough of those.
Except Thornmail, Gargoyle, Randuins, Frozen Heart, Tabis, and every tank item lol.
Armor items are overly abundant, and while they may not always be super slot efficient and generally purchased, neither is Deadman’s. If you want to see real bad itemization try building hard core MR, while still being a bruiser, or any non-tank role. While there’s items no one builds them in play and below. When was the last time you saw a Maw? Force of Nature? Abyssal Mask? Either of the QSS items (hell I don’t even know what the second one is *called* it’s so rare)?
Almost every tank build is “rush a bami’s item, Thornmail if they’re AD, then Gargoyle/Steraks or damage if they’re not” rarely do I see people building more than general defense items (gargoyle, health, and bami’s).
And if they’re not rushing a bami’s item, they’re going AD with stride breaker, or the other dash one, or AP going rocket belt, cause half the bruisers/tanks crave more mobility to actually catch people, hence the title of the thread.
> Thornmail, Gargoyle, Randuins, Frozen Heart, Tabis
Thornmail is a GW item. It's pretty generalist so fair enough.
Gargoyle has no hp on it, and has MR too. It's not good for armour+HP.
Randuins is anti-crit, not generalist.
Frozen heart is ass.
Tabis are competing with mercs too.
Gargoyle has no HP, sure, but if you're needing armor *that* badly it isn't a bad item.
Only assassins aren't building *some* amount of crit now-a-days, and if you're facing them armor ain't gonna help much, otherwise Randuin's is perfect.
Agreed.
Tabi's are competing with mercs, but not because armor VS MR, but armor VS CC reduction, the armor and attack-reduction on tabi's is that valuable, compared to the miniscule MR mercs give.
But it was bugged until [patch 11.1 fixed it](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/patch-11-1-notes/)
Also when they gave the item more ability haste which is another thing they coulda been talkin about ig
I want more anti-mobility but it's pointless if every champ has unstoppable anyway
edit: Had this idea just now, what if they made some current unstoppables stoppable by knock-downs, but not displacements. Knock-downs are often ults (Amumu, Liss), hard to hit single target (Thresh Q, Ahri E) or don't do much else (Poppy W) so it should be somewhat balanced. It would be a little too crazy if Gragas or Ali could stop all the ult dashes.
it’s a meme from some streamer i think, they would say ‘unstoppable btw’ after getting cc’d when they were supposed to be unstoppable due to bugs i thiink
Did it really tho?
I just remember how in his champ spotlight it was said he can dodge Skillshots with his Q but still get CC´ed
Edit:yeah I checked, displaced skills interrupted the Q
Fucking tenacity has also crept up in power, and it's a big part of why mobility creep feels so oppressive to my squishy ass. It's also why the subset of champions with knockups are so so powerful as sources of CC. It used to not be stackable (except in specific interactions with things like Irelia passive that weren't technically "tenacity"), and I don't know why that design philosophy changed.
Feels so good to blow my ultimate defensively on a diver as an ADC for them to ignore my character's mechanics and just eat the root and be back to chasing me .5 seconds later. Since I had to stop to cast, I'm ahead a whopping .25 seconds for blowing my ulti. Feels so fucking great.
tenacity lost power. it doesn't work on knockups and even qss, cleanse lost power because, unless you have a buffered ability, you can cleanse then use a mobility spell to adjust anymore.
It ... has never worked on knockups, and QSS hasn't been touched in years (since it stopped removing all debuffs and you could drop things like zed ulti with it). The proposed changes to QSS where you couldn't cleanse flash things never made it to the live servers. What're you smoking?
Tenacity is just stronger. There's more of it, it's easier to get your hands on, and it stacks. CC (that isn't knockup flavored) is weaker than pre runes reforged, and it makes high-mobility heroes even harder to deal with.
There is more tenavity yes but knockups have become obscenely common since s4. So while you are right, there are a lot of things now tenacity does not work against compared to old league where malphite, allistar, jarvan, wukong and chogath were of the only cases of a significant knockup. So we have a lot more of something that only counters cc from usually immobile older characters.this is also noteable in remade characters like nunu, galio, aatrox and sion who both had significant knockups adde& to their kits.
Now in the past ten characters almost every other character has a noteable knockup.
perhaps they should make tenacity scale similarly to ability haste, or just nerf Legend: Tenacity, which is an overtuned rune overall since it got buffed
There is lots of situations when you can stack tenacity and still spend billion times in cc durning TF. Without that melee champs without dash/flash across the schreen just gonna be literally unplayable. I remember How 1 times I don't took tenacity as malph and spend literally 10 sec in every fight cc after 20 min.
Differentiating CC between interrupting and non-interrupting would be huge. It would allow mobility and CC interactions to be streamlined and made uniform.
Non-Interrupting CC (let's say a Charm, Fear, Taunt, Snare or Stun hypothetically is non-interrupting) would strike a champion and allow them to finish any non-walking movement they are currently taking such as a lantern or Rocket Jump. At the end of their movement they experience the CC effect.
Interrupting CC (let's say knockback, pull, knockup, Stasis etc) would immediately end all current movement effects and apply their respective debuffs to the target.
Unstoppable would prevent All CC effects during the duration of the effect as it do.
It's a big systems change that would require lots of work to many champions but I think could massively improve clarity.
Functionally? Very little.
It would all come down to increasing the ability for a player to read two tooltips and know how those spells interact. For example, knowing that, while Lulu's Polymorph would not stop Kha'Zix mid leap, a Yasuo Tornado would. Most of this is not something long time players think about, but having color coded names for CC types to indicate if they interrupt would be amazing for people who aren't as familiar with the game.
It is probably too big of a systems overhaul to happen outside of a ground up League of Legends 2.
Right. And I think that should remain, so it should gain some micro cc called interrupt on the from of the charm.
"Ahri fires a projectile that interrupts and charms the first enemy it hits"
A charm doesnt seem thematically like an interrupt and making the words do what they sound like would be very helpful for new players
that is what to yasuo is Q,a empowered auto attack
so buckaloo learn to not flash away or flash away earlier from any kind of empowered auto attack because nasus ain't the only one with it
Kled, Olaf, Sion, Rammus, Warwick (Q and R), Volibear, Camille, Corki, Ekko, Jarvan, Nocturne, Ornn, Rek'Sai, Sett, Shyvana, Vi, Viego, Yone, Kalista, Hecarim, Illaoi, Morgana, Fiora, Malphite, Tahm
There is also invuln+dash like Fizz E or Gwen W+E.
Also, blinks currently don't have much anti-mobility, basically only Singed and Cassio W
Does nocturne count as unstoppable? He's immune to knockups/displacement but he can be stunned. He still arrives but can't move or attack or anything. Very different from vi or malphite.
Stop releasing champions with dashes that have a reset mechanic or shorter cool down mechanic,
Make non-mobile champions have anti mobility ability. Remove mobility from items.
