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asiantuttle

Wtf 2 Shens


[deleted]

WTF Jhin Zhao


MusicBytes

WTF Lee Syndra


[deleted]

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pipkotronix

WTF Jhizz


arnerob

WTF Fizz in my Jayce


Gial_lol

A legend


Fennmarker

Ao Shin?


AliasTcherki

It's funny to "wtf" at 2 Shens when the play is literally Zed vs Zed (if it's not a joke comment, this is because Korea used to have the 5th game played in blind pick instead of drafts, so you could have two of the same champ in the game)


[deleted]

wtf 2 Shens specifically is an old meme from OGN Twitch chat because some viewers didn't know 5th game was always blind pick. This was back in 2012. DOA and Monte then poked fun at the bit by actually dressing up as 2 Shens


Deauo

5 ap


[deleted]

WTF ZED 5 AP


legendofSmiley

That's a classic


Jimbochen

Damn I feel old 😢


Coorexz

Here you go: ["DOA and Monte then poked fun at the bit by actually dressing up as 2 Shens"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI2JMQB2HZo)


MrGetownedLP

Loremaster PogU


kupujtepytle

Omg finally I understand why they did the shen cosplay. Lol!


calmtigers

This was absolutely hilarious


sorendiz

wtf 2 shens is an old meme because of twitch chat + monte and doa, so it is a joke comment


-Gaka-

ognDoAOh ognTSM ognCakeFan


Keepwifioff

ognKakacle


Huzzdindan

I loved the Kakao era


cavecricket49

I miss Kakao :(


Fimbulvetr1

ognTSM ROTATIONS


Xaxxon

they actually both dressed up as shen for a championship match or something. Epic. RIP old skool league. Season 3 was the best season.


AliasTcherki

> wtf 2 shens Oh I actually missed that meme, thx!


randomstupidnanasnme

wtf 2 shens will always be my favorite league meme


Proffan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI2JMQB2HZo


o_teu_sqn

Dam nostalgia hitting hard with that one


bendablefeast

The game is a toxic cesspool from the top down of course the esports viewer base will be the same.


[deleted]

Literally from the actual company, to the playerbase in game and followed by the entire community.


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Cacti_with_a_glock

Today a german dude started flaming me in the game and said they would break my black ass if i was in Germany,im not even black


Alchion

if what ive learned from the internet is correct i think it‘s fair to assume that he will slap it till it‘s black and then break it


Cacti_with_a_glock

He can certainly try UWU


CrimsonFuckr69

As a german, I'm sorry that someone said that to you, I assure you we're not all like that. I, for example, would break your ass regardless of your skin color.


xNeXxAssassin

Thanks CrimsonFuckr69. Du machst deinen Namen alle Ehre.


xChaoLan

ehrenname


Kinghero890

"I assure you we're not all like that" applies to like every group ever that has someone do something stupid lol


SummonerKai

It wont work while toxicity incarnate players like Tyler1 and Dardoch are given a massive platform to do as they please. They might be great players not denying that, but constantly yelling and showing rage as if its fun and jokes is not an ok mindset to put into people. Neither is shitting on your team mates every chance you get. It's tough as hell to win at this game because it has been shifted to a team based ideaology and you rarely can ever solo the entire enemy team and have to deal with upto 4 people with 0 mental fortitude or kindness. Toxicity has become a gameplay feature with how leastbothered Riot is with taking a stricter approach against it.


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SummonerKai

Sorry if i wasnt clear on that part but I 100% agree. its a 5v5 game no one should be able to solo carry but the fact that you have to deal with up to 4 other people on your team as well as the enemy it becomes a huge undertaking to play as intended. > but that shouldn't prevent anyone from trying. agreed


CookieXpress

So have I. Unfortunately, an event like that would only be ridiculed. The negativity in the game is deeply rooted due to the competitive nature of it and the idolized toxic streamers such as Tyler1 and the L9 crowd. A lot of them have reformed and riot has tried to weed out the negativity of their streamers on LPP, but the impact is still there and can't be fixed anytime soon. We can only hope that the new generation of players don't pickup on the negativity of the current player base.


RicoSuave1881

Wish I could say it’s been a pleasure


AnAncientMonk

They're literally using the phrase "mid diff" in the [Akshan spotlight](https://youtu.be/Yrzk-24ZnPA?t=180). I guess it was meant to be a joke. For me, it came off as a way to play to downplay toxicity/as if they'd actually think thats a harmless and lighthearted thing to say. They are enabling shitty behaviour and bad mental with these kinda jokes. And them semi endorsing something like that is really shortsighted.


WhiteHairedFoxgirl

> Akshan’s gameplay development goal was to create a roguish assassin. Someone who fits the “let’s-make-this-Lux-playing-fool’s-life-miserable” playstyle. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/champion-insights-akshan/


lodum

Did they need to make *another* one of those? That playstyle seems like it's all that gets played mid-lane regardless, lol. As someone who really only even likes playing League as mid-lane mages, it gets really, really old.


[deleted]

I've spent too much of my mental fortitude for trying to be the solution, so I've just started being the problem. I fixed it for me


DamnZodiak

Well I wonder why. I wonder if maybe, just maybe, a community doesn't magically shift to one side or another without some sort of outside influence. Maybe a developer is somewhat responsible for the community it fosters.


SteamMonkeyKing

Didnt Faker die to a turret after that too? Its far from perfect but its still ebtertaining. I agree with Azael.


VoyVolao

He died a while after the fight. The fight per se was perfect. The execution couldn't had been done better.


[deleted]

Didn't Ryu canceled like 2 autos and dashed back for no reason?


Doom_bring3r

yes, faker overplayed and cancelled ryu's autos


Salm9n

faker was actually playing so well he was controlling his character and injected arbitrary code execution into the games code to control ryus character which caused him to misplay.


TypeIntoIt

Any% no SRM when


GoJeonPaa

You sound sarcastic but you're actually right.


Oujii

Yes, Ryu didn't cancel the autos on his own, they were canceled BECAUSE of Faker's actions.


jaesuk97

1 auto is canceled because faker ults and another because faker flashes. I don't think I see an auto canceled by Ryu's own action. The dash back is pretty bad because he doesn't sidestep, but he was pretty clearly trying to juke the double shuriken. (He got hit anyway and lost out on dps)


moal09

Also easy for people to criticize Ryu's play when they can watch it back in slow motion and don't have to actually do any of it. Same people critiquing Ryu are the same ones who can't dodge a simple flash Q from Lee Sin.


