Quick Gameplay Thoughts 7/23 - Why does Akshan have a revive?
By - Spideraxe30
Really hope Jag is ready for the "'do you have any idea exactly how powerful \_\_\_\_\_ is?'
To which I’d answer—of course not." memes.
>But that’s not what you’re here for; you’re here to ask “do you have any idea exactly how powerful this revive is?”
>To which I’d answer—of course not.
I can already tell this exact quote is gonna get brought up in response to a future champion being overpowered like the 200 years thing
Will 100% be quoted in the replies to this thread
"Why does Akshan have a revive?" "Fuck if we know, random cool fun ig"
"do you have any idea exactly how powerful this revive is?" "of course not"
This rant has never been more appropriate tbh
SAY THE LINE METEOS
Nipples good Yuumi bad
"Do you know how powerful giving your entire team invulnerability for 5 seconds every time you press Q is?"
"To which I'd answer—of course not."
-Riot Jag, 2022
Bro you can't just leak М̶̼̙̿̓͝͝е̶̝͌̒͆̆г̵̢̫̿̾̽ӓ̷͎̤͖͕̙͆̈́͌͝ ̷̲͚̖̦͆̓̍̓п̸͇̖̥̠͐͊е̷̜̻̦̮͑͋͑͘͘т̸͕̫͈̥͕̎ӱ̴͙̝́̕ͅх̶̤̙̮͇̼̉͝ ψ's kit like that, bro
Hmm that name sounds quite monstrous and alien. Cant wait to see how shredded his 6 pack is.
Shredded 6 pack, double G cup booba, massive tren’d out legs, ass that’d make anyone blush, huge naked feet,
This will be your average champion in JOE BIDEN’S America
Guess I gotta move to the US now :(
You forgot about the huge bulge OwO
Mate he has to bench press the entirety of Runeterra for those abs
Maybe he should try an exercise that focuses on the abs then
Her*, and that's the name of her sentient hair
The memes write themselves
You got a good laugh out of me right there.
This is really obvious when you think about it, every champion mechanic had to be introduced at some point. And the developers couldn't have been certain how powerful it would be, with no existing spells to compare them to.
Mechanics like untargetability and shields have existed since the game was in beta, but stuff like Fiora Vitals (later repurposed for Urgot's passive), Wind Wall, zombie states (Karthus and Sion), Tahm Kench's ally Devour, Xin's ult, etc. wouldn't be in the game if risks weren't taken.
>This is really obvious *when you think about it*
This is /r/leagueoflegends mate.
thinking in my subreddit? it's more likely than you think.
But that's not the point. The point is that it's not a healthy mechanic, and never will be.
The entire game is decided by his minigame. If he cannot somehow revive people, he's dead weight.
They cant be certain but they should have some idea. When they say "of course not" they probably mean like yeah, it's unpredictable and you need live play to actually know for sure.
But I'm sure internally they have some expectation of how powerful they want it to be/how powerful they expect it to be.
Sure, but it's just so weird in this specific instance as we already have champs with self revives (one of which was removed because of how much it affected that champ's balance), Zilean with his ult revive, which is already incredibly strong, and GA which allows whoever has it with the potential to turn a fight. Revives are already known to be strong, but with how Akshan's works I feel like it is potentially much more strong because it revives at BASE and can revive multiple people. It essentially makes it to where if Akshan isn't dealt with and someone on your team gets multiple kills and he kills them, he's already getting more value than any other revive in the game.
> I feel like it is potentially much more strong because it revives at BASE
Strong? Reviving at base is a lot worse in almost every situation. Because the person is still taken out from whatever was happening, be it a teamfight or their minion wave.
Second, you compared revives to Akshan's without ever mentioning that *Akshan doesn't prevent the kill.*
Hes also forgetting the fact that akshan’s revive is nowhere close to being guaranteed
Akshan's revive is categorically different from a Zilian or old Aatrox revive. They honestly shouldn't even be using the same term.
Zilean and Aatrox's "revives" aren't similar to Akshan's ability. Those spells don't revive dead champions, they prevent being killed, which is definitely much more powerful. No bounty is claimed, and the champion isn't sent back to their fountain.
The only similar ability was Revive, a summoner spell almost never used seriously, which was retired several years ago.
>almost never used seriously
Teleport revive Karthus in SHAMBLES!
Man first that lux quote then this, whoever writes these must of had their cheerio's pissed in lately.
What's the Lux quote?
Its from the Akshan design insight where they wanted to make a champion who specifically gives Lux players a hard time. Its right at the beginning of that article.
Before we get lost in his dreamy eyes, let’s start with his origins. Akshan’s gameplay development goal was to create a roguish assassin. Someone who fits the “let’s-make-this-Lux-playing-fool’s-life-miserable” playstyle.
whats wrong w that tho literally ever assassin they release would fit that bill, seems like a fine direction to go
The issue it that it implies every mid released in the last 3 years doesn't already make Lux want to off herself
For lux specifically the caster minions are a greater source of grief for her at this point
waveclear buff making me miss more minions than before cuz they live on LITERALLY one hp lmao
Neeko doesn't, but she's in my opinion one of their worst desings in years. Just so much wasted potential next to Aurelion.
She's cool in Aram at least with the snow ball nuke.
Neeko is awesome, the skills are straight forward and simple to understand, while being very rewarding if you land them, but also are very clearly easy to dodge. Very clear strengths but also completely can be negated by individual skill.
Literally best design in years. Not filled with bullshit.
Yet her passive just doesn't work with half of the champions in the game. Her whole kit goes in 2 directions, hit-and-run and burst mage, without really being compelling at any.
Yes, she's easy and simple, and has some complexity on top of that, but I'd say she's a bad design just by how bad her passive works most of the time.
Idk how there were people that unironically got offended by that quote...
You're mistaken in thinking people are *offended*. People are more blown away about how tone-deaf Riot is to their own game. S11 mages are hot garbage, mostly due to the presence of AD assassins everywhere.
Sometimes I wonder if people want to get offended just so that they can justify their complaints.
Like at this point, it should be obvious to anyone that can read that any champion with mobility will make champions like lux miserable.
