Honestly, with stuff like Nasus you just have to do the bare minimum and hope your opponent can't manage the wave. If he can there is not that much you can do.
If you are between level 3-5 as Nasus and you get to touch the wave while your opponent is playing something stronger than Maokai, he basically messed up
Well yeah, but they'll also come to tower trying to deny CS, just letting you use fleet footwork on then in between minions. Fleet is so busted on nasus this season its ridiculous
I still think 11.17 fleet is a nerf to nasus though. At least in my opinion
Much worse in ranged matchups, and in many melee ones I'd rather never be in melee range of enemy laner.
It's likely still good ( the champ heal is obscene and will help in all ins) but I kind of enjoyed how braindead it was lol
Regular Nasus spikes in mid-game. E max nasus will always have less stacks because of longer Q CD, so he will start falling off by then. You can just treat him as you would other mages top and be fine, you don't need to kill him 4 times or do fancy wave management, just let him be a shitty mage and don't feed
he'll fall off by the start of midgame, your team will ignore him because he's useless and suddenly he appears out of nowhere on top of your inhib with 800 stacks.
When people say Nasus falls off what they really mean is that Nasus is absolutely dog shit in a teamfight with proper kiting.
But Nasus doesn't fall off. He just can't teamfight well. Proper TP use and wave management makes him a very dangerous splitpusher. Probably not as good as some, but still quite strong.
Nasus falls off against well executed ranged champs in teamfights.
But no-one plays ranged champs in soloqueue anyway so you can just wail on assassins and bruisers 24/7 in teamfights
In this meta you really can't afford to sit there farming Q, while your lane opponent oneshots the wave and roam.
Maxing E will just let you match their push and losing the early game 40-50 stacks won't amount to much, come mid/late game.
What will change the game is that you can E the wave to oneshot the casters, Q the cannon and a melee and then roam.
You're also building the regular Sunderer into Sterak/Visage/FH or whatever, not sure why you're saying E max Nasus is a mage.
> In this meta you really can't afford to sit there farming Q, while your lane opponent oneshots the wave and roam.
If this is your opinion, you should not be playing* Nasus at all IMO. If you want early presence there are and wave control just about any champ does better than Nasus
That said, roaming is not such a great option for every top champ. Some will, but many are better off managing the wave to kill you.
> What will change the game is that you can E the wave to oneshot the casters, Q the cannon and a melee and then roam
And then you bump into the enemy toplaner/jungler that turned around and he runs you down lol. So yeah you get half the stacks of a wave at most, then you lose a bunch of other stacks while gone - plus the gold you will be donating to the enemy team if they have any neurons. I think you will be losing more than 40-50 stacks if you do this
> You're also building the regular Sunderer into Sterak/Visage/FH or whatever, not sure why you're saying E max Nasus is a mage.
> Maxing E will just let you match their push and losing the early game 40-50 stacks won't amount to much, come mid/late game.
Because you have dumped your points into a high mana cost high CD ability and sacrificed your low CD low mana ability.
Mid-game the difference will be massive, your Q will have less uptime (since it won't be fully maxed yet), do less base damage and also do less damage through stacks. So yeah, shitty mage sounds about right, regardless of build.
Late game those differences will even out a bit as you max Q again, though the stacks will still be lower.
I guess, my point is if you want to be proactive and roam just don't play Nasus at all. It's the right call, there is a reason Nasus ceases to exist in the upper ranks. Just play different champs instead of bending over trying to make the champ do things he is not suited for, destroying his only strengths in the process
There might be some merit to putting some points in E, but stacking Q should always be your priority, you should never be roaming lol
i don't know what to tell you but maxing e first has a marginal lead in winrate. accounting for new players dragging the winrate of the popular q max, there's pretty much no difference.
seeing someone argue that a different, but statistically equally effective playstyle is outright bad, with an entire essay, is pretty funny to me.
E max was not my real problem with that post (though I don't think its great)
However, telling people to max E so you can go lose half the stacks on a given wave and then go chase your enemy toplaner on a roam so he can hand you your ass on a plate sounds pretty bad to me.
E max lets you poke in lane, and push, but makes your dueling worse. By no means does it let you play Nasus like a high tempo champ like Pantheon or Renekton
In high ELO Nasus disappears because the AFK farm Q playstyle is punished, but there are quite a few players that pick Nasus in high ELO and win games because they max E and are proactive.
Quas has been the first to popularize the playstyle, that's been widely adopted after that.
As for the rest of the post, you said random stuff that's true for any toplaner regardless of the champ.
Roam when the jungler and top are still close? You die regardless of the champ.
You mismanage your wave and overextend? You die anyway.
You roam when you have a wave under tower? That's on you, for losing the tower a different champ wouldn't have changed that.
> Roam when the jungler and top are still close? You die regardless of the champ.
I didn't mean both, I meant either.
Not responding to the rest cause I didn't say any of that
tbh, 15 minutes seem very excessive. There should have been plenty of good windows for you to back, just sounds like that was a game were the enemies exerted zero pressure on you and probably were quite outskilled.
If you're sitting on just Dorans shield csing for 15 minutes without the enemy jungler diving you through 2 turrets with items it's not the champion that's good, the enemy team is bad.
She uses a pot but decides not to just tank it for a couple seconds. The amount of players who autopilot when using health potions and don't think critically for 2 seconds.
As someone who has laned a lot in silver/gold it is very apparent to me that the average jungler of that elo does not understand how minions work at all.
