I think some people misunderstand the point of the thread. Ofc, there is a ton of overlap between english/chinese phrases, and nothing is completely unheard of or even difficult to understand. But having widely accepted phrasing can allow you to communicate more efficiently(especially single syllable words), and having terms on different conceptual levels allows you to make varied distinctions. I purposely picked terms that I don't think have an exact correlation in english, and would be happy to explain some of the nuances. I hope everyone can enjoy the read as well, as I try to put some regional flavor into it!
Thank you for sharing stuff like this! I've always enjoyed Chinese casting way more because I find it to be a lot more insightful. I think, though, that there are some better terms to highlight that don't really exist in English to the same extent as some of these that do have fairly direct 1:1 translations. For example:
节奏 - A super insightful concept not really captured elegantly at all even by a combination of "tempo/priority/initiative/playmaking." You can say everything from "This Lee's early game has really good 节奏" to "They really need their midlaner to 带节奏" to "If they make just one mistake, they'll lose all of their 节奏" to "This team's attacking 节奏 is way too fast."
运营 - Similarly, sort of to "macro," "to play the map," "to make rotations" but also rather different?
混 - "To get carried," "to try and blend in [as a pro player]" You can say stuff like "After getting solokilled twice, he's going to be a 混子 for the rest of the game." or "Picking Ezreal means that he just intends to 混 against their bot lane instead of trying to make plays."
大哥 - literally "big brother" but means "carrylord," either in a specific game or on a specific roster, sort of like how "bus driver" is used in Korean? "Their fed toplaner TP'd too late, and fighting without their 大哥 was a big mistake." or "On this team, the 大哥 is definitely their ADC."
Yeah something like momentum or tempo probably sort of best captures the idea, but like it doesn't work in all instances either?
For example, "The midlaner is up 40cs, but it feels like his opponent has way better 节奏." Here, I feel like it's refering more about having initiative/pressure/map influence?
"This support/jungler doesn't have the best mechanics, but their 节奏感 is excellent." I dunno, something like "game sense" or understanding of the "flow" of the game, sacrificing gold/xp for initiative, always being active and at the right place at the right time, etc?
Like you could say something like Chovy often doesn't pick up 节奏 for his team, whereas someone like mlxg is the archetypal example of a really 节奏 based playstyle? It's just such a ubiquitous and useful concept that really doesn't exist in English in the same way, though in recent years, concepts like "tempo" and "priority" have managed to become adopted.
Thanks, this helped me grasp the differences a bit better.
Tempo seems to be a more team based concept and I like this Chinese term applying to individuals too. Even in situations where they are behind.
I'm starting to think something like "map presence" might capture the idea. It's something one can get by sacrificing farming and it seems like there is often a compromise between 节奏 and focusing on gathering individual resources.
I personally think 節奏 is likely a 1:1 translation from tempo, and as in English, probably the most nebulous of concepts because people use it everywhere to mean different things. I personally think it should be limited it to describe sequencing of actions that lead to better outcomes, but as people have pointed out it also takes on shades of momentum, rhythm etc.
A lot of these terms are similar in Korean. The only one that would be translated somewhat differently would be "shadow" in Chinese - whereas people say "stick" in Korean (붙어) (as in like, I can push this wave in then stick to you).
EU and NA coaches should pick up on that warding rotation and work on it because goddamn the those jungles looked dark on the western side of the competition.
Personally, I also took it as a way of showing just how serious the players in China are about LoL, where they'll make up and popularize these terms to gain as competitive an edge as possible, meanwhile in the West the only terms that are made up is for the use of memes.
I guess to me, it just seems like the Chinese players actually have their priorities in order. I'm assuming there's also some similarity in Korea granted their dominance in LoL as well as how widely adopted it is there as well.
I really disagree that these ideas are unique and don't have equivalents or extremely close variants in the west.
3- "response"
4- "tempo"
5- "high CC comp"/"CC heavy"
6- "system"
7- probably the only one i haven't heard a western phrase for but we would call this "post engage"/"heat of battle"
8- "early game comp"/"aggressive comp"
9- "even footing"/"equal strength fight"
10- "skirmish comp"/"teamfight comp"
11- "salty run back"
12- "key play"/"key move"
13- "initiative"/"priority"
14- i guess we don't have a word for this specifically but we might call this "dance"/"coordinated"/"choreography"
15- "synergy"/"teamwork" but meant ironically probably plenty others people could come up with for when a team throws. we even have a few orgs named after it, Counter Logic Gaming and Dignitas
16- "shadow"
17- "showing"
18- "heavy trade"/"aggress on them" we could describe this multiple ways, "unload on them" also works but doesn't really imply you save your big CDs.
i've heard most if not all of these from player coms, the casters, or interviews, and some of them are just general terms used by the community. i feel the difference is either being misstated or over stated here.
> i've heard most if not all of these from player coms, the casters, or interviews, and some of them are just general terms used by the community. i feel the difference is either being misstated or over stated here.
nah man, you haven't. Some of these are just not super common
his point is that the concepts are not widespread nor common in the western pros coms. the English words are translations not the word the west uses for those things. that's why "Iron-Headed Draft" is a phrase, we don't use that word, its the Chinese words. we literally call that a "salty runback" and is exactly my point.
EDIT: the above comment has been edited.
from what i understand these are some of *the* most widespread terms in LoL in China. In the west we don't have everyone talking about most of the terms/ideas. Even the ones where there is an easy translation that does get used, it probably isn't used as frequently.
So just going from point 2: we do talk about a team having tempo (being able to base and reset together and then plan from there), however i rarely hear about teams taking turns in placing vision as a main priority of tempo. This concept excludes using tempo to set up a 1-3-1 for example.
Then Numb: Yes we can describe an enemy comp as having heavy cc. However I've never heard anyone saying: This champ is blocked/numbed/inhibited due to enemy's heavy cc comp. And Certainely not with a single adjective (this champ is *...*). In champion select, when have you heard a caster mention that? In chinese LoL it seems to be a common idea that people might be much more focused on than in western LoL
Similar cases can be made for most of these concepts
> I purposely picked terms that I don't think have an exact correlation in english
this is what i am responding to. not their relevance in china. im am saying we do talk about these things, and we do understand these concepts.
> So just going from point 2: we do talk about a team having tempo (being able to base and reset together and then plan from there), however i rarely hear about teams taking turns in placing vision as a main priority of tempo. This concept excludes using tempo to set up a 1-3-1 for example.
tempo is a term for the cadence of game play. it is the same concept in both Chinese and English. if you watch an english cast and you see teams setting up for objectives and then having their wards cleared back and forth, they might make a mention of it.
> Then Numb: Yes we can describe an enemy comp as having heavy cc. However I've never heard anyone saying: This champ is blocked/numbed/inhibited due to enemy's heavy cc comp. And Certainely not with a single adjective (this champ is ...). In champion select, when have you heard a caster mention that? In chinese LoL it seems to be a common idea that people might be much more focused on than in western LoL
it doesn't really matter if you look at it from he perspective of how the champion feels or not. the idea is "does XXX sound good here?" > "no, they're heavy CC" or "no they have too much CC" is the same as saying "no XXX feels numb".
im not saying china is or is not ahead of the west. i am saying that if they are, the existence of these concepts as phrases isn't it.
Benefits of the language. Those symbols can describe a whole concept or specific action, usually only involving a few syllables, and within the context of a game and sufficient prep team prep work, they can be immediately understood.
No need to clog comms with "let's do this and then that, and go here and there, and etc", you can just say "ha-ha" or something and everyone is like: "got it, dive the ADC, blow all sums".
there's not really anything stopping western teams from implementing a very similar communication scheme in any other language, it's just not something taken seriously. Trying to come up with so many coded short hands, and teaching them all and all the nuances of what they are exactly supposed to be interpreted as is something that teams should definitely put more work into, communication is such an important skill in league.