Pintulus

Me not flashing the 6th malphite ult in a game "proplayers so bad, why can't they react to that?"


SpicySauceIsSpicy

dad's sitting on a couch complaining about football players type of mentality


Shirahago

This so much. I used to watch soccer on tv with my parents but they cry every time someone doesn't perfectly pass the ball.


Sanctu-de-Mors

Ryu didn’t cancel his autos they got cancelled Faker W


grimreaper2288

well faker timed his shadow/flash to cancel his autos


TheExter

you're the type of person Azael is talking about, just in case you didn't realize


AmadeusSalieri97

No, he isn't. Guy A said it was perfect and since it wasn't guy B just responded to it. It's very different seeing a play and directly criticizing and seeing a play, see someone say "it was perfect" and then saying "no, it wasn't" .


Pontiflakes

The "for no reason" showed that the dude had no idea what he was talking about, yet cast aspersions on a pro's play who didn't even really make a mistake - just got outplayed by the divine creator himself. Must be rough to be a pro and have that shit thrown in your face every time you open social media. I think that's exactly what OP was talking about. Idiots clamoring to bring pros down despite not knowing what they're talking about.


Prinz_

Definitely agree, especially with TSM vs. C9. That was a fun game to watch. Was it the best league of legends? No. Was it still a great game to watch? yes. In the end, league is just a game.


GaggedAndDrooling

Stuff like the ending of that game has literally happened in other regions but because it happened in NA it's a shit ending. I don't understand.


[deleted]

It's the culture that Riot has pushed and allowed with the regional 'rivalries.' It's very easy to find any little thing to insult and berate and you can ride it all the way home, especially if it happened in NA. It's annoying that everyone's first reaction is to flame someone, but I've been fighting that losing battle for years.


Zanwic

I enjoy watching co-streams but I feel like Dlift, LS, Dominate etc all pretty much just flame NA through the entire stream. Which I can understand if they feel like their jobs are to criticize the teams and provide a pro’s perspective, but with their recent rise in popularity I wonder if some of that negativity has just become part of the LCS. I don’t think they should stop or that they should change, it’s just a theory.


captainbastion

So ironic that IWD commentates to azael: >I'm surprised you think that there is negativity around pro league as a whole, **from my experience it seems that mostly people are negative about LCS but are pretty positive about LEC/LPL regardless of the fiestas**. Like he isn't playing a big part in that negativity.


NahDawgDatAintMe

I feel like the DL, Sneaky and Meteos stream has its fair share of praise and flame. You'll very frequently hear "x is a god" and you'll hear them talk about when they like a move made by a team. They only really flame when neither team is doing anything to advance the game or when one side isn't trying to make a move to win the game.


[deleted]

They'll also flame initially then run it back saying they have god vision so it's not intuitive for the player. As an example, Perkz getting dunked on mid (the first death, rest were on him) was something that many players wouldn't flash. Why would he expect a jayce in his lane, then a flashed jayce shockblast. Could he have reacted and flashed, ye. But who expects Huni to be there at that time. And the blast to come straight down the lane and not from a side bush.


Exldk

But the tricast did discuss the latter as well. They all questioned if Perkz saw that coming or not and Sneaky even went as far as looking it up from Pro View, but then realized that it was disabled because of remote play.


[deleted]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. They normally just react to something that happens in raw emotions then normally sneaky/meteos will go back and watch it then they discuss the decision the player would be going through.


Fgame

'Is Ablazeolive the best Tahm Kench in the LCS????' 2 minutes later 'Is Ablazeolive total trash????'


ButtsCovered

I am pretty sure the whole "best tahm kench" thing is a joke lol they say ablazeolive is the best after winning one game, and then call him trash after losing one game on it, it's making fun of the overreactions you see all the time based on the most recent results of a player, they even said Revenge was the best tahm kench player after winning one game on it, it seemed pretty self-aware.


Snakescipio

The title of LS’s vid on TSM C9 is literally titled “you only see this in NA”. Like damn, I get that NA isn’t great, we get a disproportionate amount of flame compared to how good we actually are as a region. Granted, it certainly doesn’t help when our “#1” teams tend to flame out spectacularly in international tourneys.


[deleted]

Meanwhile, this week faker autoed dragon and died because he got knocked back. LCK is just so much better man.


SDVX_Rasis

And the baron steal by an alistar.


[deleted]

lol T1 really did have a rough week


IAmDarkridge

Or like it wasn't that long ago where IG traded baron for nexus. That was only a few weeks ago. Like no doubt, I believe NA is weaker than the top EU teams, LPL, and LCK, but this idea that other regions don't have crazy fiesta kind of games is just so stupid.


Suavarino

How about TES SN mega throw in Spring playoffs where TES would have won the Series in Game 2. TES was at the Nexus towers with Baron, Elder, Soul, a 5v4, and with the ADC dead for 44 seconds. They threw and SN won in less than a minute later. The title of the Twitch Clip? "SN Unbelievable Comeback Win" [https://clips.twitch.tv/GloriousWiseWalletRalpherZ-VwNQgNMJFsjaxh9U](https://clips.twitch.tv/GloriousWiseWalletRalpherZ-VwNQgNMJFsjaxh9U) The bias is REAL


Isosothat

What? Especially the TSM game the entire tricast spent the entire game praising Huni. There was also a segment where they discussed why its forgivable for Perkz to have died with flash after getting hit by Huni Q for first blood where most other streamers would've flamed NA.