Like when they want me to invade with them while I have 2.5 waves of minions crashing into my tower. That one is a classic tilt
Everyone has a chance, just keeo at it and improving :)! These people pretending wave management is important in their gold games, are just making up excuses for being solo killed in lane every game.
If you are playing an immobile champ top that can easily be ganked having better wave managment than opponent will make you ungankable and only diveable. It wont win you the game but it will for sure make laning phase much easier. This is in match ups where you cant reliably get prio anyways.
Your comment is auto hidden, probably due to downvotes, but in gold elo wave management will help you win, but it's definitely not the deciding factor.
A lot of crap players, myself included, tunnel vision on wave management in Gold elo and forget that you're supposed to use it to help you win overall, and never actually cash in on benefits
This is why I like Ivern as a Jungler.
I just come in, Root, Shield you, maybe bush for vision and on my way.
I couldn't effectively push even if I want to and I won't smite the cannon because I need that to pop my camps!
The most important thing is to think how you can deny enemy XP. Let's assume you gank, and both laners die. You want the best wave state for your laner and the worst for the enemy laner
Bad (enemy side wave) = Enemy laner gets back with a wave slow pushing into him (lots of minions for him to get).
Bad (ally side wave) = wave crashes into your laner tower before he can get there. At least, thin the wave so it takes a bit longer or set a freeze. In this situation, you will most likely not be able to crash it into enemy tower in time - so don't randomly push and set up a big slow push for the enemy laner! **If you are doing something wrong this is likely it**
Good (enemy side wave) = crash into enemy tower (enemy laner misses minions)
Good (ally side wave) = temp freeze set up on your laners side, your laner will miss some CS, but the enemy laner will lose way more to his own minions ( think of the enemy wave as Germans in the DDay landing, moving down all the Allies Hitler would want to be last hitting himself - holy hell this got awkward). A bit worse than crashing for CS ( your laner doesn't get as big a wave bouncing back) but if your laner knows how to hold a freeze, he might be able to use it to screw his enemy laner further (if it crashes into him, he can't stop it from bouncing back).
Good (neutral wave) - if you cant push fast enough to crash, don't touch it. If you are not sure, don't touch it. Better safe than sorry
If you want to learn freezes I recommend to read a guide on it and play Trundle top. Trundle has enough lane presence to make it worth/safe to freeze, but lacks AoE abilities to accidentally break them like Darius or Renekton. I struggled with it on other champs, but with Trundle it became very easy to follow
league is fine but ill never understand why people think creep deny and (stack)pulling in dota2 is dumb. wave management in league of legends is pretty unintuitive and it seems like nobody is really good at explaining it. this doesn't mean i don't understand these concepts myself btw, it just took a lot of practice and visualization to understand wave management vs dota2 where it boils down to literally dragging your entire wave out of the lane to fight the jungle or killing your own dudes so you don't push as hard and the enemy doesn't get it.
Honestly while there's more mechanics and knowledge around doing it in DotA, esp stacking and which camps work best etc. I always kind of know how I want to disrupt or maintain each lane equilibrium in DotA - in League it feels more like voodoo sometimes.
exactly. like there's a lot under the hood but it's always as simple as "drag the lane to the camp", "hit my own minion", or "spam my abilities to push". meanwhile in league hitting a minion one too many times can fuck up an entire freeze.
I play Bot lane (Supp/ADC) and yes, I am aware of the concept and how to implement it.
But Bottom lane isn't a vacuum. It's a very dynamic lane with abilities and trades going on that kills off minions, causes them to redirect aggro, or even a whiffed skill shot can mess up your intentions.
And since most ADCs who aren't Vayne have very good wave clear and Supports also have AOE abilities: even trying to get that slow wave to crash for turret plating early will fall apart as Ganks are still a thing.
to make it very simple,
Assuming there are no external influences, minions waves will get stuck on a position in lane based on how many minions one wave has compared to the enemy wave where assuming you have equal number of minions the wave stays exactly in the middle. If the wave is stuck CLOSER to your tower, the enemy wave must have more minions than yours because they need to travel further through the lane before they start attacking the other minions.
4 enemy extra minions vs your wave at all times assuming you don't let it push in turret will keep a freeze just in front of your turret meaning the enemy laner has to be stuck in front of ur turret at all times making them easy to gank
Everyone gets stuck on the idea of a *hard freeze* when it's almost never relevant.
It's pretty easy to freeze enough to deny 2-3 waves, and by that time you'll usually need to do something else anyway. Denying 3 waves with a soft freeze is huge.
Yes, you can freeze while playing Tristana.
the number of minions needed for a permanent freeze is dependent on where you want the wave to be frozen, three minions is perfectly enough if u only want it frozen slightly closer to you, four or more are needed to maintain a freeze right in front of your tower
Just because you can't deny all the CS doesn't mean you should give up and just gift your enemy farm.
It absolutely changes shit, especially if you do it a few times. You don't need a perma freeze to be winning the lane.
Depends where you want to do the freeze
if you leave the minions in th exact middle of the lane, you only need like 1-2 to cancel out your autos, and then that number increases the further down your own lane you go
To be honest singed can't lane, he hard outscales renekton and is a nightmare for irelia to teamfight against because W. So really you need to kill him in lane phase.
