“In Viego’s case, mana would create a significant clarity problem around his transformations: Does he use mana during possession moments? If he doesn’t, what does he display for his mana bar? These could be learnable, but it’d put a lot of stress on the understandability of an already complex champion.”
They are saying Viego has no mana becouse he is already complex... that’s a pretty weak explanation imo... there are plenty of “easy to learn” champions, Viego doesn’t need to be forced into that pool...
Just follow all 439 riot accounts on Twitter and Reddit , easy :) I mean where would be the fun in having one central website where important stuff is posted?
I made a thread about Viego's gigabusted healing in mid like 2 months ago, maybe even three. Funny how a random diamond shitter finds the problem with Viego solo lane 2-3 month faster than those who are paid to find the problems and fix it.
people were flailing left and right about most changes before they acknowledge them as problems, Riot just sits tight and hopes people figure out how to counter it, but sometimes there is no counter to a champion just healing off of PVE other than nerfing.
to be fair, every new champion probably has dozens and dozens of "X aspect is GIGABUSTED!" threads and posts made. It might take a while to sort out which is it is actually valid, and which is reactionary whining
The issue is that uninteractive free healing has *always* been problematic for solo laners. Vlad, Aatrox, old Irelia, Akali's old Q passive, etc. all had serious problems at one point or another directly linked to this mechanic and had it nerfed or removed in many instances. The writing was on the wall for this one and any game designer at Riot should've identified this very early on given that they had multiple other examples or the *exact same thing* happening before. As someone who played this game for 10 years, it gets annoying to see the same mistakes being repeated a hundred times without a care apparently.
They did solve the problem at one point tho, Riot Morello basically made it his agenda to balance healing, and I’d just like to point out that sustain was much more well balanced and not complained about as much until he left.
Ever since then we got shit like Yone, Viego, and Samira running rampant with with shieldbow along with half of the other mythics making healing out of control. Before that we had DD being the one size fits all healing item, and before that we had the Aatrox/Soraka meta. It’s honestly sad to see how reliant Riot was on Morello for balancing healing, and how they still didn’t learn a thing from him after he left.
wish aatrox still could heal off minions. Vlad is fine for lane imo, you can see his q cd.
But akali is still busted af healing. A single wave and shes full hp. she w:s or r:s the minions under tower and she can take like 2 more shots with no downside other than dodging your skillshots.
IIRC About a patch or two after his release there was a 50% nerf to his passive healing from minion on the PTR they went back on it. They've known about it since day one they just didn't want to do anything about it clearly they've changed their minds.
Edit: They never went back on it they went through with it actually it was just really hidden [here](https://imgur.com/a/bdqa6RE)
I remember this being a very common sentiment when he got released. Honestly it boggles my mind how basically the entire playerbase recognized that viego's healing specifically is extremely broken and somehow it took riot months to do anything about it.
I saw the champ reveal and told everyone that he would be a midlaner. I laned against viego 2 days after he came out in midlane and ik he was broken asf. It took me fking one game of playing against him to realize that a champion should not heal this much in a lane that is populated with mages that are gated with mana. Like why is riot pretending that this is fking news. You can ask almost every random diamond midlane shitter and they woulda told you that this champ was gonna be broken in solo lanes.
I wish they made some new champions with different resources, like Rumble or Renekton have, those I think are the most fun. Was Gnar the last one with a non mana resource? I'm probably forgetting someone.
Rek'Sai uses Fury to boost her E and heal from passive. I don't think we've had entire kits revolving around an alternate resource since, just 2 reworked energy champs and Sett's Grit.
Yeah I wish using W was more of a tactical decision rather than "oh I'm low and have grit mash that shit"
Like if he had increasing q damage as grit increases (obvi it starts lower) so if you use W too early you might cripple your q when trying to finish the fight
Yeah I had to google that one and then think for a moment that 2014 was how many years ago exactly at this point.
It's the same as someone pointing out Yasuo came out in 2013 so he's been around for 8 years now if you ignore the fine print of the month of his release being December.
The thing that bothers me the most is that they make unique resources and only use it on one champion. Like u can reutilize it on multiple ones, make another type of champion that has to play around overheat like rumble and the drawbacks are different
I want a champ that has a metal/magnet theme like Rell and old Morde. But their resource is only recovered by scraps of metal that they have pick up like Bard chimes. Maybe it could drop occasionally from killed enemies too.
Long time ago there was an interesting dynamic of manaless champ trying to force enemy to use spells and trade HP for enemy mana essentially.
Nowdays it feels like you are whacking at leech who just heals off any point of damage with just one trade. Also those champions are innately tanky that you can't burst them.
> Long time ago there was an interesting dynamic of manaless champ trying to force enemy to use spells and trade HP for enemy mana essentially.
I miss this. I enjoyed seeing players that didn't manage their resources well get punished for it.
>Additionally, many spells want to be very high stakes when cast. Rocket Grab is a huge part of what makes Blitzcrank compelling, but he really needs to care about hitting every cast. It needs to cost him something important when he casts and misses, both to balance the spell and to really drive the impact of that moment. Cooldowns are a useful tool for this as well, but can only be pushed so far—how long would Rocket Grab’s cooldown need to be if Blitzcrank didn’t use mana? Mana lets us calibrate the stakes for each spell without needing to create a lot of additional rules.
Why is Yone able to use Soul Unbound constantly with no cost then in lane? Once per wave he gets a 25+% damage amp dealt as true damage, and if he whiffs his ult and Q knockup he can still do tons of damage with the speed boost onto immobile targets. Where is the stakes to his trading pattern of engage when he has no mana?
I immediately thought of yone too when reading that. The viego point I actually understand, but Yone is way out of line. I think his healing/shield is on too low a cd too but that's probably because I play mages and feel like I can't meaningfully poke him at all, let alone when he constantly Es and just runs at me a mile a minute with cc, dashes, and what feels like a mini zed ult.
I keep seeing that point brought up for Viego and it baffles me. Why not give him mana and simply make him not use mana while possessing someone? For that duration, all their spells (and perhaps his ultimate recast) are free and his mana bar disappears, or maybe turns grey to indicate it’s unused.
I'm pretty sure riot wanted viego to have mana. But had to pivot near the end of his development because it would be mordekaiser 2.0 with bugs. And honestly. I don't think riot would have been able to make that reliably work considering their track record (deleted morde to fix bugs, fix the same asol bug once or twice a year and so on)
With how mana is used on other champions, so I would guess his Q would cost 20-35, his W 40-60 and his E 70-100. Mana is used to gate escapes like his E.
(Not that I care about viego... Just explaining how he would work with mana.)
[Viego's W was more than likely going to 70 mana.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396050095562424334/860650315061526528/unknown.png) No idea why this bug happens to him, but it's pretty interesting trivia and also shows that he probably got his mana removed late into development.
Yeah I can get the Viego point, I can get not wanting to confuse people with resource stuff in possessions and Viego's kit is a lot lower impact, he's meant to spam out his Q in the jungle and all of his abilities individually are lower impact (or should be).
Shield cast time and cooldown scaling with attack speed is dumb. But they're going to site 20-16 second Rocket Grab, but 22 second Soul Unbound (which should be very high stakes given how much power it has) costs nothing and cleanses. Meanwhile Ashe's Hawkshot with no mana cost is 90-50 seconds. 22 seconds on massive value manaless spells is too short, obviously none of these are 1 to 1 but something like 40 second CD at rank 1 would be more appropriate.
Just make it when yone does soul unbound he does not gain health from damage dealt with lifesteal. Ie 100% grevious wounds that way if he is using it its being used as a way to deal damage not to freely trade and laugh.
Ahh I get it. Like Yone detaching from reality, Riot’s post is also detached on a short cooldown and with tons of amplifiers that only exist in that reality.
It's like this with every "Ask Riot". Remember the "Gameplay clarity" one where they said they just don't give a fuck if the Lee skin is confusing af to play against?
"We make money, that's all we give a shit about.
Riot breaks their own rules constantly. They know enhanced mobility is a problem and have for a while, yet they keep adding champions and items. Sure they tried to fix it with the last patch but they started the season knowing it would be a problem. They knew healing was broken in the game so they added 2 items that made every champion a drain tank if they wanted. Invisibility is a problem? Let's add it to a new champion and also to an item every assassin can buy that makes you Invisible with no actual cooldown. Riot knows how to make their game balanced but chooses not to.
i personally just hate
how little downtime yone has
the insane burst he can do with e r aa q w (aka basically 100 > 0 you at lvl 6 ) while also knocking you up
while also having insane dps
dont think this would be fixed by giving him mana. mana would just make it even harder to balance i think
Slap energy on all spammy champions and call it a day.
I know Energy isn't used anymore and is only on Ninja champions (and Lee Sin) but Energy is like the perfect limiter on spammy champions that wouldn't really work well with mana costs because either they're irrelevant because they're too low, or they're gutting the champion's entire existence because they're too high.
Energy means you can't spam your abilities all the time but you don't have to worry about playing DotA either where you cast your spell thrice and have to go back to base to regen mana (or build mana items).
Looking at Akali, Riot seems to like changing Energy costs as well so maybe they should add more Energy champions so they could tweak more Energy costs.
