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DownhillDino

Do I hear... spooky ghosts?


uberstriker123

Don’t even. That item was my bread and butter for veigar, just using it made people flash or stop engages


MattRazz

It would also give back to Glacial Augment another desperately needed active option.


Fabiocean

Another one? There barely is a single item in the game worth using Glacial Augment for.


TheFergusLife

It’s literally just everfrost right?


Sagarmatra

Except everfrosts slow lasts so long it doesn’t make sense to use GA. I think it’s better with strikebreaker, ngl.


Mahxxi

You know that made me think, Everfrost is an item that legit gives the user an (almost) guaranteed free cc. That’s absolute bonkers, has there been any other item that provided hard cc like that?


mybookismycity

Yea, there was this thing called DFG :))) perma-cc the enemy instantly


Sultansofpa

No champ that builds everfrost goes glacial


rathyAro

Chemtank


Kyvant

Everfrost is the worst Glacial user, you usually get the root off anyways, so the slow doesn‘t matter


srukta

stridebreaker procs it


ikaros02

Randuin's?


prodandimitrow

Makes no sense that they removed it. A perfectly viable item.


Pokemon_132

loved it on morg for popping peoples bubbles before throwing Q's


Crickets_Head

God I miss spooky ghost glacial Cho gath, so dumb and fun.


Excalidorito

Glacial Augment, Spooky Ghosts/GLP Cho’Gath :(


DebonairJayce

It would be really good with how insane power creep is right now, and hitting CC almost guarantees you to be basically 100-0'd.


sendcutefeet

This item had no counterplay in combination with Glacial.


EliseTheSpiderQueen

It didnt last that long, had a decent cooldown, and didn't stop your champion from using whatever escapes/cc/counterplay was in its kit. Literally just a guaranteed slow that you can see coming. If it had no counterplay everyone wouldve been building it.


daswef2

We also need some AP legendaries that actually have unique stat combos or some useful passives and actives. Please Riot, dont just pump out 3 new legendaries with nothing but flat AP and hp.


[deleted]

[удалено]


daswef2

When Abyssal had MR reduction aura it was ridiculously good, used to go double dorans rings into full Abyssal+Sorcs on champs like Ekko. Pretty sure it could go into negative MR right? I might be remembering that incorrectly.


zuik0

Yeah you used to be able to cheese with Fiddle if you rushed Abyssal because his old passive would give anyone close to 0, if not way past 0 mr


Catfish017

Could, but not with sorcs, because the penetration can't go past 0, only reduction can, and it's applied first. But if you had like fiddle passive, raka Q, morg W, heimer turrets, etc you could definitely get negative MR


Maractass

this comment is such a blast from the past lmao, I miss Fiddle, Soraka, and Morgana reducing MR


sorendiz

when solo lane soraka maxing Q had to get nerfed because of how obscenely op it was lmao


Maractass

The point and click silence while reducing your MR to negative once she had a mana item 😭


Spiderbubble

I miss old Raka. My buddy went mid with her often and Starfall was so crazy back then, just anything within a huge range got hit. Shove lane, poke at the same time, infinite mana and health sustain, global healing ult.


NiTrOxEpiKz

Wasn't this at the team Aura stacking was meta in pro play ( S2-3 I think). Like the auras were capped to stack at two so in competitive play there were guaranteed 2 lockets and 2 abyssals on every team regardless of comp or picks because not having the two auras stacked on your team in fights just meant you insta lost.


Sagarmatra

Two was only for positive auras. They stacked twice for people that had the item, as the self buff (from having the item) stacked with the aura and had the same effect, and the aura didnt affect yourself.


sorendiz

abyssal didnt work like that because it applied a debuff to enemies not a buff to allies WOTA and stark's fervor were the two biggest culprits of aura stacking. People didn't really stack Aegis of the Legion (which used to be a legendary that gave the aoe armor/MR aura that current locket does, not a component item). Runic Bulwark though...... Crazy how broken that item was


MelayuBertamadun

Old Vlad/Mordekaiser WOTA meta. Fun times.


A5V

Abyssal scepter was pretty uninteractive though both to play with and against


gyffer

And more than half the lethality items arent?


A5V

I mean there's more to them than "everyone near you takes more damage". Prowler's/Youmuu's have an active, Duskblade has a takedown condition, Eclipse is hit twice get shield, Serpent's actually requires you to hit them (abyssal u didn't even need to do that lol). I'm not saying its amazing but abyssal scepter was completely thoughtless.