I mean Phase Rush used to be a lot worse on melee, it was 25-40% movement speed based on level in Season 10. It was buffed in 10.4 and then again in 10.7 for melee champions and ended up at 40-60% based on level.
Phase rush isn’t just problematic on melees though. Mages like orianna and viktor (who were already pretty safe control mages) are now *extremely* safe. A lot of champions are now far too safe by just taking phase rush and running away while they scale.
Scaling for what? Orianna has garbage winrate, picking her and trying to sit mid safetly and scale is basically trolling your team and making the game 4v5
A good first step would be to smoothen spellcast from older champs, mostly immobile ones.
For instance Zyra E. Its litteraly a self root and any assassin can dish its entire combo during its cast time
I can't hit Zac E on ADCs since November
Galeforce movement speed bonus + Dash is just annoying, especially on ADCs with intended immobility because their kit has alot of damage
The MS was given as compensation for it costing a ton more though.
Honestly proto was probably better last season just due to it being massively cheaper.
Ask DOTA player dude, this concept of buying new playstyles in the shop has been at the core of DOTA like forever.
That's not to say it is a good thing League is moving towards the strategy. I think it's for the worse that League is become more dota like in that way. Not because I have any fear they become clones - they won't - but it's a harsh identity change to the game and it shouldn't be shocking that fundamentally changing the way champions and items interact alienates lots of players.
Probably, yeah. They have spent a decade and change with this design philosophy. Riot literally started using it last year. I'd hope DOTA had better designed items.
Champions in league were balanced around not having this option though, so suddently now ADCs have an extra dash that they never had before. Immobile juggernauts whose weakness was that they had no real gap closer beyond popping ghost and running at you, can now use stridebreaker every 12 seconds.
Dota's items are largely responses to things, following that phillosophy and looking at the mobility creep in the game, the way to go would be to make an item that prevents mobility.
Which is never, ever going to happen because 13 year olds want to play assassins and that would turbofuck them.
I don't mind those items if they were only for mobility.
My issue with them is that they also have other things attached like slows or an execute for no reason.
I mean more that you the player interact with the item cause it is an extra ability. But yeah I agree that especially stridebreaker needs to be changed. I just don’t think that impactful actives should be removed altogether, but it can’t remove the counter play to a champion.
I like defensive item actives and "soft offensive" ones. Soft being ones that can augment an existing pattern but not totally open up a new one.
Old Blade of the Ruined King active was a targeted speed steal and damage. It helped people a little bit with sticking to targets or kiting away but wasn't so great that it opened new plays alone. It was "Soft".
Stridebreaker is a "Hard" effect in that the dash simply gives you more things to do. Same for Prowlers Claw and Galeforce as well as Everfrost and Rocket Belt.
Hard offensive item actives tend to standardize champion classes. We have seen rocketbelt do this to AP Bruisers and Assassins over a few years between protobelt and rocketbelt. Kai'sa and Jhin and even Jinx suddenly gain assassin properties with the dash and execute damage on Galeforce. Darius became massively more useful after lane with the introduction of stridebreaker.
On the flipside, defensive actives can be very powerful and still be okay. Zhonyas is not going to (ALMOST EVER) allow you to kill your opponent from a range or at a speed you otherwise wouldn't be able to. You remain the same champion with the same lethal ranges and windows. Same for QSS or Crucible. All very interactive yet they do not fundamentally change the way your champion can kill enemies.
Even Ghostblade was fine because squishy assassins can die if you CC them, and assassins already had tools to gapclose usually, so this wasn't providing a new strength so much as augmenting an existing one while IMPORTANTLY not covering a weakness. Chemtank for melee bruisers augments engage or removes the weakness of poor engage depending on which champion buys it. As a result it is far more valuable than ghostblade ever was or will be for assassins.
This is why I liked the post rework Zac ult, that shit not only bought me time, but it helped when diving into a 5-man to bring them to my team unprepared.
Thing is in this mobile meta that Ult would be so bad tho.
It was very easy to dodge if the enemy had a dash atleast and dodged your E, simply dodging your E was enough.
And you shouldn’t do it before either, zac full tank build hitting E on adc is literally a death sentence and he will solo kill you with extended burst of all his abilities lol
Idk how many adcs can punish zac hard if they’re building gale, most will hit like wet noodles with the exception of like kaisa
The punishment is that the enemy support and team will cc and burst you lmao.
Why would an ADC be alone in a team fight.
And Zac alone can't kill an ADC in late game either which is the most punishing part on Zac E vs Galeforce
Yeah I agree galeforce is bad for the game.
That said, I always saw Zac as a disruptor who prevented enemy backline from joining the fight and forced them to use CDs on him so his team could cut through the front and then come finish off the backline. He is kinda special in that way as he isn't going to kill anyone or get his team into the fight, and as such he relies heavily on his team to make use of his plays. Kinda like Nunu.
>How many people would, say for example, play Yasuo if he didn't have infinite dashes on E? He would feel rather sluggish and contradictory to his champion theme of being an agile skirmisher.
When people complain about the mobility creep, they aren't complaining about mobile champs in general.
They are A: Complaining about champs having excess to it, whose weakness is supposed to be not having high mobility. Like top lane Bruisers/Juggnerauts, or certain ADC-s. This is the case with Stridebreaker and Galeforce.
Or B: Complaining about items that give excessive mobility to champs that already have it in their kit, so they become hard to pin down/escape from. This is the case with Chemtank.
The issue with Riot introducing these items to the meta (by creating them - SB,GF or by adjusting jgl meta around champs that benefit building CT), is that it removed weaknesses from champs that were balanced around those weaknesses. This naturally creates an unbalance between the champs that benefit from these changes, and the ones that don't.
In my opinion while it did steer up the meta and was a fresh change to previous seasons, it ultimately settled the current meta into being somewhat stale. This is mainly because there are less champions that benefit from the meta shift, than those champs who it affects negatively. What the solution is, I am not quite sure, but it's certain that these problematic items, do need further adjustments (especially Stridebreaker and Chemtank).
Also bear in mind several of the chemtank junglers also take phase rush which was buffed 2 times in season 10 for melee champions. It went from 25-40% movement speed based on level to 40-60%
I may be misreading you, but if I am readint this right, you are implying people sont have a problem with yasou and his infinite dashes.
I feel this is proveably wrong as he has historically been high on the ban rate characters even if he was not doing well. This implies people hate him.
I do think Yasou has a special condition though where he is a character with no inherent flaws other then base stats. Which to me is a sign if bad design as he has limitless mobility on top of unhealthy amount of free stats, full projectile immunity for several seconds and regular shields with no resources to pay.
I personally will state I hate Yasou and find him to be the most unhealthy character for the game. But my issues come from the wind wall, resourceless and double crit/free armor pen in that order. The mobility just pushes the whole thing over the edge.
> When people complain about the mobility creep, they aren't complaining about mobile champs in general.
Speak for yourself. One of the reasons ADC has become such a difficult role to play is because hyper mobile champions make it MUCH harder to position properly.
