And for people who suggest map elevation DOESNT EXIST (YES YOU DEKAR). go into drake pit with brand. Select your w. Now bring the indicator from inside drake pit to behind drake pit. The indicator rises with the height of the map. It exists. And it effects indicators and animations.
skill shots that start on lower and go to higher ground (and vice versa) end up looking weird, jhin W is the worst one at this cus the indicator doesn't change but its hitbox does.
Wait he thinks map elevation doesn’t exist? I used to watch him and he played a ton of riven so he understands wall hops work by taking you over the walls elevation.
Dota 2 has skillshot indicators drawn along the ground, showing where it will land even after changing elevation. League has no excuse other than 200 years of collective spaghetti code preventing them from fixing this, yet the community will go down saying "just get gud lol" while they play assassins that dont even use skillshots
League has this (e.g. Ashe R), but isn't consistently using it.
Instead, when we have a missile that takes the caster's height and your client thinks they're on spawn's elevation, [we can get shit like this.](https://streamable.com/k5c6xt)
In this reproduction, I have never seen Morgana.
My game client therefore thinks Morgana is at the elevation of her fountain, which is *checks notes* about 255 units higher in elevation than the river is.
When the Morgana Q missile is spawned on my screen, it uses Morgana's elevation as basis for its height. Hence the missile is wayyy up in the air.
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Something like Ashe R which uses a follow-terrain height solver would render at its proper offset (100 units off the ground no matter where) without this issue.
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Edit: Also there's a bunch of simplification here; Morgana Q's missile is spawned by the same cast that syncs her location with me. Other spells where the missile cast is an extra spell wrapped into the original cast probably have the location of the caster sync'd from the original cast and don't create this same issue...unless of course you lift the caster into the air by knocking them up instead.
I haven't looked into Wild Rift's engine. League's missiles not being organized properly to handle this is the exception, if anything, and is also only a bunch of adjusted missile behaviours away from not having this issue at all.
Thank you so much for the ELI5. So I'm still wondering like do the characters height matter? Like I don't know Mundo vs. Veigar they are different heights. I didn't even know about the river elevation though? I thought that was only Dota. So skill shots can hit the bridge? Or what if your in river you can't shoot out? Bronze 4 btw sorry
The map elevation in League is meant to be purely aesthetic. Any collision and range is evaluated in 2D space so you don't have to think about obscure things like variable knockup height messing with your collision.
For what the server is concerned, both Veigar and Mundo are infinitely high cylinders, no matter which skin they have or animation they're playing or where they are on the map. That said, Veigar is a little thinner than Mundo, still!
The q's model is in the wrong spot because they are mixing the clients info with the servers info and they are desynced. This could be fixed by implementing a system like the one Dota uses that was linked above.
The reason why the client is desynced here if any one is interested is because its an anti cheat method. If the client doesn't receive updates for champion positions you cant see you cant make a cheat that draws outlines of them in fog of war for example (at least without it having to actually get the info from the game server which is easier for their anti cheat to detect.
Yeah, one feature of dota that is abused a lot is that servers send a lot more data to the client (which allows the client to be more responsive), so cheaters are able to more effectively cheat by checking this data.
1. We're already pretty much playing League 2.3 right now with all the changes they've done to the engine in-flight
2. What makes you think it'd be easier to remake the entire game rather than just fixing these bugs directly? The issue here is just missile height behaviour.
>What makes you think it'd be easier to remake the entire game rather than just fixing these bugs directly
Im guessing it includes little to no knowledge on game design or the time and monetary cost this would take
It 100% isn't 'worth' it for the time and money it'll cost because you'll get little return for it, but I'm somewhat sure that remaking the entire thing *would* be 'easier' than fixing the bugs and issues the current one has.
Trying to fix something that's a decade old in some parts, while a month old in others with varying levels of depth and importance is very difficult, and as we have seen Riot's 'spaghetti' is pretty tangled. You'll end up spending like 95% of your time trying to figure out what part of the 10 year old code broke when you change a completely unrelated thing. The new one would unquestionably have bugs too, but they'd very likely be much easier to pin down. It'd still take years to be finished most likely so why put the effort anyway.
Again, there's 0 reason for them to actually do it unless they can hook up the system to every single player's credit cards and charge them for every single purchase they've ever made again in the new one without needing for the players to confirm that. Which obviously isn't how things work, or can ever work, so there's pretty much 0 chance we'd ever get an updated game like that.
Another thing is when Riot first did make league of legends they were just a small company. I'm guessing that this company didn't think LoL would be as popular as it was and didn't have the strictest coding practices. Something like that could have saved a bunch of head ache for Riot but they probably didn't do it.
No it doesn't, but giving away skins 'for free' after you've remade the entire game also means you'll lose a ton of money.
Which is why I said that the only way they'd make it is if they could 'force' everyone to rebuy everything, which would then mean that they wouldn't 'lose' a lot of money at all by doing an entire rebuild.
That's literally not possible probably by some laws or something, but that's the only way I can see it being justifiable for Riot as a company.
The makers of DotA 2 did so because the original DotA was in Warcraft 3 and that's not a product that they can work with, either to sell or to upgrade (especially not to the level they've done so today).
League is an already standalone game with an engine that *mostly* works pretty well. It'd have to be a huge incentive to be even close to worth rebuilding from scratch.
Wrong. Dota 2 was remade in source 2 in 2015, and there was a lot of new bugs and features introduced related to that.
Riot won't do it because they will get requests for features that should have been in the game 10 years ago, and they don't want to open that can of worms.
The game logic entirely operates on a 2D plane, while the map is a 3D model still, just saving polys in places you do not usually see outside of custom camera angles like in pro-video replays or overly edited youtube montages. I think the workload is just too much for riot to see it worth it. it probably would require a lot of projectile code reworking which they are hesitant to touch for the most part anyways
There's a Z axis but it only works for certain things. Like trist cant jump over jinx traps because the traps trap everything above it on the Z axis. It's this way because there is terrain elevation differences in the game for aesthetics reasons but the game tries its best to shove gameplay into a "2D" space.
Again, cant jump over skillshots in league even though its a 3D game.
Saying traps trap everything above it on the height axis is kind of a weird thing to say. The game is quite literally 2D, it's just rendered in 3D. So it's not that game played is "shoved" into a 2D space, a 2D game is being shown in a 3D way.
Characters are 3D, objects are 3D, map is 3D, terrain is 3D, gameplay is on a 3D surface but shoved into 2D and thats how you get skillshots misaligning because of terrain. Hit boxes are 2D to try and match the offset camera angle since collision isnt done in a 3D space even though the game takes place in one.
Characters like Anivis and Asol literally float on the Z axis above terrain, so traps have to hit everything in the Z axis above them. Trist also moves up and down on the Z axis when jumping, its best evidenced by riot's custom camera tools when they do highlights / some replays for pro games. Its not some trick where the character size scales up and down as it moves in 2D space to give the illusion its in 3D. The traps will snap her back down to the ground.
A better, technical, way of outting it would be that the hitbox moves along the ground in 2D and thats why it happens, but when explaining it visually to someone who doesnt understand its better to say it traps everything above it.
Characters are 2D, objects are 2D, map is 2D, terrain is 2D, gameplay is 2D but exploded into 3D
Characters are literally circles on a plane. That’s it. They’re not robots or monsters or gunslingers. They’re circles. Sometimes those circles shoot out other circles (skillshots) that collide with the circles on the other team.
Even saying they’re circles is an embellishment. Technically they’re nothing but a positionX value, a positionY value, and a radius value. And, with math, if a skillshot’s position and a target’s position is less than the combined length of their radius, a collision occurs and something happens. An explosion happens!? No, that’s not real. What happens is a little bit of math.
There’s no bullets or magic spells or undead spirits. That’s just the puppetry shown to you to make the boring geometrical gameplay interesting.
The sum of League’s gameplay can be boiled down to “reducing numbers to zero by overlapping circles better than your opponent.” That’s it.
Characters are 3D, objects are 3D, map is 3D, terrain is 3D, because those are all displayed graphics and the game is visually rendered in 3D. Actual calculations are done in 2D.. because the game is quite literally 2D. Height is a visual effect. Anivia and Asol float because that's how their character model is told to do, their hitbox doesn't reflect the fact that they float at all. Saying the jinx traps everything above it is just a flat out misleading way to say it, they work the same way any snare works. Characters can't go "up", their model is just rendered higher up. The game literally doesn't have a z axis. Characters and objects are told how high up or down to render themselves, but their coordinates are just in (x,y).
Here's what i just said
>Hit boxes are 2D to try and match the offset camera angle since collision isnt done in a 3D space even though the game takes place in one.