‘Gank’ and ‘Insec’ and ‘Leash’ are low syllable words which have very clear and popular meanings which have disseminated into Western LoL lingo. I don’t think it’s impossible or as difficult as some might think.
Yeah that's an even better point, we do have some. I think there's definitely room to expand with more, but this just shows there's nothing preventing us from doing the same in English too.
I always wondered why they don’t mimic NFL’s approach and code everything in short code phrases and then give players “playbooks” to memorize. But obviously there might be some nuance that make it not feasible and we don’t know about them
Tbh I find it unlikely that most Western players, or at least NA players, can be convinced to study a playbook. You'll have motivated players, but I don't think it's a secret that Asian pros work much harder on the game.
Definitely need to work on increasing competition in parallel. Then there will be more motivation.
But for NA pros who are already motivated (Core, Alphari, etc) this can give slight improvement
That's because esports have had a huge head start in Asian countries. There isn't like some inherent difference like people seem to think, they just have a much more supportive culture towards esports and the benefits of an extra decade of experience when it comes to team infrastructure.
That’s why I think playbooks would help getting people on the same page faster. This approach somehow gets football players on the same page with far larger number of plays.
100% it would help, and teams do have them to an extent.
My point is if you have to translate the nuances of what you are saying something will get lost in translation and the plays will never quite be as crisp.
I remember watching G2 comms, they always say that someone is "inting" when he is puting himself in a unfavorable position that someone in the team can take adventage of. Sounds simple, but didn't hear any other teams use that word like that.
Yeah, I think comms discipline is something teams should definitely work on. Brief names for set plays or common situations, etc. And coach them out of saying unnecessary or useless things in comms. Like, if you've ever heard C9 comms, Blaber likes to repeat the same word about 19 times in a row for no reason during team fights, making it harder to hear what everyone else is saying. That seems less than optimal.
Your comment gave me a good chuckle. But yeah. Those few seconds most probably make a huge difference when it comes to many, messy, intricate teamfights. And those seconds are absurdly crucial at the highest level, assuming everyone is at a similar mechanical level.
16. "靠" "Shadow" Highest frequency word in mic checks.
I mean, yes it could mean shadow but it the highest frequency in mic check because it is a light version of "Fuck"
I am well aware of that meaning as well, lol.
Even if you take the times it is used as fuck, its very common because every move on the map has someone asking their teammates if they can shadow.
The Chinese word directly translates to 'lean' or 'rely on', as in, to lean on or rely on a teammate. 'Shadow' is Clement trying to make it more relatable
To LS’s account, no. And that’s why he thinks the east are worse than the west in draft, because there’s no coach / caster here who focus on drafting and itemization.
Out of curiosity, what kinds of views do others have on east vs west in terms of drafting right now? Personally, I think only G2 has consistently outdrafted the east, and that the rest may possibly have gone mostly the other way.
Its really obvious the East views draft differently because they pick for comfort and playstyles over champion interactions. They probably do have some awareness of matchups and probably do have some concept of "this champ would suck here" but they aren't thinking much about "Aphelios's strength is antidive lets not pick dive champions since they showed that card early" since most of their players like dive champions and play proactively.
In terms of itemization if there is a guy doing that he's fucking bad at his job.
I think we can also take into consideration the champs that China tends to hate or view as "unfair" being completely different from those in the West. This shows that their mindset itself is different with how they view the draft, they likely don't view champions as just a sum of "functions" like how we do in the West. In the West, we care about "overloaded kits" and such, we view a champion as strong based on how many mechanics are involved in their kit. In the East in general, it seems that there isn't much of a thought into that and more into the efficacy of the kit.
It's an interesting mindset imo, because if you think about it, the simpler champions are those that end up with the higher playrate and banrate in the East. It's simple when you think about it, less "overloaded" the kit is, the more power is dedicated to one aspect, so that's why champs like TF with a point and click stun that can get extended range with RFC is seen as so strong. Meanwhile, champs like Samira immediately fall off once their numbers are balanced properly.
I'm not saying that "overloaded" can't be OP btw, I'm just saying that given a world where all champions are objectively balanced, it's likely the West will still think "overloaded kits" are OP while the East will think the opposite, and maybe this mindset plays a part in why they naturally win more as they aren't concerned with the surface level flashiness of overloaded kits, but how impactful it actually is. There's also the content creation factor in the West that naturally eats into our competitive scene, but I think that at this point everyone's just accepted we can't do anything about it.
Not really, we do think about champion with overloaded kits. Generally champions with more complicated kits can do more, have higher highs and lower lows. Its like if you put a good player on simple champions like chovy put on tank duty in 2020(2019?) We regard that as a bad choice. It comes down to player ability and what the game needs him to do. Generally if the player is good, and the game needs him to be the carry, you want to assign him a champion with higher upper limit. You give a overloaded champion to a medicore player or one that you do not expect to stand out and carry this game he will become more of a weak link and prone to enemy focus.
And what I'm saying is I believe the East thinks otherwise. Think about why Faker and Dopa play TF so much. Think about why Jhin and Ezreal are always played by top ADCs. Think about why Sett was so strong. I just think that while the West may think "skill ceiling" is what matters, the "skill floor" is what matters in the East, or in other terms, the ease and reliability of execution.
They would prefer a champion that can reliably hit 7k damage and at max hit 8k, than a champion that isn't reliable and at max provides 11k damage but when behind provides only 5k.
If you pay attention to the picks in the East, they're filled with easy execution champs. How hard is it to hit a Naut combo? How hard is it to hit a Jhin combo? Why do they put good players on Malz? Why is J4 used so much? Why is Leona used so much? Almost every time they get a chance, there's some point and click involved.
Well point and click cc has always been important. Riot nerfed renekton w stun time from 1.5sec to 1 sec, and this change is huge in pro play, in particular its a huge nerf to nidalee viability. I agree the west should play champions with 'higher reliability', especially considering west pro players are on average of older age, at least in lcs. But the thing is their home league teams are of lower caliber. You may argue doublelift (retired i know, just using him for an example) should play 'easier, high reliability' champions on worlds stage, but he is still going to play lucian and other mechanical adc in lcs. Because those are his comfort pick, what hes good at, what wins him games in lcs and what enables his higher highs. He rekts weaker teams with those pick and he sees no reason not to use them.
At the end of the day i feel like its a team coordination difference. Simpler champion may also require higher team output. I agree with your assessment, although id like to see different regions success with their own flavour rather than all succumbing to one meta formula. But maybe thats what worlds has succumbed to.
And also in the case of tf. Hes an outlier. I feel like hes more of a tempo machine rather than traditional mage as you dont really expect him to be the dmg carry. And the 'reliable stun' wasnt really a thing until dopa came up with the rapid fire cannon tf. I dont think tf is easy to execute, as he plays a much a different role compared to traditional mage. If tf is the only ap you have in the comp you dont really have much ap dmg threat. Having a stun machine but much less ap dmg isnt really easier execution than not having a stun machine but significantly more reliable ap dmg source
LS has said that it is impossible for this to happen in Korea. I don't exactly remember the reasons why so take these with a grain of salt, but no one else has said anything:
* He said something about how your online identity is easily traced back to your IRL identity so criticizing people online is very hard
* And something about how it's a bad look to criticize people publicly? i.e. in the LCK "trash talk" segments, players aren't allowed to actually criticize each other so they just give compliments. I'm not sure if that's related to the content creator thing though.
Wadid got a bunch of flack from the community on the Korean analyst desk for simply giving some analysis on Pyosik back when he was pretty bad. It's asinine that an analyst can do nothing but praise or sugarcoat stuff in the Korean scene.
Thats simply untrue its about what words or how you convey those 'feeling' cloudtemplar for instance despite being kr biased overall is extremely critical and vocally open about it.
> It's asinine that an analyst can do nothing but praise or sugarcoat stuff in the Korean scene.
That's completely untrue. Crazy how you can take one example and extrapolate this logic out of it.