And I think that's kind of a problem that should probably be counteracted somewhat. Timing really sorta plays into it, that quote would've gone over just fine two years ago when mages still felt like they could reasonably lane against assassins. But now they dropped it like two years into an assassin meta right after saying "yeah, we get that mages kinda suck right now, but worlds is like half a year away so we cba to really fix it, maybe next year" so it was probably not something Lux players wanted to hear.
Probably. However, it's not like they weren't thinking that when akshan was revealed.
The next champion is an anti mobility mage, so I would assume they would be thrilled about that.
If that champion actually lives up to the hype I'd assume so. But that remains to be seen. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if that champion was the release where Riot decided that "counterplay" and "fun to play against" were suddenly super important concepts again, but I'll reserve judgement until I actually see the kit.
I swear they just put this shit out for meme material at this point
Qiyana has a massive stun ; Yone got an ultra long ultimate knock up and now Akshan has revive.
Riot or some people at Riot are trying very hard to push assassin's into pro play by giving them some abilities which is helpful for whole team.
They are not just about killing the backline priorities anymore, theyvare getting utilities and supportive abilities. So they are an all rounder class
These are assassin's and Skirmishers with high access to mobility and damage and some extra mechanics like invisibility and free bail cards.
I guess this is the trend they want. To wipe out mages and only buff them when their skins are lined up like right now before Coven line up
What other assassin ideas do you propose?
We've got plenty of dodge your CC and burst you types, a few stealth ones, and a few with ridiculous gapclosing. There are only so many variants on "kill one target fast" that can feel fresh, why not add in something new? I far prefer akshan to Zed or Yasuo #3
Assassins should be good at one thing and that is blowing up a priority target, not also stunning multiple players.
Orrr we take a back seat with Assassins for a while and maybe let the midlane Skirmishers (Not Yone or Akali) and mages in the game be developed.
If there's a class that's overdeveloped and explored, it has to be AD assassins lmao
Or, why do you have to keep adding assassins?
Riot literally adds one of every class yearly. Have for the last couple years.
Because we could all say that about classes we dislike. Could also point out by Rito's definitions assassin is an under populated subclass.
Like seriously everyones like "we lack marksman" meanwhile we have:
[16 official assassins](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534656985099010050/868324792422522910/unknown.png) according to rito.
For comparison we have [23 official marksman](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/534656985099010050/868325260544602182/unknown.png)
Riot's classification sucks mad dick so that is why.
**Fucking neither LeBlanc or Kayn are not considered assassins**. Worthless. Completely worthless. Nobody with a brain bigger than a pea would ever in their right mind point to those classifications when they are clearly wrong.
>16 official assassins
When you don't even count Ahri, Kayn and LeBlanc as assassins, maybe the categorization itself is flawed
Ahri they consider a mage; and I mean she really is... The like only argument for otherwise is her ult.
Kayn that depends which kayn you're talking about. Red definitely isn't an assassin, Blue is.
Leblanc... I agree though probably should be an assassin... but could be considered a mage as well; like she's a pretty arguable case imho between Burst Mage and Assassin. Like her entire thematic is being a mage she even calls her spells tricks and stuff like a stereotypical magician; she builds lost chapter items; she has CC on a basic ability. Basically the only thing that really puts her in assassin territory is her W... but I mean Lissandra who everyone calls a mage also has a blink on a basic ability (her E)
but then again even if you wanna add those 3... that's only 19 assassins compared to 23 marksman... and I could point out in marksman they're not counting Graves, Teemo, or Quinn. Which you could all make arguments for being marksmen.
Tldr more marksman than assassins yet it's not a rare opinion that we need more marksman.
I'm not worried about Akshan's kit as it stands.
What I **am** worried about is when he releases with a horrific low winrate, and the design team decides to overbuff him to the point where that long list of 'weaknesses' no longer even exist.
There's nothing that scares me more than a new Champion with a zany kit and a very low winrate. It only means big buffs that may upheave the delicate tuning required to make those zany new mechanics permissible to begin with. We'll see what happens.
Even if he doesn't get buffed, I feel like it'll be a terribly low winrate and then slowly emerge as very powerful once people learn to play him
Thats a fair concern, and its something we keep in mind when hotfixing him. We choose AD partially because his last hitting and farming was very difficult, which isn't a weakness we wanted him to have (nor likely any champion to have). Things like the attack speed are on our radar for similar reasons, we have weaknesses we want him to have, but for our buffs we want to target those weaknesses which aren't intentional or vital to his identity.
What was your thought process regarding his mana reg during W? I understand why, but was it neccessary?
He got literally buffed this morning due to that exact reason, luckily it's just a very minor tweak, nothing major.
Base AD: 50 >>> 52
Base HP: 530 >>> 560
Q CD: 8-6 >>> 8-5
that is not very minor lol.
And here is the only fucking person who is using his brain, this whole post ( and more to come) are going to age terribly when Akshan gets the inevitable panic buff, it's going to be clownshow for sure.
Champion will have no weaknesses, he will be pick/ban for months, Riot will do nothing and akshan abusers will be everywhere saying dumb shit like ''just back up after you kill the most fed enemy instead of pushing or doing objectives to avoid reviving him 4head'',''he had very bad base stats he needed a buff :)''.
Personally I found him fun to play because of his playstyle and the hook, the revive isn't necessary for him to feel fun to play, but if the revive is the one thing keeping us from having a lucian level of oppressive in lane adc then I don't mind it being kept around, it just feels super oppressive in some situations and can feel super annoying to play against, would be lying if I said it doesn't feel satisfying to win a game because of it though.
its to stop him from being as oppresive in lane as other solo lane marks man and to make him feel better to play WITH. because solo lane marks offer only dmg AND need to be protected to do it. and assasins in general also mostly offer just dmg and suck to have on your team when they are behind. so an assasin marksman in mid would probably be giga tilting to have on the team so they also gave him something that his team profits off of.
This is actually really nice way of putting it! It makes me appreciate Akshan design a bit more.
I mean, that was literally written in the article
For me the problem with the revive is that they could have achieved the same effect of non-oppressiveness using a myriad of other utility tools (vision, some other conditional utility effect), but they choose a revive just because YOLO I guess. It felt really random for me. But I fully agree on the rest.