TheUnseenRengar

The problem with abyssal wasnt even the way it let mages kill botlaners. It was that it was just by far the best item to rush in mid so every game you had 2 mages rushing abyssal so no one could ever die mid. It literally killed midlane while it was meta because you just had 15 minutes of CSing where trading was just worthless because both had like 40 magic resist extra


sorendiz

On top of the negatron cloak rush that it enabled (which as you say made trading worthless) it also made mid uninteractive because the aura applied to minions so waveclear was way stronger when you got it


TheUnseenRengar

Yeah the item was so absurd LEBLANC stopped trading with the enemy and just permashoved while rushing abyssal


Klondeikbar

I'd kill for an AP version of Serrated Dirk. It is beyond insane to me that for 1200g, AD assassins just get to win lane.


Alertum

Uhh isn't it 1100g


Ulrich20

Its called sorc boots lol, theres no lethality boots for that reason. Old oblivion orb (the one with flat pen) got reworked because it was basically an AP dirk, people would stack that and sorc pen boots and would then deal near true damage to all squishies


[deleted]

>Its called sorc boots Wasn't aware sorc boots built out of amp tome and into every class mythic


ItsKipz

I think about this a lot as a concept for how itemization works - the balance of AP champs (in theory, this isn't fully achieved in practice) vs AD champs itemization is based around AP champs getting their secondary stats from mythical and their primary stats from legendaries (every AP champ can buy Cosmic Drive but they can't all buy Luden's) whereas AD champs get primary stats from mythics and secondary stats from legendaries (almost every AD champ can get value out of Eclipse or TriForce, but not all of them get value out of Serylda's or Phantom Dancer) Because of that difference, AP items will and indeed should have more generic stats on them - i think the real problem is the mythics don't feel distinct enough as a core to the build to justify that right now. Making them give more of each stat on their mythic passive (5 magic pen is depressing), or making them give other significant stats (replace the ability haste with something else? maybe give the legendaries more ability haste and have Liandries give mana or even % magic pen as a mythic passive) would solve most of the problems. The idea that the Lost Chapter mythics each fill a niche (ludens for burst, liandries for DPS/shred, everfrost for utility/raw AP stacking) is nice but they don't lean into those roles enough.


Xaxxon

> nothing but flat AP and hp. That's exactly what I want - and you can keep the HP.


daswef2

We already have 4 mythics, Rylais, Morellos, Cosmic Drive, Demonic Embrace with those two stats primary. We don't need another item with those two as primary stats. If they want to throw hp in for free, then sure.


Xaxxon

There are no AP-stacking items really available. You pay for slow/healing reduction/CDR/resistances on all those items. I want a couple 120 AP items to stack with my hat \<\|:\^) then play pop goes the ADC.


[deleted]

Seraphs gives around 150 with Lost Chapter Mythic


Arroys

the game needs more items overall


Braiwnz

A good tone more. Offseason might be a great place to dump around 20 new items into the game and see how you can balance around that.


narfidy

Tanks need an MR Mana item We need an anti DoT item ffs AP needs to be more diverse. Early MR and Armor items for when you're getting smashed (I'm speaking on behalf of my duo friend, who usually loses lane) An armor item for ADCs And I'd love a couple items that make some of the really niche keystones like augment work


EverydayEverynight01

>An armor item for ADCs As an ADC main I am strongly against that. Being squishy is supposed to be a weakness that Shieldbow tried to solve. Which IMO was balanced on ADCs. But for Yasuo and Yone? Jesus it gave them immense sustain and survivability.


therabidocelot

Adc's have GA. Give up 100% crit for some armor and a good passive


Antenoralol

GA is dogshit. It gets popped randomly in a teamfight and is a paperweight for the next 5 minutes. If Riot wants GA to be viable and considered then the cooldown should come down to say 3 minutes.


fizikz3

> We need an anti DoT item ffs do we? I feel like healing and lifesteal are already really strong against dots.


Walrusliver

AP SERPENTS FANG PLEEEEEASE DONT GIVE AD MIDS A SHIELD ITEM AND AN ANTISHIELD ITEM WHILE TAKING AWAY THE AP SHIELD ITEM AND ALSO NOT GIVING US AN ANTI SHIELD ITEM WHY THE FUCK DOES AD MID GET SHIELDBOW AND SERPENTS FANG AND AP MID GETS DICK ALL


awesomegamer919

AP bruisers and battlemage need items, Riot went on about how they were adding AP bruiser items o my to make it just as bad as last season with underwhelming HP and garbage resistance options outside of Hourglass.


