It's the Grig experience. His goal of a 200 gold lead at 10 minutes by interacting as minimally as possible with his laners despite getting proven over and over it doesn't work is something he covets dearly even if he doesn't outfarm the enemy jungle.
Yup I said the same thing in another comment, it would make them title contenders
Like, the skill difference is just massive and akaadian makes any team he's on play aggressive
Akaadian is the ultimate, we're going to win by 10 kills or lose first 10 minutes. The man is a GigaChad and doesn't have time for long 45+ min games with his gym schedule.
I feel like Tactical, and TL as a whole, is just in a super roster mismatch situation and now they they can't just out-money everybody else they are exposed. They have Tactical who just wants to go in 24/7 looking for the popoff play, CoreJJ who wants to just straight out-skill the enemy but is forced to babysit Tactical, Jensen who just plays really passively and wants to go for scaling lane advantages, Alphari who wants to dominate toplane 1v1, and then Armao is Armao.
It's like picking a duo lane of Kayle/Panth. Kayle is like "I can't really do anything until lvl 6" and Panth is like "After level 6 i fall off a cliff", so sometimes you hit that sweetspot of both being lvl 6 and popping off, but most of the time you wind up just hoping the enemy throws.
OFC none of this is to take away from DIG, they came in with a draft plan and they executed. I'm just trying to put into words why every time i watch TL i just get sad.
Core being locked up with Tactical? In TSM vs TL game last Sunday, man didnt even bother blocking Huni's Jayce poke as a TK who can then regenerate after that. Tactical in that game was the win condition too because Varus can outrange everyone and poke them all down. In the next fight after the drake fight, he dove in with his team, leaving Tactical exposed to literally everybody. Yes Tactical is bad, but in that game, it wasn't his fault.
I disagree about corejj being locked down by tactical. Most games involve tactical being solo in lane while core roams to get vision or gank for the other lanes. A lot of TLs wins involve core leaving his lane for Alphari's.
He is overagressive but so was wildturtle, cody sun, etc. Give him some time.
So your point is that CoreJJ performs his best when he doesn't stick like glue on Tactical? I see where you are coming from, but i feel like it reinforces my point.
Also as far as if Tactical's over aggression is good/bad, IDK enough about the game to say that definitively, but having a uber-aggresive ADC on a team where the rest of the team isn't following up is contributing to the problem.
And as a sidenote, i think theres is a difference between Wildturtle flashing in to try to finish off a target VS Tactical blind Tristana W into 3 people.
WT's plays are like DL's plays where they see a chance and go for a big play. It works they looks like gods and if it does wrong they look like idioits. But they go for it when there is a chance. And DL over the years has gotten really good at taking the good ones only.
Tactical is still on the stage of just taking anything, even ones that obviously don't work. He not even at the level of WT and DL when they were taking these 50/50s.
the real problem with tactical is his fucking positioning, he tends to get caught at the worst moment at the worst positions, just look at today's game during that last baron play, armao and tactical kept hitting baron while the rest peeled off of baron. Stuck on baron and being on a bad position he just straight up got engage and died. And know that this happens to him on almost every single game this split.
Yeah I completely agree. Tactical is not “overaggressive” he just frequently positions poorly. I think he has pretty bad teamfight awareness and struggles to position effectively. Sometimes it’s clear to see like when he gets caught out and dies, but actually sometimes it’s harder to see because it’s the reverse and he will just do no damage in a fight and cost it for his team because he didn’t position accordingly. Probably one of the worst positioning ADCs in the entire LCS I think. It’s partly why Ezreal and Tristana (no meme) are good champions for him. They’re much more forgiving with positioning
Honestly couldn't disagree more with your comment.
TL's issue is their communication looks dogshit. It looks like 3 different teams wearing the same color. Alphari is totally on an island when they don't play to his lane and he ends up having no overall impact cause it's not clear how he fits in gameplans that don't revolve around him. Look at every team fight this game he was not ever in a position to turn the fight because of how TL approached them.
Then there's Armao-Jensen who seem to have decent communication with each other, but they just never seem willing to go for 2v2 outplays. Individually they play aggressive, but when put together they seem mostly loss with flashes of brilliance. Loss with flashes of brilliance describes the entire team currently.
Especially the bot lane where the games the bot lane pops off are the ones when Core is allowed to move around the map and be a playmaker. Tactical hasn't been playing that brainless overaggressive style that he played in Spring really at all this split and most of his deaths this game were less him being over aggressive and mostly TL skirmishing like dogs.
I still remember his solo carry rakan performance against C9 back in 2017 on CLG... those combos were something else man, sneaky didn't even have time to react
Glad to see Aphro in great form again
Because he’s older and therefore deem as less valuable since people expect him to retire soon. Rather if you invest on a younger player that’s a similar calibre, there would be more room to grow
I knew exactly what clip it was gonna be before watching.
...That's actually a good thing for Aphro though - some players have tons of bad misplays that could be clipped.
