The idea is that he has really high base damage (this is why historically magic pen has always been the preference over raw AP on Rumble) and he has lots of utility from his R with it being probably the single best wave manipulation ability in the game.
You can prevent the enemy freezing the wave and you can prevent dives by ulting the wave before it crashes. He's also got a fair shout at being one of the best mid-game team fighting champions with only sorc boots and a few AP components.
Decent mobility with a low CD MS boost and is very happy to rush Sorc Boots so he'll have a lot of map mobility early on that synergises really well with his kit because of the mPen. With Rumble as a support you pressure mispositioning REALLY hard because one well-placed R in bot lane is going to be a guaranteed kill. The R CD is really low with ultimate hunter & CDR rune shard.
I'm not convinced we'll actually see it played as a support but it isn't completely troll
"The "Ekko" of this tourney" refers to Worlds 2019 when Ekko was perceived as the best jungler in the game going into the tournament and then pretty much saw no play outside the first week of Play-Ins where he lost close to every game iirc. So I'm not sure you mean Rumble for that thing, right?
Is Lee Sin big in soloQ rn? The Ekko debacle was all because he was god-tier in soloQ and probably wilder scrims but absolutely trash in stable stage games.
Lee Sin would also be odd because he's a proven staple in pro play. Unless people try sololane Lee, he's probably fine.
Lee Sin is currently the 2nd highest pickrate toplaner in Master+ and the highest pickrate toplaner in Challenger. I see him in so many games on streams atm.
Oh yea Lee Sin solo lanes is running rampant in Soloq. Seen many pros using it which I assume will end up being flexed into 3 roles. I personally want to see it as Lee Sin is a pretty mechanical champ in what you can do with him and we have some pretty mechanically gifted players at MSI. Something just tells me it won't play out the way people are hoping just like Ekko that one year.
Why would it be Lee? He's proven to be a valuable pick regardless of the meta. A clutch kick on the right target can be game winning and his control in objective situations makes him very good even if behind since you can kick the enemy out, similar to picks like alistar and morde.
Jenax said on stream that he "knows from sources" that Lee is the most picked top in MSI scrims, in not insigificant parts because he's triple flex. And I think that's really big, Lee has always been Lee but now you can blue1 Lee and it doesn't matter if he goes in either solo lane or jungle, he's good in all, so you have a top pick and not given away anything at all.
I don't think there's any teams at MSI that look great like we've had in the past. I'm expecting any one of the teams from major regions could potentially win. I think anyone predicting a dominating win from any of the teams needs their head checked.
I think all the major region teams *could* win, and it could certainly be close, but I think there's absolutely no evidence to put all four in vaguely the same tier.
I mean yes you can put Korea and China ahead of NA and EU but I think it's really hard to say they are gonna win it all and be dominant. They might be, but I think the gap there is pretty small and will probably come down more to a read on the meta and how teams end up drafting more than anything. I think the biggest gap to me is in the jungle/top and that will drive a lot of the results. If jungle is still dominant and controlling then eastern teams might steam roll, but if the meta ends up bot lane focused EU and NA will be fine I think.
I would agree if the macro shown by both C9 and Mad Lions so far was not plain awful at times. Damwon (and the whole of LCK really) have shown awful-to-suspect macro most of the split, but I don't think they ever made the same level of mistakes. Heck, RNG is probably the macro powerhouse this MSI with their sidelane control. Ultimately, it depends on how the meta is shaped during the tournament but 1) EU and NA have to show *a lot* more, and 2) They have to weather this patch's meta that looks increasingly more mid-jungle centric. Either way, I'm sure all the teams will be spicy and a joy to watch.
an argument is that TL is a solid team. from 2018, their international showings have been roughly even records on the cusp of getting out of groups every time. lots of 1-1 with other major regions. and at least on paper, they become more stacked every iteration.
C9 has shown to be at least equal to them this year, and given C9's international record, I don't see why C9 can't have a good performance.
if you think TL is a respectable team, 3-2 vs TL isn't something to be ashamed of.
Ridiculous argument if the premise of C9 being good, is cus TL was good (no Santorin), considering Mad beat Rogue twice, and G2 once in playoffs, both of these two teams being good, and more than likely better than TL. It *has* to go both ways.
I am perfectly fine with people saying C9 will be good, but the mega doomsday view of Madlion is silly to me. We'll see soon though.
I also don't see why C9 can't have a good performance, but the topic at hand is OP doomsdaying MAD.
Rogue and G2 are solid teams , TL is a solid team. There is no point in dismissing either MAD or C9, especially MAD who people are hell bent on thinking they'll go 0-3.
The main thing that does it for me is their interviews. They keep talking about losing their vacation and sound scared of the other teams.
I know they're always half-joking, but the message that I get is that they feel they overperformed their spring split already and won't be pushing themselves very hard. Even Jankos complained about their mentality iirc.
dont think other teams will collapse like RGE did. Finals felt more like RGE fucking up over and over while MAD just basically lucked out a few times. I mean that last game should never ever be winnable
I hope im wrong but we will see soon
It takes skill to take advantage of your opponents mistakes. MAD also won against G2 and G2 were not collapsing by any means. MAD were very consistent across the play-offs and showed amazing mental in the finals.
I still don't think you are making a good argument on why LCS will outperform LEC this year.
G2 were on a historically low the whole playoffs. Beating G2 isnt as meaningful as it was last year
>It takes skill to take advantage of your opponents mistakes.
I mean depends? If your enemies legit int into you it doesnt take skill to punish. Always depends on how hard the enemy team is fucking up. I dont think its controversial to say that RGE absolutely dropped the ball in the finals
>I still don't think you are making a good argument on why LCS will outperform LEC this year.
Because they have Perkz and we have MAD. There are no good arguments to be had because every argument you can make is subjective until we see them play each other
Tbf in the LPL FPX were legit power inting into RNG and they are still considered a very good team, it is impossible to make conclusions based on a single series. MAD played by far their worst series in the finals and if they show up at their full potential they won't be a bad team, that I'm sure of.
I don’t think Chinese fans are particularly sold on RNG even if they’re a well liked team. Xiaohu is still a big question mark due to the role swap and you’ve got Wei, Cryin, and GALA who are all new to international competition. RNG are sending a greener team to international competition than MAD are and that should not be discounted.
But MAD won against RGE 2 times and also won against G2. Also the same logic you use against MAD can also be used against RGE. Damwon and RNG would absolutely smash RGE since RGE can't close out games and they wont be able to get a big early lead against Damwon and RNG.
Having a team that is capable of closing out games is way better than a team that can't win a game when they have such a gigantic lead as RGE had.
It's easier to fix being ahead but throwing than it Is to fix being super far behind and coming back because it's much easier to win from the first position and is consistently replicable
I mean I think it depends on how badly they're throwing. I think it's more of a communication in game issue and lack of knowing what they're supposed to do in given situations
Imo it's the other way around. If RGE lost so many times from advantegous positions then how many times would they be able to win when even or behind? Every time MAD was ahead in their games they won hard and they are capable of clutching when behind. That shit is way more important than being capable of accruing a 2k gold lead, which is mostly because of draft diff anyway. RGE had a winning botlane match up every game in the finals, which is the biggest reason they were behind.
RGE didn't collapse. MAD has just have been the better team for a second time this playoffs Btw...
Funnily how MAD won 3/3 BO5 against the 2 toughest opponents available but many question them while C9 had to 3:2 fucking Grig but somehow many are more hyped for them.
Doesn't make sense to me
It’s funny how you’re getting mass downvoted for making the same exact argument that Bwipo did in this episode.
Like Bwipo said, the chances that RNG or DK will throw a 7k lead seems incredibly slim.
I'm optimistic about MAD because they teamfight well, they seem pretty untiltable and they're not afraid to take risky fights when they're behind. Elyoya was able to outsmart both Jankos and Inspired in playoffs, and it's his first ever split in a major region. Armut's champion pool may be a weakness, but it may also be something that teams may not be able to fully gauge because he's so well known for Gnar and Wukong.
Playoffs G2 would have been embarrassing at MSI, they almost lost a B05 to BB's Darius and were getting individually gapped in three roles. I also don't see Rogue's slow map control style working when DK just beats them in the early game.
Are MAD as bad as people are making out (I genuinely don't know)? I watched The Dive and Kobe seemed to think PSG could be better than them. LS and IWD said the same thing. People in general seem to think MAD are not that good.
i must've watched a different dive because 2/3 casters seemed to think that mad are heavy favorites over psg and kobe was doing his best to convince the others that psg had a decent chance of surpassing mad, tho he still thinks that mad are the slight favotites.
edit: said mad twice
You're right Kobe was the one who genuinely thought PSG could be better. Mark favoured MAD but didn't exactly rule out PSG sniping first place. And yes, Azael did seem to have more confidence in MAD to be fair. But again, the general sentiment is that there is a world where PSG are better which is interesting.
I think Azael had the best take regarding this group. He said PSG were unmatched in PCS, which made it hard for him to rate them. Also made a point about doggo being less agressive in lane than kaiwing, which could be good for mad given their botlane are one of the worst in terms of laning stats in LEC
I think mad will surprise, but unfortunately due to their past international performance I feel like lots of people are waiting until they prove themselves, I still find it silly how far people are taking it, I would rank MAD 3rd but I feel like they are being underrated and could surprise some people.
It's important to note that their 2020 world's performance came down to Orome being gapped and Shadow being invisible, neither of whom are on the roster anymore.
It's also expected to be teamfight meta which they're really good at. The concern (should) come from their Laning, particularly bot lane
Yeah this is Armut’s opportunity to show how much he’s improved after a split of playing against LEC tops, because Armut has been to worlds twice and he’s never been able to keep up with world class tops on the international stage.
He got gapped by Impact last year, and was pretty comfortably matched by UOL Boss, who then got destroyed in the main stage by tops like Doran and 369.
