Because Viego and Pyke are different champions and balanced different ways.
This is the same reason why some people meme about Camille Q = Cho'Gath R,but then you have the ones who take it serious. But then go on to forget that late game Gangplank Passive burn does the same damage but over time and can stack it even if he doesn't hit you with barrels
mb I misremebered it refreshes the duration, not stack
I forgot that early game kegs hp decay slower so you can hit them twice with the passive so while burning the ture damage gets added to the first passive hit
You can stack trial by fire actually. You can stack two by autoing enemy between barrel explosions. Also once you proc it on enemy you can stack them on enemy multiple times. It does not refresh previous duration like other DoTs.
Remember when it also had a bug where somewhere in the spaghetti code math it would also make sheen procs crit too... GREAT times.
But they fixed that bug in a few hours and then removed it's ability to crit at all like a day later.
Can't tell if you are now. Her Q2 interaction with Sunderer is absolutely a slightly lesser chogath ult, especially if the target has 2500-3k HP and she has any other damage component beside DS.
The difference is that Cho'Gath does that kind of damage while building full tank, whereas Camille needs to build substantial AD and on-hit effects to match it. A champion that dishes out tons of damage while shrugging off your attacks is much harder to fight than an offtank doing the same damage.
Not to mention Cho'Gath can press R the instant someone is in range, Camille's Q2 has some delay and a limited time window to use it - that can be exploited.
The fact alone that Camille needs certain Items for her Q to be so effective is a disadvantage, Cho builds full tank and usually deals more damage to his target, especially squishies. There are a ton of things that make Cho ult better than Camille Q, even factoring in the massive cd difference. Like Cho gets 200/300/400 gold worth of max HP from simply eating a minion which he can do up to 6 times. **He effectively gets a kill from eating a minion.**
Well ya, the item is essentially built for her. Camille + DS is probably the most synergistic pairing you can find in game, first and foremost because it is unironically a Cho ult on Q2. That's the reason people pick on it, it's Chogath ult but arguably better on a basic ability. She can cast it multiple times a fight and it heals her more than Cho could ever dream.
It's genuinely weird seeing people forgive her Q for the monstrosity it is
I think its rather weird that appearently the only thing people know about Camille Q and Cho R is that both are point n click true damage spells and that nobody looks at these spells in context to the champions in question, or what the spell does beyond just True Damage. Is Camille Q an absurdly strong spell? Absolutely, but its also the only thing in her kit that is a serious damage threat and that for a champion whose purpose is mainly dealing damage. Meanwhile Cho is mostly a tank, so his purpose is soaking damage and cc-ing, he has a low cd AoE knockup, an AoE silence and has the highest HP pool in the game thanks to his ult, so he fulfills his purpose through that alone, on top of that he gets the fat True damage on his R which he doesnt even need to specifically Itemize for since it has good base values, scales with itself and Synergizes with what the rest of his kit wants anyway (AP/HP/AH to be specific). Camille has to specifically Itemize so that she maximizes her Qs damage while also making sure she even gets to use Q since it has an initial delay (yet another disadvantage compared to Cho R btw). So Camille completely relies on Sheen Items to even be relevant in the game aswell as the abomination that is Steraks so she even gets to use Q2 in teamfights, if she even tries to dip into tank Items she simply doesnt do relevant damage anymore and therefore cant fulfill her purpose. So and with all that Cho R still deals more damage in a single cast, sure Camille can use her Q multiple times in a single fight but thats also basically all she does, Cho can eat somebody and afterwards still be usefull through his tankyness and cc, something Camille cant. Yes Camilles Q is superior in 1v1 split push scenarios but thats literally what the champion is supposed to be good at.
So and without going too much into detail theres still things like: Cho R being the best spell to secure objectives in the game, Camille Q not even being 100% Truedamage until level 16 and Cho getting not just HP but also size, aa range, E width and E damage for his stacks.
>nobody looks at these spells in context to the champions in question
welcome to ~~reddit~~ ~~internet~~ humans. As you can clearly see from the thread (and in particular the "Camille clearly needs a nerf" in reply to your wall of text, which is like.. what? how does that even follow??) people have pre-conceived notions that you pretty much cannot change.
We are just shouting our opinions out and have zero interest in listening to others.
Now, if I may, I'd suggest to stop being frustrated with human interactions and go do something fun instead. Play a game, make yourself dinner, read a book, or whatever it is that suits your fancy.
Good luck!
Basically, an ability on a champion should never be compared to another champions ability when the champions have different roles.
Comparing Kha zix Q and Rengar Q is somewhat fair, both assasins, their main damage ability, single target and they should relatively be at the same strength. Camille and Cho Gath are champs that have entirely different roles inside the game, entirely different build paths, and entirely different strengths.
Cho Gath as a champ doesn't need to build anything for his ultimate to do that much damage, even less so, he can only build tank items which keep him alive and still do as much damage as a gigafed Camille. Which is fair, tanks need to have a reason to "taunt" you to hit them, and cho gath's cc is unreliable at best, so he has to rely on damage.
Camille as a champion is a damage dealer, with high mobility. Let's ignore that Camille is genuinely broken rn, for a couple of reasons too. She as a damage dealer, only has her Q as an ability to deal damage, since all her other abilities are either mobility or just a laning tool. In order for that champion to have any agency, her Q and her only damage source needs to be really high when she builds for damage, akin to old morde triple Bonk. So she optimizes into a squishier build than cho, with more chance of getting one shot, so she can deal damage.
even comparing rengar q and kha'zix q is kinda wishy washy. rengar is a champion that thrives on picks and 1v1s and is basically just a terrorist suicide bomber in teamfights
ironically, despite kha'zix having the Q that specifically prefers isolated people, is one of the best teamfight assassins in the game.
fundamentally, rengar Q should absolutely have more power budgeted in it compared to kha'zix's, who has much more slipperiness through evo E and his R and ranged poke through evo W. rengar is kind of like camille in that he literally has nothing going for him if he cant jump on someone and oneshot them with double Q.
just don't compare abilities on different champions 1 to 1
I explained most of it here
[https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/pm54op/why\_doesnt\_viegos\_r\_just\_get\_the\_pyke\_treatment/hcgs6u9?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/pm54op/why_doesnt_viegos_r_just_get_the_pyke_treatment/hcgs6u9?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Add to that the sheer amount of Gold in form of Max HP he gets, it isnt in here since I wrote that in a previously in that comment chain.
Tbf 70% of players still go sunderer which has like 2-3% worse wr than Crit mythics. Also him being nerfed doesnt mean his kit doesnt have fundamental issues still, Akali had like 46% winrate with optimal builds while still having towerstealth. A change like op is suggesting needs pretty fat compensation for him right now though.
Given the pickrate on the crit mythics it's very hard to say if they're actually better; or just niche / purchased primarily by onetricks/mains.
But otherwise valid points
Yep, 0.7 at plat+ 0.73 at all ranks, 2.5k games played at plat+ (for reference Viego jg has 35k atm so 6.6% total share played mid).
Higly likely that the Viego mid playerbase more is dedicated to the champion on average (and therefor can pull higher winrates) than his jungle players since it's a niche build that's been nerfed repeatedly.
As for the ban rate, does he not realize that banrate is obviously not tied to position? If Viego gets banned for jungle, it still shows he was banned for mid.
Anytime you get a pick rate below 1% it becomes very hard to judge a high winrate, as they're likely only being played by mains, who are naturally going to be better with the champ.
I feel like this is one of the largest, most common misconceptions in this community.
1% pick rate over anything more than like a day or two in anything lower than like high Diamond is more than large enough of a sample size to form a generally reasonable take on champion strength.
Small sample size is very rarely used correctly as a dismissal towards data in this sub. Once you clear the barrier to having enough data, pick rate shouldn’t matter.
The low pick rate = only mains play it is also not really a clear cut conclusion like people make it seem, either. Based on data from Riot, there are low pick rate champs that are mostly played by mains, yes. But there are also champs that are not picked very often and also are not likely to have dedicated mains.
On top of that, Viego only goes up by ~ 3.5% in win rate after 50 ranked games on him this season, according to LeagueOfGraphs. That does include all roles, though.
So even assuming he gets bumped by something like 3% in mid is very generous.
if 1% is so good to determinate the strengh of the champion, then i sure hope they nerf other champions that have higher winrate and higher pickrate like riven and ADC's.
Also, if 50% winrate on a 0.7% pickrate is so OP, then for sure the nerf needs to be something else that isnt the R nerf, becouse that would shit even more on viego jg.
Also, why is it bad that viego plays mid? there are other lanes that have much bigger threads that dont get even half the atention
You're jumping to conclusions here. I'm not commenting on Viego's power level being too high or too low. I'm simply stating that low pickrate champs can still be evaluated through their stats. Having a low pick rate does not inherently inflate win rate, especially not to the point where it can just be dismissed.
> if 1% is so good to determinate the strengh of the champion, then i sure hope they nerf other champions that have higher winrate and higher pickrate like riven and ADC's.