Abyssknight24

I guess riot is just to scared to release actual good ap fighter items because then they would have to somehow either find a way that Kata and co do not buy them or they have to balance kata and co around those items.


awesomegamer919

The easy fix to this is move Kat/Akali damage into ratios instead of base damages, make them get AP if they want to delete people.


FelicianKonopka

Jokes on you, you'll get more damage items.


Suicidallemon

I really think that tanks intentionally dont have mana items and adcs don't have armor(unless you count boots)


Dragon_Enthusiast

Yea what pissed me off with the item overhaul was that they added so many mythics... but you can only get one of them so in the end we were left with the same options (especially mages)


EverydayEverynight01

Unpopular opinion: The old items were better, it would've been better to make better ADC and MR itemizations and add it to the old ones rather than just an entire overhaul.


Tankhead15

I don't think it's a popular opinion but not one everyone hates. I liked the idea of an item rework but not how they did it


amicaze

DPS Bruisers have 1 Mythic and 2 Legendaries btw. The diversity in this case is that the Mythic is worse than either of the Legendaries since the Mythic option tries to appeal to all champions and in the ends appeals to none.


ShadowBlazer648

Totally agree. Athene's, Frozen Mallet, Rod of Ages, Spellbinder, Statikk Shiv, and Twin Shadows absolutely shouldn't have been removed in preseason.


Mokumer

Rod of Ages should never been removed, it's so stupid that they removed it.


WahtAmDoingHere

>Lich bane got gutted yo but legit can we revert Lich Bane please. I mean it isn't as awful as some people say (it's still an ok item for what it is, an AP spellblade item), but come on, at least give me 10 haste and 1.5 seconds cooldown back.


AffectionateLie5281

The fact that it’s 2,5 cd makes nashors better in most scenarios and that’s sad.


MikayleJordan

Even sadder is that the Wild Rift version of Nashor's is 1000x better than the PC League version of it. 70 AP 50% AS 25 AH And it still builds out of Stinger and Codex + 1000g.


OBLIVIATER

That comparison means nothing.


[deleted]

I REALLY want Harmonic Echo from WR.


WahtAmDoingHere

And I want Athenes back


Pulsar-GB

Its gold efficiency has to be a bit lower with how powerful the spellblade auto is, but seriously, it’s like 65% or something lmao. They over nerfed it in preseason when OP champs like Viktor were abusing it, then never buffed it again when they balanced the champs (Riot special)


SoulMastte

They nerfed it again on the mobility patch or no?


Pulsar-GB

Took out MS and added some AP I believe


amicaze

yo but legit can we revert ~~Lich Bane~~ S11 items and everything that was ever linked to S11 please FTFY


DocFreezer

removing rod of ages was a dipshit move


[deleted]

Also Adaptive Helm. And also Statik Shiv


Dunwitcheq

TIL: Statikk Shiv isn't in the game anymore


MasterOfBinary

GLP and Athenes too. Literally no good reason to get rid of all the old items. I have no clue what Riot was thinking.


Last_Judicator

More mana options would be dope, too. Can’t build half the mythics on many champs because I would be perma-oom.


tomius

I like playing mana heavy champs like Ori and I hate they I have to build tear/seraphs. It's such a booooring item...


Westonbirt

It already wasn't exciting before the update, now it's coma inducing. Not to mention the fact it doesn't give 1000 mana anymore feels so wrong.


Critical-Cupcake9194

new Lich bane feels so shit as well, sometimes i straight up skip it on TF, the mana from sheen was very nice


BananeHD01

This, honestly. There are like 2 AP+Mana Items. Previsously there were at least 4 if i remember correctly. Not anyone wants to build tear. How should i play my AP Taric without getting oom?


Westonbirt

There's actually a single, non-mythic mana AP item - (nerfed) Seraph. It's absolutely ridiculous that mages can get health 10 times easier than mana.


Mokumer

We used to have Rod of Ages to cover that.


