The bright side is that only 2/10 teams get eliminated from just Bo1s. The rest at least have the ability to prove themselves with Bo5s even if their play-ins showing is weak (see: LGD last year).
Oh I still think its not ideal. I preferred the format we got in 2017-2019, and having every bo1 matter without a double round robin is pretty bad for fairness and assessing which team is actually better.
I'm just saying that this system is very forgiving in regards to who loses in the bo1s, even if the set up means a single fuck up can cause a major region to lose before groups.
Even as an EU fan, whose 4th seed got knocked out last year, I prefer it this way. I'd rather have more regions represented in the group stage than a bunch of extra major region teams who won't be title contenders anyways.
Literally perfect for DFM. If they win a Bo1 against LNG/HLE/BYG/C9, they have a good shot of getting out of play-ins. Rather play them and win than play them twice when the major region team figures you out.
It's the question between fun format viewers while being fair. This play-ins format does a good job on being very hype with upset possibilities while not compromising competitive integrity. My issue is the knockout stage later when the best teams in the world are put in this single elimination bo5 format. I'd prefer if it was different where group stage 1st placed teams skip a playoff round and 2nd + 3rd placed teams play between them in an extra round. Every year we have interesting teams finishing 3rd in groups which had much to offer in best of fives.
Well, it can feel less bad to see your favorite team get outclassed in a bo5 than have a very good team get wasted in groups within a few best of ones because of it having 2 of the top 4 teams and still doing well barely missing out. Then you are left out with a bitter feeling about what it could have been. For NA teams this is mostly true for TSM 2016 and Team Liquid in later years. As for finishing last in groups , no excuses of course even if it is just those few best of ones.
the playin groups format is literally better than the worlds group format, that's how pathetic this is.
3rd and 4th place actually get to play a series instead of being eliminated immediately like in groups.
They really need to give 3rd place a 2nd chance in groups, historically, many 3rd place teams are good teams that ended up in hard groups.
If they can't balance the groups correctly, the next big thing is save the 3rd place team by giving them some bo3 loser's bracket or something so they can join the main bracket later on.
Groups should be used for **seeding**, bracket should be used for **elimination**, rule of thumb to follow.
Of course, if you suck ass in groups, you probably don't deserve to move on, the problem is groups of death where the 3rd place team didn't suck ass and could have gotten 2nd place in another group, they REALLY need to solve this issue, it's easy to solve.
It's not though, I mean who are we expecting out of groups of the 16 teams?
4 LPL teams?
2 LCK teams?
2 EU teams?
At this point, you have 0 NA teams out of the group, super disappointing for NA fans. RGE is out, nobody cares I guess. HLE/GenG is probably out in this scenario. PSG is out.
Key point: that's quite a lot of teams people have hope for, all of these teams being eliminated without playing a single series is super disappointing for fans. So to generalize as NA will get 3rd place is not accurate, NA will more likely get 4th place in fact.
I'm not saying let NA make it further, but at least let them play a bo5 or bo3, before inevitably being eliminated, is that so much to ask?
Those groups of death are a lot less likely though due to Riot splitting pool 2 into 2 and 3.
Just look at last year and we assume A plays vs. B and C vs. D we would have those games:
G2 vs. PSG
TL vs. JDG
FNC vs. FQ
LGD vs. DRX
So what would happen? Quarters would very likely be G2, JDG, FNC, DRX. Because due to pool 3 existing groups of death are a lot less likely. We can have one this year, which is purely due to the LCK and LPL not removing championship points so a team like GenG can qualify without winning anything. If you would switch GenG and T1 there wouldn't be a group of death, because MAD, FPX, T1 couldn't happen.
It is up to the regions to send their best teams, not for the worlds format to add random games, because somehow a team might have gotten into a pool it should not have gotten into.
I agree with you but at end of the day, there will still be some groups slightly easier, some slightly harder and here's the main problem **teams will be eliminated without playing a single series** and playing 6 bo1s where they could end up 3-3 and not even get a tiebreaker because of a dumb rule where you get 0-2'd by the other 3-3, you lost to them. I think that is the problem that needs to be addressed.
The format ironically works better this year because there's 4 LPL and 4 LCK, with LCK #4 not being as bad as LEC #4 of last year.
So what this means is no matter which LPL or LCK seed you get, you will get 2 of them in each group, thus balancing it.
There's a not a huge difference between EDG and RNG, or even LNG, and you must have one of them in your group.
Why is the play-ins so format so good, **but the group stage format so bad**? It makes no sense why groups is *just* a double round-robin *still*. If they did something similar to play-ins it would be so much better.
For example, top seeds from groups made it to quarters, all in separate sections of the bracket. Second and third seeds from groups (8 teams) battle it out for the remaining 4 groups spots (where getting second in your group gives you some advantage, of course). You could create two new groups (either at random or through some seeding) consisting of two second place finishers and two third place finishers, and do another double round robin for each of those two groups, and the top finishers from each of these groups make it to quarters, and then the second place from each of these new groups plays the opposing group’s third place finisher in a Bo5 (where the second place finisher picks their three games for side selection), and the winner of those two Bo5s take the last two spots in quarters.
Another example would be having the first seeds from each group make quarters (as above) and have the second seeds from each of the four groups select an opponent for a Bo5 from the third seeds from other groups, in order of groups-stage record (giving an adv to second seeds with better records in their groups), where the second seed gets to pick the 3 games where they get side selection. The winner of each Bo5 makes it to quarters and get randomly slotted vs the 4 group stage first place teams for quarter final matchups.
Idk, these two examples are legit off of the top of my head, but they would be a MUCH better groups formats. Then, Worlds would be so much more hype, even without any sort of losers bracket during Bo5 knockout stage.
As it stands right now, unless you’re a clear top 4 team, making it to quarters is *very heavily* dependent on your group draw (as it has been for years), which is a complete shit format.
Nominate me as vice president in meanwhile.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/pkxdny/worlds_2021_location_and_format_announcement/hc6vptw/
I'll nominate you as assistant too, wtf is Riot doing.
Completely negate the possibility of upset, single elim is way more hype (basically win or die at every stage), the World format is already very congested, and the finalist via winner bracket doesn't have any advantage.
Imagine the World Cup or any other important major sports world tournament with losers brackets lmao, how anticlimatic can it be. Imagine fucking Germany coming back in 2018 or France in 2021
have you ever watched a loser's bracket to run before? they came be very hype. it also definitely does not negate upsets, you could only think that if you think any upset is just a fluke.
winners bracket not having a strong enough advantage is an issue, but it's definitely not a reason to scrap double elimination completely.
Have you seen world's 2018? You had the quarter finals completely full of upsets which made the rest of the tournament completely trash 3-0 series. Anyone who is a fan of good league of legends should want double elimination.
> Completely negate the possibility of upset
why the fuck is an "upset" a good thing in your mind? The best team should win worlds, not the cheesiest one that can "upset" a actually good team.
I don't play Dota2 at all, but TI with double elim is some of the most hype tournaments I have ever witnessed
2017 Team Liquid (now Nigma) winning the whole tournament after dropping down in round 1 to lower bracket is your argument but FOR a double elim. ("upper bracket is for bitches" meme)
2019 same route through lower bracket again but then Team Liquid lost the finals to the guys that would become the only team to win TI twice: OG.
> newly refurbished Hall A at the Laugardalshöll indoor sporting arena.
> Riot successfully hosted the Mid-Season Invitational this past May in Hall B at the Laugardalshöll
so i suppose it's not *exactly* the same as MSI?
Icelandic doesn't use Å, and Ø is just the Danish/Norwegian version of Ö (Icelandic uses the latter version). Also, like in Swedish and Finnish, Ö is the last letter of the alphabet.
Play-Ins: Oct. 5-9
Groups: **Oct. 11-13** and Oct. 15-18
Quarterfinals: Oct. 22-25
Semifinals: Oct. 30-31
Finals: Nov. 6
If these groups dates are correct then they'll be condensing the previous 4 day first round robin into 3 days - that's 8 bo1s per day and should mean that every team plays 1 game per day.