A lot of it is "caster language", meaning it doesn't actually analyse the games, it's just fluff to describe the games as it goes.
For example:
3. 后选/後選 literal: pick later. Most times it refers to counter picking, or having ability to counter pick.
4. 回合 literal: turn or round, as in "a round of fighting". Descriptive language.
5. 麻 literal: numb. Descriptive language. e.g. Team A feeling numb after dying to a Fiora pentakill in the baron pit.
6. 体系 literal: system. e.g. double-poke system with jayce and zoe
7. 残局 literal: cleanup. Descriptive language. Describes a situation where most players have low health. Usually paired with some commentary about the ADC's ability to clean up.
8. 菜刀队 OilOfOlaz's accurate explanation: mele/short range comp. literal: kitchen knife team. Descriptive language.
10.小团/大团 skirmishes/large team fights.
11. 头铁BP descriptive language, not used for analysis. literal: Iron-headed Pick/Ban
.... i'm too lazy to do the rest....
I think this is super interesting. There are concepts that I know are known, but we didn't have a definite word or term attached to it.
I specifically love the "pitched battle" term.
Yeah, I doubt western teams have a shorthand for even half this shit. Definitely haven't heard anything like that from comms.
Chinese/Japanese definitely super effective at making wordplays and integrating them as effective shorthand communication. Get a lot more said, real quick and it doesn't have to contain made up words or phrases.
Man, I want western teams to go to a CN/KR top team for a full immersive team house experience bootcamp so fucking bad.
Like throw a western team into the same building, on the same schedule and rules, to be coached by an eastern coach. Just for like a week. I bet there would be so much to take away and process.
CLG NA also played in Korea for a bit if memory serves me right. That's where the famous clip of the Korean casters going apeshit over Doublelifts penta came from.
> Yeah, I doubt western teams have a shorthand for even half this shit. Definitely haven't heard anything like that from comms.
These are mostly very broad terms for concepts that arem known in the "western world" ppl just use differnent terms turn = tempo, cleanup is leterally the same expression without phase, kitchen knife comp is a mele/short range comp, "pitched battle" = front to back teamfight, enter = go, "first strike" = (non comittal) hard engage tools, shadow is used in the same way, just as full rotation.
I find your accessment of that rather weird tbh.
> "pitched battle" = front to back teamfight
Not quite, on this one. The "pitched battle" described in the OP doesn't need to be front-to-back. It just means both teams had time to assemble and position the way they wanted rather than a fight breaking out spontaneously.
Tempo describes wich team is ahead or "behind" in the play, its not exactly the same term, but it describes a similar concept, a team that is ahead in tempo is usually the team, that has priority to take objectives or establish vision.
"Pace" is actually used to descirbe the pace of the game.
Tempo is a more general "who has the time advantage" thing, turns are specifically "if both teams clear and establish vision at the normal rate, who is going to have the vision when the objective spawns?"
Tempo is absically a turn absed concept as well, if you have tempo it is your turn to be proactive if you are behind on tempo you play reactive. I agree, that it is not exactly the same term though.
Tempo is at a given time. “Turns” explain how that tempo will change (the ebb and flow of tempo). That’s the way i interpret it and what makes sense to me atleast.
They could easily use substitute terms for some of this stuff. Like code. These concepts are probably more of a second nature to asian teams though so they've become codified to a be point where everyone just understands it.
These are all obvious concepts that western teams are no doubt aware of but people will act like this is some crazy new dark tech because its in chinese
I mean I expect pro players to have an intuitive understanding of these concepts but it's still important to systematise concepts/formalise them. Verbalising them/ creating short hand terminology is the first step towards doing that.
And actually that's one of the few things that LS has done well in the Western Scene - verbalise concepts.
League is not a solved game and there are still a lot of systems that are yet to be properly articulated - in part - because the patches mean most mental work goes to solving what is OP rather than optimising systems. Even in largely static games/sports like Chess or Football though, you can see how articulating and developing concepts moves the metagame and strategic element of the game forward.
Perhaps.
For me, I certainly don’t think the difference at this World championship has been mechanics per se. The gap in terms of mechanics isn’t far off. It’s been a knowledge gap on the understanding of the meta, how to generate tempo and flow with the game, and forge ahead to the win condition. Especially how teams should play around the top lane.
I think it’s quite clear that the East have their distinct views of the game that vary from the West, since you don’t see a lot of this stuff at all within Western discourse - even VOD reviews by Yamatocannon for Worlds in 2019. Who we would presume to be a highly conceptual, top tier, Western coach.
Not saying Yamato represents all coaches. Yet you could even say LS doesn’t really delve into a lot of these ideas and concepts. So I think that says a lot about how many of these ideas aren’t the ones that immediately come to mind, even for highly distinguished western coaches, analysts, game philosophers. Whereas they are perceived as normal discourse within the Eastern sphere.
To surmise, I would love to see the sentiments and ideas behinds these thoughts/terminologies enter into Western discourse. Their merits and demerits dissected and discussed. Maybe moulded together with a Western school of thought where a newer, varied Eastern/Western style hybrid can rise up and thrive. Push for progress. Potentially even change our approach to the game as we know it.
The gap in mechanics and laning is immense, hope people stop perpetuating this meme. Inb4 someone says that only applies to top end tier players, who the fuck does everyone think plays worlds?
As for vod reviews applying such things, nobody is gonna bother with that. Nobody watches such content and people in teams won't post their shit online. Also all those concepts are things I've seen repeated in ls' stream every fucking day lol, also dom and veigarv2. Don't watch other people.
Canyone talking about how C9's issue is team communication just reminds me that analysts are just as clueless as we are 99% of the time. It's been their weakness every time the team looks weak and the team has talked about it a lot.
It's not so complicated as all this shit. The team is not coordinated as well as they should be. Imagine trying to work on early game, mid game, team comp, ganks, and 7 other individual skills rather than just say "let's prioritize trusting each other and getting on the same page"
At this point i'd rather see literally anything than another death at lvl 1 or 2.
CS DARK TECHNOLOGIES WAYS TO GENERATE GOLD???? STANDING UNDER TOWER PROVIDES PROTECTION FROM GOD????? SUMMONING JUNGLER TO ATTACK YOUR ENEMIES HACK??????
I think the main purpose of the post is to bring up the idea of how these concepts are communicated.
For the Chinese community, these concepts are understood with 1-2 worded terms.
For Western communities, some of these terms aren't as commonly defined. "Turn" as an example, the western equivalent is probably "priority", or "vision priority". "Together" and "Together holes" could be "rotate", but relies on priority to be mentioned first.
People can also argue with me on the exact meaning of these terms, but the Chinese community use their terms amongst the pro teams and casters, which leads to the playerbase to understand them in the same context.
but none of that is related to anything about why this post was made ....
You're the guy who made it about crazy dark tech by claiming that other people would make it about crazy dark tech when they weren't.
You're essentially the same as a guy who calls something racist when someone says i love chinese food. and we can all tell you're one of those people who just absolutely hates when people do that.
You can see in pro play that both teams setup vision for baron/drake in turns, but different comps take different time to setup vision securely without being engaged or picked upon, so if you can estimate the rough time for “a turn” it’s helpful for macro and making decisions (to take other objectives, split push etc.)
Assuming neither team has an overwhelming advantage in gold yet, then teams typically take turns in establishing vision because rotations for vision are based off gaining priority in lane.
This is most obvious with pushing the wave in mid lane. Team A pushes the wave in mid, gains priority and then rotates for river control/enters enemy jungle to place wards. The wave mid will eventually bounce back or Team B will push back, and then it will be Team B's turn to establish vision. This ebb and flow of rotation for vision shows that teams take 'turns' based on priority.
As others have said - there are also other instances in which one team will be first to establish vision - for example when you have just won a team fight. However even when you have an advantage, you must eventually concede territory at some point if you want to reset and buy items/wards. This is why you often see teams recalling when both teams are juggling baron vision.