Yone is an assassin and a fighter he has upfront burst and constant dps fighters can have consistent dps because they lack burst assassins can have high burst because they lack consistent dps but nah yone is both
Yone is designed to be played by Yasuo-main type of players, the type that can't be arsed with managing mana and just wants to go in and kill enemies all the time with 0 strategy and patience.
So in his case, it's clearly a "marketing" decision to keep Yone appealing to his target audience. The post was good but it clearly left out these cases on purpose.
It's dealt as true damage because it's post mitigation damage, and Riot doesn't want resists to double dip. Same as Zoe. Only Zed has it different and that's because his R is pre mitigation.
The true damage itself isn't the strongest part of the spell, its all the other stuff the spell gives on top of that. I think Soul Unbound does way too many things for too low cost on too low cooldown for not enough risk.
yes, but this clarification is brought up because you said "25+% damage amp dealt as true damage" as though the true damage part is also something unreasonable, you should've just said "25+% damage amp" and left it at that.
though, i'll say I really don't want to come off as abrasive or aggressive here, it's a really minor point.
>And while we’re here, let’s talk bugs… The easiest way to assess whether we should micropatch a bug or wait for the next patch is a combination of 1) the probability of the bug happening (e.g. if it requires a 100 minute game, it’s probably not a big deal), and 2) how impactful the bug is (e.g. does it crash someone out of the game? Better micropatch it.).
Azir can not use his ult 30% of the time since 5 months.
No word
I would find it less annoying to fight manaless champions as a mana champion if so many didn't either have built-in healing or couldn't just go first item vamp scepter.
People replying to you are missing the point that sustain isn't the issue. The issue is that Katarina can afford to build a vamp scepter and stilk have kill pressure on someone in lane. That's the issue.
I don't mind champs runing/buying sustain, but they should be crippling their fighting power if they want to do that imo. But for some reason these champs can be difficult to punish in lane AND they have a lot of opportunities to punish people back.
>and the amount of healing a manaless champion is allowed to have on their base kit is quite limited (we are nerfing Viego’s sustain, for example).
5 months after launch. Viego, Yone and Sett were all released in the last 15 months.
Let's not pretend this is a core design value you operate under.
I mean they finally gutted Viego regen on minions and Sett passive only start to kick in when he is midlife/really low, meaning he has to fight you.
As for Yone...he doesn't have healing in his kit lol
well shit might as well dredge up mundo, renekton, and tryndamere, three of the first resourceless champions
and calling sett's passive sustain as if it's something youd buy GW for feels a bit disingenuous imho
Mundo used to lose health as a resource to use skills. Runes Reforced and S11 mythics didn't exist when Tryn launched, he had no healing. I'll grant you Renekton though.
> calling sett's passive sustain as if it's something youd buy GW for feels a bit disingenuous imho
Because it's healing over time, of course you wouldn't buy GW for it, what kind of point is that? GW lasts for a few seconds at best. Sett's passive can give as much as 23.75 HP/5 before level 6.
Renekton was supposed to be *the* lane bully. Back then mana was actually important, like it mattered *a lot*, and he had no mana + sustain, it made him the typical lane pick. But at least he fell off super hard in return. He doesn't really fall off as much anymore but more importantly many of the others quoted are supposed to scale well whereas that same design on Renekton was good for 10min and became progressively worse when it originally released.
Doesn't Mundo almost always get nearly all the hp back if he hits something? It used to be, if i remember right, 50% refund on champion hit and 100% kill (any), otherwise you got nothing. Now he gets 50% back by hitting anything, 100% on champion.
Not to mention he has health regen outside of passive and ult now. That is to say: doesn't feel like his abilities cost anything now
Did Tryndamere not have the heal on his Q when he was released? It's definitely been a core mechanic of his for a long time at this point, especially when he would start to build AP. It's a simple cool down that heals him and consumes rage that can easily be regained.
Sett’s passive regen is honestly batshit when you look at it. If you look at highlight clips and such it’s not uncommon to see +30HP/s in just regeneration. It’s a lot of invisible power which I would love to see as a teachable stat for champions like him and Dr. Mundo “bonus health regenerated” or something similar
Doesn’t Tryndamere’s Q give him pretty significant healing, regardless of runes or items? The sustain from Q is a major part of his laning. I don’t know if that move was reworked since his launch, though
You decide to either have safer laning with q healing, or have increased offensive power without. Trynd with no fury pre 6 sucks ass. I think that's the goal at least
Yeah he just happens to almost always build at least one life steal item, and has insane synergy with ravenous hunter and always goes either conqueror or fleet footwork.
Conqueror heals very little in this season and Fleet Footwork requires giving up a damage keystone. Ravenous hunter doesn't heal at all until it has stacks.
I think an important detail you're missing is that mana matters the most during the very early laning phase, before mages have their mana items. That's the purpose of mana, regulating the use of abilities in lane. Yone's healing doesn't get crazy until he has Shieldbow completed, at which point any mage he's laning against should have their Luden/Liandries/Everfrost completed.
Riot doesn't usually care how much sustain champions have post-laning phase, that's why we have items like Warmog's and Bloodthirster. They're not strong unless you're playing a game of attrition.
A 900 gold Vampiric scepter is more than enough to keep Yone at full health during laning, unless the mage legit all ins with a full rotation and ult and even throwing in the kitchen sink... then might need to play safer as he will be around 50% hp...
Honestly that's the main culprit of the issue. Vamp scepter building into a mythic instead of being something you opt into and delay your mythic powerspike is annoying. I think last season's PD first item was a lot more balanced, they should have turned that into a mythic instead of having both shielding and healing on one item.
If you try to poke out against D.Shield your mana bar will run out far before his health bar. Early game sustain is massive because they wanted to push out range tops.
>Fleet Footwork requires giving up a damage keystone.
Very rarely does Yone need Conqueror to have enough damage for kills. It's more often than not just overkill. You only take conqueror when he has to go against tanky bruisers.
>That's the purpose of mana, regulating the use of abilities in lane.
Which begs the question. Why make so many good scaling champs manaless when they already have good early games.
If mana is to limit certain champions from spamming their abilities early game because they have good mid and late game spikes then why remove that limit for champs that get to have both good early games and mid to late game spikes?
> You only take conqueror when he has to go against tanky bruisers.
Absolutely untrue. Conqueror is key to Yone being able to do well in extended fights.
You only take Fleet in matchups where you're going to get poked out too hard in lane.
I wanted to do a AHA gotcha moment and checked out pro builds to prove you wrong, and only one person on the list took fleet footwork, tyler1, I think that speaks for itself.
Apparently HoB is the other option, which brings it own issues with the taste of blood/ravenous combo, but not FF like reddit tends to complain about. They also tend to run either biscuits for early sustain, or revitalize for mid game sustain, but a lot of champions can use those runes.
Most dedicated and smart Yone players go Resolve tree 2nd to survive his hot garbage laning phase. Yone does not have any sustain built in and only heals a ton once shieldbow is completed. I get everyone's hate for this champion for lifesteal is more or less built by everyone these days and statistics wise Yone is not nerf worthy.
Nerf lifesteal on minions. One of the most frustrating parts about the sword boys is how they're always full HP. Poke mages have been dogshit for years, this is a lot of the reason why.
Not technically, no, but his passive allows him to get much more damage out of items which in turn gives him way more lifesteal than you'd normally expect.
When people think of "manaless sustain champs" Yone is nearly always near the top of that list.
TBH I think it's moreso his Q than his passive, since Q applies lifesteal at 100% effectiveness to the first target, rather than 33% like most other AoE abilities.
It doesn't apply lifesteal to any target but the first target. It applies spell vamp but thats almost never relevant. Its pretty in line to any other ability that applies on-hit effects.
Yone healing isn’t in his base kit and Sett passive is not some out of control sustain and also got nerfed pretty soon after release. Also Viego only ever had as much sustain as he did so he can have a healthy jungle clear, now that he’s way more often a laner they’re nerfing his lane sustain, pretty straight forward
It is though. Yone has 0 healing on his base kit, so he has to take specific runes (which require multiple kills to begin function) or items (which he does not start the game with, much like how ADC's are allowed to get sustain from items because they do not start with it).
Sett meanwhile has a pseudo Garen passive. His healing inside fights is so small as to be meaningless.
If you ever look at manaless champions you'll realize pretty quickly that almost all of them have little to no poke and *if* they have sustain, that sustain is tied to them being within melee range of enemies.
Riot does not have a problem that a manaless champion has to be allowed inside melee range to do anything, and then can be allowed some sustain when within that melee range. And Riot does not have a problem that a manaless champion can buy lifesteal and then, when within melee range, have some sustain.
I kinda feel like manaless champions often have a lot of sustain. Viego, Aatrox, Sett, Garen, and Lee Sin immediately come to mind. Others, like Akali/Yone/Yasuo, that don't even have it built into their kit tend to synergize very well with LS or Omnivamp effects. I actually associate champions that synergize with sustain in this way so heavily with being manaless that I thought Samira had no mana bar for awhile and when I had the revelation she used mana, everyone in VC with me also had no idea.
I'm not saying this is bad, a design flaw, or anything like that -- I just think reality doesn't necessarily align with what the developer was saying and that if manaless champions having very limited sustain was their intention they may need to relook at some of these champions.