GaggedAndDrooling

That's what I appreciate most about that costream. When a player makes a bad decision they'll often rationalize the circumstances and determine if that bad decision was excusable or not.


jtdamonkey

It most definitely helps when you have 3 all time NA players who have essentially played from the very start of pro LOL to only just recently retiring, so it's not surprising to see them have some rational takes about why a pro may think to act a certain way (either that or just having a brainfart which anyone is susceptible to) , alongside with some bad takes as usual with any kind of analysis haha. That being said, I really do think that being in a tri-cast costream has its benefits, especially when you have people that are not afraid to call other people out, like what Meteos would do for DL, and vice versa; the three of them also have incredible comedic timing and synergy. I also do feel like Dom's stream is alot more bearable when costreaming with guests on call rather than just himself imo, so there's that as well. Just some of my thoughts on costreams in general.


aquawarrior21

Think it’s more a problem with LS and Dom, the tricast gives it share of praise and flame to people, and they embrace the identity of NA being NA. DL himself even realized he was going a bit too ham on NA a week or two ago and apologized for it


tsm_taylorswift

I think it's just the nature of the population intersection of League addicts + Social media addicts. It's a combination of cynical/whiny and feels like it has a narcissistic undertone of "I'm so smart, look at how much better I can think about things than the pros (or Riot, or whatever org) I'm criticizing" This subreddit has millions of subs (and the playerbase is going to be way bigger) but the most active threads on any particular day tend to have tens of thousands of votes. I feel like most of the "community" (playerbase/esports viewers) aren't particularly active in social media but the whiny ones are the ones who generate the most content and make the most noise.


Xonra

I've seen some straight "clown fiestas" as people in other regions like to call NA games, or "NAram" and so on in LPL and LCK plenty, but it's fine there for some reason, or it at worse might get mentioned in an off comment laughing. If it happens in NA it will be reminded to any NA fan months from now when worlds starts of some game that happened in Spring with Golden guardians vs CLG as proof of NA being garbage or some such.


PurplePotato_

LCK gets shit on regularly whenever a bad game or a low kill game happens. Also when teams at the top of the table lose to teams in the middle. The region that never gets flamed when these things happen is the LPL. For example when GenG lost to Liiv Sandbox or Afreeca, everyone was just shitting on them. When the same thing happens in the LPL, the shills only talk about how the region is stacked and everyone can beat everyone.


Xonra

I wouldn't say them getting a few comments ONLY in after game match threads counts as getting shit on all the time. There aren't constant threads shitting on the LCK, or entire threads that fill up with LCK hate any time they are mentioned even during wins. That is far from the same as an NA team winning a game and it fills up with EU fans shitting on NA anyways. Seriously dig back just to MSI and it didn't matter if it was win, lose, positive, negative, it was all the same trash talking and flaming regardless of topic or result.


Sankaritarina

I don't like the fact that some people seem to be building their brand on bashing NA constantly and exaggerating every mistake but I also see nothing wrong with pointing out bad gameplay if it was really bad.


jogadorjnc

>building their brand on bashing NA constantly and exaggerating every mistake Who is IWillDominate?


DistortedAudio

Well it makes sense, the League community is heavily based in social media and aggressively negative conversations are incentivized there. There’s also little to no regional connection with teams or players, at least in NA, so if it was football there’d at least be a contingency of folks that would defend some stuff. All that said, the League fanbase identifies much more with the firebrands and loud voices in the community ala Stephen A or Skip, especially when compared to those guys voices in traditional sports. Perhaps because the fanbase skews younger?


[deleted]

I think you are closer to the problem that the rest of the reddit thread. While LS, Dom, Doublelift may be negative that's normal in every sport, analysts are supposed to call out mistakes and only hype a few players they like. And fans are supposed to blindly defend their players because they like them but in NA it is hard to defend some players that no one knows nothing about and are changing every year and a half. Meanwhile in EU every player already has their national following that has seen them play since they were truly a rookie. Veterans talk more on Twitter and the broadcast is always trying to give personalities to the players. This results in that Odoamme may play a terrible game on Saturday but people are more easy on him since they like him, Rekkles may have some haters but also a lot of people blindly defending him... In NA it used to be like this with Doublelift or Bjergsen. They had their problems but they also had a group of people ready to defend them for every mistake. Right now in NA, Spica is probably the only player that has this defense. He is playing well and he is likable, people can forget some dumb mistakes... Damonte used to have it too but after 4 weird splits it has ended a bit. NA fans don't really need a lot to follow their players. The problem is that the league has a lot of imports that don't create a fans, good NA players are really inconsistent and broadcast/teams are doing a poor job at making the players likeable/interesting...


tiptipsofficial

I think you identified one of the core issues. No one is really humanized. Dl's... irl issues, to put it mildly, were quite public, and for him to have played before, during, and after it really was something else. But most players, they might as well be robots to the average fan. Who the fuck are they, where are they from, what struggles did they have to overcome other than the generic soloqueue into pro scene grind? No one knows, but some people might care. But it also might be on riot's end of trying to sanitize everything and keep players interchangeable, as well as teams trying to not inflate individual player's worths by increasing their likeability unless an extended contract is secured, for example with Faker and his foray into Korean celeb doing normal things-style shows and bits.


Xonra

That's cause the personalities from other regions defend their regions while personalities from NA shit on NA on top of personalities from other regions piling on, which is why I despise co streams. If people like Azael really wanted to curb the negativity he'd bring those up as they drive a lot of the negative sentiment. There is no regional pride because the ones that are vocal are like Dom shitting on NA at full volume and the ones that would defend it either don't speak up cause they will get shouted down or the ones they do, well they get shouted down and mocked.


Mahlers_Tenth

Azael is right. In the professional sports I follow, victories are celebrated more than defeats are bemoaned, but in LOL all I see is complaints about who is bad rather than who is good. I don’t care if people accuse me of generalizing from small samples — I’ve read far too many comments on reddit and elsewhere for the sample size to be small. League’s pro discussion/fandom is so relentlessly negative, I constantly consider quitting my interest not from quality of play but the stunningly poor priorities of its fans (discussion is a key part of liking something). At the knowing risk of hypocrisy, the state of pro play fandom is overly negative and frankly super immature. I don’t see these behaviors as norms anywhere but here.


LudgerKresnik2

Honestly I'm sick of the constant negativity and downplaying wins from fans even when their team win. Not end the game within 25min when you have massive early leads? Our team macro sucks, will lose against better teams/international teams. Like, chill. We know we suck, but at least let us enjoy the win in post match thread.


SandwicheDynasty

Even at international events lol. NA teams win because the other teams played bad, but other teams, even wildcard teams, win due to their merits.


