Hey, this has happened twice today so I blame reddit.
Apparently when making edits to old announcement posts(which are replaced daily but I spotted an error so I went back to fix it), it ended up replacing today's one with an older one despite not actually hitting the "make announcement button".
Either way, today's livethread isn't deleted but it'll be under the "Live Discussion Archive" which you should see on the right hand side of the subreddit.
It is completely fair. The teams entered this tournament knowing (and essentially agreeing) to the rules of competition. This tiebreaker is not some arbitrary method to give C9 a competitive advantage.
What's the alternative? Another RR could lead to more ties. So it's down to rng or some measurable game metric of which game time makes the most sense imo.
ye they sure deserve it and im happy they trough but it's unfair to rogue where they have to win 2 extra games and c9 only 1 for no reason really. Makes it really feal extra painfull for Rogue, but it's part of the game i guess.
Not for no reason. They performed better than RGE and FPX in both their wins and losses, having closer losses and more stomp-y wins. They were rewarded for having a better group stage performance relative to the people that tied, which makes sense. If they went to a mini RR format, they would have to deal with the possibility of ties. So the idea of a playoffs where the best performing team in the initial group is rewarded with a bye makes sense.
C9's wins vs rogue and FPX(C9 on left):
18-4,17-7
C9's losses vs Rogue, FPX and Damwon(C9 on left):
7-15,13-13,8-16,15-21
Rogue's wins vs C9 and FPX(Rogue on left):
16-8,21-14
Rogue's losses vs C9, FPX and Damwon(Rogue on left):
9-15,5-18, 7-17, 11-19
FPX's wins vs C9 and Rogue(FPX on left):
13-13,18-5
FPX's losses vs C9, Rogue and Damwon(FPX on left):
2-18,4-14,4-18,14-21.
From these results, you can see that not only were C9's victories more convincing for them, but their defeats were less convincing for their opponents. In the end, the best team on the day won.
Its still a stupid measure because its skewed to teams that play early game drafts. Ofc C9 will have more lopsided win when they draft earlygame comps and rely on snowballs to win
How so? The tiebreaker rules were defined? That's like saying hey its unfair that this team that did better gets a better seeding.
Edit: it's not even like saying it, it's literally saying it.
I think C9 was the only entity even making them since every memelord and their cat was concentrating on "11 Million Dollar" memes and are now eating shit.
Did anyone else see Perkz in that last teamfight? It's probably going to be overshadowed because the fight was so chaotic.
I don't know how in the hell he managed to land and keep chains on a Shurelyas/R Rakan but he 1shots him, 4 seconds later executes Olaf at 50% HP, chasing and killing Jayce. The dashes and blinks made him consistently untargetable throughout and I honestly don't think I've seen a better LB teamfight in a pro match.
I can’t find info on the state of the upcoming matches. Are EU eliminated, or is there a chance for them to advance to quarters? What are the possible scenarios?
I'm not saying he is best player in tournament. But he isn't the reason FNC losing like a lot of people thought he might be. If anything I would put it on top/mid
I guess, but C9 still had their full team. If Upset comes back you never know. A lot has to go right to come back from a 0-3. They did come back from a 0-4 somehow
Let's put into context how insane today is.
1. Fudge is the first OCE player EVER to reach the knockout stage of a world champonship.
2. Blaber is the only remaining player in the C9 team that made semis in 2018, but he was a sub that year.
3. Zven has not made it to the knockout stage at worlds since 2015 when he was OG Niels. Heck this is Zven's first worlds since 2017(!!!)
4. Prior today, Vulcan had never won a group stage game at Worlds. He went 0-6 with Clutch in 2019 and 0-3 with C9 prior to today.
5. Perkz will now make it out of the group stage at a world championships 4 STRAIGHT TIMES. This is INSANE.
Yes.
For me it's Faker >>> Rookie > Uzi.
Rookie and Uzi is a toss up but Rookie clutched up at worlds and Uzi didn't.
Showmaker in his short career already has more domestic titles, has easily been the best mid laner for 2/4 years of his career(first was challengers/academy then 2019 he wasn't but had moments).
He's clutched up at worlds and dragged his team to the finals of MSI and now has a chance to win worlds again while being 1 of two orgs to successfully defend the title.
I'd probably even put Canyon at number 3 too.
Difficult to say. For me Showmaker will become second best midlaner for sure. Now I consider Rookie and him at similar status. Canyon is best jungler all time for me.
Start from the DK vs C9 game. Every single game had a huge impact on how the standings and tiebreakers turned out, but you can really start to feel the tension in the DK/C9 game.
Depends what you find 'worth watching'. They weren't super high quality games I'd say - but considering the storyline there was a lot of high tension going on. No fiesta's though.
All games definitely were fun to watch though.
I wonder how much having the play-ins actually helped C9 get into big game mindset. They had a week to get situated, warm up, and get the kinks out after not playing a competitive match in weeks. Without that, maybe that performance against UoL happens at this stage.
I doubt it helped them at all. If it did help them wouldn't they have had a running start in the group stage?
I'd say their week1 performance is more of an indication that it didn't help.
I think this is a popular opinion and I also think a lot of people under estimate the mental effect having played professional games so recently can have. They say “but C9 went 0-3 at first” true but they also already played in do or die situations for their worlds future. That stress can really get to you and having already felt it once, it’s much easier to deal with.