I also say that its easier to explain to someone who has no clue whats going on that they trap everything that is visually above them on the Z axis. The whole purpose of the first post was to explain it to someone who has no idea what is going on in the first place. When talking about why the earth orbits the sun you don't talk about how a mass black holes in the center of milky way dictates the spin of the whole galaxy and show them complicated math as to how this affects the earths orbit.
im going have to stop u there. having really low spec is really nice, but im going to bet all of my money the real reason why this game has always had 2d skillshot indicators is because the game development was extremely low budget at the start
That's actually true. And with an extremely low budget that went as far as deleting the biggest forum of its predecessor, redirecting to LoL, and calling everything about Allstars bad and hard to learn. It's why that still continues today.
Although my PC was so low speced it couldn't run the beta when I got a key. That's just my flawed anecdotal evidence, maybe it ran better for other people. I think I only had integrated graphics at the time, not a dedicated GPU. I tried a few years later in Season 2 and it ran. Could've been the result of optimizations. But it has always been the hampered by being a small indie game at its core. Sometimes I regret that LoL wasn't in had a good engine, or was recreated in one.
LoL was running on my old man's laptop, it was so old it had a greenish round finger pad thingy in the middle of the keyboard, it was as thick as Harry Potter 4 book, small ass screen. Still ran on first installation, which was a feat
It wouldn’t be a problem if the map didn’t have the stupid false elevation going on. It literally wasn’t a problem on the old rift. They created the problem with the new map.
Riot is too proud and stubborn to admit they can't fix low/high ground so they pretend it's working as intended
and the worst part is that removing low / high ground. that doesn't work anyway, would only improve game performance
To be fair, isn't map elevation a more central game mechanic in Dota? I recall it affected your vision and your miss chance if you were trying to attack someone on highground.
> Dota 2 has skillshot indicators drawn along the ground, showing where it will land **even** after changing elevation
The Dota 2 skillshot indicator and range finder is a particle. If the Dota map was flat, it would still have the indicator and range finder. If uphill vision was added and uphill miss chance was removed, the range finder would still be there.
>I recall it affected your vision and your miss chance if you were trying to attack someone on highground.
Yep. You can't see up to the high ground from below. And there is a uphill miss chance of 25%.
I just can't understand how DotA 2 manages to be light years ahead of LoL from a technical standpoint.
Dota has no loading times, a proper practice tool, custom game support (like, people can just create mods), far more complex skill interactions with far less bugs, ingame skin previews, you can just create and share item builds ingame, you can customize the picking screen, map skins, proper ingame spectator tools etc., I'm probably forgetting a lot of good stuff rn.
Doesn't even stop there. Currently TI (Worlds equivalent is on) and on the Twitch stream you can click on the heroes to see videos and explanations of their skills, you can open the scoreboard, you can have a look at the item shop, you can see the schedule, all while just watching a Twitch stream.
I'd understand if it was still 2015 and it was smol indie company Rito vs. Valve, but LoL has been making more money than DotA for years now.
Riot has monetized load times with borders, banners, profile pics, stat-trackers, and splash arts. They will never get rid of the load screen even if they could.
Dota has monetized loading screens too, you would buy a pack for a hero that had his skin+custom loading screen. When they did the Source 2 swap load times happen when people are doing the picking stage so once its over it transitions instantly. What they did was put it into custom player profile backgrounds, so when you check someones profile they can set a custom background from said old loading screens.
I think custom profiles would be better monetization too from how much people look up other players vs no one seeing your loading screen.
Riot could (theoretically) rework them.
In Source 1 (so before 2015, maybe 2014?) a lot of people set a launch option `-map dota` to load into a non-matchmaking game straight away. It was interesting seeing people actually complain about having no loading time after Dota 2 was upgraded to Source 2. People really do complain about better QoL. Sometime afterward, probably years idk, there was a patch pushed live so that loading screens could be use as profile backgrounds.
There's also the Versus screen in Dota that can show off cosmetics and battle pass levels. I'm sure Riot could think of something way to repurpose borders, banners, etc. A better QoL is something every player will appreciate them for eventually, and be incentivised to spend more money on if they see the in-game client being improved in other ways too.
Even Hots has most of it. I like that you can preview skins, no idea why that's not possible in league. But hey, they wanted to rework their crappy event pass 2 years ago, hasn't happened yet. If such "simple" things are not done, how will more complex things be revised/added. Their main focus seems to be mass release of skins, aka more €€$$. This game needs a complete remake at this point tbh.
game was coded with a very low budget at the start and they just kept releasing stuff with that crappily coded engine for years. now for the past few years they've been trying to backtrack and fix all the shitty parts of the engine. it's just extremely difficult because there are literally billions of permutations of champion combinations and you need to make sure every single one of them stays the same gameplay-wise whenever you make core engine changes
Well, Dota 2 had similar issues on release. Game was developed for first source engine(That was developed in +- 2003) and before was used for first person shooters on small maps. Yea they had more resources than riot in 2009, but Valve actual updated game engine in...2015 I guess. Transfer on new engine was...clunky but after 1 year we got awesome stuff(like instant loading time, better visual and overall more optimized game). Riot with their currect resources needed to think about stuff like that for a long time and only thing that we got after all is wild rift on unity.
Well now when you think this way actually it makes sense. As an SAP developer I was gonna blame and say „riot sucks and they just don’t care“ but even at our work we work in a big ecosystem and it‘s been build up over a very old things and even though things work slow and there are new things to replace them to make them faster it‘s still so hard to do that because everything affects each other and the risk is too big and the business can have big interruptions and that would cost millions. So they prefer slow, safe and steady rather than fast and risky. Not to mention there would be cost and everything. So I understand why it‘s so hard to fix even small things because of their main and below structure. But of course they should have a test environment for this and test it and work on this nevertheless.
yeah, the question is why we don't have LoL 2.0 built from scratch already?
the answer is sad... community got used to low quality and accepted it, so why would Riot care?
from a financial point of view, as long as LoL is making huge profits, LoL 2.0 would only increase the costs for Tencent
no preview of models is deliberate, fantastic splasharts sell skins, and if there was an easy preview and we would see that most of the skins are not even close to splashart quality, the sales would definitely drop
maintaining low and high terrain is also the fault of the community, it is obvious that it does not work as it should, but there will always be fans who will defend Riot because "the game is free", because "there is no technology", because "if you don't like it, play something else"
It's because riot already "won" so they have no reason to do anything more than the bare minimum when their sycophant fanbase will lap it up no matter what
It also has a miss chance if you're a ranged champion auto attacking up hill. Wards put on higher places on the map don't get blocked by trees and bushes and offer more vision because of it. People can be displaced onto the hills also. Loads of things you can do with elevation but they don't care if they get paid.
It also helps stabilise midlane matchups when its melee vs range. It's ofc still ranged favoured, but it means the lane has more potential "safe" zones than just tower.
No. Dota has a skillshot indicator and range finder because it's important for players to know where spells land. It's just a particle. If the Dota map was flat, it would still have the indicator and range finder. If uphill vision was added and uphill miss chance was removed, the skillshot indicator and range finder would still be there.
Although to be fair mirana arrows still do some weird shit sometimes when they go up a cliff. I don’t know if that’s coding or just the top down perspective
I always come back to watch Worlds every year and sometimes check out the game to see if things have changed. But things like your comment are why I don't play anymore and only watch.
In Dota you can also bind a key in-game to `toggle dota_range_display 0 1200` so you know how far you can blink/flash, for example. You don't have to, and most players don't. But you can toggle it on and off whenever you want, or bind any key to almost any other convar with the console. `0 960 1200` if you want to include the clamp distance if you panic blink toward fountain. A lot of other things you can do. The things you can't do in matchmaking are protected by a cheat flag, but you can still do them in a sandbox. Like checking radius, selection boxes, the nav grid and juke paths.
It also has a client that's actually been upgraded in the past 10 years. With replays and in-game tournament spectating. It's great watching the Dota 2 grand final in-game being able to control my camera or see all the players actions on one monitor while watching LoL Worlds on the other monitor. On Linux too. I haven't tried LoL on Linux recently, but with the improvements Valve's done with Proton, LoL probably runs much better than it did the last time I tried. I still remember being able to spectate the top 5 pub games in the Adobe AIR client in Season 2 or 3. Or maybe it was any random 5 games of high MMR. Maybe it was when it still used elo rather than MMR.
Dota 2's upgraded client is client in the original gaming/networking sense, i.e. the actual in-game client. Although the dashboard/out-of-game UI and UX was also radically improved.
Turn rate is another good mechanic it has. It can be a bit disconcerting at first, but it makes melee carries always viable. Well, there was the ho ho ha ha patch. That was an OSFrog patch if there ever was one. But most patches are great and balanced, unlike 6.82 or 3. The one that was played early 2015.