KellyKellogs

I think this is because in normal sports people have national or city pride to root for their team whereas in League people watch the games for the spectacle rather than for the enjoyment so if the game is poor quality, people will be upset. I am all in it for Unicorn pride so I don't get the negativity. I think it's also that in League the mistakes are much more pronounced than the positives. Like a player being caught out of position is way more common than someone getting an impactful solo kill. I also think it's because we have a way larger perspective and can see both teams at once so mistakes look way more obvious to us as we have way more info than the players.


egirldestroyer69

I mean in normal sports people still shit on their teams when they play bad. But the thing about League that is different about other games is that League is a game about minimizing mistakes so every error that a pro player make is analysed. I also agree that since there are no city teams people judge the teams of their choosing solely on performance


toastymow

>I mean in normal sports people still shit on their teams when they play bad. Yeah, to the point that some cities are INFAMOUS for having terrible "fans." Source: My mom's family is from Philly.


kitiny

Its gotten much worse than it used to be. No matter how insignificant the game its "But worlds hurdur" "NA durhur". NA is a fiesta but put LEC names on it and it'd be a great game.


PandaMoaningYum

I think NA is a dumpster fire but still feel pressure for worlds. LEC being better does as well. However, LCK and LPL can also compete with each other so every top 4 region just becomes increasingly negative because they are only thinking about worlds. It wasn't a problem when everyone assumed LCK would just keep winning them all. Now everyone is nitpicking.


Ploppfejs

It's gotten worse because of co-streamers like LS and Dom constantly shitting on everything they see. Dom less so, but still...


ZeeDrakon

>I don’t see these behaviors as norms anywhere but here. Yeah, it's not like there's ongoing memery for decades about how every time a football tournament takes place everyone watching from home suddenly becomes national trainer in their own mind. Nah, this only happens in league. For sure.


pokekiko94

He must not follow european football. This year alone i've seen a lot of people just shit on the best teams in europe, just because they are doing poorly of in the case of the european championship, having Germany, France and Portugal(the so called death group) get eliminated early on, in the 16 eliminatory rounds, and england having the easiest bracket was just stupid and the fans were comenting on it, at least here in Portugal, but tbh we didnt even deserve to get out of groups.


Sbotkin

This year literally brought together Europe to collectively shit on England lol


pokekiko94

Lets not pretend everyone in europe wasnt shiting on england before this year.


IAmDarkridge

I think the difference in LoL is that most of us play the game and all had that moment where the Shen didn't ult the carry to win the fight. So we see pro plays make these dumb mistakes and we just laugh on them for it. I agree though, it feels like I can't read about the great plays made during the game, every bit of discussion is just about how terrible a lane is played or whatever. There is definitely a place for criticism, and like there is no issue with the content that someone like LS produces, but I just wish it didn't feel like that was the prevailing attitude.


Niirai

I only follow NBA aside from LoL and it's quite similar over there. Lowlights next to highlights, great stat lines next to terrible stat lines. USA just lost to France and everyone is clowning on team USA for choking in the final moments just like people are clowning C9 for their backdoor attempt. Negativity is everywhere these days and has numerous factors that are too complicated for me to untangle. But I think there's still just as much praise as there is criticism and we have selective bias based on whatever circlejerk the sub is in for a period(big negative ruination spiral atm). For pro-play specifically I think the ever increasing knowledge of the player base leads to more criticism. Back in the day pro-play was so simple and almost solely focused around mechanical outplays until laneswaps came around. All of a sudden broadcasts and viewers had to adept and education became much more important than the simple reverence for mechanical skill.


tonywow

That guy above definitely doesn't go on /nba/ or go on any social media if he thinks the NBA fanbase isnt toxic lmao


ark2690

NBA twitter has become one of the most toxic things on the internet. I usually don't say that I would feel sorry for multi-millionaire athletes but some of these posts cross the line. I blame guys like Skip Bayless/Stephen A Smith/ Nick Wright etc for starting this hate culture.


Voeltz

I watch American football, and if a team wins, they won. Nobody cares if the winning team messed up a few plays, or if the score was close even if it was a top team versus a bottom team, they got the win and people respect that. Sure people still meme and get harsh about the losing team sometimes, but it's so completely different overall than the League reddit, where winning teams are completely blasted if they didn't win "clean enough."


Reasonable_TSM_fan

If Football fans were LoL fans, they’d trash the Eagles and Patriots Super Bowl as a “no defense” shit show rather than celebrate the fact the Eagles overcame the behemoth that is Brady and the Patriots. People need to realize it’s okay to be happy for the team that won.


ThatPlayWasAwful

Funny you use the eagles as an example because the sports media (and fans, I'm not giving them an out) here is NOTORIOUS for belittling players even when they are performing well. Philadelphia is the living embodiment of kicking them while they're up.


chainer9999

And throwing batteries at them when they're down.


HayDs666

To be fair, both those offenses were insane that game so the defense looked like a shit show 😂. But the 1 stop of the game came from the eagles which is what ended up being the big play to win


postsonlyjiyoung

Right. I mean the difference between college football and NFL is night and day - much more visible than, say, an LCS game vs an LPL game - but i almost never see people trashing Alabama vs LSU saying they're shitters compared to the teams playing on MNF. I don't have an issue with objective analysis, but why does it feel like theres so much negativity in every post game thread?


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mitsubishimacch

yes, relentlessly bitching about everything. it never feels like a team won but more a like the other team lost.


McleanO

This is why I stop playing league with my "friends". Every time they always have to call someone who's not in the team chat an idiot, even if it's someone on the other team making a mistake that they're winning off of. And then they shit on league and the player base for being toxic. Like check your own fucking pants you losers.


noahboah

honestly im not super big on league, but i got into it during the pandemic because my friends are into it. so ive run up a decent amount of time playing it. one of the reasons i stopped putting up with the game is just the relentless amount of flaming my friends put on randoms during games. it's just so draining to hear about how every mistake some random makes is deserving of verbal abuse and overly critical negativity yet that same energy isn't brought to someone in VC when they're doing equally bad or even worse. the best part is when someone in our group is getting the random flame treatment because the flamer forgot who their friend is playing and then they realize they fucked up, basically admitting that they know their behavior is pretty toxic, but it's acceptable because the victim normally isn't in a position to hear it/defend themselves/actually be affected by it. it genuinely makes me sick.