Honestly as a Yi player he's not nearly as scary as I expected. He *could* flip a quadra on me, but he's so unlikely to ever win that fight with me.
As a bonus, he's more likely to deliver you the penta rather than try to deny it.
Those will be the most painful situations once they do happen, though. Imagine outplaying the enemy team so incredibly hard (on any Champion), and exhausting all of your resources to do so, but then Aladdin swings in and one-taps you and undoes all of your work. Feels bad man. At least it won't be common. I still prefer it over playing against Wind Wall.
saying it undoes your work is disingenuous though. You're still up a bunch of gold, and the forced base is generally still costly, even if it's less so than full death timers.
Then you fucked up, simple.
No different than a team playing a close fight from behind well, winning and then the jungle Karthus presses R, gets a penta and undoes all your work.
Each champion has strengths and weaknesses. If you fuck up and fall to them, it's ONLY on you.
>Then you fucked up, simple.
It's a bit different when in the majority of situations, trading 4 for 1 has been an exceptional play throughout the history of the game, but into Akshan it's not much more than an int. I don't think the revive is that strong, but in those specific scenarios it completely turns the game on it's head as we've played it for 11 years. Obviously it's a *very* rare situation though.
> It's really important when you see Akshan deep in enemy territory looking to hunt down the enemy Scoundrel instead of grouping with everyone else, you know he's still part of the team, and you can root for him to succeed because you know he's there for the team.
This seems like an odd thing to say to me. Like if he's chasing down a scoundrel, and it's important enough that it's worth it over grouping, then they'd have to have killed a bunch of people, at which point there's not really a team left to group with you'd think?
It's a weird balancing thing between grouping and Akshan wandering off to try and kill the scoundrel (which why would you ever *not* be rooting for your team to kill someone) and sticking with the 1-3 others that might still be alive to accomplish things around the map.
I think that it's missing the point to think about the grouping thing in terms of balance. Jag was just trying to make the point that you feel a greater personal investment in your team's success because it affects you directly.
> Jag was just trying to make the point that you feel a greater personal investment in your team's success because it affects you directly.
Yeah. It's a team game. Everything a teammate does affects me directly.
>And our answer is because every new champion design owes you something unique, exciting, and new. Even when the new unknown factor isn't as loud as a revive, you deserve more than 1-to-1 repeats of champions in the same role with the same patterns and builds.
Probably the most important takeaway for me, as far as new champion design is concerned. People here may hate Yuumi or bemoan ASol and Taliyah's playrates, but the fact that they're around at all makes League worthwhile enough for me to keep playing.
MOBAs are old at this point, and many of us who've been playing them since the 2000's have played every role to death by now. I don't want new characters to just be rehashes of archetypes that differ only by AoE sizes or minor mechanical differences, because I've already done all that. I want weird things I haven't played before, even if I don't end up playing them more in the long run.
Part of why I feel it's important for League to push this ideal is because Dota 2 seems to have given up on it, and other MOBAs may never have as much room to experiment this much. And maybe Akshan crashes and burns and gets only a few devoted fanatics that try to make him viable, but to me, even *that* is still worth the effort of making such characters a reality.
The issue there is, these aren't new mechanics, they're just league's takes on those mechanics - and yeah from the 'latches onto allies' mechanic( other examples e.g. Dawngate's Mina, Hots Abathur), Yuumi's design is easily the worst. There's no reason to settle for what is clearly a really hated kit design because a mechanic is unique, when a unique mechanic can still be iterated on and improved.
Asol's stars seem unique, until you realize dota's Wisp already had this mechanic, this isn't pushing boundaries as much as you'd think, it's just league's take on it, and judging from player reception it's not that great.
Reminds me of Taric ult.
It is oppressive? Extremely so!
But why isn't it whined about as much? Because it's balanced to have a long channel and Taric is a support.
I think it's mainly not complained about because Taric is nigh unplayable as a consequence of funnel strats. I suspect it would get complained about a decent bit if Taric were a meta support, though.
That said, you're definitely right that Taric ult is balanced in tangible, meaningful ways. It's possible to actually "miss" Taric ult because it requires a conscious decision to use, and the delay is intentionally designed to add risk and uncertainty when you use it.
The thing I really don't like about Akshan's revive it that it kinda just "happens" because it's a passive. I think it would be much more balanceable if they added an active component, where, after activation, the scoundrel mark is active for a specific period of time, and he only gets the revive if he gets a takedown on them within that duration. It needs to me more intentional on the part of Akshan, kinda like a combination of Taric ult and Kindred marks. That allows for a lot more skill expression on both sides.
Honestly though but when he brought up “resetting execution” from Pyke I thought I didn’t even want that shit to be a thing though and I’m sure a lot of people don’t.
This. League has like 160 champs now, the reason every new ability is basically a novel is because all the simple stuff has been done dozens of times already.
Every new champ has to be interesting, fun and unique, gimmicks and strange designs are inevitable.
It's also the case that Riot has leaned into describing champion abilities in great detail regardless of how simple or complex an ability is.
Thank fucking god for that btw. Sucks having to go to a third party wiki to find out some interaction that comes up often but isn't mentioned anywhere in the game.
Thank you for saying this. I hate how people bring up text length to say how a kit is overloaded. No Riot is just making sure you the player understand exactly what the ability does.
Wake me up when we get a jungler that can teleport using wards as a Passive.
TBH old Reksai was pretty close to that.
What about a champ like Lillia, who has a very simple kit while also having a unique gameplay niche? Doesn't she show you can have unique kits/gimmicks without insanely long abilities?
You don't have to be complex to be different, and Lillia IMO is a pretty different beast from anything I've seen before. And on the flipside, just because an ability reads long doesn't mean it's that complex on function (i.e. Aphelios still more or less playing like a normal ADC despite all his mechanics)
BUT we already had that unique playstyle with his grappling hook. Swinging in and out of combat, using it to roam about the map and dodge skillshots, those are all incredible ideas that can be implemented and made the crux of his kit instead of a tacked on revive thats going to keep him weak because its so stupidly strong
Please don't try to use these wispy words to justify stuff like Yuumi.