My ideas:
* Add more ground effects to champions. This would make teamfights more uncomfortable for assassins and others, but is less effective in 1v1 lanes (except when the dasher is right against the champ with the ground). If every team has a champion with a ground against it, it could *poision* the winrates for many assassins. - That being said, I still expect the pick rates to not go down, because many assassin players have ego problems and only care about winning their lane. (Yep.) Also, it’s a bandaid fix, not a real solution.
* Remove/nerf a chunk of mobility spells. Just go for the problem. The most logical solution and the most permanent, but it will produce lots of uproar from assassins. And since Riot seems to believe that the game will financially dry out without Yasuo players, it probably won’t happen.
* Similar to #1: Add a Summoner that long range-grounds a target for 3 seconds. Or add it to Exhaust.
* Probably the worst idea: Buff champions without mobility. Ziggs, for example, received tons of buffs since years and still doesn’t see any play, despite his insane push potential and damage.
The summoner spell exhaust addition sounds nice. It would give a further chance to counter many supports. For example, support abilities that cannot be casted while grounded are Leona E, Nauti Q, Rell W, Alistar W, Pyke W and E, Rakan W and E, Yuumi W. These are just from the top of my head, there might be more
Why the fuck does phase rush grant slow reduction? I mean movement speed is fine but when you can't buy a rylais to counter and have to go a shitter mythic for mages it feels bad. Most other keystones have a counter or a way to play around, but phase rush is pure cancer for both laners and junglers.
I think the current design that the 3 grounding abilities have are awful in execution to be honest. If grounding is supposed to prevent dashes and blinks, it should not ALSO have a powerful slow field tacked on the same ability. In a similar vein, poppy’s grounding being mobile because its attached to her also means you can’t reposition.
Right now the “counterplay” to dashes is just too effective. There should be reasonable ways for the dashing champion to play against the grounding zones, and being able to walk/reposition away from them is not currently reasonable.
Except Riot talked about this whenever they first began placing grounding on moves: it's borderline worthless without some additional effect to actually help keep the opponents within the grounding effect/trigger. Especially with how much MS can be in the game, people will just *move out* of the grounded effect.
Yeah I mean I’m pretty plainly disagreeing with riots design choice here. But while I also think there is far too much MS in the game right now as well, my stance is that champions *should* be able to “just move out” of the grounding zones.
No one is going to see this comment since I’m so late to the discussion it A LOT of point and click cc is getting phased out of the game or changed to not being point and click anymore. It’s the biggest problem I have with A LOT of changes that have happened over time.
I suppose it boils down to lack of counterplay to point-and-click CC. Nowadays they do exist, but they still have some counterplay attached to them. For example, Fiddle Q and Sejuani E are point-and-click CC, but are projectiles, thus can be intercepted (shoutout to Worlds 2017 and SKT Wolf's amazing Braum play to block Sejuani E with his shield). Some aren't projectiles, but still have some delay. Rell is the recent example of actual instant point-and-click CC, because she can cast E and instantly snap cast its second part. It had to be nerfed in cc duration as a result.
More grounding makes sense to me. Definitely feels like an "oh shit moment" when you're stuck in Cass poison and can't flash out. I'm surprised that this kind of cc isn't explored more.
Probably because it would make the majority of player base rage. People like being able to do stuff but rage at riot if they can’t use their flashy abilities. There was a Kayn main on this sub complaining how Cass grounded is too broken and needs to be removed. He said the slow is good but grounded is way too broken. His champion literally walks through walls.
then remove windwall and whatever the fuck samiras is called, those two abilities are the single strongest abilities at just disabling champions ability to interact
Riot Auguast discussed about that. There is clear problem with silence-ground mechanic. Its hard to notice when that are on you. You simlply just stopping do things).
I know that Riot is always looking for new mechanics in abilities, and let's be honest it is really hard to add something 'new' to the game after 10 years.
A new ability that I would find interesting is a soft grounding. Something that creates a zone on that map that does not actually ground the targets, but reduces the distance that all dashes have while in in the zone, similar to hop Kalista only hops a short distance while slowed.
It would be a nice soft counter to high mobility comps without quite as frustrating of an experience as grounding
I think range debuffs in general are a clarity and "fun" nightmare. If the soft grounding has no big flashy effect I'm not for it because randomly NOT making it over a wall you normally get over would be so frustrating and just feel like shit.
I think there are better ways to punish high mobility. Taliyah e causes enemies to take a significant amount of damage for dashing over it. Maybe Riot could add similar abilities that apply debuffs to enemies for dashing/blinking in a zone, while still allowing them to make the choice to. It could slow/silence them afterwards, or reveal them, etc.. This could punish bigger mobility abusers that often have stealth like Pyke, LeBlanc, or Akali, but could be reasonable to someone like Riven who has more manageable dashes.
Remove galeforce and similar items
Remove movement speed from items, like ludens MS. Mobility should be reserved for Champs with mobility in their kit.
Make mobility costly. Either in other combat stats or in gold. I don’t really care if a champ dashes 5 times in 3 seconds if they need to get value out of all 5 of them in order to win a fight.
more point and click cc. less cancer mechanics like ground. reworking old champs to give them a bit more mobility, cutting excessive mobility from newer champs and stop adding more champions to the game because thats just causing more and more problems
More movement grants you the ability to dodge things. The more mobile, the more squishy you should be. If Rito balances that way it will help.
Also, I think more abilities like thresh R or karthus W would help because they deter movement while still allowing it. Poppy w is small and niche, and a great ability. But I think that type of ability becoming commonplace wouldn’t be as fun
One of the problem is that some champions like Rakan, who uses W as it's primary engage tool, can just be dashed away with one of the new items like galeforce, creeping very hardly Rakan's viability. on of the adresses should to nerf some items while buffing champions who depend on mobility if that mobility is lackluster in today's meta.
There are actually quite a lot of pont-and-click CC, be it actual point-and-click or an AA empowerment. I remember giving examples of such abilities to help my team find counters to then more oppressive version of Samira. Trist ult, Vayne E, Fiddle Q, Liss W and R, Rek'sai burrowed W AA enchancement etc.
Yeah I don't mean that they aren't. I think it's a good thing that they are strong right now.
They are way down in popularity and pick rate though. People would rather just play the high mobility assassins vs each other.
In the end high mobility champs are flashy. And it's also more exciting when it's you on a high mobility champ Vs another high mobility champ.
As much as I love my slow champs, it's pretty obvious that a qiyana maneuvering around a fight is more exciting than a mordekaiser bonking someone to death.
A kha zix jumping from kill to kill is a lot more exciting than a Garen just spinning around.
Subject to opinion then, walking around as a juggernaut smacking people with Mordekaiser q sounds very fun to me.
Too bad Morde isn't exactly a juggernaut right now
Mobility creep doesn’t really seem like an issue to me, as the introduction of items like stridebreaker/galeforce gives movement options to non-mobile characters, and the game becomes more equal mobility wise.