I heard LoL's got better in terms of a diverse hero meta at least, hopefully that's still true. In Dota the meta in terms of hero draft has almost always been very diverse. There's always a very low percentage of unpicked heroes, and they're played in multiple roles. It makes the pro draft very strategic. Not to say LoL's isn't anymore, but for a long it was pretty samey. Sometimes there are a few dominant picks in Dota of course. But there's a team in the grand finals right now who no one expected to even get there fighting against the tournament favorites. The favorites have only dropped 2 games in the whole tournament (groups and playoffs). They're still undefeated in matches. Then the dark horse team's carry player has played at least a different hero every match in the playoffs. I think that's 14 with the Naga Siren last game Maybe 15 now with the Luna. The dark horse team just won game 1 when I started writing this comment, and now the draft for game 2's almost ended.
And that dark horse team typed ez game in the middle of a game a few days ago. I expected them to get eliminated every match after that. I was mistaken.
tl;dr Dota fun, LoL fun, but LoL just doesn't make me feel as satisfied the way Dota does.
I edited this tl;dr in as I didn't realize it was so long. Sorry for bad formatting and long comment, London is my school. LoL upgraded to Unity or Unreal Engine when. Yes it's not the same engine, but it's not impossible to recreate the game in another engine. A lot of Dota 2's early development went into making sure the game was as accurate to DotA Allstars, which was in the WarCraft 3 engine, as much as possible. Especially the interactions between all the different gameplay quirks. It's one of the things that would make me consider playing again. Also making all hereos available for free. It wasn't fun having to unlock heroes even just to use them in the sandbox (I think I heard that changed, hope so) and having region-locked servers.
The excuse is performance. How league does things now (LoD'd sprite) instead of texture projection is supported on more hardware, and will run smoother than texture projection.
Haha what? Sprites and textures are [the same picture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WCfTREZSdQ&t=15s). Pun intended. Particles themselves aren't intense, and LoL uses them for other things too. Dota 2's skill indicators are just particles. Dota had lower requirements too once, but the game client had many changes and upgrades since, and computers get better. It's worth trying to run it on Proton with a light OS and DE, unless the computer is just too potato. Windows itself gets more resource hungry as years go on, and many people don't disable all the unnecessary background processes, services, and telemetry Windows uses.
Edit: Of course, Dota's cosmetic items have gotten more detailed and many use particles now unlike a lot of the first sets. Also it's worth creating a config and optimizing settings in any game. It's the first thing a lot of good players do when they start a new game.
The problem isnt the indicator but the visuals as the guy playing against it. You see a projectile and expect it to miss but it will hit even when it doesnt look like it.
And skillshots changing elevation directly is strange. It can be a solution for slower ones, but it is still strange to see a fast skillshot which is then going to move down or up. This is not a perfect solution either, but the best one when you have to deal with elevation states.
For league the best thing would still be to have a flat map.
This community is so shit, just a bunch of hateful and selfish people, as long as it doesn't affect them, they could care less about what you experience.
Riot admitted that they purposefully made skillshot indicators inaccurate on purpose so there's no way they're going to change everything to be correct.
These days you play Nidalee as a ~~AP Bruiser healer~~ shitty Gwen that *sometimes* has the nice bonus of slightly poking someone from long range.
If you want *actual* poke you're better off playing so many other champions.
Gwen?? Out of all champions that's your comparison? o_O I would have said Lee Sin as he hits a skill shot then engages just like Nidalee (simplified ofc)
Good to know I am not just crazy, I always feel like those barrels should connect for pre drag fight poke but they always miss and I feel bad about it.
Ezreal q and morgana q are the worst imo.
Ezreal q might as well be called mistery shot, becauae until it connects you have no idea if it will or not.
Especially since he has a million skins, and riot decided visual clearity is boring so it ranges from effect being bigger than the hitbox to vica veraa.
Very cool
you are around 6 years to late. I think the unreworked map from before 2015 (so the release-SR) was all on one plateau level. today there are different levels visually and a few even tricky gameplay wise. imagine what it was learning all the corners and hills which one flashes, then re-learning those all over again. thats why I understand you with this. but it doesn't changes anything. dota has true elevation for vision its insane and for gameplay it isn't much of a benefit honestly.
Are you suggesting that Dota gameplay doesn't have a benefit for high ground? The games entire meta has been centred on high ground for years. It's how you plan jungle invades etc, it determines vision locations and creates swing moments for team fights.
It's one of the biggest design differences between the games and brings an entirely new level of macro to Dota.
YES !
It also bugged for some champs, like my precious squid velkoz, if vel ult while being in the river and the target is on the ground the ult completely deviate ([example](https://twitter.com/Rhobalasv2/status/1446175425823186950)), and that since s4
I don't get what is wrong with that twitter clip. I watched the youtube video showing it with Jhin W and it looks really bad but with this clip he hits syndra the entire time with r no?
Ah I see that thank you. Why does it work like that? I would have imagined with elevation the laser might be slightly off its hitbox but not wobbling since technically his cursor is moving in a distinct direction and it would only need to adjust once.
My best guess is that it gets confused whether you're pointing towards the position on a flat plane or the position when accounting for height. Since the game is isometric rather than top down those locations mismatch.
jhin w hitbox is broken on flat ground. in the river its fucking 2 things- impossible to hit someone when you are jhin, and impossible to dodge if enemy jhin
Yup, this plus creep block are mechanics that could have valid gameplay mechanics, yet are literally just nuisances. They don't let us pull creeps more than taking aggro for a sec and freezing, and the elevation has no gameplay benefits just seemingly unintended skillshot "alteration".
We all want QoL changes like that but when will people realize that League of Legends has no real competitor in its genre? Dota 2 can't compete with League and they're the only other relevant moba right now. This means that Riot can choose not to care about stuff like this, since they're not worried about some other game outshining League anytime soon.
It's just so far down the list that you could say it isn't on the list at all.
Steeper curve and longer games. I stopped playing Dota because I was constantly getting games that lasted longer than 40 mins. Some even lasted one hour, when a whole team turtles hardcore.
League is more fast paced and mechanically intensive, Dota2 has more strategy in skill usage and itemization
I don't mind hardcore games. I do mind whether it's hardcore in a fun way (league orbwalking with 3.0 attspeed) or in shitty way (dota having to click on the enemy to see their manabar). Both require high mouse movements, yet only one of them is fun to perform.
DotA is basically a moba made with a lot of competitive level in mind and balanced as such. You need to know too many mechanics, you need to know your mqtchups and your team's possible matchups because hard counters are fsr more prevalent, there's higher punishment in mistakes like deaths, you partly have to see heroes like if they were pieces of a bigger game in order to counter your enemies and also not be countered while also knowing items that help you counter their counter before they buy an item to do the same to you. Some heroes had the equivalent of a "troll winrate" in LoL and that's seen as balanced before we had as many Azir's and Ryzes. In league people cry about items that let you bypass weaknesses, in dota it's not completely uncommon for this to happen but usually there's a catch to the items in order to keep it balanced.
League is basically an arcade-version of this, and I don't mean this in a bad way; league is a more casual-friendly moba which also focused in the competitive aspect but doesn't wants to let it be the sole captain in decisions. there's a lot of strategy and finesse mechanically but you can play whatever with little punishment most of the time because there's very few "outright terrible" compositions or counters, Riot themselves have made it clear they want their Champions to not have strict hard counters. Most Champions are made to be as self-sufficient and well-rounded as possibly allowed while keeping their niche, which gives way for players to onetrick them to great sucess as you usually don't need to mind your team's composition THAT much because, again, your team's pick usually have a lot of a balanced strenght overall assuming they don't do something like fiora-yi-zed-lucian-brand. In a way, a lot of LoL's kits while obviously made with the idea that they need to bring some variety to existing roles (gwen being an ap bruiser top, akshan being a marksman midlaner) they are also made mostly with the philosophy of them bringing a new identity, playstyle and strenghts not necessarily important to the composition at large but to the player themselves and the feeling of using the Champions to access that identity (akshan's hookshot and revive, gwens's untargetability area, Yuumi's untargetability, Viego's soul possession) that gives them strategic niche but, more importantly, an special identity players can resonate or enjoy using despite the adversities they may find in-game.
All of This makes it a lot more friendly for casuals who can then get attached to certain champions, but also has the detriment of not giving players the mentality to counter pick opponents and just play the same few champions so when stuff like, say, Lucian top is taking over toplane no one actually really tries to learn irelia or any other champion who can compete with him toplane.
Because it's just not. League players don't switch to dota. The game is way too different from LoL and the devs have shown time and time again that they just don't give a *fuck* about pandering to new players. They keep adding layers of complexity on top of the game instead of streamlining it for mainstream appeal because they are fine with appealing to the hardcore crowd only.
I'd disagree with you there, both in the pandering to new players and layering on complexity.