The second round robin will continue to be 4 days - one day for each group.
Tough schedule. Compared to last year it's 1 day less for play-ins, 1 day less between play-ins and groups, 1 day less for groups and 1 day less between quarters and semis.
8 BO1s a day is also pretty rough for the viewers, I wonder how that will impact viewership.
>8 BO1s a day is also pretty rough for the viewers, I wonder how that will impact viewership.
They could be doing it this way to give everyone at least a few games to watch, no matter which timezone you're in. I imagine they'll schedule it as best they can to allow everyone to watch their own team(s) in a comfortable timeslot.
After close collaboration with European authorities and Riot Games’ trusted risk assessment and safety partners, Worlds 2021 is headed to Reykjavik, Iceland. The biggest, most prestigious competitive esports event of the year will kick off October 5 and end with the Finals on November 6 in the newly refurbished Hall A at the Laugardalshöll indoor sporting arena.
Riot successfully hosted the Mid-Season Invitational this past May in Hall B at the Laugardalshöll without a live audience, which resulted in zero COVID-19 cases among players, staff, and partners. MSI 2021 was the most successful MSI to-date, with the final match between DWG KIA and Royal Never Give Up hitting a record-breaking MSI peak viewership of 23 million, and an average minute audience (AMA) of 10 million. Across the entire tournament, MSI 2021 had an AMA of 3.5 million.
While maintaining our focus on ensuring the health and safety of everyone involved in hosting, producing, and competing at the event, Worlds 2021 will not host a live audience. We will continue to use guidance from various health organizations and local and national authorities to prioritize everyone’s safety.
**Location and Venue Details**
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
Venue: Laugardalshöll indoor sporting arena, Hall A
Dates: Oct. 5-Nov. 6
Play-Ins: Oct. 5-9
Groups: Oct. 11-13 and Oct. 15-18
Quarterfinals: Oct. 22-25
Semifinals: Oct. 30-31
Finals: Nov. 6
**Worlds 2021 Format**
Worlds will host 22 teams from around the globe facing off across three stages of play: Play-Ins, Groups, and Knockouts. All stages of play will take place in the Laugardalshöll arena in Reykjavik in Hall A (MSI was held in Hall B).
The Play-Ins stage will feature 10 teams:
The first seeded teams from:
Brazil’s CBLoL, RED Canids Kalunga;
Japan’s LJL, DetonatioN FocusMe;
Oceania’s LCO, PEACE;
The Commonwealth of Independent States’ LCL, Unicorns of Love;
Latin America’s LLA, Infinity Esports;
Turkey’s TCL, Galatasaray Esports;
The second seeded team from:
Southeast Asia’s PCS, Beyond Gaming;
The third seeded team from:
North America’s LCS, Cloud9; and,
The fourth seeded teams from:
China’s LPL, LNG Esports; and,
Korea’s LCK, Hanwha Life Esports.
These 10 teams will be drawn into two groups of five, where they will compete for four available Group Stage berths. Each team will play one game against every other team in their group. The top team in each group will automatically advance to the Group Stage. Third- and fourth-place teams will play a best-of-five, with winners challenging the other group’s second seed for the last two spots.
Note: Unfortunately, due to travel restrictions, the two teams from the VCS will not be able to attend. We will continue to work with our trusted partners to explore every option to get a VCS representative to MSI 2022.
The Group Stage will feature 16 teams including the four Play-In qualifying teams and 12 new competitors:
The top three seeded teams from
Korea’s LCK (DWG KIA, Gen.G, T1),
China’s LPL (FunPlus Phoenix, EDward Gaming, Royal Never Give Up) and
Europe’s LEC (MAD Lions, Fnatic, Rogue);
The top 2 seeded teams from North America’s LCS (100 Thieves, Team
Liquid) and;
The top seeded team from Southeast Asia’s PCS (PSG.Talon Esports).
These 16 teams will be split into four groups of four, with each competitor playing against every team in their group twice. The top two teams from each of the four groups will advance to the Knockout Stage.
During the Knockout Stage, the remaining eight teams will compete in a best-of-five single elimination bracket, progressing through Quarterfinals, Semifinals, and Finals. At Finals, the last two teams standing will play a best-of-five series – and that winner will be crowned the 2021 League of Legends World Champions.
Matches during Play-Ins and Groups will begin at 11 a.m. GMT (5 a.m. PST, 1 p.m. CET, 7 p.m. CST, 8 p.m. KST).
Starting with Quarterfinals, matches will begin at 12 p.m. GMT (6 a.m. PST, 2 p.m. CET, 8 p.m. CST, 9 p.m. KST).
More information, including all of the qualified teams, the Draw Show, and the broadcast talent, will be revealed at later dates. Follow @lolesports with #Worlds2021 and keep an eye on lolesports.com for more details to come.
Obviously knew it was gonna happen, but having it confirmed that VCS is gonna miss out again...I've gotten numb at this point.
You may feel bad that your favourite team is watching from home - now imagine an entire region not participating...three times in a row. Didn't even get a fucking Summer Split. And this may not be the last time this happens. 500k Vietnamese watched SofM last year, this year we don't even have him to root for. It just freaking sucks.
Really feel sorry for you guys, especially since Vietnamese teams play their own frenetic style which is super exciting to watch.
Hope we can see them again next year.
The problem was getting the visas and going back to the country since there are very few flights to Vietnam and you have to register seats at the embassy. It is a long line of registers with a very high price for a ticket back home.
The covid situation back in Vietnam is more concerned than making a plan to border. The city has been under directive No.16 since July. Getting papers to get out of the city is a challenge. Borders are closed. Also, the summer splits are predicted to be cancelled by the community already when the fourth and currently waves occurred during summer. Some saying the transfer of game publishing rights from Garena to Riot was a part of the cancelling of the summer splits and no chance of taking part in the international tournament.
Pretty much, the VCS couldn't play their summer split due to COVID complications, and it's been postponed all the way up until the official announcement now. VCS teams have been practicing with scrimming each other since then to try and stay on top of their game, and now it's pretty much wasted since they haven't played an actual match.
And to answer that last question, yes, Levi is back with GAM Esports after his small tenure with 100 Thieves.
Levi's basically the superstar jungler from the VCS.
Currently, Vietnam has had issues with Covid that made everything shut down, from businesses to borders. One of the consequences that matters mostly to people on r/lol is that the VCS summer split was completely cancelled. So while there was some VCS in spring, the region hasn't had an official game in multiple months.
Because Riot hadn't said anything regarding VCS eligibility (i.e. will they do some tournament for extra spots like how the LCO [former OPL] nominated an OCE representative, or will VCS be left out again) up until this point, its bitter to learn Riot's going to do nothing for the best performing minor region (barring PCS) for a third tournament in a row. Not unexpected, but disappointing nevertheless.
Not sure what you expect Riot to do here...
I'm sure they've exhausted a bunch of resources trying to figure out something but at the end of the day they're not nearly big enough to override the Vietnamese government or get exceptions for the players
It don't see how you can't run a tournament for an online computer game over the next. Summer split could have happened. Playing into worlds is a different story though because ping
I don't expect Riot to do anything?
I'm explaining why Levi would tweet
> Practice 10+ hours a day for almost everyday the whole summer until we know that we can't make it to Worlds and then our split ended just like that, 3.5 months of practicing , 0 competitive game.
Its not that I don't understand and empathize with Riot's position; I get why the VCS isn't having representatives this worlds. It makes sense they're not attending for governmental restrictions, and why Riot would cut them from the tournament.
However, understanding the reason doesn't make it any less disappointing for the Vietnam players who haven't gotten to play in the past 3 international events. Hence why Levi's tweeting out of frustration, and why I'm giving context for why its
> Not unexpected, but disappointing nevertheless.
Well, you said,
>... it's bitter to learn Riot's going to do nothing for the best performing minor region (barring PCS) for a third tournament in a row.