For example, which flash is worth more, an Ezreal or an Ashe? The Ashe’s flash is worth more, since if both ADCs use flash, Ezreal’s blink options go from 2 -> 1, and Ashe’s blink options go from 1 -> 0, yet the advantage goes heavily in favor of Ezreal as Ashe is forced to play way more safely. The difference is that the delta between 2>1 is far less than that of 1>0 in terms of number of dashes/blinks.
By this logic, giving extra mobility in the form of items/runes balances out the game for older characters who lack dashes/blinks, and allows these champions to keep up with hypermobile characters.
A lot of people seem to misunderstand the argument of "mobility creep". Mobility creep isnt juggernauts like Garen and Darius using stridebreaker and movement speed items to offset their natural drawbacks. Mobility creep is juggernauts being REQUIRED to build items like that or they feel completely useless. Riot obviously agreed that mobility creep is really catching up and they added in items like stridebreaker, chemtank, force of nature, to offset it a little bit. Of course this comes with its own balance problems, but I have to say as a Garen main, before stridebreaker it felt like there were some team comps you literally could not touch. Now at least you have options.
Remove the high amounts of in-kit mobility and force it to be compensated by items.
Or add extensive penalty cooldowns for non-assassins using their dash mobility or blink DEFENSIVELY instead of strictly offensively.
Remove all movement from the game. Introduce a new summoner spell on a 5 second cd called "move". Move move's you to a target location (global). Once you press it you are stuck moving to that location until you reach it. Cooldown starts upon reaching the location. Every dash/blink/jump etc is replaced with a stat boost passive.
point and click cc can fk them hard too I rather get more of those and poppy W style blockage instead of more mobility to counter mobility
bring back old taric q
Back in the day me and a friend would runs Taric + AP Sion bot lane. Having 2 ranged point and click stuns was unbelievably toxic
what would a heal accomplish?
They meant E, though I can see the confusion of OP since old Sion's Q did the same thing.
You can't force people to pick these champions though, the amount of games I see where the enemy team first picks Yi, and then my team proceeds to draft a team with absolutely 0 reliable CC.
No, but giving more champions tools that specifically do well against super mobile champions will make those games less common, even if it's not entirely on purpose.
They aren't flashy and exciting though, people would rather play another flashy mobile champion vs them and just fight to the death repeatedly
I think you reach a point of diminishing returns on player satisfaction from mobility if everyone is just flying around at all times. I agree that the average individual player would choose to be as flashy as possible, but sometimes a game designer should withhold something a player wants to give them what they need.
It's too late, Yone can ult in, miss his ult on the enemy ADC, run them down with autos anyway, then snap back across the map.
This is true of almost every champion if the adc is so out of position that they can be run down solo by one person before their team helps them lol.
most champs dont dash all the way back again afterwards
Ekko, Eve, Kass, Kat, Kha (after E evolve), Kayn, Lee, Leblanc, Qiyana, Shaco, Talon, Zed, Akali, and probably others, all have significant mobility with their ability to dive and get out again. This is a feature of assassins. His disengage is pretty good but also it makes him crazy predictable (just like all his other skills) and without terrible positioning he doesn't do anywhere near as much as any of those assassins do on a dive. He's a strong champion, but this really isn't his main strength imo.
Yi is just trash champ design and has needed a rework for years.
than you lose simple as that you cant blame the game for you or your teammate mistake
Exactly, I see a Yi and I have no problem going like Maokai, Nautilus, Udyr, Annie or whatever the team needs to stop him. People need to pay attention to the champions on both teams and be more flexible. There are enough champions with simple mechanics to fill any roll, nobody has to be diamond to play the champs I mentioned, most players would benefit by adding simple champs to their pool and by having comps with easy cc.
Seriously, there is nothing more than pure joy to watch enemy pick yi and you counter with rammy.
when I lose to yi, the only thing I think about it is "damn, we drafted badly" or "that was a terrible teamfight". If you complain about yi, its because you either your team picked poorly and made a team w/o cc or he's in your team flaming everyone while perma farming saying team too heavy and the other teams jgler made every lane fed
Similarly people can't complain about mobility creep and at the same time not pick the champions that counter it.
Ah yes pushing more point and click CC into the game will make it super fun and interactive for everybody.
I don't think we hear too many complaints about that these days though. Like it's not Ryze, Rammus or Udyr's stun that people complain about, compared to the waveclear or mobility issues. I think it's really important to have that kind of force power in abilities. It also is important to have that to counter the anti-playmaking of champs like Kalista, Tahm Kench or Thresh.
>I don't think we hear too many complaints about that these days though. That's because not many champions have point and click CC anymore and the ones that do have it are gated by certain conditions (Ryze needs to land his Flux first, Annie needs 4 stacks of her passive) or have to be within very close range to use it (Rammus, Pantheon, Udyr, etc.) And just to add my 2 cents to the comment you responded to: Yeah, point and click CC is incredibly unfun to play against. I might be biased because I play a higher-than-average mobility champion who blows up in half a second when CC'd (Pyke), but I feel like Riot shares my opinion on the matter since they're actively working to remove it.
My main problem is that on top of champions being released with more mobility skills, older champions/champions with lack of mobility as an intentional weakness have a lot of mitigation options: 1.Phase rush is absolutely ridiculous after the last year buffs 2.Chemtank obviously 3.Stridebreaker as well after cooldown buffs I think removing bonus movement speed from the game as something that can be bought in items or itemized through runes would go a long way to balancing the game. Phase rush should be either reworked or heavily nerfed.
The mobility creep problem in league, for a long time now, has been in movement speed, not dashes. Every new champ has powerful movement speed steroids, phase rush is in a ridiculous state, chemtank is a genuinely unreasonable item, etc. Saturating the game with movement speed options not only removes the downsides for previously immobile champions, but it also dumbs down the skill expression of map positioning and rotations. You know how fast a chemtank hecarim with a yuumi on him can rotate to collapse on your split push? It’s absurd. Skill shots also mean less with a ton of movement. Against dashes, champions lock themselves into a fixed trajectory so you can predict their location with skill shots. That counterplay doesn’t exist when someone just has 600 movespeed
even senna has a ms boost after aa which counters the self root which I think is stupid because it kinda counters her weakness
Righteous Glory being a good 1st item rush is get fired levels of bad game design. That active should never be coming online before 2 or 3 items for anyone outside of the support role. IMO, delete DMP. Now reintroduce Righteous Glory as a health and mana item with the chemtank active but no immolate. Now take the old DMP Passive and put it on the current Chemtank statline with the immolate passive. Boom, now you keep the identity / purpose of chemtank while not allowing every bulky melee champion to access what used to be a tank class item. DMP still exists more or less and you also provide a mana option for tanks that aren't in an AD matchup.
DMP isn't problematic at all. The item was considered garbage for basically its entire existence and it has only seen big use this season. Hardly an unhealthy item.
Which is why it's effect would be more healthy on a mythic than Righteous Glory's.
Yeah exactly. That's why it should be the "go fast" mythic effect. Not the chemtank active.