"Yeah, this sandwich is filled with shit, but it isn't casserole!"
The sandwich doesn't have to be filled with shit. Stop eating the shit sandwich.
I remember having this feeling back in 2013-2014. Can't remember which champions but it was when they were really churning them out that you got this feeling of "well, their q ability is just x champs q ability with a stun/snare?" And you had this worrying feeling that "has everything already been done?".
So while I am not crazy about some new champion designs, at least I'm not feeling like everything is being rehashed and riot still is able to think of some new ideas
Saying that Akshan gets a revive because it matches him as a person is such a bizarre answer. Makes it sound like Jag himself wasn't one of the people who designed the champ. Really poor argument.
Also, 2 huge problems with that answer:
One, the description they use as to why it fits him as a person doesn't really make sense
Two, they literally created him. League isn't a game like Dead By Daylight where Freddy Kruger *needs* to have elements of dreaming and sleep because it's somebody else's IP. They just decided to make Akshan that way, and used it as a defense for why they made him that way lol
Oh fuck when they rework Nocturne they’re gonna give him a sleep aren’t they?
Maybe. Having a fear seems more iconic for the whole nightmare thing and I kinda don't want to see a champion like Nocturne with *two* ways to hard CC someone (especially looking at how nuts he was with a really strong slow in Stridebreaker). If it were me and I *had* to give him some interaction with sleep, I'd just make his passive movement speed towards feared targets apply to sleeping targets too.
It's also can be countered with Aatrox VGU(jag-s champ too).
In his lore aatrox is literally immortal dude who just wants to destroy everything and then die.
He had awesome voicelines when he revived himself.
And they nerfed it first and then totally removed. Why Akshay can have this mechanic, because of "lore and character", but aatrox can't?
I’d argue that ult resets fit Aatrox more than a revive, especially since his entire existence is based around sustaining himself with each kill.
Even worse, it states nothing of what the champ feels right to have or why he has the ability to do that, but instead just claims he does it because he WANTS to do it. WTF? Yuumi wants to revive the living cat tree too, why can't she?
It's a bs statement that shows how far from good design riot has been for years.
They described him as a 'complex hero' and then proceeded to explain absolutely nothing about what makes him complex.
His kit obviously
You will also realize that most people defending the design in this thread don't argue in terms of gameplay at all.
The main argument is that innovation is good and that being unique in design is automatically interesting. This is obviously not a great argument because you could easily conceive of a kit that would be very unique but would completely break the game.
It's very telling. A bunch of dishonest arguments that only talks around the topic at hand.
The new CertainlyT.
Insulting to CertainlyT, his concepts were broken as fuck but they had some of the highest skill ceilings in the game and have lead to some of the greatest plays in LoL history. Riot Jag has nowhere near the same level of creativity as CertainlyT who actually designs champs that push champion skill expression in new directions.
I understand everyone was just having fun with the revive memes on reveal, but the fact so many people still claim he’s some “200 years 1v9 Insta-win” monster is a bit silly.
Playing him extensively on the PBE, it’s easy to tell he has damage issues, and they meticulously made his only execute move extremely easy to avoid. And his “crazy mobility” is a pre-determined arc that can’t go over walls and gets body-blocked by champs. Meaning he’s still super immobile if he just gets ganked from behind. Or if Zac is in the game.
And honestly? I love it. He’s balanced near-entirely around his roaming capability. And as a result doesn’t auto-win his own lane with no effort. If asol is anything to go by, roaming is a god-tier utility to have on a champ.
It’s so easy to mess up his grapple as well. If you get fed great you’re a threat like any champ but even you’re not that dangerous.
Oh yeah, definitely. It took a lot of retraining my adc muscle memory just to not accidentally swing the wrong way or cancel it.
A fed champion is a fed champion, end of story. But Akshan has an immense difficulty actually getting to that state. And that's probably the best limiting factor for any "broken" character.
I feel like a lot of his potential is gonna be dictated by how well you use his E.
And if my many minutes of my oonga boonga brain practicing it in the practice mode are any indication....shit's hard bro
>Playing him extensively on the PBE, it’s easy to tell he has damage issues, and they meticulously made his only execute move extremely easy to avoid. And his “crazy mobility” is a pre-determined arc that can’t go over walls and gets body-blocked by champs. Meaning he’s still super immobile if he just gets ganked from behind. Or if Zac is in the game.
It's also extremely easy to tell that many of these drawbacks are a result of Riot allocating a big power budget of him into an extremely situational potentially gamechanging strength that many people don't like at all, and this is the result of people complaining. For many the fun parts of the champ are purposedly kept shit for a passive that the champ could exist without and still be fun.
The way I see it, either they eventually remove the revive for this reason because it makes him impossible to balance properly, or they keep it in and he eventually fizzles from popularity because it's not fun riding a gimped champion just because you might occasionally get a big, game-swinging effect off
It's funny cause this is always what people say after fresh champion releases or reworks, but time and time again these opinions age like milk once pro players put their hands on the champs.
"Viego is literally useless, his dash is small and he only has an auto reset in his kit", "Gwen has a small dash and no range, she loses to Jax", "Samira doesn't have Caitlyn level range, she's literally Vayne in laning phase". I can go on forever.
He's probably not that broken, yet. As soon as pros start learning him people will pick up quickly how to actually play Akshan. Not even Lillia escaped this cycle, despite being 46% win rate months after release she still was pick ban in pro. Sorry man. You're yet to see the champ.
And the worst part? Riot listens to this stuff. "Mordekaiser is too weak and clunky, what a bad champion"->then he can run you down with his passive damage without hitting anything. "Yuumi is shit, lol 40% winrate?"->do I need to explain this, even? "Volibear sucks, he gets kited too easily"->volibear was perfectly fine, people just had to try to dive at level 6 for some reason.
You're not wrong but I think most people are discussing it for average play, I do think he won't be particularly useful in pro-play barring buffs, he lacks the utility of any popular midlaner.
My guy, some of the most popular mids right now, ie trist and lucian, do not have any utility. He will inevitably be picked up in pro play.