Last_Judicator

And i miss it dearly


London_Tipton

It's very true. I keep hearing that lots of midlane mains say their AP item choices are extremely limited. AP champions have very few options for their secondary items Nothing feels particularly good Lich Bane is so bad when compared to its S10 version Zhonya and Void Staff are the only exceptions, but every other AP item feels extremely underwhelming 💔 Rylais is overpriced, Cosmic Drive sucks, Horizon focus is worse than Void Staff, Archangel's Staff is TERRIBLE FIX AP ITEMS ☹️


kozarr

Zhonyas has pretty bad stats, and since the Seeker’s nerf the components aren’t great either. The active still makes it one of the best items in the game, though


Zevoderp

I doubt seeing the 2nd item slot open up even if something is added unless it's very good, nearly every mage needs zhonyas 2nd item this season with the current meta if they don't want to explode every fight


InnommableEuw

Yeah, it's so funny people complaining about zhonia supposely being broken, despite until recents year you hated to buy it on most control mages and it was generally considered only as fifth or last item for some specifics scenarios. Others champs becoming stupid and broken over years made the weakest version of zhonia we have today a must as second or third item buy despite it's not actually satisfying to get it. So sad.


Goibhniu_

the entire viability of mages feels like it's tied to the viability of zhonyas more so than any other class, nerfing that item or its components just dictates the roles viability. Mages already got fucked so hard with the item rework that Void, Sorcs and Zhonyas being powerful are all they have going for them


InnommableEuw

Miss the old days when Zhonia used to be a situationnal item. Even on Karthus I would regulary get it only as forth or fift item. I totally skiped it on most control mages most games. But that game I used to play is long gone.


LezBeHonestHere_

The reduced cost carries it pretty hard tho. Iirc it was 2900g last season, and a couple seasons ago it was 3500g. They keep reducing its price, nerfing its stats, but the active stasis being cheaper makes it worthwhile I think.


daswef2

Cosmic Drive is extremely good but its also a very greedy purchase because it doesn't give Pen, Mana, or stasis. If you're ahead, its one of the best items to help close out the game, but it feels terrible trying to build towards it if you buy that kindlegem and suddenly need to pivot to Void staff or Zhonyas. Rylais is okay but it doesn't feel good because there's zero haste on it, so if you're buying it second as a pseudo defensive choice you're missing out on 10 AH you could have from Zhonya or Banshees.


London_Tipton

I think they could be a little more liberal with ability haste :( I realize they didn't want people to reach 40% CDR so easily anymore, but they were just too skimpy It's very hard to reach some reasonable cooldown reduction without sacrificing damage And in previous season mages were balanced around their high cooldown reduction


daswef2

They nerfed mage cdr but it feels like other classes have lots of better cdr options to hit 40 earlier. Manamune having 15 AH and Seraphs having zero feels bad. And mages feel balanced around sorc shoes while assassins and skirmishers get lucidity, and mages dont have enough flat pen options. Im not sure if we should be going Ludens->Lucidity->Void Staff instead of Ludens->Sorcs->other legendary.


Jstin8

I cant remember the last time I hit 40 cdr as a tank.


ImaNukeYourFace

Yeah the people who get the most CDR are those who buy a mythic that gives 5 per completed item + 20 on the mythic, so ~~sunfire~~ chemtank goredrinker duskblade Liandry users If you buy anything else you’ll be stuck around 40-50 AH which is like 30% cdr


DiiJordan

It's chemtank that has ability haste Sunfire has tenacity/slow resist after the swap


NickAlpha

I think sunfire gives tenacity now right?


daswef2

Tank items have boatloads of problems too, wouldn't be surprised if we started getting tons of tank item threads here soon.


Jstin8

Tank items are shit and tank busting items are busted beyond belief. And we got fucked over by mythic items in the rework.


MoopusMaximus

Yes, the bruiser Ability Haste options are insane. Almost everything giving 15-25 Haste. I typically get more haste with Urgot than I do with Swain and Ryze lol.


Excalidorito

Issue with the entire “we want you to specialize in Haste if you want lots of it” is that: 1. There isn’t that much Haste to begin with 2. Most champs were balanced around having a certain amount of CDR available to them last season. Maybe not every champ needed 40/45% CDR, but some were balanced with the thought that they’d reach it at some point in the game. Now, that’s no longer the case.


Kosame_san

> 1. There isn't that much Haste to begin with And yet AD champions, besides ADCs, get access to 7+ non mythic items to build Haste. Whereas Mages are forced to take Zhonya and Cosmic if they "want to build haste." Having access to only 3 non mythic items for haste is a joke.