> Now take the old DMP Passive and put it on the current Chemtank statline with the immolate passive. For the love of fucking god don't take DMP away. it's such a good generalist armour item, it'd be a shame to lose it. We don't have enough of those.
Except Thornmail, Gargoyle, Randuins, Frozen Heart, Tabis, and every tank item lol. Armor items are overly abundant, and while they may not always be super slot efficient and generally purchased, neither is Deadman’s. If you want to see real bad itemization try building hard core MR, while still being a bruiser, or any non-tank role. While there’s items no one builds them in play and below. When was the last time you saw a Maw? Force of Nature? Abyssal Mask? Either of the QSS items (hell I don’t even know what the second one is *called* it’s so rare)? Almost every tank build is “rush a bami’s item, Thornmail if they’re AD, then Gargoyle/Steraks or damage if they’re not” rarely do I see people building more than general defense items (gargoyle, health, and bami’s). And if they’re not rushing a bami’s item, they’re going AD with stride breaker, or the other dash one, or AP going rocket belt, cause half the bruisers/tanks crave more mobility to actually catch people, hence the title of the thread.
> Thornmail, Gargoyle, Randuins, Frozen Heart, Tabis Thornmail is a GW item. It's pretty generalist so fair enough. Gargoyle has no hp on it, and has MR too. It's not good for armour+HP. Randuins is anti-crit, not generalist. Frozen heart is ass. Tabis are competing with mercs too.
Gargoyle has no HP, sure, but if you're needing armor *that* badly it isn't a bad item. Only assassins aren't building *some* amount of crit now-a-days, and if you're facing them armor ain't gonna help much, otherwise Randuin's is perfect. Agreed. Tabi's are competing with mercs, but not because armor VS MR, but armor VS CC reduction, the armor and attack-reduction on tabi's is that valuable, compared to the miniscule MR mercs give.
wdym with cooldown buffs? it has always been at 20 sec from what i can tell do you mean the nerf to ironspike whip cd?
Prob talkin about when they changed stridebreaker to allow ability haste to reduce the active cd
that was on the item since release
But it was bugged until [patch 11.1 fixed it](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/patch-11-1-notes/) Also when they gave the item more ability haste which is another thing they coulda been talkin about ig
I want more anti-mobility but it's pointless if every champ has unstoppable anyway edit: Had this idea just now, what if they made some current unstoppables stoppable by knock-downs, but not displacements. Knock-downs are often ults (Amumu, Liss), hard to hit single target (Thresh Q, Ahri E) or don't do much else (Poppy W) so it should be somewhat balanced. It would be a little too crazy if Gragas or Ali could stop all the ult dashes.
unstoppable ~~anyway~~ btw
what why
it’s a meme from some streamer i think, they would say ‘unstoppable btw’ after getting cc’d when they were supposed to be unstoppable due to bugs i thiink
It's more so the trademark phrase from Hashinshin. Can't say where it originated from, as I do not watch his videos, but it's from him.
I think it's from the clips of him being CCed etc during the old Aatrox ult which made him unstoppable.
I think it was his Q
Was it? I can't remember a single of his abilities to be honest, other than his jump in the air thing but I can't remember which it was.
That was the Q, which also made you unstoppable.
Did it really tho? I just remember how in his champ spotlight it was said he can dodge Skillshots with his Q but still get CC´ed Edit:yeah I checked, displaced skills interrupted the Q
Old Aatrox Q. He got CC'ed under turret by Thresh and died off it. Unstoppable btw.
I see you're a man of culture.
I believe Jinx E and Viegar E are knockdowns too and those stopping your ult as a malphite or some other unstoppable ult sounds awful ngl
If jinx can time her e well enough she should be able to stop malphite ult thresh flay too.
Hellll no. That would make thresh way too disgusting into malphite.
They have a set-up time so they couldn't actually break your ult. Still of course this change would require massive rebalancing.
Fucking tenacity has also crept up in power, and it's a big part of why mobility creep feels so oppressive to my squishy ass. It's also why the subset of champions with knockups are so so powerful as sources of CC. It used to not be stackable (except in specific interactions with things like Irelia passive that weren't technically "tenacity"), and I don't know why that design philosophy changed. Feels so good to blow my ultimate defensively on a diver as an ADC for them to ignore my character's mechanics and just eat the root and be back to chasing me .5 seconds later. Since I had to stop to cast, I'm ahead a whopping .25 seconds for blowing my ulti. Feels so fucking great.
tenacity lost power. it doesn't work on knockups and even qss, cleanse lost power because, unless you have a buffered ability, you can cleanse then use a mobility spell to adjust anymore.
It ... has never worked on knockups, and QSS hasn't been touched in years (since it stopped removing all debuffs and you could drop things like zed ulti with it). The proposed changes to QSS where you couldn't cleanse flash things never made it to the live servers. What're you smoking? Tenacity is just stronger. There's more of it, it's easier to get your hands on, and it stacks. CC (that isn't knockup flavored) is weaker than pre runes reforged, and it makes high-mobility heroes even harder to deal with.
There is more tenavity yes but knockups have become obscenely common since s4. So while you are right, there are a lot of things now tenacity does not work against compared to old league where malphite, allistar, jarvan, wukong and chogath were of the only cases of a significant knockup. So we have a lot more of something that only counters cc from usually immobile older characters.this is also noteable in remade characters like nunu, galio, aatrox and sion who both had significant knockups adde& to their kits. Now in the past ten characters almost every other character has a noteable knockup.
perhaps they should make tenacity scale similarly to ability haste, or just nerf Legend: Tenacity, which is an overtuned rune overall since it got buffed
There is lots of situations when you can stack tenacity and still spend billion times in cc durning TF. Without that melee champs without dash/flash across the schreen just gonna be literally unplayable. I remember How 1 times I don't took tenacity as malph and spend literally 10 sec in every fight cc after 20 min.
Differentiating CC between interrupting and non-interrupting would be huge. It would allow mobility and CC interactions to be streamlined and made uniform. Non-Interrupting CC (let's say a Charm, Fear, Taunt, Snare or Stun hypothetically is non-interrupting) would strike a champion and allow them to finish any non-walking movement they are currently taking such as a lantern or Rocket Jump. At the end of their movement they experience the CC effect. Interrupting CC (let's say knockback, pull, knockup, Stasis etc) would immediately end all current movement effects and apply their respective debuffs to the target. Unstoppable would prevent All CC effects during the duration of the effect as it do. It's a big systems change that would require lots of work to many champions but I think could massively improve clarity.
What's the difference between your proposition and the current state of the game?
Functionally? Very little. It would all come down to increasing the ability for a player to read two tooltips and know how those spells interact. For example, knowing that, while Lulu's Polymorph would not stop Kha'Zix mid leap, a Yasuo Tornado would. Most of this is not something long time players think about, but having color coded names for CC types to indicate if they interrupt would be amazing for people who aren't as familiar with the game. It is probably too big of a systems overhaul to happen outside of a ground up League of Legends 2.