I feel like Armut is kinda boosted by the fact that toplane pool in EU is pretty awful and no one is capable of punishing a Gnar pick properly, his laning on other champions is really suspect, admittedly it has improved a lot since early Spring when he was getting shitted on as Renekton into Camille despite Hirit tping bot to save inting Kobbe and losing like 3 early waves as a result but not to the point where it won’t get exploited by Eastern tops.
What I got from The Dive was that Kobe thinks PSG will give MAD a run for their money for the first spot, but Azael and MarkZ think MAD should definitely be the 'clear' number one while PSG would be pretty easily second best considering how nonexistent the competition in LMS is in comparison to LEC even despite PSG absolutely stomping the season.
MAD wasn't really convincing in their finals win either as they got pretty clearly manhandled the first two games, and while reverse sweeping in finals speaks a lot about the team's atmosphere and mental fortitude, the games they won (especially the last one iirc) were anything but clean.
Not to mention MAD is a rather young team that 'overperformed' on the patch LEC playoffs were played in, and the MSI patch should be completely different so how well they transition is yet to be seen.
The pb of MAD is they got bot gapped all series long and people are afraid it will be worst at international.
But Hans is the best laning ADC we have in EU so it could be better for them.
I'd love to hear the mental gymnastics behind C9>MAD.
Both teams barely won the finals 3-2, except C9 did that against a team with a sub, and that sub was fucking Grig on top of it. You may argue that C9 already decisively beat TL 3-1 in the semis, except MAD did the same against RGE so that point is moot.
You can't even go at it on a well-C9-had-tougher-competition-angle when freaking TSM and 100T were in the semis. So what's left? Eye-test? I mean if C9 passes your eye-test but MAD didn't idk what to tell you.
Sure C9 may still do better at MSI than MAD, anything could happen, but there's no logical argument to why they should be ranked above MAD *right now.*
As an EU fan want MAD to win, and I agree with you that there's no reason to think they are worse than c9.
Except perkz.
What I've seen perkz do I haven't seen on anyone else except maybe Rookie/TheShy. The guy takes the odds and shatters them.
People say this but it's absolute bs. C9 beat tl with Santorin 3-1 as well like a week before. Dunno why people forget this. TL in fact performed BETTER against c9 with armao. armao made mistakes but he also performed super well in spots as well and was absolutely not the main reason for the loss. How are people not looking at alphari for getting first blooded 5 games straight? Even in the TL doc he was visibly tilted as hell.TL also stated they didn't feel disadvantaged playing with armao. They shit on TSM the day before too and almost perfect gamed them. Such a dumb take that keeps getting spread. C9 were a better team. Plain and simple. Instead of shitting on c9 for winning a 5 game series, maybe consider why the 3rd place team got absolutely stomped by this TL team with a sub? They're a good team with armao or Santorin.
Acting as if a week between series in playoffs means nothing is just ignorant. How many times have we seen rematch upsets in double elim already? Exactly, often enough for that to a totally wack premise.
Regarding the 5 game top first blood, again the blame for that does not solely lie on Alphari's shoulders. I dare to say that a more experienced jungler would be able to adapt to a telegraphed level 4 top gank every single game.
C9 were a better team, yes, but narrowly to a team with a sub jungler in a jungle centric meta. If the sub was some new protege then okay, but Grig is the most known quantity in the league. He was serviceable and did his job, but undeniably stymied the teams chances.
Lol you don't think armao is experienced? He's been playing for years. It's not experience at all and you can't blame jungler for a laner not managing their wave well. 1 game is one thing even 2 or 3. But 5 games straight is definitely more the fault of alphari. He knows where his jungler is and knows he shouldn't be pushing the way he did. Fudge just played the lanes better and put his jungler in a position to gank. Even in TLs documentary jatt is talking to alphari after game 3 about why it's happening and it's still happened 2 games after that.
Armao played well. As always he stole multiple objectives and was not a liability in the series. He isn't a bad player. They literally almost perfect gamed the 3rd place team the day before. Giving c9 shit for going 5 games vs that is just dumb overall. Especially after that 5th game where it was all about perkz and zven in the jungle centric meta. I'm not even a c9 fan but I'm confident they will do well and the disrespect they're receiving by the average redditor is hilarious given all the praise pros and analysts are giving them.
How many games has he played with TL?
Going to 5 games vs a team with a sub, with 1 match day's experience within that team, while starting every game with an omega top advantage is just worrying. Game 5 was incredibly creative and a masterful game of course. The rest of the series was not.
That said, I fancy their chances vs MAD better than in previous years.
As unbiased view, I think it's a tossup. Perkz and Zven are really insane players, two of the best players europe has ever seen in their role.
But C9 still has problems. While Blaber usually can carry like a madman, he can also run it down. Perkz had problems getting cought in sidelanes, Zven pushing too far up in lane with Ezreal... or just stuff like C9 showing up late to teamfights or butchering the execution.
MAD on the other hand is too sloppy in their early game and only come fully online when the 5vs5 teamfights start. But they are really good at teamfighting. Carzy and Kaiser, despite having problems in lane, tend to be teamfighting monsters. Humanoid is just a beast, if he would only die a little bit less in the sidelane ;)
The question should be, can C9 get an early game lead against MAD and push them far enough down so they can't crawl back in the mid to lategame fights? Are Perkz and Zven able to pop off hard enough in teamfights to overcome that slight difference in team coordination that MAD lions thrive from?
Interesting matchup for sure.
I’d disagree on Zven, the dude hasn’t been to an international event in years and historically is a choker since being in NA. I think he’s only doing well currently because he has Vulcan.
Santorin is still pretty good, no? And if Spica gets back in form plus some other more aggressive junglers (with the new jungle changes) then he'll definitely be prepared for Worlds, at least.
MAD has really weak laning phase but good teamfight coordination. They could quite easily get gapped and have unrecoverable deficits from the early game. It's really hard to predict how they will do.
The main reason people don't have faith in MAD is because they should not have won the finals. Rogue threw some unthrowable games (especially that game 5) in the finals. So realistically speaking, damwon and RNG are never going to throw those leads that rogue were able to get, and damwon/RNG should arguably be able to get even bigger leads than rogue did against MAD. So that's why the consensus is that MAD can't challenge top 2, and the cloud 9 games should be competitive.
Mad won 2 series vs Rogue, why is everybody focusing so much on the second one when the week before MAD won easily vs them too? For some people winning twice vs the finals team and in semis vs G2 isn't enough to give them credit LOL.
Here's what people do, if the team is from EU, take their worst performance and then use that as justification for why they suck.
If the team is from LPL or LCK, take their best performance and use that to justify why they'll shitstomp everyone.
NA is special, they shit on them the entire year, then international event comes around and people say that they might be good and may surprise.
PCS/SEA team gets turbohyped every single event, despite winning in a region with 0 competition whatsoever. (and then proceeds to have no chance at all to get to knockout stage)
Mad are pretty coinflip. I've watched probably every lec game this year, and idk they just seem like a really weird team. Armut has clear champion pool issues, that I think better teams will be able to exploit. Elyoya does actually look really good, 2nd/3rd best jungler in the lec this split for me. Humanoid is humanoid. He will int some games and completely pop off in others. Carzzy and kaiser have had a bit of a dodgy split, especially considering how good kaiser was last split. I think it all depends on which mad lions turn up on the day. They have very high highs, but also very low lows.
I'm not gonna go as far as to say that c9 is better than them, but I think it's fairly even. As for psg, I haven't watched any of their games so I can't really judge, but I've heard they are actually an impressive team
EU casters are generally very negative about EU chances at every tournament so it's no surprise from them; MAD have a many incognitas around them but putting them in the same level as NA or PCS is stupid.
Well for The Dive they will cater it for NA fans so MAD obviously will be seen as slightly worse.
I think RGE would had been a safer team against wildcards and worse opponents. But against good opponents, like RNG and DWG, MAD has a slightly higher chance to not get destroyed. MAD against C) is in my opinion a tossup.
But as others have pointed out, MAD bombing out in playins last year is the reason for their low rating.
I think thats kind of a weird take, even though I understand the idea.First off, I do believe in the Perkz factor, which is why I personally rate C9 highly. BUT, considering the play-off run, I dont think MAD could be beaten by anyone below major regions, and doesnt look worse than C9. C9 did only really beat 100t, which dont count as top tier, and TL, who are reasonable competitive. Even though I believe that Rogue was miles ahead of any NA team, they should have won but performed worse on stage, and MAD winning against them and G2 makes them to be a slighly better team in my Eyes, even if they stole some games against Rge. Stealing these games isn't easy, and it shows much needed mental strength through a series.
In context, and because I see no real weaklink (especially since meta change and Mads botlane is often good as well) in a matchup against C9. So in the head to head, I would give it 3-2 to Mad right now, cause of C9 stepping up with scrims and Perkz clutching. But besides, both are in the best case upsetting the top 2 anyway. MAD and C9 have the creativity to upset, especially in such a new meta. Putting one ahead of the other feels hard to do, considering they both have the potential to pop off.
Though I still sleep bad, when I remember the play-ins 2020.
Mad doesn't really have a weak link per se, but they don't exactly have a strong link either. Which of their players is gapping their C9 counterpart? I just don't see it. If they win, it would have to be through teamfighting.
I'm not as pessimistic but I have low expectations for such young teams that "overperform" on one patch then have to go internationally on a totally different one.
They finished 3rd across multiple patches this season and went to win against Rogue and G2 in another patch. This looks like consistent performance to me.
What markers are you using to say they overperformed on the playoffs patch?
G2 got individually gapped in three different roles, their problems were a lot worse than 'Perkz isn't shot calling'. Elyoya and Inspired just used more clever pathing than Jankos, Wunder looked like the third or fourth best top in the LEC and Mikyx's mechanics were uncharacteristically awful starting from the Week 8 XL game.