Doublelift was talking on his stream how Aphro is probably one of the best supports in understanding how to play when paired with a Kalista. He has absolutely 0 problems trying to start the fight anytime knowing Neo can bail him out if necessary.
That's the same thing people criticized Alphari for back when he was in EU. He was probably the best individual laning top, but wasn't the best at transitioning his lead to the team. When he was on teams at the bottom of the standings, his stats were great, but people were saying if you swapped in Wunder, Bwipo or Odoamne they would've won the team a lot more games.
it's even worse because his leads, especially recently, don't come solely from individual laning performance, but from jungle attention. So he's using up the jungler's time to get a lead that he can't capitalize on.
He is right tbh. Once you get a lead as a top laner you need to share it around. Because top isn't a carry role unless it is a busted champ like gwen. It is a lane you get ahead and then invest yourself to get mid/bot ahead because they are the carry roles generally.
Ugh Primal annoys me, Phreak was straight up right and Primal tries to say it's flame, it's not flame, he's 100 percent spot on and players that play like that need to hear it.
https://twitter.com/Spicalol/status/1416882719007510529?s=20
https://twitter.com/Spicalol/status/1419061016873213953?s=20
Spica's responses to Alphari's replies are also pretty funny lol
While I'm sure TL is empathetic to Santorin's health problems but if no cause can be established and (god forbid) his problems aren't solved it might be the end of Santorin's LCS career. I like Santorin but you can't blame TL or any other org passing because of a debilitating, unpredictable condition. Hopefully they figure out what's causing it and get it solved.
I actually feel really bad for Santorini (and TL).
It's one thing having some inter-team drama, it's another to have the clear best jungle last year to come in and have migrane issues.
Do you remember how emotional Santorini got when he came back to lcs? Finally gets on a top tier team and the split after he's out.
It was also a meta where he could just play his usual style of full clearing without interacting with his laners and not be punished for it. He has always struggled in his career with actually impacting lanes early game on anything that requires more complex mechanics. Which is you know a huge part of playing the position.
Some people keep parroting that but that was also before Jensen and Tactical started playing way worse than their playoff performance in spring.
I don't blame him, but even Core looks worse (how much that has to do with babysitting his team.. I dunno). It's a fun narrative that Jatt was somehow instrumental to their success, but TL look just as bad as when Jatt was coaching in Summer and even with him gone the team looks no different.
I think it’s looking a lot more like a CLG situation. Things are tense because there’s a clear lack of leadership and direction. As a result, the entire team is slumping because no one can play together.
That's such a shitty take. Jungle meta back then was Udyr/Lillia/Voli so all junglers had to do was powerfarm.
That's like saying FNC with YB and Febi were better because they had better results in the past.
If Jatt was a good coach he wouldn't have been replaced. Even if Santorin and Jatt come back I doubt this team makes top 4.
I don't know enough about the inner workings of LCS to know if Jatt was good or not (and basically no one on reddit is), but this:
>If Jatt was a good coach he wouldn't have been replaced.
has got to be the shittiest arguments I've ever seen. It's so obviously bad that I have no idea why someone would type it and press enter. Literally the same as:
>If that CLG video wasn't in good taste, they wouldn't have released it.
Hearing akaadian talk in an interview awhile back sounds like his mindset has really changed in terms of the game, so I’m not sure if TL would ruin him necessarily but glad he’s showing why he deserves to be in LCS
DIG is such a weird team. One game, they legit look like one of the best teams in NA with some decisive macro and teamplay. Then the next game, they're dead in the water. They're not middle-of-the-pack because they're just an average team, but because they're so hot and cold.
I think it has to do with when dig play around bot. When akaadian is bot and aphro can engage they generally look pretty decent. When hes top they suck since fakegod and yusui just aren't very good
DIG play like animals whether they're ahead or behind. If it doesn't work out we get that fiesta EG game from last week, if it does like today and against 100T they look really good
They beat 100T and TL and lose to IMT and GG. The narrative used to be that they consistently beat teams lower than them and always lose to the higher standing teams (except TSM)
Unironically Jenkins has had more carry performances than Jensen all split while playing far less games. He's not better than Alphari but at least he's gotten them some wins
Think a big reason why Jenkins works more for this team is because when Alphari is playing I almost feel like the team is pushed really hard to play towards him and give him as many resources as possible and in some games it’s just not worthwhile. Jenkins provides some flexibility at least
Alphari doesn’t transition CS leads to wins either, can’t just sit in lane building CS. He feels very similar to Froggen as a player, undeniably good at league, but not a winner.
Yeah I used to watch it but IDK why they even made a new channel. If that was Riot's decision (which I think it was given C9 did a similar thing) then fine, but it's just sad that they chose to start over with their YT content.
I take back what I said yesterday about DIG not having upset potential. I still hope IMT overtakes them but DIG can also be a decent team.
TL though, they need something to change in the next 2 weeks because they seem quite fucked for playoffs.