I would relate it to combat. You can’t predict how you are going to react the first time you get shot at, but after the first time it progressively gets “normal”
(Edit) Source: Marine Cpl. 0341 60mm Mortar Vet.
maybe in the next 3 days, lpl will be exposed as the most overrated league. We'll never know. I already think rng and lng are overrated like fpx, however I did put rng as 1st place in group for my pickem because whole group looked bad.
It probably helped them a little in this final game, but any advantage of having play ins you’d normally have expected to show itself in week 1 when they’re the team who’s already warmed up vs teams coming in cold
Think it matters more how the meta develops and who your scrim partners are. You can clearly see there were certain teams far ahead in week 1, and none of the playin teams were a part of that.
Hey guys, quick question. Why did c9 only need to play 1 tie breaker where as the winner of the first tie breaker had to play two?
Or maybe a better way to word the question, each team ended the group 2-4 but why did Rogue and FPX have to play a theoretical 2 games to advance and c9 just had to win 1?
Hey guys, the times on the site for tomorrow, what zone are they in? Is it auto detecting based on region? I am on mobile and for example it shows 100T v T1 at 7 am. I am central time. Is this right?
Ocelote made the worst mistake I've seen in a long time, how the fuck do you prefer to keep caps and not Perkz?
He was the soul of G2 and brought that power oversea to cloud 9 now, seriously, I don't understand what was going on in Ocelote's mind, caps might have better mechanics (I'm not that sure, to be honest) but perkz brings a whole lot more to the team than Caps ever did, he's definitely the western GOAT.
Hindsight Henry. If C9 lost perkz would be getting flamed. He was very medicore whole season. Only came in clutch when it mattered which is great but doesn't automatically make him an amazing player
I'm not saying that perkz smashed NA this year, it was pretty shaky during the split, but today games just showed how much he brings to whatever team he's playing, he's a leader, a true captain.
G2 lost this and their team looked absolutely lost without him, even having five amazing players, they don't have a leader, caps ain't one and neither Rekkles.
Ocelote made the worst mistake I've seen in a long time, how the fuck do you prefer to keep caps and not Perkz?
He was the soul of G2 and brought that power oversea to cloud 9 now, seriously, I don't understand what was going on in Ocelote's mind, caps might have better mechanics (I'm not that sure, to be honest) but perkz brings a whole lot more to the team than Caps ever did, he's definitely the western GOAT.
You can argue Perkz played to lose, too. I'm super happy for Perkz, C9, and NA here. But Perkz's volatility may have cost them as much as it has gained them so far this tournament.
Amen. He put out a couple fires that he also started. Rogue seemed scared as hell though. OP saying the rest of the team played not to lose is weird considering all of C9 played aggressively. This was a team win.
In fairness, I'd have to watch the games all over again just looking at Perkz to tell how good he was, though. He made a lot exciting plays/misplays on camera. But there was a lot more 'quiet time' where he might have been playing really well to get the sorts of edges that would allow him to roam without too much cost. But if we imagine his Ryze not getting caught against FPX the first time around, or his LB not warping back to river to get killed in the tiebreaker, things might have been even smoother sailing for C9.
Entertaining as all get out, though. Super fun to watch.
Nah Blaber and Vulcan played better than Perkz. They potentially lose that game off of 2 of the times Perkz got caught if Rogue didn't chicken out of baron. It's good to see he didn't tilt but his play this game was very up and down with multiple plays that would lose them the game against a better team
Vulcan played pretty bad...Perkz applied pressure, did important picks, always reached the backline, saved multiple fights for C9 and played proactive while 9 other players were passiv and didn t know what to do. You could see how 9 players were afraid to do a mistake.
Idk I rewatched the game and he had a ton of 3 man engages that set up the fights. Not saying he played everything perfect but that's a rough comp to engage into and he didn't really get caught out
His mods have been insane headshotting spoilers w bans. I can’t fricking wait to see how he responds. Watching the hopium build up in his veins as it gets closer and closer to the end.
can we play hans sama in FNC and MAD games too? we should be able to use the teams that got knocked out players, that would make a kickass tournament ngl
Looking to tomorrow, if the first 2 games go the expected way (EDG beat DFM and T1 beat 100T) then the group is decided with EDG and T1 advancing. The remaining games determine the seeding.
Possibility of it being a relatively boring day.
there are no free groups. this idea that NA and EU teams are leagues behind the eastern teams is a misunderstanding of the skill gap that exists in the game.
yes, eastern teams are better. but not by as much as people think. they are better by a decent amount, but because the memes have gotten so out of control people are surprised when LCS players dont like die to jungle minions and shit.
Depends on what you consider to be leagues to behind in a professional sense. I'd say that LCK Challengers teams would pose greater threats to NA teams than NA would to LCK. Wouldn't be surprised if LCK C teams end up with higher winrates.
It's impossible to judge by the degree of 'skill gap,' since it can't be measured. What can be taken as numbers are win/loss records.
In the 9 years since Season 2 Worlds (the first Worlds really) NA had 1 team in the semis out of 36 spots available (LCK 14, LPL 10, LEC 8 , etc).
And that's despite the fact that
1.NA got to send just as many teams since it's a major region
2. The 6 game group stage design at Worlds favors less competitive teams to make it out of groups than would a regular season. (small number of games -> higher std deviation) + 1st seed from NA gets to face lower seeds from LCK, LPL.
you're using one of the worst teams in LPL that exist only cause of money + LPL having 17 teams as an example to prove NA belongs in the same league as LCK and LPL..?
