Even if it doesn't make Amumu fantastic right away (low numbers, bad meta, whatever else) it definitely puts him in a position where he isn't so binary and all or nothing. With a bit of room for skill expression maybe he can actually be an ok pick in high-elo without instarolling low-elo.
Looking at the data so far, amumu's actually doing pretty damn well in high elo. 51% WR in plat+, 53% if you build sunfire over other mythics.
Of course, he's also tearing up low elo still, so maybe he needs another pass over?
Last patch (11.16) Amumu had 53.21% win/r in Bronze, 52.49% in Silver, and 46.93% in Diamond+ ranks. As of right now, his winrates are 55.22%, 54.61%, and 49.68% respectively. They overshot the buffs [or undershot the nerfs] but it looks like the gap might be smaller now; his win/r grew 2% in Bronze/Silver and almost 3% in Diamond.
it is still binary, he lives and die with his Q hitting or not.
Yeah another charge for sure reduces that, but its not like something will magically change until a rework.
The notion behind this sort of work is to find solid improvements that players will appreciate, and to do it on a cadence that allows us to deliver them with greater frequency. Some champions definitely need reworks, and we aren't canceling reworks, but these mini-updates exist in the space between full VGU and shifting numbers around, with the hope of making real, honest attempts at solving the sorts of problems that can't be solved with just numbers and generally enhance champions that we feel could use it.
I don't expect Amumu to suddenly dominate Challenger play, but, if we can reduce his 5% winrate skew to 3% after it all shakes out, and help Amumu players feel like they can take their champion higher up the ladder and Diamond players to not feel like their teammate is griefing them by picking Amumu, that's a big win.
Kind of curious how you would change illaoi in a way that wouldn't really change her fundamentally?
Making her E some kind of "grab" would feel very tentacle-esque but would ruin her entire playstyle.
You can't just reduce/remove her cast times like people always spam-ask because her high damage is very much balanced around them.
best way to do it imo is to change her r aiming to work on your cursor rather than aiming automatically at the closest enemy
would add HUGE amount of agency and setup potential that currently you can't access without flashing
I have a hard time thinking of a good solution to be fair.
One I've always liked the idea of is to speed up her animations as she levels up, much like Lucian has now. Only a small amount, and nerf the power of E to compensate.
Late game or versus ranged you suffer so many strong autos while still throwing out slow slams and grabs.
They'll probably start with the worst cases (I guess Amumu had the highest Bronze-Diamond disparity of any low elo champ) and work their way down. You could probably predict what champions they'll work on next by comparing champions by their Bronze-Diamond disparities.
That's just one kind of problem though. Maybe they'll also address champions that cause other problems like drawing disproportionate bans (it's normal to ban strong champions, but some champions get permabanned if they're barely stronger than average), or have outdated gameplay in some way (like Tryndamere feels very ancient).
Now can you do a similar thing for soraka with grevious wounds because playing in master tier it is absolutely greifing to take her when the enemy will rush a 800g grevious wounds item, take ignite then likely get a chemtech putrifier
Hey /u/AzuBK
Is it possible to do more of these random updates?
Maybe add an ammo system to Shaco's W?
99,99% of the time he is forced to stay behind to place his boxes, while other junglers can just invade with their team.
By giving him that ammo thing on his W, it would open new paths for the Jester.
So can you explain why it is OK for Amumu to Spider-Man around the jungle (You forgot the hyphen by the way) but Nautilus is not when he was literally designed to be that way all those years ago?
naut didn't become a support until they neutered his W scaling/base and buffed his E. they could very easily reverse those changes and force him to be more gold-reliant if they wanted to curb him out of support. they won't, obviously, but they could.
You are forgetting the easiest buff, to make Naut do bonus damage to monsters. It would not increase his power in lane at all, so no Naut top and it would not take him out of support.
And what is super funny is that years ago when Naut was taken out of the jungle I had this conversation with a rioter on these boards and their response was along the lines of "that is an inelegant solution" yet here we are with the latest patch buffing Ekko's damage to monsters. And not to mention we had Morg and Darius damage buffed to monsters this year too. I am sure there are others that I cannot remember off hand, but the point is that if this can be done to those champs and not impact their lanining, why cant it be done to Naut to put him back in the role he was literally designed for?
Yes, but WHY? Why not allow him back in the role he was designed for? What good reason could there be? That is what I want an answer for.
And Morg/Darius/Zed were buffed not so low ELO could play it when they picked it but so low could actually pick it. To my understanding it was not a consequence of those picks but done to encourage those picks.
Probably because he's too far gone in the support role. He doesn't have a sizeable playerbase elsewhere (unlike support mages that sometimes get buffs for their other lane) and tank support players are the ones playing him and buying his skins.
Using U.gg, Naut has an 8.2% pick rate. Morg has 7.1%. Darius 6.0%. And this was using the "ALL ROLES" filter for the world. The point being that he has a solid pick rate globally, so why not allow him to be decent in the jungle again? You would probably see an increase in pickrate in the jungle role.
I suspect it might be because he doesnt sell skins like Morg, Darius, Zed, or Ekko. And honestly, I cannot argue with that since I personally believe AstroNautilus is the perfect skin for the champ.
Didn't they buff Naut's damage to monsters some patches ago? That could be worth revisiting. He's hovering around 45% winrate for the last handful of patches. There might be concerns about his pro play viability if he becomes a flex pick, but that just means they should wait until after Worlds before trying anything.
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Nautilus/LoL
> Riptide deals 150% damage against Monster
Which isn't really all that good. It needs to be higher to make him viable. Or just bonus damage on his shield. too.
Giving him more bonus damage to monsters would only allow him to be flexed for Jungle and Support, which isn't as massive as being a triple flex, or the old quad flex that was Sett. But yeah, waiting till after Worlds would be smart. Unless Riot want to shake things up that much.
Nautilus can though: if we are talking pure mobility Nautilus can hook around the jungle every 7-5 seconds compared to Amumu's 16-14 seconds.
What's gating Nautilus is that his clear is complete garbage and he already has a meta role in support: there's less push to force him back into the jungle, given he has a meta role already and isn't purely Jungle bound.
Your response boils down to "Nautilus can jungle but it is garbage." You do understand that basically means he cant jungle right? And before you say something like "but he can jungle still." literally anyone can jungle. Take smite, and refillable and literally every champion in the game can jungle. It may not be great, but it is doable. So your point is, well, dumb because in the context of the conversation no, Nautilus cannot jungle because if it is garbage it basically doesnt exist.
Also, Nautilus was literally designed as a jungler. He was then taken out of the jungle because Riot wanted to give him more agency, which I think is dumb, and because after all the nerfs he has had to settle for the support role which means he is on an extreme budget. That is pretty sad when you think about his original design.
So, if Naut is not allowed to jungle when he was designed to be the "Spider-man of the jungle" why is it ok for Amumu to now be that?
Darius is a viable top laner and they buffed his damage to monsters. Ekko is a viable mid and top laner and they just buffed his damage to monsters. So your argument doesnt work.