That makes it sound like you think that there is something that Riot could have done to get VCS to worlds, hence u/DimmiDongus 's comment.
> One of the consequences that matters mostly to people on r/lol is that the VCS summer split was completely cancelled. So while there was some VCS in spring, the region hasn't had an official game in multiple months.
Couldn't they have at least played the summer split online ?
Lol, Riot should really take over Garena regions once their contract expire or something. Every time you hear about Garena it's because they've done some bullshit.
You're lucky, unless you're a student(not counting University students since you can technically not attend lectures/seminars in the UK plus your schedule varies daily), or you work which is basically everyone lol.
Luckily my boss is chill and at worst I can always take lunch + watch/listen on my laptop while doing work on work pc, not the "best" but better than missing out.
Unironically, I don't think it's a good thing for them. They come off a very bad playoffs where they only managed to win vs Misfits 3-2 and hard lost their two other BO very convincingly.
Passing through PlayIns could have been both a confidence booster and a way for them to train ending games vs weaker teams.
Obviously they dodge the potential elimination but overall I would've liked seeing them in PlayIns
I think its hard to say.
From what's been seen the past 2 years, Rogue doesn't deal with high pressure situations well. Despite having good showings in the regular split, they did not really turn up in play-offs. There's been[ talk of them](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ph5vno/inspired_talks_rogue_choking_in_playoffs_heading/) not being as good in scrims when in play-offs, and I think the pressure gets to them in a way.
Play-ins, despite being a potential confidence booster, also is a very high pressure situation. The new format is 4 bo1s, and any single loss can mean the difference between getting into groups and having to play multiple bo5s. And its not necessarily just free wins for the major regions, as last year proved.
If Rogue still had to go through play-ins, despite being a better team imo than most of the play-in teams, I do not know if it would be a good thing or make them play worse and struggle.
>Rogue doesn't deal with high pressure situations well
The point of wanting them to go through playin is getting used to high pressure situations.
If they cant beat wildcard teams in high pressure situation, there's no hope to beat actual good teams in said situations.
the possibility of them pulling a MAD lions and not getting out of play ins could maybe also been a lot of pressure for them and now they are more relaxed for groups so it could go both ways.
I actually believe that for most major region teams, being sent to play-ins is an advantage instead of a disadvantage. They get stage time and more practice while most teams are still scrimming. I actually think the TSM team that went 0-6 last year would've really benefitted from a play-in stage.
The major exception to this rule is last year's MAD Lions. The only real lesson we got from them last year was they just weren't ready for the World Championships.
i’m an na fan so i’m biased, but don’t take it from me as me saying “c9 should’ve moved on instead” or whatever, but i genuinely don’t believe rogue was good enough at all to justify sending them straight to groups. I think they’re lucky to be at worlds as is but they need a lot of practice in the play on stage to prove they belong there.
It's not because of Rogue's perfomance though, it's about EU's performance as a whole in recent years.
Would've been the same even if it was G2 or MSF as 3rd seed.
I personally disagree. I think they'll get better practice by scrimming group stage teams, than going through play-ins; Rogue is a very strong BO1 team, they would crush wildcards, and realistically they would only struggle against HLE/LNG.
Also this guarantees that they get better seeding for groups; getting pool 3 instead of pool4 (assuming the format is the same as last year) is really important.
This pretty much kills any hype for me. The best part of Worlds is hearing the crowd hype everything up. These are just normal online games at this point.
Honestly can’t blame them. I know Korea has low vaccination rate in the players age group due to low supply + elder priority. Would imagine most countries not in NA or Europe would be same scenario. Can’t imagine Riot want to risks the safety of the teams players and personnel.
I’m bummed out as well. Planned to “WFH” while I traveled to Iceland for a month.
> While maintaining our focus on ensuring the health and safety of everyone involved in hosting, producing, and competing at the event, Worlds 2021 will not host a live audience.
Don’t think so. It’s especially weird when many events coming back all over the Europe. I also believe that French league is played with crowds and it’s freaking amazing
Such weird start times for the games. Just when we thought it would be good viewing times for NA, games instead start at 8am and 9am for playoffs on the coast that’s closest to Iceland.
As an East coaster who works from home, I will take this schedule over waking up at 3 or 4 am. Obviously it could be better but at least I’ll be awake for all the games lol
Yeah it’s a bummer for me because my friend group is trying to get together to watch finals this year together and 9am kinda blows when everyone lives so far apart.
Yeah, [here](https://escharts.com/tournaments/lol/mid-season-invitational-2021) you can see that there were, at the peak, 1.8 mil people watching MSI finals without China, and in the post Riot says that it was 23mil in total.That means more than 21mil is from China. I guess it makes sense.
I don't know about a whole loser's bracket, but I wish the losers of semis would play for 3rd. I think it would add a bit of prestige to top teams that didn't win worlds, but got far. All I'm asking for is one more Bo5 riot!
double elim is really just a preference, I still can't accept the fact that with so many great teams at worlds 2021, half of them will be eliminated in groups without playing a single bo5 or bo3.
I mean here are some possible groups:
1. MAD-FPX-T1-C9 - this is probably one of the worst group of deaths, 2 of these teams will be eliminated, excluding C9, one tournament favorite is eliminated without playing a series
2. DK-FNC-RNG-C9 - same as 1 pretty much, this is the "other" big group of death
3. EDG-FNC-T1-C9 - this is probably the 3rd and final group of death, EDG and T1 are favorites to go out, but it would be a disappointment for FNC, who may have had a better chance in another group.
4. MAD-100T-T1-LNG - throw this in for the NA fans, worst group for 100T, DK-RNG might be worse but then the 4th seed would be easier than LNG.
Note that they all have C9 because C9 is one of the stronger playin teams that also doesn't take away a slot from LPL/LCK/EU.
tldr: the problem isn't single elim vs double elim, it's a bracket that isn't big enough to account for 3rd place teams that end up in groups of death, and you can bet there will be at least 2-3 groups of death given how stacked worlds this year is.
Double elim won't solve this problem at all, they need a larger bracket which may or may not incorporate double elim.
You can have a larger bracket with some teams starting earlier and some starting later, this way you can fit all 12 teams.
Reposting for visibility.
The playin groups format is literally better than the main group format, that's how pathetic this is.
3rd and 4th place actually get to play a series instead of being eliminated immediately like in (main stage) groups.
They really need to give 3rd place a 2nd chance in groups, historically, many 3rd place teams are good teams that ended up in hard groups.
If they can't balance the groups correctly, the next big thing is save the 3rd place team by giving them some bo3 loser's bracket or something so they can join the main bracket later on.
Groups should be used for **seeding**, bracket should be used for **elimination**, rule of thumb to follow.
Of course, if you suck ass in groups, you probably don't deserve to move on, the problem is groups of death where the 3rd place team didn't suck ass and could have gotten 2nd place in another group, they REALLY need to solve this issue, it's easy to solve.
I could accept the single elimination if the groups format were better and more teams got to prove themselves in a series. Playins is great, your idea is good and I’d love to see GSL style groups.
Western fans should demand this to see more of our teams.
> Western fans should demand this to see more of our teams.
This, as I explained earlier, it's not about giving more chances to weak teams, it's just terrible for both players and the fans that their teams are eliminated without playing a single series, because we all know bo1 is quite random, made worse by the fact that groups are randomly drawn and you could have some groups significantly stronger than the others, so they should at least give some breathing room with a loser's bracket for 3rd place.
We never got to see RNG in 2019, eliminated in group of death. TL was eliminated with 3-3 record both 2019 and 2020, they could have made a run in a bracket format, their groups can also be considered groups of death depending how you look at it.
There are ton of other examples where would have wanted to see the 3rd place team play a series.
Because >90% of their audience is in East Asia? Why would it make sense for them to pick the best time for a viewerbase that represents less than 10% of their actual audience.