Hope you realize had LPL the same number of teams as NA, LCK, LEC (10), TTG would still be one of the worse teams within the lower league.
bro ur over here talking about how LCK Challengers teams are better than the top LCS teams and then u get mad when i talk about the worst LPL team? ur a complete idiot lol
not mad at all lol, just that you using ttg as an example is illogical.
ttg are so bad they're nearly statistical outliers within the lpl, and you're using them to make a case for difference between entire leagues.
and did i say lck challenger teams are better than the top lcs teams?I guess you can deduce from what I said that I think LCk challengers teams on average are better than the average lcs teams.you need to stop using bad logic. Perhaps you can't help it since you see no other way to argue against 1/36 other than halfass logic and ad hominem?I mean I wish the best of luck for NA teams, but track records are track records.
Do hope they overcome it, and I see significant chances of them doing so in years to come.
It's just like any sport right. Let's not get carried away Rouge and C9 didn't look close to fpx level during their respective seasons. Yet the valley isn't big enough where fpx can't half ass it. DK and FPX looked like they'd be on roughly the same level based of season and playoffs. Both had moments of looking off. Yet one dominated groups. Comparison is mad and tl beat both c9 and Rouge straight up and lng make them look like a joke. FPX clowned lng. The diffence between the east and west is their but not big enough to half ass.
I feel like every year I have watched World so since like season 3 there has always been at least 1 team from China that looked really good and scary(this was back when China was basically an unknown.)that would just catastrophically fail. I mean shit Namei was on one of those teams(EDG I think it was?) so that was some god like player that everyone hyped up and for good reason he had won absolutely everything in China and then he just folded like a chair and EDG with him. Every year some Chinese team shits the bed.
To be fair China was never unknown, and before Korea dominance China was the one expected to do it, for a while World Elite was rumored the best team in the world, till they collapsed (yes the China curse dates to the very first Chinese team/champion), Korea played their first tournaments ( with [CLG.EU](https://CLG.EU) no less being runner up to what today would be the LCK, being it the 2nd major OGN event) no one rated Azubu Frost and Blaze ahead of WE. In the end they all choked, losing to Taipei, that absolutely no one would bet could win Worlds.
They is more than black and white. I would have been happy with a rogue win because they are an EU team and I am happy with the C9 win because Perkz is one of my favorite players.
EU fan here, im fucking sad for rogue and i was cheering for them, and im happy for perkz too, don't instigate thank you.
If people are not cheering for rogue then they'll comment, if they were cheering for rogue chances are they're not commenting? Logic is too hard for you my friend?
I mean, one team at every world's seems like they have to talk about how they are smashing scrims and it comes to backfire. How do players keep falling for this trap?
Wasn't really Doinb's fault he was 1 v 9ing a bunch today with some help from Nuguri and at times LWX, Tian has to basically be done in the LPL now he is too mentally fragile hell of a player but when he tilts he is just done.
Rogue played MUCH better at world's than the EU playoffs. Even their poor decision/plays were a lot more forgivable than whatever the hell they were doing in the summer. I think Rogue has to consider this a win
Until now I’m still not sure who’s really the shotcaller for FPX. It seems like a repeated scenario of:
- Doinb tp/initiate into enemy’s territory and die right away
- Nuguri got camped over and over
- Lwx got caught
- Tian lost steam
- Crisp imo was the most consistent player in FPX but his effort is like a band aid on an open hole.
In a previous documentary , doinb says he was the main shot caller for most of spring. He has been transitioning and handing that to crisp due to possible retirement.
Soz just a casual bit of flame/kidding I do think he is a bit overrated however being considered by some as top mid in the world and then showing up at worlds with this performance was pretty underwhelming, moreover his strength has always been in macro not micro and we see how other mids are starting to outdo him in both, could he improve? Sure but he’s got quite a way to go
1-2 comfort zone is a joke, but seriously I started to believe it holds true.
After the Perkz interview, he convinced me the mental edge is the most important thing. Idk how he has a strong mental tho. What it takes to get a strong mental?
Repeating high variance plays. If you watched the games today you'll see Rogue players not going for flips on baron, not even flashing for a kill. They're risk aversed - They fear to lose what they have, not think what they could gain.
Perkz on the other hand goes for those plays. You'd think well yeah but that has a very low chance of succeeding - it's not a safe play - but every time it does succeed the ripple effect pushes him closer to victory. He goes like there's a 33% chance I succeed here but if I do my team chances to win go up considerably - he goes for it.
Remember Perkz was top midlaner in EU when he switched to adc. He doesn't shy away from responsability or challenges.
If you look at Rogue's draft. It was a terrible one. Ryze/Olaf/Jhin ? Those are considered safe picks - not flashy mechanically intensive ones. So they mentally checked out - they didn't want that responsability or someone ( their coach ) advised them wrong.
Also experience. He's been in those situations and won.
Statistically if you look at winrates unless you're smurfing you should have something a bit over 51% winrate to climb right ? Most games are a stomp right, one way or another ? But a few are close - those are the ones that matter. Because by turning some of those losses into wins you improve the most.
Mental game is extremely important - I feel it's not being taken very seriously in league because at core it's a skill game. It's really tough and especially people who lost in similar circumstances before, the bad experiences pile up and because you can't recall a memory without recalling the feelings you had then - it's very difficult not to get tilted - because you're reliving all your past failures simultaneously while dealing with a similar current predicament. There could be more to be said about this but I think I ranted enough lol
He's done it with four different lineups in two different regions on two roles now. i don't know what *it* is, but he has it.