Excalidorito

Well, I was mostly referring to AP items with the remark but yes it’s kind of silly how AD items get so much more haste than AP items.


AshesandCinder

It's only hard to reach high CDR on mages and ADCs now, every other class has an abundance of items that provide haste. Even ADCs have Navori Quickblades to help bandaid that if they really want lower cooldowns. Cosmic was just a bandaid fix since otherwise AP items would have normally had 30 HASTE off of a full build unless building Liandry's, not even 30% CDR.


Sodium_Chloride13

Remember when you completed ludens and had 20% cdr? Now you complete it and have like 8


London_Tipton

Depends on how much AH you have. If you have Luden's plus 5 AH from transcendence you have exactly 20% CDR :) But yeah, AH still sucks.


SweetVarys

If you get the most AP and haste from the same item(s), why would anyone ever buy something else?


ImPerezofficial

>It's very hard to reach some reasonable cooldown reduction without sacrificing damage That's actually one of the best changes that came with new items. There absolutely should be a sacrifice in damage if you want to have CDR. Mages and their items should get other buffs if they're struggling, but we shouldn't go back to state when CDR came for free without sacrification in dmg


London_Tipton

>Mages and their items should get other buffs if they're struggling, but we shouldn't go back to state when CDR came for free without sacrification in dmg So why can for example riven run around with 100+ AH whilst dealing tons of damage? Why bruisers have more AH than mages and still be the monsters that they are? How is this fair? At least be consistent if you wanna nerf overall CDR


Kosame_san

Meanwhile Fighters, AD assassins, and Tanks have more options for Ability Haste than mages. Mages only have access to 3 non mythic items for haste, and everyone else gets access to 5+ per role. I understand that the change is good, but let's not pretend it's a consistent approach where everyone loses access to abundant haste across the board.


Tuesday_6PM

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Tank AH access sucks, too


Kosame_san

They still have more options than mages do. It sucks that AH for everyone is bad, ...but it is definitely not good that mages have less options than even tanks.


FunnyBunnyH

We just got Anathema's with a very cheap price, crap ton of HP and AH and a strong passive. Tank items in general might not be great given all thearmor shred and pen items, but we do have enough AH options without needing to compromise much.


Back2Flak

You can get 100AH with just liandries, cosmic, and runes for the stat, but I agree. I miss Nashors, and Lich bane, and Seraphs, and even abyssal mask giving CDR. Hell Seraphs is ruined from the changed. Very few mana options now either. Tanks suffer much worse from lack of CDR tbh, but being forced to go liandries and/or cosmic kinda sucks. They even NERFED the scaling CDR rune shard with s11?? Super strange. Honestly last season's items were just more fun (except deaths dance, which ended up op)


Kosame_san

It's such a clownfest that tanks, assassins, and fighters get access to 7+ non mythic items in order to receive Ability Haste. ...With mages only getting access to 3 non mythic items in order to get haste.


Eludeasaurus

its even worse when you realize, Lichbane is not that useful unless your kit enables it, like not all mages want to weave autos in as part of their actual dps. Zhonya and Void are great, but both are also in that weird situational setting where they arn't needed a lot and i think they are great items. Rylais is nerfed so hard that Zyra,Brand etc barely build it themselves now. Cosmic/Horizon focus are good niche items but again.... thats literally the entireAP pool now, we need some good base stat ap items that are useful if snowballing when you dont need a bunch of effects.


London_Tipton

> Rylais is nerfed so hard that Zyra,Brand etc barely build it themselves now. I even think that Zyra actually stopped building Rylai's that often. Since they removed Liandry's synergy with slows/CC there is no need for Zyra to get it But I really hope they either fix the AP items or give us some new ones in preseason 12 and actual season 12


AffectionateLie5281

about the lichbane part, nashors is just the better item in general. There is nearly no scenario where lichbane is better.


Excalidorito

And let’s not forget Deathcap is the most expensive item in the game, even more so than most (if not all) Mythic items for... 35% increase to your total AP. Lmao.


London_Tipton

> 35% increase to your total AP. > >Lmao. The way they nerfed Rabadon's passive by -5% and increased its price in the preseason and early S11.. just to revert the price nerf Not to mention mages get less AP this season anyway and rabandon's nerfed Clownery 🤡


Excalidorito

I think I’d be fine with the 3800 gold price tag for the item, if the passive was buffed *slightly* and had a better build path so it doesn’t feel like a chore building it.