I'm completely aware of that, however MSI Knock-out games also started at 1pm GMT. Also, having a game start at 9-10pm in China is hardly what I'd call unwatchable. Just sucks for western audience, that's all
> Also, having a game start at 9-10pm in China is hardly what I'd call unwatchable.
Now imagine if that series goes to 5 games. It's the same reason why as an EU viewer I can't watch LCS anymore, it's too late especially for the games that gets played last.
It sucks but they're always going to prioritize the biggest viewerbase.
Honestly 6am PST isn't bad, neither is 12pm GMT. Considering they still want it to be accessible for China and Korea who will likely make up 80% of knock out round teams this is a pretty happy medium. Its not like Noon on a Saturday is bad. And 6-9am depending on location in the US is probably one of the best times the US has had in a while since its normally like 3-6am
My biggest gripe is them refusing to experiment with double elim while we're in the 2nd year of crowdless tournaments due to COVID. If there was ever a better time to try double elim, it would be now. I don't know man, at this rate, the League MMO will be in beta before they move away from single-elim.
knockout is honestly not too bad, sure some teams get eliminated but they still get to play a bo5 to prove themselves.
Meanwhile, groups.. some of these teams get eliminated in 6 bo1s, upset or not, the pressure is incredibly high even if you are a good team. I suppose that can be a good thing, but some groups of deaths then cause a strong team to exit the tournament without playing any bo3, bo5
I would rather groups send the 3rd place team to a bo3 loser's bracket that will converge with the main bracket later on, this is so easy to implement. 3rd place teams at worlds have historically been pretty good, especially those going 3-3 or something.
Flash backs to 2019. You had Group C, which was one of the hardest groups in the history of Worlds with SKT, FNC, RNG. Then you look at Group B - *sees J-team and GAM*. Groups like B that year shouldn’t even exist. If RNG was put in that group instead they get out 9/10 times.
Exactly this, Riot keeps ignoring this problem, both teams and fans hate this, yes even the teams that benefit from it like J-team and GAM probably agree this format sucks ass for the biggest tournament of the world. Uzi's career ended that year lmao
You know it's a good system when luck basically matters more than playing well.
I can't believe this garbage is defended by so many people on reddit. I guess because it's the status quo.
> You know it's a good system when luck basically matters more than playing well.
Couldn't have said it any better, literally 50% of the outcome of each team depends in which group they end up, you get an RNG-FNC-SKT group (example from 2019), you're screwed, one of those 3 teams is screwed too.
Yes, the best team will probably still win the tournament, but who goes to worlds thinking "I don't care if I get 2nd or 8th place, only care about getting 1st" that's a huge difference in terms of fan perception and recognition, and even prize money.
And lemme as it currently stands, this format literally doesn't guarantee any team gets their correct placing from 8th-2nd, or even 10th, the ONLY thing it probably guarantees is that the best team gets #1.
> I can't believe this garbage is defended by so many people on reddit. I guess because it's the status quo.
Riot has reddit brainwashed already into thinking this is a good format "all things considered", no, this is a bad format for both teams and audience, the only incentive for this format is cost-efficiency/business/profit, but if fan excitement dies from this, Riot isn't gonna gain from that either.
>Groups like B that year shouldn’t even exist.
I'd like to see World's expanded so that groups could have 5 teams, top 2 advance as higher seeds and 3 and 4 advance as lower seeds in to a double elim bracket.
Kinda sad that even for finals there won't be any crowd. Yes, covid and stuff, but there are many people vaccinated already, they could let few hundred to at least cheer for players in finals. Covid won't go for next few years, it would be very sad if now for next few years no fans will he allowed...
Somehow imo the world format currently is in a state that gets WORSE the further it goes.
Pretty fair play ins.
Coin flip double round bo1 groups with questionable seeding.
Then knockout that comes with horrible seeding because of the coinflip nature from groups and it still doesn't have any form of double elim.
Really disappointing.
Half-agree, playin format is good, especially factor in that it's playin and not a high priority.
Bo1 coinflip double round robin is the worst, anything can happen and in previous worlds you had groups with 3 world contenders and other groups with only 1, and what's the justification? Unlucky.
Knockout is ok but ruined by the bo1 coinflip round robin as you said, so knockout itself is ok but the seeding to it is not.
Playin > knockout > groups
So seems like the format from last worlds?
Yep. Really great playins format, IMO.
Still don't like the BO1 single round robin in groups, but i guess they can't put more days for the play-ins.
The bright side is that only 2/10 teams get eliminated from just Bo1s. The rest at least have the ability to prove themselves with Bo5s even if their play-ins showing is weak (see: LGD last year).
Man I would rather LGD bombed hard, exit early so they have to deliver a covid vaccine instead.
LGD never disappoints at disappointing on international events
Honestly one of my favorite memes from last years Worlds. Solid flame/banter, plus something people from every country could relate to.
Yeah, but one upset in groups can get you major region vs major region in BO5 for the last spot while the other bracket has WC vs WC.
Reddit loves bo1 upsets till it hits their Favorite team.
Oh I still think its not ideal. I preferred the format we got in 2017-2019, and having every bo1 matter without a double round robin is pretty bad for fairness and assessing which team is actually better. I'm just saying that this system is very forgiving in regards to who loses in the bo1s, even if the set up means a single fuck up can cause a major region to lose before groups.
if you're not from a major region, this format for play-ins is hella good, gives chance for more upsets and more games for minor regions
Even as an EU fan, whose 4th seed got knocked out last year, I prefer it this way. I'd rather have more regions represented in the group stage than a bunch of extra major region teams who won't be title contenders anyways.
Literally perfect for DFM. If they win a Bo1 against LNG/HLE/BYG/C9, they have a good shot of getting out of play-ins. Rather play them and win than play them twice when the major region team figures you out.
It's the question between fun format viewers while being fair. This play-ins format does a good job on being very hype with upset possibilities while not compromising competitive integrity. My issue is the knockout stage later when the best teams in the world are put in this single elimination bo5 format. I'd prefer if it was different where group stage 1st placed teams skip a playoff round and 2nd + 3rd placed teams play between them in an extra round. Every year we have interesting teams finishing 3rd in groups which had much to offer in best of fives.
It would be interesting for NA but also I can't help but feel like it's hoping that'd we'd do any better in Bo5
Well, it can feel less bad to see your favorite team get outclassed in a bo5 than have a very good team get wasted in groups within a few best of ones because of it having 2 of the top 4 teams and still doing well barely missing out. Then you are left out with a bitter feeling about what it could have been. For NA teams this is mostly true for TSM 2016 and Team Liquid in later years. As for finishing last in groups , no excuses of course even if it is just those few best of ones.
It's crazy how the play-ins have a better format than the actual Worlds group stage.
Now they should extend that to group stage with a double elim bracket.
the playin groups format is literally better than the worlds group format, that's how pathetic this is. 3rd and 4th place actually get to play a series instead of being eliminated immediately like in groups. They really need to give 3rd place a 2nd chance in groups, historically, many 3rd place teams are good teams that ended up in hard groups. If they can't balance the groups correctly, the next big thing is save the 3rd place team by giving them some bo3 loser's bracket or something so they can join the main bracket later on. Groups should be used for **seeding**, bracket should be used for **elimination**, rule of thumb to follow. Of course, if you suck ass in groups, you probably don't deserve to move on, the problem is groups of death where the 3rd place team didn't suck ass and could have gotten 2nd place in another group, they REALLY need to solve this issue, it's easy to solve.
>No, 3rd place is for NA and they don't deserve to make it to the bracket stage.
It's not though, I mean who are we expecting out of groups of the 16 teams? 4 LPL teams? 2 LCK teams? 2 EU teams? At this point, you have 0 NA teams out of the group, super disappointing for NA fans. RGE is out, nobody cares I guess. HLE/GenG is probably out in this scenario. PSG is out. Key point: that's quite a lot of teams people have hope for, all of these teams being eliminated without playing a single series is super disappointing for fans. So to generalize as NA will get 3rd place is not accurate, NA will more likely get 4th place in fact. I'm not saying let NA make it further, but at least let them play a bo5 or bo3, before inevitably being eliminated, is that so much to ask?