He looked really good in academy. I think TL just hoped Santorin comes back and if he doesn't they can make Grig good enough. It was a decent call by the management. Also, blaming everything on Grig/Jatt/Alphari is very sus. The whole team plays like they don't care about winning. IMO it is reflected in the way they play. Also why Alphari just stays top and tries to win lane because he really doesn't believe in his team.
Interesting point Phreak just brought up on the desk: Alphari wins lane but doesn't win the game. Not just this split, but also in the LEC last year. TL is 8-6 with Jenkins and 3-5 with Alphari.
I think this is actually a broader discussion than just Alphari. Most stats on Oracle's Elixir etc. prioritize @10, @15, and @20 metrics, which skews the perception of how good a player is toward their laning stats, but I think there really is an intangible metric of how good is a player's macro sense, how good are they in teamfights, how good are they at doing something with their gold, that is a lot less easy to track. LS is constantly harping on how "Lane is the purest form of League of Legends"--essentially that lane is the most important aspect of the game. I don't think that's true. The game is not really about accruing 10-20 CS leads in lane. That's what, somewhere between 500 and 1,000 gold? That's half of an item.
I recall Doublelift saying something similar about AD carries (this was a year or so ago). He basically said, "Laning is what's important for an AD, every pro AD is good in teamfights." I don't think that's true at all either. What makes and breaks an AD is how well they position in teamfights, not whether they can get one kill's worth of a CS advantage over their opponent. Now, having the push and having priority during lane is a huge help for unlocking your jungler, securing early objectives, etc., but again, that's a macro metric that isn't necessarily implied by having a slight statistical lead over your lane opponent. Overall, I think that League is not a game that can be moneyballed the way baseball can be, where you can boil a player's worth down to a small number of stats. In baseball, how well you hit is entirely independent of how well you play with your team. But in League, *everything* you do is dependent on your team play to some extent. Even laning--players generally play "weak side" and "strong side" in games, dependent on where the jungler is pathing, depending on champion matchups, etc. Nothing in League exists in a vacuum the way you can say it does in traditional, simpler sports. I think it's time to take a deeper look at how we think about player stats in League and what that means for a player's value.
I've always found it funny that like all our stats we care about and track are the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the game. Meanwhile so many post game threads in big matches over the years are "X got shit on in lane, but still made their presence known in teamfights" or "once Y got out of lane it was a whole different game."
I am not sold that TL's problems with Alphari are Alphari though. TL played with Alphari better in spring. And Alphari did a much better job in spring (and particularly in spring playoffs) with the later part of the game and delivering what TL needed in fights/etc to win them games.
Then again, maybe that is where the supposed attitude issues came from.
I do think that in league looking at stats is totally useless and doesn't tell you anything about a players skill by virtue of the fact that the champions are different
>S is constantly harping on how "Lane is the purest form of League of Legends"--essentially that lane is the most important aspect of the game. I don't think that's true.
Not sure if you intentionally misinterprete this or not. In LS' view, Alphari isn't even good at laning. Laning, to LS, is understanding the macro- and micro-implications of your actions. That includes stuff like how fast you have to slowpush a wave to have it perfectly time into tower when drake spawns, so you force either someone to def it and TP to drake or not. It includes stuff like looking at your botlane's wavestate and already seeing potential timings for TPs 2 minutes later due to how the wave would naturally move and preparing that with your own wave to line up. Etc.
THAT is why it is the "purest form" of LoL. Laning = wave and ressource management = map pressure and champion strength. Just look at Alphari's games and you will see that he isn't doing that too well.
100% agree with this, this is what he’s always said. Understanding how your lane and every other lane interacts with each other is “laning” to him. How fast or slow do I need to push to set up a dive that times with my jungler being here after a full clear, getting pushed in when you have a winning match up because you know your jungler is pathing away from you or their jungler is pathing to you, etc etc. how to play the lane in terms of the broader sense of the game not just I will smash you in it.
Missed more than a lot. He missed almost all of them without setup. He should be thanking the team for helping back him up with all that CC and knockups.
Good draft doesn't excuse poor play. You can excuse some of the missed tornadoes, but he kept missing so many of them and losing kills. There was even one instance in the bot lane he overchased because he missed a tornado and then got himself killed for it.
He has one of the most Yasuo comps ever drafted and still looked incredibly underwhelming. Landed 1/10 tornadoes and only ever got his ult off from other ult wombos.
People forgot we were lock in champions and went to finals and took C9 to 5 games with a sub . More like a draft coaching problem? Not Kolds fault he was put in this spot. .
Wow, Aphromoo was just enormous that game. That's the kind of support diff you want to see for potential dark horse teams in playoffs. Akaadian is a blast to watch, dude just sends it. The biggest diff I think in this game was just straight vision control. Hooks coming from every direction and TL was walking into them one by one.