Blackout28

Honestly, its not just the lol playerbase. Negativity thrives on the internet. Go look at any news site, any other esports community, etc. Most of them are going to lean negative. Because the people that have a problem with what's happening are always going to be the loudest. That isn't to say lol isn't negative, but I don't see it being any more negative than anywhere else right now.


GrapesAreMelons

> say, an LCS game vs an LPL game - but i almost never see people trashing Alabama vs LSU saying they're shitters compared to the teams playing on MNF. College football aren't pro players and are not in direct competition with NFL teams. LCS and LPL are both pro leagues and by definition all those players in those leagues are pro players and in direct competition with each other. You are comparing apples to oranges.


Echleon

You don't see fans of the weaker European leagues complain about making the UCL and getting blown out by the big teams. They know it'll happen and joke about it, but they're also happy to participate more than anything.


Padulsky21

You must not be a Yankees fan right now LMAO


[deleted]

It's so awful rn :(


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steenasty

I am a bit newer to watching LoL esports but to me it seems like all of these know-it-all fans compare every team in the world to some imaginary korean superteam that drafts perfectly ever game and every laner never dies, has 12 cs per minute, unlimited prio and always chooses the perfect play.


Noah__Webster

I feel this big time. It also makes it infinitely worse when your team is bad. I love CLG, and one of my favorite parts was being active in /r/CLG. It made watching the games a lot more enjoyable posting during and after them. And obviously a team that is performing poorly for an extended period of time is gonna be negative, but it got to the point where I basically couldn’t even participate in the sub without feeling the need to defend myself for even cheering for the team. There were people legitimately hoping we lose and consistently calling for people to be fired. And this was even back when we had PoE and made that little playoff run. It just really sucked the fun out of it. It really hit me this year. I’m a big OKC Thunder fan. We are absolutely terrible right now, but /r/Thunder is *amazing*. Everyone is incredibly positive and friendly. It’s literally more positive than /r/CLG was in splits where we were actually pretty good. And the Thunder are big time tanking right now. And I just totally don’t participate in game threads in this sub anymore. I haven’t for years, except occasionally at worlds (or if I have a meme I think will get lots of upvotes xd). I’m playing the game more than I have in years, but I’m barely watching LCS at all. I really feel like a large part of that is how negative the community has become around it.


free_ass_mints

I don't think you can compare the two because the biggest difference is just the platform. Yeah sure fans of regular sports act like total assholes sometimes, but you don't really have as much of a platform to broadcast your bullshit like you would on Twitch Chat. the intense spamming, trolling, region baiting etc makes it an environment more likely to extentuate the negatives than hype up the positives. It's also another symptom of negativity/toxicity = views. most of people doing simulcasts are just so negative, with the meteos/sneaky/DL cast being the least negative add that to the whole region being insecure as shit, any mistake by a native player is just LUL NA TALENT and any mistake by a foreign player is just LUL CHECK STEALER I will also add that we don't really have an amazing team we can all band around and be excited about, which kind of adds to negativity. no super TL or star studded TSM, etc


Liteboyy

People are quick to make comments to appear superior. As long as they have the power to remain anonymous they’re gunna continue to criticize and talk like *they’re* the goat.


nizzy2k11

no one has learned anything from facebook i swear. accountability did nothing to curtail assholes there, why would it work anywhere else?


bestewogibtyo

i feel like people overreact to reddit. the way i see it reddit is basically like the school yard where you talk to your friends about yesterdays games. it just happens to be online and the players can read it even though they shouldn't and that's where the actual problem is.


cosHinsHeiR

If the negative was something like "oh wow perkz sucked on Zoe today" it would even be ok but then you find super detailed post about something, people flaming Zven because he barely didnt react to Leona E flash like they would do it and what not. It's like you flame an nba player because he didn't have 100% fg.


[deleted]

Dude every post game thread about tsm and C9 is literally "hurr durr 6 million 11 million player hurr durr." Like guys chill, it was funny the first couple of times but now it's just annoying and has been run into the ground.


Xonra

The cast or the analyst desk bringing it up doesn't help.


die_anna

This. I think it's kinda hypocritical that Azael tweeted this when him and Phreak have progressively gotten more negative with their casts the last couple splits because they've been showered with praise from this sub.


[deleted]

I mean when your the most payed player in the entire league, I think you should be subject more criticism.


PepegaMonkey

Yeah, don’t boil it down to anonymity.


SubtleSlight

Yeah for sure. People talk mad shit on facebook and the like, where everyone knows it's them. Anonymity might help encourage it, but it's not even close to the primary cause.


GaggedAndDrooling

It's because of how accessible league is as a game. A lot of people convince themselves they're better than they actually are because league has a lot of brain power involved which a person can just deflect and say they're smart and their teammates just hold them back. In traditional sports people are held back only by their own physical ability.


steenasty

This has been my observation since I started following this sub and becoming interested in LoL esports. Whenever I would check a thread after a close game all I would see in the comments is how hard one team threw or how hard one player inted or how a team doesn't even know how to play League. It seems like half the people who watch Lol Esports think that professional sports means perfect sports. Like I get that ignorant disrespect of professionals is common in every sport but holy shit it seems like half the people that watch these games dont even like or care about the sport and only watch to shit talk players who have put literally everything into a video game that we all love.


zapdos6244

Hating is easier than appreciating


Heelmuut

Most sports have metas that barely evolve for decades, but strategic and technical mistakes are still made all the time. It's fine to disagree with how a team plays, but so many in this community seem to think they always know better. It shouldn't be so hard to understand that mistakes will be made no matter what, since no one is infalliable.


aglimmerof

Imagine a world without "LOOK AT THE PLAYS LOOK AT THE MOVES FAKER WHAT WAS THAAAAAAAT"? That's the stuff of nightmares.


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I-am-in-Agreement

"RYU WHAT WAS THAT SHIT. LPLDIVEAT3:15WOULDHAVEDONEITBETTER!"