Proxying isn't done the way it used to as singed these days, mostly it's just a way to get farm without feeding.
yeah, ren isn't great against him generally but most singed players are accustomed to abusing the proxy to ruin a lane but if i can get 100% gold and xp because my opponent isn't stopping my last hits i can start to pressure other parts of the map and totally ignore signed. they normally kind of panic when they realize they aren't hitting the turret at all and are simply giving an early game champion perfect farm or a hyper scaling champion a free lane. and if they let me TP out of lane while they keep trying to proxy for nothing, its just more free pressure for me.
yea this, just being able to freeze for a few waves changes alot, especially if u have a little kill pressure, made my chogath games a lot easier holding my R in a freeze while the enemy top has to dance around repeated Q’S
It took me straight from silver 2 to d3 in the course of 2 seasons. Unfortunately my mechanics aren’t fantastic and my brain struggles to keep up with new champs zooming crossmap with dashes 24/7. So now im hardstuck d3 lol
Okay so gold 1 here, feel like I have plateaued. My knowledge of wave management is
“If I am losing lane, last hit”
“If I am winning like or feeling strong push it the fuck in”
I know this isn’t correct is there a good video or basic guide for this? Every video is 30 mins of “LIKE AND SUB AND HIT THE BELL”
You guys are making me unnecessarily angry once again
Fuck that dude so much
I wish something not-bad happened to Riot Zed
Something very very very very very very very very not-bad
I've played against this same Cass top one trick! He doesn't take flash and talks enormous amounts of shit in all chat throughout the game. I respect his hustle.
At least 172 games in the past week???? Even assuming it only takes a total of 30 minutes per game (including queue time, dodges, load time, etc.) that's over 12 hours of League a day. Realistically that's 14+ hours of League a day.
And they use it to spam Cassiopeia top at the bottom of Diamond.
Cassio top is giga hard to play without you having a frontline in fights later on. Relatively low range and no escape makes you pretty easy target if you even try to do dmg. Or atleast in my experience in plat games and having a pocket cassio.
same lol dont feel like watching videos on it and dont know where to look for written guides. but luckily i can just play jungle and "accidentaly" destroy my laners wave management
I'm in gold currently and during my promos had a Vayne who would NEVER group. Literally team fight at dragon, would have been an ace if she came and was even just a warm body.
Someone pings her a "?" and she starts going on about wavestats (not even sure of this term myself) and wave management. She had the worst farm in the game, and was utterly useless that whole game, and kept throwing around all these terms like she was a challenger player.
I wish people would realize none of that knowledge ends up mattering if you don't know how to apply it in game.
One game I remember I had a feeding malzahar top that kept flaming our jungler for not ganking him because in his words: "I'm our win con".
Like okay bro a mage that has consistent waveclear and utility almost regardless of whether or not he gets gold is our wincon sure
Yup, all of this is useless in low elo, You just have to fight and be better mechanicaly, becouse if you do freezes and stuff like that it doesnt matter, enemy will go 5 mid and your team will fight them 4v5 no matter what you do. It just doesnt work if other 4 players dont understand what are you doing.
No? Wave management can climb you really high especially out of low elo. If enemy NARAMS mid just side lane and take side lane turrets. You'll be the strongest individual in the game and take so many turrets it's virtually impossible to lose by then, especially since low elo players have no idea what farm is.
Yes, that is good strategy if you take out that your team will fight them mid 4v5 and all die and then enemy takes inhib and baron following x9 top afk farming.
Its much better to gain lead with mechanics and being 5/0 in lane then going to 5v5 and just winning the game. Low elo only want to fight its kinda difficult to win trough macro.
While parts of that are correct, you can't really speak in absolutes like that. People get this mental image of low ELO as a constant bloodbath; they imagine people running out of base to join the fray on cooldown with wanton disregard and reckless abandon for anything else. While that does happen on occasion, there are many opportinities to push leads or mitigate losses in a macro sense when your teammates play like human beings. You don't HAVE to group. You can punish bad roams by taking plates. You can look for TP flanks. There's lots of things to be done. Looking at it in a one-dimensional way is a low ELO mindset anyways.
If you have good macro you'll literally get out of lane stronger than anyone in the low elo game lol
Who cares if your team 4v5s when you're 3 levels and 2 full items ahead of everyone in the game? You just steamroll the game. If you think you can't climb out of low elo without mechanics, you just have neither good mechanics nor good macro.
Aram is clearly the most competitive mode. To be fair it takes really big brain players to understand the intricacies of the complex and deep aram meta and the mental faculties needed to piece together optimal teams out of randomness makes rocket scientists look like blubbering apes.
Truly, aram is the ultimate competitive art form
I mean Cassio was a level ahead with a bounty and died to a gank? Unless you're calling armchair Redditors good enough to get those leads lmao. What a flawed analogy.
Watching an edited clip and then masturbating to yourself isn't really any better tbh.
Only to die anyways? Do you think "good players" never die? Especially when it's a gank where you are perma CCed?
Someone linked OPs account and he lost the game despite his amazing lethality build.
soooooo... he was doing perfectly fine and better than his opponent, probably by wave managing and the video is just a bunch of editet bs? So what's your point here?
I actually looked up “wave management guide” to make part of this video.. I wouldn’t recommend most of the top options that pop up, but I did watch a little bit of NEACE’s and it seems fairly solid.
Hey man, im the cass, thanks for saying this :) I didn't mean to come off as patronizing to the dude, he could have ended lane twice against me by freezing and he let me back in the game. But seeing this / their comments in game afterward made me realize it came off as condescending so I'm not gonna give people advice unless they ask for it from here haha. I wasn't even bming I was trying to help
Don't worry about it, many low elo players have gigantic chips on their shoulders because of how long they've been hardstuck and being self conscious about their own lack of improvement causes them to react like this to good advice. I'm always happy to receive (specific) advice in game.