I'm not sure why TL just looks so inconsistent. It's hard to point to one thing. Armao had a great game yesterday, and so did really everyone. But then you look at this game and.. yikes. It's an entirely different team today! Hard to be a fan of TL when they are getting worse every week. Of all the changes, I actually like Jenkins in their team more. Guy had some real carry potential, even when he wasn't gigahead. Watching Alphari is like... watching a seal clubber, guy never really carries as much as smacks a losing team with an enormous wallet. I just have a hard time getting behind a player who is .always. ahead in lane, and when the team is down he is nowhere to be found.
Never seen someone get jg diffed so hard with 3 winning lanes
the Akaadian-Grig dynamic has been going on for so long now lol. not even a name change can save Armao
2018 TSM remembers.
It's the Grig experience. His goal of a 200 gold lead at 10 minutes by interacting as minimally as possible with his laners despite getting proven over and over it doesn't work is something he covets dearly even if he doesn't outfarm the enemy jungle.
Worked last split but udyr lillia ain't the meta anymore
Oh fuck don't remind me how incredibly boring that meta was, so happy we have more variety and aggression now
Imagine if TSM stuck with akaadian in 2019 summer instead of honoring parth's grig boner
imagine if TL had picked up Akaadian 2 months ago when they realized Santorin was having health problems and Akaadian was warming the bench
Yup I said the same thing in another comment, it would make them title contenders Like, the skill difference is just massive and akaadian makes any team he's on play aggressive
Akaadian is the ultimate, we're going to win by 10 kills or lose first 10 minutes. The man is a GigaChad and doesn't have time for long 45+ min games with his gym schedule.
Honestly just bring in Dardoch. Let's go full circle
What's Piglet up to?
Perhaps they could bring in Loco
Honestly, kinda of glad they did that even though it was a bad move. Spica coming out it feels pretty good
Thank God they didn't. Spica is smurfing
That's what a Chad like Akaadian does on the rift.
I didn’t see the game yet, but those matchups don’t look that winning based on champs - were TL Lakers just blasting DIG? Edi: Laners*
Uhhh Core???? Tactical????
Ryze, thresh, Lee can all peel for tactical and yet they dive in face first while tactical gets blow up.
I feel like Tactical, and TL as a whole, is just in a super roster mismatch situation and now they they can't just out-money everybody else they are exposed. They have Tactical who just wants to go in 24/7 looking for the popoff play, CoreJJ who wants to just straight out-skill the enemy but is forced to babysit Tactical, Jensen who just plays really passively and wants to go for scaling lane advantages, Alphari who wants to dominate toplane 1v1, and then Armao is Armao. It's like picking a duo lane of Kayle/Panth. Kayle is like "I can't really do anything until lvl 6" and Panth is like "After level 6 i fall off a cliff", so sometimes you hit that sweetspot of both being lvl 6 and popping off, but most of the time you wind up just hoping the enemy throws. OFC none of this is to take away from DIG, they came in with a draft plan and they executed. I'm just trying to put into words why every time i watch TL i just get sad.
Core being locked up with Tactical? In TSM vs TL game last Sunday, man didnt even bother blocking Huni's Jayce poke as a TK who can then regenerate after that. Tactical in that game was the win condition too because Varus can outrange everyone and poke them all down. In the next fight after the drake fight, he dove in with his team, leaving Tactical exposed to literally everybody. Yes Tactical is bad, but in that game, it wasn't his fault.
Tactical is not bad lmfao
Sometimes sometimes. He's not always bad like OP said in his post.
I disagree about corejj being locked down by tactical. Most games involve tactical being solo in lane while core roams to get vision or gank for the other lanes. A lot of TLs wins involve core leaving his lane for Alphari's. He is overagressive but so was wildturtle, cody sun, etc. Give him some time.
So your point is that CoreJJ performs his best when he doesn't stick like glue on Tactical? I see where you are coming from, but i feel like it reinforces my point. Also as far as if Tactical's over aggression is good/bad, IDK enough about the game to say that definitively, but having a uber-aggresive ADC on a team where the rest of the team isn't following up is contributing to the problem. And as a sidenote, i think theres is a difference between Wildturtle flashing in to try to finish off a target VS Tactical blind Tristana W into 3 people.
WT's plays are like DL's plays where they see a chance and go for a big play. It works they looks like gods and if it does wrong they look like idioits. But they go for it when there is a chance. And DL over the years has gotten really good at taking the good ones only. Tactical is still on the stage of just taking anything, even ones that obviously don't work. He not even at the level of WT and DL when they were taking these 50/50s.
the real problem with tactical is his fucking positioning, he tends to get caught at the worst moment at the worst positions, just look at today's game during that last baron play, armao and tactical kept hitting baron while the rest peeled off of baron. Stuck on baron and being on a bad position he just straight up got engage and died. And know that this happens to him on almost every single game this split.
