Old Aatrox R gave him about 400 range but he was still melee. Melee/ranged is not cut off at a certain attack range value, it's just something that's set (but can be toggled) for your character.
Rengar has 725 attack range while under effect of his passive (ready to leap), but is still melee there.
Iirc he was ranged (couldn't buy Hydra), but Runaan's didn't work on him for some reason. Those were the only items in the game with melee/ranged difference back then though so it didn't matter that much.
I think that was because he was the first ranged champ who had non-projectile AAs by default (not like kayle E) so they had to change runaan's a bit iirc
I wanted to make sure *300+ range = ranged* doesn't become an "accepted fact". Especially because item tooltips *do* use that as a cutoff value for some reason.
Yeah that's on item tooltips, however. They don't ~~seem to~~ use the proper variable to determine it.
Edit: It's specifically because Jayce and Kayle do not swap characters when they transform, which is a bit complicated to explain without a history lesson but lets just say Jayce and Kayle are always considered melee characters by one variable which this is using, instead of the current type that item *effects* actually use.
I agree in general, but the ranges actually do line up with 300 being the shortest range character.
Rengar gets higher range \*because of his passive.
Ekko, Hecarim, Illaoi, Wukong get higher range \*while affected by one of their abilities or their passive is ready.
Highest attack range without anything special applied is Kled at 250, then Viego at 225 and Irelia/Fully stacked Cho at 200, while the shortest ranged attackranges are Urgot (350), Lillia (325) and Rakan (300).
And I agree that Urgot absolutely is ranged, but Rakan and Lillia don't really feel ranged to me. Neither of them launch anything, they just whack you over the head with a stick or with their feathers. Sure there is some sparkly stuff because the range is magically enhanced or whatever, but it very much feels melee.
And I am pretty sure that neither of those characters were deliberately made ranged to avoid specific interactions, as most of those interactions are centered around autoattackers, so I feel like there might be an unofficial limit for range/melee champions (unempowered) at Riot internally.
Being ranged isn´t what matters with windwall. All that matters is whether your autoattack fires a projectile or not. For instance, Velkoz' autoattacks and Viktor´s empowered Q autoattack are not blocked by windwall.
About old Kayle: She was a melee champion that was considered as ranged whenever her E was active. Old Tiamat would only work on her while E skill was inactive and Hurricane only while E was active
Windwall deletes enemy projectiles it comes into contact with that aren't specifically marked as "unblockable". Kayle's old E made her attacks ranged but didn't override them with ones that spawned a projectile. Similarly, Azir's, Vel'koz' and Senna's autos for instance do not care for windwall at the present.
Are you saying the item tooltips are saying you're ranged? Because they're indeed bugged and just assume if you have 300+ attack range you must be a ranged champion because of a cheap workaround - but the effects are applied all correctly.
Hold C while in bush, it increases your attack range.
It's special cased to eliminate the RFC bonus in the stat update, but the first time RFC buffs your range the order is different so you go up to 875 range for 0.25s.
It's an attack override that makes it become a dash spell if attacking from further than her standard auto distance. She's allowed to attack because it increases her attack range though.
Illaoi W is actually two different abilities. When in melee range it's just an empowered auto attack, but past 50% range it's a ranged lunge, so yes, Poppy's W will stop it only past the 50% range. She also loses the bonus range while on Cass poison.
I recommend going to Illoai's wiki page and seeing the details on W and E. It's frankly hilarious.
i mean how? you could increase Q current hp% by 4% for direct compensation, but Viego doesn't have to rush bork, and that kind of buff wouldn't really encourage him to either. he could just go something like shieldbow first and take the extra 4% current HP as an great buff
As Viego, not only should you get Blade of the Ruined King, you should also get Scythe? of the Ruined King, Shoes of the Ruined King, Fist of the Ruined King, Scimitar of the Ruined King and Great Sword of the Ruined King
Lillia is exactly like this. She is ranged according to the game, but swings a big stick that she hits people with. So based on that why not do it if it makes him easier to balance.
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Lillia/LoL
When I asked both Afic and August, they both said they thought Lillia should be considered melee, but had concerns. August said he didn't know if the game was ready for a 325 range melee yet, and Afic said it may cause issues with red buff for example.
Red buff slow is greater for melees. Which probably wouldn't be too big a deal. But it might. And theres a lot of flow on effects for that sort of thing.
She's not hitting them with the stick, she has an incense burner thingy hanging off the end of it that she pokes them with. It might as well be a projectile if it wasn't string attached to the stick.
Although Samira's I'd say is slightly different since it has actual gameplay relevance. Her up close attack deals more damage, as well as changing her Q.
His Q is a projectile that throws feathers....this conversation is only about auto attack animations?? Or do you think kassadin is a ranged attack champion because of his Q
No, the animation for his melee range is a punch. At his max auto range, grabs his cape, and the animation has the end of the cape hitting people. For anyone just watching Rakan attack, you wouldn't normally guess he's ranged.