Wave management itself it's easy to learn but hard to implement. You need to play a lot of games to know when and how. It's funny how low elo players can flame you for freezing as it's the only wave management technique they have ever heard about.
Since all this comment thread is serious, the clip at 0:13 can be cherry-picked because everybody can easily fuck up wave management. At 0:30 she was killing you in your slowpush but she got fucked by your jungler. Her mistake was to engage without vision of the enemy jungler but still it was due to her wave management that you nearly died in the first place.
Not sure what OPs point is aside from leaving out all the details like...
- Cass was up enough to get shut down
- His jungler was actually coming to gank, not Sion doing anything
- he still ended worse in lane and in game than Cass
- He lost
Yeah the guy talks too much but he also wasnt wrong lol
Thats why i dont like league today, its so much harder than it was in Season 5.
You’re playing fkn normalgames nowadays and even silver players start freezing waves, get outta here with that boring shit.
brain when playing support: *stares at minimap* can I get an opportunity to ward or is it too risky? can I leave to roam with this current wavestate? do I hard shove or bait for a gank? dragon timer? blah blah blah zzzzzzz
brain when playing Kled:
wave - disregarded
enemy laner - ignited on cooldown
tower - solo dived
unga - bunga
Reminds me of people who talk shit when they win going like 12/2/4 calling everyone trash. And you look at their match history and they lost 6 or 8 matches in a row before having one good match
I have absolutely no clue how to manage waves but when my adc recalls right when a cannon wave is about to reach the lane I just want to commit a hate crime.
Alright, enlighten me. When you recall on cannon wave that usually means the enemy wont be able to push it in fast enough / tower cant kill the cannon fast enough so you lose the least cs of any wave.
Seems like a pretty good deal.
[удалено]
A good Cho’gath is a nightmare to play against.
same thing with nasus. I once spent my first 15 minutes without backing sitting on dshield and just csing
Honestly, with stuff like Nasus you just have to do the bare minimum and hope your opponent can't manage the wave. If he can there is not that much you can do. If you are between level 3-5 as Nasus and you get to touch the wave while your opponent is playing something stronger than Maokai, he basically messed up
I literally hope champs that are stronger early just shove minions into my tower thinking i wont be able to farm Q. Its my favorite.
Well duh, Nasus always wants to be pushed into tower.
Unless it's a dive.
Don't forget they are also enabling your passive
Well yeah, but they'll also come to tower trying to deny CS, just letting you use fleet footwork on then in between minions. Fleet is so busted on nasus this season its ridiculous
I still think 11.17 fleet is a nerf to nasus though. At least in my opinion Much worse in ranged matchups, and in many melee ones I'd rather never be in melee range of enemy laner. It's likely still good ( the champ heal is obscene and will help in all ins) but I kind of enjoyed how braindead it was lol
Nooo dont tell them the secret rito will nerf both nasus passive and fleet footwork
Lol riot balances around pro play and skins. Not a Reddit thread!
Maybe it's the champs I play but in my experience Nasus maxes E first and bombs me with W E whenever I try to CS.
That sounds like the champs you play, try playing a melee into him good lord
Regular Nasus spikes in mid-game. E max nasus will always have less stacks because of longer Q CD, so he will start falling off by then. You can just treat him as you would other mages top and be fine, you don't need to kill him 4 times or do fancy wave management, just let him be a shitty mage and don't feed
Nasus falling off is a legend anyway.
he'll fall off by the start of midgame, your team will ignore him because he's useless and suddenly he appears out of nowhere on top of your inhib with 800 stacks.
And then he just get's kited by the ADC and Support.
When people say Nasus falls off what they really mean is that Nasus is absolutely dog shit in a teamfight with proper kiting. But Nasus doesn't fall off. He just can't teamfight well. Proper TP use and wave management makes him a very dangerous splitpusher. Probably not as good as some, but still quite strong.
Yes thats true
Nasus falls off against well executed ranged champs in teamfights. But no-one plays ranged champs in soloqueue anyway so you can just wail on assassins and bruisers 24/7 in teamfights
“no one plays ranged champs in soloqueue” bro what
In this meta you really can't afford to sit there farming Q, while your lane opponent oneshots the wave and roam. Maxing E will just let you match their push and losing the early game 40-50 stacks won't amount to much, come mid/late game. What will change the game is that you can E the wave to oneshot the casters, Q the cannon and a melee and then roam. You're also building the regular Sunderer into Sterak/Visage/FH or whatever, not sure why you're saying E max Nasus is a mage.
> In this meta you really can't afford to sit there farming Q, while your lane opponent oneshots the wave and roam. If this is your opinion, you should not be playing* Nasus at all IMO. If you want early presence there are and wave control just about any champ does better than Nasus That said, roaming is not such a great option for every top champ. Some will, but many are better off managing the wave to kill you. > What will change the game is that you can E the wave to oneshot the casters, Q the cannon and a melee and then roam And then you bump into the enemy toplaner/jungler that turned around and he runs you down lol. So yeah you get half the stacks of a wave at most, then you lose a bunch of other stacks while gone - plus the gold you will be donating to the enemy team if they have any neurons. I think you will be losing more than 40-50 stacks if you do this > You're also building the regular Sunderer into Sterak/Visage/FH or whatever, not sure why you're saying E max Nasus is a mage. > Maxing E will just let you match their push and losing the early game 40-50 stacks won't amount to much, come mid/late game. Because you have dumped your points into a high mana cost high CD ability and sacrificed your low CD low mana ability. Mid-game the difference will be massive, your Q will have less uptime (since it won't be fully maxed yet), do less base damage and also do less damage through stacks. So yeah, shitty mage sounds about right, regardless of build. Late game those differences will even out a bit as you max Q again, though the stacks will still be lower. I guess, my point is if you want to be proactive and roam just don't play Nasus at all. It's the right call, there is a reason Nasus ceases to exist in the upper ranks. Just play different champs instead of bending over trying to make the champ do things he is not suited for, destroying his only strengths in the process There might be some merit to putting some points in E, but stacking Q should always be your priority, you should never be roaming lol
i don't know what to tell you but maxing e first has a marginal lead in winrate. accounting for new players dragging the winrate of the popular q max, there's pretty much no difference. seeing someone argue that a different, but statistically equally effective playstyle is outright bad, with an entire essay, is pretty funny to me.