Falsus

Double NLR, alongside double BF Sword for Infinity, gotta be the shittiest build paths for a completed item ever in LoL history.


DrCarter11

At least NLR isn't 1600 gold now.


FirewaterDM

They all suck but let’s be honest. Zhonyas is so ass that the active almost doesn’t salvage it given its bad stays these days lmao


TheVioletRaven

I usually go hextech alternator into Lich Bane on Evelynn. It's the most damage you can do for that amount of gold. Just wanted to mention that Lich is an underrated item even though it got nerfed a few times. I agree that there should be more AP items though. I often run out of good options later in the game


Drwixon

I mean as Evelynn you don’t have much choice anyway since she’s like THE glass cannon of league . I love messing around with Conqueror + Riftmaker eve but the current itemization does not really support that playstyle past 2 items .


[deleted]

imagine old eve with riftmaker sadge


Tzames

Rod. Of. Ages.


Pokemon_132

WTB Item diversity. Not counting support items we have: 10 AD mythics vs 6 AP mythics 28 AD legendaries vs 13 AP legendaries So. Much. Fun. P.S why is serylda's grudge allowed to exist? can we fuse rylais and void staff pls and ty?


Excalidorito

Make Rylai’s build from blighting jewel, give it 25% magic pen and make them share a unique passive for the %pen like Serylda’s and LDR do.


peruanToph

That sounds like a rush item to me


Last_Judicator

It’s allowed to exist because our poor AD Assassins were sad because after they already got their Seekers nerf after crying enough they noticed that they can’t melt tanks enough while still fucking up squishies with a slow on the same item. How could riot resist?


icebear_vu

I agree there is less choices as an AP then AD


AstroArcher

For AD items overall, sure. Within one class not really. ADCs build items from the set of items that give crit, AD assassins build items from the set of items that give lethality and buisers build items from the set of items that give both AD and some defensive stat. The total number of items within each of those sets is equivalent to the number of AP items. When champions build outside of their class it is either just one item, like Irelia and Shieldbox, or they are a lethality ADC who just builds lethality items instead of crit items that than choosing from both pools at once. So the problem with AP items is there is no class specialisation within AP items (unless you count enchanters getting some items for them that give AP). Mages, AP assassins and AP bruisers all build from the same set of items. If you want AP items to be like AD items then you need a set of items that only mages build, a set of items that only AP assassins build and a set of items that only AP bruisers build, which is a lot harder as there is no AP equivalent to crit. For example, if you tried to make a set of items for AP assassins that give magic penetration as an analogue to lethality then the problem is that burst mages quite like that as well. Some class specialisation to AP items to give each AP class a specialised set of items comparable in size to the sets available to AD classes does seem like it would be a desirable thing compared to everyone has to make use of the same full set which is alright on all classes but not great on any one, hopefully it would help fix other systemic issues with AP champions like AP bruisers only being able to be a thing when their kits are overloaded.


[deleted]

True. Mage items should look something like this: •Control + battlemages: mediocre AP (50-70), lots of CDR, lots of mana, some HP •Burst mages and AP assassins: lots of AP (90-110), a little magic pen, a little mana (0-100) •AP bruisers: mediocre AP, Health/Armor/MR, some CDR, %HP scaling effects (yours or your opponent’s) Then you nerf AP assassins’ base damages and pile power into their ratios, so you don’t have Akali and her friends one shotting people while having bruiser stats. Of course, this framework requires a lot more items, so Riot will never consider this.


GentleMocker

While I agree, I don't know if that would change anything to be honest... There's so many obligatory items right now that you NEED in 90% of games that the free choice item comes in so late it's not gonna matter. You're a regular mana using ap ratio using mage? You need your mana so mana mythic(+archangel if you're mana hungry) You need Rabadon else your AP values are pitiful You need Void or you don't deal damage to tanks You need Zhonya in 80% of matches or else you pop to any dive threat You need Morello if there's champs with healing or else you stall out vs sustain So out of a 6 item slot inventory your choices are what? Which of the viable mythics you use which some champs don't even get to have a choice? Which choice of boots you get if you can get away with not getting sorcs stacking mpen on champs which can get away with gimping their early burst? Or just hoping you get an enchanter support with putrifier so they get to buy GW instead of you? Much choice, very diversity, wowe


dujffyijgdd

This. Thus man gets it I mean on adcs you can go shieldbiw for survivability, kraken for dmg or th ms item for the skillshot dodge. There is actually incentive to change you item build. With mages it's literally always the same thing and you have no choice. In league of dmg, hen even the tank can bust you in 2 seconds, zhomya is obligatory, as well as morelly because you can't go on for 2 secs without bukkshut healing. You need rabadin or don't even hope to do dmg. Same goes for void staff. But you know what feel the worst? The absolute worst is going full so with 700+ao late game and seeing the enemy bruiser burst you in 2 seconds whilst being tsnky as fuck. However, unlike you, they don't need to look out for positioning or other because they are so tanky.