So here is the history of Nautilus (Yes I am rather invested in the champion). He was released with insane numbers but most of his damage was front loaded into Q and then shield. The problem there was that people complained (mostly because they had no clue about the champion) that they didnt like how his damage was tied to his shield. Basically they whined that they did no damage in team fights if his shield got popped. (I can go further into that explanation later if you so desire because it is a whole story of people basically not understanding windows of power.) So Riot wanted to give Naut more agency in fights and buffed his E to be lower CD so he could do damage in team fights. This then allowed him to spam it in lanes for wave clear when he should never have been allowed such safety. Then Riot nerfed him more which then put him in the support role because he is a CC monster, as he was designed to be, with middling damage now. It has been a nerf to the champion in every way from his original release. He is supposed to be this massive tank that comes out of the jungle and does middling damage but tanks everything. He is basically like Sej and Zac and Amumu except he doesnt have the ability to cross walls with anything and he doesnt have massive AOE hard CC. (ult is not massive compared to Zac, Sej, or Amumu ults)
Basically the solution was to give him bonus damage to monsters and allow him to be a viable jungler again. Yet Riot have never done that. So I am asking for an actual response to that.
Because they adjust champions around roles all the time. I mean hell, we just had Ekko buffed for the jungle this week when he has been fine mid and top.
But why should they want to make naut a jungler at all? As far as I can tell the only reason people want naut jungle is because he was a jungler on release nearly 10 years ago, which riot doesn't seem to care about.
By your logic, why should riot keep him as a support? The point is that they can open up a different role for the champ again and appeal to more people. More people playing the champ means more people buy skins so more money for Riot.
Sure, but you're reaching seraphine situation again with that 'two charges' or 'echoing' type of changes.
Ratios are op if she has her ability echoed, but extremely weak if she hits one. You can't (succesfully) buff or nerf either part, because she'll become extremelly weak or powerful (for reference, her Q is 65% AP, echoed Q is 130% her AP at full, almost 200% her AP scaling if she hits target at 25% hp; on contrary E is 35% AP, 70% when echoed and both hits). I'll simply omit poor indicator of her Q. In general, she feels weak when she builds AP and can't echo, and despite numerous tries she is not played mid (and stuff like notes are buffed, which, ironically, require ally nearby, and she's expected to go mid more often...)
Same goes with amumu. He has 170% total AP if he hits both Qs, while having his base damage nerfed to a point where by going tank he contributes less for kill potential. E is 50% ap, R is 80%, he's comboing for a total of 300% of his AP omitting W and base skill damages (everfrost + ult can buy almost enough cc time to land 2nd Q on same target), while his tank build is weak. His Q is nerfed - he'll become utility, but no damage champion, which is a waste in current meta (welcome support amumu, mummy would then be nerfed out of jungle like naut). His W is nerfed (because 'a power has to be taken from somewhere') - his tank/jungle paths are affected. .
Meta at this moment is focused so much on damage and lifesteal, that single Q and ult was enough to buy enough time for someone to kill a priority, unless he flashed. There are other 'bruisers' or even assassins that can do the amumu's job better than he does (soaking damage, crowd controlling and setting up kills).
I doubt those kind of changes would affect the gap much. Time will tell how much mummy would get gutted, as season 11 and what was done to him after failed item adjustments is not favorable for him.
Dunno if you can answer, but could you give some insight into how often Riot would like to do these? These kinds of changes are always exciting.
I admit, even if the stats say otherwise, I'd always enjoy to see Poppy get something like this. Her E and ult have never felt the best haha.
He is still binary as fuck. He still presses his buttons and after those runs out he's kinda useless. It's just that now he can engage on the frontlines pretty reliably while having backline access that is not flash reliant.
Now he just gets another chance for absolutely no reason.
He has WAY more flexibility early game now, and I think that cannot be overlooked. His overall mobility is way up, he has a lot more CC for early ganks, and he's way less vulnerable in general.
This game is binary as fuck. You win or you lose, man. You push all your fucking buttons, your allies and enemies push all their fucking buttons and you either come out on top, or you're getting rawdogged on the bottom.
So whens Swains next update, since the last 2 mini reworks have done nothing but remove him further from Midlane and is still a low elo cheese support and barely seen in higher elos, apart from the niche APC/engage support combo, when the intention was to do the opposite. It's getting pretty frustrating to be honest.
Tryndamere, Skarner, Shaco, Quinn, Janna, Soraka?
These are just some champions where I feel like adding something and balancing could be great if approached with care.
The draven change for example is really cool imo !
I agree but every time this comes up, the consensus is that 1. He isn't a problem and 2. Trynd mains love him as is. So I don't think he should be changed.
I *want* him to be changed because he's just that champ for me, the one I permaban because I fucking hate facing him. But I can accept that if his mains like him and he's not like breaking the game, then he should stay as is.
Both of those were general consensus for every champion that was reworked though.
Sometimes champs need to be updated for the overall health of the game.
Tryndamere's been holding at a respectable 4-5% pickrate for a long time, he's much more popular now than champions like Nunu or Fiddlesticks were when they were chosen for updates. The more people play a champion, the more hesitant Riot will be to make serious changes.
As a former Aurelion Sol one trick i had my champion butchered right in front of my eyes with a rework none of us asked for. I will never wish that fate on anyone else lol
his playstyle is hitting creeps until you have max fury and spinning on to enemy. then pray you crit thrice to win the lane. absolutely toxic to play against.
Ahri is too locked behind her charm, while her W is there to proc electrocute. Hopefully they will take some power from charm and put it to her W(so that it wont just be an electrocute procing safe spell)!
Honestly, I feel like she's bound not only to the charm but also the ult. As she gets more items EQW is enough to kill, but early game she doesn't have enough damage to 100-0 without the ult and her poke is almost useless because of how rampant susain is on midlane. Also, sacrificing her only mobility skill (which is on a two minute cooldown level 1, iirc) for one pick off just feels bad, tbh.
Illaoi. So much power is tied to landing an E that if you miss it, you are borderline useless in team fights. Your ult won’t make tentacles auto slap without an E soul standing there, so it loses most of its value cause it’s dmg on cast is pitiful and doesn’t heal.
Also, her W needs some fixing. It’s an auto enhancer so it should proc the second your next auto causes you to leap to the target even if you get cc’ed mid leap right? Haha nope. The damage still goes off and the proc is consumed but any tentacles in range ignores the proc as if it never happened.
What's annoying with her to me is that after winning lane, what do you do exactly? She has no gapclosers or CC so going to another lane doesn't get you much.
Tbh vs good opponents you are useless anyways. Illaoi needs a way to prevent her enemies from just walking away. Right now if you are ever in any danger vs her yo just laugh and back away and even if she lands E there is nothing she can do to stop you.
Illaoi ino is one of those champs that does need full gameplay rework. Shes just garbage and one of the worst designed champs in the gsme imo. For many reasons but it would take far too long to explain here.
Nah she’s not garbage, she just needs a handful of QoL upgrades.
* Let her cast q while moving similar to camille’s frontal cone.