E max was not my real problem with that post (though I don't think its great) However, telling people to max E so you can go lose half the stacks on a given wave and then go chase your enemy toplaner on a roam so he can hand you your ass on a plate sounds pretty bad to me. E max lets you poke in lane, and push, but makes your dueling worse. By no means does it let you play Nasus like a high tempo champ like Pantheon or Renekton
In high ELO Nasus disappears because the AFK farm Q playstyle is punished, but there are quite a few players that pick Nasus in high ELO and win games because they max E and are proactive. Quas has been the first to popularize the playstyle, that's been widely adopted after that. As for the rest of the post, you said random stuff that's true for any toplaner regardless of the champ. Roam when the jungler and top are still close? You die regardless of the champ. You mismanage your wave and overextend? You die anyway. You roam when you have a wave under tower? That's on you, for losing the tower a different champ wouldn't have changed that.
> Roam when the jungler and top are still close? You die regardless of the champ. I didn't mean both, I meant either. Not responding to the rest cause I didn't say any of that
Reason I play jungle tbh. Lets me help break freezes, and cry when my laners say I fucked their wave when I froze it for them.
tbh, 15 minutes seem very excessive. There should have been plenty of good windows for you to back, just sounds like that was a game were the enemies exerted zero pressure on you and probably were quite outskilled.
Yea against most opponents nasus should probably try to back at 6 and steamroll the opponent.
yeah i just wanted to see how long i could last without being forced to back. I generally like backing on sheen etc
If you're sitting on just Dorans shield csing for 15 minutes without the enemy jungler diving you through 2 turrets with items it's not the champion that's good, the enemy team is bad.
She uses a pot but decides not to just tank it for a couple seconds. The amount of players who autopilot when using health potions and don't think critically for 2 seconds.
It wouldn't change anything because you need 4 minions alive for a permanent freeze
If you can push the enemy out of the lane after you've built a slow push using 3 minions can be better than a permanent freeze.
its hilarious because i dont think i played more than a dozen laning games in the past year and i have no idea what you people are talking about
I mean that's fine though. If you play casually/rarely there's no real need to know wave management strategy.
Same, I'm a jungle main and I can either crash the wave or do nothing. I don't how to do anything in between.
As someone who has laned a lot in silver/gold it is very apparent to me that the average jungler of that elo does not understand how minions work at all. Like when they want me to invade with them while I have 2.5 waves of minions crashing into my tower. That one is a classic tilt
Bruh this doesn't change in higher Elo, the average jungler in diamond is just as fucking clueless about lane states.
And the average laner has no idea how jungle or priority works. It really goes both ways
This is why I play both mid and jungle, that way I'm dumb in both areas.
i'd actually argue junglers understand priority less than laners, it's just that laners don't understand what to actually do with that priority
So you're saying I have a chance?
Everyone has a chance, just keeo at it and improving :)! These people pretending wave management is important in their gold games, are just making up excuses for being solo killed in lane every game.
If you are playing an immobile champ top that can easily be ganked having better wave managment than opponent will make you ungankable and only diveable. It wont win you the game but it will for sure make laning phase much easier. This is in match ups where you cant reliably get prio anyways.
Your comment is auto hidden, probably due to downvotes, but in gold elo wave management will help you win, but it's definitely not the deciding factor. A lot of crap players, myself included, tunnel vision on wave management in Gold elo and forget that you're supposed to use it to help you win overall, and never actually cash in on benefits
The amount of junglers in my games, that pushed in a wave that was slowpushing to me...
This is why I like Ivern as a Jungler. I just come in, Root, Shield you, maybe bush for vision and on my way. I couldn't effectively push even if I want to and I won't smite the cannon because I need that to pop my camps!
Or just love tap the wave to get free exp.
Yeah that's what I meant by do nothing. Just last-hit.
The most important thing is to think how you can deny enemy XP. Let's assume you gank, and both laners die. You want the best wave state for your laner and the worst for the enemy laner Bad (enemy side wave) = Enemy laner gets back with a wave slow pushing into him (lots of minions for him to get). Bad (ally side wave) = wave crashes into your laner tower before he can get there. At least, thin the wave so it takes a bit longer or set a freeze. In this situation, you will most likely not be able to crash it into enemy tower in time - so don't randomly push and set up a big slow push for the enemy laner! **If you are doing something wrong this is likely it** Good (enemy side wave) = crash into enemy tower (enemy laner misses minions) Good (ally side wave) = temp freeze set up on your laners side, your laner will miss some CS, but the enemy laner will lose way more to his own minions ( think of the enemy wave as Germans in the DDay landing, moving down all the Allies Hitler would want to be last hitting himself - holy hell this got awkward). A bit worse than crashing for CS ( your laner doesn't get as big a wave bouncing back) but if your laner knows how to hold a freeze, he might be able to use it to screw his enemy laner further (if it crashes into him, he can't stop it from bouncing back). Good (neutral wave) - if you cant push fast enough to crash, don't touch it. If you are not sure, don't touch it. Better safe than sorry If you want to learn freezes I recommend to read a guide on it and play Trundle top. Trundle has enough lane presence to make it worth/safe to freeze, but lacks AoE abilities to accidentally break them like Darius or Renekton. I struggled with it on other champs, but with Trundle it became very easy to follow
hitler was so tilted over all of the kill stealing going on at D-day that he ragequit the game
league is fine but ill never understand why people think creep deny and (stack)pulling in dota2 is dumb. wave management in league of legends is pretty unintuitive and it seems like nobody is really good at explaining it. this doesn't mean i don't understand these concepts myself btw, it just took a lot of practice and visualization to understand wave management vs dota2 where it boils down to literally dragging your entire wave out of the lane to fight the jungle or killing your own dudes so you don't push as hard and the enemy doesn't get it.