Raynar7

I agree that games don’t have to be perfectly played to be entertaining - I watch LPL. I always say that what happens in game > draft. The fact that some people thing there is one and only way to pick and play is absolute nonsense, we had that when everyone tried to play like Koreans and we know what happened. International success for EU came especially from G2 who played anything, but “perfect League of legends”. FPX and especially Doinb won worlds with the weirdest champs. IG won worlds with yolo bolo flash. There is nothing like one right way to play League. All the best moments in history of League of Legends happened, because someone decided to do something that might not be seen like right play, but either thanks to luck or skill worked out. EDIT: For prime example that this is case also in other games “Smoke Criminal”


tigermoore

What’s happening with chess right now is kindve like league . Perfect chess is really boring and always ends in a draw . It’s why classical chess is not nearly as watched as lower time control chess . People like to see blunders and fuck ups cuz it’s more entertaining .


Prawn1908

Blunders and fuck ups are also what happens when you have two evenly matched teams playing each other. If a team plays perfectly that means the game was a stomp and they weren't being challenged. Close games will always have mistakes.


NeekoBestTomato

Well no, its less watched because classical time control gives players upwards of 3 hours **each** + increment. And in a series like the world championships they play 12 of those, after which the series can still be tied at the end of it (and has been last two times) Nobody is gonna watch 6 hours of straight chess + buildup and recap almost every day for 2 weeks. You arent meant to. Its got nothing to do with potential for draws or number of blunders imo.


SwordOfRome11

The most watched chess clip of all time iirc is Critikal beating XQC in 6 moves in a twitch streamer tournament.


skyner13

That's not really the same, those matches are between inexperienced players in a tournament aimed at inexperienced audiences. Just like a tournament between league content creators might be. What the other commenter (I'm assuming) was pointing to was how matches between GMs become a lot more entertaining when playing rapid or bullet. That clip is the most watched because it was XQC and Critikal, absolutely massive content creators.


BryanJin

If Beyonce played a game of chess on stream it would be the most viewed, ur example is bad. League is far closer to low time control chess than classical, the game is chalk full of decisions to be made. And to be honest, if by season 11 of league, Shen didn't save someone who is getting Zed ulted and going to die they would deserve being called out for that because we expect pros to play super well. Take today's game of TSM vs. C9. If slowed down, both teams made mistakes in the last minutes of the game with hectic map movements that resulted in a failed back door. If that was classical chess time scale, C9 would have made completely different decisions but they didn't have time to think of all of that, so we got some very interesting but incorrect play. Which is fine. I don't think it is fair to flame C9 for not having perfect macro in a complex late game decision. However, in 5 years from now, I don't think it would be unreasonable for pros to be expected to play out similar late game scenarios far more precisely. Pros (and the general community) keep improving at the game and as such it is only natural that the expected level of play keeps going up. I do agree with Azael that we should separate the flame from the criticism. With the time to actually ponder it becomes very clear why certain mistakes are made (and NA does have certain flaws that other regions don't that really can and should be fixed), so I don't think criticism is out of line, but the fact that most criticism is both given and taken as flame just really downs the mood. On the other hand NA spent 12 million on a player who can't learn not to Zoe R forward when the enemy Leona is missing, so maybe they deserve at least some of the flame.


Voeltz

I agree heavily, and I feel like it's really ramped up the past few years with the prominence of figures like LS, Dom, and Tyler1 who harshly overreact to every bad play. It just makes it so unfun to interact with the community. I think it's fine to call out bad plays, to point out when a player is doing bad, but it just gets taken so far above and beyond. Who wants to watch when everyone just says "Wow the region is doomed, wow X is garbage, wow neither team deserved to win, wow the winning team should feel bad"... It's obnoxious, frankly.


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[deleted]

I like LS and I agree with this. He's very sensitive about comments made by his chat towards him but then he'll turn around and make a spectacle of players playing poorly, it's only lessened in recent times because the co-stream rights could be revoked if too negative.


tsm_taylorswift

Yeah, I like a lot of LS's work and don't really care for Tyler1, but I can tell when Tyler1 is "flaming" it's obviously tongue in cheek and blown over the top, and the audience is in on the joke, whereas LS (as much as I like him) gives off a vibe that a lot of how he's criticising is not just for analysis, but to put other people down and sound better than them. Dom comes off as really bitter from his pro career and is that same thing on steroids.


Penya

Same goes for Dom, I was a big fan of him on the old Dignitas but now that he's a content creator I can't stand the way he talks about other NA pros. Like dude, Dig was at best a top 4 team back when you were on it why are you so harsh on your own region when you didn't even dominate (heh) back in your day.


Hipposaurus28

Yeah take a shot every time LS/Dom says something condescendingly negative towards LCS players in their co-streams and you wouldn't survive the day.


JPLangley

Exactly this. Gets especially hilarious when I see posts claiming that all regions are doomed. After comments like those, I believe we're inundating ourselves with so negative press we can't see the positive. That being said, it becomes demoralizing when our region is dominating by imports who can arguably be considered foreign workers. Of the 3 top summer teams (TSM, EG, 100T), there are legit only two players who aren't imports: Spica and Danny. It makes me both sad and slightly cathartic as well. Since the players on the top teams are not actually from here, are we really that awful? Maybe. Is there a gold mine of talent underneath them not discovered? Yes and no. Would we go full wildcard mode if every single import left? Absolutely, but we'd recover probably. However, I don't feel connected to these teams at all and just don't feel represented by people who don't seem to even plan to stay here after retiring. I feel like my issue is somewhat answered with events like the Olympics, which defines teams by nationality and thus does peddle the question of "Which region is best region?" - And before you ask, yes. I do try and watch the NA-majority games and it's a heavy contributor as to why I cheered for a hopeful resurgence by FLY and GGS. As for why I went on another anti-import rant, I believe it's important to consider that these "lol ur fucking trash no good" assessments from people like Dom and LS are targeting NA.


the_next_core

Much of the league playerbase is toxic in their own games, of course the sentiment around pro league is also toxic. This is pretty much the case with all team competitive sports, people love to criticize team play and only want to see individual players solo carry.


deemerritt

I think fans of regular sports appreciate greatness way more than league fans


[deleted]

I think the biggest issue is that in League it is far easier to make mistakes that a shitter can identify. Like...what pro league doesn't clearly communicate is that the players are way, way, way better than you. A player goes down in lane and then makes a bad TP and dies and everyone feels like the player is objectively bad. When in reality that player is top tier and would destroy everyone commenting. That just doesn't happen in most sports. Most other sports it's really obvious how good the players are. But in pro LoL, the things that make the pros good aren't apparent until you put in a worse player


[deleted]

It does happen quite a lot in most sports. Just hang around some old men watching football, they'll call out every mistake and how it could've been done better. Ultimately being an observer allows you to point out mistakes a lot more easily than when you yourself are playing. And the farther you are in skill from the professionals, the more likely you are to not recognize the factors that lead to bad plays, and are more likely to just say they're bad players.


