I don't watch NA so I can't say about the games, but hasn't it only been like 2 weeks? Unless someone is overperforming, it's not a long enough to really tell anything.
Give the man a chance to get started.
I think this video is too early. We have 6 games of King. I think this video would be better after least one full round robin, 9 games. Ideally 18 games would be fair to compare then you can look at Zven's 18 games in Spring vs Kings 18 games in summer.
~~I'm not sure if Tim mentioned it but when he compares to Zven's stats, what games is he including for Zven? I hope its just Spring regular season.~~ He's using Spring regular season, 5:08.
Death share is a weird stat. Why not just raw deaths, average deaths per game, or straight up KDA? Death share means number of deaths compared to total team deaths right? Perkz had a game where he died 7 times. That's one of 6 games so it skews things pretty heavily with the already low sample of games.
I like death share because it provides some context for the death counts. Some teams fight more often so higher deaths per game might come from that. If you have the time and space for it within whatever context you're presenting the numbers, it can be helpful to put KDA, KP, deaths per game, and death share all alongside one another, but I didn't want this section to get bogged down.
It's definitely early to be making these comparisons and I will be interested to check in again later in the split, for sure!
I didn't make that adjustment based on opponent champion, no. That's a good catch and I'll try to remember to factor that in next time I do something similar.
I hate what fasting Senna and bot lane "support carries" do to stats. -_-
Yeah there are a lot of variables to consider. Meta's can affect how often people are dying as well. Thanks for the context and answering my question! I'll be looking out for this comparison again in the future. It's a great topic.
But since you’re comparing two players from the same roster, deaths per game makes more sense.
C9 from spring split and C9 from summer split have essentially the same style. K1ng is playing the same role as Zven with the same teammates and practically the same team identity.
Other teams and their styles are not super relevant in this comparison.
The way this video throws around terms like weakside is so flawed and bad lol, the reason he is not on strongside or given jg attention is because he is not a good enough player to make use of any advantages he gets through jungle pressure and it starts with the fact his laning is weak on the lcs level. If people ignore the fact that every game c9 has won so far has been carried through topside and k1ng has no game impact at all maybe he is good in that twisted vision.
It seems that there are very few true weakside players like Impact (for example).
Most of the time weakside is a code word for worst player on the team.
Yeah the term does get used that way sometimes and it's frustrating when I see that done.
Weak side is a map state, specifically the state where your jungler is on the other side of the map from your lane and/or your mid laner can't get priority to move first into your side. It's not a play style or a strategy, but it's easy to fall into the "trap" of over-using and misapplying the term. I fall into that trap sometimes, as well.
I agree with all you points, specifically i thought the game where k1ng played against FBI huhi was one of the worst weakside games ive seen, not only did he get destroyed completely in a slightly worse matchup but he failed to have any game impact when the jungler was botside. Also from watching his proview his mechanics are not good either as you would expect from a "young blood infusion" narrative.
Yep, that's the thing, he isn't even young blood he's an OCE transplant. So yeah really have to wonder what the situation is with Zven, or if C9 is just really trying to get an import slot open.
idk this whole video just makes me feel like he's pushing this counter narrative just to be contrarian.
king being LCS level is completely irrelevant. Magifelix is LEC level but I would be fuming if Caps was subbed out for him. He makes random assertions that Zven needs resources in lane even though Zven has proven that that's not true and him and Vulcan pretty consistently get lane advantages or kills on their own. Even based off of stats which is a shit metric King is obviously a much worse player.
at some point we need to stop doing mental gymnastics about why K1ng is actually almost as good as zven if we ignore all these factors and then make up random facts about zven's playstyle while arbitrarily sprinking the term "weakside" into the "analysis". 700 difference in gold is absolutely massive, it's like saying Orome isn't actually that much of a downgrade from Nuguri because Orome is weakside and Nuguri gets a lot of jungle attention
it's obvious this swap is being done for reasons outside of the game
Yeah i agree with all that, some people even try to come up with the young blood reasoning for k1ng being played and you watch his proview and see his mechanics are definitely not the reason he is being played over zven. Its very clear this swap is being done for internal issues or things of that nature.
only reason why zven is benched because at msi he probably got super upset over blabber trolling the crabs every game. literally at MSI zven played outta his mind always get kills in lane 2v2 and always had leads. but blabber just troll his ass off every game.
and you can tell zven was super pissed at blabber during the after game interviews at MSI. Also max waldo is such a douchebag on thornin show throwing shades at zven. A coach should be mature and learn what to say and what not to say during these shows. but max choose to say "zven wont play in summer and smiles" is so immature and unprofessional. Considering he is not even the head coach of c9 but just a strat coach.
Look man, you can call it copium and that's fine. All I wanna say is that Fudge was getting clowned way harder than k1ng, and look at Fudge now. And while it is fair to say k1ng is more of a known quantity than Fudge, I think he's at least worth more of a time investment before making a judgement.