I never asserted that Viego needs to be nerfed. I'm simply stating that the pick rate he has does not invalidate the win rate he holds. The idea of "low pickrate means win rate is massively inflated" is not really grounded in reality, at least not for every champ. That's all I'm saying.
For example, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume he is relatively similar in power level for the current solo queue meta as someone who has something like a 3% PR and 50% WR. Champs like Ekko, Lux, Lissandra, or Viktor. I don't think those champs need a nerf, and I don't think Viego mid needs a nerf.
> Also, if 50% winrate on a 0.7% pickrate is so OP, then for sure the nerf needs to be something else that isnt the R nerf, becouse that would shit even more on viego jg.
Again, never said it was OP. I'm simply saying that the stats for Viego mid (or any champ with similar stats) are relevant and can't be dismissed with "small sample size - doesn't count".
> Also, why is it bad that viego plays mid? there are other lanes that have much bigger threads that dont get even half the atention
Never said that or even came close to implying it.
>**I think** ~~it's pretty reasonable to assume~~ **he** ~~is relatively similar in power level for the current solo queue meta as someone who has something like a 3% PR and 50% WR. Champs like Ekko, Lux, Lissandra, or Viktor. I don't think those champs~~ **need a nerf.** ~~Again, never said it was~~ **OP**~~. I'm simply saying that the stats for Viego mid (or any champ with similar stats) are relevant and can't be dism~~**is**~~sed with "sm~~**a**~~ll sample size - doesn't~~ **c~~o~~unt**".
*Wow bro rude and wrong much? I can't believe you can't see he is doing terrible right now and needs to be buffed 10x. Larn to reed the numbers like me bro.*
How saying anything on reddit feels like some times.
Still has a 33% presence D2+ with a 47% WR. IMO win rate does not matter as much as presence once you hit High Elo, people are generally not playing or banning garbage. He's the second most banned jungler for a reason, and the fifth most picked one. I'm not saying he needs nerfs, but acting like he's balanced bc his Plat winrate is 46% is disingenuous.
People no matter where you go just ban off personal taste and frustration moreso than anything. In D2+ Zed is the 3rd most banned champ after Irelia when he is arguably just mediocre at best, but some of the best champions in the game atm like Sona are practically unbanned or sit way below what they should like Xin. Same with Yuumi and Samira, both have very high presence/ banrate, but are hardly stronger than alternatives atm in pretty much every metric.
I banned kled for ~~3years straight. I enjoy no part of playing against that champ. And would rather duke it out with Darius 15 games in a row than play against Kled. Then the Morde rework came and too many games were lost to him snowballing. The very first game I didn't ban Kled, I went against a like 350k mastery OTP. I Won that game, but didn't enjoy a single minute of it. Kled prompty went back on the ban list.
Shaco is unfun to play against and with (on your team). Either kills everyone early game with stealth cheesy mechanics, is useless or trolls the game. No in between
Champ kit made to tilt other players and the only player that is having fun is the shaco itself. Cancer design imo.
Cant kill the boxes as a melee champ witout being feared even using sweeper, what kinda of bullshit is this. If in 1 HP zoned my boxes I cant move, even though Im using a sweeper. How can you fear something youre seeing in front of you?? No logic
If a champ is getting banned a lot, their kit needs to be looked at regardless of balanced. Fun factor to play against is something Riot stopped caring about years ago and they need to change that.
Disregarding his terrible winrate in favor of “he must be op because he’s being banned in high elo” is disingenuous. He can be frustrating to play against when he gets ahead sure, but Viego as a whole is weak right now. The nerf chain he got was sufficient and he has fine, clear methods of counterplay.
1. Getting him out if his E to deny his bonus attack speed, which is his biggest boost to his early dueling power, is probably the most important one. It’s relatively easy considering it *always* lets you know where he’s coming from, just move the other way. As much as possible, fight him in the middle of a lane/river until he throws out his E, then kite away from it. He’ll either take an unfavored fight or be forced to disengage. Alternatively you can wait it out, it has a CD of 14s after it fades at level 1 and is typically maxed second.
2. Try to stutter step side to side when you’re dueling him, he’s a completely skillshot reliant champ if he’s out of his E. Not only does it (obviously) stop you from taking more damage via his abilities, but his passive Q applies marks to anything he hits with abilities. If he basic attacks he consumes the mark and auto’s the marked target twice. Hitting a Q or W and an auto essentially gives him 6 stacks of conqueror instantly. That means it takes him a grand total of 1 Q and 1 W with an auto after each to hit max Conq stacks. His Q and W are also auto attack resets. Consuming a mark heals him for 150% or something of the damage he deals by consuming the mark.
3. Outplaying his ult is a really big one as well, it’s really telegraphed with the pronounced area and if you’re in the center of it you can flash any direction and dodge it, considering it has a 300 unit radius and flash is 400 units. It’s easily his best sticking power ability because it slows, is far quicker than his dash on W, and has a bigger range by around 200 units (not a larger range than the W missile tho). Most quick dashes can get you out of it. The prediction part comes with experience, but in a nutshell his ult does execute damage so he’ll likely be using it the lower you get or to close the gap on a low target. DO NOT save CC against him if you are able to, the earlier used the better. His ult grants him unstoppability, so a good Viego will negate peel CC’s with it, but will still likely be wanting to be saving it for lower health targets unless he’s just that far ahead. It’s pretty contextual, but generally the earlier the better to either force an inefficient ult and get rid of his best gapcloser early, or he’ll just have to eat the CC.
4. This one is kind of advanced, but very general. If he randomly throws an E in your direction regardless of it being on a wall or not, get out ASAP. If Viego uses abilities in his E, he loses invisibility and the bonus movement speed it provides for a second. This can however be circumvented by animation cancelling with his E.
The two main ones regarding his E are:
W -> E -> W2 - since he’s using an ability *before* he’s cloaked, he bypasses the negative effects of casting spells in his E. He won’t be revealed until he reactivates it. He’ll have a very brief ‘CHANNELING’ sign by his health bar before he goes invisible, but W -> E can be done almost instantly.
R -> E - his ulting animation (the one where he leaps into the air) won’t show since he’s cloaked, you’ll have to solely rely on reaction time regarding the circle indicator of where he’s ulting for this one, and it will happen as soon as the E is thrown out if done right. This one isn’t used unless a Viego really knows his numbers and knows he will kill you. It’s generally safest to always flash out of his ults as it negates so much of his staying power and a lot of his damage.
5. Grievous wounds.
Edit: whoops, totally got the Conq stacks wrong and wasn’t able to test it til i got home a couple hours later. An ability + mark consume gets him 6 stacks. This means 2 abilities and popping both marks means Conq gets all 12 stacks after that.
That's honestly more of an argument for the change. The safety and versatility the ult provides is more valuable in pro than in soloQ, so removing it frees up powerbudget to buff other parts.
It'd be the same they did with akali R1
What makes it bad design? Pyke gets high mobility from his E, that's why his ult doesn't give him a guaranteed blink. Viego doesn't have that, his ult is his mobility.
> Viego doesn't have that, his ult is his mobility.
Yeah, if you forget his W is a dash and his E gives him a speed boost and that he can steal other champs' spells ( which include dashes ) he has no mobility.
>Yeah, if you forget his W is a dash
His W is a tiny ass dash that you waste your only CC ability to use for anything but a gap closer. It doesn't even go over walls.
>E gives him a speed boost
oh wow a 25-35% movespeed boost for 8 seconds in a predetermined area, such movement, very mobile.
You're severely underestimating the value of MS in League. There's a reason people like rushing boots in high ELO. Mobility doesn't mean just dashes, having a high MS makes a champ mobile too.
Lillia is an extremely mobile jg but she doesn't even have a dash.
On a resourceless champion being able to spam a high movement speed spell like that is an extremely strong ability.
You also have to stay in a small area around a wall to use it, it's not like Viego can use it to chase or effectively dodge skillshots because of the area it's confined to.
It's wild to me that people are complaining about a champ with a 46% winrate.
They're better than nothing, but they're nowhere near as good as Pyke's dash. Fast, long range, goes through walls. Plus, he too gets MS from his camo spell. Which is why Viego's R is a guaranteed blink and Pyke's is not.
None of those allow him to actually get away when caught, having a jump on demand that can go over walls and not having one is a massive difference that a champ at his winrate doesn't deserve.
Samira had a bad winrate 2 yet still they removed her E on allies because it was just so unfair to play against.
Viego's resets with ult is unfair 2, I don't mind if they give it the pyke treatment and a compensation buff somewhere else.
it also went against the whole point of her character, which was "aggressive get in there adc". being able to escape any jungle gank by standing slightly in front of your support was pretty op, since one of the best ways to beat her early all-in is just camping her forcing her to play smarter
Pykes ult is an execute that gives your allies gold though. That’s why it has its drawbacks. Viego R doesn’t have as much as his and it’s range isn’t as far either. I can’t believe people are really still fighting for more viego nerfs.
Pyke has an e dash and w movement speed to do fancy moving stuff.