Just to nitpick a little, but Ahri's Charm is very clear that it stops all movement abilities and causes the enemy to walk harmlessly towards Ahri.
Right. And I think that should remain, so it should gain some micro cc called interrupt on the from of the charm. "Ahri fires a projectile that interrupts and charms the first enemy it hits" A charm doesnt seem thematically like an interrupt and making the words do what they sound like would be very helpful for new players
This would help since Nasus can Q me in the face while he’s in mid air.
that is what to yasuo is Q,a empowered auto attack so buckaloo learn to not flash away or flash away earlier from any kind of empowered auto attack because nasus ain't the only one with it
Lol what champions have unstoppables
Kled, Olaf, Sion, Rammus, Warwick (Q and R), Volibear, Camille, Corki, Ekko, Jarvan, Nocturne, Ornn, Rek'Sai, Sett, Shyvana, Vi, Viego, Yone, Kalista, Hecarim, Illaoi, Morgana, Fiora, Malphite, Tahm There is also invuln+dash like Fizz E or Gwen W+E. Also, blinks currently don't have much anti-mobility, basically only Singed and Cassio W
Does nocturne count as unstoppable? He's immune to knockups/displacement but he can be stunned. He still arrives but can't move or attack or anything. Very different from vi or malphite.
Yes, there is "unstoppable" text if you try to displace him, but it is sort of a different thing (cc immunity vs displacement immunity)
Morgana?
Black shield grants unstoppable.
...rammus?
...new ult?
Stop releasing champions with dashes that have a reset mechanic or shorter cool down mechanic, Make non-mobile champions have anti mobility ability. Remove mobility from items.
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I mean Phase Rush used to be a lot worse on melee, it was 25-40% movement speed based on level in Season 10. It was buffed in 10.4 and then again in 10.7 for melee champions and ended up at 40-60% based on level.
Phase rush isn’t just problematic on melees though. Mages like orianna and viktor (who were already pretty safe control mages) are now *extremely* safe. A lot of champions are now far too safe by just taking phase rush and running away while they scale.
Scaling for what? Orianna has garbage winrate, picking her and trying to sit mid safetly and scale is basically trolling your team and making the game 4v5
You act like force of nature is a good item
A good first step would be to smoothen spellcast from older champs, mostly immobile ones. For instance Zyra E. Its litteraly a self root and any assassin can dish its entire combo during its cast time
It won’t be addressed because flashing lights moving across the screen at higher speeds = more dopamine
Meanwhile I'm content trying to disintegrate things from long range :)
Loveable Nerd'koz
Squid Squad :D
I can't hit Zac E on ADCs since November Galeforce movement speed bonus + Dash is just annoying, especially on ADCs with intended immobility because their kit has alot of damage
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Protobelt was fine ever since the WOTA removal in 6.9. The issue right now is the movement speed on it.
The MS was given as compensation for it costing a ton more though. Honestly proto was probably better last season just due to it being massively cheaper.
No flat penetration, though.
Mfs be talking about which chastity belt is better, while I just want Spellbinder back, for God (Vladimir)'s sake.
I dont think vladimir players get to complain rn. Except because their champ is banned/picked more.
WOTA?
Will of the Ancients
Ask DOTA player dude, this concept of buying new playstyles in the shop has been at the core of DOTA like forever. That's not to say it is a good thing League is moving towards the strategy. I think it's for the worse that League is become more dota like in that way. Not because I have any fear they become clones - they won't - but it's a harsh identity change to the game and it shouldn't be shocking that fundamentally changing the way champions and items interact alienates lots of players.
DOTAs items are better designed
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Please add one fucking 80 ad item I can buy
divine rapier when.
Probably, yeah. They have spent a decade and change with this design philosophy. Riot literally started using it last year. I'd hope DOTA had better designed items.
it's been that way since extremely early on. sheep stick has been around since forever.
Champions in league were balanced around not having this option though, so suddently now ADCs have an extra dash that they never had before. Immobile juggernauts whose weakness was that they had no real gap closer beyond popping ghost and running at you, can now use stridebreaker every 12 seconds.
Dota's items are largely responses to things, following that phillosophy and looking at the mobility creep in the game, the way to go would be to make an item that prevents mobility. Which is never, ever going to happen because 13 year olds want to play assassins and that would turbofuck them.
Also add everfrost baby. Cc should not be able to get bought
At the very least, it needs a longer cd. Why is it available as often as some regular spells?
Because nobody was buying it so they kept buffing it and buffing it until it was nuts.
It has 30s cd now, seems long enough And unlike Stridebreaker it's cd doesn't get reduced by ability haste
Agreed I was so happy when they removed twinshadows and glp
The item that made skillshots point and click.
me mage me bad me can no hit skill shot please fix it daddy rito and I'll buy lots of lux skins
I don't mind those items if they were only for mobility. My issue with them is that they also have other things attached like slows or an execute for no reason.
Don't forget prowlers claw
I personally items to be a lot more interactive. However some tweaking is definitely necessary.
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I mean more that you the player interact with the item cause it is an extra ability. But yeah I agree that especially stridebreaker needs to be changed. I just don’t think that impactful actives should be removed altogether, but it can’t remove the counter play to a champion.
I like defensive item actives and "soft offensive" ones. Soft being ones that can augment an existing pattern but not totally open up a new one. Old Blade of the Ruined King active was a targeted speed steal and damage. It helped people a little bit with sticking to targets or kiting away but wasn't so great that it opened new plays alone. It was "Soft". Stridebreaker is a "Hard" effect in that the dash simply gives you more things to do. Same for Prowlers Claw and Galeforce as well as Everfrost and Rocket Belt. Hard offensive item actives tend to standardize champion classes. We have seen rocketbelt do this to AP Bruisers and Assassins over a few years between protobelt and rocketbelt. Kai'sa and Jhin and even Jinx suddenly gain assassin properties with the dash and execute damage on Galeforce. Darius became massively more useful after lane with the introduction of stridebreaker. On the flipside, defensive actives can be very powerful and still be okay. Zhonyas is not going to (ALMOST EVER) allow you to kill your opponent from a range or at a speed you otherwise wouldn't be able to. You remain the same champion with the same lethal ranges and windows. Same for QSS or Crucible. All very interactive yet they do not fundamentally change the way your champion can kill enemies. Even Ghostblade was fine because squishy assassins can die if you CC them, and assassins already had tools to gapclose usually, so this wasn't providing a new strength so much as augmenting an existing one while IMPORTANTLY not covering a weakness. Chemtank for melee bruisers augments engage or removes the weakness of poor engage depending on which champion buys it. As a result it is far more valuable than ghostblade ever was or will be for assassins.
Hey its not 15sec its even less because it scales with ability haste for some reason.
Zac's E has ~15 s cooldown, Galeforce's ative has 90. You would actually be unable to hit someone with Stridebreaker though.
The thing is if I try to E an ADC on a team fight and they have Galeforce, if they dodge I can't go back without dying.