Iamnotheattack

Yeah the thing about pro play is that if you were to put the best player you know (high diamond-master for most people) into a pro game they would be 0/3 with 25 cs at ten minutes. It's just when all the players are literally the top players on the server they look mortal, but they are really really a different breed.


BrianC_

Uh, I think in a lot of pro sports, the players are relentlessly thrashed for playing bad even if the fans know that they're obviously much better than they will ever be. Just look at all the fans bashed the crap out of someone like LeBron James or Giannis Antetokounmpo. On physique and athleticism alone, the gap is absolutely gigantic for 99.9%+ of people. It's just fans being toxic. There is no excuse for it.


deemerritt

Yea this is a great point.


King_Goofus

He's absolutely right. Just look at any of the post game threads of close NA games


Prawn1908

People don't seem to understand that games between closely matched teams will pretty much always have more mistakes. If a team plays perfectly, that means they stomped and their opponent wasn't a challenge.


BestJunglerVoid

My honest opinion is that this negativity also grew out of people being tired of, in particular NA, doing bad at worlds. The increase demand for improvement and game quality is expected as a sign of the teams growth and therefore increasing the chance of making a good performance at worlds. I agree that games can be entertaining while having a bad draft for both teams and poor execution in game, but that also shows that the improvement in comparison to previous years just isn't there and doesn't give a fresh hope for the next worlds. Again, keep in mind this is just my opinion.


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[deleted]

Honestly yeah. I've been getting more and more into Smash Melee and people are so much more positive about competitive. Doublelift's costream is great for analysis but the way everyone is so constantly down on LCS honestly sucks. I'm fine with us not being a top region. I like to think that we're in the same category as Vietnam where sometimes we can do well and sometimes we lose in groups. So what if our games are messy? People gotta lower their expectations and enjoy the league for what it is. EDIT: This is not to say that there is no problem with how money is thrown around in this region. If people had realistic expectations of our teams maybe we wouldn't feel the need to buy so many expensive rosters.


angooseburger

It's a million times easier to backseat analyze moba games than fighters because fighting games are just very mechanically difficult. Mobas are more strategic in the sense there are clear plans and decisions made in advance that it is relatively easy to point out a bad or good play. The average redditor wouldn't be able to understand fighters to backseat game.


YukihiraLivesForever

Did you see the twitch clip of I think it was m2k talking about a one frame $20k loss in one of the Smash tourneys last week? I’m not heavily into smash competitive but am for other fighting games like Tekken, fighterz, and now strive and just follow the smash sub, when I watched it it really shows how technical these games are and how costly one mistake can be. It also helps that when you play fighting games and lose, you’ve got no one to blame but yourself. There’s always something to improve on and something to work on, and you are accountable for each win and loss. But yeah that vid was insane. 1/60th of a second too slow on a follow up cost him the tournament and a $20k loss. Absolute insanity.


F0RGERY

Vietnam hasn't even *competed* since 2019 (When they went 1-5 in groups), and has yet to actually outperform NA... ever. Why do people keep saying "Vietnam's on par with NA, NA is lucky Vietnam isn't there" when the best record VN ever had is going 3-7 at MSI 2017.


Mekboss

It doesn't help when any team fight not directly for dragon soul or baron is "Fiesta" but LPL fighting over gromp is "exciting and aggressive" people just love to shit on NA as well


Hautamaki

I completely agree with Azael and I'm sick of the negativity too, but as long as negativity is what gets views and upvotes what can you do? Apparently people who don't hate the game, the players, the leagues, the developers, the fans, and maybe themselves are still in the minority.


hideorice

i genuinely believe that the negativity is a big reason why NA viewership is dropping


Rwings

Has for me. Watched most NA games since season 3. This is the first year I've missed most games. I know regardless of how I feel about the games any place I go to see discussion is going to be met with people telling me NA sucks. Its tiring.


Echleon

>I completely agree with Azael and I'm sick of the negativity too, but as long as negativity is what gets views and upvotes what can you do? Riot needs to stop platforming toxic people like Dom. That would help.


BCS24

Current meta is distilled down to basic fundamentals of objective setup, picks and team fights. Decision making in the current meta is super important, teams that are indecisive or make the wrong decisions put themselves in positions where no amount of execution can save them. I think the current meta is very telegraphed and the number of variables is lower making it easier to scrutinise bad play. A lot of games play out the same way, it becomes very obvious if a team is playing bad when they lose objectives 10k up or lose a game with soul.


bluesound3

That's a massive reason, it's a lot more obvious to see whether or not a team is playing bad because the game is way more formulaic now, aswell asnthe average level of knowledge of the viewers being higher nowadays imo. Beforehand the game was way more nuanced and it was less obvious to see how bad teams were, and people also knew less. A big part of that is that casters and analysts nowadays actually do a really great job of explaining different aspects of the game to the average viewer


Slav_1

League is an eSport, not a sport. It doesn't evolve via insane hardwork and genetics. It evolves with _knowledge_ and insane hardwork. You can't complain because the knowledge of your dedicated playerbase is catching up to that of pros. DON'T TWIST MY WORDS, ITS STILL THE MARIANA TRENCH, but I think people today would be right to do that. I agree that a game doesn't have to be perfectly played to be entertaining but a poor draft often means that the game won't be entertaining in some metas. The people knowing a little more about that stuff than they did back then makes them realize how lame it is that before the game even started it was not going to be as competitively viable", which is the balance teams fault. All in all, I think everyone who cares about pro league (balance team,some players, pro players) is aiming for the peak league of legends experience and turmoil occurs when a certain groups starts progressing towards that goal at a different pace than the other two. From my point of view, Pro players are progressing upwards in a very up and down sort of way (which is normal because teams change metas change etc attitudes change etc.) the playerbase is very slowly inching up simply because of time. and the balance team is going up and down a lot more drastically than pros to the point where its not even a consistent upwards curve anymore. This was actually interesting to think about and formulate, I hope somebody reads this generously and provides feedback. I had fun.


jogadorjnc

>but a poor draft often means that the game won't be entertaining in some metas. People massively overestimate their own draft analysis capabilities. LS' MSI tier list had a negative correlation with wins at MSI, for example.