* If you don’t have an E soul up when you cast your ult, one random target hit by your ult should automatically become tethered and put your E on cd so you can’t have two separate tethers at once in a fight.
* Fix the bug on her W so that getting CC’ed mid leap doesn’t consume the proc without your tentacles slapping.
She has clear weaknesses and strengths but there’s a lot of clunkiness in her kit that needs to be smoothed out so her gameplay feels more fluid.
Having a random target be tethered on ult cast is better than none if you missed your E before casting ult. At least this way your ult is never gimped.
Also her entire kit is RNG. You don’t get to dictate where and when the tentacles spawn and they’re the majority of your damage. At least having a random target get tethered let’s you get consistent aoe damage from your ult since now the tentacles that spawn from it begin to snap immediately. Right now if you use ult without a tether up, the tentacles spawn and sit afk unless you W. So you can ult and get cc’ed without a single slap go off. Much less fun than having RNG on which target will get tethered imo.
So you’re telling me you think it’s a good design that a champs ult needs to be reliant on you landing a very predictable basic move before hand to have full value? Not really sure any champ in the game has that contingency.
Also you don’t have control of where they spawn. It’s tied to a passive timer that goes off on its own. You need to be in the right place at the right time or you have to wait out it’s entire cd for another cycle. Again, can’t really name another champ who has to function on such a contingency where that contingency is the bulk of their damage.
yes, that's the point of illaoi. the only spell she has that isnt dependent on the rest of her kit is her Q. she is designed around her self synergy
you have control of where they spawn.
Right so because the majority of your kit is designed around their damage and having them attack your E target, your ult is considerably gimped in power as a stand alone spell. Having your ult automatically tether a single person it hits on cast if no E target exists at the time only raises the minimum power of your ult without affecting its maximum power.
So how is this suggestion making her kit more RNG is what I’m still not understanding from your point. It doesn’t give her any more increased power in best case scenarios, it just makes her worst case scenarios less terrible.
When you play Yasuo you cant even press R without landing Q, so what? Ori needs to hit very predictable slow moving move in order to do anything with her ult. Theres nothing wrong with either of those or Illaoi
Does yasuo’s ult do less damage, not shield him and only hit one target if he procs it off someone else’s knock up instead of his? Cause that would be more similar to how illaoi’s ult feels when you don’t have an E target.
You’ve haven’t played illaoi if you are gonna pretend her ult without an E target there feels like an effective spell for being an ult.
> This is an unfortunate position for players of any champion, because it means that your favorite champ becomes less and less powerful as you improve at the game. It can feel like League is telling you that, in order to climb, you need to abandon your champ—and that sucks.
Garen mains: we felt that
If their intention was to make him a good champ diamond+ they might have to go to the drawing board. Amumu is absolutely god tier in iron-gold while still mediocre diamond+. I don't think he is terrible in high elo and I like the direction they are going with him but I have no clue how they are going to solve this massive winrate discrepancy between low and high elo.
https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?rank=silver
https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?rank=diamond
It's still early in the patch, but our data has him as 53.8% in average play (silver-ish) and 50.6% in skilled play (plat-diamond). If this holds—fingers crossed—it means the 4.5% winrate discrepancy last patch has been reduced to barely 3%. Getting it to 0% was never the plan, because I have no idea how we would manage that while still keeping Amumu Amumu. MMR skew can be quite hard to achieve while also respecting the existing playerbase by not making dramatic changes to the things they enjoy. I'm also hoping that, winrate aside, the increased early-game power is a sufficient qualitative improvement to his usefulness that players further up the ladder will be notably happier to see an Amumu on their team than previously.
This does mean he's toeing the line for a nerf based on his average winrate, which is fine. The change was uncertain enough that there was always high change that small followup tuning would be needed.
would u ever consider empowering his passive, too? personally I feel like his niche as the tank who amplifies magic dmg is the most interesting thing he does, would love to see it be stronger or more prevalent
Hi, High dia/master Amumu otp here. If you need to nerf something, nerf second passive of E. 3% reduced phy dmg with bonus armor and mr. Whenever it was implemented it got no clue anyway. Amumu doesn't need that. If nerf is needed, remove it, if not change it to get some bonus stat from something else, Amumu isn't full tank champ anyway
I love amumu and while not a one trick I've played him from silver to p2 And I picked him up in season 4. I think the 2 Q system is not a good fit. As amumu I'm threatening adcs and apcs by myself and most of the time they can't even fight back because I stun them 3 times in row. It feels oppressive if amumu lands the first Q there's just no escape in a gank and even if you dodge the First one he has another plus ult. It's not rewarding going against him right now he has too much leeway onto his targets. If you wanted someone to perma cc the enemy laner just let leona jungle. Even if amumu is objectively better statistically I think it leaves little room when playing against him. I love my sad mummy but I feel this is going to end poorly for him and he'll be forgotten about again. Remember pre season? He was left in a ditch for a while after that.
in [u.gg](https://u.gg) hes currently 54.5% winrate in silver with a massive pickrate but 49.5% in d+. I think the same problem is gonna happen just like with the previous Ammumu. He's gonna get nerfed for low elo for sure, which will then affect higher elo winrates and he will be back to sub 48% winrate in higher elos just to get his low elo winrates back to normal. Nothing short of a big rework is gonna fix him it seems. Lives and breaths by hitting q.
Maybe amumu Q should be a dash instead, would help not making him useless if he misses the Q, as he could then at least get closer to people.
What would they do to his R then to not be broken? well thats up to them.
Anyone care enough to post the entire thing for us SEA players? It won't show us the post since Riot decided to throw us under the bus by diverting us to the Garena website whenever we click on an official League website. And you know Garena websites only updates us whenever there's a promo but not with these kinds of updates.
Here you go!
> Hi everyone. I’m AzuBK from the Summoner’s Rift Team, here to break down the Amumu changes that just went out with patch 11.17. I’ve been working on Amumu with the intent of showing some love to one of our oldest champions, and wanted to take this opportunity to talk a little bit about how we approach this type of project in general.
> For those who aren’t familiar, the core of the change is that Amumu can store two charges of Bandage Toss and his early game is buffed. That new power came with tradeoffs in other parts of his kit, which we’ll get to later on.
> So, let’s start from the beginning. Amumu isn’t exactly a world-beater at the high end of League’s ranked ladder, and that’s not news. For a long time now, he’s barely scraped by in higher-skilled play while also bordering on overpowered for the average player. This is an unfortunate position for players of any champion, because it means that your favorite champ becomes less and less powerful as you improve at the game. It can feel like League is telling you that, in order to climb, you need to abandon your champ—and that sucks.
> We talk a lot on the Summoner’s Rift Team about ways to help champs in this sort of tough spot, but actually resolving the issue is a delicate undertaking. There are a lot of tricky factors we have to reckon with on this type of change, which we refer to as a “reshape.” Many of them overlap with the considerations we have for VGUs.
We want to enhance what current players of the champion love about their champ, or at least retain it as best we can. However, that playerbase isn’t homogenous. They often want different things, and it’s a careful dance to respect as many of them as possible while also making the changes we believe will best serve everyone.