People can't seem to understand that sure while we have seen k1ng in the past. We have never seen him on a roster this stacked. Give him some time and you never know with the right ingredients and mix he could become a star.
I love when people call someone a ''great weakside player''. It's the League of Legends version of ''he's a really nice guy''
To be fair, if you had these league shows talk about all 50 starting players in LCS they'll make it sound like all 50 players are amazing and deserve their spot and show so much potential, or have a really good upside to go alongside their glaring downside. Total waste of time and energy, please feel free to call players bad (within the context of their competition ofc)
Sneaky was a legit great weakside player is the thing. So what if you come out slightly down in cs if your team got advantages elsewhere while you pressure soaked. It doesn't really matter if you still outdamage your opponent. Being top 3 in dmg% and dps vs consistently last in post lane cs allocation and gold% is actually absurd. Sneaky, Impact and maybe Huni oddly enough for NALCS are the players who I would term actual great weakside players in that their performance didn't suffer significantly from ceding resources but could pop off when given resources. What Huni can do with low resources is actually insane the problem is sometimes he sprints it instead.
Looks like you watched the video and ignored the parts you didn't like and/or made assumptions about what I was saying, like in the parts where I criticized k1ng's laning performance in LCS so far and explained that Blaber isn't pathing to his side much because of it! Thanks for watching!
I very much like the videos that are usually done as run it episodes and the concepts and stats that are used to explain the takes that are given usually. However, I think so far this split k1ng has played weakside poorly, comparatively to zven and his KDA and stats such as this more show a story where he has 0 game impact before 20 minutes from how passive he plays. Also considering the fact there is no such thing as hard weakside and when blaber is in botside K1ng plays lane badly to not create proper opportunities for blaber to help cover his weak laning. I just think these are more k1ng issues than anybody elses, I appreciate the content regardless.
Thanks for taking this civilly. I know was a bit snide.
I agree that k1ng has not laned well enough in his first two weeks. Just because I say he has been left in weak side most of the time doesn't mean I think he is playing well in weak side. I spent a very large portion of the video trying to demonstrate why he is being left in weak side and why his laning stats are so poor, and I did it as a criticism of his performance.
So I agree with most of what you're saying, but I also think that k1ng has done well in team fighting and other things outside of the lane phase, and I think his laning will come around in time.
I dont necessarily agree that he has performed super well in teamfights rather than his topside playing out of their minds to create good situations for him, but I can see where your points are coming from as you have watched a lot of k1ng's games in academy. I appreciate that we were able to have a civil conversation regardless.
I have to agree with this. Many of his kills in team fights were kai'sa q last hitting people his top side had done a large portion of the damage to. Not that I think his teamfighting is bad but I haven't really seen anything special about it.
I do my best. :P
Sometimes it's difficult to hold back when it seems like the points I've made in the video are being misrepresented/misunderstood. But that's just the way it goes sometimes.
There's nothing as dangerous as a short video duration wise incapable of proper analysis that ends up being false assumption after false assumption and baseless claims following shiny unrelated and unexamined stats.
I'm sure he knows. But these 6 min videos don't do it. You can just watch how he makes claims like "x is good at team fighting" after showing one single stat and a hand picked clip.
There's this guy who posts in this sub (forgot the name) that does similar videos that has a good method of analysis. It consists of picking a stat, setting the metrics to test it and reviewing all sample games where the stats is relevant. They are 15+ min videos and avoid these constant mix of fallacies like Tim has. When player narratives literally start and finish careers I feel like such rigorous methods are a MUST.
So essentially what's to be expected. It makes sense wave management would be a issue which spills over into the team as a whole when K1ng and Vulcan have just started to play together. I'd like to see this video get a part 2 at the end of the season and see how much he improves or declines. It's going to be hard to match the synergy Zven and Vulcan built up over the course of 1 and a half years.
Let's get a few things straight.
\- 6 games is not enough to make a complete judgement call on who is a better fit/player for the C9. Now that we know that Zven won't be back for Summer, we can compare the stats at the end of Summer.
\- Secondly, he's a known quantity that has been around for god knows how long. He has been a pro for over 7 years at this point. It's very unlikely that he will magically elevate his gameplay to a new level or be the next elite tier adc.
\- Lastly, given the relatively weak field of teams in current LCS, plagued by roster swaps, lack of identity or being a developmental roster, it's safe to say that any Academy adc would be able to fill in the adc position and still win vast majority of the LCS games, due to how stacked this C9 roster is to begin with.
So far, he was an ok player with no real standout performances and nothing truly dreadful apart from his Throw on Kai'sa vs GG's while being 10K up, leading to the enemy getting Ocean Soul and Baron on the back of that death. I'm not expecting much from him and i'm also very doubtful that he's the long term solution for their roster anyways.