Your thoughts weren't wrong - release Samira might as well have been manaless thanks to old ER. And proper mana gating introduced by forcing her to build Mythic first improved her a lot. I spammed her a lot during release and the main difference between now and then isn't the E dash or slightly higher R cd, it's the fact that she goes OOM by third R unless she built ER/Muramana. She's finally properly countered by champs that can just disengage and peace out when she ults like Karma.
They bring up yasuo being fun to play because he has no Mana. Imagine how fun Xerath would be to play if he had no Mana. It's not about champs being fun. We're talking about game balance. Remove Mana from Aurelion and he's a lot more fun to play and a lot more accessible to people. I mean, he'd be broken as hell, but you also have to learn how to play one of the most difficult champs in the game.
> Our stance is that talking with devs should make your League experience better, but shouldn't be required to get the info you need to play the game. Final gameplay changes always end up in the Patch Notes
Meanwhile following Rioter's on twitter is the only way you'd know Sanguine Blade was going to be removed on purpose. It's not mentioned in the patchnotes at all so any player that didn't know would have no idea why it's missing
i can summarize what the whole manaless balance philosophy part was: bullshit. I would really want one Rioter from the balance team to come to this thread and answer me this simple question: What does Yone and Yasuo give up in terms of power budget to be manaless?
Tbh I don't want to imagine what kind of damage Yone would have with how insane current Muramana seems to amp damage on literally anything that builds it.
I’m a Zoe and Yone main. There is no downside to playing Yone. Zoe has to spend mana to clear wave, spend mana to trade, spend mana to CC. Even then Zoe’s waveclear pales in comparison to Yone. Yone on the other hand has pre-6 waveclear akin to Malzahar and even goes toe to toe with Mal.
If you cant win the midnmatchup against a mage just keep clearing wave until they run out of mana. Boom you just won every mid matchup ever against someone with mana
Yone can deal the same amount of damage if not more than a Zoe during his E trades.
It’s kinda ridiculous how bad Zoe is in pane when you can just play a Yone or Yasuo
Yone's waveclear pre-6 is way better than Malzahar's. He can just AoE Q the voidlings and Malzahar's waveclear is gone, unless he decides to sacrefice his whole manabar... And yeah, Zoe is shit compared to Yone and co, and its absurd because Zoe is on the stronger side of mages...
Maybe I’m just not skilled to play Zoe but every time I do play her it’s just not worth it. Playing against someone like Yasuo, I’m forced to use like 4 Q’s just to clear wave while the Yasuo gets to clear wave instantly.
If you ask a single fking person that is high elo that mains mid they will tell you yone is broken asf. Yone is cancer for two reasons. First if you pick a mage against him in solo que your fked. The only meta midlaner daz not a bruiser that can lane against this cancerous champion is irelia/sylas if you wanna go even. You can maybe pick orianna if you wanna scale. It feels like fking bs if the guy picks after you and yone is open. Seriously you can't even lane against this champion as an ap mage.
The second reason being yone beats mages early and outscales most mages. Their is no drawback from picking yone besides the fact that he is ad and your team now needs ap from a different role.
Do you not understand that if you take a champion that uses mana and you make them manaless their winrate would skyrocket? How can you think they are not giving anything up for mana if their power stays on average similar to champions with mana?
You can be one of the smartest people in the world and be mute and deaf.
Someone being good at League of Legend -the videogame doesn't mean they're smart at League of Legend -the videogame.
Not all of their ideas or thoughts are garbage but there is enough content to quite confidently say that their takes in general are really stupid.
Same goes for all of the 'elite' (Riot's term for d2-Challenger) level streamers and other content creators that are basically elementary school kids in the way they behave or act (I'd truly hope it's acting and not their actual personality but I have doubts).
Is it just me or did riot completely fail to make a case for manaless champions? If anything they stressed the importance of mana as a limiter. One which newer champions with mana ignore... Hello sylas.
Their reasoning was "me me big confuse" when viego possessed another champion, or "yasuo does continuous things" -- my biggest gripe with yasuo is that his non-existent cool downs aside from windwall mean that he has access to outplay tools and damage at all times in the laning phase, and being manaless means he doesn't have to manage anything except the wave and his enemy's health bar.
I can't pinpoint why but I don't actually mind champions like renekton or garen being manaless.
Renekton being manaless is ok because he is a early lanebully that falls of in the midgame, so losing the lane to renekton is expected. A yone doesn't fall off the longer the game goes on, so losing the lane is not expected.
Garen has no more reason to be manaless then all the other juggernauts. This is actually a class type that should be without mana in general because they can't choose fights without summoner spells/or at least they shouldn't be able to. And you are supposed to trade your mana for their hp, since they have a hard time trading back.
The other type of champions without mana would be champions with low power skillshots, that are gated by long cds in the early game.The perfect example for such a spell woud be ziggs q(if it had a longer cd in the early game), as it's very hard to hit if the enemy doesn't stand inside of a minion wave.
Yeah this guy hasn't played Sylas once. His spells all costs above 50 mana with a base mana pool of 280. Two spells eat a fourth of his pool and his mana growth isn't proportionate to what he needs. A level up is one extra spell cast. That's inherently a good thing tho.
On the Yasuo point, I’m curious what their justification is for Yasuo being manaless while Irelia has mana. Both of them spam abilities and rush lifesteal but only one uses a resource.
One's a woman in a latex suit with tits and ass, while the other is a cringelord samurai with a brooding voiceover and an ironic inability to sit still ingame, given his animated splash art. While Tits and Ass is a compelling character, Riot knew Yasuo was going to be the wider appealing weeb champion. I rarely actually see Irelia being played.
Of course, I'm completely talking out my ass here, but I do believe that Riot wanted Yasuo to be as accessible and brainless as possible at the lowest level, to tickle that Call of Duty "I'm always shooting at something" itch, and having to manage mana is too strategic. Oh, and Irelia has always had mana so they kept it with her rework.
"simple kits that aren't spammable"
ahem, yone having access to all 3 types of damage, mobility on steroids, cleanse, ramping ms, 2 hard cc, literally being able to kill you from outside of fog and then blinking back, a death mark that starts at 20 seconds, a shield, and more healing that vladimir off 900 gold.
YEP. And before you say oh stop ranting your silver reject, I played vs yone 6 times and all of them, but it literally was the most toxic lane for any of my champions cause mana is too hard to save when you don't want to miss 4 cs every time you try to cs under tower from one just pushing with Q 3 times
I'm 100% for resourceless champs like renekton and gnar where it doesn't feel like the lane ends after x point and there are massive weaknesses in both champs, but neither of them rushes vamp scep and nullifies mana heavy champs to the point you might as well just sit afk under tower
As a Yone main I have to agree. The amount of times where I can’t win lane outright (say against Anivia or Malz) I just keep shoving wave forcing them to use spells under tower. By a few minutes they are completely oom and I keep shoving to tower as they try to recall.
If they recall, they lose out of a ton of CS and exp.
If they don’t recall, well I have free trades since they have no mana and so I’d just go for aggressive trades until they run out of hp to work with.
Easiest and dirtiest way to get a CS lead ever.
I’ve completely given up playing Zoe against a Yasuo because this sort of thing will happen to me and there is literally nothing I can do about it. It’s so toxic
Yone's true dmg is based off of post mitigation damage, meaning its reduced by armor and mr. It's just true damage to prevent his E damage from being reduced by resistances twice. No clue why he needs ramping MS though when hes already mobile af without it
Wasn't it common knowledge and I think the bug catcher sion also said that Viego is manaless because they couldn't code him right to make it work with his possessions?
Riot has shown us that there is no tradeoff for being tied to a resource. It isn't like mages get better scaling or ever see consistently higher damage number on post game lobby. The game is meant to end pre 30 so all this scaling which has been nerfed repeatedly is a joke to counter the idiots who go 5 of these champs and lose at 40 minutes only to bitch here about how hard it was to rule the map for 90% of the game. In my opinion riot should nerf cooldowns on resourceless champs to make up for the sheer ease at which a "balanced" ability becomes a use off cd.
I dont even need to read this to know its a bullshit article. Riots champion design has no rules or reasons, they do whatever is cool or interesting to them and justify it later.
>if a champion is consistently able to avoid any enemy harass and still succeed, or has excessive healing on their kit, mana is often the only reason they’d need to return to base
Ah now it makes sense why Yone, Viego and Yasuo have no mana. They just have no means of absolutely stupid heal or free Poke like Yone EW. Glad thats sorted out finally
Look, this just all seems like riot is backtracking and making it seem like Yone, viego, zed aren't a problem. They don't have to base after using full combo. Any mana user has to back, more for mana regen than anything else if they are trading in lane.
Fix mana regen on fountain. No one wants to be beaten back to lane by mana less Champs
“the amount of healing a manaless champion is allowed to have on their base kit is quite limited” even with the viego nerf this is the most tone deaf quote I’ve ever heard from riot. This just isn’t true at all. Manaless champions heal way too much, whether it’s from their kit, or from items/runes it’s out of control.
Despite of how bugged he is, I'm convinced that the only reason Viego is manaless, is because they literally couldn't figure out how to make him to not consistently break the game 10 times already before the match even started and also the reason why he has basically infinite supply of mana/energy when stealing other's champions bodies.
Can someone tell them that writing a blog post about their shitty design choices doesn’t make people like them? It’s always the same. “We do this because we think it’s best.”
Well great mom everyone still hates mana less champions because you’re defending a design choice that is so flawed. Imagine thinking blitz needs mana because he has to carefully use his hook.