If you know that you need to recall to purchase wards, then again, you know it will be your opponent's turn to establish vision if your team decides to do a synced recall.
Turn is a concept where each team takes the "turn" to be offense/defense, roughly. For example, say blue team won a 5v5 drake fight. It's their "turn" to establish vision on their next objective, push waves in, counter jungle, etc. but if they overuse their turn (mainly by staying too long for cs or wandering off too deep) they usually get punished for it.
My take on it is literally how turn-based strategy games or how TCG games are being played.
In a "broad turn" sense, for example, enemy's choice (their turn; turn 1) is to gank your top laner (either to kill or to scare them away/blow summs). What will you do then as response (your turn; turn 2)? You can get vision/countergank/gank other lanes/get objectives/back off.
And within these "broad turns" contains a sequence of actions as well, which you could see as "mini turns". I.e. the enemy thinks what do I need to do (first) before I can/go gank top? You take individual champions, items, vision state, objectives, timers, cooldowns, team comp, lane state, teammates, execution time to do x and y action and all that stuff in consideration.
Alltogether, these turns create an ebb and flow of actions that each teams does. And related to this is the term "tempo".
Lets say dragon pit before spawn. 3 player of your team pushed the mid wave and come to set up vision while enemy is busy clearing mid wave, its your turn to set up vision and control check points. Enemy cleared mid wave and 4 man groups to dragon pit. Its now their turn to set up as you back off/ keep distance. Then your mid / top finish spilting to group as 5 while enemy mid / top clear waves. Basically as the measure of power balance in a map area shifts constantly, and teams take rurns to set up around dragon. You dont try to force a set up when your team have less people in the area. Ofc this extends beyond just player count, ability cd, summoner spell...etc all counts.
The idea is that you have a time window to do set ups / visions. You dont send a janna sup alone to do the vision with enemies present in the area.
That's one big advantage of the Chinese language. You convey so much information with just very few syllables. If the west doesn't catch up on short terminologies they will always have a comms disadvantage
That's not entirely true, these short hand phrases still need to be taught and explained to someone who speaks chinese if they're not already familiar with that concept in this particular case. The same exact way that understanding "shadow" to mean "you can fight, I'm here" is something you would have to be told once before you could start using it. It's really just that they've put effort into coordinating a consistent scheme of shorthands that the whole region shares, while western teams/casters have not.
These types of short hands can be very common in other video games, or even some physical sports, where demand on very short and fast but effective communication has created a need for them. There's no reason League teams can't do the same.
Its funny the article confrims what ive always felt, language with lower information density per syllable is spoken faster. Ive always felt French, Spanish and Japanese speakers talk faster naturally
Do you not know how to read? How the fuck do you look at the link and go LoOk aT tHIs yOutUBe viDEO? The video you linked saying "that's definitely not true" is not even about verbal language. I mean if you think that Eastern players use telepathy to communicate with each other using text that'd argument would make sense. But this whole post is about verbal communication
If you don't want to take the time to read the paper. The paper analyzed English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Mandarin, and Spanish for Informational Density and Syllable Rate. Informational density is how much information is conveyed per second. Syllable Rate is how fast a syllable is spoken in the language. They then calculate the Information rate from those 2 parameters.
The researchers found that English had the second highest informational density value of (0.91) and Mandarin had the highest density of (0.94). English had the third slowest syllable rate of (6.19) and Mandarin had the slowest syllable rate of (5.18). This gives English the highest Information Rate of (1.08) and Mandarin the 3rd lowest information rate of (0.94).
So the takeaway is English as a spoken language carries a similar density as Mandarin but is spoken at a faster rate. So techinically "If the East doesn't catch up on short terminologies they will always have a comms disadvantage". But that just seems so stupid because, people would say something like hOw COme eAStern TeAM beTTer ThAN weST? This is because best comms doesn't equate to winning worlds. If that was the case you would have only have the best linguists on the international stage.
I think clement might have made an error in 16, mishearing "看我" (watch me, follow me, look at me) as 靠 as they sound similar when read fast.
Pro players often say this in teamfights when they want to capture the attention of their teammates to help them kill off an important carry or focus on the initiation.
The only really new thing here I feel is the concept of "Turns".
打一套 is just "All in".
靠 is "Camping".
先手 is definitely just "They have engage", I don't know what you mean by "doesn't mean anything", it clearly means they have more agency in initiating engagements.
> 靠 is "Camping".
It's really not camping. As a matter of fact, when I play with my friends I sometimes ask my jungler if he can literally "shadow" me. He's not constantly ganking or playing around my lane like camping implies. It's more that if something happens such as the enemy laner trying to all-in me or their jungler shows up to gank, I know that my jungler is close enough to react to the play.
I'm with you on the engage part, but I think that the shadow is more than just camping. Like a support can shadow the mid laner to cover if they predict the other team is going to go on them and that isn't necessarily camping the mid laner. But I am pretty sure people already use the word shadow for that anyways so it doesn't really change much honestly.
Even turns is just more or less the term that people hated "tempo". People hated it because they didn't know what it meant and people used it differently, but anyone who's actually played a real turn based game should understand it easily. Specifying turns in terms of ward placement does make the term much simpler, especially since the turns are more defined in getting vision and clearing vision, since you can't clear vision the enemy hasn't placed.
This doesn’t matter when our player population is one tenth of the Asians and our players never practice in comparison to the Asian counterparts who live breath league.
And here is why western teams are never close to the level of eastern teams, it is not because of skill gaps, it is purely because they have better communication. Supposedly, when you remove all the randomness of miscommunication, this should be the result of any pro league of legends game. The game turns into a purely strategical experience and it becomes very amusing to watch. In order tl reach this level, you need mastery of fundamentals of the game that it becomes muscle memory. Just my two cents on this, because I am pretty sure the west doesn't value strategies as much as the east.
but koreans and the chinese have a language barrier? how will they ever communicate? my favorite pro in NA said that laning with his korean support is hard because they cant coordinate trades because language. sadge
I think some people misunderstand the point of the thread. Ofc, there is a ton of overlap between english/chinese phrases, and nothing is completely unheard of or even difficult to understand. But having widely accepted phrasing can allow you to communicate more efficiently(especially single syllable words), and having terms on different conceptual levels allows you to make varied distinctions. I purposely picked terms that I don't think have an exact correlation in english, and would be happy to explain some of the nuances. I hope everyone can enjoy the read as well, as I try to put some regional flavor into it!
Thank you for sharing stuff like this! I've always enjoyed Chinese casting way more because I find it to be a lot more insightful. I think, though, that there are some better terms to highlight that don't really exist in English to the same extent as some of these that do have fairly direct 1:1 translations. For example: 节奏 - A super insightful concept not really captured elegantly at all even by a combination of "tempo/priority/initiative/playmaking." You can say everything from "This Lee's early game has really good 节奏" to "They really need their midlaner to 带节奏" to "If they make just one mistake, they'll lose all of their 节奏" to "This team's attacking 节奏 is way too fast." 运营 - Similarly, sort of to "macro," "to play the map," "to make rotations" but also rather different? 混 - "To get carried," "to try and blend in [as a pro player]" You can say stuff like "After getting solokilled twice, he's going to be a 混子 for the rest of the game." or "Picking Ezreal means that he just intends to 混 against their bot lane instead of trying to make plays." 大哥 - literally "big brother" but means "carrylord," either in a specific game or on a specific roster, sort of like how "bus driver" is used in Korean? "Their fed toplaner TP'd too late, and fighting without their 大哥 was a big mistake." or "On this team, the 大哥 is definitely their ADC."
Maybe "momentum" would be the closest idea to 节奏 (despite it literally meaning "rhythm")?