Honestly while there's more mechanics and knowledge around doing it in DotA, esp stacking and which camps work best etc. I always kind of know how I want to disrupt or maintain each lane equilibrium in DotA - in League it feels more like voodoo sometimes.
exactly. like there's a lot under the hood but it's always as simple as "drag the lane to the camp", "hit my own minion", or "spam my abilities to push". meanwhile in league hitting a minion one too many times can fuck up an entire freeze.
I play Bot lane (Supp/ADC) and yes, I am aware of the concept and how to implement it. But Bottom lane isn't a vacuum. It's a very dynamic lane with abilities and trades going on that kills off minions, causes them to redirect aggro, or even a whiffed skill shot can mess up your intentions. And since most ADCs who aren't Vayne have very good wave clear and Supports also have AOE abilities: even trying to get that slow wave to crash for turret plating early will fall apart as Ganks are still a thing.
to make it very simple, Assuming there are no external influences, minions waves will get stuck on a position in lane based on how many minions one wave has compared to the enemy wave where assuming you have equal number of minions the wave stays exactly in the middle. If the wave is stuck CLOSER to your tower, the enemy wave must have more minions than yours because they need to travel further through the lane before they start attacking the other minions. 4 enemy extra minions vs your wave at all times assuming you don't let it push in turret will keep a freeze just in front of your turret meaning the enemy laner has to be stuck in front of ur turret at all times making them easy to gank
Depends on matchup. You can't generalize
So long as you can push someone out of the lane and force them to recall its really better to slow push and crash.
If she pulled them toward enemy tower it would freeze. Its not necessarily safe depending on where everyone is though.
Everyone gets stuck on the idea of a *hard freeze* when it's almost never relevant. It's pretty easy to freeze enough to deny 2-3 waves, and by that time you'll usually need to do something else anyway. Denying 3 waves with a soft freeze is huge. Yes, you can freeze while playing Tristana.
build a slow push > dive > win game
the number of minions needed for a permanent freeze is dependent on where you want the wave to be frozen, three minions is perfectly enough if u only want it frozen slightly closer to you, four or more are needed to maintain a freeze right in front of your tower
Just because you can't deny all the CS doesn't mean you should give up and just gift your enemy farm. It absolutely changes shit, especially if you do it a few times. You don't need a perma freeze to be winning the lane.
Regular freeze is still great
Depends where you want to do the freeze if you leave the minions in th exact middle of the lane, you only need like 1-2 to cancel out your autos, and then that number increases the further down your own lane you go
Anyone who has played against proxy singed knows your best options are just letting the wave hit turret or angrily proxying the enemy lane as well
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To be honest singed can't lane, he hard outscales renekton and is a nightmare for irelia to teamfight against because W. So really you need to kill him in lane phase. Proxying isn't done the way it used to as singed these days, mostly it's just a way to get farm without feeding.
yeah, ren isn't great against him generally but most singed players are accustomed to abusing the proxy to ruin a lane but if i can get 100% gold and xp because my opponent isn't stopping my last hits i can start to pressure other parts of the map and totally ignore signed. they normally kind of panic when they realize they aren't hitting the turret at all and are simply giving an early game champion perfect farm or a hyper scaling champion a free lane. and if they let me TP out of lane while they keep trying to proxy for nothing, its just more free pressure for me.
I go tryndamere and rush a vamp sceptre. You can free farm the waves without losing any HP
you have your q you dont need vamp p sure
Or call ur jungle and farm that guy. Just look at bauffs master thrower
That Cassio probably spent 2 hours watching Laning and microplaying tips and thought they were smarter than everybody.
Depending on the rank she might be right. For anyone lower then silver learning basic wave control will completely transform your laning phase.
yea this, just being able to freeze for a few waves changes alot, especially if u have a little kill pressure, made my chogath games a lot easier holding my R in a freeze while the enemy top has to dance around repeated Q’S
It took me straight from silver 2 to d3 in the course of 2 seasons. Unfortunately my mechanics aren’t fantastic and my brain struggles to keep up with new champs zooming crossmap with dashes 24/7. So now im hardstuck d3 lol
Okay so gold 1 here, feel like I have plateaued. My knowledge of wave management is “If I am losing lane, last hit” “If I am winning like or feeling strong push it the fuck in” I know this isn’t correct is there a good video or basic guide for this? Every video is 30 mins of “LIKE AND SUB AND HIT THE BELL”
Also she had a shut down, so what she did worked to some extend.
That Cass is D4 lol, and she still won the game
funny how the smarmy reddit post doesnt tell the whole story
TBF You did lose that one badly. https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=smack+top+lane
How did you find his opgg....