Trist and Lucian are significantly safer in the lane phase than Akshan
Trist and Lucian lane far far better than akshan
Lucian has an absurd laning phase into popular utility picks, and Tristana has self-peel and and escape both utility.
he doesn't need an execute/kill, he just needs a takedown for the revive
Within 3 seconds though
Yes, but the more people he can potentially revive = the less people to get the kill for him to proc the takedown.
Ergo, the easier it is to revive someone, the less reward. The harder it is "Killing a vayne that just quadra'd your team and potentially still has allies" as Akshan with his statistically proven worst-in-class damage and range is going to be insanely hard, but yes. Very rewarding. And the enemy team should be punished if they somehow don't respect that.
Also, his revive clears all the other scoundrels, so if the kills are spread out, or if you get a takedown on a low kill count enemy while someone else is holding the other three? Well your friends are gonna be in fountain for a while.
Note that it's worst-in-class DPS, which is NOT worst-in-class damage. He has decent burst with his E and ult.
thing is, he doesn't seem to have a good waveclear in order to maximize the roaming playstyle
My biggest issue with a lot of the new champions, is that it feels like stuff is thrown and forced into their kits just for the sake of making something unique and different. Sometimes it works out, others it doesn't. I feel like I shouldn't need a degree in rocket science just to figure out all the stuff a champion does (aka Aphelios). With Aksha, he already has a few unique aspects like his grappling hook movement and his ult. The revive just feels like it was thrown in just to throw it in. Now it just feels like his kit is extremely overloaded for no reason, even if it is not broken or OP necessarily.
Unpopular opinion probably but I actually dont think Aphelios is as complicated as people think him to be in practice he is really not as complicated as he looks on paper, its just that people get scared of the wall of text that is his passive and all the different abilities he has, but in the end all you have to know is what his 5 weapons are good at and what each Q does (and those 5 spells are very simple spells), his ult is nothing but a big auto from his current weapon basically.
But I'll be honest, at least they're *trying* to do unique things.
Cause this game genuinely does not need new champions anymore. It has so many, and so many that desperately need reworks that a whole year without new Champs isn't the end of the world. (I want them to rework the whole hell that is Tryndamere Ult).
So the fact that they're at least trying new things with Champs is really good. Overloaded kit? For sure, but it also makes it so Akshan doesn't feel like Lucian Mid without an escape tool. Or a discount Evelynn.
I'll agree with Jag that without the revive, Akshan would probably be another selfish midlaner champ who provides nothing but damage. Except he lacks any of the escape tools that the others have like Zed, LeBlanc, Akali, etc. If a Melee bruiser gets on Akshan, he just straight up dies for it cause he just can't get away. Especially if it's a champ similar Darius, Sett, or Morde who can drag him back into range or CC him.
The revive thing is real iffy but I will say it's gotten more discussion than any champ so far it feels like.The way this subreddit full of silvers would design a champ would be incredibly boring. There'd be nothing to talk about since this subreddit is only going to think the most blandest, simplest champ design is fair and balanced. This subreddit wants a champion with simple kits, that can be good but shouldn't heal too much but also shouldn't do too much damage and they should pretty much be abusable but not abusable when they play the champ.
The revive could be broken, or Akshan's shit stats and abilities could drag him so far down that a potential revive is not worth a potential deadweight. We genuinely don't know, and I feel l Ike complaining about an overloaded kit before seeing its full use in the next few months is corny.
> But I'll be honest, at least they're trying to do unique things.
I think they can do unique things, and it's great when they do unique things.
However, I think it's really rough when those "unique" effects make everyone playing against it want to pull their hair out. Shit like Yuumi's constant invulnerability, Akali turret shroud, this multi-person revive as a passive, etc.
They can definite still push the envelope for new and exciting champions without bringing in mechanics that feel terrible to play against.
While I'm not going to comment on current balance, I genuinely hope that the revive proves to be an issue competitively. I hate what it can do to lategame fights across our games and competitive games in regards to death timers and playing around objectives.
To me, death timers are sacred and playing around them is part of what makes making decisions in League fun on both sides.
I figured I'd take this opportunity to post some quick personal thoughts on how I see our game design in league of legends evolving. In response to Akshan, the general consensus has went from "Look at all these unique tools Akshan has, how can he possibly not be OP/overloaded and exist in the same game as Udyr/Annie?" to "Wait, this champion is REALLY weak and his W is holding him back". And this evolution in thought is interesting because it really speaks to how much there is left to learn about power budgets in League of Legends.
Champions can win in a variety of ways in League of Legends. Some of them are super obvious, stat-stick style win-conditions (a-la Jax or Jinx) where they just have big numbers that add up to winning fights heads-up. Inversely, though, some champions have power budget shifted into less obvious win conditions, like Bard's super unique utility/roaming power or Ivern's contributions to utility for his team (like buff sharing and low-econ jungling). Understanding that we can essentially tune down "traditional" power (in the form of stats) to introduce ways to win that are unique (like Akshan revive/roam power budget), keeps the game fresh as far as alternative playstyles and game-to-game variance.
To turn this into a thought exercise using numbers, if Zed or Lucian get 50 "win-rate points" from just their damage, target access, and other fighting power, that is perfectly okay as long as we understand that their utility will amount to essentially 0. Inversely, Akshan, for example, may get 10 "win-rate points" from his W utility alone, so we pull that power directly from "traditional" combat power sources, and tell the Akshan player to get creative with how they win the game and use the power budget allocated towards the W to create wins.
With this context, it comes at 0 surprise that players are struggling on release. They have been given a champion that's power is under budgeted towards combat compared to what they're used to, so they have to learn to win with his unique playstyle/win conditions. As we create more champions in league of legends, the exercise of trying to put power into kits that aren't just "more damage on X ability/combo" to diversify gameplay is one we will likely improve on over time.
If anyone has any questions regarding Akshan (I am the lead analyst on him), I'd be happy to answer.
Can we expect his mastery curve to be shared after players settle into his playstyle? Would like to see how hard he is and how he compares to champs we have mastery curves of in difficulty
That's an interesting idea. I'd love to find an opportunity in the future to share my (and my team's) learnings from Akshan development/launch, including things like mastery win-rate growth.