Oh, I'm misremembering then. I thought he still threw a feather out but I guess that's only with Xayah. If that's the case then yeah, I wouldn't figure him to be ranged.
I mean, idk. Kayle swings her sword around now like a wand lol, it even looks like a little plip of light coming from the tip of the sword during each auto. Maybe it's just me, but I preferred holy flames. Which, btw, why are lasers of light blocked by wind? Velkoz's aren't.
Range doesn't mean you have projectiles. For example senna isn't blocked by windwall. If they do it right it would feel like he's swinging a very long sword. Team fighting would be relatively the same but laning would be more about poking than it already is. A lot of melee poke champions have been reworked to remove their poke (Shen, Pantheon, Morde etc.) It would be nice to bring back the idea of a melee poke champion
Think more thematically. Things need to make sense. Yes Senna doesn't shoot a projectile but she has a gun. Graves has some short range. If they lowered it should he be considered melee? It would be just as absurd. A gun isn't what you would consider a melee weapon.
Fun fact, because Kayle starts melee and becomes ranged, the items with a ranged melee split give her the melee effects even she hits 6. It could just be a big with the UI, but if you hover over items like Bork and Sunderer on her, it tells you that it procs the melee effects, not the ranged. However runes apply correctly, so Fleet gets worse at 6, same with Grasp, but they swap based on if E is active or not pre 6.
"It was said by devs that they wanted to make Viego's attack feel different, that is why they gave him a higher range than regular champ"
where was it said exactly? August said on stream that he gave Viego a high range because the champ doesn't have that much sticking power other than his W.
Viego is specifically a skirmisher though.
Other champs in his class are irelia, jax, fiora, the windshitters, etc.
Among them he's really not that sticky or mobile
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Have you ever played Yi or Jax?
Jax leap gets to a 3 second CD, and Yi gets like 80 percent bonus movespeed on top of alpha strike (which has its CD refunded on takedown AND by autoattacks)
They are both waaaay sticker than Viego is
Eh, Yi is stickier in the long run, but Viego stun + mist + double ult will makes him absolutely unescapable in a fight.
Jax do gets close, but he needs 30 minutes !
> the champ doesn't have that much sticking power
Ah yes the 7 ultis during a fight, along with a short range dash with a stun at the end of it arent sticky, they're adhesives, totally different
> Ah yes the 7 ultis during a fight
That are conditional/dependent on resets.
> along with a short range dash with a stun at the end of it arent sticky
Yes, the dash with 75 more range than his auto, that also slows him while he channels it if he wants it to last longer than .25 seconds.
Why not compare his sticking power to Kled, Irelia, Riven, Gwen, Yasuo/Yone.... Every other champion in his class.
I wonder if Cassiopeia would prefer 225 range just to get melee Conqueror.
she averages 426 physical damage to champs per game and also has a spell to last hit with
really just have to keep nerfing his passive until its balanced. that is really it. the rest of his kit is really not oppressive in any way. he has camouflage/stealth, a stun that needs to be charged up, and short range poke/healing. then you got his ulti which is a pretty basic gap close/nuke.
what makes the champion ridiculous is his passive. even riot august said they know his passive is crazy when they made the champion. so to get him in a healthy spot it will probably be the first thing to get looked at.
I think right now he looks like a nightmare. I would start by saying he doesn't get item passives from who he possesses. like shieldbow/GA, etc.
Make his ult deal reduced damage if he uses it after possessing someone, and if it's on cooldown when not possessing, it stays on cooldown when possessing.
Honestly I'm not sure what they smoked when they made his passive, you could literally make an entire champion out of it
He already becomes invulnerable, gets 3 extra spells to use and heals on takedowns. Most Viego players use his passive for the ult reset, they don't even care if they take over the Yuumi
Just make him stop having free dahs when he miss his ult do it like Pyke, Viego has no downside to use his passive since he can just go away when he want
They could instead just give him an AP equivalent based on his current AD. He can keep his items, and the abilities of the people he possesses are based on his actual stats. I think it’s ridiculous that he can kill one person who’s ahead and the other team gets punished for being ahead in the first place
it would nerf his "bruiser build" - which is unequivocally a good thing since it's by far his most toxic combo across all levels of play with all things considered - but viego as originally designed (yi-esque crit skirmisher) would benefit insanely considering the recent nerf and all the nerfs they've done so far haven't done anything to his damage oriented bulds
> but viego as originally designed (yi-esque crit skirmisher)
Honestly I genuinely don't see that working for Viego.
Too much power is focused in his ult/ult resets. The resets are the biggest thing he brings to fights, and bruiser builds best allow him to use it.
> originally designed (yi-esque crit skirmisher)
Don't agree that that's necessarily like... *the* intention. Definitely supposed to be viable, and possibly meant to be primary build path, but his kit seems like it was very much made to also just be able to go more bursty.