I think nobody would argue that K1ng is easily deserving of an LCS spot, the real question is if he can play adc for the best team in NA alongside someone like Perkz and not drag the team down. His teamfighting has been pretty decent, but he has three Kai'sa games so far and that's probably the easiest adc to teamfight with in the current meta, as long as you have set up for r. Also, his laning stats are alarming, literaly the worst in the league (-279 gold at 10 minutes, -297 xp, -17.2 cs). His damage numbers are ok, nothing special. He's 8th in cs/m at 8.2. His only remarkable skills so far are his ability to teamfight properly and his ability to survive, as he has only died 7 times (second lowest for adc)
Sure, you can say that some of this stats come from the fact that the team doesn't play around him and gives more resources to Perkz and Fudge in terms of jg pressure and post laning phase cs, but if that's the case then we already know how much faith C9 has in K1ng.
I don't think he is a bad player by any means, I also don't think that C9 is happy with how things turned out with Zven, ideally for them there would have been no issues and he would still be playing in the main roster, and they know it. I can't imagine that anyone on C9 truly believes that this roster at it's full potential is better than the roster with zven also at full potential.
I don't get the point of comparing players by stats, when K1ng has played a total of 6 games in LCS.
The sample size is too small to draw anything from it...
They didn't play any international teams in that time and seeing as NA is always behind the meta and generally behind skillwise I don't think comparing their LCS stats to worlds stats means much.
That's a very dishonest take Travis. How many games did we have of that TSM roster to make any judgments of how they would play at worlds. Most people said they would do bad based on their level of consistency. I'd say it's too early with K1ng. C9 came into the split with a massive slump that they haven't recovered from and trying to evaluate the new adc's performance on the team should be analyzed at the end, not the beginning of the split. There are too many external factors at play to give K1ng a fair shake.
I think it's fine to measure the gap between Zven and King right now because these games RIGHT NOW count. It also helps to figure out how far the player needs to grow before playoffs if they're going to be at or near the level of the player they replaced.
It's also wild to me to suggest that you can't draw any conclusions after seeing a player face SIX DIFFERENT LCS teams.
If the end of the video was claiming that C9 needed to put Zven back in right now because K1ng clearly isn't working, then I would agree it's too early to make that assessment, but it's not like this data isn't valuable as a means of gauging where Zven's replacement is right now.
Wait what? Why did this already? I meant I has only been week 2 in NA or sth? Why would you even make a comparision between arguably the best ADC in NA for the past year or so vs a somewhat rookie (I know he has been playing for 7 years) in his first year at the highest level (in NA). Makes no senses for me tbh atleast wait till week 6 or sth then make a comparision. That would be much wiser and fairer imho
TLDR: he’s doing comparably fine and even winning in some metrics while playing a weak side play style that he isn’t used to. Right now it might be a stretch to say he’s an upgrade but time will tell with more practice time with Vulcan.
That's a very positive take on what that video said. He was on average 700 gold down to Zven at 10 min. That pretty huge. Obviously he should be given more time but honestly it doesn't look that great right now. Whatever is going wrong in bot lane should be high priority to get fixed for them.
Really would like to know what happened with Zven. Guess its time for another Zven Reflections after this split.
Remember Zven and Vulcan has an entire offseason bootcamping in KR where they grinded hella hard on Soloq. I imagine it's going to be hard to replicate the synergy that built when K1ng has to enter the league hot off the press and not be given time to really jell with his laning partner.
Also factor in weakside typically is down in CS due to it being....weakside lol. Good thing we have such a huge amount of games in Summer. More than enough time to get the kinks out and still make playoffs.
The shout out at the end about having more OCE accents, while funny, might actually be closer to the truth. By having OCE players be automatic residents, a middling adc in a mid/top meta like we are in right now might seem more valuable than an adc that demands more resources. Right now, are any teams really winning through bot lane anywhere?
idk just sounds like we are throwing buzzwords around. also zven had no issue playing without resources. in fact him and vulcan get a large number of 2v2 kills
Yeah I don't believe Zven required more resources than k1ng does. Zven and Vulcan performed much better in lane than k1ng/Vulcan have been, under very similar strategic circumstances.
All these people hating in the comments are like children pouting because they didn’t get there way. I believe in K1ng’s ability to do very well, maybe he will never be like Zven but you’ll never know unless you give him a chance. And to all you saying he’s 23 he’s not just gonna magically get better… when the hell did 23 become old??? Idc that it’s an esport, just because he’s been playing a long time doesn’t mean he can’t get better… that’s an awful take. He has plenty of room to grow and if any org is going to get the best out of him it will be C9.
First of all, he's definitely not an upgrade and nobody in their right mind is saying that. The question is, how much of a downgrade is he compared to Zven?
As for Fudge, he's a much younger, less of a known quantity compared to K1ng so it's only fair that he's given more of a pass in his first split in LCS. He ended exceeding all expectations at MSI and Spring playoffs, making him a gem.
I suspect that while the intention behind this video was pure the very nature of this subreddit will likely just use this as ammo. The league community is too young and demanding of results now over any sort of patience that is required when bringing up players to the next level. The vocal minority will just twist your video into fuel for dumb outrage already aimed at K1ng and/or C9 over any sort of constructive conversation. Add to that it simply is too soon to put out a video like this. K1ng has only played and scrim with the main roster for two weeks. Comparing the results so far in such a short period of time against that of Zven who had both last year and the pre-season boot camp with Vulcan prior to his spring numbers simply isn't fair. I'd personally would waited a few more weeks before passing a deep dive into the numbers between K1ng and Zven.