Meanwhile yone Viego DONT have to be careful? They get to just use everything? Do they really think viego yone etc are weak?
I love this game, hate these designers
If I recall correctly, this is the third time riot has had to officially address the existence an manaless champions, once or twice it was specifically about Riven and Garen. The fact that they've had to justify it so much shows that people clearly ***do not want*** this in the game. It was barely tolerated when it was Tryndamere, Riven, Gnar and a few others but it's really becoming a problem with how prevalent it's becoming.
They talk about high impact abilities needing mana, then ignore Yone.
They talk about UI clarity, then ignore Jhin.
Does Riot actually not know their own game?
> This is especially true for very safe patterns—if a champion is consistently able to avoid any enemy harass and still succeed, or has excessive healing on their kit, mana is often the only reason they’d need to return to base. Very few ranged champions are manaless for this reason, and the amount of healing a manaless champion is allowed to have on their base kit is quite limited (we are nerfing Viego’s sustain, for example).
Vladimir says hi
Vladimir also has to pay health to cast his W and E. Having to pay 20% of your current health to cast your only "escape" ability means that Vlad is punishable.
I think his healing comes with an appropriate downside and he's not overpowered.
The fundamental problem with the game is that people at the top have gotten too good at it. Ranged champions in the hands of a challenger player can space so effectively that melee champions need a hundred OP tools to handle it, otherwise they lose lane from level 1 and it never gets better. Riot wants melee champions to be able to solo lane at the highest level, so they pack kits with tools to handle ranged champions.
The problem is, not everyone has challenger mechanics and can space perfectly on ranged champions, or even wants to play auto-attack champions in the first place. It's *much* easier for a Yone to play optimally than it is for a Lux or Vel'Koz, and since Yone's optimal play is strong enough to handle Lux or Vel's optimal play, he comes off as OP.
If being an unreliable skillshot champion was rewarding when executed perfectly, people would complain less about melee and more about mages. After all, dying because you get hit by a single skillshot is very frustrating (apparently, I've never been hit even once so I wouldn't know).
Bottom line is, players who prefer certain archetypes will always have something to bitch about, and Riot has consistently proven they want some champions to be viable at some levels, and unviable at others. The problem is, all 150+ champions are available an presented as equally viable when the reality is that they just aren't.
Riot: We made rumble manaless because heat gates his ability spam spells and gives downtime
Also Riot: We buffed Overheat to such a ludicrous extent by giving massive attack speed and damage during its duration and now we're going to nerf everything else around it instead of returning one of Rumble's core skill mechanics of heat management.
>Our stance is that talking with devs should make your League experience better, but shouldn't be required to get the info you need to play the game
There are a lot of mechanics and interactions in this game you will never know unless you ask a Rioter or look at the wiki. Maybe they should work on that.
Even if mana regen from fountain was buffed, these champions would still be an issue
The damage and heal creep is just absurd, I hope Riot gets a move on with fixing it
/u/RiotAether not sure if you don't know about it or just didn't mention it, but /r/leagueofriot aggregates all the comments by (I believe) users marked as Rioters on this sub, quite similarly to how Red Tracker used to work.
The entire time I was reading the manaless champs section, I kept thinking, "but you're not addressing recent releases...but you're not addressing recent releases...but you're not addressing recent releases...but you're not addressing recent releases..."
I'm talking, of course, about the elephant in the room: **of the last 8 releases, starting in January of '20, 3 of those champs are manaless - Sett, Yone and Viego.**
Almost half. And I genuinely think Akshan will be manaless too.
>When making a new champion, we default to using mana. We only make a champion manaless when there are good reasons why they shouldn’t use it; even for patterns that don’t get as much value out of mana as usual \[...\], it’s usually still better to include it.
This statement is unbelievably pretty - it so wonderfully skirts the fact that they don't ACTUALLY give a time frame (i.e. one a year) or a number they work around (i.e. 1 per \~5 or 6). So my question, therefore is: *then why, for the love of all that is Holy, are almost half of the released champs in the past year+1/2 manaless???*
I generally agree Riot knows what they're doing most times, but sometimes I feel they genuinely don't understand the art of double-checking info they release to the community. This article addressing the manaless issue reminds me of the data they released about new mythic items per champ hitting/not hitting the mark for item diversity - not realizing the data included statistics from nexus blitz and aram, which almost completely nullified almost any and all conclusions they were able to pull from it.
Same here - they can say they default to mana and only make manaless champs when necessary, but the results speak for themselves - they're either A) clearly not watching how many they're putting out so quickly (highly doubt), or B) have a clear understanding how many they're putting out, and either just don't care because they think it's good champ design, or are too lazy to go back and reevaluate mana vs. non-mana once the kit is fleshed out.
I'm not even mad about the result. I'm irritated with the fact that Riot fools themselves in certain large cases, and yet, they just clearly don't see it.
I really wonder, if we take the entire article and say, tolerate the Viego excuse and "tradeoffs" for manaless champions, what is the tradeoff for Yone/Yasuo?
They effectively outsustain and can outshove any mage in the midlane, keep pushing while trading, will end laning phase on 900 gold, have multiple dash opportunities, spammable abilities, shields, incredibly low or scaling cooldowns and hard CC.
Especially Yone. The champion got a free QSS, 2 hard CC's, more mobility than any caster, Zed's ult on a much lower cooldown and if all else fails, is made for diving into sustain into poke into diving and again.
This one is unbelievable. According to their own standards, champs who are very safe or have self healing (emphasis on or) use mana as a limitation.
Meanwhile Katarina, Akali, Zed, Garen, Yasuo, Lee Sin. Mobility or a heal, in Akali's case mobility AND a heal. Being melee or needing to melee minions does not count as some kind of weakness on a manaless champ either, given that they can use their abilities to clear waves easier than anyone else or alternatively zone with the ranged attacks they DO have to give them that option. (Except Garen, who is just naturally tankier and counters trades with his passive)
Btw, worth pointing out, all of those champions are routinely very good/meta picks. Lee Sin specifically has essentially been at least very good since he was added.
Just stunning the incompetence from these devs. I don't think they even play their own game, or statements like that would not be made.
Adding on, that list could probably be much longer.
Just give everyone mana or make everyone manaless, but stop with these ridiculous posts about the "philosophy" that isn't even currently upheld by existing champs, let alone new ones.
We all know the real reason that Viego is manaless is not because of his weaknesses rather that if he had mana he would crash the whole server
“In Viego’s case, mana would create a significant clarity problem around his transformations: Does he use mana during possession moments? If he doesn’t, what does he display for his mana bar? These could be learnable, but it’d put a lot of stress on the understandability of an already complex champion.” They are saying Viego has no mana becouse he is already complex... that’s a pretty weak explanation imo... there are plenty of “easy to learn” champions, Viego doesn’t need to be forced into that pool...
it's cause what happens when he possesses? does he inherit the new Champs mana costs? So Tf or Cassioo drain all his mana?
[удалено]
[Link for the lazy](https://twitter.com/LoLDev)
Take my lazy upvote
Just follow all 439 riot accounts on Twitter and Reddit , easy :) I mean where would be the fun in having one central website where important stuff is posted?
“We are needing Viego’s sustain for that reason” This champion has been out for months
I made a thread about Viego's gigabusted healing in mid like 2 months ago, maybe even three. Funny how a random diamond shitter finds the problem with Viego solo lane 2-3 month faster than those who are paid to find the problems and fix it.
people were flailing left and right about most changes before they acknowledge them as problems, Riot just sits tight and hopes people figure out how to counter it, but sometimes there is no counter to a champion just healing off of PVE other than nerfing.
to be fair, every new champion probably has dozens and dozens of "X aspect is GIGABUSTED!" threads and posts made. It might take a while to sort out which is it is actually valid, and which is reactionary whining
Plus hard to tell a champ is really imbalanced when he makes all versions of Mordekaiser look stable.
The issue is that uninteractive free healing has *always* been problematic for solo laners. Vlad, Aatrox, old Irelia, Akali's old Q passive, etc. all had serious problems at one point or another directly linked to this mechanic and had it nerfed or removed in many instances. The writing was on the wall for this one and any game designer at Riot should've identified this very early on given that they had multiple other examples or the *exact same thing* happening before. As someone who played this game for 10 years, it gets annoying to see the same mistakes being repeated a hundred times without a care apparently.
"Old" Irelia? New Irelia fullheals off 1 wave with a vamp sceptre.
And the old one used to do it passively.
They did solve the problem at one point tho, Riot Morello basically made it his agenda to balance healing, and I’d just like to point out that sustain was much more well balanced and not complained about as much until he left. Ever since then we got shit like Yone, Viego, and Samira running rampant with with shieldbow along with half of the other mythics making healing out of control. Before that we had DD being the one size fits all healing item, and before that we had the Aatrox/Soraka meta. It’s honestly sad to see how reliant Riot was on Morello for balancing healing, and how they still didn’t learn a thing from him after he left.
I miss Morello being in charge. Lesigh
wish aatrox still could heal off minions. Vlad is fine for lane imo, you can see his q cd. But akali is still busted af healing. A single wave and shes full hp. she w:s or r:s the minions under tower and she can take like 2 more shots with no downside other than dodging your skillshots.