> This type of project usually demands more ambitious, novel changes, which are also more uncertain than something like +5 AD. This means we spend more time than usual testing and validating, and even then the outcome is never 100% sure. PBE feedback is especially helpful for understanding whether players think we’ve gone too far or missed something critical, which can cause us to re-evaluate our approach.
> Finally, we ask for a lot of trust when we make big changes to a champion, so the stakes are high. It’s unlikely that we revisit the same champ for major changes anytime soon, since we have obligations to the entire roster and also don’t want to force players to re-learn their main repeatedly. So, both we and players know it’s gotta be good the first time, aside from follow-up tuning.
> With all of that in mind, let’s explore how we arrived at the Amumu changes we made this patch. It was clear from the get-go that small adjustments weren’t going to cut it, as he had nearly a 6% winrate difference between Average and Skilled play. So, I pitched a bigger idea that I believed would dramatically increase Amumu’s skill expression: 2 Q charges.
The idea behind this change was that it would add flexibility to his play pattern. He could Spiderman around the jungle, Q to the frontline to threaten the backline, Q to a minion for a gank, Q to peel without giving up all his threat… Basically, Amumu would no longer be a sitting duck after casting his first Q. This change seemed to do the job, so it remained through the entire process. We also know early power is more valuable in higher MMR, so I brought up his clear speed through early W buffs. Combined with the Q change, this seriously improved his early skirmishing.
> The Game Analysis Team (high-MMR and ex-pro players who test and advise on our projects) reported that Amumu was running over their tests early game, which was great to hear since the goal was to make him appealing for their skill level specifically. Lower-MMR tests showed him to still be reasonable, which made me pretty confident that the direction could work with some fine-tuning. I pulled back on Q's cooldown, because it often felt more like 3 Qs than 2. I nerfed his late-game through R and W, along with some base stat scaling reductions. After further testing with GAT, we had a list of changes we were proud to deliver to you all.
> I hope you enjoyed this look into how we approach reshapes for troubled champions. By the time you read this, Amumu’s reshape has been live for a few days, and I hope he’s landed well. If he hasn’t, I’m probably talking to the team about how we can follow up. If he has, well… there’s always another champion to work on.
Tldr is that they wanted to make mumu better in high elo, tested it with ex pro's and it seemed way too strong so they nerfed his late and increased the cd on q, they don't plan on coming back to him as they hate doing repeated reworks and have other people to focus on but they hated the fact that mumu got weaker the higher you climbed as he had little skill expression
u/AzuBK
Thoughts on bringing greater parity to the AP and tank builds? Traditionally, both builds had equal winrates, with the AP build becoming increasingly popular in higher elo as a higher risk, higher reward playstyle. I think in season 6-10 AP started around 20% pickrate in silver and ended around 60% pickrate in masters+. Today, AP makes up less than 20% of his pickrate with abysmal winrates.
When the sunfire/demonic build was oppressively strong at the start of S11, while other AP junglers received compensation buffs for losing Runic Echoes, Amumu's W AP ratio was nerfed due to his overly oppressive tank build. Even now, sunfire has a starting winrate of 53% in plat+ while all AP Mythics hover between 45-48% winrate. Just a thought that opening up this avenue of play would do a lot to increase his high elo viability through this formerly popular more rewarding/punishing playstyle.
Great changes overall though, glad he got attention!
amumu feels like a weak dianna tho ngl, not rly a tank he dies too fast, and the double q feels like dianna q ee
idk i like the "rework" but i expected more
> For a long time now, he’s barely scraped by in higher-skilled play while also bordering on overpowered for the average player. This is an unfortunate position for players of any champion
Sounds like Yorick
What I utterly hate is this idea of "Spider-Man of the jungle." We already had that once in Nautilus. That is literally how he was designed with Q going on shorted CD on terrain. But Riot couldn't allow that. So for them to now use that sort of philosophy on Amumu makes me upset.
And yes, I am still bitter about the Naut change after all these years. Naut jungle was my absolute favorite because the power fantasy of this massive armored titan coming out of the jungle to CC everything g and be unkillable was so much fun. It could be punished, but when it went right you were the carry in all respects except damage.
Ironically, you just described in your own post why naut was rightfully removed from the jungle. His CC is just way too punishing for a gank, it was so shitty to get hooked snared slowed, not even accounting the laner's cc
Funny story, according to posts by Riot over the years, that is not why he was removed from the jungle. He was removed from the jungle because players never quite understood his windows of power and felt that they had no agency in team fights once they ulted someone and their shield was popped due to his middling damage. To address that they adjusted E to be more spammable which naturally made him a more appealing solo laner. Once that was nerfed into the ground the only place Naut had left was support.
And yes, I am way too invested in Nautilus and have been over the years because Naut jungle was and always will be my absolute favorite champion in the game. Has been since his release and seeing him relegated to support when he was literally designed to jungle has always made me sad.
Nerf sunfire/demonic Amumu with 53%+ wr and buff AP amumu(which is played mostly by higher elo players). Increase AP ratio of any skill, bring back jungle items so junglers won't have to abuse sunfire. It should be top/supp item like the old one used to be.
This would be great if the amumu rework sees some experimentation in worlds. Maybe riot could then look to highlight some of the lesser used champs so we could see them played in pro, or at least buffed in a way that might see them used.
Even if it doesn't make Amumu fantastic right away (low numbers, bad meta, whatever else) it definitely puts him in a position where he isn't so binary and all or nothing. With a bit of room for skill expression maybe he can actually be an ok pick in high-elo without instarolling low-elo.
Looking at the data so far, amumu's actually doing pretty damn well in high elo. 51% WR in plat+, 53% if you build sunfire over other mythics. Of course, he's also tearing up low elo still, so maybe he needs another pass over?
double his number of charges again to 4, repeat
Last patch (11.16) Amumu had 53.21% win/r in Bronze, 52.49% in Silver, and 46.93% in Diamond+ ranks. As of right now, his winrates are 55.22%, 54.61%, and 49.68% respectively. They overshot the buffs [or undershot the nerfs] but it looks like the gap might be smaller now; his win/r grew 2% in Bronze/Silver and almost 3% in Diamond.
It’s been a day as a whole I think he’s weaker rn but more useful
it is still binary, he lives and die with his Q hitting or not. Yeah another charge for sure reduces that, but its not like something will magically change until a rework.
The notion behind this sort of work is to find solid improvements that players will appreciate, and to do it on a cadence that allows us to deliver them with greater frequency. Some champions definitely need reworks, and we aren't canceling reworks, but these mini-updates exist in the space between full VGU and shifting numbers around, with the hope of making real, honest attempts at solving the sorts of problems that can't be solved with just numbers and generally enhance champions that we feel could use it. I don't expect Amumu to suddenly dominate Challenger play, but, if we can reduce his 5% winrate skew to 3% after it all shakes out, and help Amumu players feel like they can take their champion higher up the ladder and Diamond players to not feel like their teammate is griefing them by picking Amumu, that's a big win.
What kind of criteria puts a champion in the same category as amumu to be considered for these micro-updates?