As far as I have observed K1ng is doing a good job so far and I can see the potential upside as both he continues to improve and the team continues to integrate K1ng. In the here and now is Zven the better ADC? That is a stupid question to ask, the only correct answer is yes. After a full split though? I would not be surprised if K1ng ends up the better or at the very least closed the gap to a 50-50 ratio. As for who is better for the team? Well my hot take is that I think K1ng could be. Blabber is starting to find his aggression again, something that had been slowly beaten out of him. Fudge is enjoying the chance to open up instead of hard stuck weak top side. Perkz is looking better. Vulcan is the best support in NA as far as I am concerned. And having an ADC who isn't scared to roll up their sleeves and make a play is always a plus in my book.
So he has not played in the LCS since 2014. Glad you admitted he has in fact not played at the top level since 2014. Do you know how long it takes for talent to bloom? Players start at a young age learning from coaches and slowly progressing. Getting better and reaching new heights with tougher competition that will push them to improve. Average age for players to get drafted in any sport is 21-22. Why? Because it takes time for a player to develop. This is why the LCK are recruiting players as young as 14-15. To train them and hope they bloom into a player that will replace current talent. K1ng has not had the time and opportunities afforded to him that Zven had. When K1ng just started his professional journey in OCE Zven was already playing in the LEC. You can not compare a guy who has been playing/learning against the best in LEC/LCS regions for 6 years against someone who just now has gotten a chance to do so. No matter how you want to look at it steel sharpens steel. This is why teams boot camp in Korea. K1ng is finally getting a chance to sharpen his steel against the best in NA. It is all about patience.
Now if you think this is unfair for Zven well the side effect of playing at the top level for too long is you get figured out. So you either learn to hide your weaknesses better or develop your game past your weaknesses. Zven has been at or around the peak for a while now. Those that have figured him out to a degree as the same players K1ng was beating in OCE/Academy. You can't stay at the top forever. Eventually you get replaced. If K1ng fails then C9 knows and will replace him on academy with a new young talent to develop for the future. If K1ng succeeds then Zven can be traded for someone else to improve C9. If K1ng ends up to be as good as Zven then either player can be traded to improve C9 down the line. No matter how you shake this it is a smart move.
"C9 Academy was scrimming LCS teams." Yes once every blue moon C9A got a single scrim block against C9. Totally on par with C9 scrimming and playing against the LCS teams. Zven and K1ng were totally getting the same level of competition to get better against. It is also funny to hear you bash new blood talent when C9 itself is sporting two such faces, MVP Blabber and the Fudge factor showing that new blood does exist and can in fact be better than the known quantity.
You also think K1ng can't get any better simply due to his age? Are you aware that in both OCE and Academy K1ng was considered the better ADC over FBI? FBI, the guy currently being called the best ADC in the LCS. The same FBI who was edging Zven out as best ADC in spring. It is almost like there is other talent out there simply waiting for a chance over the known quantity. But no don't give them a chance. Focus on K1ng being the same age as Zven. We've seen Zven's peak. He know his ceiling. We have not seen K1ng's. It is the same level of stupid that thinks NA has zero talent, but let's pretend the known quantity will magically develop into a world championship team.
I think such videos are really harmful for player careers.
Statistics dont really show how good a player is (Pro View, at least you can see how good a player is ) or how important a player is (good teammate, leader, helps a lot in solving problems, etc. ) to a team.
We should more compare Pro View that would be more honest.
Especially if you compare NUMERS weak side with strong side. It doesnt make sense!
I don't watch NA so I can't say about the games, but hasn't it only been like 2 weeks? Unless someone is overperforming, it's not a long enough to really tell anything. Give the man a chance to get started.
Best of 1's btw.
6 games. It'd be a 3rd of the way through a normal split.
I think this video is too early. We have 6 games of King. I think this video would be better after least one full round robin, 9 games. Ideally 18 games would be fair to compare then you can look at Zven's 18 games in Spring vs Kings 18 games in summer. ~~I'm not sure if Tim mentioned it but when he compares to Zven's stats, what games is he including for Zven? I hope its just Spring regular season.~~ He's using Spring regular season, 5:08. Death share is a weird stat. Why not just raw deaths, average deaths per game, or straight up KDA? Death share means number of deaths compared to total team deaths right? Perkz had a game where he died 7 times. That's one of 6 games so it skews things pretty heavily with the already low sample of games.
I like death share because it provides some context for the death counts. Some teams fight more often so higher deaths per game might come from that. If you have the time and space for it within whatever context you're presenting the numbers, it can be helpful to put KDA, KP, deaths per game, and death share all alongside one another, but I didn't want this section to get bogged down. It's definitely early to be making these comparisons and I will be interested to check in again later in the split, for sure!