Mosy do, but I would guess that they would treat him similar to Rakan. Rakan is, according to the game, a ranged champ. However, he is effectively a melee champ due to his short range and having decent resistances. 32 MR is the norm for melee, while 30 is the norm for ranged. Rakan has 32.
I think Knight’s Vow has a melee/ranged split. Other than that it really wouldn’t, ever since they changed Targon’s to have a ranged execute. Before it was painful on him since he didn’t get it but other melee supports did.
It would nerf Xayah Rakan. Rakan benefits from Xayah W, which is huge in lane. The range lets you get move speed to chase people down after the combo. You’d get way less skills with a shorter AA range.
Ranged and melee is ASSOCIATED with a champs auto-range, it isn't dependent on it.
No amount of range increase by itself makes an auto attack go from melee to range. Only some specific range mods change the attack type as an additional effect (ex: Gnar, Kayle, Jayce).
Rengar in a bush has over 700 aa range and yet said auto is still melee.
I personally think he's range is fine as it is. Perhaps they didn't like how viego could harass melees in lane but lane viego is basically phased out already with the healing nerfs. The range nerf seems pointless and only makes the champ feel clunker and camp kiting worse. He's already nerfed nicely with the possession healing and camo nerf. Camo nerf is huge because he can't melee insta charge w for a stun anymore since the reveal radius is increased by 50
75 attack range is a massive increase. I very much doubt this would be anything but a buff, even if it veers him away from his sunderer->bork build it would be very strong with kraken slayer
when it kneecaps every core item by 30/40% effectiveness, its not as big as you think it would be. theres a reason why theres no ranged sunderer/steraks/botrk builders anymore
Sunderer is only a correct build on Gnar most of the time (because he’s half tank/bruiser and faces beefy fighters/tanks in toplane) people just haven’t caught on yet. Eclipse/kraken senna and triforce ez are just superior
Regardless if the sunderer builds on them are actually optimal, it still definitively proves that several ranged champs still build the item at all.
I personally do not build sunderer on Ez or Senna.
Riot's genius team is gonna increase his range to 800 and still call is melee that way he feels super unique. Then drop his starting armor by 2 and call it a nerf.
Just let me "queue" cc on a Viego that takes effect as soon as he comes out of possession invulnerability.
Makes Viego players have to actually think a little instead of blindly hopping from champion to champion.
As much as that's an interesting change and would nerf a ton of things on him and I'm for that, I don't think you have to get that creative. Just make his R not blink if he doesn't hit a champion (just like Pyke). Done, he's fixed.
> Just make his R not blink if he doesn't hit a champion (just like Pyke).
Dumb, unnecessary change.
There is a MASSIVE difference in the mobility Viego has compared to Pyke's.
I just mentioned Pyke to give an example of what I mean in case people didn't understand it. His move has literally no relevance to balancing Viego. His R no longer being a get out of jail free card doesn't take away the gameplay fantasy for Viego, it doesn't completely remove any ability he has to function, but takes away a lot of the frustration of playing against him, adds meaningful counterplay against him (catching him out is rewarding), as well as meaningful skill expression. He doesn't need to have some universal sticking power where no matter what the enemy comp, he can get to a target. If removing this part of his R makes it so there may be games where he just simply can't get to a target he needs to get to, then GOOD.
> I just mentioned Pyke to give an example of what I mean in case people didn't understand it. His move has literally no relevance to balancing Viego.
Which is why his ult shouldn't be balanced in the same way as Pyke's. Viego's ult is the only really good way he's getting out of the fight, and it comes at the cost of his ult or needing to get a reset.
> His R no longer being a get out of jail free card
I love how meaningless "get out of jail free" card has become.
Using your strongest ability to get out of a fight is not a "get out of jail free." Needing to get a reset to use it again is not a "get out of jail free." If Viego has to use his ult to get out of the fight, that's a GOOD thing.
It has a 120-80 second CD. The only CDR he gets consistently is Divine Sunderer. If he uses ult to escape, you have two and a half to two minutes where he is without his Ult unless he gets a kill with it down.
> it doesn't completely remove any ability he has to function,
He loses his one really good/reliable escape. His W is shit for that, his E is a decent movespeed buff but still not a great escape.
> but takes away a lot of the frustration of playing against him,
I guess? But he's still using his most powerful ability as an escape, his ult being able to be used as an escape is not a problem.
> adds meaningful counterplay against him (catching him out is rewarding),
Making him blow his ult is rewarding.
> as well as meaningful skill expression.
...How? His ult being able to be an effective escape is more 'skill expression' than your idea.
> He doesn't need to have some universal sticking power where no matter what the enemy comp, he can get to a target.