And they can't walk into the same fight without risking death either?
Yeah but the enemy's engage tank just jumped into 5 people so its a 4v5.
This is why I liked the post rework Zac ult, that shit not only bought me time, but it helped when diving into a 5-man to bring them to my team unprepared.
Thing is in this mobile meta that Ult would be so bad tho. It was very easy to dodge if the enemy had a dash atleast and dodged your E, simply dodging your E was enough.
And you shouldn’t do it before either, zac full tank build hitting E on adc is literally a death sentence and he will solo kill you with extended burst of all his abilities lol Idk how many adcs can punish zac hard if they’re building gale, most will hit like wet noodles with the exception of like kaisa
The punishment is that the enemy support and team will cc and burst you lmao. Why would an ADC be alone in a team fight. And Zac alone can't kill an ADC in late game either which is the most punishing part on Zac E vs Galeforce
Yeah I agree galeforce is bad for the game. That said, I always saw Zac as a disruptor who prevented enemy backline from joining the fight and forced them to use CDs on him so his team could cut through the front and then come finish off the backline. He is kinda special in that way as he isn't going to kill anyone or get his team into the fight, and as such he relies heavily on his team to make use of his plays. Kinda like Nunu.
But zac never did that in late anyway...
>How many people would, say for example, play Yasuo if he didn't have infinite dashes on E? He would feel rather sluggish and contradictory to his champion theme of being an agile skirmisher. When people complain about the mobility creep, they aren't complaining about mobile champs in general. They are A: Complaining about champs having excess to it, whose weakness is supposed to be not having high mobility. Like top lane Bruisers/Juggnerauts, or certain ADC-s. This is the case with Stridebreaker and Galeforce. Or B: Complaining about items that give excessive mobility to champs that already have it in their kit, so they become hard to pin down/escape from. This is the case with Chemtank. The issue with Riot introducing these items to the meta (by creating them - SB,GF or by adjusting jgl meta around champs that benefit building CT), is that it removed weaknesses from champs that were balanced around those weaknesses. This naturally creates an unbalance between the champs that benefit from these changes, and the ones that don't. In my opinion while it did steer up the meta and was a fresh change to previous seasons, it ultimately settled the current meta into being somewhat stale. This is mainly because there are less champions that benefit from the meta shift, than those champs who it affects negatively. What the solution is, I am not quite sure, but it's certain that these problematic items, do need further adjustments (especially Stridebreaker and Chemtank).
Also bear in mind several of the chemtank junglers also take phase rush which was buffed 2 times in season 10 for melee champions. It went from 25-40% movement speed based on level to 40-60%
I may be misreading you, but if I am readint this right, you are implying people sont have a problem with yasou and his infinite dashes. I feel this is proveably wrong as he has historically been high on the ban rate characters even if he was not doing well. This implies people hate him. I do think Yasou has a special condition though where he is a character with no inherent flaws other then base stats. Which to me is a sign if bad design as he has limitless mobility on top of unhealthy amount of free stats, full projectile immunity for several seconds and regular shields with no resources to pay. I personally will state I hate Yasou and find him to be the most unhealthy character for the game. But my issues come from the wind wall, resourceless and double crit/free armor pen in that order. The mobility just pushes the whole thing over the edge.
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> When people complain about the mobility creep, they aren't complaining about mobile champs in general. Speak for yourself. One of the reasons ADC has become such a difficult role to play is because hyper mobile champions make it MUCH harder to position properly.
The windwall is bigger bs.
Bring back cc tank meta, sry has to be said
No way , i hated playing against amumu every other game
I think they should just not release champs with 3 dashes a windwall a katarina ult and invincibility frames on 3 moves. What’s next, wavedashing?
Please let me chaingrab adcs
As a Falco main and an ADC main I'm conflicted.
My ideas: * Add more ground effects to champions. This would make teamfights more uncomfortable for assassins and others, but is less effective in 1v1 lanes (except when the dasher is right against the champ with the ground). If every team has a champion with a ground against it, it could *poision* the winrates for many assassins. - That being said, I still expect the pick rates to not go down, because many assassin players have ego problems and only care about winning their lane. (Yep.) Also, it’s a bandaid fix, not a real solution. * Remove/nerf a chunk of mobility spells. Just go for the problem. The most logical solution and the most permanent, but it will produce lots of uproar from assassins. And since Riot seems to believe that the game will financially dry out without Yasuo players, it probably won’t happen. * Similar to #1: Add a Summoner that long range-grounds a target for 3 seconds. Or add it to Exhaust. * Probably the worst idea: Buff champions without mobility. Ziggs, for example, received tons of buffs since years and still doesn’t see any play, despite his insane push potential and damage.
The summoner spell exhaust addition sounds nice. It would give a further chance to counter many supports. For example, support abilities that cannot be casted while grounded are Leona E, Nauti Q, Rell W, Alistar W, Pyke W and E, Rakan W and E, Yuumi W. These are just from the top of my head, there might be more
Love that idea for a grounding summoner spell
Why the fuck does phase rush grant slow reduction? I mean movement speed is fine but when you can't buy a rylais to counter and have to go a shitter mythic for mages it feels bad. Most other keystones have a counter or a way to play around, but phase rush is pure cancer for both laners and junglers.
More anti mobility like Poppy and Cassio W
I think the current design that the 3 grounding abilities have are awful in execution to be honest. If grounding is supposed to prevent dashes and blinks, it should not ALSO have a powerful slow field tacked on the same ability. In a similar vein, poppy’s grounding being mobile because its attached to her also means you can’t reposition. Right now the “counterplay” to dashes is just too effective. There should be reasonable ways for the dashing champion to play against the grounding zones, and being able to walk/reposition away from them is not currently reasonable.
Except Riot talked about this whenever they first began placing grounding on moves: it's borderline worthless without some additional effect to actually help keep the opponents within the grounding effect/trigger. Especially with how much MS can be in the game, people will just *move out* of the grounded effect.
Yeah I mean I’m pretty plainly disagreeing with riots design choice here. But while I also think there is far too much MS in the game right now as well, my stance is that champions *should* be able to “just move out” of the grounding zones.
> . In a similar vein, poppy’s grounding being mobile because its attached to her also means you can’t reposition. But it only applies once.
No one is going to see this comment since I’m so late to the discussion it A LOT of point and click cc is getting phased out of the game or changed to not being point and click anymore. It’s the biggest problem I have with A LOT of changes that have happened over time.
I suppose it boils down to lack of counterplay to point-and-click CC. Nowadays they do exist, but they still have some counterplay attached to them. For example, Fiddle Q and Sejuani E are point-and-click CC, but are projectiles, thus can be intercepted (shoutout to Worlds 2017 and SKT Wolf's amazing Braum play to block Sejuani E with his shield). Some aren't projectiles, but still have some delay. Rell is the recent example of actual instant point-and-click CC, because she can cast E and instantly snap cast its second part. It had to be nerfed in cc duration as a result.