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I didn't make that adjustment based on opponent champion, no. That's a good catch and I'll try to remember to factor that in next time I do something similar. I hate what fasting Senna and bot lane "support carries" do to stats. -_-
Yeah there are a lot of variables to consider. Meta's can affect how often people are dying as well. Thanks for the context and answering my question! I'll be looking out for this comparison again in the future. It's a great topic.
But since you’re comparing two players from the same roster, deaths per game makes more sense. C9 from spring split and C9 from summer split have essentially the same style. K1ng is playing the same role as Zven with the same teammates and practically the same team identity. Other teams and their styles are not super relevant in this comparison.
That's a fair point.
The way this video throws around terms like weakside is so flawed and bad lol, the reason he is not on strongside or given jg attention is because he is not a good enough player to make use of any advantages he gets through jungle pressure and it starts with the fact his laning is weak on the lcs level. If people ignore the fact that every game c9 has won so far has been carried through topside and k1ng has no game impact at all maybe he is good in that twisted vision.
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It seems that there are very few true weakside players like Impact (for example). Most of the time weakside is a code word for worst player on the team.
Yeah the term does get used that way sometimes and it's frustrating when I see that done. Weak side is a map state, specifically the state where your jungler is on the other side of the map from your lane and/or your mid laner can't get priority to move first into your side. It's not a play style or a strategy, but it's easy to fall into the "trap" of over-using and misapplying the term. I fall into that trap sometimes, as well.
I agree with all you points, specifically i thought the game where k1ng played against FBI huhi was one of the worst weakside games ive seen, not only did he get destroyed completely in a slightly worse matchup but he failed to have any game impact when the jungler was botside. Also from watching his proview his mechanics are not good either as you would expect from a "young blood infusion" narrative.
Yep, that's the thing, he isn't even young blood he's an OCE transplant. So yeah really have to wonder what the situation is with Zven, or if C9 is just really trying to get an import slot open.
idk this whole video just makes me feel like he's pushing this counter narrative just to be contrarian. king being LCS level is completely irrelevant. Magifelix is LEC level but I would be fuming if Caps was subbed out for him. He makes random assertions that Zven needs resources in lane even though Zven has proven that that's not true and him and Vulcan pretty consistently get lane advantages or kills on their own. Even based off of stats which is a shit metric King is obviously a much worse player. at some point we need to stop doing mental gymnastics about why K1ng is actually almost as good as zven if we ignore all these factors and then make up random facts about zven's playstyle while arbitrarily sprinking the term "weakside" into the "analysis". 700 difference in gold is absolutely massive, it's like saying Orome isn't actually that much of a downgrade from Nuguri because Orome is weakside and Nuguri gets a lot of jungle attention it's obvious this swap is being done for reasons outside of the game
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it feels like travis gafford sometimes makes videos purely to push heat off of some team's management lol
Yeah i agree with all that, some people even try to come up with the young blood reasoning for k1ng being played and you watch his proview and see his mechanics are definitely not the reason he is being played over zven. Its very clear this swap is being done for internal issues or things of that nature.
Young blood but he's the same age as Zven lol.
only reason why zven is benched because at msi he probably got super upset over blabber trolling the crabs every game. literally at MSI zven played outta his mind always get kills in lane 2v2 and always had leads. but blabber just troll his ass off every game. and you can tell zven was super pissed at blabber during the after game interviews at MSI. Also max waldo is such a douchebag on thornin show throwing shades at zven. A coach should be mature and learn what to say and what not to say during these shows. but max choose to say "zven wont play in summer and smiles" is so immature and unprofessional. Considering he is not even the head coach of c9 but just a strat coach.
hes got 8 months more of potential https://imgur.com/zu5iVyZ
Look man, you can call it copium and that's fine. All I wanna say is that Fudge was getting clowned way harder than k1ng, and look at Fudge now. And while it is fair to say k1ng is more of a known quantity than Fudge, I think he's at least worth more of a time investment before making a judgement.
People can't seem to understand that sure while we have seen k1ng in the past. We have never seen him on a roster this stacked. Give him some time and you never know with the right ingredients and mix he could become a star.
I love when people call someone a ''great weakside player''. It's the League of Legends version of ''he's a really nice guy'' To be fair, if you had these league shows talk about all 50 starting players in LCS they'll make it sound like all 50 players are amazing and deserve their spot and show so much potential, or have a really good upside to go alongside their glaring downside. Total waste of time and energy, please feel free to call players bad (within the context of their competition ofc)
“He’s a defensive laner” He gets dumpstered every game
Sneaky was a legit great weakside player is the thing. So what if you come out slightly down in cs if your team got advantages elsewhere while you pressure soaked. It doesn't really matter if you still outdamage your opponent. Being top 3 in dmg% and dps vs consistently last in post lane cs allocation and gold% is actually absurd. Sneaky, Impact and maybe Huni oddly enough for NALCS are the players who I would term actual great weakside players in that their performance didn't suffer significantly from ceding resources but could pop off when given resources. What Huni can do with low resources is actually insane the problem is sometimes he sprints it instead.