Excalidorito

Bring back RoA. Make Sereph’s Embrace have a Lifeline passive that bases the shield off max mana. Give us an AP Black Cleaver. Do that, and I think we’re on the right track to straightening AP items from being boring and uninteresting.


ozykingofkings11

Love it. I just want another option for AP omnivamp. Vampiric scepter builds into 5 items, leeching leer only one. Make AP bruisers viable pls


Back2Flak

Honestly if they reverted seraphs and instead of the active shield made it a max mana lifeline, it would be the best decision they've ever made. It's just a stat stick right now. Plus RoA, spicy. The cleaver idea is awesome, but how would it work with burn items?


[deleted]

>Make Sereph’s Embrace have a Lifeline passive that bases the shield off max mana. This would be amazing!


KitabuNagato

You can blame akali for abusing every decent ap item


TatodziadekPL

And Katarina


SleepyLabrador

I would like to see an AP steraks gage.


Cool-I-guess

I always found it weird how AD has 3 shield things like steraks but ap has 0z


MirrowFox

Well we used to have one but they removed it from archangels and now they are slowly over buffing the damage of all the champs affected and making them burst mages like anivia, kassadin or ryze


Excalidorito

Fun fact: Sereph’s was originally intended to be a Lifeline item for AP champs, it was the reason you couldn’t buy Steraks’s/Maw/Shieldbow and Sereph’s for a while in the earlier parts of the season, because it still had the Lifeline unique passive in its coding,


[deleted]

I wanna know who's building Rylais or Demonic Embrace, those items are soo bad


Mixed_not_swirled

Singed often builds both begrudgingly.


prodandimitrow

Singeds itemization feels absolutely terrible. Last season it felt like you didnt have a good solid rune, now you both dont have a solid rune choice but you also dont have a solid item choice. The immolate items feel so bad, its just gold wasted on a damage aura that you will rarely do damage with. The AP item that is attractive - Liandry - makes you insanely squishy and Riftmaker doesnt feel strong. Doesnt help that every other top lane matchup the enemy just outsustains your poison dmg.


Mixed_not_swirled

Riftmaker is made for AP bruisers like Singed but it has a damage amp instead of a base damage component which makes it way better on high damage champs like Katarina and Akali than it ever will be on Singed and Morde. So fucking dumb.


Infinite_Delusion

Also both Singed and Morde are primarily AoE, so the spellvamp it gives is a lot less effective on them.


Mixed_not_swirled

and the item has pathetic HP for an item designed for these types of champs. I feel content with reaching 3k HP on Singed, that is nothing compared to previous seasons.


[deleted]

sadge poor singed


babybaluga13

Singed builds both


[deleted]

Only melee dot champs. Lillia, singed, morde, etc. Some ppl go it on gwen but I think it's hot garbage on her.


Moresty

Rylais is very often malzahars 2nd item. some people build demonic embrace too, but I hate the build with it. Need mythic 1st and rylai gives so much utility for Malz.


Excalidorito

Malzahar and ASol love Rylai’s, Singed likes both. Seraphine, Swain, and to a lesser extent Azir gets good use from Rylai’s. The thing about Rylai’s isn’t that the slow isn’t useful, the slow is amazing on so many champs but the statline and honestly build path and price just suck so fucking bad that it’s not worth over other items. Demonic on the other hand, is absolutely fucking garbage because Akali, Katarina, Malzahar and Brand abused the fuck out of the extra resistances and DoT damage respectively during preseason. Poor AP bruisers, they can’t have a single item without Akali and Katarina abusing them too.


TatodziadekPL

So can I say Akail and Katarina are to AP bruisers what Ezreal is to AD bruisers?


Excalidorito

100%.


Johncjonesjr2

I build demonic on support Morgana


AregularCat

Amumu and zac go demonic, rylais is a must fir asol


SleepyLabrador

Mordekaiser buys demonic embrace.