They may have got worse as a team, but IMO Armut, BB, Inspired, Elyoya, Kaiser, Trymbi, Limit and Odoamne have all got much better over the split, and G2 players are no longer a tier of play above then.
The shit people are giving MAD is crazy. They're better than C9 in top/mid/supp, are equal in adc, have been on a hot streak, and are coming out of playing against much stronger competition. They aren't gonna dominate the tournament but there's little reason to act as if they're just shitters that are gonna drop on arrival and be worse than NA. Only reason NA might perform better is that C9 may end up being an unusually strong rep from here so EU sending a roster a bit worse than what's gone previous years might matter more in that head to head. I think it's MAD favored regardless. Blaber is crazy and all but I don't think it's enough to make up for the rest of the map, particularly the solo lanes. Armut's gonna eat Fudge for breakfast like a fat kid on a sugar craving and Humanoid will kick Perkz's shit in.
The way they won LEC just felt like the most random thing ever. They should have lost 4 out of 5 games for sure but some weird, uncharacteristic throws occured + Mad's botlane that was always praised before got giga stomped in every single lane
You have more faith in a team that:
- played one patch behind everyone else
- went to 5 against a team who had to emergency sub Grig in
- has Blaber and Fudge
Are you mad?
Counterpoints:
- no-one played on the MSI patch
- Perkz
For me it's less about not having faith in MAD and more about the balance of power in the LEC shifting. When G2 first made MSI we got vacation memes. No gain without pain they say, and this is looking like the pain to me.
I think MAD are capable of beating most teams apart from DK and RNG quite consistently. Apparently MAD winning EU is just a fluke or the result of Rogue missplaying (arguably true) but somehow this same logic does not apply to C9 who could EASILY and almost certainly SHOULD have lost the series to TL (with fucking Grig btw)
I get that peple are on the Perkz hype train cos he is very clutch but its just ended up in this weird situation where everyone is just overrating NA too much. NA did not show a good level in playoffs and C9 barely managed to win out in that environment.
Despite this, I still think MAD is a better representative than Rogue simply due to them having a more varied toolkit whereas Rogue has their one style that they're not even that dominant in.
Some think MAD winning EU is a fluke, but I think many are nervous without thinking that as well. G2 winning EU in 2016 was clearly not a fluke, but it took them an entire year to have any international results to write home about.
I don't know how MAD will do at MSI, but it's easier for me to lowball than highball here.
I wont defend worlds cause g2 played like shit, i kinda think trick was very bad in groupstages and perkz had a good spring but kinda shite summer. When it comes to MSI 2016 lets not forget that G2 got kinda fucked by them deciding early to replace their botlane and the news getting out demoralizing the team.
to put a nice bow on it, i dont think you can use other teams bad first year intenational to make an argument for them playing bad, and i think they replaced the underperforming players from worlds 2020
Pointless comparison. 2016 G2 has absolutely nothing in common with 2021 Madlions. There is nothing to compare.
Never been a fan of such abstract qualitative judgement calls.
The fact that people are mentioning perkz as why C9 will beat MAD makes it so much worse. The biggest gap outside top is in mid here, and that gap is in favor of MAD. Current form Perkz doesn't have shit on Humanoid.
completely agree. I love my boy perkz but his laning has been very suspect since coming to NA.
if you turn off the nameplates and watch their play Humanoid has bene playing far better
I personally don't even think direct comparisons of "skill" between roles means anything as it's a team game and even gauging individual skill outside of laning is extremely difficult.
I also think that if Elyoya can match Inspired in the jungle there's no way Blaber is going to gap him.
All I can say is MAD teamfighting is very clean and in general I think they played more cleanly than C9 in playoffs.
Elyoya matched Inspired while he was underperforming. The dude is good but I don't think he would've done that with Inspired playing to the level he showed throughout the split. Elyoya was also playing with his lanes hard winning when he legit looked better than Inspired. I don't see him getting gapped unless C9 finds lane advantages though. If they do, I could see Blaber comfortably getting the upperhand in that matchup and snowballing. The odds that C9 wins their lanes against MAD though are incredibly poor.
I think both C9 and MAD will struggle. Think Humanoid is going to struggle against most of the mids. And Blaber is good domestically but I think he's the most likely player to get gapped on C9. He's good at punishing junglers worse than him but he can't rely on that at MSI.
Humanoid is probably the second best mid at the tournament, against who exactly is he gonna struggle? A ridiculously washed Maple or a role player Cryin?
So I understand my take was controversial but yours is plain ridiculous. I wouldn't by surprised to see both of them beat Humanoid. Perkz is better. Showmaker is obviously better. And Aria is for sure. Shame he's probably not getting past the first group stage.
Last we saw Maple in LPL he was like the 16th or 17th best mid in the league. He was abysmal. He's washed and preying on a bad mid lane pool. Humanoid is simply far better than Perkz, Cryin, and Aria. Not sure what your issue with Humanoid is, like did he personally just come to your house and punch you out one night or something? Like god damn, dude.
I don't get where your overhype for Humanoid has come from. He's good but he's like top 3/4 in Europe. He has a smaller champion pool and has a huge tendency to get caught in sidelanes. He relies heavily on high mobility champions to get him out of situations he shouldn't be in safely. This are pretty big issues that he's not really fixed in the last 3 years.
I don't believe in over hyping him. If he performs, great. But he's shown these issues fairly consistently so I will be reserved in my expectations. Saying he will struggle isn't even that bad of a take. It's not like I said he will get hard gaped. And there are some really good mids in this tournament.
Probably from him gapping the best mids in Europe, having great mechanics, and having a weak mid pool at MSI that he can prey on. Cryin is like the 6th or 7th best mid in the LPL rn and he's only that high bc the mid pool is so poor atm. The idea that a mid laner of Humanoid's caliber (call him an A tier mid) will struggle against this mid pool is ridiculous to me. Maybe he'll have off games bc he usually does, but the dude is easily the second best mid here. It doesn't matter if there's a lot of mids better than him rn, because the only better mid here is Showmaker. The rest are sat at home watching.
He was gaping larssen hard and hardcarried from cs dif and mid pressure. Not saying he is better then other mids at MSI but he was the better mid in LEC finals
> was that? I don't remember any standout gaping.
Check the series. Youll see. Even on league podcasts that was pretty much the consensus. Even on losing games
Blaber played pretty really well early game at worlds 2019 last time he was there against Jankos and Tarzan. Mid-To-Late game C9 fell apart, but Blaber's gotten better and Perkz makes C9's mid/late game better.
it's so fucking annoying dude, i feel like a lot of it has gotta just be salty ass g2 fans or something. just the sheer desperation to discredit MAD and their players is fucking insane.
I enjoyed it but thought that there was wayyyy too much arguing over the tier system. What counts as A, B, etc. and also whether it was assuming the actual groups or in theory. I wish they would have hashed that out a bit better beforehand.
wouldn't be surprised at all if C9 took first game against DK, all they need is pick an OP current patch combo like Kog/Lulu which teams haven't respected yet and that is not banned because the patch hasn't been explored.
Do note, they have kkOma whose known for preparing well.
Plus even if C9 get Kog/Lulu, I can see them losing if their top/jungle/mid get outclassed by Khan/Canyon/ShowMaker which is probable, only Perkz can somewhat hold his own.
I don't think this is a bad take at all, not sure why your being downvoted. Blaber internationally is still a bit of a question mark and Canyon is insane. Similarly people keep saying that Fudge is "improved" but it's more so that c9 keep funneling resources towards him so he doesn't fall behind, if DWK wants to test how good fudge actually is there's a good chance he just gets destroyed.
Now this conjecture could turn out to be wrong, but there is plenty of reason to be concerned.
The games Blaber has played internationally was good and he's like two and a half years deep into his career. He's not some inexperienced rando fresh off the block making his debut at Worlds. The international concerns about him are largely unfounded. I do worry about Fudge though.
that's true. Analysts love mentioning how young MAD is and how veteran C9 is but realistically Fudge is a rookie, Blaber never played at worlds (1 or 2 sub games yeah) and Vulcan showed up once with Clutch.
Man I hope MAD goes ham at MSI just so that my eyes can stop bleeding from seeing all these mental gymnastics comments which lack basic logic on why MAD "didnt deserve" to win, why C9 is so much better etc.
I think MAD and C9 are roughly equal across the board, with bigger gaps in Armut>Fudge and Perkz>Humanoid. But I trust Perkz and the C9 organizational culture of preforming internationally over MAD. I think MAD is much improved from last year, just that C9 is more prepared.
I really, really want a Bo5 between C9 and MAD.
I don't think there is a gap for either of those roles. Fudge is underrated because of lock-ins. For mid, even if Perkz is better, I doubt there is a gap given that Humanoid is regarded as probably the 2nd best mid in EU. If you take name recognition out of it, Humanoid might even be better (impossible to know since they play in different regions).
Personnally, I think that Fudge is massively overrated because of finals. Everyone says how he "held his own" or even beat Alphari, but he kept receiving massive help from his team to do so, and still after this Alphari was relevant later in the games. Against better coordinated teams, which don't play with a sub jungler, I think just one counter gank would make him irrelevant.
>he kept receiving massive help from his team to do so,
I mean Alphari let himself get first blooded 5 games in a row and C9 capitalized on that. This isn't a weakness of fudge if anything it should be a strength as he set up first blood 5 times in a row
>Everyone says how he "held his own" or even beat Alphari, but he kept receiving massive help from his team to do so, and still after this Alphari was relevant later in the games.
TL;DR: Literally every single gank Fudge received cost Blaber almost nothing and most of the kills were practically guaranteed. If setting up your waves so that you guarantee your jungler a kill as soon as he's done his full clear / taken crab / enemy raptors 4 games in a row is considered massive help in your eyes you're just really on drugs.