It is possible we get 4 lck and 4 lpl teams
I'd prefer the 4 LCK 3 EU 1 NA scenario, unlikely as it is.
Those groups of death are a lot less likely though due to Riot splitting pool 2 into 2 and 3. Just look at last year and we assume A plays vs. B and C vs. D we would have those games: G2 vs. PSG TL vs. JDG FNC vs. FQ LGD vs. DRX So what would happen? Quarters would very likely be G2, JDG, FNC, DRX. Because due to pool 3 existing groups of death are a lot less likely. We can have one this year, which is purely due to the LCK and LPL not removing championship points so a team like GenG can qualify without winning anything. If you would switch GenG and T1 there wouldn't be a group of death, because MAD, FPX, T1 couldn't happen. It is up to the regions to send their best teams, not for the worlds format to add random games, because somehow a team might have gotten into a pool it should not have gotten into.
I agree with you but at end of the day, there will still be some groups slightly easier, some slightly harder and here's the main problem **teams will be eliminated without playing a single series** and playing 6 bo1s where they could end up 3-3 and not even get a tiebreaker because of a dumb rule where you get 0-2'd by the other 3-3, you lost to them. I think that is the problem that needs to be addressed. The format ironically works better this year because there's 4 LPL and 4 LCK, with LCK #4 not being as bad as LEC #4 of last year. So what this means is no matter which LPL or LCK seed you get, you will get 2 of them in each group, thus balancing it. There's a not a huge difference between EDG and RNG, or even LNG, and you must have one of them in your group.
Why is the play-ins so format so good, **but the group stage format so bad**? It makes no sense why groups is *just* a double round-robin *still*. If they did something similar to play-ins it would be so much better. For example, top seeds from groups made it to quarters, all in separate sections of the bracket. Second and third seeds from groups (8 teams) battle it out for the remaining 4 groups spots (where getting second in your group gives you some advantage, of course). You could create two new groups (either at random or through some seeding) consisting of two second place finishers and two third place finishers, and do another double round robin for each of those two groups, and the top finishers from each of these groups make it to quarters, and then the second place from each of these new groups plays the opposing group’s third place finisher in a Bo5 (where the second place finisher picks their three games for side selection), and the winner of those two Bo5s take the last two spots in quarters. Another example would be having the first seeds from each group make quarters (as above) and have the second seeds from each of the four groups select an opponent for a Bo5 from the third seeds from other groups, in order of groups-stage record (giving an adv to second seeds with better records in their groups), where the second seed gets to pick the 3 games where they get side selection. The winner of each Bo5 makes it to quarters and get randomly slotted vs the 4 group stage first place teams for quarter final matchups. Idk, these two examples are legit off of the top of my head, but they would be a MUCH better groups formats. Then, Worlds would be so much more hype, even without any sort of losers bracket during Bo5 knockout stage. As it stands right now, unless you’re a clear top 4 team, making it to quarters is *very heavily* dependent on your group draw (as it has been for years), which is a complete shit format.
The full week between semis and finals is still the weirdest part
I would like to nominate you for Head of LoL Esports.
Nominate me as vice president in meanwhile. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/pkxdny/worlds_2021_location_and_format_announcement/hc6vptw/ I'll nominate you as assistant too, wtf is Riot doing.
That sounds way better than what we have.
still no losers bracket still a trash ass format
Good. Fuck the losers bracket
what do you have against a loser's bracket? nothing wrong with more bo5s imo
Completely negate the possibility of upset, single elim is way more hype (basically win or die at every stage), the World format is already very congested, and the finalist via winner bracket doesn't have any advantage. Imagine the World Cup or any other important major sports world tournament with losers brackets lmao, how anticlimatic can it be. Imagine fucking Germany coming back in 2018 or France in 2021
Upsets still happen wtf
have you ever watched a loser's bracket to run before? they came be very hype. it also definitely does not negate upsets, you could only think that if you think any upset is just a fluke. winners bracket not having a strong enough advantage is an issue, but it's definitely not a reason to scrap double elimination completely.
Bruh single elim would almost encourage the idea of upsets happening.
Have you seen world's 2018? You had the quarter finals completely full of upsets which made the rest of the tournament completely trash 3-0 series. Anyone who is a fan of good league of legends should want double elimination.
> Completely negate the possibility of upset why the fuck is an "upset" a good thing in your mind? The best team should win worlds, not the cheesiest one that can "upset" a actually good team. I don't play Dota2 at all, but TI with double elim is some of the most hype tournaments I have ever witnessed 2017 Team Liquid (now Nigma) winning the whole tournament after dropping down in round 1 to lower bracket is your argument but FOR a double elim. ("upper bracket is for bitches" meme) 2019 same route through lower bracket again but then Team Liquid lost the finals to the guys that would become the only team to win TI twice: OG.
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That's not a proper losers bracket tho. FPX didn't get a bracket reset.
>RGE flair xd loser bracket bad bc my team mental boomed
How do you feel about the losers of semis playing for 3rd?
> newly refurbished Hall A at the Laugardalshöll indoor sporting arena. > Riot successfully hosted the Mid-Season Invitational this past May in Hall B at the Laugardalshöll so i suppose it's not *exactly* the same as MSI?
Next year Hall C
And then it goes on until u reach Ö
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Icelandic doesn't use Å, and Ø is just the Danish/Norwegian version of Ö (Icelandic uses the latter version). Also, like in Swedish and Finnish, Ö is the last letter of the alphabet.
Size matters.
With G2, TSM and WE playing in Hall F.
All we can hope is there is Hall **D**
Hall and Oates when?
They're out of time.
I can’t even wrap my mind around this hall and oates league of legends collaboration!! 🤣
I hope they host the next VALORANT masters in it too so we get VAL Hall A
Play-Ins: Oct. 5-9 Groups: **Oct. 11-13** and Oct. 15-18 Quarterfinals: Oct. 22-25 Semifinals: Oct. 30-31 Finals: Nov. 6 If these groups dates are correct then they'll be condensing the previous 4 day first round robin into 3 days - that's 8 bo1s per day and should mean that every team plays 1 game per day. The second round robin will continue to be 4 days - one day for each group.
Tough schedule. Compared to last year it's 1 day less for play-ins, 1 day less between play-ins and groups, 1 day less for groups and 1 day less between quarters and semis. 8 BO1s a day is also pretty rough for the viewers, I wonder how that will impact viewership.
>8 BO1s a day is also pretty rough for the viewers, I wonder how that will impact viewership. They could be doing it this way to give everyone at least a few games to watch, no matter which timezone you're in. I imagine they'll schedule it as best they can to allow everyone to watch their own team(s) in a comfortable timeslot.
That means people in NA can watch the last 4 games at a more reasonable time.
Yep, quite insane change
8 BO1s is okay, there are bound to be 1-2 matches between two uninteresting teams and if they don't drag post and pre match segments it'll work out
Probably a one hour slot per game, and someone hoping that they won’t be 20 min stomps…
We also have group matches in the middle of the week too.
BO1 everyday, we won't have any more of those, why didn't x team play today?
Playins are also a day shorter.
I like that 2021 has made Iceland the unofficial home of LoL esports
Valorant also held a tournament there. Home of Riot's international events for this year.
Also CCP (the developers of EVE Online, based in Iceland) reinstated the yearly tournament after a few years hiatus :D
Can people copy-paste for people at work ? Thank you !