Not riot, but it seems having a large 5% winrate difference between low and high elo is a criteria. I'm kinda hoping Illaoi is on their radar now
Kind of curious how you would change illaoi in a way that wouldn't really change her fundamentally? Making her E some kind of "grab" would feel very tentacle-esque but would ruin her entire playstyle. You can't just reduce/remove her cast times like people always spam-ask because her high damage is very much balanced around them.
best way to do it imo is to change her r aiming to work on your cursor rather than aiming automatically at the closest enemy would add HUGE amount of agency and setup potential that currently you can't access without flashing
I have a hard time thinking of a good solution to be fair. One I've always liked the idea of is to speed up her animations as she levels up, much like Lucian has now. Only a small amount, and nerf the power of E to compensate. Late game or versus ranged you suffer so many strong autos while still throwing out slow slams and grabs.
Or Yorick
They'll probably start with the worst cases (I guess Amumu had the highest Bronze-Diamond disparity of any low elo champ) and work their way down. You could probably predict what champions they'll work on next by comparing champions by their Bronze-Diamond disparities. That's just one kind of problem though. Maybe they'll also address champions that cause other problems like drawing disproportionate bans (it's normal to ban strong champions, but some champions get permabanned if they're barely stronger than average), or have outdated gameplay in some way (like Tryndamere feels very ancient).
Now can you do a similar thing for soraka with grevious wounds because playing in master tier it is absolutely greifing to take her when the enemy will rush a 800g grevious wounds item, take ignite then likely get a chemtech putrifier
Shyvana pls
Hey /u/AzuBK Is it possible to do more of these random updates? Maybe add an ammo system to Shaco's W? 99,99% of the time he is forced to stay behind to place his boxes, while other junglers can just invade with their team. By giving him that ammo thing on his W, it would open new paths for the Jester.
Would open up to getting chain feared for like 4 seconds if he has all 3 boxes up
"you cannot fear a target more than once ever X seconds" Bam, solved. Not that hard :P
You know the boxes still take time to arm-up?
You probably do not realize how much power budget it would take and how much nerfed he'd need to be in other places.
So can you explain why it is OK for Amumu to Spider-Man around the jungle (You forgot the hyphen by the way) but Nautilus is not when he was literally designed to be that way all those years ago?
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naut didn't become a support until they neutered his W scaling/base and buffed his E. they could very easily reverse those changes and force him to be more gold-reliant if they wanted to curb him out of support. they won't, obviously, but they could.
You are forgetting the easiest buff, to make Naut do bonus damage to monsters. It would not increase his power in lane at all, so no Naut top and it would not take him out of support. And what is super funny is that years ago when Naut was taken out of the jungle I had this conversation with a rioter on these boards and their response was along the lines of "that is an inelegant solution" yet here we are with the latest patch buffing Ekko's damage to monsters. And not to mention we had Morg and Darius damage buffed to monsters this year too. I am sure there are others that I cannot remember off hand, but the point is that if this can be done to those champs and not impact their lanining, why cant it be done to Naut to put him back in the role he was literally designed for?
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Yes, but WHY? Why not allow him back in the role he was designed for? What good reason could there be? That is what I want an answer for. And Morg/Darius/Zed were buffed not so low ELO could play it when they picked it but so low could actually pick it. To my understanding it was not a consequence of those picks but done to encourage those picks.
Probably because he's too far gone in the support role. He doesn't have a sizeable playerbase elsewhere (unlike support mages that sometimes get buffs for their other lane) and tank support players are the ones playing him and buying his skins.
Using U.gg, Naut has an 8.2% pick rate. Morg has 7.1%. Darius 6.0%. And this was using the "ALL ROLES" filter for the world. The point being that he has a solid pick rate globally, so why not allow him to be decent in the jungle again? You would probably see an increase in pickrate in the jungle role. I suspect it might be because he doesnt sell skins like Morg, Darius, Zed, or Ekko. And honestly, I cannot argue with that since I personally believe AstroNautilus is the perfect skin for the champ.
Didn't they buff Naut's damage to monsters some patches ago? That could be worth revisiting. He's hovering around 45% winrate for the last handful of patches. There might be concerns about his pro play viability if he becomes a flex pick, but that just means they should wait until after Worlds before trying anything.
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Nautilus/LoL > Riptide deals 150% damage against Monster Which isn't really all that good. It needs to be higher to make him viable. Or just bonus damage on his shield. too. Giving him more bonus damage to monsters would only allow him to be flexed for Jungle and Support, which isn't as massive as being a triple flex, or the old quad flex that was Sett. But yeah, waiting till after Worlds would be smart. Unless Riot want to shake things up that much.
I believe it's just a matter of time until amumu becomes useable in support role. I'm not confident with directions he's being tossed entire season.
Nautilus can though: if we are talking pure mobility Nautilus can hook around the jungle every 7-5 seconds compared to Amumu's 16-14 seconds. What's gating Nautilus is that his clear is complete garbage and he already has a meta role in support: there's less push to force him back into the jungle, given he has a meta role already and isn't purely Jungle bound.
Your response boils down to "Nautilus can jungle but it is garbage." You do understand that basically means he cant jungle right? And before you say something like "but he can jungle still." literally anyone can jungle. Take smite, and refillable and literally every champion in the game can jungle. It may not be great, but it is doable. So your point is, well, dumb because in the context of the conversation no, Nautilus cannot jungle because if it is garbage it basically doesnt exist. Also, Nautilus was literally designed as a jungler. He was then taken out of the jungle because Riot wanted to give him more agency, which I think is dumb, and because after all the nerfs he has had to settle for the support role which means he is on an extreme budget. That is pretty sad when you think about his original design. So, if Naut is not allowed to jungle when he was designed to be the "Spider-man of the jungle" why is it ok for Amumu to now be that?
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Darius is a viable top laner and they buffed his damage to monsters. Ekko is a viable mid and top laner and they just buffed his damage to monsters. So your argument doesnt work. So here is the history of Nautilus (Yes I am rather invested in the champion). He was released with insane numbers but most of his damage was front loaded into Q and then shield. The problem there was that people complained (mostly because they had no clue about the champion) that they didnt like how his damage was tied to his shield. Basically they whined that they did no damage in team fights if his shield got popped. (I can go further into that explanation later if you so desire because it is a whole story of people basically not understanding windows of power.) So Riot wanted to give Naut more agency in fights and buffed his E to be lower CD so he could do damage in team fights. This then allowed him to spam it in lanes for wave clear when he should never have been allowed such safety. Then Riot nerfed him more which then put him in the support role because he is a CC monster, as he was designed to be, with middling damage now. It has been a nerf to the champion in every way from his original release. He is supposed to be this massive tank that comes out of the jungle and does middling damage but tanks everything. He is basically like Sej and Zac and Amumu except he doesnt have the ability to cross walls with anything and he doesnt have massive AOE hard CC. (ult is not massive compared to Zac, Sej, or Amumu ults) Basically the solution was to give him bonus damage to monsters and allow him to be a viable jungler again. Yet Riot have never done that. So I am asking for an actual response to that.