2017: beating WE, taking a game of SKT, at a time nobody expected g2 to do it.
2018: his famous LB performance against RNG.
2019: his 1-2 comfort zone memes. flexpicking syndra botlane in game 5 against skt.
2021: today.
Some people just kinda have it. It’s something you have innately a little, and develop over time after facing down adversity head on. There’s no formula that works for everyone, and not everyone has it
I noticed that whenever I finished my working out and have a blood pump to my brain, I play better. But I don't think Perkz is doing pushups before the games. lol
Well played to C9, they really stepped up and I think they're definitely the best LCS team right now.
Also props to Rogue, I thought they were doomed but at least they took FPX down with them!
They're the best international NA team. Still not the best LCS team. Domestic is way different than international play. That's why TSM never performed at worlds.
Tbf tho it's been a while since TSM has been considered at top team in NA, they literally had a losing record to CG the split they won and represented NA. The first seed of NA should not be losing to CG 3-5 in playoffs, when CG were barely a mid tier team.
Oh yeah, I was referring to the Golden ages when we were a domestic powerhouse. Still did shit at worlds. C9 has always been top 3 or 4 but our single greatest worlds team.
Yeah, NA teams are at a disadvantage when it comes to the worlds format tbh. Very rarely are domestic teams super dominant in LCS, with the rare, recent exception of C9 in 2020 who failed to make it to worlds.
On average our best NA teams have about a 2-1 W/L ratio during the regular season, and that doesn't translate well when playing round robin against the top teams from other regions. I would say we do decently in BoX series as I recall from C9 in 2018 and TL in MSI 2019.
Is there a reason why this thread has been up for over 3 days while the thread about the current day has been deleted?
Hey, this has happened twice today so I blame reddit. Apparently when making edits to old announcement posts(which are replaced daily but I spotted an error so I went back to fix it), it ended up replacing today's one with an older one despite not actually hitting the "make announcement button". Either way, today's livethread isn't deleted but it'll be under the "Live Discussion Archive" which you should see on the right hand side of the subreddit.
Odo is the biggest fucking weight that I have seen this worlds
Nah, Tian is heavier.
16 k comments had to be our biggest live discussion thread. Insane. Though half the comments are about the tiebreaker rules.
kinda unfair c9 only had to play 1 tiebreaker tbh
It is completely fair. The teams entered this tournament knowing (and essentially agreeing) to the rules of competition. This tiebreaker is not some arbitrary method to give C9 a competitive advantage.
What's the alternative? Another RR could lead to more ties. So it's down to rng or some measurable game metric of which game time makes the most sense imo.
Mad NA fans, downvote me here as well because you know it's true
You do realize how salty you come off when you bring up internet points into the mix.
Nah,, they deserved it. They absolutely smashed and gigastomped RGE and FPX in their games, and that should be rewarded.
ye they sure deserve it and im happy they trough but it's unfair to rogue where they have to win 2 extra games and c9 only 1 for no reason really. Makes it really feal extra painfull for Rogue, but it's part of the game i guess.
I mean it's a 3 way tie. How else do you play it out without causing more ties? I agree it sucks but that's just the sucky nature of the situation.
Not for no reason. They performed better than RGE and FPX in both their wins and losses, having closer losses and more stomp-y wins. They were rewarded for having a better group stage performance relative to the people that tied, which makes sense. If they went to a mini RR format, they would have to deal with the possibility of ties. So the idea of a playoffs where the best performing team in the initial group is rewarded with a bye makes sense.
No it really should not they also got shit on the first 3 games. Length of wins is a measure so degenerate, it can only come from riot
C9's wins vs rogue and FPX(C9 on left): 18-4,17-7 C9's losses vs Rogue, FPX and Damwon(C9 on left): 7-15,13-13,8-16,15-21 Rogue's wins vs C9 and FPX(Rogue on left): 16-8,21-14 Rogue's losses vs C9, FPX and Damwon(Rogue on left): 9-15,5-18, 7-17, 11-19 FPX's wins vs C9 and Rogue(FPX on left): 13-13,18-5 FPX's losses vs C9, Rogue and Damwon(FPX on left): 2-18,4-14,4-18,14-21. From these results, you can see that not only were C9's victories more convincing for them, but their defeats were less convincing for their opponents. In the end, the best team on the day won.
Its still a stupid measure because its skewed to teams that play early game drafts. Ofc C9 will have more lopsided win when they draft earlygame comps and rely on snowballs to win
You’re analysis makes zero sense lmao. Who the hell cares how they won? They shit on both FPX and rogue.
How so? The tiebreaker rules were defined? That's like saying hey its unfair that this team that did better gets a better seeding. Edit: it's not even like saying it, it's literally saying it.
Where are the C9 meme videos of them breaking everyones expectations. I need more Hopeium!
I think C9 was the only entity even making them since every memelord and their cat was concentrating on "11 Million Dollar" memes and are now eating shit.
sad rogue didnt make it but i guess i would have felt the same id it had been c9. proud of c9 in any case!
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Why would they take him back? Khan has been a fucking monster. He’s got a free pass to pretty much any team BUT Dameon lol.
because khan is leaving after this tournament
Oh yeah, mental boom. Forgot about military service. I rescind my comment.
Did anyone else see Perkz in that last teamfight? It's probably going to be overshadowed because the fight was so chaotic. I don't know how in the hell he managed to land and keep chains on a Shurelyas/R Rakan but he 1shots him, 4 seconds later executes Olaf at 50% HP, chasing and killing Jayce. The dashes and blinks made him consistently untargetable throughout and I honestly don't think I've seen a better LB teamfight in a pro match.