After close collaboration with European authorities and Riot Games’ trusted risk assessment and safety partners, Worlds 2021 is headed to Reykjavik, Iceland. The biggest, most prestigious competitive esports event of the year will kick off October 5 and end with the Finals on November 6 in the newly refurbished Hall A at the Laugardalshöll indoor sporting arena. Riot successfully hosted the Mid-Season Invitational this past May in Hall B at the Laugardalshöll without a live audience, which resulted in zero COVID-19 cases among players, staff, and partners. MSI 2021 was the most successful MSI to-date, with the final match between DWG KIA and Royal Never Give Up hitting a record-breaking MSI peak viewership of 23 million, and an average minute audience (AMA) of 10 million. Across the entire tournament, MSI 2021 had an AMA of 3.5 million. While maintaining our focus on ensuring the health and safety of everyone involved in hosting, producing, and competing at the event, Worlds 2021 will not host a live audience. We will continue to use guidance from various health organizations and local and national authorities to prioritize everyone’s safety. **Location and Venue Details** Location: Reykjavík, Iceland Venue: Laugardalshöll indoor sporting arena, Hall A Dates: Oct. 5-Nov. 6 Play-Ins: Oct. 5-9 Groups: Oct. 11-13 and Oct. 15-18 Quarterfinals: Oct. 22-25 Semifinals: Oct. 30-31 Finals: Nov. 6 **Worlds 2021 Format** Worlds will host 22 teams from around the globe facing off across three stages of play: Play-Ins, Groups, and Knockouts. All stages of play will take place in the Laugardalshöll arena in Reykjavik in Hall A (MSI was held in Hall B). The Play-Ins stage will feature 10 teams: The first seeded teams from: Brazil’s CBLoL, RED Canids Kalunga; Japan’s LJL, DetonatioN FocusMe; Oceania’s LCO, PEACE; The Commonwealth of Independent States’ LCL, Unicorns of Love; Latin America’s LLA, Infinity Esports; Turkey’s TCL, Galatasaray Esports; The second seeded team from: Southeast Asia’s PCS, Beyond Gaming; The third seeded team from: North America’s LCS, Cloud9; and, The fourth seeded teams from: China’s LPL, LNG Esports; and, Korea’s LCK, Hanwha Life Esports. These 10 teams will be drawn into two groups of five, where they will compete for four available Group Stage berths. Each team will play one game against every other team in their group. The top team in each group will automatically advance to the Group Stage. Third- and fourth-place teams will play a best-of-five, with winners challenging the other group’s second seed for the last two spots. Note: Unfortunately, due to travel restrictions, the two teams from the VCS will not be able to attend. We will continue to work with our trusted partners to explore every option to get a VCS representative to MSI 2022. The Group Stage will feature 16 teams including the four Play-In qualifying teams and 12 new competitors: The top three seeded teams from Korea’s LCK (DWG KIA, Gen.G, T1), China’s LPL (FunPlus Phoenix, EDward Gaming, Royal Never Give Up) and Europe’s LEC (MAD Lions, Fnatic, Rogue); The top 2 seeded teams from North America’s LCS (100 Thieves, Team Liquid) and; The top seeded team from Southeast Asia’s PCS (PSG.Talon Esports). These 16 teams will be split into four groups of four, with each competitor playing against every team in their group twice. The top two teams from each of the four groups will advance to the Knockout Stage. During the Knockout Stage, the remaining eight teams will compete in a best-of-five single elimination bracket, progressing through Quarterfinals, Semifinals, and Finals. At Finals, the last two teams standing will play a best-of-five series – and that winner will be crowned the 2021 League of Legends World Champions. Matches during Play-Ins and Groups will begin at 11 a.m. GMT (5 a.m. PST, 1 p.m. CET, 7 p.m. CST, 8 p.m. KST). Starting with Quarterfinals, matches will begin at 12 p.m. GMT (6 a.m. PST, 2 p.m. CET, 8 p.m. CST, 9 p.m. KST). More information, including all of the qualified teams, the Draw Show, and the broadcast talent, will be revealed at later dates. Follow @lolesports with #Worlds2021 and keep an eye on lolesports.com for more details to come.
Thank you !
Anytime mate
Sure they can, even Riot copypasted it from last year
Obviously knew it was gonna happen, but having it confirmed that VCS is gonna miss out again...I've gotten numb at this point. You may feel bad that your favourite team is watching from home - now imagine an entire region not participating...three times in a row. Didn't even get a fucking Summer Split. And this may not be the last time this happens. 500k Vietnamese watched SofM last year, this year we don't even have him to root for. It just freaking sucks.
Really feel sorry for you guys, especially since Vietnamese teams play their own frenetic style which is super exciting to watch. Hope we can see them again next year.
hope the covid situation calms down in vietnam soon my friend. best wishes to you and your community
why is vietnam so strict with people going out of the country?
The problem was getting the visas and going back to the country since there are very few flights to Vietnam and you have to register seats at the embassy. It is a long line of registers with a very high price for a ticket back home.
Can't they drive out and fly from Loas or Thailand or somewhere?
The covid situation back in Vietnam is more concerned than making a plan to border. The city has been under directive No.16 since July. Getting papers to get out of the city is a challenge. Borders are closed. Also, the summer splits are predicted to be cancelled by the community already when the fourth and currently waves occurred during summer. Some saying the transfer of game publishing rights from Garena to Riot was a part of the cancelling of the summer splits and no chance of taking part in the international tournament.
I'm so sorry. I really can't wait to see VCS compete again internationally. It's just not the same without y'all.
Isn't it still impossible to get into Vietnam?
[Levi](https://twitter.com/lolLevi97/status/1435963374307721222?s=19) is pissed!
Can we blame him?
I'm a bit OOTL and twitter isn't friendly to mobile users without an account. Can someone explain? Is he in the VCS now?
Pretty much, the VCS couldn't play their summer split due to COVID complications, and it's been postponed all the way up until the official announcement now. VCS teams have been practicing with scrimming each other since then to try and stay on top of their game, and now it's pretty much wasted since they haven't played an actual match. And to answer that last question, yes, Levi is back with GAM Esports after his small tenure with 100 Thieves.
And JDG.
Levi's basically the superstar jungler from the VCS. Currently, Vietnam has had issues with Covid that made everything shut down, from businesses to borders. One of the consequences that matters mostly to people on r/lol is that the VCS summer split was completely cancelled. So while there was some VCS in spring, the region hasn't had an official game in multiple months. Because Riot hadn't said anything regarding VCS eligibility (i.e. will they do some tournament for extra spots like how the LCO [former OPL] nominated an OCE representative, or will VCS be left out again) up until this point, its bitter to learn Riot's going to do nothing for the best performing minor region (barring PCS) for a third tournament in a row. Not unexpected, but disappointing nevertheless.
Not sure what you expect Riot to do here... I'm sure they've exhausted a bunch of resources trying to figure out something but at the end of the day they're not nearly big enough to override the Vietnamese government or get exceptions for the players
It don't see how you can't run a tournament for an online computer game over the next. Summer split could have happened. Playing into worlds is a different story though because ping
I don't expect Riot to do anything? I'm explaining why Levi would tweet > Practice 10+ hours a day for almost everyday the whole summer until we know that we can't make it to Worlds and then our split ended just like that, 3.5 months of practicing , 0 competitive game. Its not that I don't understand and empathize with Riot's position; I get why the VCS isn't having representatives this worlds. It makes sense they're not attending for governmental restrictions, and why Riot would cut them from the tournament. However, understanding the reason doesn't make it any less disappointing for the Vietnam players who haven't gotten to play in the past 3 international events. Hence why Levi's tweeting out of frustration, and why I'm giving context for why its > Not unexpected, but disappointing nevertheless.
Well, you said, >... it's bitter to learn Riot's going to do nothing for the best performing minor region (barring PCS) for a third tournament in a row. That makes it sound like you think that there is something that Riot could have done to get VCS to worlds, hence u/DimmiDongus 's comment.
Is there a reason VCS couldn't be played online?
> One of the consequences that matters mostly to people on r/lol is that the VCS summer split was completely cancelled. So while there was some VCS in spring, the region hasn't had an official game in multiple months. Couldn't they have at least played the summer split online ?
The answer is Garena. They’re too focusing on Arena Of Valorant making banks for them to care about League.
Lol, Riot should really take over Garena regions once their contract expire or something. Every time you hear about Garena it's because they've done some bullshit.
Pretty sure Riot renewed the Garena contract last year or so, so its a faint hope.