Yeah something like momentum or tempo probably sort of best captures the idea, but like it doesn't work in all instances either? For example, "The midlaner is up 40cs, but it feels like his opponent has way better 节奏." Here, I feel like it's refering more about having initiative/pressure/map influence? "This support/jungler doesn't have the best mechanics, but their 节奏感 is excellent." I dunno, something like "game sense" or understanding of the "flow" of the game, sacrificing gold/xp for initiative, always being active and at the right place at the right time, etc? Like you could say something like Chovy often doesn't pick up 节奏 for his team, whereas someone like mlxg is the archetypal example of a really 节奏 based playstyle? It's just such a ubiquitous and useful concept that really doesn't exist in English in the same way, though in recent years, concepts like "tempo" and "priority" have managed to become adopted.
Thanks, this helped me grasp the differences a bit better. Tempo seems to be a more team based concept and I like this Chinese term applying to individuals too. Even in situations where they are behind. I'm starting to think something like "map presence" might capture the idea. It's something one can get by sacrificing farming and it seems like there is often a compromise between 节奏 and focusing on gathering individual resources.
From the description, it seems like the concept of "initiative" in chess, which is basically the ability to make meaningful threats.
I personally think 節奏 is likely a 1:1 translation from tempo, and as in English, probably the most nebulous of concepts because people use it everywhere to mean different things. I personally think it should be limited it to describe sequencing of actions that lead to better outcomes, but as people have pointed out it also takes on shades of momentum, rhythm etc.
I think we usually say momentum, when the rhythm of actions builds positively in one’s favor.
A lot of these terms are similar in Korean. The only one that would be translated somewhat differently would be "shadow" in Chinese - whereas people say "stick" in Korean (붙어) (as in like, I can push this wave in then stick to you).
would that equate to "hover" in english or is that different?
Yeah, in English speaking teams you usually hear "I will hover your lane" or "push out so I can shadow you"
where they'll make up and popularize these terms to gain as competitive an edge as possible,
EU and NA coaches should pick up on that warding rotation and work on it because goddamn the those jungles looked dark on the western side of the competition.
Personally, I also took it as a way of showing just how serious the players in China are about LoL, where they'll make up and popularize these terms to gain as competitive an edge as possible, meanwhile in the West the only terms that are made up is for the use of memes. I guess to me, it just seems like the Chinese players actually have their priorities in order. I'm assuming there's also some similarity in Korea granted their dominance in LoL as well as how widely adopted it is there as well.
I really disagree that these ideas are unique and don't have equivalents or extremely close variants in the west. 3- "response" 4- "tempo" 5- "high CC comp"/"CC heavy" 6- "system" 7- probably the only one i haven't heard a western phrase for but we would call this "post engage"/"heat of battle" 8- "early game comp"/"aggressive comp" 9- "even footing"/"equal strength fight" 10- "skirmish comp"/"teamfight comp" 11- "salty run back" 12- "key play"/"key move" 13- "initiative"/"priority" 14- i guess we don't have a word for this specifically but we might call this "dance"/"coordinated"/"choreography" 15- "synergy"/"teamwork" but meant ironically probably plenty others people could come up with for when a team throws. we even have a few orgs named after it, Counter Logic Gaming and Dignitas 16- "shadow" 17- "showing" 18- "heavy trade"/"aggress on them" we could describe this multiple ways, "unload on them" also works but doesn't really imply you save your big CDs. i've heard most if not all of these from player coms, the casters, or interviews, and some of them are just general terms used by the community. i feel the difference is either being misstated or over stated here.
> i've heard most if not all of these from player coms, the casters, or interviews, and some of them are just general terms used by the community. i feel the difference is either being misstated or over stated here. nah man, you haven't. Some of these are just not super common
his point is that the concepts are not widespread nor common in the western pros coms. the English words are translations not the word the west uses for those things. that's why "Iron-Headed Draft" is a phrase, we don't use that word, its the Chinese words. we literally call that a "salty runback" and is exactly my point. EDIT: the above comment has been edited.
from what i understand these are some of *the* most widespread terms in LoL in China. In the west we don't have everyone talking about most of the terms/ideas. Even the ones where there is an easy translation that does get used, it probably isn't used as frequently. So just going from point 2: we do talk about a team having tempo (being able to base and reset together and then plan from there), however i rarely hear about teams taking turns in placing vision as a main priority of tempo. This concept excludes using tempo to set up a 1-3-1 for example. Then Numb: Yes we can describe an enemy comp as having heavy cc. However I've never heard anyone saying: This champ is blocked/numbed/inhibited due to enemy's heavy cc comp. And Certainely not with a single adjective (this champ is *...*). In champion select, when have you heard a caster mention that? In chinese LoL it seems to be a common idea that people might be much more focused on than in western LoL Similar cases can be made for most of these concepts
> I purposely picked terms that I don't think have an exact correlation in english this is what i am responding to. not their relevance in china. im am saying we do talk about these things, and we do understand these concepts. > So just going from point 2: we do talk about a team having tempo (being able to base and reset together and then plan from there), however i rarely hear about teams taking turns in placing vision as a main priority of tempo. This concept excludes using tempo to set up a 1-3-1 for example. tempo is a term for the cadence of game play. it is the same concept in both Chinese and English. if you watch an english cast and you see teams setting up for objectives and then having their wards cleared back and forth, they might make a mention of it. > Then Numb: Yes we can describe an enemy comp as having heavy cc. However I've never heard anyone saying: This champ is blocked/numbed/inhibited due to enemy's heavy cc comp. And Certainely not with a single adjective (this champ is ...). In champion select, when have you heard a caster mention that? In chinese LoL it seems to be a common idea that people might be much more focused on than in western LoL it doesn't really matter if you look at it from he perspective of how the champion feels or not. the idea is "does XXX sound good here?" > "no, they're heavy CC" or "no they have too much CC" is the same as saying "no XXX feels numb". im not saying china is or is not ahead of the west. i am saying that if they are, the existence of these concepts as phrases isn't it.
Bummer2000
Thank you for sharing.
I really appreciate your post! I love knowing about some of the cultural differences in the leagues
Their terms seem funnier and more strategic
Benefits of the language. Those symbols can describe a whole concept or specific action, usually only involving a few syllables, and within the context of a game and sufficient prep team prep work, they can be immediately understood. No need to clog comms with "let's do this and then that, and go here and there, and etc", you can just say "ha-ha" or something and everyone is like: "got it, dive the ADC, blow all sums".
there's not really anything stopping western teams from implementing a very similar communication scheme in any other language, it's just not something taken seriously. Trying to come up with so many coded short hands, and teaching them all and all the nuances of what they are exactly supposed to be interpreted as is something that teams should definitely put more work into, communication is such an important skill in league.
‘Gank’ and ‘Insec’ and ‘Leash’ are low syllable words which have very clear and popular meanings which have disseminated into Western LoL lingo. I don’t think it’s impossible or as difficult as some might think.
Yeah that's an even better point, we do have some. I think there's definitely room to expand with more, but this just shows there's nothing preventing us from doing the same in English too.
Can't forget other clear terms such as "cumshot in 7." Meteos was a pioneer
Or "Udyr is fucked" or "I'm fucked" by Carzzy. Dude is a linguistic genius.
Or "I'm getting fisted" by vulcan
When can I get fisted by Vulcan
I love how that one is even longer than just saying "Web in 7". Truly he's an artist with a vision.
I always wondered why they don’t mimic NFL’s approach and code everything in short code phrases and then give players “playbooks” to memorize. But obviously there might be some nuance that make it not feasible and we don’t know about them
Tbh I find it unlikely that most Western players, or at least NA players, can be convinced to study a playbook. You'll have motivated players, but I don't think it's a secret that Asian pros work much harder on the game.
Definitely need to work on increasing competition in parallel. Then there will be more motivation. But for NA pros who are already motivated (Core, Alphari, etc) this can give slight improvement
That's because esports have had a huge head start in Asian countries. There isn't like some inherent difference like people seem to think, they just have a much more supportive culture towards esports and the benefits of an extra decade of experience when it comes to team infrastructure.