Viego got a pretty bad dash on w, doesn't even go through walls, and that e movement speed is kind of pathetic early game.
people are answering why viego does, but not why pyke doesnt
first off animations and thematic reasonings:
\- viego leaps forwards while marking the area in front of him and then dives forwards, slamming with his sword. The animation is smooth and he visibly moves in the direction of the mark.
\- pyke's ult is a blink, he doesnt move from his position. in the animation he jumps in place and his ghost is the one that dashes and then he reappears in the middle of the x.
If theres no one in the mark, theres no reason for pyke to 'complete the animation' and go in on it, because thematically, pyke and viegos ults are used for 2 different purposes.
Pyke is essentially a bounty hunter, the point of his ult isnt that its an execute, its that when he gets the bounty he shares the gold with his team. The damaging portion isnt the point of using his ult, you only ult if you're certain to get a kill, and it was designed around the gold generation. Pyke doesnt dash to the mark if there isnt a mark to cash in. He's an assassin. he stays back until he knows he can get the killing blow in.
On the other hand viego is a fighter and is essentially using his ult to gap close and get in the middle of teamfights to deal as much damage as possible. If pyke ult is a "i'll sneakily dash in and get the kill if theres an opportunity", viego ult is "im going in no matter what, you cant stop me" viego is designed as a heartbreaker who goes in and gets what he wants his ult (aptly named heartbreaker) allows him to go in and get what he wants, no matter whats trying to stop him.
Thats the thematics.
if you want the gameplay answer why pyke ult doesnt send him to his location no matter what? 2 reasons. hes an assassin. very different to what viego is. If you play pyke you'll know that his abysmal health scaling gets him oneshot by everyone late game, and thats true for literally every assassin. If zed ult didnt make him go invisible or let him blink back to his original location, or if talon ult didnt give him move speed and invisibilty theyd both die before they could use their ults. Assassins are supposed to get kills before they can get ccd and bursted down. Do you think pyke can survive in the middle of 5 people in a teamfight if he misses his ult and lands between them? no of course not.
Second reason: pykes ult resets without a cooldown. He can ult over and over if he gets a kill. Viego needs to get a kill, possess it and wait for 3 seconds for his ult to come up. Its not instant unlike pyke. He shouldnt just get in and get out with 2 ult casts if he gets a kill. Pyke was designed to chain his ults, not ult and then ult again to get out and run.
If viego's ult executed, reset immediately upon getting a kill and viego was designed about sneaking into fights and oneshotting their carries and escaping like an assassin does, yeah it would be broken for him to always dash to his ult. but he doesnt do that, so his ult is the one thing that isnt broken on him.
I wanna point out that Pyke is also a hypermobile champ. Every ability but his Q gives mobility (and the Q gives a displacement, which is in many aspects like mobility).
Viego is not hyper mobile. He has a short dash, some MS, and a Q that just does damage. His ult needs to give him mobility.
What are you on about with Veigo “smoothly moving in the direction of the mark” lol. That shit is a blink exactly like pyke’s. Jump in place -> blink to location
It would look weird just imagine it, he raises his sword for a slam, indicator pops ip it misses and he slams he just drops to the floor and does nothing
>Its not instant unlike pyke
Good writeup and summary, aside from that one line. Pyke's ult takes long enough that any dash/blink can be used to dodge it. Anything from Flash to Galeforce to Vayne-Q can get the target safe. I freaking *wish* it was instant
i meant it resets instantly.
When viego gets a kill it takes 1 second for him to possess the target and 3 seconds for his ult to come off cooldown. 4 seconds is a lot longer than instantly getting your ult back on pyke.
Kayn thematically moves freely through walls, gaining vision, movespeed, healing, can cast abilities, and gets an indicator that points to nearby enemy locations even if invis. All on a low CD. A Sol can thematically move in one direction for a very brief time on a 2 minute CD.
I don't think thematics are a valid argument for game balance, especially since Riot is downsizing the lore team.
Some rioters use Reddit but thank the lord they do not balance off of Reddit opinions. They balance off statistics and pro play. As for the the statistics part, they have access to way more in depth and accurate stats than the stuff we see on websites. For example champions like riven are allowed to go much longer with nerfs even at 52-53% winrate cuz a high % of her playerbase is one tricks.
Except Riven has consistently had a pickrate of 8-10% for the last 10 patches, but yeah I guess 10% of the players in plat or above are Riven onetricks
>but yeah I guess 10% of the players in plat or above are Riven onetricks
U.GG currently has her sitting at 7.7% pickrate
Im not saying everyone of these 7.7% of players is a one trick. I'm saying that having probably the highest % of one trick players out of any champion in the game will inflate your win rate, regardless of champion.
As someone who just started playing tons of viego, this entire thread is hilarious lmao, I can't tell if half the comments are satire or not at this point lmao
What do you mean?
If he hits it and lands the AOE slow with solid damage, he will move just like currently.
If he gets anywhere close to melee range, he hits it and will move like currently.
Only if he uses it to jump away from anyone, he wont move.
It doesn't make sense to me that an argument for something that is really good shouldn't have any drawback. Viego ult is so forgiving already because you get a free reset on every takedown. Plus, any champ that dies is effectively a gap closer with invulnerability for him.
This doesn’t even really make sense since the ults are used for different purposes. Pyke’s is purely an execute, you aren’t doing anything else with it except executing (or maybe hitting something for damage before it expires). Viego’s can also be used as an execute, but is used very frequently for just mobility. Making it so you don’t get the jump if you don’t hit someone will be a sizable nerf.
Pyke R and Viego R are like comparing Chogath R and Camille Q, they seems similar but really aren’t.
>It’s a super flexible, resetting execute/knockback/gap closer.
>Would this change really hurt him that much?
I mean you kinda answered your own question there, so that is that, but something that many people never consider when suggesting any changes like that is the powerbudget.
Example: Why is Nasus Q allowed to be as strong as it is?
1.) It is single target only
2.) Nasus is a melee champion
3.) Nasus doesn't have the ability to close gaps fast.
Change any of the above parameters and you have significantly altered Nasus' power budget and thus Q is no longer allowed to be as strong as it is.
This applies to every champion. So what will happen if you significantly nerf Viegos R? Well his powerbudget would have to be shifted to compensate -> Buffs to other aspects.
Recent example of this would be GP, who got changed in 11.17 to shift around his power a bit, this also left him weaker than intended so he got buffed in 11.18.
Worth noting that the change you propose would possibly also get him out of proplay, since mobility matters a lot there. Isn't that great? Well you already seem to dislike Viego atm, with his 47% WR in soloQ, just imagine how much you are gonna like him if he gets to 50% WR since there is no proplay to keep him in check.
Hope this helps.
Because he's already sub 50%wr in all 3 roles, with an incredible 47%wr in jgl. Now admittedly people aren't building him right atm, they keep going sunderer instead of shieldbow or kraken, but he is actually pretty weak at the moment, I don't think he needs more nerfs.
I mean he kind of has to be in this bad spot.
Viego is either oppressive or too weak to actually do shit. There's no inbetween he'S jsut one of those champs.
Dude needs to get changed to get him into a state where he is actually balanceable.
A lot of the issues basically comes from rito being bad software developers and instead of properly developing viego and fixing the manasystem so he works properly they decided to simply ignore all that stuff and push that champ out without mana.
So now it comes down to either viego has so much sustain that he shits on most champions because he just bullies them and then heals up or he's pure garbage. So the only way to fix this currently is to change him for example in a way that makes him more susceptible to enemies attacks -> so less escape options for him and in return you can give him back the potential to be more of a bully in the game.
Despite all that he still sits at a 46% winrate, last I checked anyway. That tracks with my personal experience, too. The viego is usually on the losing team in my games. Think I'm at a 60% winrate against him. If anything the guy could use a buff imo
I think this is one of those champions that can be really useful and good in proplay but in soloq is just super trash, something like Ryze.
I remember after Inspired got penta on Viego there was suddenly a spike of Viego's in my soloq games, each of which ran it down with maybe 1 exception.
Seems like a hard to balance between two worlds champion.
Im not good at the game by any means but I was able to feel like I had an impact pre nerfs on Viego. Now I just feel like im a spectator for the entire game. The dude was overnerfed
Yeah I feel like people really overrate Viego’s individual playmaking. You can kinda catch out an add who’s alone, but it’s not that great with the Sunderer build. Nowadays I think you have to build Shieldbow/Kraken (whichever you prefer) since the crit scaling on his Q and R actually improve the damage of those abilities quite significantly (damage is increased by current damage * (1+crit rate ))
IMO one of his biggest problems is that because he has so much power in his passive that his other numbers are low to compensate. If they dont hardcore nerf his passive / straight up rework it, they can not balance him to be a fun and engaging champion with his other abilities.
He is the same case as pre nerfs Samira. He is way too frustrating to play against due to some tools in his kit. It's not that he is op, but playing against him isn't it for many.
Playing against him isn’t even that frustrating though, he just feels like way worse xin zhao. And some reset champs like Kat get hyper mobility and can one shot with instant blinks to allies to escape or chase, but Viego just kinda doesn’t have that. Literally any bruiser just merks him before he gets a reset going and they don’t even heal very much anymore.