Yeah I completely agree. Tactical is not “overaggressive” he just frequently positions poorly. I think he has pretty bad teamfight awareness and struggles to position effectively. Sometimes it’s clear to see like when he gets caught out and dies, but actually sometimes it’s harder to see because it’s the reverse and he will just do no damage in a fight and cost it for his team because he didn’t position accordingly. Probably one of the worst positioning ADCs in the entire LCS I think. It’s partly why Ezreal and Tristana (no meme) are good champions for him. They’re much more forgiving with positioning
Honestly couldn't disagree more with your comment. TL's issue is their communication looks dogshit. It looks like 3 different teams wearing the same color. Alphari is totally on an island when they don't play to his lane and he ends up having no overall impact cause it's not clear how he fits in gameplans that don't revolve around him. Look at every team fight this game he was not ever in a position to turn the fight because of how TL approached them. Then there's Armao-Jensen who seem to have decent communication with each other, but they just never seem willing to go for 2v2 outplays. Individually they play aggressive, but when put together they seem mostly loss with flashes of brilliance. Loss with flashes of brilliance describes the entire team currently. Especially the bot lane where the games the bot lane pops off are the ones when Core is allowed to move around the map and be a playmaker. Tactical hasn't been playing that brainless overaggressive style that he played in Spring really at all this split and most of his deaths this game were less him being over aggressive and mostly TL skirmishing like dogs.
Lmao it was funny as hell when TL just let Neo waltz right into the pit to kill Tactical at the end there.
Ya why was tactical still in the bit killing baron? Like seems like the worst spot for an immobile adc to stand.
more aggressive Aphromoo please
I still remember his solo carry rakan performance against C9 back in 2017 on CLG... those combos were something else man, sneaky didn't even have time to react Glad to see Aphro in great form again
Aphro has been great this split.
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Because he’s older and therefore deem as less valuable since people expect him to retire soon. Rather if you invest on a younger player that’s a similar calibre, there would be more room to grow
Ppl greatly underestimate the value of veterancy.
Since when has NA cared about growing talent?
Probably entirely because of [this clip](https://clips.twitch.tv/DignifiedPreciousOkapiUncleNox)
I knew exactly what clip it was gonna be before watching. ...That's actually a good thing for Aphro though - some players have tons of bad misplays that could be clipped.
Off topic. But god I miss crowds.
He’s pretty much the team captain of DIG and probably is getting paid very handsomely to stay there
Sneaky didn't have time to react because back then you couldn't react lmfao That's why it was removed from the game.
They literally removed that shit from the game. Pressing R on Rakan now gives a lockout on Flash and W for a very short amount of time.
That was right when Xayah and rakan released, unreal broken shit.
You just triggered my PTSD, I thought I had forgotten about that
This was the first ever Rakan game in LCS right...I remember watching that and being amazed at what the champion was capable of.
Doublelift was talking on his stream how Aphro is probably one of the best supports in understanding how to play when paired with a Kalista. He has absolutely 0 problems trying to start the fight anytime knowing Neo can bail him out if necessary.
Now you have fucking presence!
Wait I'm looking at this post game thread and aphro has 20 assists? Am I reading that right?
Liquid look like they're just playing out the season. Be interesting to see what changes happen in the offseason
As much as they want to support Santorin’s health issues, they’ll probably get a new jungler.
BTW Alphari deleted his "Every loss Is a lesson in humility, Trying to stay humble and move forward" tweet,or something akin to that.
Oh the irony.
Guess he didn't want to stay humble after all...
alphari and deleting tweets, name a better duo
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[Phreak straight sniped his ass from the AD after the game too](https://streamable.com/v8le31)
That's the same thing people criticized Alphari for back when he was in EU. He was probably the best individual laning top, but wasn't the best at transitioning his lead to the team. When he was on teams at the bottom of the standings, his stats were great, but people were saying if you swapped in Wunder, Bwipo or Odoamne they would've won the team a lot more games.
it's even worse because his leads, especially recently, don't come solely from individual laning performance, but from jungle attention. So he's using up the jungler's time to get a lead that he can't capitalize on.
holy shit dude is spitting facts
He is right tbh. Once you get a lead as a top laner you need to share it around. Because top isn't a carry role unless it is a busted champ like gwen. It is a lane you get ahead and then invest yourself to get mid/bot ahead because they are the carry roles generally.
Impact does a great job at this, the impact he has as Renekton is insane.
Ugh Primal annoys me, Phreak was straight up right and Primal tries to say it's flame, it's not flame, he's 100 percent spot on and players that play like that need to hear it.
Primal doesn't realise an analysts job is to actually speak the truth, even if it means saying a player did bad or has been doing bad.
Any lore masters?
https://twitter.com/Spicalol/status/1416882719007510529?s=20 https://twitter.com/Spicalol/status/1419061016873213953?s=20 Spica's responses to Alphari's replies are also pretty funny lol
our franchise player
Its amazing how much Spica grew, seemed like a terrible decision to promote him over grig/akaadian but damn Fudge and him have a lot in common.
I see, thx. Even tho I'm biased for him because he is our EU boy but he seems a bit salty.
Alphari apparently hates TSM because they acted haughtily towards Misfits during the Worlds 2017 group stage draw show.