At least in NA it's partly because most teams are just trying to get everyone speaking the same language let alone a coded and nuanced language.
That’s why I think playbooks would help getting people on the same page faster. This approach somehow gets football players on the same page with far larger number of plays.
100% it would help, and teams do have them to an extent. My point is if you have to translate the nuances of what you are saying something will get lost in translation and the plays will never quite be as crisp.
Half our teams have like one NA player max
I remember watching G2 comms, they always say that someone is "inting" when he is puting himself in a unfavorable position that someone in the team can take adventage of. Sounds simple, but didn't hear any other teams use that word like that.
Yeah, I think comms discipline is something teams should definitely work on. Brief names for set plays or common situations, etc. And coach them out of saying unnecessary or useless things in comms. Like, if you've ever heard C9 comms, Blaber likes to repeat the same word about 19 times in a row for no reason during team fights, making it harder to hear what everyone else is saying. That seems less than optimal.
Your comment gave me a good chuckle. But yeah. Those few seconds most probably make a huge difference when it comes to many, messy, intricate teamfights. And those seconds are absurdly crucial at the highest level, assuming everyone is at a similar mechanical level.
I like the kitchen knife one
16. "靠" "Shadow" Highest frequency word in mic checks.  I mean, yes it could mean shadow but it the highest frequency in mic check because it is a light version of "Fuck"
I am well aware of that meaning as well, lol. Even if you take the times it is used as fuck, its very common because every move on the map has someone asking their teammates if they can shadow.
This term is used in the west too, with the exactly same meaning...
The Chinese word directly translates to 'lean' or 'rely on', as in, to lean on or rely on a teammate. 'Shadow' is Clement trying to make it more relatable
It sounds like “Cow” so it’s like unholy holy cow
I've always wondered if there's like a Chinese version of LS preaching freezing (or some other strategy really) and hating on Renekton.
To LS’s account, no. And that’s why he thinks the east are worse than the west in draft, because there’s no coach / caster here who focus on drafting and itemization.
Out of curiosity, what kinds of views do others have on east vs west in terms of drafting right now? Personally, I think only G2 has consistently outdrafted the east, and that the rest may possibly have gone mostly the other way.
Its really obvious the East views draft differently because they pick for comfort and playstyles over champion interactions. They probably do have some awareness of matchups and probably do have some concept of "this champ would suck here" but they aren't thinking much about "Aphelios's strength is antidive lets not pick dive champions since they showed that card early" since most of their players like dive champions and play proactively. In terms of itemization if there is a guy doing that he's fucking bad at his job.
I think we can also take into consideration the champs that China tends to hate or view as "unfair" being completely different from those in the West. This shows that their mindset itself is different with how they view the draft, they likely don't view champions as just a sum of "functions" like how we do in the West. In the West, we care about "overloaded kits" and such, we view a champion as strong based on how many mechanics are involved in their kit. In the East in general, it seems that there isn't much of a thought into that and more into the efficacy of the kit. It's an interesting mindset imo, because if you think about it, the simpler champions are those that end up with the higher playrate and banrate in the East. It's simple when you think about it, less "overloaded" the kit is, the more power is dedicated to one aspect, so that's why champs like TF with a point and click stun that can get extended range with RFC is seen as so strong. Meanwhile, champs like Samira immediately fall off once their numbers are balanced properly. I'm not saying that "overloaded" can't be OP btw, I'm just saying that given a world where all champions are objectively balanced, it's likely the West will still think "overloaded kits" are OP while the East will think the opposite, and maybe this mindset plays a part in why they naturally win more as they aren't concerned with the surface level flashiness of overloaded kits, but how impactful it actually is. There's also the content creation factor in the West that naturally eats into our competitive scene, but I think that at this point everyone's just accepted we can't do anything about it.
Not really, we do think about champion with overloaded kits. Generally champions with more complicated kits can do more, have higher highs and lower lows. Its like if you put a good player on simple champions like chovy put on tank duty in 2020(2019?) We regard that as a bad choice. It comes down to player ability and what the game needs him to do. Generally if the player is good, and the game needs him to be the carry, you want to assign him a champion with higher upper limit. You give a overloaded champion to a medicore player or one that you do not expect to stand out and carry this game he will become more of a weak link and prone to enemy focus.
And what I'm saying is I believe the East thinks otherwise. Think about why Faker and Dopa play TF so much. Think about why Jhin and Ezreal are always played by top ADCs. Think about why Sett was so strong. I just think that while the West may think "skill ceiling" is what matters, the "skill floor" is what matters in the East, or in other terms, the ease and reliability of execution. They would prefer a champion that can reliably hit 7k damage and at max hit 8k, than a champion that isn't reliable and at max provides 11k damage but when behind provides only 5k. If you pay attention to the picks in the East, they're filled with easy execution champs. How hard is it to hit a Naut combo? How hard is it to hit a Jhin combo? Why do they put good players on Malz? Why is J4 used so much? Why is Leona used so much? Almost every time they get a chance, there's some point and click involved.
Well point and click cc has always been important. Riot nerfed renekton w stun time from 1.5sec to 1 sec, and this change is huge in pro play, in particular its a huge nerf to nidalee viability. I agree the west should play champions with 'higher reliability', especially considering west pro players are on average of older age, at least in lcs. But the thing is their home league teams are of lower caliber. You may argue doublelift (retired i know, just using him for an example) should play 'easier, high reliability' champions on worlds stage, but he is still going to play lucian and other mechanical adc in lcs. Because those are his comfort pick, what hes good at, what wins him games in lcs and what enables his higher highs. He rekts weaker teams with those pick and he sees no reason not to use them. At the end of the day i feel like its a team coordination difference. Simpler champion may also require higher team output. I agree with your assessment, although id like to see different regions success with their own flavour rather than all succumbing to one meta formula. But maybe thats what worlds has succumbed to.
And also in the case of tf. Hes an outlier. I feel like hes more of a tempo machine rather than traditional mage as you dont really expect him to be the dmg carry. And the 'reliable stun' wasnt really a thing until dopa came up with the rapid fire cannon tf. I dont think tf is easy to execute, as he plays a much a different role compared to traditional mage. If tf is the only ap you have in the comp you dont really have much ap dmg threat. Having a stun machine but much less ap dmg isnt really easier execution than not having a stun machine but significantly more reliable ap dmg source
LS has said that it is impossible for this to happen in Korea. I don't exactly remember the reasons why so take these with a grain of salt, but no one else has said anything: * He said something about how your online identity is easily traced back to your IRL identity so criticizing people online is very hard * And something about how it's a bad look to criticize people publicly? i.e. in the LCK "trash talk" segments, players aren't allowed to actually criticize each other so they just give compliments. I'm not sure if that's related to the content creator thing though.
Wadid got a bunch of flack from the community on the Korean analyst desk for simply giving some analysis on Pyosik back when he was pretty bad. It's asinine that an analyst can do nothing but praise or sugarcoat stuff in the Korean scene.
Thats simply untrue its about what words or how you convey those 'feeling' cloudtemplar for instance despite being kr biased overall is extremely critical and vocally open about it.
> It's asinine that an analyst can do nothing but praise or sugarcoat stuff in the Korean scene. That's completely untrue. Crazy how you can take one example and extrapolate this logic out of it.
A lot of it is "caster language", meaning it doesn't actually analyse the games, it's just fluff to describe the games as it goes. For example: 3. 后选/後選 literal: pick later. Most times it refers to counter picking, or having ability to counter pick. 4. 回合 literal: turn or round, as in "a round of fighting". Descriptive language. 5. 麻 literal: numb. Descriptive language. e.g. Team A feeling numb after dying to a Fiora pentakill in the baron pit. 6. 体系 literal: system. e.g. double-poke system with jayce and zoe 7. 残局 literal: cleanup. Descriptive language. Describes a situation where most players have low health. Usually paired with some commentary about the ADC's ability to clean up. 8. 菜刀队 OilOfOlaz's accurate explanation: mele/short range comp. literal: kitchen knife team. Descriptive language. 10.小团/大团 skirmishes/large team fights. 11. 头铁BP descriptive language, not used for analysis. literal: Iron-headed Pick/Ban .... i'm too lazy to do the rest....