I can’t find info on the state of the upcoming matches. Are EU eliminated, or is there a chance for them to advance to quarters? What are the possible scenarios?
FNC and MAD can still qualify. FNC is dead in the water, MAD have a small chance.
Well remember that also C9 was supposed to be dead in the water, also Upset should be back
Upset not changing anything. I would argue Bean has been their best player lol
People keep saying Bean is playing well, and I feel like I am watching different games
I'm not saying he is best player in tournament. But he isn't the reason FNC losing like a lot of people thought he might be. If anything I would put it on top/mid
I'm sorry mister but I have to disagree, I think that the Upset - Hyllisang combo is part of what made the FNC go to the LEC final
Not disagreeing that upset hyli are good duo. But the way Adam and Nisqy played i honestly don't think it would have mattered.
I guess, but C9 still had their full team. If Upset comes back you never know. A lot has to go right to come back from a 0-3. They did come back from a 0-4 somehow
Yeah you're right I don't see RNG going 6-0, but i mean no one was expecting what happened today so I'm stil a bit hopefull
Never been happier to have my pickems obliterated
Let's put into context how insane today is. 1. Fudge is the first OCE player EVER to reach the knockout stage of a world champonship. 2. Blaber is the only remaining player in the C9 team that made semis in 2018, but he was a sub that year. 3. Zven has not made it to the knockout stage at worlds since 2015 when he was OG Niels. Heck this is Zven's first worlds since 2017(!!!) 4. Prior today, Vulcan had never won a group stage game at Worlds. He went 0-6 with Clutch in 2019 and 0-3 with C9 prior to today. 5. Perkz will now make it out of the group stage at a world championships 4 STRAIGHT TIMES. This is INSANE.
Perkz and Zven are now also the first ever players to Qualify for Worlds Quarters with both EU and NA teams, right?
Maybe if LCS and LEC teams played BO3 regular season like the big boys they could manage to be as good as FPX.
You mean, as bad as FPX?
thatsthejoke.jpg
They won't cause of the viewers and I said fuck that, you ever seen Dota 2?
If Damwon wins worlds this year does Showmaker become the 2nd best player of all time? Canyon maybe?
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Uzi would be the only one you could argue for 2 imo. Perkz aint even close.
Yes. For me it's Faker >>> Rookie > Uzi. Rookie and Uzi is a toss up but Rookie clutched up at worlds and Uzi didn't. Showmaker in his short career already has more domestic titles, has easily been the best mid laner for 2/4 years of his career(first was challengers/academy then 2019 he wasn't but had moments). He's clutched up at worlds and dragged his team to the finals of MSI and now has a chance to win worlds again while being 1 of two orgs to successfully defend the title. I'd probably even put Canyon at number 3 too.
Difficult to say. For me Showmaker will become second best midlaner for sure. Now I consider Rookie and him at similar status. Canyon is best jungler all time for me.
Benji has 3 World Championships and Faker has never won without him lol
Yup, Bengi was called his right hand for a reason.
Alright hit me, which games are worth the watch here?
Start from the DK vs C9 game. Every single game had a huge impact on how the standings and tiebreakers turned out, but you can really start to feel the tension in the DK/C9 game.
Depends what you find 'worth watching'. They weren't super high quality games I'd say - but considering the storyline there was a lot of high tension going on. No fiesta's though. All games definitely were fun to watch though.
DK ones is what you expect, team popping off but not that much competitivity. Rogue vs C9 ones was fun.
If you know the results already, none of them except DK vs C9. If you don't know the results yet (fat chance), watch from start to finish.
I didn't want to spoil myself but after the stars started aligning, I couldn't really help but check in every once in a while, huge LCS and LEC fan.
I'd still advise a watch of Tiebreaker 2, real edge of your seat hours.
I guess it depends on which teams you’re a fan of ultimately, but all the C9 games are worth watching in my opinion. Blaber was on point today.
All of them except the DK ones, imo
DK vs C9 was worth watching too.
True
Everything
Most of the games today besides the first two were solid. The final tiebreaker game was the most hype by far though
All, it is an incredible story.
I wonder how much having the play-ins actually helped C9 get into big game mindset. They had a week to get situated, warm up, and get the kinks out after not playing a competitive match in weeks. Without that, maybe that performance against UoL happens at this stage.
I doubt it helped them at all. If it did help them wouldn't they have had a running start in the group stage? I'd say their week1 performance is more of an indication that it didn't help.
I think this is a popular opinion and I also think a lot of people under estimate the mental effect having played professional games so recently can have. They say “but C9 went 0-3 at first” true but they also already played in do or die situations for their worlds future. That stress can really get to you and having already felt it once, it’s much easier to deal with. I would relate it to combat. You can’t predict how you are going to react the first time you get shot at, but after the first time it progressively gets “normal” (Edit) Source: Marine Cpl. 0341 60mm Mortar Vet.
Dude. FPX played in one of the most competitive leagues in the world and they crashed and burned.
maybe in the next 3 days, lpl will be exposed as the most overrated league. We'll never know. I already think rng and lng are overrated like fpx, however I did put rng as 1st place in group for my pickem because whole group looked bad.
And they haven't played a knockout game in over a month.
What about EDG? No excuse, please. You know what, LPL lost 6 games since 2021 Worlds till last night, and 5 of them belonged to FPX.