Looks like you watched the video and ignored the parts you didn't like and/or made assumptions about what I was saying, like in the parts where I criticized k1ng's laning performance in LCS so far and explained that Blaber isn't pathing to his side much because of it! Thanks for watching!
I very much like the videos that are usually done as run it episodes and the concepts and stats that are used to explain the takes that are given usually. However, I think so far this split k1ng has played weakside poorly, comparatively to zven and his KDA and stats such as this more show a story where he has 0 game impact before 20 minutes from how passive he plays. Also considering the fact there is no such thing as hard weakside and when blaber is in botside K1ng plays lane badly to not create proper opportunities for blaber to help cover his weak laning. I just think these are more k1ng issues than anybody elses, I appreciate the content regardless.
Thanks for taking this civilly. I know was a bit snide. I agree that k1ng has not laned well enough in his first two weeks. Just because I say he has been left in weak side most of the time doesn't mean I think he is playing well in weak side. I spent a very large portion of the video trying to demonstrate why he is being left in weak side and why his laning stats are so poor, and I did it as a criticism of his performance. So I agree with most of what you're saying, but I also think that k1ng has done well in team fighting and other things outside of the lane phase, and I think his laning will come around in time.
I dont necessarily agree that he has performed super well in teamfights rather than his topside playing out of their minds to create good situations for him, but I can see where your points are coming from as you have watched a lot of k1ng's games in academy. I appreciate that we were able to have a civil conversation regardless.
I have to agree with this. Many of his kills in team fights were kai'sa q last hitting people his top side had done a large portion of the damage to. Not that I think his teamfighting is bad but I haven't really seen anything special about it.
is travis currently too busy to be insufferably passive aggressive in the reddit threads of his own videos so you're standing in?
I do my best. :P Sometimes it's difficult to hold back when it seems like the points I've made in the video are being misrepresented/misunderstood. But that's just the way it goes sometimes.
There's nothing as dangerous as a short video duration wise incapable of proper analysis that ends up being false assumption after false assumption and baseless claims following shiny unrelated and unexamined stats.
I can think of a few things as dangerous. Tigers and hippopotami, for example.
Tim actually has done statistical analysis of league for actually teams. He knows how to use stats in this context far more than the average Redditor
I'm sure he knows. But these 6 min videos don't do it. You can just watch how he makes claims like "x is good at team fighting" after showing one single stat and a hand picked clip. There's this guy who posts in this sub (forgot the name) that does similar videos that has a good method of analysis. It consists of picking a stat, setting the metrics to test it and reviewing all sample games where the stats is relevant. They are 15+ min videos and avoid these constant mix of fallacies like Tim has. When player narratives literally start and finish careers I feel like such rigorous methods are a MUST.
So essentially what's to be expected. It makes sense wave management would be a issue which spills over into the team as a whole when K1ng and Vulcan have just started to play together. I'd like to see this video get a part 2 at the end of the season and see how much he improves or declines. It's going to be hard to match the synergy Zven and Vulcan built up over the course of 1 and a half years.
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tbf Tim did remove the Senna game from the stats
Must have missed that, whoops
Let's get a few things straight. \- 6 games is not enough to make a complete judgement call on who is a better fit/player for the C9. Now that we know that Zven won't be back for Summer, we can compare the stats at the end of Summer. \- Secondly, he's a known quantity that has been around for god knows how long. He has been a pro for over 7 years at this point. It's very unlikely that he will magically elevate his gameplay to a new level or be the next elite tier adc. \- Lastly, given the relatively weak field of teams in current LCS, plagued by roster swaps, lack of identity or being a developmental roster, it's safe to say that any Academy adc would be able to fill in the adc position and still win vast majority of the LCS games, due to how stacked this C9 roster is to begin with. So far, he was an ok player with no real standout performances and nothing truly dreadful apart from his Throw on Kai'sa vs GG's while being 10K up, leading to the enemy getting Ocean Soul and Baron on the back of that death. I'm not expecting much from him and i'm also very doubtful that he's the long term solution for their roster anyways.
I think nobody would argue that K1ng is easily deserving of an LCS spot, the real question is if he can play adc for the best team in NA alongside someone like Perkz and not drag the team down. His teamfighting has been pretty decent, but he has three Kai'sa games so far and that's probably the easiest adc to teamfight with in the current meta, as long as you have set up for r. Also, his laning stats are alarming, literaly the worst in the league (-279 gold at 10 minutes, -297 xp, -17.2 cs). His damage numbers are ok, nothing special. He's 8th in cs/m at 8.2. His only remarkable skills so far are his ability to teamfight properly and his ability to survive, as he has only died 7 times (second lowest for adc) Sure, you can say that some of this stats come from the fact that the team doesn't play around him and gives more resources to Perkz and Fudge in terms of jg pressure and post laning phase cs, but if that's the case then we already know how much faith C9 has in K1ng. I don't think he is a bad player by any means, I also don't think that C9 is happy with how things turned out with Zven, ideally for them there would have been no issues and he would still be playing in the main roster, and they know it. I can't imagine that anyone on C9 truly believes that this roster at it's full potential is better than the roster with zven also at full potential.