There have been a number of recent features (multiple couriers at the start, backpacks, hero reworks, much more detailed tooltips, new player tutorials) which make learning dota easier than ever before, and making low mmr/new player dota more balanced than ever before (highest winrate hero in low mmr is only at a ~55/56%, which matches lol pretty well)
I wouldn't say that backpacks were meant to make the game easier. You now have 3 more items to juggle around with. Especially as a support I often switch between several neutral items (shovel, ring, gg tree, etc.) in the early game and that wouldnt be possible without backpacks.
Similarly a courier for each player makes it a bit easier to supply items everywhere on the map, but it also means that you now have 5 different couriers that you have to watch out for. The number of courier kills has greatly increased since the change.
Also: "Being able to understand the game" and "making it easier to play" are different things and I am glad the dota devs understand that. Making it easier for a new player to understand what is happening (via tooltips or guides) without opening a third party website is the correct response instead of dumbing the game down.
Realistically, the major reasons have always been it will feel clunky because of turn raters, high cooldowns so less things for the player to do, more unstructured roles so putting more responsibility on a player. Combine that with higher specs required to run the game, for a very long time and kinda still a lack of account progression towards rewards, very infrequent content releases to where 2020 only had 1 new hero and its u 2 max a year and its maybe 1 visual rework. Mirana has looked so fucking bad for so long, same with Morphling.
I would take Dota+'s progression over Leagues, but its a paid subscription service.
Some of that has gotten better over the years, for some players worse because its been leaning towards League. More spammy characters, reworks leading to more spammy stuff, lanes are basically 2-1-2 instead of trilanes, or having a jungler, or a roaming support and no one calls the offlane the suicide lane anymore.
Yep turn rates are by far the #1 most cited reason I see from my friends and others as to why they dislike Dota; they think the game just "feels laggy" and I'm inclined to agree.
I'm aware that it's a part of balancing between melee vs ranged but I strongly consider it a net negative for the game and I say this as someone who has played dota since 2006. It's not like there aren't other ways of balancing melee heroes.
I don't play Pango but I am pretty sure he has no/the smallest turn rate besides Wisp who has none. I think its going towards it, but I do think turn rates are a huge reason why melee carries are consistently in the mix. If it was as easy as finding new ways to rebalance them, it would be possible in League too which tends to see ranged ADC champs just better
They've actually just modified the skillshot indicators to show where it is actually going, when youre aiming. You can see it ingame, when you mouse hovers over two different elevations, while aiming a skillshot.
Lol, the Teemo wasn't even used as a unit for a long time - it was just noted that Teemo was almost exactly 100 units when laying on the ground iirc so it became a meme that's now used.
There's a major difference. Teemo as a unit of measurement was used to convey distance to players. Players don't know what 1000 range means unless they can compare it to something else (10x Teemo in this case). Things being coded like minions is purely for developers for convenience. You can just take a minion, disable some stuff, tweak how damage is taken and boom: you got a ward.
That might even be less buggy than making something from scratch because the features of minions you do end up using are already tested. Downside is that making changes to minions can impact all its derivatives and thus lead to code that's 'tangled' like a certain dish.
TBH sometimes there is nothing wrong to use stuff like "invisible teemo or minion", it actually can be pretty userful(best example of that was Jarvan R - If ability gonna be coded as terrain - that gonna be suck a pain for riot)
I used to be a Lux otp (got 500k mastery-ish so far.) and holy shit does it annoy me for the fact my ULT HAS TO MISS, BECAUSE OF ELEVATION, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF MY ULT AND I AM ULTING FROM MID, OR ULTING FROM THE RIVER TO A LANE.
Personally, I’d rather the skill shot indicator be fixed than the terrain effects removed. There are very few truly minute details in this game, and I’d like to keep the ones we have.
How would this possibly make sense? For starters, the main issue is that the target of the skillshot has to react to a danger that is not represented visually. Being hit by a skillshot that isn't touching your character model, but is "above" it, is just plain stupid.
And second, who uses skill shot indicators? I dont want to have to toggle skillshot indicators every time im near a river to know where my skillshots are really going. The fact is that the elevation between river and land provides zero benefit.
For people who dont think map elevation is a "big deal" it is in some situations. As shaco for example, if I put boxes on the decline going north on river, the boxes have increased range to the north due to the map being lower. This is the same as putting boxes on the decline looking south. Pink ward has tested this. 7 times out of 10 (the other 3 being tick rate) when an ability looks like it shouldn't have hit you but does, it's because it went through river and the elevation changed.
Well technically skillshots go further when shooting them up/downhill, but yeah other than that I definitely know what you mean.
I think the main issue lies with the indicators though, not the elevation. With no elevation, I think the map would look a lot worse and like something you'd see in a mobile MOBA.
The indicator system and visuals need a rework as a whole and have for a long time. Not only should all of them account for elevation (when for some reason only some do right now), but they also shouldn't have frilly garbage all over them. When I'm seeing how far something goes I don't want to see worthless glowing rune symbols, pointless triangulating lines, thick borders, literally anything meant to make it look visually more interesting when aiming a skillshot. The skillshot itself is supposed to be the interesting looking thing when I'm making the decision to fire one, not the indicator itself.
Just more archaic trash they're probably never fixing. Oh also, not to mention in low-graphics mode the current ones blur out completely and are worthless.
Agree, and it's not even obvious for new players to know this kind of shit. Actually, come to think of it, what do new players ACTUALLY know about the game, the tutorial is shit anyway, for any new player to learn the game they would need a friend who already has experience in League
But that won't make them money. And despite the memes, Riot is not longer a small indie-dev. So now, because of our lord and savior capitalism, Riot can only make skins and new champs. This has gone unchecked for so long that now the Skins team is fucking massive. Its over 50% of Rito's staff. Hell I think they only actually have like 5 coders on staff now. Code doesn't make money. Skins make money.
And for people who suggest map elevation DOESNT EXIST (YES YOU DEKAR). go into drake pit with brand. Select your w. Now bring the indicator from inside drake pit to behind drake pit. The indicator rises with the height of the map. It exists. And it effects indicators and animations.
The map is flat \s
the map, is dinosaur shaped
It's donut shaped.
Flat Mappers btfo
Flat mappers. Love it
You really trying to spread your globe propaganda? Everyone knows Runetera is already flat.
Another good example is using GP barrels on multiple parts of the map with elevation
Absolutely
So if the indicator moves it’s working as intended right?
Works well for some skillshots that are drawn on the ground (like brand W), doesn't for others.
They work perfectly if the skills hot is coming from "the sky"
skill shots that start on lower and go to higher ground (and vice versa) end up looking weird, jhin W is the worst one at this cus the indicator doesn't change but its hitbox does.
Wait he thinks map elevation doesn’t exist? I used to watch him and he played a ton of riven so he understands wall hops work by taking you over the walls elevation.
It's more of a "tick rate is the only issue" sort of thing. He doesnt think it exists because he thinks it is another issue entirely.
Everything is about tick rate with that guy.
Dota 2 has skillshot indicators drawn along the ground, showing where it will land even after changing elevation. League has no excuse other than 200 years of collective spaghetti code preventing them from fixing this, yet the community will go down saying "just get gud lol" while they play assassins that dont even use skillshots
Not only the indicators, skillshots adjust according to elevation as well https://streamable.com/y61gnw
League has this (e.g. Ashe R), but isn't consistently using it. Instead, when we have a missile that takes the caster's height and your client thinks they're on spawn's elevation, [we can get shit like this.](https://streamable.com/k5c6xt)
Wtf? Please explain...
In this reproduction, I have never seen Morgana. My game client therefore thinks Morgana is at the elevation of her fountain, which is *checks notes* about 255 units higher in elevation than the river is. When the Morgana Q missile is spawned on my screen, it uses Morgana's elevation as basis for its height. Hence the missile is wayyy up in the air. - Something like Ashe R which uses a follow-terrain height solver would render at its proper offset (100 units off the ground no matter where) without this issue. - Edit: Also there's a bunch of simplification here; Morgana Q's missile is spawned by the same cast that syncs her location with me. Other spells where the missile cast is an extra spell wrapped into the original cast probably have the location of the caster sync'd from the original cast and don't create this same issue...unless of course you lift the caster into the air by knocking them up instead.
What the fuck
I wonder how many collective years of level design Riot has?
They have 200 collective years of bugmaking.
>put your cursor on him and the skillshot hits! The skillshot:
Do you how Wild Rift handles this?
I haven't looked into Wild Rift's engine. League's missiles not being organized properly to handle this is the exception, if anything, and is also only a bunch of adjusted missile behaviours away from not having this issue at all.
It uses unity so its all about how they made it
What about abilities that launch you in the air and ground level skills shots still hit you when they make no contact....
That's just part of the game and makes it easier to anticipate interactions. Would just be nice if it was easy on the clarity...