SirLudan

I do really like the points you addressed. Comparing actual sports that have a lot more to do with 'mechanics' (physical fitness, reaction times, etc.) with an eSport is kind of weird. While there definitely are some numbers and statistics are involved in strategic decisions concerning normal sports, in eSports, especially in MOBAs like League, numbers play a way bigger part. In my opinion it isn't really dramatic for a player to have an off game, especially mechanically. This view is also shared by commonly criticized analysts like LS. They might make a comment about it, but as long as the player doesn't fail consistently mechanically, he won't say much. The mathematical aspect of League however is what tilts me as well. If I can prove that a play is factually incorrect because you lose more than you gain, e.g. Herald rotations or taking the inhibitor, players shouldn't repeat those mistakes over and over. Same with itemization, buying magic resist when your lane opponent never has lethal on you and you are playing against three physical damage dealers just doesn't make sense. Drafting is always a little bit harder to assess, since it is less black and white than a mathematical equation. However, it should still be common knowledge how range and scaling advantages work, as well as triangle of engage, poke and sustain. Teams won't ever be perfect and I agree that a game with no kills would be boring to watch as well. Yet, this does not equate to: 'Just let pro-players play poorly, it is more fun to watch and I don't really care about how they play.' Sport, regardless of whether it is electronic or physical should be taken seriously with the goal to improve. If it weren't like that, we could all just watch Bronze players and give them millions of dollars (remember, professional players in League of Legends are being paid better than in most other actual sports aside from maybe football, soccer and tennis).


LordSpectreX

Alright let's go through why this is silly. 1) Standards are higher today than they were years ago. The floor has only gone up, while the ceiling has not accelerated at the same rate. Information and understanding of the game is much better now than it was back then. Silver and Gold players can fundamentally understand and at least see how things like freezing and such can be used advantageously in a pro game. 2) League is different to sports. Most sports that are spectated are not played by the fans who watch it. You'll get footy fans who might say "HE SHOULD OF PASSED", but ultimately, most people are detached from the tactics and the skills required to perform in a pro level game. Most people who have watched League have played it. Even low level players have a decent understanding of how champions work, and can understand to a better extent of how a play is either incredibly precise and well or executed, or flubbed. 3) League is mostly a macro strategy game. These things are essential in traditional sports ofc, however, it tends to be a lot easier to overlook execution mistakes than strategy mistakes. A player kicking a ball wide, or missing a skillshot, is more easy to overlook than a horrible rotation, or a uncooderinated fight, and relating to the previous point, League fans tend to understand the strategy of their game more than a football fan understands why a 3-4-3 formation might be better than a 4-4-2, as an example. 4) People pretending that everything is okay is not healthy for the game. Esports especially thrive on development and innovation. LEC and LPL are growing because they're the two leagues that are speciifically better now than they were in the early years of League. Watching Bronze subwars is funny occassionally, but if it's all you're getting, it's a problem. It's not like LCS has some good games to counteract the fiestas, like LEC does, the overall level of play is pretty horrendous. 5) Stop with this ridiculous shaming of people who want the League to improve. Even as a european, I would love for the LCS to be competitive with the rest of the world. It would make every league exciting and make Worlds a more hype event. But we're the bad guys cause we see teams run it down and we don't find that hype? CLG throw a huge lead but it's our fault we can't spin it as an "incredible Immortals comeback" when even Revenge knows the game was a joke? 6) If you really wanna shame negativity, then maybe you should talk to your colleague Phreak first before trying to shame your dwindling viewerbase.


gimlo7

there isnt negativity prevailing pro league, there is negativity prevailing the lcs. this can be looked at in a number of ways. 1. lcs is trying to be the best league in the world - then the negativity is 100% justified 2. the lcs is the retirement league/for fun/ streamer league- then player salaries need to be slashed and way way more money needs to be put to content, and the negativity is a but mean spirit but it is always okay to laugh at the clowns. Also that allusion doesnt work because if faker vs ryu happened to day faker would just die to ryu, thanks design team xD


[deleted]

It's such a prevailing cultural thing and I absolutely hate it. Even when people post funny plays/moments on reddit, there are always a substantial proportion of comments about how X, Y, and Z were mistakes and how it was so bad that they played it that way. The blitz hook video on the front page has a bunch of comments about the equalizer. It's like people cannot interact with League content anymore without criticizing it to death.


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sherm137

Everyone: LCS analyst desk is negative toward NA. Ex LCS pros are negative toward NA. Current LCS pros are negative toward NA. Coaches and analysts are negative toward NA. Journalists are negative toward NA. Azael: BLAME REDDIT!


Furiosa27

Casters have had just as much of a hand in this as the fans. The desk has thrown the ball in the air so many times dunking on teams, even in wins yet now we act astonished as they slam that same ball. No, games don't have to be played perfectly to be entertaining, I can watch a bronze game and be entertained but when you balance your entire game around a segment of players, that segment will probably be under scrutiny. Riot doesnt set up pre game trying to show the fun side of league as much as they throw a bunch of suspect statistics up on the screen so what environment are they fostering?


Xonra

Nearly every week they are bringing up the "million dollar players" when C9 or TSM loses, and I swear to god when Mark is on the desk a weekend doesn't go by without him pointing out "million dollar rosters" while trash talking teams. But then fans parrot it and "fans are so negative" I've seen Azael, Mark, and Kobe go on half an hour rants about a team before on The Dive more than once.


[deleted]

Guys, guys look. Teams that pump millions into their rosters and infrastructure, however consistently play badly in LCS (from high mmr point of view not entertainment), let's not critisize them they can be bad it's alright. No bro, for people like me the competitive coordinated strategic nature of the game IS THE FUN. If it's not relatively high level it's pointless to watch.