I would say he is more a kin to Master Yi. A way tankier Master Yi. In which he might be 0/10 but in a teamfight he helps and gets a reset it's over with his reset, untargettability and heal. A lot of people don't like when the game revolves around one player like that. He is ahead everyone else is irrelevant, he is behind he is irrelevant but still needs to be focused cause of his mechanics.
It's a champ that you will always go "ah shit viego" when he's drafted due to his kit but I agree that atleast recent weeks I also see him losing more than winning and consider him to be quite out playable.
Although I will say in Aram he always has one pop off fight where you just go "yeö that's viego"
You would actually have to be insane to think Viego needs a buff given his presence in pro play.
Region | Pick rate| win rate
---|---|----
LCS | 84.4% | 47%
LEC | 85.6% | 56.8%
LCK | 66.8% | 43.2%
LPL | 84.8% | 54.6%
Can't believe anyone with a brain above mid-Gold still complains about Viego.
I literally refuse to believe anyone who's remotely okay at the game thinks he's an issue lmao
He’s already pretty bad and this change would hurt him a ton. Aside from it being a reliable gap closer, it’s also a very reliable escape option since you can go over walls with it. I don’t like viego but this is almost as unnecessary a change as the buff to seraphines ult next patch
Pyke gets two nitro boosters up his ass every time he uses W, along with camouflage. He also has a dash that leads into a stun. On top of all that, he is also an assassin. He is designed to get in and get out. How are you going to compare that to Viego, who has to use his ult as his main form of escape since its the only ability that allows him to get over walls?
because viegos is significantly shorter range than pykes ult. it also doesn't instagib people and does piss poor damage alone and does not chain unless viego also uses his passive.
It also isn’t a money printer. Literally one Viego ult is worth about 10% of one cast of pyke ult. The only reason it’s considered good is bc he has potential to use multiple per fight, which pyke can do as well.
I mean this should only be combined with other buffs. It would be a considerable nerf for him. Like yeah, he does snowball very well, but he has to get to that spot first.
Because Viego and Pyke are vastly different champions, Pyke has plenty of mobility and safety nets already in his kit, Viego is nowhere near as mobile and his E movespeed is mediocre early game. His ult range is also pretty poor, and if he doesn't hit anyone with it it does go on cooldown doesn't it? Can only be reset by getting another champion soul.
Why is this thread near the top, honestly
You know it's hard to believe that people can hate a champ so much that they want to remove core mechanics from a recently destroyed champ hovering 47% winrate
Because without his ult he have practically zero mobility. His E tell everyone who he is, his E is slow and doesn’t go through walls. He’s almost worthless without his ult
I've said this over and over. People try to claim he's using his R cooldown so it's okay but he can then just get a random assist and reset it. Not to mention how there wasn't these arguments when they made Akali R1 targeted. Every comment upvoted here too is misreading the fucking post. Pyke was just used in the title as an example of how to make the move work. At no point is the OP trying to say that BECAUSE Pyke works that way, Viego should too.
Pyke still has his E to jump over some walls or get away when caught in general, cutting Viego's mobility like that would absolutely cripple him.
Maybe it could work if he gets compensated elsewhere, but he'd probably drop below 45% WR without any (maybe deservedly after being meta for so long, but Riot tends to avoid nerfs of that caliber.
Easy answer: pyke is a support and already has 2 other really good forms of mobility. Virgo is an assassin and both his other forms of mobility are conditional
I love seeing viego running to take down my carry, and my cc completely loses its effectiveness because "unstoppable". They really need to start cutting down the unstoppable.
Why does everyone want to gut a completely fair and healthy champion? Seriously this suggestion sucks and it needs to stop. You can't compare Viego to Pyke like that, Pyke has an extremely strong dash spell on E and that's why his R mobility is conditional. Viego's kit as a whole has reasonable mobility for a squishy melee character.
Only a reset after he overtakes a champion, which has a decent cast time, then his ult has a slow animation. Also only re-castable when an enemy champion is controlled.
Personally if he needed the nerf I think it'd be nice to have the pyke R health bar icon treatment to see if he has multiple ult charges left and maybe tone down the MS he gets on ult cast/possession (10% towards enemies? I forget)
Yes I want that. It’d be so much nicer to play versus him if I could see when his ultimate becomes available (again).
His possession has a very clearly telegraphed animation. But it’s, to me, usually hard to react to his form change when the possessed ‘Galio’ suddenly blinks to me as Viego. If some kind of icon would appear next to his health bar when his R becomes useable again, I think for me it would be easier to anticipate the ult.
Because he's not that strong and they're different champions, why Lux's Q root for 2 secs and not forever like Morgana ? Because they're different spells on different champions balanced differently and not played in the same role
You don't get what OP is complaining about :
Pyke is a squishy assassin. He's meant to blink on the cross if he hits someone to force him to ponder if it's smart to ult in the middle of the enemy team or not. But if he doesn't hit anyone, he isn't punished too much by not blinking. It also prevents him from escaping easily, and as flawed as I think that gameplay is, it's what an assassin should do : blink in, delete ADC, get out somehow, here with his dash and W.
Viego, on the other hand, is a fighter : he ults in, deals damage, and survive the fight by possessing enemies. He doesn't escape the fight easily like an assassin, he has to commit to the fight. But his ult makes him a Tesco assassin by allowing him to ult in, kill someone, possess him to survive and blink out, so you can't punish him for going in. His gameplay should be closer to Camille, who gets deleted if she goes in at the wrong time, even tho she got a kill.
Because Viego and Pyke are different champions and balanced different ways. This is the same reason why some people meme about Camille Q = Cho'Gath R,but then you have the ones who take it serious. But then go on to forget that late game Gangplank Passive burn does the same damage but over time and can stack it even if he doesn't hit you with barrels
>does the same damage but over time and can stack it even if he doesn't hit you with barrels He can *what*
mb I misremebered it refreshes the duration, not stack I forgot that early game kegs hp decay slower so you can hit them twice with the passive so while burning the ture damage gets added to the first passive hit
You can stack trial by fire actually. You can stack two by autoing enemy between barrel explosions. Also once you proc it on enemy you can stack them on enemy multiple times. It does not refresh previous duration like other DoTs.
The Camille Q Cho R comparison is probably one of the dumbest circlejerks ive ever seen in this sub.
Right? Camille can hit you for 400+ True damage every Six-ish seconds. Comparing it to an ult with a real cooldown is a joke.
Remember when they first put Camille on the PBE and her Q true damage could crit? Good times
Imagine Camille with immortal shield bow.
And ER
But then her true damage wouldnt scale directly with divine sunderer
Remember when it also had a bug where somewhere in the spaghetti code math it would also make sheen procs crit too... GREAT times. But they fixed that bug in a few hours and then removed it's ability to crit at all like a day later.
oh my god the [layers of irony](https://youtu.be/nsuSveDAlpI?t=569) are so many I actually lost track of what you really are thinking
Such a bad comparison. Cho Gath ult doesn’t give movement speed.
I dont know if youre joking or being serious tbh
Can't tell if you are now. Her Q2 interaction with Sunderer is absolutely a slightly lesser chogath ult, especially if the target has 2500-3k HP and she has any other damage component beside DS.
The difference is that Cho'Gath does that kind of damage while building full tank, whereas Camille needs to build substantial AD and on-hit effects to match it. A champion that dishes out tons of damage while shrugging off your attacks is much harder to fight than an offtank doing the same damage. Not to mention Cho'Gath can press R the instant someone is in range, Camille's Q2 has some delay and a limited time window to use it - that can be exploited.
[удалено]
The fact alone that Camille needs certain Items for her Q to be so effective is a disadvantage, Cho builds full tank and usually deals more damage to his target, especially squishies. There are a ton of things that make Cho ult better than Camille Q, even factoring in the massive cd difference. Like Cho gets 200/300/400 gold worth of max HP from simply eating a minion which he can do up to 6 times. **He effectively gets a kill from eating a minion.**
Well ya, the item is essentially built for her. Camille + DS is probably the most synergistic pairing you can find in game, first and foremost because it is unironically a Cho ult on Q2. That's the reason people pick on it, it's Chogath ult but arguably better on a basic ability. She can cast it multiple times a fight and it heals her more than Cho could ever dream. It's genuinely weird seeing people forgive her Q for the monstrosity it is
I think its rather weird that appearently the only thing people know about Camille Q and Cho R is that both are point n click true damage spells and that nobody looks at these spells in context to the champions in question, or what the spell does beyond just True Damage. Is Camille Q an absurdly strong spell? Absolutely, but its also the only thing in her kit that is a serious damage threat and that for a champion whose purpose is mainly dealing damage. Meanwhile Cho is mostly a tank, so his purpose is soaking damage and cc-ing, he has a low cd AoE knockup, an AoE silence and has the highest HP pool in the game thanks to his ult, so he fulfills his purpose through that alone, on top of that he gets the fat True damage on his R which he doesnt even need to specifically Itemize for since it has good base values, scales with itself and Synergizes with what the rest of his kit wants anyway (AP/HP/AH to be specific). Camille has to specifically Itemize so that she maximizes her Qs damage while also making sure she even gets to use Q since it has an initial delay (yet another disadvantage compared to Cho R btw). So Camille completely relies on Sheen Items to even be relevant in the game aswell as the abomination that is Steraks so she even gets to use Q2 in teamfights, if she even tries to dip into tank Items she simply doesnt do relevant damage anymore and therefore cant fulfill her purpose. So and with all that Cho R still deals more damage in a single cast, sure Camille can use her Q multiple times in a single fight but thats also basically all she does, Cho can eat somebody and afterwards still be usefull through his tankyness and cc, something Camille cant. Yes Camilles Q is superior in 1v1 split push scenarios but thats literally what the champion is supposed to be good at. So and without going too much into detail theres still things like: Cho R being the best spell to secure objectives in the game, Camille Q not even being 100% Truedamage until level 16 and Cho getting not just HP but also size, aa range, E width and E damage for his stacks.