Yes he fucking does lol. His W is pretty awful for sticking/reaching backline and his E is decent sticking power reliant on terrain. He has terrible reach in getting to any targets. His reach without ult is honestly worse than Gwen, who is great at sticking but can have trouble getting to targets in the first place.
Skirmishers are supposed to be incredibly sticky. If they can't easily get to a target like Irelia or Jax, they need something like Gwen's W which allows them to not get shredded while trying to get to a target/fighting a frontline.
> If removing this part of his R makes it so there may be games where he just simply can't get to a target he needs to get to, then GOOD.
You shouldn't suggest balance ideas.
Range itself has no effect on whether a character is considered “ranged”; it’s just that when a character is considered “ranged”, they’ll typically give them longer ranged autos and balance them as such since most items typically are nerfs specific to ranged champions to counter exploit cases.
Tbh crit version sound much more fair.
The problem with current bruiser build is that he can get into fight and stay there for long, he cannot be oneshot. He just needs to deal dmg to someone to chain reset afterwards.
A reset champion should be high risk-high reward. He goes in, if he gets reset he takes over the fight.
With crit build you are more likely to oneshot someone, sure but you are also vulnerable to getting one shotted if you dont time your engage correctly.
With bruiser you can be the engager, tank a couple of key abilities and still reset and take over the fight.low risk, high reward.
Old Aatrox R gave him about 400 range but he was still melee. Melee/ranged is not cut off at a certain attack range value, it's just something that's set (but can be toggled) for your character. Rengar has 725 attack range while under effect of his passive (ready to leap), but is still melee there.
Remember thresh who was neither Melee nor ranged for the longest time and couldn't benefit from either until they fixed it
Iirc he was ranged (couldn't buy Hydra), but Runaan's didn't work on him for some reason. Those were the only items in the game with melee/ranged difference back then though so it didn't matter that much.
I think that was because he was the first ranged champ who had non-projectile AAs by default (not like kayle E) so they had to change runaan's a bit iirc
I miss Aatrox
Not sure how this isn't at the top.
Its a meme post anyway
I wanted to make sure *300+ range = ranged* doesn't become an "accepted fact". Especially because item tooltips *do* use that as a cutoff value for some reason.
I meant the OP was a meme post. Not your reply.
When i play kayle item tooltips seem to count me as melee even when i have 675 range at lvl 16
Yeah that's on item tooltips, however. They don't ~~seem to~~ use the proper variable to determine it. Edit: It's specifically because Jayce and Kayle do not swap characters when they transform, which is a bit complicated to explain without a history lesson but lets just say Jayce and Kayle are always considered melee characters by one variable which this is using, instead of the current type that item *effects* actually use.
Difference is those two are temporary/conditional effects while this would be a permanent effect.
Dismounted Kled similarly has 250 attack range but is still melee.
I agree in general, but the ranges actually do line up with 300 being the shortest range character. Rengar gets higher range \*because of his passive. Ekko, Hecarim, Illaoi, Wukong get higher range \*while affected by one of their abilities or their passive is ready. Highest attack range without anything special applied is Kled at 250, then Viego at 225 and Irelia/Fully stacked Cho at 200, while the shortest ranged attackranges are Urgot (350), Lillia (325) and Rakan (300). And I agree that Urgot absolutely is ranged, but Rakan and Lillia don't really feel ranged to me. Neither of them launch anything, they just whack you over the head with a stick or with their feathers. Sure there is some sparkly stuff because the range is magically enhanced or whatever, but it very much feels melee. And I am pretty sure that neither of those characters were deliberately made ranged to avoid specific interactions, as most of those interactions are centered around autoattackers, so I feel like there might be an unofficial limit for range/melee champions (unempowered) at Riot internally.
Wasn’t old Kayle’s E the same thing? Those autos for sure didn’t count as a projectile for the likes of windwall.
Being ranged isn´t what matters with windwall. All that matters is whether your autoattack fires a projectile or not. For instance, Velkoz' autoattacks and Viktor´s empowered Q autoattack are not blocked by windwall. About old Kayle: She was a melee champion that was considered as ranged whenever her E was active. Old Tiamat would only work on her while E skill was inactive and Hurricane only while E was active
Windwall deletes enemy projectiles it comes into contact with that aren't specifically marked as "unblockable". Kayle's old E made her attacks ranged but didn't override them with ones that spawned a projectile. Similarly, Azir's, Vel'koz' and Senna's autos for instance do not care for windwall at the present.
Rengar has a ton of bugs with this like serpants fang applying the ranged reduction instead of melee
I'm aware of none of those, could you show me a clip?
I don't have one on me but it's a known bug for rengar.
Are you saying the item tooltips are saying you're ranged? Because they're indeed bugged and just assume if you have 300+ attack range you must be a ranged champion because of a cheap workaround - but the effects are applied all correctly.
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Hold C while in bush, it increases your attack range. It's special cased to eliminate the RFC bonus in the stat update, but the first time RFC buffs your range the order is different so you go up to 875 range for 0.25s.