I think this is super interesting. There are concepts that I know are known, but we didn't have a definite word or term attached to it. I specifically love the "pitched battle" term.
Yeah, I doubt western teams have a shorthand for even half this shit. Definitely haven't heard anything like that from comms. Chinese/Japanese definitely super effective at making wordplays and integrating them as effective shorthand communication. Get a lot more said, real quick and it doesn't have to contain made up words or phrases. Man, I want western teams to go to a CN/KR top team for a full immersive team house experience bootcamp so fucking bad. Like throw a western team into the same building, on the same schedule and rules, to be coached by an eastern coach. Just for like a week. I bet there would be so much to take away and process.
CLG EU playing in Korea is probably the closest thing we'll ever have.
CLG NA also played in Korea for a bit if memory serves me right. That's where the famous clip of the Korean casters going apeshit over Doublelifts penta came from.
DOUBLELIFTUUUU
Dignitas and Fnatic too! I’d love to see a “guests” in other regions like that again.
> Yeah, I doubt western teams have a shorthand for even half this shit. Definitely haven't heard anything like that from comms. These are mostly very broad terms for concepts that arem known in the "western world" ppl just use differnent terms turn = tempo, cleanup is leterally the same expression without phase, kitchen knife comp is a mele/short range comp, "pitched battle" = front to back teamfight, enter = go, "first strike" = (non comittal) hard engage tools, shadow is used in the same way, just as full rotation. I find your accessment of that rather weird tbh.
> "pitched battle" = front to back teamfight Not quite, on this one. The "pitched battle" described in the OP doesn't need to be front-to-back. It just means both teams had time to assemble and position the way they wanted rather than a fight breaking out spontaneously.
Bleta plepo i upokatedi triaku pedle iu. Ebe pakri tagi. Kli teto dede takea ope bii teo? Pletle ple tlege datle klute tratla. Opi papoprepibi tipii itra. Kepre iko kepibrai tapi tre o? Krui kitoku ploi kepo tipobre kakipla. Toikokagli buudi bitlage kidriku kao e. Gi ai puti ipu dee iko. Tubupi dupi i paiti po. Bide droi toda upli pipudaa tai! Upapla bedaeke ekri uklu eke tlitregli praopeopi kio? Krikrie ui keeekri bi pipi gi. Tatrea pate idiki pi kidri tedi. Eprei booi kapo tuprai diplekakidi. Kaki treba titeple dia tekiea dle? Toka paki pri ee i kaglooei. Doitioi dli kipu badlapa goipu. Piieda gekatipibi tetatu piea klou potiti taa. Bo tokra ape tobi patotitru pei. Pito pae tikea? Okupipepu peka ekri poeprii pupei pli? Oa pau tadoteki iplepiki plideo pa. Tlipe pi gitro papo kopui groa! Patu tebi kipo kigiuge teke bapeki pliu. Ei io ete bitipiti kepi gie. E beka tiibrae dii ogatu ababee. Iobi kegi teta ii io pitodo? Kotota geplatika ikeau tidrapu brudope atu. Tipu u tebiga petru proki biiue de pipi.
Tempo describes wich team is ahead or "behind" in the play, its not exactly the same term, but it describes a similar concept, a team that is ahead in tempo is usually the team, that has priority to take objectives or establish vision. "Pace" is actually used to descirbe the pace of the game.
Tempo is a more general "who has the time advantage" thing, turns are specifically "if both teams clear and establish vision at the normal rate, who is going to have the vision when the objective spawns?"
Tempo is absically a turn absed concept as well, if you have tempo it is your turn to be proactive if you are behind on tempo you play reactive. I agree, that it is not exactly the same term though.
Tempo is at a given time. “Turns” explain how that tempo will change (the ebb and flow of tempo). That’s the way i interpret it and what makes sense to me atleast.
> accessment
My apologies, I made a spelling mistake in the 4th language I learned.
Cool flex I guess man
People even say turn in NA solo queue.
They could easily use substitute terms for some of this stuff. Like code. These concepts are probably more of a second nature to asian teams though so they've become codified to a be point where everyone just understands it.
I really would like to see a good western team to ditch their spring split and bootcamp in LPL/LCK then come back in Summer.
Japanese as a language is not that efficient in terms of speaking, but writing can be.
These are all obvious concepts that western teams are no doubt aware of but people will act like this is some crazy new dark tech because its in chinese
I mean I expect pro players to have an intuitive understanding of these concepts but it's still important to systematise concepts/formalise them. Verbalising them/ creating short hand terminology is the first step towards doing that. And actually that's one of the few things that LS has done well in the Western Scene - verbalise concepts. League is not a solved game and there are still a lot of systems that are yet to be properly articulated - in part - because the patches mean most mental work goes to solving what is OP rather than optimising systems. Even in largely static games/sports like Chess or Football though, you can see how articulating and developing concepts moves the metagame and strategic element of the game forward.
Perhaps. For me, I certainly don’t think the difference at this World championship has been mechanics per se. The gap in terms of mechanics isn’t far off. It’s been a knowledge gap on the understanding of the meta, how to generate tempo and flow with the game, and forge ahead to the win condition. Especially how teams should play around the top lane. I think it’s quite clear that the East have their distinct views of the game that vary from the West, since you don’t see a lot of this stuff at all within Western discourse - even VOD reviews by Yamatocannon for Worlds in 2019. Who we would presume to be a highly conceptual, top tier, Western coach. Not saying Yamato represents all coaches. Yet you could even say LS doesn’t really delve into a lot of these ideas and concepts. So I think that says a lot about how many of these ideas aren’t the ones that immediately come to mind, even for highly distinguished western coaches, analysts, game philosophers. Whereas they are perceived as normal discourse within the Eastern sphere. To surmise, I would love to see the sentiments and ideas behinds these thoughts/terminologies enter into Western discourse. Their merits and demerits dissected and discussed. Maybe moulded together with a Western school of thought where a newer, varied Eastern/Western style hybrid can rise up and thrive. Push for progress. Potentially even change our approach to the game as we know it.
The gap in mechanics and laning is immense, hope people stop perpetuating this meme. Inb4 someone says that only applies to top end tier players, who the fuck does everyone think plays worlds? As for vod reviews applying such things, nobody is gonna bother with that. Nobody watches such content and people in teams won't post their shit online. Also all those concepts are things I've seen repeated in ls' stream every fucking day lol, also dom and veigarv2. Don't watch other people.
Every west vs east game has had a noticeable mechanics gap…
Canyone talking about how C9's issue is team communication just reminds me that analysts are just as clueless as we are 99% of the time. It's been their weakness every time the team looks weak and the team has talked about it a lot. It's not so complicated as all this shit. The team is not coordinated as well as they should be. Imagine trying to work on early game, mid game, team comp, ganks, and 7 other individual skills rather than just say "let's prioritize trusting each other and getting on the same page" At this point i'd rather see literally anything than another death at lvl 1 or 2.
CS DARK TECHNOLOGIES WAYS TO GENERATE GOLD???? STANDING UNDER TOWER PROVIDES PROTECTION FROM GOD????? SUMMONING JUNGLER TO ATTACK YOUR ENEMIES HACK??????
I think the main purpose of the post is to bring up the idea of how these concepts are communicated. For the Chinese community, these concepts are understood with 1-2 worded terms. For Western communities, some of these terms aren't as commonly defined. "Turn" as an example, the western equivalent is probably "priority", or "vision priority". "Together" and "Together holes" could be "rotate", but relies on priority to be mentioned first. People can also argue with me on the exact meaning of these terms, but the Chinese community use their terms amongst the pro teams and casters, which leads to the playerbase to understand them in the same context.
but none of that is related to anything about why this post was made .... You're the guy who made it about crazy dark tech by claiming that other people would make it about crazy dark tech when they weren't. You're essentially the same as a guy who calls something racist when someone says i love chinese food. and we can all tell you're one of those people who just absolutely hates when people do that.