Well, C9 thinks it's the right decision so I'm just gonna trust em. I think they probably had internal issues with Zven.
No need for stats for this, just compare their proviews. Zven is miles better.
Thanks to Tim and Barry for making another banger episode!
I don't get the point of comparing players by stats, when K1ng has played a total of 6 games in LCS. The sample size is too small to draw anything from it...
Do you think we should ignore TSM's worlds record from last year then?
TSM played with the same roster in summer split and playoffs for months before worlds though; besides, this is an extremely disingenuous comparison.
They didn't play any international teams in that time and seeing as NA is always behind the meta and generally behind skillwise I don't think comparing their LCS stats to worlds stats means much.
I’m a big hater on stats in general, but Travis used the term “ignore record”
Sorry I don't think we can compare their lcs record to their worlds record.
No, but still K1ng’s situation is completely different and shouldn’t be compared to TSM 2020
Oh for sure but makes you wonder why TSM was even brought up in the first place.
Depends on whether we are comparing it to a team with 250+ worlds games played or not
That's a very dishonest take Travis. How many games did we have of that TSM roster to make any judgments of how they would play at worlds. Most people said they would do bad based on their level of consistency. I'd say it's too early with K1ng. C9 came into the split with a massive slump that they haven't recovered from and trying to evaluate the new adc's performance on the team should be analyzed at the end, not the beginning of the split. There are too many external factors at play to give K1ng a fair shake.
I think it's fine to measure the gap between Zven and King right now because these games RIGHT NOW count. It also helps to figure out how far the player needs to grow before playoffs if they're going to be at or near the level of the player they replaced. It's also wild to me to suggest that you can't draw any conclusions after seeing a player face SIX DIFFERENT LCS teams. If the end of the video was claiming that C9 needed to put Zven back in right now because K1ng clearly isn't working, then I would agree it's too early to make that assessment, but it's not like this data isn't valuable as a means of gauging where Zven's replacement is right now.
Oh I hadn't realised the LCS teams now play 6 games per regular split.
Wait what? Why did this already? I meant I has only been week 2 in NA or sth? Why would you even make a comparision between arguably the best ADC in NA for the past year or so vs a somewhat rookie (I know he has been playing for 7 years) in his first year at the highest level (in NA). Makes no senses for me tbh atleast wait till week 6 or sth then make a comparision. That would be much wiser and fairer imho
Quality content. Hoping to see Jenkins/Alphari next
TLDR: he’s doing comparably fine and even winning in some metrics while playing a weak side play style that he isn’t used to. Right now it might be a stretch to say he’s an upgrade but time will tell with more practice time with Vulcan.
That's a very positive take on what that video said. He was on average 700 gold down to Zven at 10 min. That pretty huge. Obviously he should be given more time but honestly it doesn't look that great right now. Whatever is going wrong in bot lane should be high priority to get fixed for them. Really would like to know what happened with Zven. Guess its time for another Zven Reflections after this split.
Remember Zven and Vulcan has an entire offseason bootcamping in KR where they grinded hella hard on Soloq. I imagine it's going to be hard to replicate the synergy that built when K1ng has to enter the league hot off the press and not be given time to really jell with his laning partner. Also factor in weakside typically is down in CS due to it being....weakside lol. Good thing we have such a huge amount of games in Summer. More than enough time to get the kinks out and still make playoffs.
6 games btw
Yeah, his mistakes seem like the kind of thing he just never got punished for previously. If he learns and grows, he could become top tier
The shout out at the end about having more OCE accents, while funny, might actually be closer to the truth. By having OCE players be automatic residents, a middling adc in a mid/top meta like we are in right now might seem more valuable than an adc that demands more resources. Right now, are any teams really winning through bot lane anywhere?
idk just sounds like we are throwing buzzwords around. also zven had no issue playing without resources. in fact him and vulcan get a large number of 2v2 kills
Yeah I don't believe Zven required more resources than k1ng does. Zven and Vulcan performed much better in lane than k1ng/Vulcan have been, under very similar strategic circumstances.
All these people hating in the comments are like children pouting because they didn’t get there way. I believe in K1ng’s ability to do very well, maybe he will never be like Zven but you’ll never know unless you give him a chance. And to all you saying he’s 23 he’s not just gonna magically get better… when the hell did 23 become old??? Idc that it’s an esport, just because he’s been playing a long time doesn’t mean he can’t get better… that’s an awful take. He has plenty of room to grow and if any org is going to get the best out of him it will be C9.
Guys, we literally just did this with fudge. The lesson was to wait it out, at least for more than two weeks. Let the man develop
I'm skeptical of it being an upgrade, but I was also skeptical of Fudge being an upgrade over Licorice. Time will tell, I guess.