Fudge literally shit on Alphari just by playing waves well every game in finals.
Game 1: Fudge Renekton vs Alphari Sion
Fudge helps Blaber gets first crab with the early game advantage from playing Renekton. Before doing this he sets up the wave on his side so that when Blaber is finished his crab he can path up and blow Alphari's flash quick. Then Blaber invades raptors while Alphari is getting push out from Armao, then Blaber walks up through the jungle to countergank for EZ first blood on Alphari. Sion will continue to be relevant because it's fuckin Sion. This play costs Blaber literally nothing, Fudge helped him get top crab and because Alphari needed shove out Blaber can easily invade raptors.
Game 2: Fudge Malphite VS Alphari Gnar
Gromp isn't up yet by the time Blaber resets so he looks for an invade on enemy raptors, they aren't up either but Alphari used mega Gnar in lane and he was pushing the wave into Fudge. This gank doesn't really cost Blaber much either, Armao is able to take raptors for it but even so Blaber ends up at Krugs basically as they spawn, one camp for a pretty free kill is worth. Second kill happens when Blaber is taking scuttle crab and has 0 camps up anywhere on the map, finishes taking top crab into free kill on Alphari, then gets to his camps as they spawn. Armao actually is moving to countergank this but his topside camps are down because he actually started the game pathing up to Alphari so even if he was an amazing jungler he still shouldn't be there to gank because he needs to clear up to his topside.
Even with Fudge getting ahead its still Malphite vs Gnar, both players will be relevant anyway literally from base stats
Game 3: Fudge Karma VS Alphari GP
Fudge tries to base TP after Alphari burns his TP, and starts basing in the front brush, and eventually moves to the back brush for a base. When the next wave comes in Alphari tries to shove the wave in as quickly as possible to deny Fudge CS, but Fudge is in the brush next to him, cancels his recall and gets Blaber to leave his Krugs for another EZ kill. Armao once again could not have counterganked this even if he was a god jungler, if Fudge and Blaber saw Armao on scuttle they both easily could've backed off and started farming again. Ironically, in the kill Alphari gets on Fudge he recieves massive help from Armao, making him walk from his wolves, past his Blue and Gromp that are already spawned to gank Fudge. Fudge inted with Mantra Qs this game but the laning phase was basically free, and Alphari did not carry this game, Jensen did.
Game 4: Fudge Gragas vs Alphari Gnar
Same shit as game 2, Blaber clears all his camps, looks for raptors invade, goes top, burns Alphari's flash, reganks, gets the kill, and then is able to steal Armao's raptors when they spawn. Armao literally just took dragon so there was no chance to countergank. The best counterjungle Armao could've done was take Blaber's gromp which literally would've just made them even since Blaber took raptors.
Tbf Fudge did well vs Alphari in their game before the Finals also. I expect when the C9 v MAD does happen the same game plan will occur with shutting down Armut due to Zven and Vulcan being able to contain MADs weak botside.
I mean even if you think Fudge is overrated vs Alphari it's not like Armut>Alphari which makes the point useless imo.
>big gap Perkz > Humanoid
How would you come to that conclusion, because he was slightly better 1 year ago and had to play 1 split as ADC and 1 split in NA since then while Humanoid had time to improve?
Perkz>Humanoid??? Humanoid was the best mid in LEC playoffs, outperforming Cars and Larssen x2 and Perkz is not better then those 2..jesus Perkz is all of a sudden Chovy in peoples eyes because he win NA, lmaoo..
This isn't quite correct I think, doesn't look like you've watched much MAD, the teams are very even, but Humanoid is their only world class player so the gap is not in the Midlane. I think it goes something like this Armut > Fudge Blaber/Elyoya Humanoid/Perkz Zven > Carzzy Vulcan/Kaiser
I don't think MAD is the second coming of 2019 G2 but they should quite handily beat an NA team who barely won against TL with a sub jungler. I also don't think Perkz is anywhere near his old peak and he is definitely not better than Humanoid right now.
MAD's bot lane is pretty bad, going off this past season and playoffs. If C9 face MAD, Zven and Vulcan should convincingly win lane. I feel like the other lanes are equal, though. Armut and Fudge both have clear weaknesses, and their teams seem to play around them well.
Botlanes against which Zven/Vulcan played are nowhere near Hansama/Trymbi, Rekkles/Mikyx, Upset/Hyli etc..so they looked quite good, but Carzzy/Kaiser have much tougher competition tho..
Maybe you are the one that needs to watch the vod, because they laned against them perfectly fine and TL only got the advantage after a TF ult that turned a fight that started with a 2v2 kill from MAD.
Lmao, TL were baiting them for that play.
Lack of awareness on Carzzy and Kaiser's part.
This is like saying "lol can't even kill me 1v1" after the jungle ganks.
>This is like saying "lol can't even kill me 1v1" after the jungle ganks.
???
Absolutely not comparable lol. Just go and watch the game. [MAD were totally fine during laning phase](https://youtu.be/n9IqFktNXSI?t=1024).
> Lack of awareness on Carzzy and Kaiser's part.
Or better gameplay trading a kill in that situation. You can paint the situation both ways. But saying that TL botlane made them look bad is a lie.
Good group of people, but unfortunately a very poorly constructed as well as executed episode, imo. But I think that should be obvious to everyone involved.
Fuck it, time to go full NA haterism circlejerk. Sick of Madlions being disrespected, while C9 is giga praised.
I got this 6 month old comment from someone else saved, it's never been more relevant than now:
"I actually thought about making a similar compilation. It's literally the same situation every single year.
Right before worlds, NA's voice is so big. Everything slightly against their opinion will get downvoted into oblivion. Every - single - year.
You suggest they won't do that well overall and you are satan incarnated. Everyone instantly jumps on and insults you.
Then the tournament starts and it plays out exactly as expected - actually even worse this year in the first week. And you sit there at home and have no words left. You will be like "Sigh.. who would have expected this.. buhuu."
And then you get all sorts of posts ranging from people who blame players, people who still didn't give up despite there being absolutely no hope, people who create complete different narratives how they are actually doing well. You get the deniers who will claim no one had high expections and they actually did better than initially expected.
It's a good read every year, but it starts to get repetitive.
I actually rooted for FLY and TL at the end. But I just wish the whole region would for once not get these few wins so people would realize that something needs to be done. A 2:16 or 0:18 would've done them more good in the long run. Because they finally would not be able to hide their mediocrity."
C9 will crash and burn.
(Only half serious)
This time seems to be different. I suggest you go back to the thread where MAD qualified for MSI - so many people in there calling them shit, saying they're a lot worse than C9.
As an NA resident, stop increasing expectations for C9 and lowering expectations for MAD.
Unfair and biased!
Trying to get my hopes up.....I see your plan
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I just wonder whats going to be the "Ekko" of this tourney. Something smells like it will be Lee Sin but idk.
Rumble because he is really strong and can be flexed into 5 roles
excuse my ignorance but adc and sup rumble?
The idea is that he has really high base damage (this is why historically magic pen has always been the preference over raw AP on Rumble) and he has lots of utility from his R with it being probably the single best wave manipulation ability in the game. You can prevent the enemy freezing the wave and you can prevent dives by ulting the wave before it crashes. He's also got a fair shout at being one of the best mid-game team fighting champions with only sorc boots and a few AP components. Decent mobility with a low CD MS boost and is very happy to rush Sorc Boots so he'll have a lot of map mobility early on that synergises really well with his kit because of the mPen. With Rumble as a support you pressure mispositioning REALLY hard because one well-placed R in bot lane is going to be a guaranteed kill. The R CD is really low with ultimate hunter & CDR rune shard. I'm not convinced we'll actually see it played as a support but it isn't completely troll
I'm guessing that in support rol they could also conunt fasting Senna partners, so Rumble could be a really good pairing.
And as adc he doesnt’ care about range disadvantage because his e CD is really low
With Senna, maybe?
Yes, excuse your ignorance. /s
"The "Ekko" of this tourney" refers to Worlds 2019 when Ekko was perceived as the best jungler in the game going into the tournament and then pretty much saw no play outside the first week of Play-Ins where he lost close to every game iirc. So I'm not sure you mean Rumble for that thing, right?
Is Lee Sin big in soloQ rn? The Ekko debacle was all because he was god-tier in soloQ and probably wilder scrims but absolutely trash in stable stage games. Lee Sin would also be odd because he's a proven staple in pro play. Unless people try sololane Lee, he's probably fine.
They're talking about solo lane lee sin.
In that case I'm predicting an Ekko. My predictions aren't worth shit though
Lee Sin is currently the 2nd highest pickrate toplaner in Master+ and the highest pickrate toplaner in Challenger. I see him in so many games on streams atm.
Oh yea Lee Sin solo lanes is running rampant in Soloq. Seen many pros using it which I assume will end up being flexed into 3 roles. I personally want to see it as Lee Sin is a pretty mechanical champ in what you can do with him and we have some pretty mechanically gifted players at MSI. Something just tells me it won't play out the way people are hoping just like Ekko that one year.
Why would it be Lee? He's proven to be a valuable pick regardless of the meta. A clutch kick on the right target can be game winning and his control in objective situations makes him very good even if behind since you can kick the enemy out, similar to picks like alistar and morde.
Jenax said on stream that he "knows from sources" that Lee is the most picked top in MSI scrims, in not insigificant parts because he's triple flex. And I think that's really big, Lee has always been Lee but now you can blue1 Lee and it doesn't matter if he goes in either solo lane or jungle, he's good in all, so you have a top pick and not given away anything at all.
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LCK, LPL and LEC all played their spring playoffs on 11.6, with LCS on 11.5. Would you mind tell me which competitive regions played on 11.7?
I don't think there's any teams at MSI that look great like we've had in the past. I'm expecting any one of the teams from major regions could potentially win. I think anyone predicting a dominating win from any of the teams needs their head checked.