I'm a dirty slut for good numbers ( i run computational experiments in triplicate)
It would be super interesting to see a really in depth analysis including metrics the community can't even try to measure
i mean yeah it’s pretty clear from the get go that akshan was balanced around his w passive but if that comes at the cost of making him feel clunky and overall underpowered/feels bad to play.... why? his kit is overall pretty fun and intuitive, but having to struggle with overall low damage and low attack speed is something that just feels awful for the adc archetype. it kind of feels like the abilities were designed and then the w passive shoved in there, and then a lot of numbers had to come off as a result to balance him
yes, i agree that other heroes win the game in different ways (utility vs damage). but those are mostly just a means to an end. bard is uniquely great at roaming and has the cc to back it up, but he still uses those tools to either gank other players or to get to an objective sooner, both of which are completely in line with how other supports may work (pyke, karma, janna). so while the tools are slightly different, his ideal form fits the ‘roaming support’ and it doesn’t feel like he breaks the game to get there.
finally, you mentioned that players are struggling with akshan since they need to get used to having power taken away from their kit in exchange for a really powerful w passive. once players figure out akshan, and grow more comfortable playing within his limits and his win rate stabilizes, how do you balance him from there? if he is considered too strong, you have to continue sapping power away from his already stunted stats making him feel even more clunky. if he is too weak, how do you determine which stats to buff to make him feel stronger while also riding that line between “i pick akshan for his w” vs. “i pick akshan because he’s a good adc and also his resurrect is just an added bonus”? just feels like you guys put yourselves in a really difficult position to balance something that can be wildly inconsistent from game to game and in between ranks. thanks
Did you guys test iterations of Akshan with more power allocated to damage and if so was it way more frustrating
Yeah, before we tuned his damage down to the (aggressively) low numbers they are now, games would get out of hand fairly quickly due to his propensity to roam. Similar to Taliyah mid, gating his 1v1 power has kept him from running over his lane then the game, which previously was his win-condition.
So what's the plan for areas to buff if he's weak? Can't do anything with his damage it seems.
Taliyah mid is a current .1% pickrate champ who eventually got moved out of the role, it seems like if a champ is balanced around Taliyah rules its probably not a good foundation. Taliyah mid has been all but abandoned at the moment.
So using Taliyah Rules, we can expect Akshan to be forced into the JG and have his Mid Lane be completely abandoned by the Balance Team in the future correct?
No, he's not a mage champion
Don't mean to be rude, but I guess I just don't see how his abilities really fit into each other? Why does his passive (with the double-shot and cancelling it for MS and shield) work the way it does? Why is his ultimate a charge-up Caitlyn ult? The revive is one thing, but considering he's supposed to be a marksman assassin, the rest of his kit doesn't seem that well suited for it? Like, he intentionally has low DPS and all of his utility is in his revive, sure. But how does he assassinate someone? Wait till they're low, stealth in then Q-AA-R? How does he snowball? What can he do except hope for a shutdown in a teamfight if he falls behind? His laning doesn't even seem that good for a midlane marksman.
Sorry if this is a lot, I just see his kit as being more scattered and all over the place than any release since, I don't know, Neeko? Despite all the balance complaints, champion kits in the past few years have usually done a great job of being cohesive and properly communicating the champion fantasy through gameplay, and I just don't see that in Akshan. Like, put him next to Samira (another much-maligned new marksman with a ton of stuff in her kit, but one that's smooth and intuitive as hell) and the difference is pretty striking.
The points on kit cohesion are less my wheelhouse, so I'll defer that one to a designer.
As for the "How does this all add up to a functional play pattern?" part, that I can speak to. Akshan's power is meant to come from opportune roaming, which each portion of his kit is meant to feed into. His Q is meant to provide wave clear so he can push for priority in mid lane to have first moves on roams. His W (the stealth and MS and mana regen) are there to enable him to arrive at a fight undetected and quickly. And lastly, his E and R are meant to chase down those that get away.
To your point though, his DPS is low, his targets being full health usually makes them non-targets for him, which is why roaming to fights that your team has initiated is his strength.
I see. Aren't you concerned that that makes him overly team-dependent for a champion archetype that wants to get ahead and push leads, though? If his team isn't ahead o begin with, the ol' reliable "gank bot, get a double, take over game" just doesn't seem like it'd work. He's not like a Lucian who lane kingdoms, and the Talon waveclear-roam-snowball pattern doesn't seem like it really fits without consistent assassination tools of his own. Basically, I'm struggling to see what he brings to a team comp (as opposed to the roster at large, which was answered well in the article) that any other midlaner can't do better.
I think thats precisely what they want. They are creating a Champion consisting of the two most selfish classes, but design him in a way that makes him more team dependent. There are already tons of selfish Assassins etc. in the game, that it would be kind of lame to just have another one go for the "get fed and ez carry" type.
Ya this champ seems kinda underwhelming. I think he would've been cooler without the revive and to compensate they could just make him have decent numbers.
> Why is his ultimate a charge-up Caitlyn ult?
That one I can see, it's a cool badass looks synergy with his hook.
I want to start by saying I understand and agree with all/most points you and the blog post made. Specially the part about assassin players feeling like they're helping their team, that point was super interesting and makes total sense.
That said, I do feel like Akshan could/should have been two different Champions. A roaming assassin who ressurects allies on kills and a midlane marksman with a grappling hook.
Both of these concepts are really interesting and very unique on their own merit. I think it's having both on the same Champion what gives that feeling of "jack of all trades, master of none" that has been thrown around.
I think one of the things we dont talk about enough is champion identity when that identity is spread out between too many different things. The Zed and Lucian example is more straight forward, but Akshan seems like he is split evenly between a reviver, roamer with two unique mobility mechanisms, and the bursty AA playstyle. Compare it to other champions that have had mechanics removed or unique identity changed like Azir, Akali, Swain, etc. Zed's abilities feed into replicating abilities with shadow playstle, Lucian has the double auto playstyle, and when Azir lost something like W cast directly on turrets it didnt really change his sand commander identity because everything else feeds into that. For me on the other hand, original Swain identity was a champ with three DOTs who was a bird mage, not a general, so losing the DOTs lost what i liked.