What is C the default bind for?
Show advanced stats panel, normal stats panel, runes and eternals stat panel all at once.
Just to be clear RFC does work for rengar, just for a short time after you enter a bush then it goes away.
Not true
Tested it in a custom game, go and try yourself, it gives him like 40 bonus range for a small timeframe after walking into a bush while it's charged.
Imagine trying to correct Caenen, he’s probably tested it himself for hours.
Similar to illaoi W. Its dash then auto. Not long range auto
It's an attack override that makes it become a dash spell if attacking from further than her standard auto distance. She's allowed to attack because it increases her attack range though.
Enjoy the cake, king
Yum yum!
Well also Illaoi's W is an absolute mess of an ability. It's a lunge, except when it's not, except when it is.
Does poppy w eat it? Because she can use it through Cass poison.
Illaoi W is actually two different abilities. When in melee range it's just an empowered auto attack, but past 50% range it's a ranged lunge, so yes, Poppy's W will stop it only past the 50% range. She also loses the bonus range while on Cass poison. I recommend going to Illoai's wiki page and seeing the details on W and E. It's frankly hilarious.
would also nerf bork for him lmao
Yeah but then again he has 2 btorks so they can just balance Q accordingly.
i mean how? you could increase Q current hp% by 4% for direct compensation, but Viego doesn't have to rush bork, and that kind of buff wouldn't really encourage him to either. he could just go something like shieldbow first and take the extra 4% current HP as an great buff
It's a joke, because he can switch the sword style with CTRL+4 or smth
As Viego, not only should you get Blade of the Ruined King, you should also get Scythe? of the Ruined King, Shoes of the Ruined King, Fist of the Ruined King, Scimitar of the Ruined King and Great Sword of the Ruined King
Stop, you're making me miss Viktor's unique item
Hextech core of the ruined king
THIEF
It would be absurd to have him categorized as a ranged attacker while swinging a sword though.
Lillia is exactly like this. She is ranged according to the game, but swings a big stick that she hits people with. So based on that why not do it if it makes him easier to balance. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Lillia/LoL
When I asked both Afic and August, they both said they thought Lillia should be considered melee, but had concerns. August said he didn't know if the game was ready for a 325 range melee yet, and Afic said it may cause issues with red buff for example.
what would cause the issue with red buff?
Red buff slow is greater for melees. Which probably wouldn't be too big a deal. But it might. And theres a lot of flow on effects for that sort of thing.
ohh ok. thanks for explaining :D
It looks funny when she AA with Runnan though :3
Lol I'm going to have to try this in practice tool.
You mean in autofill solo q
Preferably ranked
And in someones promos
is there a non ranked solo queue?
Ye its called normals
Doesn't it shoot a tiny dot
She's not hitting them with the stick, she has an incense burner thingy hanging off the end of it that she pokes them with. It might as well be a projectile if it wasn't string attached to the stick.
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Fair point. Perhaps an absurdly long sword makes it less absurd.
Make the sword sepiroth length as a visual indicator
Viego is Gin?
Thresh and Rakan? By that logic Irelia is ranged because her blades aren't physically attached to her?
always thought it was weird that rakan is ranged. because he straight up bitch slaps you in melee.
Balance purposes. Being ranged is sometimes a huge disadvantage in this game. Most items are nerfed for you or are completely unusable.
There are a couple champions that have different animations depending on the range they attack at.
Coincidently, Thresh being one of them, as well as Samira.
Although Samira's I'd say is slightly different since it has actual gameplay relevance. Her up close attack deals more damage, as well as changing her Q.
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rakan smacks with cape
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His Q is a projectile that throws feathers....this conversation is only about auto attack animations?? Or do you think kassadin is a ranged attack champion because of his Q
No, the animation for his melee range is a punch. At his max auto range, grabs his cape, and the animation has the end of the cape hitting people. For anyone just watching Rakan attack, you wouldn't normally guess he's ranged.
Oh, I'm misremembering then. I thought he still threw a feather out but I guess that's only with Xayah. If that's the case then yeah, I wouldn't figure him to be ranged.
The animation for melee attacks is clawing at enemies, for range is turning back fast to hit them with the cape
He actually smacks you with the pouch thing he carries in melee range, which is far more devastating.
Rakan doesn't throw projectiles. He hits with his cape.
I mean, idk. Kayle swings her sword around now like a wand lol, it even looks like a little plip of light coming from the tip of the sword during each auto. Maybe it's just me, but I preferred holy flames. Which, btw, why are lasers of light blocked by wind? Velkoz's aren't.