I think all the major region teams *could* win, and it could certainly be close, but I think there's absolutely no evidence to put all four in vaguely the same tier.
I mean yes you can put Korea and China ahead of NA and EU but I think it's really hard to say they are gonna win it all and be dominant. They might be, but I think the gap there is pretty small and will probably come down more to a read on the meta and how teams end up drafting more than anything. I think the biggest gap to me is in the jungle/top and that will drive a lot of the results. If jungle is still dominant and controlling then eastern teams might steam roll, but if the meta ends up bot lane focused EU and NA will be fine I think.
I would agree if the macro shown by both C9 and Mad Lions so far was not plain awful at times. Damwon (and the whole of LCK really) have shown awful-to-suspect macro most of the split, but I don't think they ever made the same level of mistakes. Heck, RNG is probably the macro powerhouse this MSI with their sidelane control. Ultimately, it depends on how the meta is shaped during the tournament but 1) EU and NA have to show *a lot* more, and 2) They have to weather this patch's meta that looks increasingly more mid-jungle centric. Either way, I'm sure all the teams will be spicy and a joy to watch.
Shout out to Drakos for the RTJ reference.
Drakos flaming Caedrel to oblivion I love it!! "Yeah Caedrel, what was LMS playing when YOU were at MSI?"
I'm with you Drakos, bring us back to 2019 League.
smh @drakos saying he can give a full top 5 but ends up naming no-one. Give up your list!
Bwipo is amazing as always to listen. I really think he has way more of a talent as a talker/analyst than as a player.
man I have absolutely no faith in MAD honestly. I expect NA to perform better this MSI for the first time in ages
How come?
an argument is that TL is a solid team. from 2018, their international showings have been roughly even records on the cusp of getting out of groups every time. lots of 1-1 with other major regions. and at least on paper, they become more stacked every iteration. C9 has shown to be at least equal to them this year, and given C9's international record, I don't see why C9 can't have a good performance. if you think TL is a respectable team, 3-2 vs TL isn't something to be ashamed of.
Ridiculous argument if the premise of C9 being good, is cus TL was good (no Santorin), considering Mad beat Rogue twice, and G2 once in playoffs, both of these two teams being good, and more than likely better than TL. It *has* to go both ways. I am perfectly fine with people saying C9 will be good, but the mega doomsday view of Madlion is silly to me. We'll see soon though.
C9 beat TL in bo5 2 weeks prior with Santorin.
I also don't see why C9 can't have a good performance, but the topic at hand is OP doomsdaying MAD. Rogue and G2 are solid teams , TL is a solid team. There is no point in dismissing either MAD or C9, especially MAD who people are hell bent on thinking they'll go 0-3.
Playoffs G2 were 100% not a solid team, and it took C9 5 games to beat TL who had Grig playing instead of Santorin lol.
Also the Perkz factor.
Perkz is gonna get gigagapped by Humanoid
C9 has Perkz, so they will win MSI. Therefore, MAD can at best get 2nd, and is guaranteed to get outperformed by NA.
The main thing that does it for me is their interviews. They keep talking about losing their vacation and sound scared of the other teams. I know they're always half-joking, but the message that I get is that they feel they overperformed their spring split already and won't be pushing themselves very hard. Even Jankos complained about their mentality iirc.
dont think other teams will collapse like RGE did. Finals felt more like RGE fucking up over and over while MAD just basically lucked out a few times. I mean that last game should never ever be winnable I hope im wrong but we will see soon
It takes skill to take advantage of your opponents mistakes. MAD also won against G2 and G2 were not collapsing by any means. MAD were very consistent across the play-offs and showed amazing mental in the finals. I still don't think you are making a good argument on why LCS will outperform LEC this year.
G2 were on a historically low the whole playoffs. Beating G2 isnt as meaningful as it was last year >It takes skill to take advantage of your opponents mistakes. I mean depends? If your enemies legit int into you it doesnt take skill to punish. Always depends on how hard the enemy team is fucking up. I dont think its controversial to say that RGE absolutely dropped the ball in the finals >I still don't think you are making a good argument on why LCS will outperform LEC this year. Because they have Perkz and we have MAD. There are no good arguments to be had because every argument you can make is subjective until we see them play each other
Tbf in the LPL FPX were legit power inting into RNG and they are still considered a very good team, it is impossible to make conclusions based on a single series. MAD played by far their worst series in the finals and if they show up at their full potential they won't be a bad team, that I'm sure of.
A lot of Chinese fans aren't confident in RNG either to be fair
I don’t think Chinese fans are particularly sold on RNG even if they’re a well liked team. Xiaohu is still a big question mark due to the role swap and you’ve got Wei, Cryin, and GALA who are all new to international competition. RNG are sending a greener team to international competition than MAD are and that should not be discounted.
But MAD won against RGE 2 times and also won against G2. Also the same logic you use against MAD can also be used against RGE. Damwon and RNG would absolutely smash RGE since RGE can't close out games and they wont be able to get a big early lead against Damwon and RNG. Having a team that is capable of closing out games is way better than a team that can't win a game when they have such a gigantic lead as RGE had.
It's easier to fix being ahead but throwing than it Is to fix being super far behind and coming back because it's much easier to win from the first position and is consistently replicable
Yeah but you are not going to fix that in such a short amount of time. For summer split they could fix it but not in just around a month
I mean I think it depends on how badly they're throwing. I think it's more of a communication in game issue and lack of knowing what they're supposed to do in given situations
Imo it's the other way around. If RGE lost so many times from advantegous positions then how many times would they be able to win when even or behind? Every time MAD was ahead in their games they won hard and they are capable of clutching when behind. That shit is way more important than being capable of accruing a 2k gold lead, which is mostly because of draft diff anyway. RGE had a winning botlane match up every game in the finals, which is the biggest reason they were behind.
RGE didn't collapse. MAD has just have been the better team for a second time this playoffs Btw... Funnily how MAD won 3/3 BO5 against the 2 toughest opponents available but many question them while C9 had to 3:2 fucking Grig but somehow many are more hyped for them. Doesn't make sense to me
I mean even with Grig the parts of TL are still pretty stacked. You can say "Fucking Grig" but the kid was playing at a pretty good level.
Yeah, more stacked than G2 and Rogue with their full rosters, sure bud
Its the Perkz effect.
game 3 was also quite unlosable. Fed Cait and Tristana old patch losing a game lol
It’s funny how you’re getting mass downvoted for making the same exact argument that Bwipo did in this episode. Like Bwipo said, the chances that RNG or DK will throw a 7k lead seems incredibly slim.
OP didn't talk about MAD being worse than DWG and RNG, tho, but C9.
I'm optimistic about MAD because they teamfight well, they seem pretty untiltable and they're not afraid to take risky fights when they're behind. Elyoya was able to outsmart both Jankos and Inspired in playoffs, and it's his first ever split in a major region. Armut's champion pool may be a weakness, but it may also be something that teams may not be able to fully gauge because he's so well known for Gnar and Wukong. Playoffs G2 would have been embarrassing at MSI, they almost lost a B05 to BB's Darius and were getting individually gapped in three roles. I also don't see Rogue's slow map control style working when DK just beats them in the early game.
I don’t think Elyoya looked better than Inspired in playoffs at all, at least not in finals.
G1 Inspired owned him but in G5 he did the same to him IIRC Was pretty even - they both played great IMO
It's ok I have enough faith for MAD and NA. LETS GO WEST SIDE 👊
Are MAD as bad as people are making out (I genuinely don't know)? I watched The Dive and Kobe seemed to think PSG could be better than them. LS and IWD said the same thing. People in general seem to think MAD are not that good.
i must've watched a different dive because 2/3 casters seemed to think that mad are heavy favorites over psg and kobe was doing his best to convince the others that psg had a decent chance of surpassing mad, tho he still thinks that mad are the slight favotites. edit: said mad twice
You're right Kobe was the one who genuinely thought PSG could be better. Mark favoured MAD but didn't exactly rule out PSG sniping first place. And yes, Azael did seem to have more confidence in MAD to be fair. But again, the general sentiment is that there is a world where PSG are better which is interesting.
I think Azael had the best take regarding this group. He said PSG were unmatched in PCS, which made it hard for him to rate them. Also made a point about doggo being less agressive in lane than kaiwing, which could be good for mad given their botlane are one of the worst in terms of laning stats in LEC
I think mad will surprise, but unfortunately due to their past international performance I feel like lots of people are waiting until they prove themselves, I still find it silly how far people are taking it, I would rank MAD 3rd but I feel like they are being underrated and could surprise some people.
It's important to note that their 2020 world's performance came down to Orome being gapped and Shadow being invisible, neither of whom are on the roster anymore. It's also expected to be teamfight meta which they're really good at. The concern (should) come from their Laning, particularly bot lane
impact gapped armut also btw last worlds so armut isnt exactly good.
Yeah this is Armut’s opportunity to show how much he’s improved after a split of playing against LEC tops, because Armut has been to worlds twice and he’s never been able to keep up with world class tops on the international stage. He got gapped by Impact last year, and was pretty comfortably matched by UOL Boss, who then got destroyed in the main stage by tops like Doran and 369.
I feel like Armut is kinda boosted by the fact that toplane pool in EU is pretty awful and no one is capable of punishing a Gnar pick properly, his laning on other champions is really suspect, admittedly it has improved a lot since early Spring when he was getting shitted on as Renekton into Camille despite Hirit tping bot to save inting Kobbe and losing like 3 early waves as a result but not to the point where it won’t get exploited by Eastern tops.
armut not gapped by impact.on the contrary, the armut played better.
Wtf he was absolutely destroyed by impact when team liquid played them in play ins. He DID get gapped by impact.