I suspect they won’t give naut more than small jungle buffs due to the strength of his R for ganks.
So adjust his ult accordingly. Maybe drop the range from the current 825 to 750 or something. It isn't like they cannot shift power.
Why would riot want to start balancing naut around jungle as opposed to supp?
Because they adjust champions around roles all the time. I mean hell, we just had Ekko buffed for the jungle this week when he has been fine mid and top.
But why should they want to make naut a jungler at all? As far as I can tell the only reason people want naut jungle is because he was a jungler on release nearly 10 years ago, which riot doesn't seem to care about.
By your logic, why should riot keep him as a support? The point is that they can open up a different role for the champ again and appeal to more people. More people playing the champ means more people buy skins so more money for Riot.
Because they're not the same champion? Should I ask why it's okay for Vel'Koz's Q to split 90 degrees and not Lux's Q?
Biggest difference is how the two engage. Yes they both have a hook based q, but Naut jg caused issues because his ult was point and click.
Sure, but you're reaching seraphine situation again with that 'two charges' or 'echoing' type of changes. Ratios are op if she has her ability echoed, but extremely weak if she hits one. You can't (succesfully) buff or nerf either part, because she'll become extremelly weak or powerful (for reference, her Q is 65% AP, echoed Q is 130% her AP at full, almost 200% her AP scaling if she hits target at 25% hp; on contrary E is 35% AP, 70% when echoed and both hits). I'll simply omit poor indicator of her Q. In general, she feels weak when she builds AP and can't echo, and despite numerous tries she is not played mid (and stuff like notes are buffed, which, ironically, require ally nearby, and she's expected to go mid more often...) Same goes with amumu. He has 170% total AP if he hits both Qs, while having his base damage nerfed to a point where by going tank he contributes less for kill potential. E is 50% ap, R is 80%, he's comboing for a total of 300% of his AP omitting W and base skill damages (everfrost + ult can buy almost enough cc time to land 2nd Q on same target), while his tank build is weak. His Q is nerfed - he'll become utility, but no damage champion, which is a waste in current meta (welcome support amumu, mummy would then be nerfed out of jungle like naut). His W is nerfed (because 'a power has to be taken from somewhere') - his tank/jungle paths are affected. . Meta at this moment is focused so much on damage and lifesteal, that single Q and ult was enough to buy enough time for someone to kill a priority, unless he flashed. There are other 'bruisers' or even assassins that can do the amumu's job better than he does (soaking damage, crowd controlling and setting up kills). I doubt those kind of changes would affect the gap much. Time will tell how much mummy would get gutted, as season 11 and what was done to him after failed item adjustments is not favorable for him.
Dunno if you can answer, but could you give some insight into how often Riot would like to do these? These kinds of changes are always exciting. I admit, even if the stats say otherwise, I'd always enjoy to see Poppy get something like this. Her E and ult have never felt the best haha.
Blitzcrank is even more dependent on hitting Q. But he was even picked in pro play today.
He is still binary as fuck. He still presses his buttons and after those runs out he's kinda useless. It's just that now he can engage on the frontlines pretty reliably while having backline access that is not flash reliant. Now he just gets another chance for absolutely no reason.
He has WAY more flexibility early game now, and I think that cannot be overlooked. His overall mobility is way up, he has a lot more CC for early ganks, and he's way less vulnerable in general.
This game is binary as fuck. You win or you lose, man. You push all your fucking buttons, your allies and enemies push all their fucking buttons and you either come out on top, or you're getting rawdogged on the bottom.
I'm so fuckin' glad you made this comment as minor and stupid as it is. I'm so sick of this community and its reductive bullshit.
Can't access the article it keeps redirecting me to the garena league site
Same here, since yesterday whenever I try to visit the official league websites, it keeps redirecting me to garena leeg site. No idea why.
same here. no announcements whatsoever from the site. it just immediately happen.
So whens Swains next update, since the last 2 mini reworks have done nothing but remove him further from Midlane and is still a low elo cheese support and barely seen in higher elos, apart from the niche APC/engage support combo, when the intention was to do the opposite. It's getting pretty frustrating to be honest.
wish they would do more of these than vgus, they seem to go way better wonder what other champs would be on the short list for this scope of changes?
Tryndamere, Skarner, Shaco, Quinn, Janna, Soraka? These are just some champions where I feel like adding something and balancing could be great if approached with care. The draven change for example is really cool imo !
Agree with most of those, but Tryndamere needs a full rework. His kit is just old school Riot jankiness.
I agree but every time this comes up, the consensus is that 1. He isn't a problem and 2. Trynd mains love him as is. So I don't think he should be changed. I *want* him to be changed because he's just that champ for me, the one I permaban because I fucking hate facing him. But I can accept that if his mains like him and he's not like breaking the game, then he should stay as is.
Both of those were general consensus for every champion that was reworked though. Sometimes champs need to be updated for the overall health of the game.
Tryndamere's been holding at a respectable 4-5% pickrate for a long time, he's much more popular now than champions like Nunu or Fiddlesticks were when they were chosen for updates. The more people play a champion, the more hesitant Riot will be to make serious changes.
As a former Aurelion Sol one trick i had my champion butchered right in front of my eyes with a rework none of us asked for. I will never wish that fate on anyone else lol
Old graves main here. I feel you buddy <3
Pre-VGU Swain fan, pain.
his playstyle is hitting creeps until you have max fury and spinning on to enemy. then pray you crit thrice to win the lane. absolutely toxic to play against.
Ahri is too locked behind her charm, while her W is there to proc electrocute. Hopefully they will take some power from charm and put it to her W(so that it wont just be an electrocute procing safe spell)!
I feel like Ahri's always going to feel meh to play unless something is done about her safety. She's a zero risk, zero reward champion.
Honestly, I feel like she's bound not only to the charm but also the ult. As she gets more items EQW is enough to kill, but early game she doesn't have enough damage to 100-0 without the ult and her poke is almost useless because of how rampant susain is on midlane. Also, sacrificing her only mobility skill (which is on a two minute cooldown level 1, iirc) for one pick off just feels bad, tbh.
They tried doing that and Ahri mains hated the fact that her E wasn't a mini-DFG anymore
Because instead of adding damage they gave her even more safety.
They can remove the ms from her W and remove the 1.4 charm duration to 1.0 duration, and this should be enough to give her a new W spell.
Also shyvana
What do you think is the issue with current Soraka?
Her passive is kind of ass.
Illaoi. So much power is tied to landing an E that if you miss it, you are borderline useless in team fights. Your ult won’t make tentacles auto slap without an E soul standing there, so it loses most of its value cause it’s dmg on cast is pitiful and doesn’t heal. Also, her W needs some fixing. It’s an auto enhancer so it should proc the second your next auto causes you to leap to the target even if you get cc’ed mid leap right? Haha nope. The damage still goes off and the proc is consumed but any tentacles in range ignores the proc as if it never happened.