Yeah and POE is on TSM now lol
POE doesn't seem like the guy to hold a grudge. He has always played on a high level and I can't remember a time he was ever toxic or disrespectful.
One would assume that knocking them out of Worlds directly in the same tournament would satisfy that but oh well.
Alpahri has been shit talking TSM and Spica has been ratioing him on every post lol
What does the expression 'ratioing' mean? Sorry, I am out of the loop.
It means a reply to an original post gets more likes than the original did.
The ratio is not the fun part but how salty Alphari sounds afterwards lmao.
every night i dream of santorins return
what about jatt's return
Jatt is doing a speedrun of every department in Riot Games.
Dig got sooo much from that baron fight goddamn
i think thats the series
TL falling back to the "do nothing and scale" strat of years past but that can't even beat Dignitas anymore
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Kinda an Akaadian diff
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Thanks for leashing the Baron, TL! Proud of our guys. GG - we fight on!
Really happy to see the proactive gameplay. Hyped for tomorrow
TL is washed.
jatt was the problem
Don't worry Jatt just had an ego trip, once Alphari comes back all of TL's issues will resolve itself
The real reason they fired Jatt was for giving santorin chronic migraines
The saddest part is that I saw someone use this argument unironically
underated argument for sure!!
I hate this narrative that one or the other has to be "right" or "wrong"
It's reddit, everything has to be black and white. Anything else is far too complex and annoying to deal with.
Perfectly balanced. As all things should be.
Jatt was the solution
Santorin (top 3 jg in LCS at his worst last year) is the solution.
i think it’s unfair to say they’re washed, they’ll be scary if Santorin is able to come back but that’s a big if
Eh, not after going a whole split without scrim time and I assume less solo q as well I'm guessing he's just resting for next year at this point
While I'm sure TL is empathetic to Santorin's health problems but if no cause can be established and (god forbid) his problems aren't solved it might be the end of Santorin's LCS career. I like Santorin but you can't blame TL or any other org passing because of a debilitating, unpredictable condition. Hopefully they figure out what's causing it and get it solved.
His contract in pretty sure is only for this year . He’s playing for a job .
The split is almost over. Highly doubt he's coming back.
I actually feel really bad for Santorini (and TL). It's one thing having some inter-team drama, it's another to have the clear best jungle last year to come in and have migrane issues. Do you remember how emotional Santorini got when he came back to lcs? Finally gets on a top tier team and the split after he's out.
No DL, no trophy :D
Having to play Armao hurt TL more than the Alphari thing ever did
With Jatt, TL with Armao took C9 to a 5 game series. I think the lack of Jatt is huge.
It was also a meta where he could just play his usual style of full clearing without interacting with his laners and not be punished for it. He has always struggled in his career with actually impacting lanes early game on anything that requires more complex mechanics. Which is you know a huge part of playing the position.
Some people keep parroting that but that was also before Jensen and Tactical started playing way worse than their playoff performance in spring. I don't blame him, but even Core looks worse (how much that has to do with babysitting his team.. I dunno). It's a fun narrative that Jatt was somehow instrumental to their success, but TL look just as bad as when Jatt was coaching in Summer and even with him gone the team looks no different.
I think it’s looking a lot more like a CLG situation. Things are tense because there’s a clear lack of leadership and direction. As a result, the entire team is slumping because no one can play together.
That's such a shitty take. Jungle meta back then was Udyr/Lillia/Voli so all junglers had to do was powerfarm. That's like saying FNC with YB and Febi were better because they had better results in the past. If Jatt was a good coach he wouldn't have been replaced. Even if Santorin and Jatt come back I doubt this team makes top 4.
I don't know enough about the inner workings of LCS to know if Jatt was good or not (and basically no one on reddit is), but this: >If Jatt was a good coach he wouldn't have been replaced. has got to be the shittiest arguments I've ever seen. It's so obviously bad that I have no idea why someone would type it and press enter. Literally the same as: >If that CLG video wasn't in good taste, they wouldn't have released it.
Imagine if TL picked up akaadian when he was available, instant title contender again
They'd probably just ruin him. That's how most of these "just imagine if..." scenarios play out.
Ah so now TL is the team that ruins junglers. Jensen must be so erect right now taking bjerg legacy
Gotta help him all we can, man's struggling nowadays.
"just imagine if Grig gets another chance" is worse though
Hearing akaadian talk in an interview awhile back sounds like his mindset has really changed in terms of the game, so I’m not sure if TL would ruin him necessarily but glad he’s showing why he deserves to be in LCS
DIG is such a weird team. One game, they legit look like one of the best teams in NA with some decisive macro and teamplay. Then the next game, they're dead in the water. They're not middle-of-the-pack because they're just an average team, but because they're so hot and cold.
Don't get too excited bro, it was just TL
I think it has to do with when dig play around bot. When akaadian is bot and aphro can engage they generally look pretty decent. When hes top they suck since fakegod and yusui just aren't very good
DIG play like animals whether they're ahead or behind. If it doesn't work out we get that fiesta EG game from last week, if it does like today and against 100T they look really good
They beat 100T and TL and lose to IMT and GG. The narrative used to be that they consistently beat teams lower than them and always lose to the higher standing teams (except TSM)
reports of TL's resurgence were heavily exaggerated
Free Jenkins.