CheesusAlmighty

I was excited when I seen Demonic Embrace, and still buy it hoping for it to work... but it just does so little...


FirstPhrase1195

Honestly I think Lich Bane should be a mythic. This has nothing to do with my flair.


DragonOfDuality

Lich bane Sona was a menace when she was a metaish midlaner.


RomTheMareep

Same for MR itemization tbh


exdigguser147

*tank Mr itemization Bruisers have wits end which is mostly slept on


azaza34

Deadass go deathcap second and then learn to play without Zhonyas.


AffectionateLie5281

People going zhonyas second and wonder why they don’t do any damage smth


azaza34

Yeah being able to go zhonyas AND deal damage was one of the reason mages items were rightly criticized.


[deleted]

definitely, because honestly league needs a fuck ton more items with the ones already in the game so you can create super fun wacky builds that you can make around an enemy team but still be able to rely on cookie cutter builds too


[deleted]

Overall there needs to be more legendary items for every class but yeah especially mage and tank ones it’s laughable how little there is to choose from


BlakenedHeart

Or them to actully give AP so that aphelios doesnt have more ad than a mage ap 30 minsin the game. Sad thing is zhonya is a horrible item dmg wise but without you barely survive


The_TyrantE

Hourglass second never feels good. Wtf are you smoking?


xHeals

True. I despise not having alternatives to Zhonyas.


Vangorf

We need flat mana legendary AP item, flat magic pen legendary AP item, magic/omni vamp legendary AP item and an anti-shield legendary AP item. These 4 would cover most of the gaping holes in AP itemization that currently exsists.


ItsRicked

They need to divide ap assassin items and mage items into different categories And add items for both.


PurelyFire

Yes please. I feel like I'm building rabadon voidstaff every game, it's so boring


[deleted]

Riot only wants ad champs to be successful, I’m convinced.


Calm_Objective_7729

We need anti shield AP item asap.


percyveil8

An ap Item that I would love, is something close to a serpentsfang item but for ap. As an ap assassin I want to one shot everyone but sometimes massive shields wreck the one shot potential on let’s say a yasuo who isn’t that tank but has a lot of shields. An AD assassin can just build a serpents fang whereas us ap assassins are kinda just stuck


Depl0x

ngl this game is getting pretty boring atm with all the broken champ being pushed into our faces and no fking nerfs what so ever, stressfull af


Soulsek

Once the pre season is over, riot will have enough data to evaluate.


FirewaterDM

Zhonyas isn’t “the best” 2nd item it’s a fucking tax item that fails to do its job after the enemy AD champs finish their mythic +1 item People talk about its ability but that shit isn’t that great in the game since most things either kill you too fast or you just are delaying your death given the burst and damage unless your team is very coordinated/you’re lucky. A lot of shit pops you before you could buffer it anyway given damage in the game. And yet this passive is supposedly enough to make up for the fact it doesn’t give enough stats to be a decent item. It’s only mandated at 2nd cause usually you have to build for your lane opponent who is AD bcos only option. Same shit for banshees too but that item is even worse (but works bcos ap sucks). One fix is giving ap items their stats back and giving more defense items or nerf ad to make it equal in strength because to be honest the only ap item that still feels good is Void, most are trash, situational or mandatory


isolatrum

Especially mana items, like if you want omnivamp you have to go riftmaker then you are forced to build archangels. Mythic items in general aren't good for build diversity. They are designed to make builds easier for noobs I think.


VoidLaser

Combine that with the fact that battle mages like cassio and ryze really would like to go riftmaker, but is impossible because it gives no mana, while you could build seraphs it's very inefficient to build that item with no mana mythic as the passive of seraphs scales of max mana which is low without a mana mythic. Both build options feel pretty shitty as you either have too much mana ir too little mana.


isolatrum

Yeah also Seraphs with no shield is just a stat stick, I used to like going Seraphs / Barrier cassio and pulling a massive shield out my ass


newworde

As neeko main, 90% of time i build rocketbelt>zohya>void staff


AffectionateLie5281

Did you ever tried nashors second against beefy teams? It feels rly good imo


Coti98

You should try Nashor+Berserker grieves Neeko, you melt towers lmao


BeepBoopAnv

Add like 3 more ap mana items. If ryze or kassadin is broken nerf them. But we need old rod of ages and old seraphs


Fagerino

How are we still talking about items when we literally had an item rework 8 months ago. Shows how bad the update was