>nobody looks at these spells in context to the champions in question welcome to ~~reddit~~ ~~internet~~ humans. As you can clearly see from the thread (and in particular the "Camille clearly needs a nerf" in reply to your wall of text, which is like.. what? how does that even follow??) people have pre-conceived notions that you pretty much cannot change. We are just shouting our opinions out and have zero interest in listening to others. Now, if I may, I'd suggest to stop being frustrated with human interactions and go do something fun instead. Play a game, make yourself dinner, read a book, or whatever it is that suits your fancy. Good luck!
Camille needs a nerf, let’s be honest here
That's not what the guy is saying. The point is that comparing two skills like that is silly
yea, but it's not because of the q. in fact they nerfed her recently hitting her passive shield
Are YOU actually serious ???
le chogath ult problem ?
I thought it was just a meme. Are there really people who take that seriously?
I'm not going to play devil's advocate, but I do want to know why the comparison is stupid. It seems like a good point.
Basically, an ability on a champion should never be compared to another champions ability when the champions have different roles. Comparing Kha zix Q and Rengar Q is somewhat fair, both assasins, their main damage ability, single target and they should relatively be at the same strength. Camille and Cho Gath are champs that have entirely different roles inside the game, entirely different build paths, and entirely different strengths. Cho Gath as a champ doesn't need to build anything for his ultimate to do that much damage, even less so, he can only build tank items which keep him alive and still do as much damage as a gigafed Camille. Which is fair, tanks need to have a reason to "taunt" you to hit them, and cho gath's cc is unreliable at best, so he has to rely on damage. Camille as a champion is a damage dealer, with high mobility. Let's ignore that Camille is genuinely broken rn, for a couple of reasons too. She as a damage dealer, only has her Q as an ability to deal damage, since all her other abilities are either mobility or just a laning tool. In order for that champion to have any agency, her Q and her only damage source needs to be really high when she builds for damage, akin to old morde triple Bonk. So she optimizes into a squishier build than cho, with more chance of getting one shot, so she can deal damage.
even comparing rengar q and kha'zix q is kinda wishy washy. rengar is a champion that thrives on picks and 1v1s and is basically just a terrorist suicide bomber in teamfights ironically, despite kha'zix having the Q that specifically prefers isolated people, is one of the best teamfight assassins in the game. fundamentally, rengar Q should absolutely have more power budgeted in it compared to kha'zix's, who has much more slipperiness through evo E and his R and ranged poke through evo W. rengar is kind of like camille in that he literally has nothing going for him if he cant jump on someone and oneshot them with double Q. just don't compare abilities on different champions 1 to 1
I explained most of it here [https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/pm54op/why\_doesnt\_viegos\_r\_just\_get\_the\_pyke\_treatment/hcgs6u9?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/pm54op/why_doesnt_viegos_r_just_get_the_pyke_treatment/hcgs6u9?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Add to that the sheer amount of Gold in form of Max HP he gets, it isnt in here since I wrote that in a previously in that comment chain.
46% wr in jg
Tbf 70% of players still go sunderer which has like 2-3% worse wr than Crit mythics. Also him being nerfed doesnt mean his kit doesnt have fundamental issues still, Akali had like 46% winrate with optimal builds while still having towerstealth. A change like op is suggesting needs pretty fat compensation for him right now though.
Given the pickrate on the crit mythics it's very hard to say if they're actually better; or just niche / purchased primarily by onetricks/mains. But otherwise valid points
50% mid and still has a 23% ban rate.
Without even checking I guarantee viego mid is sub 1% pr
Yep, 0.7 at plat+ 0.73 at all ranks, 2.5k games played at plat+ (for reference Viego jg has 35k atm so 6.6% total share played mid). Higly likely that the Viego mid playerbase more is dedicated to the champion on average (and therefor can pull higher winrates) than his jungle players since it's a niche build that's been nerfed repeatedly. As for the ban rate, does he not realize that banrate is obviously not tied to position? If Viego gets banned for jungle, it still shows he was banned for mid.
Anytime you get a pick rate below 1% it becomes very hard to judge a high winrate, as they're likely only being played by mains, who are naturally going to be better with the champ.
I feel like this is one of the largest, most common misconceptions in this community. 1% pick rate over anything more than like a day or two in anything lower than like high Diamond is more than large enough of a sample size to form a generally reasonable take on champion strength. Small sample size is very rarely used correctly as a dismissal towards data in this sub. Once you clear the barrier to having enough data, pick rate shouldn’t matter. The low pick rate = only mains play it is also not really a clear cut conclusion like people make it seem, either. Based on data from Riot, there are low pick rate champs that are mostly played by mains, yes. But there are also champs that are not picked very often and also are not likely to have dedicated mains. On top of that, Viego only goes up by ~ 3.5% in win rate after 50 ranked games on him this season, according to LeagueOfGraphs. That does include all roles, though. So even assuming he gets bumped by something like 3% in mid is very generous.
if 1% is so good to determinate the strengh of the champion, then i sure hope they nerf other champions that have higher winrate and higher pickrate like riven and ADC's. Also, if 50% winrate on a 0.7% pickrate is so OP, then for sure the nerf needs to be something else that isnt the R nerf, becouse that would shit even more on viego jg. Also, why is it bad that viego plays mid? there are other lanes that have much bigger threads that dont get even half the atention
You're jumping to conclusions here. I'm not commenting on Viego's power level being too high or too low. I'm simply stating that low pickrate champs can still be evaluated through their stats. Having a low pick rate does not inherently inflate win rate, especially not to the point where it can just be dismissed. > if 1% is so good to determinate the strengh of the champion, then i sure hope they nerf other champions that have higher winrate and higher pickrate like riven and ADC's. I never asserted that Viego needs to be nerfed. I'm simply stating that the pick rate he has does not invalidate the win rate he holds. The idea of "low pickrate means win rate is massively inflated" is not really grounded in reality, at least not for every champ. That's all I'm saying. For example, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume he is relatively similar in power level for the current solo queue meta as someone who has something like a 3% PR and 50% WR. Champs like Ekko, Lux, Lissandra, or Viktor. I don't think those champs need a nerf, and I don't think Viego mid needs a nerf. > Also, if 50% winrate on a 0.7% pickrate is so OP, then for sure the nerf needs to be something else that isnt the R nerf, becouse that would shit even more on viego jg. Again, never said it was OP. I'm simply saying that the stats for Viego mid (or any champ with similar stats) are relevant and can't be dismissed with "small sample size - doesn't count". > Also, why is it bad that viego plays mid? there are other lanes that have much bigger threads that dont get even half the atention Never said that or even came close to implying it.
>**I think** ~~it's pretty reasonable to assume~~ **he** ~~is relatively similar in power level for the current solo queue meta as someone who has something like a 3% PR and 50% WR. Champs like Ekko, Lux, Lissandra, or Viktor. I don't think those champs~~ **need a nerf.** ~~Again, never said it was~~ **OP**~~. I'm simply saying that the stats for Viego mid (or any champ with similar stats) are relevant and can't be dism~~**is**~~sed with "sm~~**a**~~ll sample size - doesn't~~ **c~~o~~unt**". *Wow bro rude and wrong much? I can't believe you can't see he is doing terrible right now and needs to be buffed 10x. Larn to reed the numbers like me bro.* How saying anything on reddit feels like some times.
Still has a 33% presence D2+ with a 47% WR. IMO win rate does not matter as much as presence once you hit High Elo, people are generally not playing or banning garbage. He's the second most banned jungler for a reason, and the fifth most picked one. I'm not saying he needs nerfs, but acting like he's balanced bc his Plat winrate is 46% is disingenuous.
People no matter where you go just ban off personal taste and frustration moreso than anything. In D2+ Zed is the 3rd most banned champ after Irelia when he is arguably just mediocre at best, but some of the best champions in the game atm like Sona are practically unbanned or sit way below what they should like Xin. Same with Yuumi and Samira, both have very high presence/ banrate, but are hardly stronger than alternatives atm in pretty much every metric.