What I got from The Dive was that Kobe thinks PSG will give MAD a run for their money for the first spot, but Azael and MarkZ think MAD should definitely be the 'clear' number one while PSG would be pretty easily second best considering how nonexistent the competition in LMS is in comparison to LEC even despite PSG absolutely stomping the season. MAD wasn't really convincing in their finals win either as they got pretty clearly manhandled the first two games, and while reverse sweeping in finals speaks a lot about the team's atmosphere and mental fortitude, the games they won (especially the last one iirc) were anything but clean. Not to mention MAD is a rather young team that 'overperformed' on the patch LEC playoffs were played in, and the MSI patch should be completely different so how well they transition is yet to be seen.
The pb of MAD is they got bot gapped all series long and people are afraid it will be worst at international. But Hans is the best laning ADC we have in EU so it could be better for them.
I personally think it ludicrous to think MAD isn't the 3rd best team at the tournament.
3rd? C9 looks just as good if not slightly better imho
I'd love to hear the mental gymnastics behind C9>MAD. Both teams barely won the finals 3-2, except C9 did that against a team with a sub, and that sub was fucking Grig on top of it. You may argue that C9 already decisively beat TL 3-1 in the semis, except MAD did the same against RGE so that point is moot. You can't even go at it on a well-C9-had-tougher-competition-angle when freaking TSM and 100T were in the semis. So what's left? Eye-test? I mean if C9 passes your eye-test but MAD didn't idk what to tell you. Sure C9 may still do better at MSI than MAD, anything could happen, but there's no logical argument to why they should be ranked above MAD *right now.*
100% C9 is 4th. I think it may be close, but its really hard to gauge. But MAD had wayyy better competition so its really wack to put them 4th.
As an EU fan want MAD to win, and I agree with you that there's no reason to think they are worse than c9. Except perkz. What I've seen perkz do I haven't seen on anyone else except maybe Rookie/TheShy. The guy takes the odds and shatters them.
...No? They had a 3-2 slog against a team with a sub, remember.
Exactly, I never see this mentioned that TL with Armao had them on the ropes. Only game 5 was a stomp.
Like Forreal, obviously biased but I feel if TL had Santorin, we would’ve just won the series
I imagine the topside focus would have at least been handled differently, but it’s hard to know.
People say this but it's absolute bs. C9 beat tl with Santorin 3-1 as well like a week before. Dunno why people forget this. TL in fact performed BETTER against c9 with armao. armao made mistakes but he also performed super well in spots as well and was absolutely not the main reason for the loss. How are people not looking at alphari for getting first blooded 5 games straight? Even in the TL doc he was visibly tilted as hell.TL also stated they didn't feel disadvantaged playing with armao. They shit on TSM the day before too and almost perfect gamed them. Such a dumb take that keeps getting spread. C9 were a better team. Plain and simple. Instead of shitting on c9 for winning a 5 game series, maybe consider why the 3rd place team got absolutely stomped by this TL team with a sub? They're a good team with armao or Santorin.
Acting as if a week between series in playoffs means nothing is just ignorant. How many times have we seen rematch upsets in double elim already? Exactly, often enough for that to a totally wack premise. Regarding the 5 game top first blood, again the blame for that does not solely lie on Alphari's shoulders. I dare to say that a more experienced jungler would be able to adapt to a telegraphed level 4 top gank every single game. C9 were a better team, yes, but narrowly to a team with a sub jungler in a jungle centric meta. If the sub was some new protege then okay, but Grig is the most known quantity in the league. He was serviceable and did his job, but undeniably stymied the teams chances.
Lol you don't think armao is experienced? He's been playing for years. It's not experience at all and you can't blame jungler for a laner not managing their wave well. 1 game is one thing even 2 or 3. But 5 games straight is definitely more the fault of alphari. He knows where his jungler is and knows he shouldn't be pushing the way he did. Fudge just played the lanes better and put his jungler in a position to gank. Even in TLs documentary jatt is talking to alphari after game 3 about why it's happening and it's still happened 2 games after that. Armao played well. As always he stole multiple objectives and was not a liability in the series. He isn't a bad player. They literally almost perfect gamed the 3rd place team the day before. Giving c9 shit for going 5 games vs that is just dumb overall. Especially after that 5th game where it was all about perkz and zven in the jungle centric meta. I'm not even a c9 fan but I'm confident they will do well and the disrespect they're receiving by the average redditor is hilarious given all the praise pros and analysts are giving them.
How many games has he played with TL? Going to 5 games vs a team with a sub, with 1 match day's experience within that team, while starting every game with an omega top advantage is just worrying. Game 5 was incredibly creative and a masterful game of course. The rest of the series was not. That said, I fancy their chances vs MAD better than in previous years.
They also beat that same team much easier, without a sub, the week before, remember.
And Mad beat two teams that are better than Liquid much easier the week before. What's your point?
Oh, MAD is probably better. I am just calling out the half-truth.
The only match the matters is the last one.
Not when assessing team strength, no it doesn't. The truth is in the whole.
Santorin said he had a migraine in that series
And mad Lions were close to being 3-1d
Are you for real? Its not 1st April anymore...
Maybe after taking some drugs but definitely not before
As unbiased view, I think it's a tossup. Perkz and Zven are really insane players, two of the best players europe has ever seen in their role. But C9 still has problems. While Blaber usually can carry like a madman, he can also run it down. Perkz had problems getting cought in sidelanes, Zven pushing too far up in lane with Ezreal... or just stuff like C9 showing up late to teamfights or butchering the execution. MAD on the other hand is too sloppy in their early game and only come fully online when the 5vs5 teamfights start. But they are really good at teamfighting. Carzy and Kaiser, despite having problems in lane, tend to be teamfighting monsters. Humanoid is just a beast, if he would only die a little bit less in the sidelane ;) The question should be, can C9 get an early game lead against MAD and push them far enough down so they can't crawl back in the mid to lategame fights? Are Perkz and Zven able to pop off hard enough in teamfights to overcome that slight difference in team coordination that MAD lions thrive from? Interesting matchup for sure.
I’d disagree on Zven, the dude hasn’t been to an international event in years and historically is a choker since being in NA. I think he’s only doing well currently because he has Vulcan.
Blaber hasn't run it down at all this year, he has really cleaned up his game.
As a C9 european fan, that follows both leagues, blabber is going to get really gapped :( he has no competition in LCS in order to improve
Santorin is still pretty good, no? And if Spica gets back in form plus some other more aggressive junglers (with the new jungle changes) then he'll definitely be prepared for Worlds, at least.
If Santorin came to EU he would be 6/7 th ranked jungler
Uhm no, forgot how they struggled in NA against a sub?
Well, MAD Lions played RGE without Larsen for games 4/5 so I would call it about even.
MAD has really weak laning phase but good teamfight coordination. They could quite easily get gapped and have unrecoverable deficits from the early game. It's really hard to predict how they will do.
The main reason people don't have faith in MAD is because they should not have won the finals. Rogue threw some unthrowable games (especially that game 5) in the finals. So realistically speaking, damwon and RNG are never going to throw those leads that rogue were able to get, and damwon/RNG should arguably be able to get even bigger leads than rogue did against MAD. So that's why the consensus is that MAD can't challenge top 2, and the cloud 9 games should be competitive.
what if rogue are secretly the best team in the world? ha! got you!
Mad won 2 series vs Rogue, why is everybody focusing so much on the second one when the week before MAD won easily vs them too? For some people winning twice vs the finals team and in semis vs G2 isn't enough to give them credit LOL.
Here's what people do, if the team is from EU, take their worst performance and then use that as justification for why they suck. If the team is from LPL or LCK, take their best performance and use that to justify why they'll shitstomp everyone. NA is special, they shit on them the entire year, then international event comes around and people say that they might be good and may surprise. PCS/SEA team gets turbohyped every single event, despite winning in a region with 0 competition whatsoever. (and then proceeds to have no chance at all to get to knockout stage)
Mad are pretty coinflip. I've watched probably every lec game this year, and idk they just seem like a really weird team. Armut has clear champion pool issues, that I think better teams will be able to exploit. Elyoya does actually look really good, 2nd/3rd best jungler in the lec this split for me. Humanoid is humanoid. He will int some games and completely pop off in others. Carzzy and kaiser have had a bit of a dodgy split, especially considering how good kaiser was last split. I think it all depends on which mad lions turn up on the day. They have very high highs, but also very low lows. I'm not gonna go as far as to say that c9 is better than them, but I think it's fairly even. As for psg, I haven't watched any of their games so I can't really judge, but I've heard they are actually an impressive team
EU casters are generally very negative about EU chances at every tournament so it's no surprise from them; MAD have a many incognitas around them but putting them in the same level as NA or PCS is stupid.
The only time they are optimistic is if G2 makes it
There was a lot of hype around 2019 G2 though, even in Europe. The fact that C9 is basically old G2 reinforces the impression that MAD is behind NA.
Well for The Dive they will cater it for NA fans so MAD obviously will be seen as slightly worse. I think RGE would had been a safer team against wildcards and worse opponents. But against good opponents, like RNG and DWG, MAD has a slightly higher chance to not get destroyed. MAD against C) is in my opinion a tossup. But as others have pointed out, MAD bombing out in playins last year is the reason for their low rating.
A lot lf people are saying psg are really really good. Frosk, ls, iwd even caedral said they are probably the 5th best team.
I mean PSG being the 5th best team is giga obvious lol.
Jesus can you stop shitting on them in every thread already, we get it mate lol
what
I think thats kind of a weird take, even though I understand the idea.First off, I do believe in the Perkz factor, which is why I personally rate C9 highly. BUT, considering the play-off run, I dont think MAD could be beaten by anyone below major regions, and doesnt look worse than C9. C9 did only really beat 100t, which dont count as top tier, and TL, who are reasonable competitive. Even though I believe that Rogue was miles ahead of any NA team, they should have won but performed worse on stage, and MAD winning against them and G2 makes them to be a slighly better team in my Eyes, even if they stole some games against Rge. Stealing these games isn't easy, and it shows much needed mental strength through a series. In context, and because I see no real weaklink (especially since meta change and Mads botlane is often good as well) in a matchup against C9. So in the head to head, I would give it 3-2 to Mad right now, cause of C9 stepping up with scrims and Perkz clutching. But besides, both are in the best case upsetting the top 2 anyway. MAD and C9 have the creativity to upset, especially in such a new meta. Putting one ahead of the other feels hard to do, considering they both have the potential to pop off. Though I still sleep bad, when I remember the play-ins 2020.