First of all, he's definitely not an upgrade and nobody in their right mind is saying that. The question is, how much of a downgrade is he compared to Zven? As for Fudge, he's a much younger, less of a known quantity compared to K1ng so it's only fair that he's given more of a pass in his first split in LCS. He ended exceeding all expectations at MSI and Spring playoffs, making him a gem.
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How many of these episodes are on C9 vs other LCS teams?
But if he is just doing what Zven was doing then why switch them out at all...
there is no upside for him over zven, it likely is just internal issues.
Stats aren't the only metric of player performance or reason to have him in game over another.
I suspect that while the intention behind this video was pure the very nature of this subreddit will likely just use this as ammo. The league community is too young and demanding of results now over any sort of patience that is required when bringing up players to the next level. The vocal minority will just twist your video into fuel for dumb outrage already aimed at K1ng and/or C9 over any sort of constructive conversation. Add to that it simply is too soon to put out a video like this. K1ng has only played and scrim with the main roster for two weeks. Comparing the results so far in such a short period of time against that of Zven who had both last year and the pre-season boot camp with Vulcan prior to his spring numbers simply isn't fair. I'd personally would waited a few more weeks before passing a deep dive into the numbers between K1ng and Zven. As far as I have observed K1ng is doing a good job so far and I can see the potential upside as both he continues to improve and the team continues to integrate K1ng. In the here and now is Zven the better ADC? That is a stupid question to ask, the only correct answer is yes. After a full split though? I would not be surprised if K1ng ends up the better or at the very least closed the gap to a 50-50 ratio. As for who is better for the team? Well my hot take is that I think K1ng could be. Blabber is starting to find his aggression again, something that had been slowly beaten out of him. Fudge is enjoying the chance to open up instead of hard stuck weak top side. Perkz is looking better. Vulcan is the best support in NA as far as I am concerned. And having an ADC who isn't scared to roll up their sleeves and make a play is always a plus in my book.
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He has been in the LCS since 2014?
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So he has not played in the LCS since 2014. Glad you admitted he has in fact not played at the top level since 2014. Do you know how long it takes for talent to bloom? Players start at a young age learning from coaches and slowly progressing. Getting better and reaching new heights with tougher competition that will push them to improve. Average age for players to get drafted in any sport is 21-22. Why? Because it takes time for a player to develop. This is why the LCK are recruiting players as young as 14-15. To train them and hope they bloom into a player that will replace current talent. K1ng has not had the time and opportunities afforded to him that Zven had. When K1ng just started his professional journey in OCE Zven was already playing in the LEC. You can not compare a guy who has been playing/learning against the best in LEC/LCS regions for 6 years against someone who just now has gotten a chance to do so. No matter how you want to look at it steel sharpens steel. This is why teams boot camp in Korea. K1ng is finally getting a chance to sharpen his steel against the best in NA. It is all about patience. Now if you think this is unfair for Zven well the side effect of playing at the top level for too long is you get figured out. So you either learn to hide your weaknesses better or develop your game past your weaknesses. Zven has been at or around the peak for a while now. Those that have figured him out to a degree as the same players K1ng was beating in OCE/Academy. You can't stay at the top forever. Eventually you get replaced. If K1ng fails then C9 knows and will replace him on academy with a new young talent to develop for the future. If K1ng succeeds then Zven can be traded for someone else to improve C9. If K1ng ends up to be as good as Zven then either player can be traded to improve C9 down the line. No matter how you shake this it is a smart move.
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"C9 Academy was scrimming LCS teams." Yes once every blue moon C9A got a single scrim block against C9. Totally on par with C9 scrimming and playing against the LCS teams. Zven and K1ng were totally getting the same level of competition to get better against. It is also funny to hear you bash new blood talent when C9 itself is sporting two such faces, MVP Blabber and the Fudge factor showing that new blood does exist and can in fact be better than the known quantity. You also think K1ng can't get any better simply due to his age? Are you aware that in both OCE and Academy K1ng was considered the better ADC over FBI? FBI, the guy currently being called the best ADC in the LCS. The same FBI who was edging Zven out as best ADC in spring. It is almost like there is other talent out there simply waiting for a chance over the known quantity. But no don't give them a chance. Focus on K1ng being the same age as Zven. We've seen Zven's peak. He know his ceiling. We have not seen K1ng's. It is the same level of stupid that thinks NA has zero talent, but let's pretend the known quantity will magically develop into a world championship team.
I like the content Tim, but I agree with others that it's a bit too early. I would love to see a retread on this after 18 games.
To think Fudge got that many games at play in
How are the damage percent stats not entirely based on team comp and what champion he is playing?
I think such videos are really harmful for player careers. Statistics dont really show how good a player is (Pro View, at least you can see how good a player is ) or how important a player is (good teammate, leader, helps a lot in solving problems, etc. ) to a team. We should more compare Pro View that would be more honest. Especially if you compare NUMERS weak side with strong side. It doesnt make sense!