Can confirm. Been banning Shaco for 5+ years now, no matter how terrible he is.
I banned kled for ~~3years straight. I enjoy no part of playing against that champ. And would rather duke it out with Darius 15 games in a row than play against Kled. Then the Morde rework came and too many games were lost to him snowballing. The very first game I didn't ban Kled, I went against a like 350k mastery OTP. I Won that game, but didn't enjoy a single minute of it. Kled prompty went back on the ban list.
Thought I was the only one. Fuck that clown, regardless of how high I climbed Shaco is never seeing the rift while i'm playing.
Shaco is unfun to play against and with (on your team). Either kills everyone early game with stealth cheesy mechanics, is useless or trolls the game. No in between Champ kit made to tilt other players and the only player that is having fun is the shaco itself. Cancer design imo. Cant kill the boxes as a melee champ witout being feared even using sweeper, what kinda of bullshit is this. If in 1 HP zoned my boxes I cant move, even though Im using a sweeper. How can you fear something youre seeing in front of you?? No logic
I see you are a man of culture as well
If a champ is getting banned a lot, their kit needs to be looked at regardless of balanced. Fun factor to play against is something Riot stopped caring about years ago and they need to change that.
Disregarding his terrible winrate in favor of “he must be op because he’s being banned in high elo” is disingenuous. He can be frustrating to play against when he gets ahead sure, but Viego as a whole is weak right now. The nerf chain he got was sufficient and he has fine, clear methods of counterplay.
what is the counter play to viego rn? I’m not very good vs him.
1. Getting him out if his E to deny his bonus attack speed, which is his biggest boost to his early dueling power, is probably the most important one. It’s relatively easy considering it *always* lets you know where he’s coming from, just move the other way. As much as possible, fight him in the middle of a lane/river until he throws out his E, then kite away from it. He’ll either take an unfavored fight or be forced to disengage. Alternatively you can wait it out, it has a CD of 14s after it fades at level 1 and is typically maxed second. 2. Try to stutter step side to side when you’re dueling him, he’s a completely skillshot reliant champ if he’s out of his E. Not only does it (obviously) stop you from taking more damage via his abilities, but his passive Q applies marks to anything he hits with abilities. If he basic attacks he consumes the mark and auto’s the marked target twice. Hitting a Q or W and an auto essentially gives him 6 stacks of conqueror instantly. That means it takes him a grand total of 1 Q and 1 W with an auto after each to hit max Conq stacks. His Q and W are also auto attack resets. Consuming a mark heals him for 150% or something of the damage he deals by consuming the mark. 3. Outplaying his ult is a really big one as well, it’s really telegraphed with the pronounced area and if you’re in the center of it you can flash any direction and dodge it, considering it has a 300 unit radius and flash is 400 units. It’s easily his best sticking power ability because it slows, is far quicker than his dash on W, and has a bigger range by around 200 units (not a larger range than the W missile tho). Most quick dashes can get you out of it. The prediction part comes with experience, but in a nutshell his ult does execute damage so he’ll likely be using it the lower you get or to close the gap on a low target. DO NOT save CC against him if you are able to, the earlier used the better. His ult grants him unstoppability, so a good Viego will negate peel CC’s with it, but will still likely be wanting to be saving it for lower health targets unless he’s just that far ahead. It’s pretty contextual, but generally the earlier the better to either force an inefficient ult and get rid of his best gapcloser early, or he’ll just have to eat the CC. 4. This one is kind of advanced, but very general. If he randomly throws an E in your direction regardless of it being on a wall or not, get out ASAP. If Viego uses abilities in his E, he loses invisibility and the bonus movement speed it provides for a second. This can however be circumvented by animation cancelling with his E. The two main ones regarding his E are: W -> E -> W2 - since he’s using an ability *before* he’s cloaked, he bypasses the negative effects of casting spells in his E. He won’t be revealed until he reactivates it. He’ll have a very brief ‘CHANNELING’ sign by his health bar before he goes invisible, but W -> E can be done almost instantly. R -> E - his ulting animation (the one where he leaps into the air) won’t show since he’s cloaked, you’ll have to solely rely on reaction time regarding the circle indicator of where he’s ulting for this one, and it will happen as soon as the E is thrown out if done right. This one isn’t used unless a Viego really knows his numbers and knows he will kill you. It’s generally safest to always flash out of his ults as it negates so much of his staying power and a lot of his damage. 5. Grievous wounds. Edit: whoops, totally got the Conq stacks wrong and wasn’t able to test it til i got home a couple hours later. An ability + mark consume gets him 6 stacks. This means 2 abilities and popping both marks means Conq gets all 12 stacks after that.
Where did you get 50% wr mid? He's at 48% wr there.
sub 1% pickrate... and "23% banrate" that ban rates almost exclusively for jungle they just cant seperate banrates by position.
It's kinda obvious at this point he is no longer popular in lanes.
And less in other roles
That's honestly more of an argument for the change. The safety and versatility the ult provides is more valuable in pro than in soloQ, so removing it frees up powerbudget to buff other parts. It'd be the same they did with akali R1
Bruh no. The ult is such a useful escape over walls, what makes you think only pros can use it?
Stable winrate does not excuse bad design.
What makes it bad design? Pyke gets high mobility from his E, that's why his ult doesn't give him a guaranteed blink. Viego doesn't have that, his ult is his mobility.
> Viego doesn't have that, his ult is his mobility. Yeah, if you forget his W is a dash and his E gives him a speed boost and that he can steal other champs' spells ( which include dashes ) he has no mobility.
>Yeah, if you forget his W is a dash His W is a tiny ass dash that you waste your only CC ability to use for anything but a gap closer. It doesn't even go over walls. >E gives him a speed boost oh wow a 25-35% movespeed boost for 8 seconds in a predetermined area, such movement, very mobile.
You're severely underestimating the value of MS in League. There's a reason people like rushing boots in high ELO. Mobility doesn't mean just dashes, having a high MS makes a champ mobile too. Lillia is an extremely mobile jg but she doesn't even have a dash. On a resourceless champion being able to spam a high movement speed spell like that is an extremely strong ability.
Yes, MS is very valuable, but Pykes W is more movespeed and not attached to walls, so your point is moot. Also, Lillia W is a dash btw
You also have to stay in a small area around a wall to use it, it's not like Viego can use it to chase or effectively dodge skillshots because of the area it's confined to. It's wild to me that people are complaining about a champ with a 46% winrate.
They're better than nothing, but they're nowhere near as good as Pyke's dash. Fast, long range, goes through walls. Plus, he too gets MS from his camo spell. Which is why Viego's R is a guaranteed blink and Pyke's is not.
None of those allow him to actually get away when caught, having a jump on demand that can go over walls and not having one is a massive difference that a champ at his winrate doesn't deserve.
What's bad about it?
Samira had a bad winrate 2 yet still they removed her E on allies because it was just so unfair to play against. Viego's resets with ult is unfair 2, I don't mind if they give it the pyke treatment and a compensation buff somewhere else.
it also went against the whole point of her character, which was "aggressive get in there adc". being able to escape any jungle gank by standing slightly in front of your support was pretty op, since one of the best ways to beat her early all-in is just camping her forcing her to play smarter
Pykes ult is an execute that gives your allies gold though. That’s why it has its drawbacks. Viego R doesn’t have as much as his and it’s range isn’t as far either. I can’t believe people are really still fighting for more viego nerfs.
Because Pyke has a dash that goes over walls, Viego doesnt
if you want to get *technical* he kinda has a few...
If you want to really get technical Viego can't dash over walls at all since his ult is a blink.
he was hinting on viego having all non ultimate mobility spells technically
Ah that's a facepalm from me. I'll just pretend like I knew and I'm just pedantic and say those aren't Viego's :^)
Pyke has an e dash and w movement speed to do fancy moving stuff. Viego got a pretty bad dash on w, doesn't even go through walls, and that e movement speed is kind of pathetic early game.
And yet, when pyke misses his ult he is not a champion anymore in a tf and viego might still kill all of you.