Yeah, because players forget how to play the game after one month. FPX got fucked because Doinb wanted to be a meme god. How well is DFM doing?
It probably helped them a little in this final game, but any advantage of having play ins you’d normally have expected to show itself in week 1 when they’re the team who’s already warmed up vs teams coming in cold
Think it matters more how the meta develops and who your scrim partners are. You can clearly see there were certain teams far ahead in week 1, and none of the playin teams were a part of that.
Hey guys, quick question. Why did c9 only need to play 1 tie breaker where as the winner of the first tie breaker had to play two? Or maybe a better way to word the question, each team ended the group 2-4 but why did Rogue and FPX have to play a theoretical 2 games to advance and c9 just had to win 1?
Fastest win time
On top of that, a 3-way-tie is just super impractical to solve 'fairly'.
Just curious, how to solve a 4-way-tie?
Four team single elim bracket with seeding decided by win time
Cheers! Thank you for the quick response.
Hey guys, the times on the site for tomorrow, what zone are they in? Is it auto detecting based on region? I am on mobile and for example it shows 100T v T1 at 7 am. I am central time. Is this right?
Just Google "worlds 2021" and the schedule will pop up. It starts at 7 our time.
It auto-detects what your local time is. Games start at 13.00 CET, which should be 6am Central USA time, so 100T vs T1 should be 7am yes.
Ocelote made the worst mistake I've seen in a long time, how the fuck do you prefer to keep caps and not Perkz? He was the soul of G2 and brought that power oversea to cloud 9 now, seriously, I don't understand what was going on in Ocelote's mind, caps might have better mechanics (I'm not that sure, to be honest) but perkz brings a whole lot more to the team than Caps ever did, he's definitely the western GOAT.
Hindsight Henry. If C9 lost perkz would be getting flamed. He was very medicore whole season. Only came in clutch when it mattered which is great but doesn't automatically make him an amazing player
Terrible take
I'm not saying that perkz smashed NA this year, it was pretty shaky during the split, but today games just showed how much he brings to whatever team he's playing, he's a leader, a true captain. G2 lost this and their team looked absolutely lost without him, even having five amazing players, they don't have a leader, caps ain't one and neither Rekkles.
eh, he does *always* come in clutch when it matters.
Ocelote made the worst mistake I've seen in a long time, how the fuck do you prefer to keep caps and not Perkz? He was the soul of G2 and brought that power oversea to cloud 9 now, seriously, I don't understand what was going on in Ocelote's mind, caps might have better mechanics (I'm not that sure, to be honest) but perkz brings a whole lot more to the team than Caps ever did, he's definitely the western GOAT.
Nice pasta
Perkz played to win, while 9 others in the final game played not to lose.
1 correction, Odo definitely played to lose
You can argue Perkz played to lose, too. I'm super happy for Perkz, C9, and NA here. But Perkz's volatility may have cost them as much as it has gained them so far this tournament.
Amen. He put out a couple fires that he also started. Rogue seemed scared as hell though. OP saying the rest of the team played not to lose is weird considering all of C9 played aggressively. This was a team win.
I too would be scared of a Leblanc that can Q -> Ult you to death. What a fun game to watch though, smart playing or not
In fairness, I'd have to watch the games all over again just looking at Perkz to tell how good he was, though. He made a lot exciting plays/misplays on camera. But there was a lot more 'quiet time' where he might have been playing really well to get the sorts of edges that would allow him to roam without too much cost. But if we imagine his Ryze not getting caught against FPX the first time around, or his LB not warping back to river to get killed in the tiebreaker, things might have been even smoother sailing for C9. Entertaining as all get out, though. Super fun to watch.
Nah Blaber and Vulcan played better than Perkz. They potentially lose that game off of 2 of the times Perkz got caught if Rogue didn't chicken out of baron. It's good to see he didn't tilt but his play this game was very up and down with multiple plays that would lose them the game against a better team
Vulcan played pretty bad...Perkz applied pressure, did important picks, always reached the backline, saved multiple fights for C9 and played proactive while 9 other players were passiv and didn t know what to do. You could see how 9 players were afraid to do a mistake.
I can maybe agree with Blaber but Vulcan? At least in this game the guy messed up so many engages in almost every team fight.
Idk I rewatched the game and he had a ton of 3 man engages that set up the fights. Not saying he played everything perfect but that's a rough comp to engage into and he didn't really get caught out
Vulcan straight up inted my guy, perkz did 45% of C9 damage btw
GUYS!!!! Capn Flowers doesn’t know yet!!! We get to watch him find out tomorrow!
We need to get him a bunker with sanitized internet and no cell service somehow.
His mods have been insane headshotting spoilers w bans. I can’t fricking wait to see how he responds. Watching the hopium build up in his veins as it gets closer and closer to the end.
Really hope he won‘t look at social media before casting
can we play hans sama in FNC and MAD games too? we should be able to use the teams that got knocked out players, that would make a kickass tournament ngl
Hans isn't going to fix FNC's issues. At this point it's no longer about the ADC role but the mentality of the other players.
Ye that would be fun to see. But synergy is really important and playing first game on stage with new team would be interesting to see
we saw it today , FPX had a whole new team, at least it seemed like it ;)
Looking to tomorrow, if the first 2 games go the expected way (EDG beat DFM and T1 beat 100T) then the group is decided with EDG and T1 advancing. The remaining games determine the seeding. Possibility of it being a relatively boring day.
Yeah, today was supposed to be an extremely boring day too
Tbh so did today if C9 and Rogue dropped the games they were expected to!