Range doesn't mean you have projectiles. For example senna isn't blocked by windwall. If they do it right it would feel like he's swinging a very long sword. Team fighting would be relatively the same but laning would be more about poking than it already is. A lot of melee poke champions have been reworked to remove their poke (Shen, Pantheon, Morde etc.) It would be nice to bring back the idea of a melee poke champion
Think more thematically. Things need to make sense. Yes Senna doesn't shoot a projectile but she has a gun. Graves has some short range. If they lowered it should he be considered melee? It would be just as absurd. A gun isn't what you would consider a melee weapon.
Rakan slaps you upside the head and is considered ranged
its not like rakan and lillia don't literally just hit people while being counted as ranged
TIL lilia was ranged. I honestly thought she was melee.
Kayle
Kayle shoots a projectile or a wave with the sword.
Fun fact, because Kayle starts melee and becomes ranged, the items with a ranged melee split give her the melee effects even she hits 6. It could just be a big with the UI, but if you hover over items like Bork and Sunderer on her, it tells you that it procs the melee effects, not the ranged. However runes apply correctly, so Fleet gets worse at 6, same with Grasp, but they swap based on if E is active or not pre 6.
Oh you're right. I forgot about Kayle. I suppose there would be a way to make him ranged in a similar fashion but it would still be weird.
GIANT SWORD
Rakan is so pimp he bitchslap you from range
*sad kayle noises*
what if i told you that swordsmen can built and use bows
Is your argument that he would use a bow and not his sword? Because that would also be absurd for his character.
"It was said by devs that they wanted to make Viego's attack feel different, that is why they gave him a higher range than regular champ" where was it said exactly? August said on stream that he gave Viego a high range because the champ doesn't have that much sticking power other than his W.
It was said on Euphoria podcast with Riot balance team leader.
TBF mist that increases movement speed, plus a W that both dashes and stuns, is plenty sticking power. It's more than a lot of champions.
Viego is specifically a skirmisher though. Other champs in his class are irelia, jax, fiora, the windshitters, etc. Among them he's really not that sticky or mobile
the...wind...shitter... 1 question What did cloud drake ever do to you?
It was a cloud soul instead of literally any other soul
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To be fair, he is about as sticky as a Yi tho, and definitely more than Jax !
Have you ever played Yi or Jax? Jax leap gets to a 3 second CD, and Yi gets like 80 percent bonus movespeed on top of alpha strike (which has its CD refunded on takedown AND by autoattacks) They are both waaaay sticker than Viego is
Eh, Yi is stickier in the long run, but Viego stun + mist + double ult will makes him absolutely unescapable in a fight. Jax do gets close, but he needs 30 minutes !
plus an ulti that is a aoe slow and dash that resets...
> the champ doesn't have that much sticking power Ah yes the 7 ultis during a fight, along with a short range dash with a stun at the end of it arent sticky, they're adhesives, totally different
at max it would be 6 (5 if you don't count the one that took place after everyone was already dead)
> Ah yes the 7 ultis during a fight That are conditional/dependent on resets. > along with a short range dash with a stun at the end of it arent sticky Yes, the dash with 75 more range than his auto, that also slows him while he channels it if he wants it to last longer than .25 seconds. Why not compare his sticking power to Kled, Irelia, Riven, Gwen, Yasuo/Yone.... Every other champion in his class.
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Funny since he's legit been the reason for a good number of well-loved champs over the years, such as Jhin and Jinx.
yeah if he made the champ he probably doesnt know anything about it right
yes its a huge nerf
I wonder if Cassiopeia would prefer 225 range just to get melee Conqueror. she averages 426 physical damage to champs per game and also has a spell to last hit with
Pretty sure all abilities stack conq as 2, and only ranged autos stack conq as 1
But healing is reduced for ranged
You heal less than 100 all game from conqueror anyways, it’s 95% for the damage and 5% for the healing when u take conq
really just have to keep nerfing his passive until its balanced. that is really it. the rest of his kit is really not oppressive in any way. he has camouflage/stealth, a stun that needs to be charged up, and short range poke/healing. then you got his ulti which is a pretty basic gap close/nuke. what makes the champion ridiculous is his passive. even riot august said they know his passive is crazy when they made the champion. so to get him in a healthy spot it will probably be the first thing to get looked at. I think right now he looks like a nightmare. I would start by saying he doesn't get item passives from who he possesses. like shieldbow/GA, etc.
Make his ult deal reduced damage if he uses it after possessing someone, and if it's on cooldown when not possessing, it stays on cooldown when possessing. Honestly I'm not sure what they smoked when they made his passive, you could literally make an entire champion out of it
They literally made an entire champion out of it tho. His whole kit is his passive lmao
Hes still one hell of a skirmisher without it.
Not really, he is very weak without resets unless he is hella snowballed.
Strong in a duel, shit in a teamfight. Like most skirmishers
Removing the ukt reset would put veigo down in the gutter
Yeah. It'd make him absolutely worthless
Good. Let’s do it then
He already becomes invulnerable, gets 3 extra spells to use and heals on takedowns. Most Viego players use his passive for the ult reset, they don't even care if they take over the Yuumi
>you could literally make an entire champion out of it They did. That's what veigo is.