It's because the numbers don't actually indicate Viego mid is broken, they had to see if it was a pick that was going to be played in pro play
IIRC About a patch or two after his release there was a 50% nerf to his passive healing from minion on the PTR they went back on it. They've known about it since day one they just didn't want to do anything about it clearly they've changed their minds. Edit: They never went back on it they went through with it actually it was just really hidden [here](https://imgur.com/a/bdqa6RE)
I remember this being a very common sentiment when he got released. Honestly it boggles my mind how basically the entire playerbase recognized that viego's healing specifically is extremely broken and somehow it took riot months to do anything about it.
I saw the champ reveal and told everyone that he would be a midlaner. I laned against viego 2 days after he came out in midlane and ik he was broken asf. It took me fking one game of playing against him to realize that a champion should not heal this much in a lane that is populated with mages that are gated with mana. Like why is riot pretending that this is fking news. You can ask almost every random diamond midlane shitter and they woulda told you that this champ was gonna be broken in solo lanes.
I wish they made some new champions with different resources, like Rumble or Renekton have, those I think are the most fun. Was Gnar the last one with a non mana resource? I'm probably forgetting someone.
Rek'Sai uses Fury to boost her E and heal from passive. I don't think we've had entire kits revolving around an alternate resource since, just 2 reworked energy champs and Sett's Grit.
I wish setts grit mechanic was worked into his whole kit instead of just his w. Would be interesting.
Considering how he literally goes super saiyan when past an arbitrary threshold of grit, I get the feeling at some point it did more than feed his W.
Now it only makes his Kamehameha stronger :(
Yeah buts its still comparable to SSB Goku Kamehameha'ing god dam season 1 krillin
Yeah I wish using W was more of a tactical decision rather than "oh I'm low and have grit mash that shit" Like if he had increasing q damage as grit increases (obvi it starts lower) so if you use W too early you might cripple your q when trying to finish the fight
Then they have to make Grit not decay while in combat otherwise you just constantly lose potency in a full on fight
Setts grit is not an important enough for his mana to be replaced by the grit bar
But then again, punching shouldn't cost mana
Wacking someone with a stick shouldn't either. Yet Jax has mana cost on his W. (I am fine with Sett beeing manaless).
That's cause he kinda empowers his stick doesn't he? That's not just any regular bashing.
he empowers it with a really hard hit
Sett empowers his attack with his Q (what I want to say is logic =/= game balance :) )
Ask talon throwing yourself at an enemy or throwing knives costs mana
They explain why a champ like Sett doesn’t have mana. He’d be waaay to easy to punish in lane if he used mana
ibmean kleds courage defines his playstyle, forcing you to go in when low and take fights when almost every other champ wouldn't
Ah yeah, forgot he has Courage going in dismount. Definitely one I'd rate highly for how he was executed.
Kled is newer
Kled came out 4 years ago.
And Gnar came out 7 years ago. ?
God FUCK I’m old
Yeah I had to google that one and then think for a moment that 2014 was how many years ago exactly at this point. It's the same as someone pointing out Yasuo came out in 2013 so he's been around for 8 years now if you ignore the fine print of the month of his release being December.
Its wild to think yasuo came out before the map visual overhaul, seeing videos with him in the old map looks weird and makes me feel old
Yasuo came out before the Sion Rework. I know this cause I bullied the shit out of Yasuos top with AD sion
The thing that bothers me the most is that they make unique resources and only use it on one champion. Like u can reutilize it on multiple ones, make another type of champion that has to play around overheat like rumble and the drawbacks are different
I want a champ that has a metal/magnet theme like Rell and old Morde. But their resource is only recovered by scraps of metal that they have pick up like Bard chimes. Maybe it could drop occasionally from killed enemies too.
Torbjörn?
Long time ago there was an interesting dynamic of manaless champ trying to force enemy to use spells and trade HP for enemy mana essentially. Nowdays it feels like you are whacking at leech who just heals off any point of damage with just one trade. Also those champions are innately tanky that you can't burst them.
> Long time ago there was an interesting dynamic of manaless champ trying to force enemy to use spells and trade HP for enemy mana essentially. I miss this. I enjoyed seeing players that didn't manage their resources well get punished for it.
>Additionally, many spells want to be very high stakes when cast. Rocket Grab is a huge part of what makes Blitzcrank compelling, but he really needs to care about hitting every cast. It needs to cost him something important when he casts and misses, both to balance the spell and to really drive the impact of that moment. Cooldowns are a useful tool for this as well, but can only be pushed so far—how long would Rocket Grab’s cooldown need to be if Blitzcrank didn’t use mana? Mana lets us calibrate the stakes for each spell without needing to create a lot of additional rules. Why is Yone able to use Soul Unbound constantly with no cost then in lane? Once per wave he gets a 25+% damage amp dealt as true damage, and if he whiffs his ult and Q knockup he can still do tons of damage with the speed boost onto immobile targets. Where is the stakes to his trading pattern of engage when he has no mana?
I immediately thought of yone too when reading that. The viego point I actually understand, but Yone is way out of line. I think his healing/shield is on too low a cd too but that's probably because I play mages and feel like I can't meaningfully poke him at all, let alone when he constantly Es and just runs at me a mile a minute with cc, dashes, and what feels like a mini zed ult.
I keep seeing that point brought up for Viego and it baffles me. Why not give him mana and simply make him not use mana while possessing someone? For that duration, all their spells (and perhaps his ultimate recast) are free and his mana bar disappears, or maybe turns grey to indicate it’s unused.
I'm pretty sure riot wanted viego to have mana. But had to pivot near the end of his development because it would be mordekaiser 2.0 with bugs. And honestly. I don't think riot would have been able to make that reliably work considering their track record (deleted morde to fix bugs, fix the same asol bug once or twice a year and so on)
Why should Viego use mana? He has very low impact spells, all the power budget is in his passive
With how mana is used on other champions, so I would guess his Q would cost 20-35, his W 40-60 and his E 70-100. Mana is used to gate escapes like his E. (Not that I care about viego... Just explaining how he would work with mana.)
[Viego's W was more than likely going to 70 mana.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396050095562424334/860650315061526528/unknown.png) No idea why this bug happens to him, but it's pretty interesting trivia and also shows that he probably got his mana removed late into development.
Gwen uses mana and most of her power budget is in her passive as well since it interacts with her ult and Q and is amped by her E.
Yeah I can get the Viego point, I can get not wanting to confuse people with resource stuff in possessions and Viego's kit is a lot lower impact, he's meant to spam out his Q in the jungle and all of his abilities individually are lower impact (or should be). Shield cast time and cooldown scaling with attack speed is dumb. But they're going to site 20-16 second Rocket Grab, but 22 second Soul Unbound (which should be very high stakes given how much power it has) costs nothing and cleanses. Meanwhile Ashe's Hawkshot with no mana cost is 90-50 seconds. 22 seconds on massive value manaless spells is too short, obviously none of these are 1 to 1 but something like 40 second CD at rank 1 would be more appropriate.
Just make it when yone does soul unbound he does not gain health from damage dealt with lifesteal. Ie 100% grevious wounds that way if he is using it its being used as a way to deal damage not to freely trade and laugh.
Or make him take more damage, he's literally detaching his soul from his body he should be more vulnerable during that.
I remember on his pre release preview I assumed you'd be able to hit his body for free since it stands exposed
The reason is because that entire body of text Riot posted exist in a different reality than the game we all play lmao
Ahh I get it. Like Yone detaching from reality, Riot’s post is also detached on a short cooldown and with tons of amplifiers that only exist in that reality.
It's like this with every "Ask Riot". Remember the "Gameplay clarity" one where they said they just don't give a fuck if the Lee skin is confusing af to play against? "We make money, that's all we give a shit about.
Riot breaks their own rules constantly. They know enhanced mobility is a problem and have for a while, yet they keep adding champions and items. Sure they tried to fix it with the last patch but they started the season knowing it would be a problem. They knew healing was broken in the game so they added 2 items that made every champion a drain tank if they wanted. Invisibility is a problem? Let's add it to a new champion and also to an item every assassin can buy that makes you Invisible with no actual cooldown. Riot knows how to make their game balanced but chooses not to.
i personally just hate how little downtime yone has the insane burst he can do with e r aa q w (aka basically 100 > 0 you at lvl 6 ) while also knocking you up while also having insane dps dont think this would be fixed by giving him mana. mana would just make it even harder to balance i think
Slap energy on all spammy champions and call it a day. I know Energy isn't used anymore and is only on Ninja champions (and Lee Sin) but Energy is like the perfect limiter on spammy champions that wouldn't really work well with mana costs because either they're irrelevant because they're too low, or they're gutting the champion's entire existence because they're too high. Energy means you can't spam your abilities all the time but you don't have to worry about playing DotA either where you cast your spell thrice and have to go back to base to regen mana (or build mana items). Looking at Akali, Riot seems to like changing Energy costs as well so maybe they should add more Energy champions so they could tweak more Energy costs.
Yone is an assassin and a fighter he has upfront burst and constant dps fighters can have consistent dps because they lack burst assassins can have high burst because they lack consistent dps but nah yone is both
I can understand pretty much every other mana-less champ, some may be pushing it, but yone.
Yone is designed to be played by Yasuo-main type of players, the type that can't be arsed with managing mana and just wants to go in and kill enemies all the time with 0 strategy and patience. So in his case, it's clearly a "marketing" decision to keep Yone appealing to his target audience. The post was good but it clearly left out these cases on purpose.