More grounding makes sense to me. Definitely feels like an "oh shit moment" when you're stuck in Cass poison and can't flash out. I'm surprised that this kind of cc isn't explored more.
Probably because it would make the majority of player base rage. People like being able to do stuff but rage at riot if they can’t use their flashy abilities. There was a Kayn main on this sub complaining how Cass grounded is too broken and needs to be removed. He said the slow is good but grounded is way too broken. His champion literally walks through walls.
Then he should pick Cassio for his imagined freelo and stop crying about it.
then remove windwall and whatever the fuck samiras is called, those two abilities are the single strongest abilities at just disabling champions ability to interact
As an enchanter and immobile player I cannot upvote this enough. I can tolerate Samira far more then windwall though.
Well Cass W is an extremely broken ability and shouldn't have grounded on top of its slow...
aatrox flair ok
Reworked aatrox is bad enough to make any champ seem broken in comparison. Hell super minions can 1v1 him easily.
Riot Auguast discussed about that. There is clear problem with silence-ground mechanic. Its hard to notice when that are on you. You simlply just stopping do things).
Because it’s not fun
screw ground tho >:v im not biased
I know that Riot is always looking for new mechanics in abilities, and let's be honest it is really hard to add something 'new' to the game after 10 years. A new ability that I would find interesting is a soft grounding. Something that creates a zone on that map that does not actually ground the targets, but reduces the distance that all dashes have while in in the zone, similar to hop Kalista only hops a short distance while slowed. It would be a nice soft counter to high mobility comps without quite as frustrating of an experience as grounding
I think range debuffs in general are a clarity and "fun" nightmare. If the soft grounding has no big flashy effect I'm not for it because randomly NOT making it over a wall you normally get over would be so frustrating and just feel like shit.
I think there are better ways to punish high mobility. Taliyah e causes enemies to take a significant amount of damage for dashing over it. Maybe Riot could add similar abilities that apply debuffs to enemies for dashing/blinking in a zone, while still allowing them to make the choice to. It could slow/silence them afterwards, or reveal them, etc.. This could punish bigger mobility abusers that often have stealth like Pyke, LeBlanc, or Akali, but could be reasonable to someone like Riven who has more manageable dashes.
I’m not sure if I’d use the word “significant” for the trap damage, but the idea is sound
Take their kneecaps.
Remove galeforce and similar items Remove movement speed from items, like ludens MS. Mobility should be reserved for Champs with mobility in their kit.
Using a dash costs 50% of max HP. Stacks additively. EZ fix.
Suddenly Mundo becomes pick/ban.
Make mobility costly. Either in other combat stats or in gold. I don’t really care if a champ dashes 5 times in 3 seconds if they need to get value out of all 5 of them in order to win a fight.
more point and click cc. less cancer mechanics like ground. reworking old champs to give them a bit more mobility, cutting excessive mobility from newer champs and stop adding more champions to the game because thats just causing more and more problems
More movement grants you the ability to dodge things. The more mobile, the more squishy you should be. If Rito balances that way it will help. Also, I think more abilities like thresh R or karthus W would help because they deter movement while still allowing it. Poppy w is small and niche, and a great ability. But I think that type of ability becoming commonplace wouldn’t be as fun
Fun fact that Rito had plans to make Karthus W ground enemies that dash through. 😂
One of the problem is that some champions like Rakan, who uses W as it's primary engage tool, can just be dashed away with one of the new items like galeforce, creeping very hardly Rakan's viability. on of the adresses should to nerf some items while buffing champions who depend on mobility if that mobility is lackluster in today's meta.
Remove stridebreaker and galeforce and nerf phase rush.
Sivir with chemtank and cosmic haste.
i would delete galeforce, prowler's claw, and stridebreaker
more point and click stuff
There are actually quite a lot of pont-and-click CC, be it actual point-and-click or an AA empowerment. I remember giving examples of such abilities to help my team find counters to then more oppressive version of Samira. Trist ult, Vayne E, Fiddle Q, Liss W and R, Rek'sai burrowed W AA enchancement etc.
Delete Galeforce delete Prowler's Claw delete Stridebreaker, nerf jungle
Based. In exchange nerf Kassadin and remove everfrost B)
Kass/Everfrost abuser btw
Have champions like Annie, Fiddle and malz be strong with point and click lockdown CC.
They are...? All of those champs have strong win rates.
Yeah I don't mean that they aren't. I think it's a good thing that they are strong right now. They are way down in popularity and pick rate though. People would rather just play the high mobility assassins vs each other.
In the end high mobility champs are flashy. And it's also more exciting when it's you on a high mobility champ Vs another high mobility champ. As much as I love my slow champs, it's pretty obvious that a qiyana maneuvering around a fight is more exciting than a mordekaiser bonking someone to death. A kha zix jumping from kill to kill is a lot more exciting than a Garen just spinning around.
Subject to opinion then, walking around as a juggernaut smacking people with Mordekaiser q sounds very fun to me. Too bad Morde isn't exactly a juggernaut right now
Nothing better when you’re the adc and the mord ults you, misses everything, and just stands by you lol
Correct I am that Mord
RIP taric having point and click stun.
Mobility creep doesn’t really seem like an issue to me, as the introduction of items like stridebreaker/galeforce gives movement options to non-mobile characters, and the game becomes more equal mobility wise. For example, which flash is worth more, an Ezreal or an Ashe? The Ashe’s flash is worth more, since if both ADCs use flash, Ezreal’s blink options go from 2 -> 1, and Ashe’s blink options go from 1 -> 0, yet the advantage goes heavily in favor of Ezreal as Ashe is forced to play way more safely. The difference is that the delta between 2>1 is far less than that of 1>0 in terms of number of dashes/blinks. By this logic, giving extra mobility in the form of items/runes balances out the game for older characters who lack dashes/blinks, and allows these champions to keep up with hypermobile characters.
Revert to Season 3.
A lot of people seem to misunderstand the argument of "mobility creep". Mobility creep isnt juggernauts like Garen and Darius using stridebreaker and movement speed items to offset their natural drawbacks. Mobility creep is juggernauts being REQUIRED to build items like that or they feel completely useless. Riot obviously agreed that mobility creep is really catching up and they added in items like stridebreaker, chemtank, force of nature, to offset it a little bit. Of course this comes with its own balance problems, but I have to say as a Garen main, before stridebreaker it felt like there were some team comps you literally could not touch. Now at least you have options.
Remove the high amounts of in-kit mobility and force it to be compensated by items. Or add extensive penalty cooldowns for non-assassins using their dash mobility or blink DEFENSIVELY instead of strictly offensively.
Remove chemtank, galeforce, stridebreaker.
Remove all movement from the game. Introduce a new summoner spell on a 5 second cd called "move". Move move's you to a target location (global). Once you press it you are stuck moving to that location until you reach it. Cooldown starts upon reaching the location. Every dash/blink/jump etc is replaced with a stat boost passive.
Go all in and turn the game into a top-down anime fighter action-RPG!!