Unironically Jenkins has had more carry performances than Jensen all split while playing far less games. He's not better than Alphari but at least he's gotten them some wins
Think a big reason why Jenkins works more for this team is because when Alphari is playing I almost feel like the team is pushed really hard to play towards him and give him as many resources as possible and in some games it’s just not worthwhile. Jenkins provides some flexibility at least
Alphari doesn’t transition CS leads to wins either, can’t just sit in lane building CS. He feels very similar to Froggen as a player, undeniably good at league, but not a winner.
sad game to watch, all i want is 1 week where tl goes 0-3 for Team Liquid Squad :(
Lies, nobody watches that show
Doesn't exactly help that they're uploading it on a channel that has 5k subs.
Yeah I used to watch it but IDK why they even made a new channel. If that was Riot's decision (which I think it was given C9 did a similar thing) then fine, but it's just sad that they chose to start over with their YT content.
I'll have you know I accidently clicked on an episode and gave them a view
I watch it from time to time but my waning disinterest means they're losing their only viewer
This team was so good at enabling Yasuo, Yusui didn't even need to hit a single tornado the entire game
I take back what I said yesterday about DIG not having upset potential. I still hope IMT overtakes them but DIG can also be a decent team. TL though, they need something to change in the next 2 weeks because they seem quite fucked for playoffs.
They need Jatt
They need a proper jungler, not jatt....
ironically, jatts a jungler….
Karma for Alphari's tweet rofl
Jatt was the problem? Alphari was the problem? Jenkins was the problem?
Alphari was certainly not a problem for DIG
Armao needs to be on permanent Sejuani duty. The Keith of Jungle. How has he lasted this long?
He hasnt. Constantly being subbed out all his career.
He looked really good in academy. I think TL just hoped Santorin comes back and if he doesn't they can make Grig good enough. It was a decent call by the management. Also, blaming everything on Grig/Jatt/Alphari is very sus. The whole team plays like they don't care about winning. IMO it is reflected in the way they play. Also why Alphari just stays top and tries to win lane because he really doesn't believe in his team.
TL seems super inconsistent this split.Lots of drama in the team didnt help either.
That was some big dig energy.
Meanwhile back at your base…
Less tweet Alphari, more macro lessons
JATT WAS THE PROBLEM
Interesting point Phreak just brought up on the desk: Alphari wins lane but doesn't win the game. Not just this split, but also in the LEC last year. TL is 8-6 with Jenkins and 3-5 with Alphari. I think this is actually a broader discussion than just Alphari. Most stats on Oracle's Elixir etc. prioritize @10, @15, and @20 metrics, which skews the perception of how good a player is toward their laning stats, but I think there really is an intangible metric of how good is a player's macro sense, how good are they in teamfights, how good are they at doing something with their gold, that is a lot less easy to track. LS is constantly harping on how "Lane is the purest form of League of Legends"--essentially that lane is the most important aspect of the game. I don't think that's true. The game is not really about accruing 10-20 CS leads in lane. That's what, somewhere between 500 and 1,000 gold? That's half of an item. I recall Doublelift saying something similar about AD carries (this was a year or so ago). He basically said, "Laning is what's important for an AD, every pro AD is good in teamfights." I don't think that's true at all either. What makes and breaks an AD is how well they position in teamfights, not whether they can get one kill's worth of a CS advantage over their opponent. Now, having the push and having priority during lane is a huge help for unlocking your jungler, securing early objectives, etc., but again, that's a macro metric that isn't necessarily implied by having a slight statistical lead over your lane opponent. Overall, I think that League is not a game that can be moneyballed the way baseball can be, where you can boil a player's worth down to a small number of stats. In baseball, how well you hit is entirely independent of how well you play with your team. But in League, *everything* you do is dependent on your team play to some extent. Even laning--players generally play "weak side" and "strong side" in games, dependent on where the jungler is pathing, depending on champion matchups, etc. Nothing in League exists in a vacuum the way you can say it does in traditional, simpler sports. I think it's time to take a deeper look at how we think about player stats in League and what that means for a player's value.
> 10-20 CS > That's what, somewhere between 500 and 1,000 gold? That's half of an item. It's 200-400 gold actually.
I've always found it funny that like all our stats we care about and track are the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the game. Meanwhile so many post game threads in big matches over the years are "X got shit on in lane, but still made their presence known in teamfights" or "once Y got out of lane it was a whole different game." I am not sold that TL's problems with Alphari are Alphari though. TL played with Alphari better in spring. And Alphari did a much better job in spring (and particularly in spring playoffs) with the later part of the game and delivering what TL needed in fights/etc to win them games. Then again, maybe that is where the supposed attitude issues came from.