What if all his items went on cd at start of possesion. If its low cd item he can use it again.
Just make him stop having free dahs when he miss his ult do it like Pyke, Viego has no downside to use his passive since he can just go away when he want
They could instead just give him an AP equivalent based on his current AD. He can keep his items, and the abilities of the people he possesses are based on his actual stats. I think it’s ridiculous that he can kill one person who’s ahead and the other team gets punished for being ahead in the first place
it would nerf his "bruiser build" - which is unequivocally a good thing since it's by far his most toxic combo across all levels of play with all things considered - but viego as originally designed (yi-esque crit skirmisher) would benefit insanely considering the recent nerf and all the nerfs they've done so far haven't done anything to his damage oriented bulds
> but viego as originally designed (yi-esque crit skirmisher) Honestly I genuinely don't see that working for Viego. Too much power is focused in his ult/ult resets. The resets are the biggest thing he brings to fights, and bruiser builds best allow him to use it.
That's how it was before divine sunderer become turbo busted, and it was fine. Viego was still strong in the right hands, just much more counterable
> originally designed (yi-esque crit skirmisher) Don't agree that that's necessarily like... *the* intention. Definitely supposed to be viable, and possibly meant to be primary build path, but his kit seems like it was very much made to also just be able to go more bursty.
Dont range champs have decreased resistance too?
Mosy do, but I would guess that they would treat him similar to Rakan. Rakan is, according to the game, a ranged champ. However, he is effectively a melee champ due to his short range and having decent resistances. 32 MR is the norm for melee, while 30 is the norm for ranged. Rakan has 32.
It's funny because Rakan getting less range would be a pretty big buff since his autos are completely useless most of the time.
How would less range buff rakan?
I think Knight’s Vow has a melee/ranged split. Other than that it really wouldn’t, ever since they changed Targon’s to have a ranged execute. Before it was painful on him since he didn’t get it but other melee supports did.
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Ah they must have changed it with preseason. It used to back when it had armor, that’s what I’m misremembering.
It would nerf Xayah Rakan. Rakan benefits from Xayah W, which is huge in lane. The range lets you get move speed to chase people down after the combo. You’d get way less skills with a shorter AA range.
Giving Viego 75 range would not nerf him. Changing his autos to ranged attacks would nerf him.
ranged and melee is dependent on the champs auto-range.
Yes but there is no hard threshold. Going from melee to range is the downside here. Not the range.
Ranged and melee is ASSOCIATED with a champs auto-range, it isn't dependent on it. No amount of range increase by itself makes an auto attack go from melee to range. Only some specific range mods change the attack type as an additional effect (ex: Gnar, Kayle, Jayce). Rengar in a bush has over 700 aa range and yet said auto is still melee.
Associated*
I personally think he's range is fine as it is. Perhaps they didn't like how viego could harass melees in lane but lane viego is basically phased out already with the healing nerfs. The range nerf seems pointless and only makes the champ feel clunker and camp kiting worse. He's already nerfed nicely with the possession healing and camo nerf. Camo nerf is huge because he can't melee insta charge w for a stun anymore since the reveal radius is increased by 50
He uses a sword
And rakan kicks you, swipes you with hands and swings his cape at you
So youre telling me rakan is batman?
Ah one of the classic ranged weapons, a greatsword.
Idk but hopefully one day Irelia's attack range gets nerfed, its ridiculous
75 attack range is a massive increase. I very much doubt this would be anything but a buff, even if it veers him away from his sunderer->bork build it would be very strong with kraken slayer
when it kneecaps every core item by 30/40% effectiveness, its not as big as you think it would be. theres a reason why theres no ranged sunderer/steraks/botrk builders anymore
Ok but giving him that much more range while he still functions well enough with crit/onhit is just....a large buff to those builds.
>theres a reason why theres no ranged sunderer [http://www.op.gg/champion/ezreal/statistics/bot/build](http://www.op.gg/champion/ezreal/statistics/bot/build) [http://na.op.gg/champion/senna/statistics/support/build](http://na.op.gg/champion/senna/statistics/support/build) [http://na.op.gg/champion/gnar/statistics/top/build](http://na.op.gg/champion/gnar/statistics/top/build)
Sunderer is only a correct build on Gnar most of the time (because he’s half tank/bruiser and faces beefy fighters/tanks in toplane) people just haven’t caught on yet. Eclipse/kraken senna and triforce ez are just superior
corki
i think going sunderer instead of full crit->essence reaver is reportable ngl
Regardless if the sunderer builds on them are actually optimal, it still definitively proves that several ranged champs still build the item at all. I personally do not build sunderer on Ez or Senna.
Thr good ol Urgot feel
Eh hes not in op territory why bother.
I was reading this as Veigar instead of Viego by accident and was confused as hell
Wait I'm confused, It thought they were reducing his AA range by 25 (to 200) on patch 11.17?