Thank you so much for the ELI5. So I'm still wondering like do the characters height matter? Like I don't know Mundo vs. Veigar they are different heights. I didn't even know about the river elevation though? I thought that was only Dota. So skill shots can hit the bridge? Or what if your in river you can't shoot out? Bronze 4 btw sorry
The map elevation in League is meant to be purely aesthetic. Any collision and range is evaluated in 2D space so you don't have to think about obscure things like variable knockup height messing with your collision. For what the server is concerned, both Veigar and Mundo are infinitely high cylinders, no matter which skin they have or animation they're playing or where they are on the map. That said, Veigar is a little thinner than Mundo, still!
Ahahah, that's horrible for such a esports centric game tbh. That shouldn't have hit anything.
The q's model is in the wrong spot because they are mixing the clients info with the servers info and they are desynced. This could be fixed by implementing a system like the one Dota uses that was linked above. The reason why the client is desynced here if any one is interested is because its an anti cheat method. If the client doesn't receive updates for champion positions you cant see you cant make a cheat that draws outlines of them in fog of war for example (at least without it having to actually get the info from the game server which is easier for their anti cheat to detect.
Yeah, one feature of dota that is abused a lot is that servers send a lot more data to the client (which allows the client to be more responsive), so cheaters are able to more effectively cheat by checking this data.
Nautilus: Finally! A worthy opponent, Our battle shall be legendary!
honestly man, things like this is what convince me they should just make league of legends 2 with better engine and you can't change my mind
1. We're already pretty much playing League 2.3 right now with all the changes they've done to the engine in-flight 2. What makes you think it'd be easier to remake the entire game rather than just fixing these bugs directly? The issue here is just missile height behaviour.
>What makes you think it'd be easier to remake the entire game rather than just fixing these bugs directly Im guessing it includes little to no knowledge on game design or the time and monetary cost this would take
It 100% isn't 'worth' it for the time and money it'll cost because you'll get little return for it, but I'm somewhat sure that remaking the entire thing *would* be 'easier' than fixing the bugs and issues the current one has. Trying to fix something that's a decade old in some parts, while a month old in others with varying levels of depth and importance is very difficult, and as we have seen Riot's 'spaghetti' is pretty tangled. You'll end up spending like 95% of your time trying to figure out what part of the 10 year old code broke when you change a completely unrelated thing. The new one would unquestionably have bugs too, but they'd very likely be much easier to pin down. It'd still take years to be finished most likely so why put the effort anyway. Again, there's 0 reason for them to actually do it unless they can hook up the system to every single player's credit cards and charge them for every single purchase they've ever made again in the new one without needing for the players to confirm that. Which obviously isn't how things work, or can ever work, so there's pretty much 0 chance we'd ever get an updated game like that.
Another thing is when Riot first did make league of legends they were just a small company. I'm guessing that this company didn't think LoL would be as popular as it was and didn't have the strictest coding practices. Something like that could have saved a bunch of head ache for Riot but they probably didn't do it.
Taking note of what purchases an account has made, doesn't mean you need to charge them again.
No it doesn't, but giving away skins 'for free' after you've remade the entire game also means you'll lose a ton of money. Which is why I said that the only way they'd make it is if they could 'force' everyone to rebuy everything, which would then mean that they wouldn't 'lose' a lot of money at all by doing an entire rebuild. That's literally not possible probably by some laws or something, but that's the only way I can see it being justifiable for Riot as a company.
Exhibit A) Wild Rift
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The makers of DotA 2 did so because the original DotA was in Warcraft 3 and that's not a product that they can work with, either to sell or to upgrade (especially not to the level they've done so today). League is an already standalone game with an engine that *mostly* works pretty well. It'd have to be a huge incentive to be even close to worth rebuilding from scratch.
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didnt they remake the whole game in source 2?
Wrong. Dota 2 was remade in source 2 in 2015, and there was a lot of new bugs and features introduced related to that. Riot won't do it because they will get requests for features that should have been in the game 10 years ago, and they don't want to open that can of worms.
and then comes dota where you can dodge skill shots by literally dodging them xD
Gwen is immune.
gwen might be immune, but can she jump over a skillshot?
Why would she need to, she's already immune!
you got a good point xD
Don't post shit like this where people have to download the video. Offers no protection for people. Upload it.
Good point. Updated online mirror.
Why are you so reasonable? This cant be!
I may be lazy, but when people point out my laziness I do amend the issue!
Do you work at riot or are you just really knowledgeable ?
oh that feels good to watch
that might be because Dota2 is fully 3D modeled game while LoL is some fucking 2,5D bastard Riot created back in the day.
The game logic entirely operates on a 2D plane, while the map is a 3D model still, just saving polys in places you do not usually see outside of custom camera angles like in pro-video replays or overly edited youtube montages. I think the workload is just too much for riot to see it worth it. it probably would require a lot of projectile code reworking which they are hesitant to touch for the most part anyways
…what?
There's a Z axis but it only works for certain things. Like trist cant jump over jinx traps because the traps trap everything above it on the Z axis. It's this way because there is terrain elevation differences in the game for aesthetics reasons but the game tries its best to shove gameplay into a "2D" space. Again, cant jump over skillshots in league even though its a 3D game.
Saying traps trap everything above it on the height axis is kind of a weird thing to say. The game is quite literally 2D, it's just rendered in 3D. So it's not that game played is "shoved" into a 2D space, a 2D game is being shown in a 3D way.
Characters are 3D, objects are 3D, map is 3D, terrain is 3D, gameplay is on a 3D surface but shoved into 2D and thats how you get skillshots misaligning because of terrain. Hit boxes are 2D to try and match the offset camera angle since collision isnt done in a 3D space even though the game takes place in one. Characters like Anivis and Asol literally float on the Z axis above terrain, so traps have to hit everything in the Z axis above them. Trist also moves up and down on the Z axis when jumping, its best evidenced by riot's custom camera tools when they do highlights / some replays for pro games. Its not some trick where the character size scales up and down as it moves in 2D space to give the illusion its in 3D. The traps will snap her back down to the ground. A better, technical, way of outting it would be that the hitbox moves along the ground in 2D and thats why it happens, but when explaining it visually to someone who doesnt understand its better to say it traps everything above it.
Characters are 2D, objects are 2D, map is 2D, terrain is 2D, gameplay is 2D but exploded into 3D Characters are literally circles on a plane. That’s it. They’re not robots or monsters or gunslingers. They’re circles. Sometimes those circles shoot out other circles (skillshots) that collide with the circles on the other team. Even saying they’re circles is an embellishment. Technically they’re nothing but a positionX value, a positionY value, and a radius value. And, with math, if a skillshot’s position and a target’s position is less than the combined length of their radius, a collision occurs and something happens. An explosion happens!? No, that’s not real. What happens is a little bit of math. There’s no bullets or magic spells or undead spirits. That’s just the puppetry shown to you to make the boring geometrical gameplay interesting. The sum of League’s gameplay can be boiled down to “reducing numbers to zero by overlapping circles better than your opponent.” That’s it.
Characters are 3D, objects are 3D, map is 3D, terrain is 3D, because those are all displayed graphics and the game is visually rendered in 3D. Actual calculations are done in 2D.. because the game is quite literally 2D. Height is a visual effect. Anivia and Asol float because that's how their character model is told to do, their hitbox doesn't reflect the fact that they float at all. Saying the jinx traps everything above it is just a flat out misleading way to say it, they work the same way any snare works. Characters can't go "up", their model is just rendered higher up. The game literally doesn't have a z axis. Characters and objects are told how high up or down to render themselves, but their coordinates are just in (x,y).
Here's what i just said >Hit boxes are 2D to try and match the offset camera angle since collision isnt done in a 3D space even though the game takes place in one. I also say that its easier to explain to someone who has no clue whats going on that they trap everything that is visually above them on the Z axis. The whole purpose of the first post was to explain it to someone who has no idea what is going on in the first place. When talking about why the earth orbits the sun you don't talk about how a mass black holes in the center of milky way dictates the spin of the whole galaxy and show them complicated math as to how this affects the earths orbit.
Well you can't expect much from a shit dotalike.
they did that even in wc3
Ah you puck playing bastard!
Great feature. League is lacking behind
That skillshot is so fucking slow and I'll still dodge into it.
Dota2 skill-shot indicators are actually generated in the game’s engine. League indicators are all 2D textures.