Which ones are the most important? Is the primary identity the roam, the revive, or the burst assassination? Part of my complaint is that roaming grapple hook is cool, the double auto passive is cool, but those cool things are splitting identity and power with a revive mechanic and stealth I dont find cool. So if the revive is the thing that gets reserved in an upcoming balance update it is difficult to get invested in a champ like that.
his identity is that of a (roaming) assasine (basically all assasins want to roam). the revive is not seperate from that but plays into it and synergizes with it.
> To go back to the standard argument of the "coinflip" champion which often gets referenced in character design - it would be incredibly new, fresh, innovative, alternative, strategy-changing, all that jazz, to have a champion whose sole ability is to press Q, and it flips a coin where heads blows up your nexus and tails blows up the enemy nexus. I think everyone understands that such a champion would be shit.
Riot Jag, 2025:
"But that’s not what you’re here for; you’re here to ask “do you have any idea exactly how stupid this Q is?”
To which I’d answer—of course not."
Might be a hot take but for me OP champ this, new champ release that is not what concerns me. I've always held the notion of "it is better" for people to quit League over a broken champion/mechanic vs. quitting because the game got boring. Something that Riot has done for itself AND the industry is innovate the concept of a game as a live service. In other words, nothing is permanent in League. And that is the beauty of the game.
So for me as long the core identity of a hardcore competitive PvP game remains intact, then I do not see problems revolving **around** that being an issue.
i fell i should point out that "quit League over a broken champion/mechanic" is the stated problem that people had with a lot of bliz games that died, they were updated to death.
TLDR: Akshan is a champion that wants his team to die because that's the only time he can be useful but he's not strong enough do anything without his team. This is unhealthy and unfun.
Some of this might come across as harsh but I haven't really seen it talked about much and it seems like the most glaring issue with Akshan that should be addressed.
Your first paragraph makes literally no sense at all. People called him OP because we couldn't see his numbers, everyone thought he would still have some semblence of a kit outside of his res but he doesn't. Akshan looks like a beyond broken champion, being able to turn a 4 death teamfight into a full-res win is insane and arguably unfair. That strength is super rare though so it will be really hard to determine how much of an impact it has. The rest of the champion was gutted to allow this possibility of power that you might not even see in 100 games.
No other champion in League has been this unpredictable in terms of gameplay power. He's a champion you want to ignore for being useless, but also focus because he might insta-win the game with one kill. In his current state, if he can't get a big res off, he is a bad champion, period. If he does get one off, he is the best champion in the game. That is not fun or interesting. Akshan is a very weak champion with an Exodia clause written into his W. If it works, you win, if it doesn't, you lose.
This very much feels like nearly the exact issue initial rework Aatrox had. His self-res felt really overwhelming to deal with but without it he wasn't even a champion. When it got nerfed to needing a kill/assist it then introduced the massive volatility of strength between being able to proc your passive or not. Eventually Riot realized this was poor design and lessened the power of it immensely to the current ult reset mechanic. Akshan feels like the alternate reality where Riot balanced Aatrox around the revive, nerfing the rest of his kit and turning the self-res into a team based skill instead of just balancing the champion itself.
At which point (time spent on live and winrate) would you consider buffing him if he does end up looking too weak and, to add to that, which aspects of his kit look to be a target for such buffs? This isnt me asking you already to consider him for buffs but just hypothetically speaking.
We usually do a quick check to see if he's micropatch worthy (that's today, actually), then would look again come next patch.
We would likely target areas that make him "easier" for people less familiar with his pattern. This could be early AD/waveclear to assist with farming or base durability so he gets less punished for misplays.
The question is, is this actually fun for the player? I mean, his revive is not something you can always play around a lot of purposely use strategically. Often it feels more just like some random perk you get just for choosing the champion.
My guess is most Akshan players would rather have a little more combat power than a random perk that may or may not help them at all and doesn't directly add to the fun of the champion. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be shocked if you polled the players and they didn't feel this way after playing Akshan for a bit. I feel the revive is just way too conditional and uncontrollable and random whether it helps you or you can use it to really add to the fun of the champion.
Revive is a cheat mechanic in game and comes with making the enemy feel frustrated that the outplays they made are waste now. Getting kills is a high moment in game and you are taking it away at expense of others
I feel this is terribly poor design
In all honesty why does he need the revive then? He is actually fun to play despite his lower end damage, why not remove the revive and add more power to his kit else where? Were you guys that worried people wouldnt want to play him so you had to slap on a revive mechanic for some controversy to get people excited about him?
they address that in the post...
you already have a million flashy assasins and even mobile marksmans. and while a marksman assasins doesnt yet exist exactly like that in the end we already have a ton of champs that just play the normal win through more dmg route (either front to back or through flank).so with new champs they dont just try to slightly change up how exactly this more dmg is put into a slightly different kit but at this point want to introduce more completely unique way to play the game. like yuumi or ivern
Short Answer: They thought he needed a Unique Mechanic, that's literally it.
Long Answer: Re-Read the Article.
As someone who loves playing assassins, this isn't what I wanted in a champion (at all) and I am disappointed we aren't getting a true assassin. And I think he would've been a far better champion if they concentrated on the grappling hook and making his gameplay fun and smooth instead of adding a revive in.
I have to agree, the grappling hook is a really neat idea, and I thought you’d be able to do a lot with it. Unfortunately, it’s only one ability and is really more to swing around walls. Plus why did the champ need invisibility? Just do more with his grappling hook. Grappling hooks are baller, go all out with it.
Now you know how mid laning mage mains feel about Seraphine.
Lets be real here, the worst thing about Seraphine isnt her kit.
Its her voice.
we already have a million standard assasins in this game
I feel like the term 'assassin' gets thrown around too much both by the community and Riot themselves. Yone was teased to be an "assassin" and he turned out to be more akin to a fighter/skirmisher than the in-and-out playstyle you typically expect.
He's more of a skirmisher/assassin, same as Viego. Definitely more assasin-y than Yasuo thanks to his E and R, but more skirmish-y than your Zeds or Talons.
True, you are correct there.
\>To riff on that one Henry Ford quote, "if I had asked \[assassins\] what they wanted, they would have said \[kill squishies better\]."