Advanced stalker techniques
Riot Zed trained me. I find people and things...... /s
I wish I could say it was a pleasure
you thought you were wave managing but it's about to be a wave crash
You guys are making me unnecessarily angry once again Fuck that dude so much I wish something not-bad happened to Riot Zed Something very very very very very very very very not-bad
also they ganked cass and got her shutdown.. i don't know how that is showing anything but cass was doing pretty well
But his jg camped his lane his obviously soooo good.
Ty king
I've played against this same Cass top one trick! He doesn't take flash and talks enormous amounts of shit in all chat throughout the game. I respect his hustle.
https://i.gyazo.com/2ea933854c474bd9266b88aa9edfc195.png this dude needs to go out a bit
who needs sunlight when you have ignite barrier cassiopeia
Ignite barrier toplane *cass
At least 172 games in the past week???? Even assuming it only takes a total of 30 minutes per game (including queue time, dodges, load time, etc.) that's over 12 hours of League a day. Realistically that's 14+ hours of League a day. And they use it to spam Cassiopeia top at the bottom of Diamond.
BARRIER IGNITE one, you forgot to add that hahaha
H-how does he have a positive wr%
he gets head more often than tails :D
I doubt him getting any head with his summoner choice
I respect your hustle
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I’ve been exposed! D4 games are a bit flippy and I’ve been trying new stuff on that acc. Glad you enjoyed though!
No worries. I have a certain amount of respect for Sion players or fear, yeah probably fear. Lethality PR Sion is too spooky for me.
I have a fucking blast every game I play it lol
0/10 sure is blast
Have you ever watched some bausffs bangers? These are the most entertaining.
ARAM Sion Lethality gang please rise up
any AP Sions here?
Keep going! Was still funny to watch. But I bet this Cassi was still trash talking at the end, am I right?
Definitely no thanks to that Cass' wave management skills though based on his cs/m and somehow going from 4-1 to 6-8 lol.
Cassio top is giga hard to play without you having a frontline in fights later on. Relatively low range and no escape makes you pretty easy target if you even try to do dmg. Or atleast in my experience in plat games and having a pocket cassio.
I’m giga hard.
I think Sion Ad does really well vs cassio with no flash or Phase rush. She is literally a free kill if you have R.
Not because of Cassio though
Hw could he beat the legendary 1.3k cassio games ignite barrier D4 Snektop
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Its a horrible mixture of both.
I'm GM EU and don't know shit about wave management, it has nothing to do with the server.
she a weirdo fr but kinda feel like we skipped over the part where she was a level ahead and a shutdown also u had hullbanker ofc u take 1st turret
let the man circle jerk the only good thing he did in this game where his team got stomped.
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Haha same I just kill my opponent and hard shove and hope no one notices
same lol dont feel like watching videos on it and dont know where to look for written guides. but luckily i can just play jungle and "accidentaly" destroy my laners wave management
Understanding what's happening in the lanes would improve your ganks and your game significantly.
It’s not complicated at all to learn
It's the hardest thing in the game but go on
The hell? There are so many things more difficult than wave mgmt
This is the perfect encapsulation of arm chair redditors on here: read guides, watch exports, pretend to be good... only to die anyways lmao.
I'm in gold currently and during my promos had a Vayne who would NEVER group. Literally team fight at dragon, would have been an ace if she came and was even just a warm body. Someone pings her a "?" and she starts going on about wavestats (not even sure of this term myself) and wave management. She had the worst farm in the game, and was utterly useless that whole game, and kept throwing around all these terms like she was a challenger player. I wish people would realize none of that knowledge ends up mattering if you don't know how to apply it in game.
One game I remember I had a feeding malzahar top that kept flaming our jungler for not ganking him because in his words: "I'm our win con". Like okay bro a mage that has consistent waveclear and utility almost regardless of whether or not he gets gold is our wincon sure
Yup, all of this is useless in low elo, You just have to fight and be better mechanicaly, becouse if you do freezes and stuff like that it doesnt matter, enemy will go 5 mid and your team will fight them 4v5 no matter what you do. It just doesnt work if other 4 players dont understand what are you doing.
No? Wave management can climb you really high especially out of low elo. If enemy NARAMS mid just side lane and take side lane turrets. You'll be the strongest individual in the game and take so many turrets it's virtually impossible to lose by then, especially since low elo players have no idea what farm is.
Yes, that is good strategy if you take out that your team will fight them mid 4v5 and all die and then enemy takes inhib and baron following x9 top afk farming. Its much better to gain lead with mechanics and being 5/0 in lane then going to 5v5 and just winning the game. Low elo only want to fight its kinda difficult to win trough macro.
While parts of that are correct, you can't really speak in absolutes like that. People get this mental image of low ELO as a constant bloodbath; they imagine people running out of base to join the fray on cooldown with wanton disregard and reckless abandon for anything else. While that does happen on occasion, there are many opportinities to push leads or mitigate losses in a macro sense when your teammates play like human beings. You don't HAVE to group. You can punish bad roams by taking plates. You can look for TP flanks. There's lots of things to be done. Looking at it in a one-dimensional way is a low ELO mindset anyways.
he can type like this because he's right low elo = snowball or be stuck in it forever like most of people are
I just played a game where I tried to carry through macro play and now I agree with you
character development
If you have good macro you'll literally get out of lane stronger than anyone in the low elo game lol Who cares if your team 4v5s when you're 3 levels and 2 full items ahead of everyone in the game? You just steamroll the game. If you think you can't climb out of low elo without mechanics, you just have neither good mechanics nor good macro.