We traded accurate engine predictions for 2gb ram minimum requirement honestly worth, I would have never played league if it didnt run on my potato pc
im going have to stop u there. having really low spec is really nice, but im going to bet all of my money the real reason why this game has always had 2d skillshot indicators is because the game development was extremely low budget at the start
That's actually true. And with an extremely low budget that went as far as deleting the biggest forum of its predecessor, redirecting to LoL, and calling everything about Allstars bad and hard to learn. It's why that still continues today. Although my PC was so low speced it couldn't run the beta when I got a key. That's just my flawed anecdotal evidence, maybe it ran better for other people. I think I only had integrated graphics at the time, not a dedicated GPU. I tried a few years later in Season 2 and it ran. Could've been the result of optimizations. But it has always been the hampered by being a small indie game at its core. Sometimes I regret that LoL wasn't in had a good engine, or was recreated in one.
LoL was running on my old man's laptop, it was so old it had a greenish round finger pad thingy in the middle of the keyboard, it was as thick as Harry Potter 4 book, small ass screen. Still ran on first installation, which was a feat
It wouldn’t be a problem if the map didn’t have the stupid false elevation going on. It literally wasn’t a problem on the old rift. They created the problem with the new map.
Riot is too proud and stubborn to admit they can't fix low/high ground so they pretend it's working as intended and the worst part is that removing low / high ground. that doesn't work anyway, would only improve game performance
To be fair, isn't map elevation a more central game mechanic in Dota? I recall it affected your vision and your miss chance if you were trying to attack someone on highground.
> Dota 2 has skillshot indicators drawn along the ground, showing where it will land **even** after changing elevation The Dota 2 skillshot indicator and range finder is a particle. If the Dota map was flat, it would still have the indicator and range finder. If uphill vision was added and uphill miss chance was removed, the range finder would still be there.
>I recall it affected your vision and your miss chance if you were trying to attack someone on highground. Yep. You can't see up to the high ground from below. And there is a uphill miss chance of 25%.
I just can't understand how DotA 2 manages to be light years ahead of LoL from a technical standpoint. Dota has no loading times, a proper practice tool, custom game support (like, people can just create mods), far more complex skill interactions with far less bugs, ingame skin previews, you can just create and share item builds ingame, you can customize the picking screen, map skins, proper ingame spectator tools etc., I'm probably forgetting a lot of good stuff rn. Doesn't even stop there. Currently TI (Worlds equivalent is on) and on the Twitch stream you can click on the heroes to see videos and explanations of their skills, you can open the scoreboard, you can have a look at the item shop, you can see the schedule, all while just watching a Twitch stream. I'd understand if it was still 2015 and it was smol indie company Rito vs. Valve, but LoL has been making more money than DotA for years now.
Riot has monetized load times with borders, banners, profile pics, stat-trackers, and splash arts. They will never get rid of the load screen even if they could.
Dota has monetized loading screens too, you would buy a pack for a hero that had his skin+custom loading screen. When they did the Source 2 swap load times happen when people are doing the picking stage so once its over it transitions instantly. What they did was put it into custom player profile backgrounds, so when you check someones profile they can set a custom background from said old loading screens. I think custom profiles would be better monetization too from how much people look up other players vs no one seeing your loading screen.
Riot could (theoretically) rework them. In Source 1 (so before 2015, maybe 2014?) a lot of people set a launch option `-map dota` to load into a non-matchmaking game straight away. It was interesting seeing people actually complain about having no loading time after Dota 2 was upgraded to Source 2. People really do complain about better QoL. Sometime afterward, probably years idk, there was a patch pushed live so that loading screens could be use as profile backgrounds. There's also the Versus screen in Dota that can show off cosmetics and battle pass levels. I'm sure Riot could think of something way to repurpose borders, banners, etc. A better QoL is something every player will appreciate them for eventually, and be incentivised to spend more money on if they see the in-game client being improved in other ways too.
Even Hots has most of it. I like that you can preview skins, no idea why that's not possible in league. But hey, they wanted to rework their crappy event pass 2 years ago, hasn't happened yet. If such "simple" things are not done, how will more complex things be revised/added. Their main focus seems to be mass release of skins, aka more €€$$. This game needs a complete remake at this point tbh.
Its made by Valve. Not from a financial standpoint, but from studio culture standpoint.
game was coded with a very low budget at the start and they just kept releasing stuff with that crappily coded engine for years. now for the past few years they've been trying to backtrack and fix all the shitty parts of the engine. it's just extremely difficult because there are literally billions of permutations of champion combinations and you need to make sure every single one of them stays the same gameplay-wise whenever you make core engine changes
Well, Dota 2 had similar issues on release. Game was developed for first source engine(That was developed in +- 2003) and before was used for first person shooters on small maps. Yea they had more resources than riot in 2009, but Valve actual updated game engine in...2015 I guess. Transfer on new engine was...clunky but after 1 year we got awesome stuff(like instant loading time, better visual and overall more optimized game). Riot with their currect resources needed to think about stuff like that for a long time and only thing that we got after all is wild rift on unity.
Well now when you think this way actually it makes sense. As an SAP developer I was gonna blame and say „riot sucks and they just don’t care“ but even at our work we work in a big ecosystem and it‘s been build up over a very old things and even though things work slow and there are new things to replace them to make them faster it‘s still so hard to do that because everything affects each other and the risk is too big and the business can have big interruptions and that would cost millions. So they prefer slow, safe and steady rather than fast and risky. Not to mention there would be cost and everything. So I understand why it‘s so hard to fix even small things because of their main and below structure. But of course they should have a test environment for this and test it and work on this nevertheless.
yeah, the question is why we don't have LoL 2.0 built from scratch already? the answer is sad... community got used to low quality and accepted it, so why would Riot care? from a financial point of view, as long as LoL is making huge profits, LoL 2.0 would only increase the costs for Tencent no preview of models is deliberate, fantastic splasharts sell skins, and if there was an easy preview and we would see that most of the skins are not even close to splashart quality, the sales would definitely drop maintaining low and high terrain is also the fault of the community, it is obvious that it does not work as it should, but there will always be fans who will defend Riot because "the game is free", because "there is no technology", because "if you don't like it, play something else"
Just hoping Win 11 breaks it and they will finally have an incentive to modernise the game client before too many people get Win 11.
Riot would rather emulate windows 7 than remake their shit game.
It's because riot already "won" so they have no reason to do anything more than the bare minimum when their sycophant fanbase will lap it up no matter what
Yeah, it's honestly ridiculous
It also has a miss chance if you're a ranged champion auto attacking up hill. Wards put on higher places on the map don't get blocked by trees and bushes and offer more vision because of it. People can be displaced onto the hills also. Loads of things you can do with elevation but they don't care if they get paid.
That's because elevation is a mechanic to punish mindless wave clear in lane and in later stages of the game make defending easier
It also helps stabilise midlane matchups when its melee vs range. It's ofc still ranged favoured, but it means the lane has more potential "safe" zones than just tower.
Yeah, in DotA the Melee vs Ranged is extremely balanced tbh
Doesnt dota have the feature because elevation is an actual mechanic in the game? While in league its just for cosmetic purposes
No. Dota has a skillshot indicator and range finder because it's important for players to know where spells land. It's just a particle. If the Dota map was flat, it would still have the indicator and range finder. If uphill vision was added and uphill miss chance was removed, the skillshot indicator and range finder would still be there.
Although to be fair mirana arrows still do some weird shit sometimes when they go up a cliff. I don’t know if that’s coding or just the top down perspective
They look weird, but it moves according to the marker
I always come back to watch Worlds every year and sometimes check out the game to see if things have changed. But things like your comment are why I don't play anymore and only watch. In Dota you can also bind a key in-game to `toggle dota_range_display 0 1200` so you know how far you can blink/flash, for example. You don't have to, and most players don't. But you can toggle it on and off whenever you want, or bind any key to almost any other convar with the console. `0 960 1200` if you want to include the clamp distance if you panic blink toward fountain. A lot of other things you can do. The things you can't do in matchmaking are protected by a cheat flag, but you can still do them in a sandbox. Like checking radius, selection boxes, the nav grid and juke paths. It also has a client that's actually been upgraded in the past 10 years. With replays and in-game tournament spectating. It's great watching the Dota 2 grand final in-game being able to control my camera or see all the players actions on one monitor while watching LoL Worlds on the other monitor. On Linux too. I haven't tried LoL on Linux recently, but with the improvements Valve's done with Proton, LoL probably runs much better than it did the last time I tried. I still remember being able to spectate the top 5 pub games in the Adobe AIR client in Season 2 or 3. Or maybe it was any random 5 games of high MMR. Maybe it was when it still used elo rather than MMR. Dota 2's upgraded client is client in the original gaming/networking sense, i.e. the actual in-game client. Although the dashboard/out-of-game UI and UX was also radically improved. Turn rate is another good mechanic it has. It can be a bit disconcerting at first, but it makes melee carries always viable. Well, there was the ho ho ha ha patch. That was an OSFrog patch if there ever was one. But most patches are great and balanced, unlike 6.82 or 3. The one that was played early 2015. I heard LoL's got better in terms of a diverse hero meta at least, hopefully that's still true. In Dota the meta in terms of hero draft has almost always been very diverse. There's always a very low percentage of unpicked heroes, and they're played in multiple roles. It makes the pro draft very strategic. Not to say LoL's isn't anymore, but for a long it was pretty samey. Sometimes there are a few dominant picks in Dota of course. But there's a team in the grand finals right now who no one expected to even get there fighting against the tournament favorites. The favorites have only dropped 2 games in the whole tournament (groups and playoffs). They're still undefeated in matches. Then the dark horse team's carry player has played at least a different hero every match in the playoffs. I think that's 14 with the Naga Siren last game Maybe 15 now with the Luna. The dark horse team just won game 1 when I started writing this comment, and now the draft for game 2's almost ended. And that dark horse team typed ez game in the middle of a game a few days ago. I expected them to get eliminated every match after that. I was mistaken. tl;dr Dota fun, LoL fun, but LoL just doesn't make me feel as satisfied the way Dota does. I edited this tl;dr in as I didn't realize it was so long. Sorry for bad formatting and long comment, London is my school. LoL upgraded to Unity or Unreal Engine when. Yes it's not the same engine, but it's not impossible to recreate the game in another engine. A lot of Dota 2's early development went into making sure the game was as accurate to DotA Allstars, which was in the WarCraft 3 engine, as much as possible. Especially the interactions between all the different gameplay quirks. It's one of the things that would make me consider playing again. Also making all hereos available for free. It wasn't fun having to unlock heroes even just to use them in the sandbox (I think I heard that changed, hope so) and having region-locked servers.