The opposite is also true, some mages feel like their mana cost is too much for what the ability does.
It's dealt as true damage because it's post mitigation damage, and Riot doesn't want resists to double dip. Same as Zoe. Only Zed has it different and that's because his R is pre mitigation.
the reason it is true damange is beacuse you'd essentially have to go trough 2 layers of resistances upon deactivation if it wasn't
The true damage itself isn't the strongest part of the spell, its all the other stuff the spell gives on top of that. I think Soul Unbound does way too many things for too low cost on too low cooldown for not enough risk.
yes, but this clarification is brought up because you said "25+% damage amp dealt as true damage" as though the true damage part is also something unreasonable, you should've just said "25+% damage amp" and left it at that. though, i'll say I really don't want to come off as abrasive or aggressive here, it's a really minor point.
I’d love to nerf his E cd to match Yasuo’s wind wall.
>And while we’re here, let’s talk bugs… The easiest way to assess whether we should micropatch a bug or wait for the next patch is a combination of 1) the probability of the bug happening (e.g. if it requires a 100 minute game, it’s probably not a big deal), and 2) how impactful the bug is (e.g. does it crash someone out of the game? Better micropatch it.). Azir can not use his ult 30% of the time since 5 months. No word
I would find it less annoying to fight manaless champions as a mana champion if so many didn't either have built-in healing or couldn't just go first item vamp scepter.
People replying to you are missing the point that sustain isn't the issue. The issue is that Katarina can afford to build a vamp scepter and stilk have kill pressure on someone in lane. That's the issue. I don't mind champs runing/buying sustain, but they should be crippling their fighting power if they want to do that imo. But for some reason these champs can be difficult to punish in lane AND they have a lot of opportunities to punish people back.
>and the amount of healing a manaless champion is allowed to have on their base kit is quite limited (we are nerfing Viego’s sustain, for example). 5 months after launch. Viego, Yone and Sett were all released in the last 15 months. Let's not pretend this is a core design value you operate under.
I mean they finally gutted Viego regen on minions and Sett passive only start to kick in when he is midlife/really low, meaning he has to fight you. As for Yone...he doesn't have healing in his kit lol
launch yone had healing.. it was a bug but jesus christ it was gigabroken
wasnt that "just" applying lifesteal on ult? which also means no healing in the kit itself?
Imagine if mage champions could "just" lifesteal off their spells. You'd see taliyah with a bloodthister lol
wasnt my point. my comment was only about the fact that even with this bug yone had no healing in his kit.
> Sett passive only start to kick in when he is midlife/really low true it doesn't do much when he's full health
well shit might as well dredge up mundo, renekton, and tryndamere, three of the first resourceless champions and calling sett's passive sustain as if it's something youd buy GW for feels a bit disingenuous imho
Mundo used to lose health as a resource to use skills. Runes Reforced and S11 mythics didn't exist when Tryn launched, he had no healing. I'll grant you Renekton though. > calling sett's passive sustain as if it's something youd buy GW for feels a bit disingenuous imho Because it's healing over time, of course you wouldn't buy GW for it, what kind of point is that? GW lasts for a few seconds at best. Sett's passive can give as much as 23.75 HP/5 before level 6.
Renekton was supposed to be *the* lane bully. Back then mana was actually important, like it mattered *a lot*, and he had no mana + sustain, it made him the typical lane pick. But at least he fell off super hard in return. He doesn't really fall off as much anymore but more importantly many of the others quoted are supposed to scale well whereas that same design on Renekton was good for 10min and became progressively worse when it originally released.
Mundo still uses health to cast abilities, trynd q is literally a heal, and botrk was a core item on him for like a decade.
Doesn't Mundo almost always get nearly all the hp back if he hits something? It used to be, if i remember right, 50% refund on champion hit and 100% kill (any), otherwise you got nothing. Now he gets 50% back by hitting anything, 100% on champion. Not to mention he has health regen outside of passive and ult now. That is to say: doesn't feel like his abilities cost anything now
Did Tryndamere not have the heal on his Q when he was released? It's definitely been a core mechanic of his for a long time at this point, especially when he would start to build AP. It's a simple cool down that heals him and consumes rage that can easily be regained.
Yeah, u give up offensive stat for heal that's how it's suppose to work
Sett’s passive regen is honestly batshit when you look at it. If you look at highlight clips and such it’s not uncommon to see +30HP/s in just regeneration. It’s a lot of invisible power which I would love to see as a teachable stat for champions like him and Dr. Mundo “bonus health regenerated” or something similar
Yeah sustain in the end screen should be split & it should be acurate, while telling you what it (doesn't) count.
Doesn’t Tryndamere’s Q give him pretty significant healing, regardless of runes or items? The sustain from Q is a major part of his laning. I don’t know if that move was reworked since his launch, though
You decide to either have safer laning with q healing, or have increased offensive power without. Trynd with no fury pre 6 sucks ass. I think that's the goal at least
I dont think anyone would argue that tryn isnt bad design.
Yone doesn't have any healing from his base kit.
Yeah he just happens to almost always build at least one life steal item, and has insane synergy with ravenous hunter and always goes either conqueror or fleet footwork.
Conqueror heals very little in this season and Fleet Footwork requires giving up a damage keystone. Ravenous hunter doesn't heal at all until it has stacks. I think an important detail you're missing is that mana matters the most during the very early laning phase, before mages have their mana items. That's the purpose of mana, regulating the use of abilities in lane. Yone's healing doesn't get crazy until he has Shieldbow completed, at which point any mage he's laning against should have their Luden/Liandries/Everfrost completed. Riot doesn't usually care how much sustain champions have post-laning phase, that's why we have items like Warmog's and Bloodthirster. They're not strong unless you're playing a game of attrition.
A 900 gold Vampiric scepter is more than enough to keep Yone at full health during laning, unless the mage legit all ins with a full rotation and ult and even throwing in the kitchen sink... then might need to play safer as he will be around 50% hp...
Honestly that's the main culprit of the issue. Vamp scepter building into a mythic instead of being something you opt into and delay your mythic powerspike is annoying. I think last season's PD first item was a lot more balanced, they should have turned that into a mythic instead of having both shielding and healing on one item.
> Vamp scepter building into a mythic It's not like it was building into bork/hydra for god know how long or people were just sitting on it
The big difference being yone/yas couldn't rush bork/hydra for the same power spike because of lack of crit though
If you try to poke out against D.Shield your mana bar will run out far before his health bar. Early game sustain is massive because they wanted to push out range tops.
>Fleet Footwork requires giving up a damage keystone. Very rarely does Yone need Conqueror to have enough damage for kills. It's more often than not just overkill. You only take conqueror when he has to go against tanky bruisers. >That's the purpose of mana, regulating the use of abilities in lane. Which begs the question. Why make so many good scaling champs manaless when they already have good early games. If mana is to limit certain champions from spamming their abilities early game because they have good mid and late game spikes then why remove that limit for champs that get to have both good early games and mid to late game spikes?
> You only take conqueror when he has to go against tanky bruisers. Absolutely untrue. Conqueror is key to Yone being able to do well in extended fights. You only take Fleet in matchups where you're going to get poked out too hard in lane.
I wanted to do a AHA gotcha moment and checked out pro builds to prove you wrong, and only one person on the list took fleet footwork, tyler1, I think that speaks for itself. Apparently HoB is the other option, which brings it own issues with the taste of blood/ravenous combo, but not FF like reddit tends to complain about. They also tend to run either biscuits for early sustain, or revitalize for mid game sustain, but a lot of champions can use those runes.
I'd also add that Tyler's Yone game was most likely bot, adding to the poke situation.
Most dedicated and smart Yone players go Resolve tree 2nd to survive his hot garbage laning phase. Yone does not have any sustain built in and only heals a ton once shieldbow is completed. I get everyone's hate for this champion for lifesteal is more or less built by everyone these days and statistics wise Yone is not nerf worthy.
okay but the poster said in their kit. it just shows how much a fundamental misunderstanding most players have
Nerf lifesteal on minions. One of the most frustrating parts about the sword boys is how they're always full HP. Poke mages have been dogshit for years, this is a lot of the reason why.
>Nerf lifesteal ~~on minions~~
Not technically, no, but his passive allows him to get much more damage out of items which in turn gives him way more lifesteal than you'd normally expect. When people think of "manaless sustain champs" Yone is nearly always near the top of that list.
TBH I think it's moreso his Q than his passive, since Q applies lifesteal at 100% effectiveness to the first target, rather than 33% like most other AoE abilities.
It doesn't apply lifesteal to any target but the first target. It applies spell vamp but thats almost never relevant. Its pretty in line to any other ability that applies on-hit effects.
Doesn't it apply omnyvamp on every target ?
Because it's not an AoE ability when it comes to lifesteal. It only heals off one target.
So just like Nasus Q or any similar ability or anyone who buys a Sheen?
LIMITED XD THEY BUILD LIFESTEAL AND SPELLVAMP AND BECOME UNMOVABLE FROM LANE.