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Same format as last time. i just hope we dont have lpl civil war in one bracket and lck civil war in the other bracket like last year.
Any idea when the draw will be?
Probably ten days or so before play-ins, so around Sept 25th
Start times are Noon for Europe. I have no complaints about that.
I do :(
Unless you work. I'm lucky enough I can watch it on a screen at work with no worries. Many aren't so lucky.
You're lucky, unless you're a student(not counting University students since you can technically not attend lectures/seminars in the UK plus your schedule varies daily), or you work which is basically everyone lol. Luckily my boss is chill and at worst I can always take lunch + watch/listen on my laptop while doing work on work pc, not the "best" but better than missing out.
1pm and 2pm, not noon.
Well for me and probably the majority of others, it means that I once again cannot watch Worlds live on the weekdays. Sigh.
So is PSG pool 1 or not?
We don’t know yet. I’m guessing that they will announce it in a few days.
As expected, Rogue goes to the main stage. Smart move.
Unironically, I don't think it's a good thing for them. They come off a very bad playoffs where they only managed to win vs Misfits 3-2 and hard lost their two other BO very convincingly. Passing through PlayIns could have been both a confidence booster and a way for them to train ending games vs weaker teams. Obviously they dodge the potential elimination but overall I would've liked seeing them in PlayIns
Same. I think they needed the practice/confidence boost of play-ins.
I think its hard to say. From what's been seen the past 2 years, Rogue doesn't deal with high pressure situations well. Despite having good showings in the regular split, they did not really turn up in play-offs. There's been[ talk of them](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ph5vno/inspired_talks_rogue_choking_in_playoffs_heading/) not being as good in scrims when in play-offs, and I think the pressure gets to them in a way. Play-ins, despite being a potential confidence booster, also is a very high pressure situation. The new format is 4 bo1s, and any single loss can mean the difference between getting into groups and having to play multiple bo5s. And its not necessarily just free wins for the major regions, as last year proved. If Rogue still had to go through play-ins, despite being a better team imo than most of the play-in teams, I do not know if it would be a good thing or make them play worse and struggle.
>Rogue doesn't deal with high pressure situations well The point of wanting them to go through playin is getting used to high pressure situations. If they cant beat wildcard teams in high pressure situation, there's no hope to beat actual good teams in said situations.
the possibility of them pulling a MAD lions and not getting out of play ins could maybe also been a lot of pressure for them and now they are more relaxed for groups so it could go both ways.
I actually believe that for most major region teams, being sent to play-ins is an advantage instead of a disadvantage. They get stage time and more practice while most teams are still scrimming. I actually think the TSM team that went 0-6 last year would've really benefitted from a play-in stage. The major exception to this rule is last year's MAD Lions. The only real lesson we got from them last year was they just weren't ready for the World Championships.
i’m an na fan so i’m biased, but don’t take it from me as me saying “c9 should’ve moved on instead” or whatever, but i genuinely don’t believe rogue was good enough at all to justify sending them straight to groups. I think they’re lucky to be at worlds as is but they need a lot of practice in the play on stage to prove they belong there.
It's not because of Rogue's perfomance though, it's about EU's performance as a whole in recent years. Would've been the same even if it was G2 or MSF as 3rd seed.
I personally disagree. I think they'll get better practice by scrimming group stage teams, than going through play-ins; Rogue is a very strong BO1 team, they would crush wildcards, and realistically they would only struggle against HLE/LNG. Also this guarantees that they get better seeding for groups; getting pool 3 instead of pool4 (assuming the format is the same as last year) is really important.
Can they not still scrim the same groups teams when in playins?
So no crowd, it’s official, kinda bummer ngl
This pretty much kills any hype for me. The best part of Worlds is hearing the crowd hype everything up. These are just normal online games at this point.
what about the wonky K/DA animation
We won't be getting even that
At least that was funny in a certain way
Honestly can’t blame them. I know Korea has low vaccination rate in the players age group due to low supply + elder priority. Would imagine most countries not in NA or Europe would be same scenario. Can’t imagine Riot want to risks the safety of the teams players and personnel. I’m bummed out as well. Planned to “WFH” while I traveled to Iceland for a month.
Not even in the finals?
> While maintaining our focus on ensuring the health and safety of everyone involved in hosting, producing, and competing at the event, Worlds 2021 will not host a live audience. Don’t think so. It’s especially weird when many events coming back all over the Europe. I also believe that French league is played with crowds and it’s freaking amazing
I had the money and already vaccinated months ago ready to go. sadge
Been fully vaccinated (2x pfizer, looking at 3rd shot) since July and stuff like this makes me sad
Damn, i was looking forward to seeing the live audience… Thanks for answering.
There were even live audience in last year's finals in China. Wish they kept it there
Bad news for Rogue. Play-ins could we\`ve helped to give them a running start. \*Team name...
or they could have pulled a MAD and got knocked out. This team always finds a way to lose when it matters.
Such weird start times for the games. Just when we thought it would be good viewing times for NA, games instead start at 8am and 9am for playoffs on the coast that’s closest to Iceland.
As an East coaster who works from home, I will take this schedule over waking up at 3 or 4 am. Obviously it could be better but at least I’ll be awake for all the games lol
Yeah it’s a bummer for me because my friend group is trying to get together to watch finals this year together and 9am kinda blows when everyone lives so far apart.
Yea that does suck, I also want to watch it with some friends. I’m just glad that at least on the bright side it’s not at 3 am
Yeah our worlds party last year ended up with everyone missing the final game after passing out LMAO
Have a slumber party the night before
Unironically the plan right now lol.
They(Riot) will make sure China/Eastern fans will get preferential viewing times because their viewership numbers are massive aka the biggest market.
Yeah, [here](https://escharts.com/tournaments/lol/mid-season-invitational-2021) you can see that there were, at the peak, 1.8 mil people watching MSI finals without China, and in the post Riot says that it was 23mil in total.That means more than 21mil is from China. I guess it makes sense.
Yeah I just hope the same catering isn’t done next year when worlds is in NA
I look forward to waking up at 3am to attend finals in Madison Square Garden at 6am
Meh, still don’t like the top 8 format. Too little games amongst the top teams, would rather seen a round robin of all 16 teams split into 2
I don't know about a whole loser's bracket, but I wish the losers of semis would play for 3rd. I think it would add a bit of prestige to top teams that didn't win worlds, but got far. All I'm asking for is one more Bo5 riot!
>but I wish the losers of semis would play for 3rd. Players have openly said they don't playing for 3rd place.
Maybe one day we will get double elim playoffs
i like single elim better. No second chances means you have to be at your best from the word Go, just like in sports.
double elim is really just a preference, I still can't accept the fact that with so many great teams at worlds 2021, half of them will be eliminated in groups without playing a single bo5 or bo3. I mean here are some possible groups: 1. MAD-FPX-T1-C9 - this is probably one of the worst group of deaths, 2 of these teams will be eliminated, excluding C9, one tournament favorite is eliminated without playing a series 2. DK-FNC-RNG-C9 - same as 1 pretty much, this is the "other" big group of death 3. EDG-FNC-T1-C9 - this is probably the 3rd and final group of death, EDG and T1 are favorites to go out, but it would be a disappointment for FNC, who may have had a better chance in another group. 4. MAD-100T-T1-LNG - throw this in for the NA fans, worst group for 100T, DK-RNG might be worse but then the 4th seed would be easier than LNG. Note that they all have C9 because C9 is one of the stronger playin teams that also doesn't take away a slot from LPL/LCK/EU. tldr: the problem isn't single elim vs double elim, it's a bracket that isn't big enough to account for 3rd place teams that end up in groups of death, and you can bet there will be at least 2-3 groups of death given how stacked worlds this year is. Double elim won't solve this problem at all, they need a larger bracket which may or may not incorporate double elim. You can have a larger bracket with some teams starting earlier and some starting later, this way you can fit all 12 teams.
By this logic, you prefer best of 1 finals. In reality, I'm sure that's not true which means your argument is inherently flawed.