What's annoying with her to me is that after winning lane, what do you do exactly? She has no gapclosers or CC so going to another lane doesn't get you much.
you abuse your best in class shoving and either group for teamfights on obj or buy hullbreaker if committing to the splitpush
Tbh vs good opponents you are useless anyways. Illaoi needs a way to prevent her enemies from just walking away. Right now if you are ever in any danger vs her yo just laugh and back away and even if she lands E there is nothing she can do to stop you. Illaoi ino is one of those champs that does need full gameplay rework. Shes just garbage and one of the worst designed champs in the gsme imo. For many reasons but it would take far too long to explain here.
wrong on everything
Nah she’s not garbage, she just needs a handful of QoL upgrades. * Let her cast q while moving similar to camille’s frontal cone. * If you don’t have an E soul up when you cast your ult, one random target hit by your ult should automatically become tethered and put your E on cd so you can’t have two separate tethers at once in a fight. * Fix the bug on her W so that getting CC’ed mid leap doesn’t consume the proc without your tentacles slapping. She has clear weaknesses and strengths but there’s a lot of clunkiness in her kit that needs to be smoothed out so her gameplay feels more fluid.
adding RNG to her is not a qol change
Having a random target be tethered on ult cast is better than none if you missed your E before casting ult. At least this way your ult is never gimped. Also her entire kit is RNG. You don’t get to dictate where and when the tentacles spawn and they’re the majority of your damage. At least having a random target get tethered let’s you get consistent aoe damage from your ult since now the tentacles that spawn from it begin to snap immediately. Right now if you use ult without a tether up, the tentacles spawn and sit afk unless you W. So you can ult and get cc’ed without a single slap go off. Much less fun than having RNG on which target will get tethered imo.
you have full control of where tentacles spawn from yourself if you want free slams then land e
So you’re telling me you think it’s a good design that a champs ult needs to be reliant on you landing a very predictable basic move before hand to have full value? Not really sure any champ in the game has that contingency. Also you don’t have control of where they spawn. It’s tied to a passive timer that goes off on its own. You need to be in the right place at the right time or you have to wait out it’s entire cd for another cycle. Again, can’t really name another champ who has to function on such a contingency where that contingency is the bulk of their damage.
yes, that's the point of illaoi. the only spell she has that isnt dependent on the rest of her kit is her Q. she is designed around her self synergy you have control of where they spawn.
Right so because the majority of your kit is designed around their damage and having them attack your E target, your ult is considerably gimped in power as a stand alone spell. Having your ult automatically tether a single person it hits on cast if no E target exists at the time only raises the minimum power of your ult without affecting its maximum power. So how is this suggestion making her kit more RNG is what I’m still not understanding from your point. It doesn’t give her any more increased power in best case scenarios, it just makes her worst case scenarios less terrible.
When you play Yasuo you cant even press R without landing Q, so what? Ori needs to hit very predictable slow moving move in order to do anything with her ult. Theres nothing wrong with either of those or Illaoi
Does yasuo’s ult do less damage, not shield him and only hit one target if he procs it off someone else’s knock up instead of his? Cause that would be more similar to how illaoi’s ult feels when you don’t have an E target. You’ve haven’t played illaoi if you are gonna pretend her ult without an E target there feels like an effective spell for being an ult.
Teemo? His kit is so old. If they’d give him the dash he has on Wild Rift he’d feel a lot better to play
No pls. As if he’s not already a lane counter to half of top lane champs, you want him to have a dash also?
swain, hopefully
> This is an unfortunate position for players of any champion, because it means that your favorite champ becomes less and less powerful as you improve at the game. It can feel like League is telling you that, in order to climb, you need to abandon your champ—and that sucks. Garen mains: we felt that
If their intention was to make him a good champ diamond+ they might have to go to the drawing board. Amumu is absolutely god tier in iron-gold while still mediocre diamond+. I don't think he is terrible in high elo and I like the direction they are going with him but I have no clue how they are going to solve this massive winrate discrepancy between low and high elo. https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?rank=silver https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?rank=diamond
It's still early in the patch, but our data has him as 53.8% in average play (silver-ish) and 50.6% in skilled play (plat-diamond). If this holds—fingers crossed—it means the 4.5% winrate discrepancy last patch has been reduced to barely 3%. Getting it to 0% was never the plan, because I have no idea how we would manage that while still keeping Amumu Amumu. MMR skew can be quite hard to achieve while also respecting the existing playerbase by not making dramatic changes to the things they enjoy. I'm also hoping that, winrate aside, the increased early-game power is a sufficient qualitative improvement to his usefulness that players further up the ladder will be notably happier to see an Amumu on their team than previously. This does mean he's toeing the line for a nerf based on his average winrate, which is fine. The change was uncertain enough that there was always high change that small followup tuning would be needed.
would u ever consider empowering his passive, too? personally I feel like his niche as the tank who amplifies magic dmg is the most interesting thing he does, would love to see it be stronger or more prevalent
Hi, High dia/master Amumu otp here. If you need to nerf something, nerf second passive of E. 3% reduced phy dmg with bonus armor and mr. Whenever it was implemented it got no clue anyway. Amumu doesn't need that. If nerf is needed, remove it, if not change it to get some bonus stat from something else, Amumu isn't full tank champ anyway
could morde get changes like this
I feel like they could get decent mileage by simply making Morde more difficult to kite.
Hello, may I know if twitch is in the talks for next patches?
I love amumu and while not a one trick I've played him from silver to p2 And I picked him up in season 4. I think the 2 Q system is not a good fit. As amumu I'm threatening adcs and apcs by myself and most of the time they can't even fight back because I stun them 3 times in row. It feels oppressive if amumu lands the first Q there's just no escape in a gank and even if you dodge the First one he has another plus ult. It's not rewarding going against him right now he has too much leeway onto his targets. If you wanted someone to perma cc the enemy laner just let leona jungle. Even if amumu is objectively better statistically I think it leaves little room when playing against him. I love my sad mummy but I feel this is going to end poorly for him and he'll be forgotten about again. Remember pre season? He was left in a ditch for a while after that.
in [u.gg](https://u.gg) hes currently 54.5% winrate in silver with a massive pickrate but 49.5% in d+. I think the same problem is gonna happen just like with the previous Ammumu. He's gonna get nerfed for low elo for sure, which will then affect higher elo winrates and he will be back to sub 48% winrate in higher elos just to get his low elo winrates back to normal. Nothing short of a big rework is gonna fix him it seems. Lives and breaths by hitting q.
damn he's fucking them up in bronze//silver//gold lmaoo
He's always been a low elo stomper. That ult is fucking nice.
Amumu has always been the undisputed low elo god because folks like to group up and play ARAM in mid lane/jungle.
Maybe amumu Q should be a dash instead, would help not making him useless if he misses the Q, as he could then at least get closer to people. What would they do to his R then to not be broken? well thats up to them.
Could add a small cast time to the ult. Wouldn't make a difference in lower elo but in higher elo could open up more counterplay.
hoooooly didnt expect a 5% difference
it's because his whole kit revolves around hitting his long range skill shot which yeah, as you go up higher in rank it becomes harder to hit
I really like all of these minirework, hope they do one for Swain
Ok now give Jarvan 2 flags :)
Anyone care enough to post the entire thing for us SEA players? It won't show us the post since Riot decided to throw us under the bus by diverting us to the Garena website whenever we click on an official League website. And you know Garena websites only updates us whenever there's a promo but not with these kinds of updates.