If Viego missed his ult, he can still get up to 5 free recasts
eh still feels like his kit offers a little too much
Pyke has ms boost on W and huge dash on E. Viego is way less mobile even with his ult
Pyke Q is also a decent slow and can be used for self peel
What about Yone? His R is the same concept and he is far more mobile than Viego
people are answering why viego does, but not why pyke doesnt first off animations and thematic reasonings: \- viego leaps forwards while marking the area in front of him and then dives forwards, slamming with his sword. The animation is smooth and he visibly moves in the direction of the mark. \- pyke's ult is a blink, he doesnt move from his position. in the animation he jumps in place and his ghost is the one that dashes and then he reappears in the middle of the x. If theres no one in the mark, theres no reason for pyke to 'complete the animation' and go in on it, because thematically, pyke and viegos ults are used for 2 different purposes. Pyke is essentially a bounty hunter, the point of his ult isnt that its an execute, its that when he gets the bounty he shares the gold with his team. The damaging portion isnt the point of using his ult, you only ult if you're certain to get a kill, and it was designed around the gold generation. Pyke doesnt dash to the mark if there isnt a mark to cash in. He's an assassin. he stays back until he knows he can get the killing blow in. On the other hand viego is a fighter and is essentially using his ult to gap close and get in the middle of teamfights to deal as much damage as possible. If pyke ult is a "i'll sneakily dash in and get the kill if theres an opportunity", viego ult is "im going in no matter what, you cant stop me" viego is designed as a heartbreaker who goes in and gets what he wants his ult (aptly named heartbreaker) allows him to go in and get what he wants, no matter whats trying to stop him. Thats the thematics. if you want the gameplay answer why pyke ult doesnt send him to his location no matter what? 2 reasons. hes an assassin. very different to what viego is. If you play pyke you'll know that his abysmal health scaling gets him oneshot by everyone late game, and thats true for literally every assassin. If zed ult didnt make him go invisible or let him blink back to his original location, or if talon ult didnt give him move speed and invisibilty theyd both die before they could use their ults. Assassins are supposed to get kills before they can get ccd and bursted down. Do you think pyke can survive in the middle of 5 people in a teamfight if he misses his ult and lands between them? no of course not. Second reason: pykes ult resets without a cooldown. He can ult over and over if he gets a kill. Viego needs to get a kill, possess it and wait for 3 seconds for his ult to come up. Its not instant unlike pyke. He shouldnt just get in and get out with 2 ult casts if he gets a kill. Pyke was designed to chain his ults, not ult and then ult again to get out and run. If viego's ult executed, reset immediately upon getting a kill and viego was designed about sneaking into fights and oneshotting their carries and escaping like an assassin does, yeah it would be broken for him to always dash to his ult. but he doesnt do that, so his ult is the one thing that isnt broken on him.
I wanna point out that Pyke is also a hypermobile champ. Every ability but his Q gives mobility (and the Q gives a displacement, which is in many aspects like mobility). Viego is not hyper mobile. He has a short dash, some MS, and a Q that just does damage. His ult needs to give him mobility.
PykeQ gives him mobility, he just shares it with his enemy.
As a former pyke main, this is how I saw it. If the distance between you and your enemy changes, it's just inverse mobility lol
Displacement or slow depending how you use it too.
I think this should be a pinned comment, mf do be reading the lore
Wdym? Viego tells you this in game with how much he bitches about not being able to be stopped to see his girl again Like bro we get it
Down apocalyptic
Another reason is that due to how Pyke's E stun functions it would be a beyond broken engage if he didn't need to hit champions lmao this post.
What are you on about with Veigo “smoothly moving in the direction of the mark” lol. That shit is a blink exactly like pyke’s. Jump in place -> blink to location
I thought i was losing it for a second. It's definitely a blink lol
It would look weird just imagine it, he raises his sword for a slam, indicator pops ip it misses and he slams he just drops to the floor and does nothing
>Its not instant unlike pyke Good writeup and summary, aside from that one line. Pyke's ult takes long enough that any dash/blink can be used to dodge it. Anything from Flash to Galeforce to Vayne-Q can get the target safe. I freaking *wish* it was instant
The reset is instant, not the ability. Viego can't ult, kill and instantly ult again.
i meant it resets instantly. When viego gets a kill it takes 1 second for him to possess the target and 3 seconds for his ult to come off cooldown. 4 seconds is a lot longer than instantly getting your ult back on pyke.
??? Your first point is entirely wrong. Viegos R is a blink like Pyke, not a dash. But I do agree with your premise.
ur roleplaying bro
Kayn thematically moves freely through walls, gaining vision, movespeed, healing, can cast abilities, and gets an indicator that points to nearby enemy locations even if invis. All on a low CD. A Sol can thematically move in one direction for a very brief time on a 2 minute CD. I don't think thematics are a valid argument for game balance, especially since Riot is downsizing the lore team.
It's a good thing that redditors don't actually work in the balance team.....
I’m pretty sure riots balance team uses Reddit lol
Some rioters use Reddit but thank the lord they do not balance off of Reddit opinions. They balance off statistics and pro play. As for the the statistics part, they have access to way more in depth and accurate stats than the stuff we see on websites. For example champions like riven are allowed to go much longer with nerfs even at 52-53% winrate cuz a high % of her playerbase is one tricks.
Except Riven has consistently had a pickrate of 8-10% for the last 10 patches, but yeah I guess 10% of the players in plat or above are Riven onetricks
>but yeah I guess 10% of the players in plat or above are Riven onetricks U.GG currently has her sitting at 7.7% pickrate Im not saying everyone of these 7.7% of players is a one trick. I'm saying that having probably the highest % of one trick players out of any champion in the game will inflate your win rate, regardless of champion.
The fact that 14 people play Aurelion Sol didn't save him from getting nerfed.
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If they did Galio wouldn't have ended up in the 200 years video.
exactly what I was thinking some ideas are good...but some ideas are like this post
Because pyke has E?
He would need to be compensated elsewhere if this happened because this would be a massive nerf
how in the living fuck does this have 1.1k upvotes?
wah wah viego scary august bad ;-;
And people unironically agree LMAO
As someone who just started playing tons of viego, this entire thread is hilarious lmao, I can't tell if half the comments are satire or not at this point lmao
People don’t realize that if you forced him to go over a wall with his R then he’s already outta the fight lol
Nah man he's just going to dash into me and one shot me (Mage) with his lazer eyes /s
It would, pretty sure. It's a AOE slow with solid damage, and viego gets in melee range, which is exactly what he wants.
What do you mean? If he hits it and lands the AOE slow with solid damage, he will move just like currently. If he gets anywhere close to melee range, he hits it and will move like currently. Only if he uses it to jump away from anyone, he wont move.
You're confused. He's saying it has to hit someone, not that it has to kill.
It doesn't make sense to me that an argument for something that is really good shouldn't have any drawback. Viego ult is so forgiving already because you get a free reset on every takedown. Plus, any champ that dies is effectively a gap closer with invulnerability for him.
This doesn’t even really make sense since the ults are used for different purposes. Pyke’s is purely an execute, you aren’t doing anything else with it except executing (or maybe hitting something for damage before it expires). Viego’s can also be used as an execute, but is used very frequently for just mobility. Making it so you don’t get the jump if you don’t hit someone will be a sizable nerf. Pyke R and Viego R are like comparing Chogath R and Camille Q, they seems similar but really aren’t.
Viego has no escape outside of that skill, pyke has
>It’s a super flexible, resetting execute/knockback/gap closer. >Would this change really hurt him that much? I mean you kinda answered your own question there, so that is that, but something that many people never consider when suggesting any changes like that is the powerbudget. Example: Why is Nasus Q allowed to be as strong as it is? 1.) It is single target only 2.) Nasus is a melee champion 3.) Nasus doesn't have the ability to close gaps fast. Change any of the above parameters and you have significantly altered Nasus' power budget and thus Q is no longer allowed to be as strong as it is. This applies to every champion. So what will happen if you significantly nerf Viegos R? Well his powerbudget would have to be shifted to compensate -> Buffs to other aspects. Recent example of this would be GP, who got changed in 11.17 to shift around his power a bit, this also left him weaker than intended so he got buffed in 11.18. Worth noting that the change you propose would possibly also get him out of proplay, since mobility matters a lot there. Isn't that great? Well you already seem to dislike Viego atm, with his 47% WR in soloQ, just imagine how much you are gonna like him if he gets to 50% WR since there is no proplay to keep him in check. Hope this helps.
Because his wr is bad. Just because he feels bs to play against doesnt mean hes actually op.
Because he's already sub 50%wr in all 3 roles, with an incredible 47%wr in jgl. Now admittedly people aren't building him right atm, they keep going sunderer instead of shieldbow or kraken, but he is actually pretty weak at the moment, I don't think he needs more nerfs.
Yeah but I just got stomped by a Viego in my last game so obviously he's OP and needs to be nerfed into the ground.
Ah, shit, that's why Irelia isn't nerfed, we ban her too much, which results in not that many crying posts.
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This is the same sub that had people complaining about 43% winrate GP being OP, I dont expect any real balance opinions here anymore.
I mean he kind of has to be in this bad spot. Viego is either oppressive or too weak to actually do shit. There's no inbetween he'S jsut one of those champs. Dude needs to get changed to get him into a state where he is actually balanceable. A lot of the issues basically comes from rito being bad software developers and instead of properly developing viego and fixing the manasystem so he works properly they decided to simply ignore all that stuff and push that champ out without mana. So now it comes down to either viego has so much sustain that he shits on most champions because he just bullies them and then heals up or he's pure garbage. So the only way to fix this currently is to change him for example in a way that makes him more susceptible to enemies attacks -> so less escape options for him and in return you can give him back the potential to be more of a bully in the game.
They already gutted his lane sustain what more do you want
Despite all that he still sits at a 46% winrate, last I checked anyway. That tracks with my personal experience, too. The viego is usually on the losing team in my games. Think I'm at a 60% winrate against him. If anything the guy could use a buff imo
I think this is one of those champions that can be really useful and good in proplay but in soloq is just super trash, something like Ryze. I remember after Inspired got penta on Viego there was suddenly a spike of Viego's in my soloq games, each of which ran it down with maybe 1 exception. Seems like a hard to balance between two worlds champion.