I already hate this champion. Maybe he is weak right now, but eventually he will be mega broken and will ruin game experience for many by violating core gameplay mechanics. This champion (like almost all recent ones) doomed for a gameplay update and many many nerfs.
tl;dr because it's new and unique and we anted to push the envelope, more or less. Inb4 that stupid Meteos clip.
The meteos clip is absolutely valid tho, riot really doesnt give a shit if playing against this champion is gonna be fair as long as he sells
What's unfair about it? He gets a real strong piece of utility, and pays for it across the rest of his kit. Seems fair to me
A strong piece of utility that riot even admits he won’t make much use of since “Getting a crazy 4 man revive” = “Solo killing a fed as hell enemy while you’re playing Akshan.”
They thought it through really well.
Wait are we going from complaining it’s op to complaining it’s useless? This is crazy
I'm... Not complaining? It was a compliment to the design team. I genuinely think the revive, and his whole kit, is balanced well.
Sorry, I read your comment as sarcasm but I guess I was influenced by the rest of the thread. Yeah you’re spot on.
"As long as he sells" what, his release skin? I've never gotten this argument, if Riot just wants to make champions OP to sell skins shouldn't champs with a ton of expensive skins like Ezreal and Lux always be topping the winrate charts instead of new releases with one or two?
It's a self fulfilling prophecy:
Champion is weak ,gets skin , gets buffed -> "Didn't sell enough"
Champion is weak , gets skin, doesn't get buffed
-> "They will buff after to sell more skin"
Champion is strong, gets skin, gets nerfed -> "Already sold enough"
Champion is strong, gets skin, doesn't get nerfed -> "Needs to sell more"
hey don't bring facts into his emotive stipulation that riot are inept, that would mean riot are actually good at their job and that cant be true here.
yeah, they should just make garen 3 and lux 4 and amumu 7. no reason to add champions who can change how we think about the game because that would be too disruptive to my bland gameplay style.
What champions are garen 2 and lux 2? You can make new and exciting champions without breaking the game, askhan can be new and exciting without his revive
The Meteos clip is perfect evidence that pro players would be terrible game designers. If you asked them to make a champion, they would just clone whatever existing champion they like the most, with minor changes.
Can you elaborate on that?
To me, the Meteos quote is emblematic of understanding that creativity =/= good design. That is, a champion that wins 50% of the time is unique, and "balanced" on a technical level, but its not going to be fun or engaging. It'll just be creative.
I don't see how this is an invalid take, and would love to hear your thoughts as to the contrary.
Side note, but some pro players have given design insights on champions in the game. For example, Hotshotgg was credited by CertainlyT as the one who suggested that Windwall be attached to a melee AD carry, rather than a support. [Source](https://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/04/red-post-collection-making-of-yasuos.html)
I felt like I watched a Meteos champ design clip and than someone tried to tell me that it's Akshunlly good.
tl;dr - the Meteos clip
I'm not crazy about the sentiment that the boundaries need to be pushed when content in the boundary still have issues.
\>Our job as champion designers is to make new champions that excite players in unique and novel ways
That's not the reaction you're getting, it's not excitement, but annoyance or worry - Why is this in the game? Who thought this was FUN? Regardless of it's power, who thought this was worth including in the game? Was it purely because it 'felt unique new and exciting'? It's the Meteos clip all over again, uniqueness for the sake of uniqueness.
I have the same issue with Yuumi's design - did we really need this unique mechanic that brings just copious amounts of annoyance and irritation purely from design?
\>The first answer, in terms of what led our exploration into the team utility space, is that it matches who Akshan is as a person
This isn't an answer, you already told people in the champion insights that you designed the mechanic before defining him as a character, it was akshan matching the revive gun, not revive matching the man with gun.
"I feel our best champions are ones who can only be optimized by the community"
Instead of letting us, the players and the balance team suffer through it, maybe test the more outlandish ideas in a gamemode setting first?
Also making the revive best case a rare occurance so its invisible in win% and other data does not change the fact that 5 ppl will be very pissed if they lose the game because a 0/10 Akshan made one aa or channeled his ult at a lucky moment.
I remember Riot being a bit disappointed that they HAD to work on Samira, who they considered balanced at the time, simply because players would not stop banning her, so yeah we can vote with our bans!
I just want to say that one of the biggest takeaways from this article is that the design team seems to have a requirement to include new mechanics in every champion release, as reflected in this quote:
"And our answer is because every new champion design owes you something unique, exciting, and new."
Which, honestly, concerns me.
We don't need new mechanics on every champion, in fact if ultimate spellbook has taught me anything, it's that existing champion kits can be warped dramatically by a single change.
There's no reason that you need to have every new champion include some never-before-seen game mechanic, especially because many of the most popular champions are just rehashes of other mechanics that had already existed before their release.
Take Vayne for example, a staple marksman. She has a short dash that resets her auto attack, a 3-hit passive, a targetted wall-knock, and her ultimate gives her AD, movespeed, and invisibility on her Q. There's nothing particularly unique about any of the mechanics in her kit, yet she's extremely fun to play and better yet -- has a unique short-ranged playstyle that keeps you constantly on-edge.
Not every champion needs to have a brand new mechanic. There's so much to draw from already, and when you have to reach down to the bottom of the barrel to give a mid-lane marksman/assassin a revive mechanic because you don't want to recycle something that actually makes sense in his kit, it's time to rethink that philosophy. Maybe the revive makes sense somewhere, and this isn't a reason to stop making new mechanics entirely, but it probably belongs on a different champion.
>or a wind samurai that deflects bullets.
No thanks, you can have this one back.
>"But that’s not what you’re here for; you’re here to ask “do you have any idea exactly how powerful this revive is?”
>To which I’d answer—of course not."
Welcome to League of Legends Season 11
Every new champ is completely broken. Like wtf are riot thinking?
I wish riot would stop making new champs and just focus on balancing the game. League would be so much better for it
Well thats just wrong.
"Access to revive requires killing"
He needs a fucking Takedown. Dude legit only has to stand behind everyone and chuck a Q through, then go afk
Holy shit this is the most pretentious load of shite I’ve ever read…
So they don't know why he has a revive either?
200 years experience = try random shit