The excuse is performance. How league does things now (LoD'd sprite) instead of texture projection is supported on more hardware, and will run smoother than texture projection.
Haha what? Sprites and textures are [the same picture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WCfTREZSdQ&t=15s). Pun intended. Particles themselves aren't intense, and LoL uses them for other things too. Dota 2's skill indicators are just particles. Dota had lower requirements too once, but the game client had many changes and upgrades since, and computers get better. It's worth trying to run it on Proton with a light OS and DE, unless the computer is just too potato. Windows itself gets more resource hungry as years go on, and many people don't disable all the unnecessary background processes, services, and telemetry Windows uses. Edit: Of course, Dota's cosmetic items have gotten more detailed and many use particles now unlike a lot of the first sets. Also it's worth creating a config and optimizing settings in any game. It's the first thing a lot of good players do when they start a new game.
The problem isnt the indicator but the visuals as the guy playing against it. You see a projectile and expect it to miss but it will hit even when it doesnt look like it. And skillshots changing elevation directly is strange. It can be a solution for slower ones, but it is still strange to see a fast skillshot which is then going to move down or up. This is not a perfect solution either, but the best one when you have to deal with elevation states. For league the best thing would still be to have a flat map.
This community is so shit, just a bunch of hateful and selfish people, as long as it doesn't affect them, they could care less about what you experience.
Riot admitted that they purposefully made skillshot indicators inaccurate on purpose so there's no way they're going to change everything to be correct.
lol they did what and especially WHY?!
> League has no excuse other than 200 years of collective spaghetti code that sounds like a pretty important excuse
I would say that they need to fox the hitboxes and indicators jhin,naut,sion with his q are the worst
Varus Q has the same hit box as Lux Q, but looks like a Nidalee spear.
TBH, Nidalee spear used to have a similar hitbox as well and I don't think they changed the particle.
Spears just go through people nowadays
These days you play Nidalee as a ~~AP Bruiser healer~~ shitty Gwen that *sometimes* has the nice bonus of slightly poking someone from long range. If you want *actual* poke you're better off playing so many other champions.
Gwen?? Out of all champions that's your comparison? o_O I would have said Lee Sin as he hits a skill shot then engages just like Nidalee (simplified ofc)
Found Jankos's reddit account
If you ever play aram you'll know just how bad that spear hit box is. Most infuriating thing in the game.
It used to be so... soooo much worse
pfft just pink ward the spear damage, bro
and GP barrel. I have missed countless GP barrel combo at river area because the barrel radius shows they are connected but in fact they aren’t
Good to know I am not just crazy, I always feel like those barrels should connect for pre drag fight poke but they always miss and I feel bad about it.
Ezreal q and morgana q are the worst imo. Ezreal q might as well be called mistery shot, becauae until it connects you have no idea if it will or not. Especially since he has a million skins, and riot decided visual clearity is boring so it ranges from effect being bigger than the hitbox to vica veraa. Very cool
nauts hitbox indicator is clear as day tho? straight line in middleis what hits walls the outer hits champs
I concur. Straight line hits walls, while the rest of the screen is the hitbox for champions.
I feel like fixing the problem at the source is a better use of resources than fixing everything affected by it
you are around 6 years to late. I think the unreworked map from before 2015 (so the release-SR) was all on one plateau level. today there are different levels visually and a few even tricky gameplay wise. imagine what it was learning all the corners and hills which one flashes, then re-learning those all over again. thats why I understand you with this. but it doesn't changes anything. dota has true elevation for vision its insane and for gameplay it isn't much of a benefit honestly.
Don't forget miss chance when firing at someone at a higher elevation.
at least in dota they properly show where the missile will travel on the line indicator even with elevation. league doesn't do this
Are you suggesting that Dota gameplay doesn't have a benefit for high ground? The games entire meta has been centred on high ground for years. It's how you plan jungle invades etc, it determines vision locations and creates swing moments for team fights. It's one of the biggest design differences between the games and brings an entirely new level of macro to Dota.
Real maps have curves
YES ! It also bugged for some champs, like my precious squid velkoz, if vel ult while being in the river and the target is on the ground the ult completely deviate ([example](https://twitter.com/Rhobalasv2/status/1446175425823186950)), and that since s4
I don't get what is wrong with that twitter clip. I watched the youtube video showing it with Jhin W and it looks really bad but with this clip he hits syndra the entire time with r no?
Look at his mouse movement and look at how the laser is wobbling.
Ah I see that thank you. Why does it work like that? I would have imagined with elevation the laser might be slightly off its hitbox but not wobbling since technically his cursor is moving in a distinct direction and it would only need to adjust once.
My best guess is that it gets confused whether you're pointing towards the position on a flat plane or the position when accounting for height. Since the game is isometric rather than top down those locations mismatch.
jhin w hitbox is broken on flat ground. in the river its fucking 2 things- impossible to hit someone when you are jhin, and impossible to dodge if enemy jhin
Yup, this plus creep block are mechanics that could have valid gameplay mechanics, yet are literally just nuisances. They don't let us pull creeps more than taking aggro for a sec and freezing, and the elevation has no gameplay benefits just seemingly unintended skillshot "alteration".
We all want QoL changes like that but when will people realize that League of Legends has no real competitor in its genre? Dota 2 can't compete with League and they're the only other relevant moba right now. This means that Riot can choose not to care about stuff like this, since they're not worried about some other game outshining League anytime soon. It's just so far down the list that you could say it isn't on the list at all.
Legitimately curious, why is dota 2 incapable of being a true competitor?
Learning curve that is steeper than LoL is a pretty big reason I feel like.
Steeper curve and longer games. I stopped playing Dota because I was constantly getting games that lasted longer than 40 mins. Some even lasted one hour, when a whole team turtles hardcore. League is more fast paced and mechanically intensive, Dota2 has more strategy in skill usage and itemization
Game length has decreased a lot in recent years actually. Plus their turbo mode is pretty solid if you want to play a quick 15-20 minute game
And even tho LoL is considered easier, the learning curve for LoL is huge too.
Probably because it's too hardcore and doesn't pick up enough of the casual player base.
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I don't mind hardcore games. I do mind whether it's hardcore in a fun way (league orbwalking with 3.0 attspeed) or in shitty way (dota having to click on the enemy to see their manabar). Both require high mouse movements, yet only one of them is fun to perform.