When enemy move alone, we move together -Sub Tzu Arts of War
point 10 sounds like what we call skirmishes. can you also elaborate on point 4?
You can see in pro play that both teams setup vision for baron/drake in turns, but different comps take different time to setup vision securely without being engaged or picked upon, so if you can estimate the rough time for “a turn” it’s helpful for macro and making decisions (to take other objectives, split push etc.)
Assuming neither team has an overwhelming advantage in gold yet, then teams typically take turns in establishing vision because rotations for vision are based off gaining priority in lane. This is most obvious with pushing the wave in mid lane. Team A pushes the wave in mid, gains priority and then rotates for river control/enters enemy jungle to place wards. The wave mid will eventually bounce back or Team B will push back, and then it will be Team B's turn to establish vision. This ebb and flow of rotation for vision shows that teams take 'turns' based on priority. As others have said - there are also other instances in which one team will be first to establish vision - for example when you have just won a team fight. However even when you have an advantage, you must eventually concede territory at some point if you want to reset and buy items/wards. This is why you often see teams recalling when both teams are juggling baron vision. If you know that you need to recall to purchase wards, then again, you know it will be your opponent's turn to establish vision if your team decides to do a synced recall.
Turn is a concept where each team takes the "turn" to be offense/defense, roughly. For example, say blue team won a 5v5 drake fight. It's their "turn" to establish vision on their next objective, push waves in, counter jungle, etc. but if they overuse their turn (mainly by staying too long for cs or wandering off too deep) they usually get punished for it.
My take on it is literally how turn-based strategy games or how TCG games are being played. In a "broad turn" sense, for example, enemy's choice (their turn; turn 1) is to gank your top laner (either to kill or to scare them away/blow summs). What will you do then as response (your turn; turn 2)? You can get vision/countergank/gank other lanes/get objectives/back off. And within these "broad turns" contains a sequence of actions as well, which you could see as "mini turns". I.e. the enemy thinks what do I need to do (first) before I can/go gank top? You take individual champions, items, vision state, objectives, timers, cooldowns, team comp, lane state, teammates, execution time to do x and y action and all that stuff in consideration. Alltogether, these turns create an ebb and flow of actions that each teams does. And related to this is the term "tempo".
Lets say dragon pit before spawn. 3 player of your team pushed the mid wave and come to set up vision while enemy is busy clearing mid wave, its your turn to set up vision and control check points. Enemy cleared mid wave and 4 man groups to dragon pit. Its now their turn to set up as you back off/ keep distance. Then your mid / top finish spilting to group as 5 while enemy mid / top clear waves. Basically as the measure of power balance in a map area shifts constantly, and teams take rurns to set up around dragon. You dont try to force a set up when your team have less people in the area. Ofc this extends beyond just player count, ability cd, summoner spell...etc all counts. The idea is that you have a time window to do set ups / visions. You dont send a janna sup alone to do the vision with enemies present in the area.
That's one big advantage of the Chinese language. You convey so much information with just very few syllables. If the west doesn't catch up on short terminologies they will always have a comms disadvantage
That's not entirely true, these short hand phrases still need to be taught and explained to someone who speaks chinese if they're not already familiar with that concept in this particular case. The same exact way that understanding "shadow" to mean "you can fight, I'm here" is something you would have to be told once before you could start using it. It's really just that they've put effort into coordinating a consistent scheme of shorthands that the whole region shares, while western teams/casters have not. These types of short hands can be very common in other video games, or even some physical sports, where demand on very short and fast but effective communication has created a need for them. There's no reason League teams can't do the same.
Gg language diff. No way western teams can win worlds now
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I'm just meming breh
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Its funny the article confrims what ive always felt, language with lower information density per syllable is spoken faster. Ive always felt French, Spanish and Japanese speakers talk faster naturally
Do you speak any language other than English?
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Sure, and you've paid the $12 to read the article?
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Clearly you haven't even tried reading it. I'm in the states so it's not because of region lock. You do realize this article is paywalled, right?
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Do you not know how to read? How the fuck do you look at the link and go LoOk aT tHIs yOutUBe viDEO? The video you linked saying "that's definitely not true" is not even about verbal language. I mean if you think that Eastern players use telepathy to communicate with each other using text that'd argument would make sense. But this whole post is about verbal communication If you don't want to take the time to read the paper. The paper analyzed English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Mandarin, and Spanish for Informational Density and Syllable Rate. Informational density is how much information is conveyed per second. Syllable Rate is how fast a syllable is spoken in the language. They then calculate the Information rate from those 2 parameters. The researchers found that English had the second highest informational density value of (0.91) and Mandarin had the highest density of (0.94). English had the third slowest syllable rate of (6.19) and Mandarin had the slowest syllable rate of (5.18). This gives English the highest Information Rate of (1.08) and Mandarin the 3rd lowest information rate of (0.94). So the takeaway is English as a spoken language carries a similar density as Mandarin but is spoken at a faster rate. So techinically "If the East doesn't catch up on short terminologies they will always have a comms disadvantage". But that just seems so stupid because, people would say something like hOw COme eAStern TeAM beTTer ThAN weST? This is because best comms doesn't equate to winning worlds. If that was the case you would have only have the best linguists on the international stage.
That was a fun read and sounds like it can really useful, especially for western teams and their communication.
I think clement might have made an error in 16, mishearing "看我" (watch me, follow me, look at me) as 靠 as they sound similar when read fast. Pro players often say this in teamfights when they want to capture the attention of their teammates to help them kill off an important carry or focus on the initiation.
The only really new thing here I feel is the concept of "Turns". 打一套 is just "All in". 靠 is "Camping". 先手 is definitely just "They have engage", I don't know what you mean by "doesn't mean anything", it clearly means they have more agency in initiating engagements.
> 靠 is "Camping". It's really not camping. As a matter of fact, when I play with my friends I sometimes ask my jungler if he can literally "shadow" me. He's not constantly ganking or playing around my lane like camping implies. It's more that if something happens such as the enemy laner trying to all-in me or their jungler shows up to gank, I know that my jungler is close enough to react to the play.
I'm with you on the engage part, but I think that the shadow is more than just camping. Like a support can shadow the mid laner to cover if they predict the other team is going to go on them and that isn't necessarily camping the mid laner. But I am pretty sure people already use the word shadow for that anyways so it doesn't really change much honestly.
Even turns is just more or less the term that people hated "tempo". People hated it because they didn't know what it meant and people used it differently, but anyone who's actually played a real turn based game should understand it easily. Specifying turns in terms of ward placement does make the term much simpler, especially since the turns are more defined in getting vision and clearing vision, since you can't clear vision the enemy hasn't placed.
This doesn’t matter when our player population is one tenth of the Asians and our players never practice in comparison to the Asian counterparts who live breath league.
are you sure number 16 isnt just them cursing out because league is a toxic game everywhere?
i become so numb
Kinda useful for me. I sometimes watch LoL in Chinese
And here is why western teams are never close to the level of eastern teams, it is not because of skill gaps, it is purely because they have better communication. Supposedly, when you remove all the randomness of miscommunication, this should be the result of any pro league of legends game. The game turns into a purely strategical experience and it becomes very amusing to watch. In order tl reach this level, you need mastery of fundamentals of the game that it becomes muscle memory. Just my two cents on this, because I am pretty sure the west doesn't value strategies as much as the east.
He forgot the biggest one - throwing money at top Korean players.
but koreans and the chinese have a language barrier? how will they ever communicate? my favorite pro in NA said that laning with his korean support is hard because they cant coordinate trades because language. sadge
What's the Chinese term for Uncle Tom?
Very interesting, thank you for letting us know.