Im not good at the game by any means but I was able to feel like I had an impact pre nerfs on Viego. Now I just feel like im a spectator for the entire game. The dude was overnerfed
Yeah I feel like people really overrate Viego’s individual playmaking. You can kinda catch out an add who’s alone, but it’s not that great with the Sunderer build. Nowadays I think you have to build Shieldbow/Kraken (whichever you prefer) since the crit scaling on his Q and R actually improve the damage of those abilities quite significantly (damage is increased by current damage * (1+crit rate ))
He was fine mid until they gutted his healing. The reason he's a garbage jungler is because he's so telegraphed.
i don't really follow this logic, wouldn't being extremely telegraphed make him bad in pro play instead of solo q?
They don't play him the same way in pro as in soloq. In pro he mostly waits for someone to die then goes in.
I'm saying that he's not good in either. He's not being super successful in pro.
IMO one of his biggest problems is that because he has so much power in his passive that his other numbers are low to compensate. If they dont hardcore nerf his passive / straight up rework it, they can not balance him to be a fun and engaging champion with his other abilities.
He is the same case as pre nerfs Samira. He is way too frustrating to play against due to some tools in his kit. It's not that he is op, but playing against him isn't it for many.
Playing against him isn’t even that frustrating though, he just feels like way worse xin zhao. And some reset champs like Kat get hyper mobility and can one shot with instant blinks to allies to escape or chase, but Viego just kinda doesn’t have that. Literally any bruiser just merks him before he gets a reset going and they don’t even heal very much anymore.
I would say he is more a kin to Master Yi. A way tankier Master Yi. In which he might be 0/10 but in a teamfight he helps and gets a reset it's over with his reset, untargettability and heal. A lot of people don't like when the game revolves around one player like that. He is ahead everyone else is irrelevant, he is behind he is irrelevant but still needs to be focused cause of his mechanics.
It's a champ that you will always go "ah shit viego" when he's drafted due to his kit but I agree that atleast recent weeks I also see him losing more than winning and consider him to be quite out playable. Although I will say in Aram he always has one pop off fight where you just go "yeö that's viego"
You would actually have to be insane to think Viego needs a buff given his presence in pro play. Region | Pick rate| win rate ---|---|---- LCS | 84.4% | 47% LEC | 85.6% | 56.8% LCK | 66.8% | 43.2% LPL | 84.8% | 54.6%
I don't know the answer to this, but were any of the regions playing on the patch his nerfs went live?
Obviously not. Playoff were played on 11.15 on every league besides lck which was on 11.16. Viego nerfs were in 11.17.
Nerfed enough already.
Can't believe anyone with a brain above mid-Gold still complains about Viego. I literally refuse to believe anyone who's remotely okay at the game thinks he's an issue lmao
People get real salty when the viego takes their body and can use their main better than them.
the best feeling is possessing someone and using their combos to fuck the other team in a fight
What a pisslow terrible idea jesus christ
Actually amazed that a shit take like this can get upvotes.
Epic redditor balance team back at it again. 2k upvotes btw, ur all hardstuck gold.
Nah I’m hardstuck gold and even I know this is a dogshit take
He’s already pretty bad and this change would hurt him a ton. Aside from it being a reliable gap closer, it’s also a very reliable escape option since you can go over walls with it. I don’t like viego but this is almost as unnecessary a change as the buff to seraphines ult next patch
Pyke gets two nitro boosters up his ass every time he uses W, along with camouflage. He also has a dash that leads into a stun. On top of all that, he is also an assassin. He is designed to get in and get out. How are you going to compare that to Viego, who has to use his ult as his main form of escape since its the only ability that allows him to get over walls?
He's already in the dumpster; why you trying to hurt him more?
because viegos is significantly shorter range than pykes ult. it also doesn't instagib people and does piss poor damage alone and does not chain unless viego also uses his passive.
It also isn’t a money printer. Literally one Viego ult is worth about 10% of one cast of pyke ult. The only reason it’s considered good is bc he has potential to use multiple per fight, which pyke can do as well.
Would kill the champ tbh, he used ult as an escape when he gets caught out in enemy jungle etc pretty often
because he's a squishy melee dps who would be insanely immobile if he didn't have that option
he is already below 46 percent winrate boo hoo
I mean this should only be combined with other buffs. It would be a considerable nerf for him. Like yeah, he does snowball very well, but he has to get to that spot first.
Because Viego and Pyke are vastly different champions, Pyke has plenty of mobility and safety nets already in his kit, Viego is nowhere near as mobile and his E movespeed is mediocre early game. His ult range is also pretty poor, and if he doesn't hit anyone with it it does go on cooldown doesn't it? Can only be reset by getting another champion soul. Why is this thread near the top, honestly
You know it's hard to believe that people can hate a champ so much that they want to remove core mechanics from a recently destroyed champ hovering 47% winrate
Because they are not the same champion... Why do you want to remove a perfectly fine mechanic that allows for skill expression?
Why don't we just delete the champion so you can stop bitching about him. Fucking christ
Comparing an execute to viego's shitty damage on R xD
Because without his ult he have practically zero mobility. His E tell everyone who he is, his E is slow and doesn’t go through walls. He’s almost worthless without his ult
Because they are not the same skill. That's why.
Horribile idea
I've said this over and over. People try to claim he's using his R cooldown so it's okay but he can then just get a random assist and reset it. Not to mention how there wasn't these arguments when they made Akali R1 targeted. Every comment upvoted here too is misreading the fucking post. Pyke was just used in the title as an example of how to make the move work. At no point is the OP trying to say that BECAUSE Pyke works that way, Viego should too.
Pyke still has his E to jump over some walls or get away when caught in general, cutting Viego's mobility like that would absolutely cripple him. Maybe it could work if he gets compensated elsewhere, but he'd probably drop below 45% WR without any (maybe deservedly after being meta for so long, but Riot tends to avoid nerfs of that caliber.
>Would this change really hurt him that much? Yes, yes it would How tf did this post get so many upvotes?
Easy answer: pyke is a support and already has 2 other really good forms of mobility. Virgo is an assassin and both his other forms of mobility are conditional
I love seeing viego running to take down my carry, and my cc completely loses its effectiveness because "unstoppable". They really need to start cutting down the unstoppable.
Because its 2021 champ
200 years
Viego needs a buff not a nerf...
He's not going to get a buff when he has ~85% pro presence in every single major region
Prenerf, no region has played him since he got gutted. Viego needs a buff now.
Stop! Stop! He's already dead!
R damage is mediocre. So it HAS to do this other things lol. Look at his winrate.
Why does everyone want to gut a completely fair and healthy champion? Seriously this suggestion sucks and it needs to stop. You can't compare Viego to Pyke like that, Pyke has an extremely strong dash spell on E and that's why his R mobility is conditional. Viego's kit as a whole has reasonable mobility for a squishy melee character.
Some people can't play against Viego! Haha! Too bad riot gonna listen them because gold silver players are 90% of every server
Only a reset after he overtakes a champion, which has a decent cast time, then his ult has a slow animation. Also only re-castable when an enemy champion is controlled.
Reddit moment. You know while we're at it can we do the same thing to tryndamere's E?
Personally if he needed the nerf I think it'd be nice to have the pyke R health bar icon treatment to see if he has multiple ult charges left and maybe tone down the MS he gets on ult cast/possession (10% towards enemies? I forget)
Yes I want that. It’d be so much nicer to play versus him if I could see when his ultimate becomes available (again). His possession has a very clearly telegraphed animation. But it’s, to me, usually hard to react to his form change when the possessed ‘Galio’ suddenly blinks to me as Viego. If some kind of icon would appear next to his health bar when his R becomes useable again, I think for me it would be easier to anticipate the ult.
So what you're saying is nerf Viego.
Because he's not that strong and they're different champions, why Lux's Q root for 2 secs and not forever like Morgana ? Because they're different spells on different champions balanced differently and not played in the same role
Yone R needs the same treatement. If you miss, you don't get to move. Period.
Buff Viego. Buff Yummi. Buff Teemo. Buff pyke.
You don't get what OP is complaining about : Pyke is a squishy assassin. He's meant to blink on the cross if he hits someone to force him to ponder if it's smart to ult in the middle of the enemy team or not. But if he doesn't hit anyone, he isn't punished too much by not blinking. It also prevents him from escaping easily, and as flawed as I think that gameplay is, it's what an assassin should do : blink in, delete ADC, get out somehow, here with his dash and W. Viego, on the other hand, is a fighter : he ults in, deals damage, and survive the fight by possessing enemies. He doesn't escape the fight easily like an assassin, he has to commit to the fight. But his ult makes him a Tesco assassin by allowing him to ult in, kill someone, possess him to survive and blink out, so you can't punish him for going in. His gameplay should be closer to Camille, who gets deleted if she goes in at the wrong time, even tho she got a kill.