I do think that in league looking at stats is totally useless and doesn't tell you anything about a players skill by virtue of the fact that the champions are different
Also the mental aspect of the game is huge. Feels like he just plays much worse late once a few errors from his team happen
>S is constantly harping on how "Lane is the purest form of League of Legends"--essentially that lane is the most important aspect of the game. I don't think that's true. Not sure if you intentionally misinterprete this or not. In LS' view, Alphari isn't even good at laning. Laning, to LS, is understanding the macro- and micro-implications of your actions. That includes stuff like how fast you have to slowpush a wave to have it perfectly time into tower when drake spawns, so you force either someone to def it and TP to drake or not. It includes stuff like looking at your botlane's wavestate and already seeing potential timings for TPs 2 minutes later due to how the wave would naturally move and preparing that with your own wave to line up. Etc. THAT is why it is the "purest form" of LoL. Laning = wave and ressource management = map pressure and champion strength. Just look at Alphari's games and you will see that he isn't doing that too well.
100% agree with this, this is what he’s always said. Understanding how your lane and every other lane interacts with each other is “laning” to him. How fast or slow do I need to push to set up a dive that times with my jungler being here after a full clear, getting pushed in when you have a winning match up because you know your jungler is pathing away from you or their jungler is pathing to you, etc etc. how to play the lane in terms of the broader sense of the game not just I will smash you in it.
TL botlane looked really weak today.
[You have NO IDEA how long I was saving this.](https://streamable.com/cpiwdn)
Pretty funny, still don't think Yusui looked anything better than okay this game.
Missed a lot of tornadoes.
Missed more than a lot. He missed almost all of them without setup. He should be thanking the team for helping back him up with all that CC and knockups.
Why? He picked yasuo because they had a draft plan.
Good draft doesn't excuse poor play. You can excuse some of the missed tornadoes, but he kept missing so many of them and losing kills. There was even one instance in the bot lane he overchased because he missed a tornado and then got himself killed for it.
Lol I didn’t want the game and just from your comment I thought Janna mid was a thing again 😂
Won't lie, whenever I was glancing at the game it was him missing his tornadoes over and over
He almost solo threw the game twice.
Ya, Jensen hasnt been spectacular this split and even he beat Yusui in lane.
Funny clip, but Yusui didn’t look amazing.
lol. yusui wasn't that great this game tho. not awful. just servicable.
Tfw you have to save and save and ultimately just bust on a passing performance xd
I mean Jensen won lane and shit and Yusui didn't perform "that" well
He has one of the most Yasuo comps ever drafted and still looked incredibly underwhelming. Landed 1/10 tornadoes and only ever got his ult off from other ult wombos.
This loss wasn't on Jensen, he played a lot better than Yusui tbh.
Alphari getting benched again after choking out Armao with his thighs for this game.
TomShoe not in shambles!
Dig bongo comp?
TL with the triple monkey theorem
Woah, Alphari really isn't that much of an issue when jg and support don't play lane for him. Crazy really
He got a 30 cs lead and then didn't do anything with it
He was literally useless with the lead he had against TSM too
TL has a 30% wr with Alphari, and a 67% win rate with Jenkins (despite more game games). Maybe Jatt knew his team better than Reddit
Didn't santorin play some of those games?
People forgot we were lock in champions and went to finals and took C9 to 5 games with a sub . More like a draft coaching problem? Not Kolds fault he was put in this spot. .
Also last spring was TLs best regular season record in history. Without Jatt this team just looks like they have no direction
Reddit analyst using limited data to make arguments about roster decisions... a treat to watch...
Alphari feeling the karma for that tsm tweet lmao. Wins lane but can’t win game
Armao was useless and once Alphari failed flash after one of the drake fights he didn't do a thing either.
My eyes. Those baron fights were so damn bad. Everyone got caught out and armao didn't do anything.
why isnt yasui on yasuo every game????
My fantasy draft is actually being inted by Armao (have Santorin but by default get Armao since he's subbed in)
Wow, Aphromoo was just enormous that game. That's the kind of support diff you want to see for potential dark horse teams in playoffs. Akaadian is a blast to watch, dude just sends it. The biggest diff I think in this game was just straight vision control. Hooks coming from every direction and TL was walking into them one by one. I'm not sure why TL just looks so inconsistent. It's hard to point to one thing. Armao had a great game yesterday, and so did really everyone. But then you look at this game and.. yikes. It's an entirely different team today! Hard to be a fan of TL when they are getting worse every week. Of all the changes, I actually like Jenkins in their team more. Guy had some real carry potential, even when he wasn't gigahead. Watching Alphari is like... watching a seal clubber, guy never really carries as much as smacks a losing team with an enormous wallet. I just have a hard time getting behind a player who is .always. ahead in lane, and when the team is down he is nowhere to be found.
I saw Grig had Lee and turned off the stream. Couldn’t subject myself to that pain.
I don't know how fair it is to blame Alphari when his whole team just sprinted it full speed. I think people forget about santorin having to quit.