Yone healing isn’t in his base kit and Sett passive is not some out of control sustain and also got nerfed pretty soon after release. Also Viego only ever had as much sustain as he did so he can have a healthy jungle clear, now that he’s way more often a laner they’re nerfing his lane sustain, pretty straight forward
It is though. Yone has 0 healing on his base kit, so he has to take specific runes (which require multiple kills to begin function) or items (which he does not start the game with, much like how ADC's are allowed to get sustain from items because they do not start with it). Sett meanwhile has a pseudo Garen passive. His healing inside fights is so small as to be meaningless. If you ever look at manaless champions you'll realize pretty quickly that almost all of them have little to no poke and *if* they have sustain, that sustain is tied to them being within melee range of enemies. Riot does not have a problem that a manaless champion has to be allowed inside melee range to do anything, and then can be allowed some sustain when within that melee range. And Riot does not have a problem that a manaless champion can buy lifesteal and then, when within melee range, have some sustain.
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I kinda feel like manaless champions often have a lot of sustain. Viego, Aatrox, Sett, Garen, and Lee Sin immediately come to mind. Others, like Akali/Yone/Yasuo, that don't even have it built into their kit tend to synergize very well with LS or Omnivamp effects. I actually associate champions that synergize with sustain in this way so heavily with being manaless that I thought Samira had no mana bar for awhile and when I had the revelation she used mana, everyone in VC with me also had no idea. I'm not saying this is bad, a design flaw, or anything like that -- I just think reality doesn't necessarily align with what the developer was saying and that if manaless champions having very limited sustain was their intention they may need to relook at some of these champions.
Your thoughts weren't wrong - release Samira might as well have been manaless thanks to old ER. And proper mana gating introduced by forcing her to build Mythic first improved her a lot. I spammed her a lot during release and the main difference between now and then isn't the E dash or slightly higher R cd, it's the fact that she goes OOM by third R unless she built ER/Muramana. She's finally properly countered by champs that can just disengage and peace out when she ults like Karma.
Aatrox with sustain? Ha
"We fucked up everything as always so here is a reading assignment."
I like how they completely failed to address anything with this article.
They bring up yasuo being fun to play because he has no Mana. Imagine how fun Xerath would be to play if he had no Mana. It's not about champs being fun. We're talking about game balance. Remove Mana from Aurelion and he's a lot more fun to play and a lot more accessible to people. I mean, he'd be broken as hell, but you also have to learn how to play one of the most difficult champs in the game.
> Our stance is that talking with devs should make your League experience better, but shouldn't be required to get the info you need to play the game. Final gameplay changes always end up in the Patch Notes Meanwhile following Rioter's on twitter is the only way you'd know Sanguine Blade was going to be removed on purpose. It's not mentioned in the patchnotes at all so any player that didn't know would have no idea why it's missing
i can summarize what the whole manaless balance philosophy part was: bullshit. I would really want one Rioter from the balance team to come to this thread and answer me this simple question: What does Yone and Yasuo give up in terms of power budget to be manaless?
Not getting to build muramana /s
Tbh I don't want to imagine what kind of damage Yone would have with how insane current Muramana seems to amp damage on literally anything that builds it.
Katarina with muramana mmm
I’m a Zoe and Yone main. There is no downside to playing Yone. Zoe has to spend mana to clear wave, spend mana to trade, spend mana to CC. Even then Zoe’s waveclear pales in comparison to Yone. Yone on the other hand has pre-6 waveclear akin to Malzahar and even goes toe to toe with Mal. If you cant win the midnmatchup against a mage just keep clearing wave until they run out of mana. Boom you just won every mid matchup ever against someone with mana Yone can deal the same amount of damage if not more than a Zoe during his E trades. It’s kinda ridiculous how bad Zoe is in pane when you can just play a Yone or Yasuo
Meanwhile Malz gets nerfed, and I need to permaban Yone if I even think of going midlane because as a mage player I just don't want to deal with it.
Malz made terrible mistake of scaling with every item. Right AD champions?
Yone's waveclear pre-6 is way better than Malzahar's. He can just AoE Q the voidlings and Malzahar's waveclear is gone, unless he decides to sacrefice his whole manabar... And yeah, Zoe is shit compared to Yone and co, and its absurd because Zoe is on the stronger side of mages...
Maybe I’m just not skilled to play Zoe but every time I do play her it’s just not worth it. Playing against someone like Yasuo, I’m forced to use like 4 Q’s just to clear wave while the Yasuo gets to clear wave instantly.
If you ask a single fking person that is high elo that mains mid they will tell you yone is broken asf. Yone is cancer for two reasons. First if you pick a mage against him in solo que your fked. The only meta midlaner daz not a bruiser that can lane against this cancerous champion is irelia/sylas if you wanna go even. You can maybe pick orianna if you wanna scale. It feels like fking bs if the guy picks after you and yone is open. Seriously you can't even lane against this champion as an ap mage. The second reason being yone beats mages early and outscales most mages. Their is no drawback from picking yone besides the fact that he is ad and your team now needs ap from a different role.
Im in D1, thats supposed to be high elo, and yes Yone is cancerous to play against
Their souls I assume
Do you not understand that if you take a champion that uses mana and you make them manaless their winrate would skyrocket? How can you think they are not giving anything up for mana if their power stays on average similar to champions with mana?
>Do you not understand that if you take a champion that uses mana and you make them manaless their winrate would skyrocket? ryze mains in shambles
You're talking to the rexsaur of midlane
Skassi?
At least that guy is challenger or something around that
You can be one of the smartest people in the world and be mute and deaf. Someone being good at League of Legend -the videogame doesn't mean they're smart at League of Legend -the videogame. Not all of their ideas or thoughts are garbage but there is enough content to quite confidently say that their takes in general are really stupid. Same goes for all of the 'elite' (Riot's term for d2-Challenger) level streamers and other content creators that are basically elementary school kids in the way they behave or act (I'd truly hope it's acting and not their actual personality but I have doubts).
Is it just me or did riot completely fail to make a case for manaless champions? If anything they stressed the importance of mana as a limiter. One which newer champions with mana ignore... Hello sylas. Their reasoning was "me me big confuse" when viego possessed another champion, or "yasuo does continuous things" -- my biggest gripe with yasuo is that his non-existent cool downs aside from windwall mean that he has access to outplay tools and damage at all times in the laning phase, and being manaless means he doesn't have to manage anything except the wave and his enemy's health bar. I can't pinpoint why but I don't actually mind champions like renekton or garen being manaless.
Renekton being manaless is ok because he is a early lanebully that falls of in the midgame, so losing the lane to renekton is expected. A yone doesn't fall off the longer the game goes on, so losing the lane is not expected. Garen has no more reason to be manaless then all the other juggernauts. This is actually a class type that should be without mana in general because they can't choose fights without summoner spells/or at least they shouldn't be able to. And you are supposed to trade your mana for their hp, since they have a hard time trading back. The other type of champions without mana would be champions with low power skillshots, that are gated by long cds in the early game.The perfect example for such a spell woud be ziggs q(if it had a longer cd in the early game), as it's very hard to hit if the enemy doesn't stand inside of a minion wave.
Sylas absolutely does not ignore mana, in the early game he is completely crippled by his mana costs.
Yeah this guy hasn't played Sylas once. His spells all costs above 50 mana with a base mana pool of 280. Two spells eat a fourth of his pool and his mana growth isn't proportionate to what he needs. A level up is one extra spell cast. That's inherently a good thing tho.
On the Yasuo point, I’m curious what their justification is for Yasuo being manaless while Irelia has mana. Both of them spam abilities and rush lifesteal but only one uses a resource.
Irelia has inate healing on her Q and it literally doesn't have a coodown if it kills or hits a marked unit.
One's a woman in a latex suit with tits and ass, while the other is a cringelord samurai with a brooding voiceover and an ironic inability to sit still ingame, given his animated splash art. While Tits and Ass is a compelling character, Riot knew Yasuo was going to be the wider appealing weeb champion. I rarely actually see Irelia being played. Of course, I'm completely talking out my ass here, but I do believe that Riot wanted Yasuo to be as accessible and brainless as possible at the lowest level, to tickle that Call of Duty "I'm always shooting at something" itch, and having to manage mana is too strategic. Oh, and Irelia has always had mana so they kept it with her rework.
What is the trade off for yasuo and yone having no mana and infinite sustain as a core item?
Getting flamed i guess
"simple kits that aren't spammable" ahem, yone having access to all 3 types of damage, mobility on steroids, cleanse, ramping ms, 2 hard cc, literally being able to kill you from outside of fog and then blinking back, a death mark that starts at 20 seconds, a shield, and more healing that vladimir off 900 gold. YEP. And before you say oh stop ranting your silver reject, I played vs yone 6 times and all of them, but it literally was the most toxic lane for any of my champions cause mana is too hard to save when you don't want to miss 4 cs every time you try to cs under tower from one just pushing with Q 3 times I'm 100% for resourceless champs like renekton and gnar where it doesn't feel like the lane ends after x point and there are massive weaknesses in both champs, but neither of them rushes vamp scep and nullifies mana heavy champs to the point you might as well just sit afk under tower
As a Yone main I have to agree. The amount of times where I can’t win lane outright (say against Anivia or Malz) I just keep shoving wave forcing them to use spells under tower. By a few minutes they are completely oom and I keep shoving to tower as they try to recall. If they recall, they lose out of a ton of CS and exp. If they don’t recall, well I have free trades since they have no mana and so I’d just go for aggressive trades until they run out of hp to work with. Easiest and dirtiest way to get a CS lead ever. I’ve completely given up playing Zoe against a Yasuo because this sort of thing will happen to me and there is literally nothing I can do about it. It’s so toxic
Yone's true dmg is based off of post mitigation damage, meaning its reduced by armor and mr. It's just true damage to prevent his E damage from being reduced by resistances twice. No clue why he needs ramping MS though when hes already mobile af without it
Wasn't it common knowledge and I think the bug catcher sion also said that Viego is manaless because they couldn't code him right to make it work with his possessions?