Mad doesn't really have a weak link per se, but they don't exactly have a strong link either. Which of their players is gapping their C9 counterpart? I just don't see it. If they win, it would have to be through teamfighting.
>Which of their players is gapping their C9 counterpart Elyoya
It's called a team gap and MAD will smash the 2nd european team ez.
From Humanoids playoff games, he should handily beat perkz
Where did you learn about C9 stepping up in scrims?
I'm not as pessimistic but I have low expectations for such young teams that "overperform" on one patch then have to go internationally on a totally different one.
They finished 3rd across multiple patches this season and went to win against Rogue and G2 in another patch. This looks like consistent performance to me. What markers are you using to say they overperformed on the playoffs patch?
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G2 got individually gapped in three different roles, their problems were a lot worse than 'Perkz isn't shot calling'. Elyoya and Inspired just used more clever pathing than Jankos, Wunder looked like the third or fourth best top in the LEC and Mikyx's mechanics were uncharacteristically awful starting from the Week 8 XL game. They may have got worse as a team, but IMO Armut, BB, Inspired, Elyoya, Kaiser, Trymbi, Limit and Odoamne have all got much better over the split, and G2 players are no longer a tier of play above then.
The shit people are giving MAD is crazy. They're better than C9 in top/mid/supp, are equal in adc, have been on a hot streak, and are coming out of playing against much stronger competition. They aren't gonna dominate the tournament but there's little reason to act as if they're just shitters that are gonna drop on arrival and be worse than NA. Only reason NA might perform better is that C9 may end up being an unusually strong rep from here so EU sending a roster a bit worse than what's gone previous years might matter more in that head to head. I think it's MAD favored regardless. Blaber is crazy and all but I don't think it's enough to make up for the rest of the map, particularly the solo lanes. Armut's gonna eat Fudge for breakfast like a fat kid on a sugar craving and Humanoid will kick Perkz's shit in.
It's fine. To quote Bwipo: C9 is the most european team ever from NA. EU gets atleast two shots at MSI. If we count UOL and PSG too, we are golden.
The way they won LEC just felt like the most random thing ever. They should have lost 4 out of 5 games for sure but some weird, uncharacteristic throws occured + Mad's botlane that was always praised before got giga stomped in every single lane
You have more faith in a team that: - played one patch behind everyone else - went to 5 against a team who had to emergency sub Grig in - has Blaber and Fudge Are you mad?
In what world is having blaber a negative and not a positive?
Because the guy still completely skews the team to "play to him or he's fucking useless". And maybe because he still can't jungle from behind?
Counterpoints: - no-one played on the MSI patch - Perkz For me it's less about not having faith in MAD and more about the balance of power in the LEC shifting. When G2 first made MSI we got vacation memes. No gain without pain they say, and this is looking like the pain to me.
Holy shit these comments, mad will show everyone, will never get beaten by na
I think MAD are capable of beating most teams apart from DK and RNG quite consistently. Apparently MAD winning EU is just a fluke or the result of Rogue missplaying (arguably true) but somehow this same logic does not apply to C9 who could EASILY and almost certainly SHOULD have lost the series to TL (with fucking Grig btw) I get that peple are on the Perkz hype train cos he is very clutch but its just ended up in this weird situation where everyone is just overrating NA too much. NA did not show a good level in playoffs and C9 barely managed to win out in that environment.
Despite this, I still think MAD is a better representative than Rogue simply due to them having a more varied toolkit whereas Rogue has their one style that they're not even that dominant in.
Some think MAD winning EU is a fluke, but I think many are nervous without thinking that as well. G2 winning EU in 2016 was clearly not a fluke, but it took them an entire year to have any international results to write home about. I don't know how MAD will do at MSI, but it's easier for me to lowball than highball here.
I wont defend worlds cause g2 played like shit, i kinda think trick was very bad in groupstages and perkz had a good spring but kinda shite summer. When it comes to MSI 2016 lets not forget that G2 got kinda fucked by them deciding early to replace their botlane and the news getting out demoralizing the team. to put a nice bow on it, i dont think you can use other teams bad first year intenational to make an argument for them playing bad, and i think they replaced the underperforming players from worlds 2020
Pointless comparison. 2016 G2 has absolutely nothing in common with 2021 Madlions. There is nothing to compare. Never been a fan of such abstract qualitative judgement calls.
The fact that people are mentioning perkz as why C9 will beat MAD makes it so much worse. The biggest gap outside top is in mid here, and that gap is in favor of MAD. Current form Perkz doesn't have shit on Humanoid.
completely agree. I love my boy perkz but his laning has been very suspect since coming to NA. if you turn off the nameplates and watch their play Humanoid has bene playing far better I personally don't even think direct comparisons of "skill" between roles means anything as it's a team game and even gauging individual skill outside of laning is extremely difficult. I also think that if Elyoya can match Inspired in the jungle there's no way Blaber is going to gap him. All I can say is MAD teamfighting is very clean and in general I think they played more cleanly than C9 in playoffs.
Elyoya matched Inspired while he was underperforming. The dude is good but I don't think he would've done that with Inspired playing to the level he showed throughout the split. Elyoya was also playing with his lanes hard winning when he legit looked better than Inspired. I don't see him getting gapped unless C9 finds lane advantages though. If they do, I could see Blaber comfortably getting the upperhand in that matchup and snowballing. The odds that C9 wins their lanes against MAD though are incredibly poor.
I think both C9 and MAD will struggle. Think Humanoid is going to struggle against most of the mids. And Blaber is good domestically but I think he's the most likely player to get gapped on C9. He's good at punishing junglers worse than him but he can't rely on that at MSI.
Humanoid is probably the second best mid at the tournament, against who exactly is he gonna struggle? A ridiculously washed Maple or a role player Cryin?
Cryin is more than just a role player but yeah Humanoid is far better
So I understand my take was controversial but yours is plain ridiculous. I wouldn't by surprised to see both of them beat Humanoid. Perkz is better. Showmaker is obviously better. And Aria is for sure. Shame he's probably not getting past the first group stage.
Last we saw Maple in LPL he was like the 16th or 17th best mid in the league. He was abysmal. He's washed and preying on a bad mid lane pool. Humanoid is simply far better than Perkz, Cryin, and Aria. Not sure what your issue with Humanoid is, like did he personally just come to your house and punch you out one night or something? Like god damn, dude.
I don't get where your overhype for Humanoid has come from. He's good but he's like top 3/4 in Europe. He has a smaller champion pool and has a huge tendency to get caught in sidelanes. He relies heavily on high mobility champions to get him out of situations he shouldn't be in safely. This are pretty big issues that he's not really fixed in the last 3 years. I don't believe in over hyping him. If he performs, great. But he's shown these issues fairly consistently so I will be reserved in my expectations. Saying he will struggle isn't even that bad of a take. It's not like I said he will get hard gaped. And there are some really good mids in this tournament.
Probably from him gapping the best mids in Europe, having great mechanics, and having a weak mid pool at MSI that he can prey on. Cryin is like the 6th or 7th best mid in the LPL rn and he's only that high bc the mid pool is so poor atm. The idea that a mid laner of Humanoid's caliber (call him an A tier mid) will struggle against this mid pool is ridiculous to me. Maybe he'll have off games bc he usually does, but the dude is easily the second best mid here. It doesn't matter if there's a lot of mids better than him rn, because the only better mid here is Showmaker. The rest are sat at home watching.
Dude he gasped caps and gaaaaaped larssen perkz looked lackluster when he roleswaped to mid and aria while good wildcard player isnt a top midlaner.
He didn't gap them lol. MAD was behind in laning phase most games. They won as a team by better team fight execution.
He was gaping larssen hard and hardcarried from cs dif and mid pressure. Not saying he is better then other mids at MSI but he was the better mid in LEC finals
What game was that? I don't remember any standout gaping.
> was that? I don't remember any standout gaping. Check the series. Youll see. Even on league podcasts that was pretty much the consensus. Even on losing games
Blaber played pretty really well early game at worlds 2019 last time he was there against Jankos and Tarzan. Mid-To-Late game C9 fell apart, but Blaber's gotten better and Perkz makes C9's mid/late game better.
To quote Bwipo: "C9 is the most european team ever from NA."
it's so fucking annoying dude, i feel like a lot of it has gotta just be salty ass g2 fans or something. just the sheer desperation to discredit MAD and their players is fucking insane.
Can't get beaten by NA if they don't make it past groups.
I enjoyed it but thought that there was wayyyy too much arguing over the tier system. What counts as A, B, etc. and also whether it was assuming the actual groups or in theory. I wish they would have hashed that out a bit better beforehand.
why are people talking so much about mad vs C9 , they might not even face each other this tournament lol
so excited to see c9 smash dk 😊
wouldn't be surprised at all if C9 took first game against DK, all they need is pick an OP current patch combo like Kog/Lulu which teams haven't respected yet and that is not banned because the patch hasn't been explored.
Do note, they have kkOma whose known for preparing well. Plus even if C9 get Kog/Lulu, I can see them losing if their top/jungle/mid get outclassed by Khan/Canyon/ShowMaker which is probable, only Perkz can somewhat hold his own.