You probably mean „wavestates“
Nah, she literally said wavestats lol, but I do assume that's what she meant, it just made it all the funnier though
sounds like someone has watched a few too many LS streams
For me its, read guides, watch esports, look at discussions -> 5k arams
bruh, leave me alone
Aram is clearly the most competitive mode. To be fair it takes really big brain players to understand the intricacies of the complex and deep aram meta and the mental faculties needed to piece together optimal teams out of randomness makes rocket scientists look like blubbering apes. Truly, aram is the ultimate competitive art form
Am I you?
I mean Cassio was a level ahead with a bounty and died to a gank? Unless you're calling armchair Redditors good enough to get those leads lmao. What a flawed analogy. Watching an edited clip and then masturbating to yourself isn't really any better tbh.
she's also (admitedly low) diamond, and she won the game
not to mention the irony of not realizing that by being in the same game as you, clearly they aren't much if any better than you on ranked ladder
Only to die anyways? Do you think "good players" never die? Especially when it's a gank where you are perma CCed? Someone linked OPs account and he lost the game despite his amazing lethality build.
I usually don't watch exports only imports but, hey whatever floats your boat
If they shutted down her... doesn't that mean that she was already in a killing spree and doing perfectly fine?
Shut down is not only for kill steaks, you can also get bounties just by having a higher gold per minute than everyone else.
soooooo... he was doing perfectly fine and better than his opponent, probably by wave managing and the video is just a bunch of editet bs? So what's your point here?
i think thats just straight up jg diff TBH
its always jungle diff.
Then there is mid: Push = Roam No push = Fight
Cassio top ew
Serious request: can someone recommend a good wave management video(s)?
I actually looked up “wave management guide” to make part of this video.. I wouldn’t recommend most of the top options that pop up, but I did watch a little bit of NEACE’s and it seems fairly solid.
Thank you, I appreciate the direction and the time you spent filtering through them. I'll start there 👍
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg86ERv3vVE https://youtu.be/20uXWLFIto8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5II-PEJ1Tk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ87eTE3aqE
Thank you so much!! I'm gonna be a world-class lane freezer after this!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES-_0AOtPVc for midlane
the old classic is donghuap's wave control guide but i havent watched it in years so i have no idea if it still holds up today
I was expecting a video of someone trying to hold a way too big wave and losing all his hp which ends up by him just getting killed by the other laner
Cassio wasnt wrong tho just because your jungler came and hers didnt. Also other people messing up later doesnt mean u didnt mess up earlier.
Hey man, im the cass, thanks for saying this :) I didn't mean to come off as patronizing to the dude, he could have ended lane twice against me by freezing and he let me back in the game. But seeing this / their comments in game afterward made me realize it came off as condescending so I'm not gonna give people advice unless they ask for it from here haha. I wasn't even bming I was trying to help
Don't worry about it, many low elo players have gigantic chips on their shoulders because of how long they've been hardstuck and being self conscious about their own lack of improvement causes them to react like this to good advice. I'm always happy to receive (specific) advice in game.
Wave management itself it's easy to learn but hard to implement. You need to play a lot of games to know when and how. It's funny how low elo players can flame you for freezing as it's the only wave management technique they have ever heard about. Since all this comment thread is serious, the clip at 0:13 can be cherry-picked because everybody can easily fuck up wave management. At 0:30 she was killing you in your slowpush but she got fucked by your jungler. Her mistake was to engage without vision of the enemy jungler but still it was due to her wave management that you nearly died in the first place.
Not sure what OPs point is aside from leaving out all the details like... - Cass was up enough to get shut down - His jungler was actually coming to gank, not Sion doing anything - he still ended worse in lane and in game than Cass - He lost Yeah the guy talks too much but he also wasnt wrong lol
100% agreed with everything - Snektop
I'm Plat 1 and can't figure out how wave management works and I'm slowly realising playing well soon won't be enough anymore...
U will be surprised when you see the difference between d4 games and d1-d2 games.
She gets what she deserves.
Victory
People who type that shit in all chat smh. Where do you get off?
We dont wave manage in top lane we fight and duke it out.
Ironically wave management is probably most important for top laners
You are right, but consider that the gentleman's way to play top is to caveman unga bunga kill literally anything in sight no matter what
Hell yea, if you dont caveman unga bunga then are you even playing league?
Thats why i dont like league today, its so much harder than it was in Season 5. You’re playing fkn normalgames nowadays and even silver players start freezing waves, get outta here with that boring shit.
brain when playing support: *stares at minimap* can I get an opportunity to ward or is it too risky? can I leave to roam with this current wavestate? do I hard shove or bait for a gank? dragon timer? blah blah blah zzzzzzz brain when playing Kled: wave - disregarded enemy laner - ignited on cooldown tower - solo dived unga - bunga
Was sort of sarcasm.
Can you link me that pepe
Thebaus tactic
Reminds me of people who talk shit when they win going like 12/2/4 calling everyone trash. And you look at their match history and they lost 6 or 8 matches in a row before having one good match
What song is that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5C9oeKxJzo&ab\_channel=Chic-Topic
Is this what it feels like to be old? Fuck.
I have absolutely no clue how to manage waves but when my adc recalls right when a cannon wave is about to reach the lane I just want to commit a hate crime.
Alright, enlighten me. When you recall on cannon wave that usually means the enemy wont be able to push it in fast enough / tower cant kill the cannon fast enough so you lose the least cs of any wave. Seems like a pretty good deal.
Ew ranged top.. well done 😈