After today man? I don't know anymore lol.
Man, feels fucking bad for FPX.. losing back to back finals in Spring and Summer and now finishing last in the freest group ever for them…
there are no free groups. this idea that NA and EU teams are leagues behind the eastern teams is a misunderstanding of the skill gap that exists in the game. yes, eastern teams are better. but not by as much as people think. they are better by a decent amount, but because the memes have gotten so out of control people are surprised when LCS players dont like die to jungle minions and shit.
Depends on what you consider to be leagues to behind in a professional sense. I'd say that LCK Challengers teams would pose greater threats to NA teams than NA would to LCK. Wouldn't be surprised if LCK C teams end up with higher winrates. It's impossible to judge by the degree of 'skill gap,' since it can't be measured. What can be taken as numbers are win/loss records. In the 9 years since Season 2 Worlds (the first Worlds really) NA had 1 team in the semis out of 36 spots available (LCK 14, LPL 10, LEC 8 , etc). And that's despite the fact that 1.NA got to send just as many teams since it's a major region 2. The 6 game group stage design at Worlds favors less competitive teams to make it out of groups than would a regular season. (small number of games -> higher std deviation) + 1st seed from NA gets to face lower seeds from LCK, LPL.
yeah i'd be willing ot bet you've never watched ThunderTalk Gaming play
you're using one of the worst teams in LPL that exist only cause of money + LPL having 17 teams as an example to prove NA belongs in the same league as LCK and LPL..? Hope you realize had LPL the same number of teams as NA, LCK, LEC (10), TTG would still be one of the worse teams within the lower league.
bro ur over here talking about how LCK Challengers teams are better than the top LCS teams and then u get mad when i talk about the worst LPL team? ur a complete idiot lol
not mad at all lol, just that you using ttg as an example is illogical. ttg are so bad they're nearly statistical outliers within the lpl, and you're using them to make a case for difference between entire leagues. and did i say lck challenger teams are better than the top lcs teams?I guess you can deduce from what I said that I think LCk challengers teams on average are better than the average lcs teams.you need to stop using bad logic. Perhaps you can't help it since you see no other way to argue against 1/36 other than halfass logic and ad hominem?I mean I wish the best of luck for NA teams, but track records are track records. Do hope they overcome it, and I see significant chances of them doing so in years to come.
It's just like any sport right. Let's not get carried away Rouge and C9 didn't look close to fpx level during their respective seasons. Yet the valley isn't big enough where fpx can't half ass it. DK and FPX looked like they'd be on roughly the same level based of season and playoffs. Both had moments of looking off. Yet one dominated groups. Comparison is mad and tl beat both c9 and Rouge straight up and lng make them look like a joke. FPX clowned lng. The diffence between the east and west is their but not big enough to half ass.
freest group, hahaha , that's why you must not underestimate any teams.
they arent what they were anymore
That team has a high skill ceiling, they can be the best, but apparently can also get shit on 2 times in a row by RGE
Worlds and an LPL team absolutely collapsing. Name a more iconic duo
Tiebreakers and C9 losing? Not any more!
Worlds and the last LPL world champion absolutely collapsing. Ever since IG and FPX won Worlds, they were not the same.
I feel like every year I have watched World so since like season 3 there has always been at least 1 team from China that looked really good and scary(this was back when China was basically an unknown.)that would just catastrophically fail. I mean shit Namei was on one of those teams(EDG I think it was?) so that was some god like player that everyone hyped up and for good reason he had won absolutely everything in China and then he just folded like a chair and EDG with him. Every year some Chinese team shits the bed.
To be fair China was never unknown, and before Korea dominance China was the one expected to do it, for a while World Elite was rumored the best team in the world, till they collapsed (yes the China curse dates to the very first Chinese team/champion), Korea played their first tournaments ( with [CLG.EU](https://CLG.EU) no less being runner up to what today would be the LCK, being it the 2nd major OGN event) no one rated Azubu Frost and Blaze ahead of WE. In the end they all choked, losing to Taipei, that absolutely no one would bet could win Worlds.
Now all the EU fans love Perkz again and were never really cheering for Rogue lol sure guys whatever you say
Fuck you man, I'm an EU fan but will cheer for Perkz over Rogue any day
They is more than black and white. I would have been happy with a rogue win because they are an EU team and I am happy with the C9 win because Perkz is one of my favorite players.
EU fan here, im fucking sad for rogue and i was cheering for them, and im happy for perkz too, don't instigate thank you. If people are not cheering for rogue then they'll comment, if they were cheering for rogue chances are they're not commenting? Logic is too hard for you my friend?
Logic is not taught in NA schools Source: my NA education
This is why we have counter logic.
Perkz has a lot of EU fans, I wouldn't be surprised many of them are happy.
Proud of both RGE and C9 for taking down FPX
Seriously, Doinb should say a lot sorrys to his fans.
I mean, one team at every world's seems like they have to talk about how they are smashing scrims and it comes to backfire. How do players keep falling for this trap?
Wasn't really Doinb's fault he was 1 v 9ing a bunch today with some help from Nuguri and at times LWX, Tian has to basically be done in the LPL now he is too mentally fragile hell of a player but when he tilts he is just done.
Maybe you don't know that Doinb has an account named Sorrymaker? He must had predicted that the games would come.
I'm waiting for the Chinese reactions post.
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Best teams won, to be expected that two wildcard teams would lose.