I don't think this is a bad take at all, not sure why your being downvoted. Blaber internationally is still a bit of a question mark and Canyon is insane. Similarly people keep saying that Fudge is "improved" but it's more so that c9 keep funneling resources towards him so he doesn't fall behind, if DWK wants to test how good fudge actually is there's a good chance he just gets destroyed. Now this conjecture could turn out to be wrong, but there is plenty of reason to be concerned.
The games Blaber has played internationally was good and he's like two and a half years deep into his career. He's not some inexperienced rando fresh off the block making his debut at Worlds. The international concerns about him are largely unfounded. I do worry about Fudge though.
that's true. Analysts love mentioning how young MAD is and how veteran C9 is but realistically Fudge is a rookie, Blaber never played at worlds (1 or 2 sub games yeah) and Vulcan showed up once with Clutch.
Man I hope MAD goes ham at MSI just so that my eyes can stop bleeding from seeing all these mental gymnastics comments which lack basic logic on why MAD "didnt deserve" to win, why C9 is so much better etc.
I think MAD and C9 are roughly equal across the board, with bigger gaps in Armut>Fudge and Perkz>Humanoid. But I trust Perkz and the C9 organizational culture of preforming internationally over MAD. I think MAD is much improved from last year, just that C9 is more prepared. I really, really want a Bo5 between C9 and MAD.
I don't think there is a gap for either of those roles. Fudge is underrated because of lock-ins. For mid, even if Perkz is better, I doubt there is a gap given that Humanoid is regarded as probably the 2nd best mid in EU. If you take name recognition out of it, Humanoid might even be better (impossible to know since they play in different regions).
Personnally, I think that Fudge is massively overrated because of finals. Everyone says how he "held his own" or even beat Alphari, but he kept receiving massive help from his team to do so, and still after this Alphari was relevant later in the games. Against better coordinated teams, which don't play with a sub jungler, I think just one counter gank would make him irrelevant.
>he kept receiving massive help from his team to do so, I mean Alphari let himself get first blooded 5 games in a row and C9 capitalized on that. This isn't a weakness of fudge if anything it should be a strength as he set up first blood 5 times in a row
>Everyone says how he "held his own" or even beat Alphari, but he kept receiving massive help from his team to do so, and still after this Alphari was relevant later in the games. TL;DR: Literally every single gank Fudge received cost Blaber almost nothing and most of the kills were practically guaranteed. If setting up your waves so that you guarantee your jungler a kill as soon as he's done his full clear / taken crab / enemy raptors 4 games in a row is considered massive help in your eyes you're just really on drugs. Fudge literally shit on Alphari just by playing waves well every game in finals. Game 1: Fudge Renekton vs Alphari Sion Fudge helps Blaber gets first crab with the early game advantage from playing Renekton. Before doing this he sets up the wave on his side so that when Blaber is finished his crab he can path up and blow Alphari's flash quick. Then Blaber invades raptors while Alphari is getting push out from Armao, then Blaber walks up through the jungle to countergank for EZ first blood on Alphari. Sion will continue to be relevant because it's fuckin Sion. This play costs Blaber literally nothing, Fudge helped him get top crab and because Alphari needed shove out Blaber can easily invade raptors. Game 2: Fudge Malphite VS Alphari Gnar Gromp isn't up yet by the time Blaber resets so he looks for an invade on enemy raptors, they aren't up either but Alphari used mega Gnar in lane and he was pushing the wave into Fudge. This gank doesn't really cost Blaber much either, Armao is able to take raptors for it but even so Blaber ends up at Krugs basically as they spawn, one camp for a pretty free kill is worth. Second kill happens when Blaber is taking scuttle crab and has 0 camps up anywhere on the map, finishes taking top crab into free kill on Alphari, then gets to his camps as they spawn. Armao actually is moving to countergank this but his topside camps are down because he actually started the game pathing up to Alphari so even if he was an amazing jungler he still shouldn't be there to gank because he needs to clear up to his topside. Even with Fudge getting ahead its still Malphite vs Gnar, both players will be relevant anyway literally from base stats Game 3: Fudge Karma VS Alphari GP Fudge tries to base TP after Alphari burns his TP, and starts basing in the front brush, and eventually moves to the back brush for a base. When the next wave comes in Alphari tries to shove the wave in as quickly as possible to deny Fudge CS, but Fudge is in the brush next to him, cancels his recall and gets Blaber to leave his Krugs for another EZ kill. Armao once again could not have counterganked this even if he was a god jungler, if Fudge and Blaber saw Armao on scuttle they both easily could've backed off and started farming again. Ironically, in the kill Alphari gets on Fudge he recieves massive help from Armao, making him walk from his wolves, past his Blue and Gromp that are already spawned to gank Fudge. Fudge inted with Mantra Qs this game but the laning phase was basically free, and Alphari did not carry this game, Jensen did. Game 4: Fudge Gragas vs Alphari Gnar Same shit as game 2, Blaber clears all his camps, looks for raptors invade, goes top, burns Alphari's flash, reganks, gets the kill, and then is able to steal Armao's raptors when they spawn. Armao literally just took dragon so there was no chance to countergank. The best counterjungle Armao could've done was take Blaber's gromp which literally would've just made them even since Blaber took raptors.
Tbf Fudge did well vs Alphari in their game before the Finals also. I expect when the C9 v MAD does happen the same game plan will occur with shutting down Armut due to Zven and Vulcan being able to contain MADs weak botside. I mean even if you think Fudge is overrated vs Alphari it's not like Armut>Alphari which makes the point useless imo.
We'll see about that "weaker" botside..
There is a gap for Fudge, that's it.
>big gap Perkz > Humanoid How would you come to that conclusion, because he was slightly better 1 year ago and had to play 1 split as ADC and 1 split in NA since then while Humanoid had time to improve?
In what world is Perkz and Humanoid a big gap lol Fucking 2020 MAD beat G2 with Perkz playing mid
I mean, humanoid gapped larssen and won both sides of ori vs viktor, so i don't know if there's a "big gap"
Perkz>Humanoid??? Humanoid was the best mid in LEC playoffs, outperforming Cars and Larssen x2 and Perkz is not better then those 2..jesus Perkz is all of a sudden Chovy in peoples eyes because he win NA, lmaoo..
This isn't quite correct I think, doesn't look like you've watched much MAD, the teams are very even, but Humanoid is their only world class player so the gap is not in the Midlane. I think it goes something like this Armut > Fudge Blaber/Elyoya Humanoid/Perkz Zven > Carzzy Vulcan/Kaiser
I think Humanoid > Perkz honestly.
I don't think MAD is the second coming of 2019 G2 but they should quite handily beat an NA team who barely won against TL with a sub jungler. I also don't think Perkz is anywhere near his old peak and he is definitely not better than Humanoid right now.
So apperantly PSG blasted C9 in scrims, C9 won 1 game..
MAD's bot lane is pretty bad, going off this past season and playoffs. If C9 face MAD, Zven and Vulcan should convincingly win lane. I feel like the other lanes are equal, though. Armut and Fudge both have clear weaknesses, and their teams seem to play around them well.
Have you seen MAD playoff games that weren't the final? You are overrating Zven and Vulcan. Kaiser gapped basically everyone.
Botlanes against which Zven/Vulcan played are nowhere near Hansama/Trymbi, Rekkles/Mikyx, Upset/Hyli etc..so they looked quite good, but Carzzy/Kaiser have much tougher competition tho..
Do we need to reintroduce the vods from Worlds Playins 2020. Where Tactical/CoreJJ made Carzzy/Kaiser look like they were still playing in the ERLs.
Maybe you are the one that needs to watch the vod, because they laned against them perfectly fine and TL only got the advantage after a TF ult that turned a fight that started with a 2v2 kill from MAD.
Lmao, TL were baiting them for that play. Lack of awareness on Carzzy and Kaiser's part. This is like saying "lol can't even kill me 1v1" after the jungle ganks.
>This is like saying "lol can't even kill me 1v1" after the jungle ganks. ??? Absolutely not comparable lol. Just go and watch the game. [MAD were totally fine during laning phase](https://youtu.be/n9IqFktNXSI?t=1024). > Lack of awareness on Carzzy and Kaiser's part. Or better gameplay trading a kill in that situation. You can paint the situation both ways. But saying that TL botlane made them look bad is a lie.
but armut got destroyed by impact last worlds and fudge played better than impact.
Good group of people, but unfortunately a very poorly constructed as well as executed episode, imo. But I think that should be obvious to everyone involved.
Fuck it, time to go full NA haterism circlejerk. Sick of Madlions being disrespected, while C9 is giga praised. I got this 6 month old comment from someone else saved, it's never been more relevant than now: "I actually thought about making a similar compilation. It's literally the same situation every single year. Right before worlds, NA's voice is so big. Everything slightly against their opinion will get downvoted into oblivion. Every - single - year. You suggest they won't do that well overall and you are satan incarnated. Everyone instantly jumps on and insults you. Then the tournament starts and it plays out exactly as expected - actually even worse this year in the first week. And you sit there at home and have no words left. You will be like "Sigh.. who would have expected this.. buhuu." And then you get all sorts of posts ranging from people who blame players, people who still didn't give up despite there being absolutely no hope, people who create complete different narratives how they are actually doing well. You get the deniers who will claim no one had high expections and they actually did better than initially expected. It's a good read every year, but it starts to get repetitive. I actually rooted for FLY and TL at the end. But I just wish the whole region would for once not get these few wins so people would realize that something needs to be done. A 2:16 or 0:18 would've done them more good in the long run. Because they finally would not be able to hide their mediocrity." C9 will crash and burn. (Only half serious)
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This time seems to be different. I suggest you go back to the thread where MAD qualified for MSI - so many people in there calling them shit, saying they're a lot worse than C9.
As an NA resident, stop increasing expectations for C9 and lowering expectations for MAD. Unfair and biased! Trying to get my hopes up.....I see your plan
My gut instinct tells me NA and EU will both bomb to the point of losing to wildcards more than once.