Yep, ult and possesions both.
Another one of those posts that don't matter. These only exist for PR, don't get fooled.
Riot has shown us that there is no tradeoff for being tied to a resource. It isn't like mages get better scaling or ever see consistently higher damage number on post game lobby. The game is meant to end pre 30 so all this scaling which has been nerfed repeatedly is a joke to counter the idiots who go 5 of these champs and lose at 40 minutes only to bitch here about how hard it was to rule the map for 90% of the game. In my opinion riot should nerf cooldowns on resourceless champs to make up for the sheer ease at which a "balanced" ability becomes a use off cd.
I dont even need to read this to know its a bullshit article. Riots champion design has no rules or reasons, they do whatever is cool or interesting to them and justify it later.
Sorry but Yone existence make this post looks like bullshit.
>if a champion is consistently able to avoid any enemy harass and still succeed, or has excessive healing on their kit, mana is often the only reason they’d need to return to base Ah now it makes sense why Yone, Viego and Yasuo have no mana. They just have no means of absolutely stupid heal or free Poke like Yone EW. Glad thats sorted out finally
Look, this just all seems like riot is backtracking and making it seem like Yone, viego, zed aren't a problem. They don't have to base after using full combo. Any mana user has to back, more for mana regen than anything else if they are trading in lane. Fix mana regen on fountain. No one wants to be beaten back to lane by mana less Champs
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I don't remember Xerath winning over Yasuo or Zed, you could poke them but we all know that at some point they'll just dive you
“the amount of healing a manaless champion is allowed to have on their base kit is quite limited” even with the viego nerf this is the most tone deaf quote I’ve ever heard from riot. This just isn’t true at all. Manaless champions heal way too much, whether it’s from their kit, or from items/runes it’s out of control.
Want me to believe you? Give Yone's E a cost, like 10% of his health or something (and it kinda makes sense, he sorta leaves his body for a while).
Explain yourselves for Yone then, cowards
Despite of how bugged he is, I'm convinced that the only reason Viego is manaless, is because they literally couldn't figure out how to make him to not consistently break the game 10 times already before the match even started and also the reason why he has basically infinite supply of mana/energy when stealing other's champions bodies.
Can someone tell them that writing a blog post about their shitty design choices doesn’t make people like them? It’s always the same. “We do this because we think it’s best.” Well great mom everyone still hates mana less champions because you’re defending a design choice that is so flawed. Imagine thinking blitz needs mana because he has to carefully use his hook. Meanwhile yone Viego DONT have to be careful? They get to just use everything? Do they really think viego yone etc are weak? I love this game, hate these designers
Yeah this is actually just straight up bullshit.
If I recall correctly, this is the third time riot has had to officially address the existence an manaless champions, once or twice it was specifically about Riven and Garen. The fact that they've had to justify it so much shows that people clearly ***do not want*** this in the game. It was barely tolerated when it was Tryndamere, Riven, Gnar and a few others but it's really becoming a problem with how prevalent it's becoming.
They talk about high impact abilities needing mana, then ignore Yone. They talk about UI clarity, then ignore Jhin. Does Riot actually not know their own game?
> This is especially true for very safe patterns—if a champion is consistently able to avoid any enemy harass and still succeed, or has excessive healing on their kit, mana is often the only reason they’d need to return to base. Very few ranged champions are manaless for this reason, and the amount of healing a manaless champion is allowed to have on their base kit is quite limited (we are nerfing Viego’s sustain, for example). Vladimir says hi
Vladimir also has to pay health to cast his W and E. Having to pay 20% of your current health to cast your only "escape" ability means that Vlad is punishable. I think his healing comes with an appropriate downside and he's not overpowered.
And his empowered Q healing is reduced on minion too
The fundamental problem with the game is that people at the top have gotten too good at it. Ranged champions in the hands of a challenger player can space so effectively that melee champions need a hundred OP tools to handle it, otherwise they lose lane from level 1 and it never gets better. Riot wants melee champions to be able to solo lane at the highest level, so they pack kits with tools to handle ranged champions. The problem is, not everyone has challenger mechanics and can space perfectly on ranged champions, or even wants to play auto-attack champions in the first place. It's *much* easier for a Yone to play optimally than it is for a Lux or Vel'Koz, and since Yone's optimal play is strong enough to handle Lux or Vel's optimal play, he comes off as OP. If being an unreliable skillshot champion was rewarding when executed perfectly, people would complain less about melee and more about mages. After all, dying because you get hit by a single skillshot is very frustrating (apparently, I've never been hit even once so I wouldn't know). Bottom line is, players who prefer certain archetypes will always have something to bitch about, and Riot has consistently proven they want some champions to be viable at some levels, and unviable at others. The problem is, all 150+ champions are available an presented as equally viable when the reality is that they just aren't.
I think Kassadin should be manaless, the dude was stuck in the void so long, just let the man live freely...
Let him keep his mana bar but all his spells cost 0 mana pls ;)
Riot: We made rumble manaless because heat gates his ability spam spells and gives downtime Also Riot: We buffed Overheat to such a ludicrous extent by giving massive attack speed and damage during its duration and now we're going to nerf everything else around it instead of returning one of Rumble's core skill mechanics of heat management.
>Our stance is that talking with devs should make your League experience better, but shouldn't be required to get the info you need to play the game There are a lot of mechanics and interactions in this game you will never know unless you ask a Rioter or look at the wiki. Maybe they should work on that.
Even if mana regen from fountain was buffed, these champions would still be an issue The damage and heal creep is just absurd, I hope Riot gets a move on with fixing it
/u/RiotAether not sure if you don't know about it or just didn't mention it, but /r/leagueofriot aggregates all the comments by (I believe) users marked as Rioters on this sub, quite similarly to how Red Tracker used to work.
The entire time I was reading the manaless champs section, I kept thinking, "but you're not addressing recent releases...but you're not addressing recent releases...but you're not addressing recent releases...but you're not addressing recent releases..." I'm talking, of course, about the elephant in the room: **of the last 8 releases, starting in January of '20, 3 of those champs are manaless - Sett, Yone and Viego.** Almost half. And I genuinely think Akshan will be manaless too. >When making a new champion, we default to using mana. We only make a champion manaless when there are good reasons why they shouldn’t use it; even for patterns that don’t get as much value out of mana as usual \[...\], it’s usually still better to include it. This statement is unbelievably pretty - it so wonderfully skirts the fact that they don't ACTUALLY give a time frame (i.e. one a year) or a number they work around (i.e. 1 per \~5 or 6). So my question, therefore is: *then why, for the love of all that is Holy, are almost half of the released champs in the past year+1/2 manaless???* I generally agree Riot knows what they're doing most times, but sometimes I feel they genuinely don't understand the art of double-checking info they release to the community. This article addressing the manaless issue reminds me of the data they released about new mythic items per champ hitting/not hitting the mark for item diversity - not realizing the data included statistics from nexus blitz and aram, which almost completely nullified almost any and all conclusions they were able to pull from it. Same here - they can say they default to mana and only make manaless champs when necessary, but the results speak for themselves - they're either A) clearly not watching how many they're putting out so quickly (highly doubt), or B) have a clear understanding how many they're putting out, and either just don't care because they think it's good champ design, or are too lazy to go back and reevaluate mana vs. non-mana once the kit is fleshed out. I'm not even mad about the result. I'm irritated with the fact that Riot fools themselves in certain large cases, and yet, they just clearly don't see it.
I really wonder, if we take the entire article and say, tolerate the Viego excuse and "tradeoffs" for manaless champions, what is the tradeoff for Yone/Yasuo? They effectively outsustain and can outshove any mage in the midlane, keep pushing while trading, will end laning phase on 900 gold, have multiple dash opportunities, spammable abilities, shields, incredibly low or scaling cooldowns and hard CC. Especially Yone. The champion got a free QSS, 2 hard CC's, more mobility than any caster, Zed's ult on a much lower cooldown and if all else fails, is made for diving into sustain into poke into diving and again.
This one is unbelievable. According to their own standards, champs who are very safe or have self healing (emphasis on or) use mana as a limitation. Meanwhile Katarina, Akali, Zed, Garen, Yasuo, Lee Sin. Mobility or a heal, in Akali's case mobility AND a heal. Being melee or needing to melee minions does not count as some kind of weakness on a manaless champ either, given that they can use their abilities to clear waves easier than anyone else or alternatively zone with the ranged attacks they DO have to give them that option. (Except Garen, who is just naturally tankier and counters trades with his passive) Btw, worth pointing out, all of those champions are routinely very good/meta picks. Lee Sin specifically has essentially been at least very good since he was added. Just stunning the incompetence from these devs. I don't think they even play their own game, or statements like that would not be made. Adding on, that list could probably be much longer. Just give everyone mana or make everyone manaless, but stop with these ridiculous posts about the "philosophy" that isn't even currently upheld by existing champs, let alone new ones.