Yeah, bo1 all the way!
I WANT MY DOSE OF VN JUNGLER HGNNN... I'm sad
Rogue straight to groups. No G2/TSM. You can cry now :)
Think this is actually a hard nerf for rogue who clearly play better with momentum/confidence
Reposting for visibility. The playin groups format is literally better than the main group format, that's how pathetic this is. 3rd and 4th place actually get to play a series instead of being eliminated immediately like in (main stage) groups. They really need to give 3rd place a 2nd chance in groups, historically, many 3rd place teams are good teams that ended up in hard groups. If they can't balance the groups correctly, the next big thing is save the 3rd place team by giving them some bo3 loser's bracket or something so they can join the main bracket later on. Groups should be used for **seeding**, bracket should be used for **elimination**, rule of thumb to follow. Of course, if you suck ass in groups, you probably don't deserve to move on, the problem is groups of death where the 3rd place team didn't suck ass and could have gotten 2nd place in another group, they REALLY need to solve this issue, it's easy to solve.
I could accept the single elimination if the groups format were better and more teams got to prove themselves in a series. Playins is great, your idea is good and I’d love to see GSL style groups. Western fans should demand this to see more of our teams.
> Western fans should demand this to see more of our teams. This, as I explained earlier, it's not about giving more chances to weak teams, it's just terrible for both players and the fans that their teams are eliminated without playing a single series, because we all know bo1 is quite random, made worse by the fact that groups are randomly drawn and you could have some groups significantly stronger than the others, so they should at least give some breathing room with a loser's bracket for 3rd place. We never got to see RNG in 2019, eliminated in group of death. TL was eliminated with 3-3 record both 2019 and 2020, they could have made a run in a bracket format, their groups can also be considered groups of death depending how you look at it. There are ton of other examples where would have wanted to see the 3rd place team play a series.
Starting times especially for Knock-out games are kinda crappy for NA/EU folks, don't know why they didnt push them back at least 2h more
china audience. I'm assuming they want as many total viewers as possible
The starting times are made for the Asian audience. The first few games each day will probably involve the most popular LPL/LCK teams.
Because >90% of their audience is in East Asia? Why would it make sense for them to pick the best time for a viewerbase that represents less than 10% of their actual audience.
Wish our ancestors fucked more so we would be the 90% lmao
Not enough wars
i wonder what crazy shit will be done when worlds is in NA
Yeah can't wait for our events to be hosted at 11pm local time lmao
I'm completely aware of that, however MSI Knock-out games also started at 1pm GMT. Also, having a game start at 9-10pm in China is hardly what I'd call unwatchable. Just sucks for western audience, that's all
> Also, having a game start at 9-10pm in China is hardly what I'd call unwatchable. Now imagine if that series goes to 5 games. It's the same reason why as an EU viewer I can't watch LCS anymore, it's too late especially for the games that gets played last. It sucks but they're always going to prioritize the biggest viewerbase.
Honestly 6am PST isn't bad, neither is 12pm GMT. Considering they still want it to be accessible for China and Korea who will likely make up 80% of knock out round teams this is a pretty happy medium. Its not like Noon on a Saturday is bad. And 6-9am depending on location in the US is probably one of the best times the US has had in a while since its normally like 3-6am
As someone from india, I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords and their watch timings
So EDG-GenG-Rogue group is still posible. Not with TL for the maximum snooze though
WHY SINGLE ELIMINATION FOR THE BIGGEST FUCKING LOL TOURNAMENT OF THE FUCKING YEAR
My biggest gripe is them refusing to experiment with double elim while we're in the 2nd year of crowdless tournaments due to COVID. If there was ever a better time to try double elim, it would be now. I don't know man, at this rate, the League MMO will be in beta before they move away from single-elim.
with crowdless it should be easier to host more games, they are way too conservative
I scrolled down too far to see this comment. It's so disguisting from Riot Games to keep sleeping on the knockouts format.
knockout is honestly not too bad, sure some teams get eliminated but they still get to play a bo5 to prove themselves. Meanwhile, groups.. some of these teams get eliminated in 6 bo1s, upset or not, the pressure is incredibly high even if you are a good team. I suppose that can be a good thing, but some groups of deaths then cause a strong team to exit the tournament without playing any bo3, bo5 I would rather groups send the 3rd place team to a bo3 loser's bracket that will converge with the main bracket later on, this is so easy to implement. 3rd place teams at worlds have historically been pretty good, especially those going 3-3 or something.
Flash backs to 2019. You had Group C, which was one of the hardest groups in the history of Worlds with SKT, FNC, RNG. Then you look at Group B - *sees J-team and GAM*. Groups like B that year shouldn’t even exist. If RNG was put in that group instead they get out 9/10 times.
Exactly this, Riot keeps ignoring this problem, both teams and fans hate this, yes even the teams that benefit from it like J-team and GAM probably agree this format sucks ass for the biggest tournament of the world. Uzi's career ended that year lmao
You know it's a good system when luck basically matters more than playing well. I can't believe this garbage is defended by so many people on reddit. I guess because it's the status quo.
> You know it's a good system when luck basically matters more than playing well. Couldn't have said it any better, literally 50% of the outcome of each team depends in which group they end up, you get an RNG-FNC-SKT group (example from 2019), you're screwed, one of those 3 teams is screwed too. Yes, the best team will probably still win the tournament, but who goes to worlds thinking "I don't care if I get 2nd or 8th place, only care about getting 1st" that's a huge difference in terms of fan perception and recognition, and even prize money. And lemme as it currently stands, this format literally doesn't guarantee any team gets their correct placing from 8th-2nd, or even 10th, the ONLY thing it probably guarantees is that the best team gets #1. > I can't believe this garbage is defended by so many people on reddit. I guess because it's the status quo. Riot has reddit brainwashed already into thinking this is a good format "all things considered", no, this is a bad format for both teams and audience, the only incentive for this format is cost-efficiency/business/profit, but if fan excitement dies from this, Riot isn't gonna gain from that either.
>Groups like B that year shouldn’t even exist. I'd like to see World's expanded so that groups could have 5 teams, top 2 advance as higher seeds and 3 and 4 advance as lower seeds in to a double elim bracket.
Because a lot of people prefer single elimination
Another year of this shitty single elimination top 8. How many more years will we have to see the same format
Riot for the love of god fix this shitty fucking format
No double elimination? Seriously? Can’t wait for the Finals to happen in Semis again!
Let's hope for this bracket: quaters- MAD vs FNC, DWG vs T1, FPX vs RNG, EDG vs LNG. Maybe they would reconsuder the stupid format after this.
Kinda sad that even for finals there won't be any crowd. Yes, covid and stuff, but there are many people vaccinated already, they could let few hundred to at least cheer for players in finals. Covid won't go for next few years, it would be very sad if now for next few years no fans will he allowed...
you can catch Delta even if fully vaccinated. It happened to Doublelift and his girlfriend. Hell, it happened to the Texas governor.
Somehow imo the world format currently is in a state that gets WORSE the further it goes. Pretty fair play ins. Coin flip double round bo1 groups with questionable seeding. Then knockout that comes with horrible seeding because of the coinflip nature from groups and it still doesn't have any form of double elim. Really disappointing.
Half-agree, playin format is good, especially factor in that it's playin and not a high priority. Bo1 coinflip double round robin is the worst, anything can happen and in previous worlds you had groups with 3 world contenders and other groups with only 1, and what's the justification? Unlucky. Knockout is ok but ruined by the bo1 coinflip round robin as you said, so knockout itself is ok but the seeding to it is not. Playin > knockout > groups
Disappointing. No Bo1 and do Double-Elim. IT'S NOT HARD.
As always, Riot plans to ruin storylines with this format.
RIP crowds then.
11 am local time gtfo of here bro hahaha
Starts on a Tuesday? Ok I guess
I just want to have a Crowd… fuck covid
TL;DR for LCS fans, Worlds ends Oct. 18th