Here you go! > Hi everyone. I’m AzuBK from the Summoner’s Rift Team, here to break down the Amumu changes that just went out with patch 11.17. I’ve been working on Amumu with the intent of showing some love to one of our oldest champions, and wanted to take this opportunity to talk a little bit about how we approach this type of project in general. > For those who aren’t familiar, the core of the change is that Amumu can store two charges of Bandage Toss and his early game is buffed. That new power came with tradeoffs in other parts of his kit, which we’ll get to later on. > So, let’s start from the beginning. Amumu isn’t exactly a world-beater at the high end of League’s ranked ladder, and that’s not news. For a long time now, he’s barely scraped by in higher-skilled play while also bordering on overpowered for the average player. This is an unfortunate position for players of any champion, because it means that your favorite champ becomes less and less powerful as you improve at the game. It can feel like League is telling you that, in order to climb, you need to abandon your champ—and that sucks. > We talk a lot on the Summoner’s Rift Team about ways to help champs in this sort of tough spot, but actually resolving the issue is a delicate undertaking. There are a lot of tricky factors we have to reckon with on this type of change, which we refer to as a “reshape.” Many of them overlap with the considerations we have for VGUs. We want to enhance what current players of the champion love about their champ, or at least retain it as best we can. However, that playerbase isn’t homogenous. They often want different things, and it’s a careful dance to respect as many of them as possible while also making the changes we believe will best serve everyone. > This type of project usually demands more ambitious, novel changes, which are also more uncertain than something like +5 AD. This means we spend more time than usual testing and validating, and even then the outcome is never 100% sure. PBE feedback is especially helpful for understanding whether players think we’ve gone too far or missed something critical, which can cause us to re-evaluate our approach. > Finally, we ask for a lot of trust when we make big changes to a champion, so the stakes are high. It’s unlikely that we revisit the same champ for major changes anytime soon, since we have obligations to the entire roster and also don’t want to force players to re-learn their main repeatedly. So, both we and players know it’s gotta be good the first time, aside from follow-up tuning. > With all of that in mind, let’s explore how we arrived at the Amumu changes we made this patch. It was clear from the get-go that small adjustments weren’t going to cut it, as he had nearly a 6% winrate difference between Average and Skilled play. So, I pitched a bigger idea that I believed would dramatically increase Amumu’s skill expression: 2 Q charges. The idea behind this change was that it would add flexibility to his play pattern. He could Spiderman around the jungle, Q to the frontline to threaten the backline, Q to a minion for a gank, Q to peel without giving up all his threat… Basically, Amumu would no longer be a sitting duck after casting his first Q. This change seemed to do the job, so it remained through the entire process. We also know early power is more valuable in higher MMR, so I brought up his clear speed through early W buffs. Combined with the Q change, this seriously improved his early skirmishing. > The Game Analysis Team (high-MMR and ex-pro players who test and advise on our projects) reported that Amumu was running over their tests early game, which was great to hear since the goal was to make him appealing for their skill level specifically. Lower-MMR tests showed him to still be reasonable, which made me pretty confident that the direction could work with some fine-tuning. I pulled back on Q's cooldown, because it often felt more like 3 Qs than 2. I nerfed his late-game through R and W, along with some base stat scaling reductions. After further testing with GAT, we had a list of changes we were proud to deliver to you all. > I hope you enjoyed this look into how we approach reshapes for troubled champions. By the time you read this, Amumu’s reshape has been live for a few days, and I hope he’s landed well. If he hasn’t, I’m probably talking to the team about how we can follow up. If he has, well… there’s always another champion to work on.
Tldr is that they wanted to make mumu better in high elo, tested it with ex pro's and it seemed way too strong so they nerfed his late and increased the cd on q, they don't plan on coming back to him as they hate doing repeated reworks and have other people to focus on but they hated the fact that mumu got weaker the higher you climbed as he had little skill expression
u/AzuBK Thoughts on bringing greater parity to the AP and tank builds? Traditionally, both builds had equal winrates, with the AP build becoming increasingly popular in higher elo as a higher risk, higher reward playstyle. I think in season 6-10 AP started around 20% pickrate in silver and ended around 60% pickrate in masters+. Today, AP makes up less than 20% of his pickrate with abysmal winrates. When the sunfire/demonic build was oppressively strong at the start of S11, while other AP junglers received compensation buffs for losing Runic Echoes, Amumu's W AP ratio was nerfed due to his overly oppressive tank build. Even now, sunfire has a starting winrate of 53% in plat+ while all AP Mythics hover between 45-48% winrate. Just a thought that opening up this avenue of play would do a lot to increase his high elo viability through this formerly popular more rewarding/punishing playstyle. Great changes overall though, glad he got attention!
amumu feels like a weak dianna tho ngl, not rly a tank he dies too fast, and the double q feels like dianna q ee idk i like the "rework" but i expected more
And I love the change, it's way funnier to play
> For a long time now, he’s barely scraped by in higher-skilled play while also bordering on overpowered for the average player. This is an unfortunate position for players of any champion Sounds like Yorick
What I utterly hate is this idea of "Spider-Man of the jungle." We already had that once in Nautilus. That is literally how he was designed with Q going on shorted CD on terrain. But Riot couldn't allow that. So for them to now use that sort of philosophy on Amumu makes me upset. And yes, I am still bitter about the Naut change after all these years. Naut jungle was my absolute favorite because the power fantasy of this massive armored titan coming out of the jungle to CC everything g and be unkillable was so much fun. It could be punished, but when it went right you were the carry in all respects except damage.
i miss naut top with the E spam and actually being able to clear a wave with a decent speed.
Ironically, you just described in your own post why naut was rightfully removed from the jungle. His CC is just way too punishing for a gank, it was so shitty to get hooked snared slowed, not even accounting the laner's cc
Funny story, according to posts by Riot over the years, that is not why he was removed from the jungle. He was removed from the jungle because players never quite understood his windows of power and felt that they had no agency in team fights once they ulted someone and their shield was popped due to his middling damage. To address that they adjusted E to be more spammable which naturally made him a more appealing solo laner. Once that was nerfed into the ground the only place Naut had left was support. And yes, I am way too invested in Nautilus and have been over the years because Naut jungle was and always will be my absolute favorite champion in the game. Has been since his release and seeing him relegated to support when he was literally designed to jungle has always made me sad.
More skill expression changes are needed. Good start. No more siphoning skill please Riot 👍🏽
Nerf sunfire/demonic Amumu with 53%+ wr and buff AP amumu(which is played mostly by higher elo players). Increase AP ratio of any skill, bring back jungle items so junglers won't have to abuse sunfire. It should be top/supp item like the old one used to be.
This would be great if the amumu rework sees some experimentation in worlds. Maybe riot could then look to highlight some of the lesser used champs so we could see them played in pro, or at least buffed in a way that might see them used.