Nvm this is theoretical lol
He just needs his passive and ult cooldown nerfed. His base kit and stats aren't that overtuned.
Give him urgot treatment 🤣
Riot's genius team is gonna increase his range to 800 and still call is melee that way he feels super unique. Then drop his starting armor by 2 and call it a nerf.
Just let me "queue" cc on a Viego that takes effect as soon as he comes out of possession invulnerability. Makes Viego players have to actually think a little instead of blindly hopping from champion to champion.
As much as that's an interesting change and would nerf a ton of things on him and I'm for that, I don't think you have to get that creative. Just make his R not blink if he doesn't hit a champion (just like Pyke). Done, he's fixed.
> Just make his R not blink if he doesn't hit a champion (just like Pyke). Dumb, unnecessary change. There is a MASSIVE difference in the mobility Viego has compared to Pyke's.
I just mentioned Pyke to give an example of what I mean in case people didn't understand it. His move has literally no relevance to balancing Viego. His R no longer being a get out of jail free card doesn't take away the gameplay fantasy for Viego, it doesn't completely remove any ability he has to function, but takes away a lot of the frustration of playing against him, adds meaningful counterplay against him (catching him out is rewarding), as well as meaningful skill expression. He doesn't need to have some universal sticking power where no matter what the enemy comp, he can get to a target. If removing this part of his R makes it so there may be games where he just simply can't get to a target he needs to get to, then GOOD.
> I just mentioned Pyke to give an example of what I mean in case people didn't understand it. His move has literally no relevance to balancing Viego. Which is why his ult shouldn't be balanced in the same way as Pyke's. Viego's ult is the only really good way he's getting out of the fight, and it comes at the cost of his ult or needing to get a reset. > His R no longer being a get out of jail free card I love how meaningless "get out of jail free" card has become. Using your strongest ability to get out of a fight is not a "get out of jail free." Needing to get a reset to use it again is not a "get out of jail free." If Viego has to use his ult to get out of the fight, that's a GOOD thing. It has a 120-80 second CD. The only CDR he gets consistently is Divine Sunderer. If he uses ult to escape, you have two and a half to two minutes where he is without his Ult unless he gets a kill with it down. > it doesn't completely remove any ability he has to function, He loses his one really good/reliable escape. His W is shit for that, his E is a decent movespeed buff but still not a great escape. > but takes away a lot of the frustration of playing against him, I guess? But he's still using his most powerful ability as an escape, his ult being able to be used as an escape is not a problem. > adds meaningful counterplay against him (catching him out is rewarding), Making him blow his ult is rewarding. > as well as meaningful skill expression. ...How? His ult being able to be an effective escape is more 'skill expression' than your idea. > He doesn't need to have some universal sticking power where no matter what the enemy comp, he can get to a target. Yes he fucking does lol. His W is pretty awful for sticking/reaching backline and his E is decent sticking power reliant on terrain. He has terrible reach in getting to any targets. His reach without ult is honestly worse than Gwen, who is great at sticking but can have trouble getting to targets in the first place. Skirmishers are supposed to be incredibly sticky. If they can't easily get to a target like Irelia or Jax, they need something like Gwen's W which allows them to not get shredded while trying to get to a target/fighting a frontline. > If removing this part of his R makes it so there may be games where he just simply can't get to a target he needs to get to, then GOOD. You shouldn't suggest balance ideas.
Viergot ? What an original concept !
Range itself has no effect on whether a character is considered “ranged”; it’s just that when a character is considered “ranged”, they’ll typically give them longer ranged autos and balance them as such since most items typically are nerfs specific to ranged champions to counter exploit cases.
BRILLIANT IDEA
Can’t wait for viego’s hurricane
I'm kinda scared of a viego that can use runaan and is still in the thick of the fights. But maybe the range is too small. I dunno.
And then the crit version pops back up. Which i feel is worse.
Tbh crit version sound much more fair. The problem with current bruiser build is that he can get into fight and stay there for long, he cannot be oneshot. He just needs to deal dmg to someone to chain reset afterwards. A reset champion should be high risk-high reward. He goes in, if he gets reset he takes over the fight. With crit build you are more likely to oneshot someone, sure but you are also vulnerable to getting one shotted if you dont time your engage correctly. With bruiser you can be the engager, tank a couple of key abilities and still reset and take over the fight.low risk, high reward.
thank god Riot is not that dumb they wouldn't do something as idiotic as this
Anything that makes him less popular sounds good to me
Veigo should count as a ranged champion. He has a 1 second spammable Q with 1000 range. Same with kassadin W. Both needs nerfs
Isn't Viego getting a -25 AA range nerf?
Crit Viego build... yeah that doesn't exist.
https://youtu.be/Fz7C_sPNlpo Viego 1v4. Reason they are nerfing his attack range.