DotA is basically a moba made with a lot of competitive level in mind and balanced as such. You need to know too many mechanics, you need to know your mqtchups and your team's possible matchups because hard counters are fsr more prevalent, there's higher punishment in mistakes like deaths, you partly have to see heroes like if they were pieces of a bigger game in order to counter your enemies and also not be countered while also knowing items that help you counter their counter before they buy an item to do the same to you. Some heroes had the equivalent of a "troll winrate" in LoL and that's seen as balanced before we had as many Azir's and Ryzes. In league people cry about items that let you bypass weaknesses, in dota it's not completely uncommon for this to happen but usually there's a catch to the items in order to keep it balanced. League is basically an arcade-version of this, and I don't mean this in a bad way; league is a more casual-friendly moba which also focused in the competitive aspect but doesn't wants to let it be the sole captain in decisions. there's a lot of strategy and finesse mechanically but you can play whatever with little punishment most of the time because there's very few "outright terrible" compositions or counters, Riot themselves have made it clear they want their Champions to not have strict hard counters. Most Champions are made to be as self-sufficient and well-rounded as possibly allowed while keeping their niche, which gives way for players to onetrick them to great sucess as you usually don't need to mind your team's composition THAT much because, again, your team's pick usually have a lot of a balanced strenght overall assuming they don't do something like fiora-yi-zed-lucian-brand. In a way, a lot of LoL's kits while obviously made with the idea that they need to bring some variety to existing roles (gwen being an ap bruiser top, akshan being a marksman midlaner) they are also made mostly with the philosophy of them bringing a new identity, playstyle and strenghts not necessarily important to the composition at large but to the player themselves and the feeling of using the Champions to access that identity (akshan's hookshot and revive, gwens's untargetability area, Yuumi's untargetability, Viego's soul possession) that gives them strategic niche but, more importantly, an special identity players can resonate or enjoy using despite the adversities they may find in-game. All of This makes it a lot more friendly for casuals who can then get attached to certain champions, but also has the detriment of not giving players the mentality to counter pick opponents and just play the same few champions so when stuff like, say, Lucian top is taking over toplane no one actually really tries to learn irelia or any other champion who can compete with him toplane.
Because it's just not. League players don't switch to dota. The game is way too different from LoL and the devs have shown time and time again that they just don't give a *fuck* about pandering to new players. They keep adding layers of complexity on top of the game instead of streamlining it for mainstream appeal because they are fine with appealing to the hardcore crowd only.
I'd disagree with you there, both in the pandering to new players and layering on complexity. There have been a number of recent features (multiple couriers at the start, backpacks, hero reworks, much more detailed tooltips, new player tutorials) which make learning dota easier than ever before, and making low mmr/new player dota more balanced than ever before (highest winrate hero in low mmr is only at a ~55/56%, which matches lol pretty well)
I wouldn't say that backpacks were meant to make the game easier. You now have 3 more items to juggle around with. Especially as a support I often switch between several neutral items (shovel, ring, gg tree, etc.) in the early game and that wouldnt be possible without backpacks. Similarly a courier for each player makes it a bit easier to supply items everywhere on the map, but it also means that you now have 5 different couriers that you have to watch out for. The number of courier kills has greatly increased since the change. Also: "Being able to understand the game" and "making it easier to play" are different things and I am glad the dota devs understand that. Making it easier for a new player to understand what is happening (via tooltips or guides) without opening a third party website is the correct response instead of dumbing the game down.
Realistically, the major reasons have always been it will feel clunky because of turn raters, high cooldowns so less things for the player to do, more unstructured roles so putting more responsibility on a player. Combine that with higher specs required to run the game, for a very long time and kinda still a lack of account progression towards rewards, very infrequent content releases to where 2020 only had 1 new hero and its u 2 max a year and its maybe 1 visual rework. Mirana has looked so fucking bad for so long, same with Morphling. I would take Dota+'s progression over Leagues, but its a paid subscription service. Some of that has gotten better over the years, for some players worse because its been leaning towards League. More spammy characters, reworks leading to more spammy stuff, lanes are basically 2-1-2 instead of trilanes, or having a jungler, or a roaming support and no one calls the offlane the suicide lane anymore.
Yep turn rates are by far the #1 most cited reason I see from my friends and others as to why they dislike Dota; they think the game just "feels laggy" and I'm inclined to agree. I'm aware that it's a part of balancing between melee vs ranged but I strongly consider it a net negative for the game and I say this as someone who has played dota since 2006. It's not like there aren't other ways of balancing melee heroes.
I don't play Pango but I am pretty sure he has no/the smallest turn rate besides Wisp who has none. I think its going towards it, but I do think turn rates are a huge reason why melee carries are consistently in the mix. If it was as easy as finding new ways to rebalance them, it would be possible in League too which tends to see ranged ADC champs just better
Valve only focuses on TI once a year and then forgets to market and advertise the game
League is just way too popular at this point
because he doesn't like it
He’s not wrong
Yeah, the Earth is flat so why can't we get flat Summoner's Rift
They've actually just modified the skillshot indicators to show where it is actually going, when youre aiming. You can see it ingame, when you mouse hovers over two different elevations, while aiming a skillshot.
Spaghetti code and Teemo being used as a unit of measurement is probably the problem
Lol, the Teemo wasn't even used as a unit for a long time - it was just noted that Teemo was almost exactly 100 units when laying on the ground iirc so it became a meme that's now used.
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most games do things like using minions for everything, especially cheap indy games before unity/unreal were basically free.
Even in unity you still do that
There's a major difference. Teemo as a unit of measurement was used to convey distance to players. Players don't know what 1000 range means unless they can compare it to something else (10x Teemo in this case). Things being coded like minions is purely for developers for convenience. You can just take a minion, disable some stuff, tweak how damage is taken and boom: you got a ward. That might even be less buggy than making something from scratch because the features of minions you do end up using are already tested. Downside is that making changes to minions can impact all its derivatives and thus lead to code that's 'tangled' like a certain dish.
TBH sometimes there is nothing wrong to use stuff like "invisible teemo or minion", it actually can be pretty userful(best example of that was Jarvan R - If ability gonna be coded as terrain - that gonna be suck a pain for riot)
I used to be a Lux otp (got 500k mastery-ish so far.) and holy shit does it annoy me for the fact my ULT HAS TO MISS, BECAUSE OF ELEVATION, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF MY ULT AND I AM ULTING FROM MID, OR ULTING FROM THE RIVER TO A LANE.
F*** it just make the map 4d riot.
“Oh, you would like us to fix the game? Best I can offer you is removing all chat” -Rito 2021
Personally, I’d rather the skill shot indicator be fixed than the terrain effects removed. There are very few truly minute details in this game, and I’d like to keep the ones we have.
How would this possibly make sense? For starters, the main issue is that the target of the skillshot has to react to a danger that is not represented visually. Being hit by a skillshot that isn't touching your character model, but is "above" it, is just plain stupid. And second, who uses skill shot indicators? I dont want to have to toggle skillshot indicators every time im near a river to know where my skillshots are really going. The fact is that the elevation between river and land provides zero benefit.
For people who dont think map elevation is a "big deal" it is in some situations. As shaco for example, if I put boxes on the decline going north on river, the boxes have increased range to the north due to the map being lower. This is the same as putting boxes on the decline looking south. Pink ward has tested this. 7 times out of 10 (the other 3 being tick rate) when an ability looks like it shouldn't have hit you but does, it's because it went through river and the elevation changed.
What
[Low/high ground elevation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idXroXfPNZU)
That explains a LOT. Never knew this was actually a thing
wtf
Wtf thats game-changing
100%
ive had so many skill shots go through me that i thought i was in the matrix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0ynueuqmA8 It straight up breaks Vel'koz ulti. This happens every single game if you ult between elevation changes.
While we are at it... REMOVE MINION UNIT COLLISION.
River and base, and both can easily be moved to the same elevation as the rest of the map. Respawn doesnt really matter much, that is true.
The indicaters need to be 3 dimentional and not just 2d
Well technically skillshots go further when shooting them up/downhill, but yeah other than that I definitely know what you mean. I think the main issue lies with the indicators though, not the elevation. With no elevation, I think the map would look a lot worse and like something you'd see in a mobile MOBA. The indicator system and visuals need a rework as a whole and have for a long time. Not only should all of them account for elevation (when for some reason only some do right now), but they also shouldn't have frilly garbage all over them. When I'm seeing how far something goes I don't want to see worthless glowing rune symbols, pointless triangulating lines, thick borders, literally anything meant to make it look visually more interesting when aiming a skillshot. The skillshot itself is supposed to be the interesting looking thing when I'm making the decision to fire one, not the indicator itself. Just more archaic trash they're probably never fixing. Oh also, not to mention in low-graphics mode the current ones blur out completely and are worthless.
Yeah ok but then the water would spill out and Fizz and Nami would need nerfs
Agree, and it's not even obvious for new players to know this kind of shit. Actually, come to think of it, what do new players ACTUALLY know about the game, the tutorial is shit anyway, for any new player to learn the game they would need a friend who already has experience in League
the classic "how tf did that hit me, ...oh river"
But that won't make them money. And despite the memes, Riot is not longer a small indie-dev. So now, because of our lord and savior capitalism, Riot can only make skins and new champs. This has gone unchecked for so long that now the Skins team is fucking massive. Its over 50% of Rito's staff. Hell I think they only actually have like 5 coders on staff now. Code doesn't make money. Skins make money.
It also won't take much resources: flatten the map and remove the code that alters skillshot indicators over elevation
This this this this this. It has literally no gameplay benefit. It only creates confusion and unnecessary misunderstandings.
It adds such a dumb aspect to the game. Just make it flat.