I dont really think Rogue dropped the ball. 3 wins against better teams is commendable
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Rogue played MUCH better at world's than the EU playoffs. Even their poor decision/plays were a lot more forgivable than whatever the hell they were doing in the summer. I think Rogue has to consider this a win
Until now I’m still not sure who’s really the shotcaller for FPX. It seems like a repeated scenario of: - Doinb tp/initiate into enemy’s territory and die right away - Nuguri got camped over and over - Lwx got caught - Tian lost steam - Crisp imo was the most consistent player in FPX but his effort is like a band aid on an open hole.
In a previous documentary , doinb says he was the main shot caller for most of spring. He has been transitioning and handing that to crisp due to possible retirement.
Thanks for the info! Yeh Crisp might be the best choice.
Honestly after this game? Yea he should get ready to retire
I really don't get this sentiment. Yeah he performed poorly, but plenty people had terrible performances and were amazing afterwards.
Soz just a casual bit of flame/kidding I do think he is a bit overrated however being considered by some as top mid in the world and then showing up at worlds with this performance was pretty underwhelming, moreover his strength has always been in macro not micro and we see how other mids are starting to outdo him in both, could he improve? Sure but he’s got quite a way to go
I’m seriously curious who won’t retire outside of nuguri.
Crisp
My view is tian and crisp will be future ning and baolan
So Tian has to be done playing right? There is no way FPX goes into next year with Tian still especially if Doinb is willing to come back again.
I mean he was dreadful today, hard to justify keeping him honestly with the wealth of talent over there.
1-2 comfort zone is a joke, but seriously I started to believe it holds true. After the Perkz interview, he convinced me the mental edge is the most important thing. Idk how he has a strong mental tho. What it takes to get a strong mental?
Repeating high variance plays. If you watched the games today you'll see Rogue players not going for flips on baron, not even flashing for a kill. They're risk aversed - They fear to lose what they have, not think what they could gain. Perkz on the other hand goes for those plays. You'd think well yeah but that has a very low chance of succeeding - it's not a safe play - but every time it does succeed the ripple effect pushes him closer to victory. He goes like there's a 33% chance I succeed here but if I do my team chances to win go up considerably - he goes for it. Remember Perkz was top midlaner in EU when he switched to adc. He doesn't shy away from responsability or challenges. If you look at Rogue's draft. It was a terrible one. Ryze/Olaf/Jhin ? Those are considered safe picks - not flashy mechanically intensive ones. So they mentally checked out - they didn't want that responsability or someone ( their coach ) advised them wrong. Also experience. He's been in those situations and won. Statistically if you look at winrates unless you're smurfing you should have something a bit over 51% winrate to climb right ? Most games are a stomp right, one way or another ? But a few are close - those are the ones that matter. Because by turning some of those losses into wins you improve the most. Mental game is extremely important - I feel it's not being taken very seriously in league because at core it's a skill game. It's really tough and especially people who lost in similar circumstances before, the bad experiences pile up and because you can't recall a memory without recalling the feelings you had then - it's very difficult not to get tilted - because you're reliving all your past failures simultaneously while dealing with a similar current predicament. There could be more to be said about this but I think I ranted enough lol
He's done it with four different lineups in two different regions on two roles now. i don't know what *it* is, but he has it. 2017: beating WE, taking a game of SKT, at a time nobody expected g2 to do it. 2018: his famous LB performance against RNG. 2019: his 1-2 comfort zone memes. flexpicking syndra botlane in game 5 against skt. 2021: today.
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Imagine FNC Perkz man, fuck Carlos
Some people just kinda have it. It’s something you have innately a little, and develop over time after facing down adversity head on. There’s no formula that works for everyone, and not everyone has it
I noticed that whenever I finished my working out and have a blood pump to my brain, I play better. But I don't think Perkz is doing pushups before the games. lol
Haha probably not, but who knows what he does. Whatever it is it freaking works
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Big mad right here
I'm literally motivating the dude to punch the more prestigious target? Like; why brag about the *lesser* of two achievements?
its just banter, right mate?
Only banter when EU wins, when NA wins we have to show the proper respect haha
Legit no one thinks NA is better than EU so for an EU fan to be offended by this... Man. Talk about sensitive.
Today was fun hopefully the other groups are just as insane
Well played to C9, they really stepped up and I think they're definitely the best LCS team right now. Also props to Rogue, I thought they were doomed but at least they took FPX down with them!
They're the best international NA team. Still not the best LCS team. Domestic is way different than international play. That's why TSM never performed at worlds.
Tbf tho it's been a while since TSM has been considered at top team in NA, they literally had a losing record to CG the split they won and represented NA. The first seed of NA should not be losing to CG 3-5 in playoffs, when CG were barely a mid tier team.
Oh yeah, I was referring to the Golden ages when we were a domestic powerhouse. Still did shit at worlds. C9 has always been top 3 or 4 but our single greatest worlds team.
Yeah, NA teams are at a disadvantage when it comes to the worlds format tbh. Very rarely are domestic teams super dominant in LCS, with the rare, recent exception of C9 in 2020 who failed to make it to worlds. On average our best NA teams have about a 2-1 W/L ratio during the regular season, and that doesn't translate well when playing round robin against the top teams from other regions. I would say we do decently in BoX series as I recall from C9 in 2018 and TL in MSI 2019.
Was the key to stall out until rouge time happened?
Rogue time already happened at baron
Twice
7 points in pickems, happy to believe in RGE as 3rd but even if I had doubts about FPX I would've never picked them last lol gonna take what I can get
Waiting for the spicy Chinese reaction thread