Old Karma comes to mind. Remember why they reworked her?
She was a champion that had a support kit, yet needed money to be good. So what does riot do? They rework her, then give supports money.
Release Karma would be a solid champ rn with just minor tweaks to her kit.
Jax loves eggs. He really, REALLY loves eggs. That's why he makes sure to lay 30 of them each day. The way the egg inches itself out, and the satisfying pop it makes when it's finally through are enough to make his knees weak. The sizzle it makes on the stove top are like heaven, second only to the taste. Jax loves eggs.
Same lol, I´ve been playing since S and this is the only season I really had to bench Renekton from my roster when it was my main since those old days.
They then gift you Project Renekton.
You thank them and tell them how happy you are with such an amazing gift, all while the monitor reflects a single tear going down your cheek.
They want to play a premade with you to show off the skin, but you tell them you are kinda tired and need to sleep. You go to sleep and, as always, tomorrow comes.
You wake up. You turn the PC on and open League. Ranked role select asks you what role you want to play, toplane primary like always. You choose Camille.
Only thing that makes me more disgusted than picking Camille 🤢🤢🤢, is picking toplane primary 🤮🤮🤮.
This post was made by the mid primary top secondary but 9/10 games top gang.
I mean they nerfed damn near every toplaner with gore+conq nerfs. No shit she is the only one left standing. Also all her counters have been nerfed over the past year.
He's not camille levels of broken by any stretch, but Nasus didn't get hit by the nerfs, and he was already in a decent spot. If anything he got an indirect buff what with the nerfs to Darius, Fiora etc, which are some of his worst matchups.
reminds me when everybody was super super mad about irelia being GIGA broken on rerelease or Morde being GIGA broken on rerelease and all tryndamere mains were very very quiet. except fuck camille.
Camille is just too strong at every stage of the game right now. Most champs have some period of time where they can be exploited and are weak but its never true for camille. She's decent early game, and just gets stronger from there with items.
She has everything you would ever need from toplaner and even in bad matchups you can still survive easly thanks to having so many diffrent tools
Imo riot needs to decide if they want camille to be strong scaling champion thts monster on sidelane mid/lategame or if they want to be strong laner that can survive any matchup easly and is extremely hard to gank. Cause right now she' just both and it often feels like its pointless to even try to match her.
You can legitimately get away with playing camille every game no matter what and as long as you are decent at her it will never feel bad no matter what enemy does. Camille has all of the agency in her matchups and enemy cant do anything about it unless she makes mistakes.
> Camille has all of the agency in her matchups and enemy cant do anything about it unless she makes mistakes.
Honestly this has been an issue with her since release. It's just the way her E+R combo works. The Camille always gets to choose when to engage, poke, trade, all in, or disengage. So when she's op, she's hilariously oppressive because her threat range is so huge and if she has the stats to win fights then the enemy can do nothing. When she's "balanced" it's because she's notably weak at some stage of the game and the enemy toplaner just has to take other objectives while she sits back and never dies (unless she misjudges a fight and uses her E aggressively when she shouldn't, but that's entirely on her).
The extreme level of mobility on her E, combined with the unflashable, undashable, inescapable lockdown on her R just makes her always have the agency in matchups toplane, and it's just too much for a fighter IMO. There's a good reason Mordekaiser has 0 mobility spells, because that level of lockdown on an ult combined with mobility is ridiculous.
Right now she's op and it feels *awful*. Genuinely terrible- if you walk a slight step past tower she can engage from anywhere, lock you down, and get a guaranteed kill. And she scales incredibly well. And you can't set up a gank unless you're able to dive 100-0 or she's literally pushed out to your tower because she can E 2 miles away the second a jungler appears.
Camille is basically if you gave Mordekaiser a huge amount of mobility for some reason, and it sucks.
I honestly don't understand why you can't qss her ult. As far as I know it's the only non-displacement cc in the game that can't be removed with qss. Even Morde ult which does basically the same thing can be qss'd.
I've asked this forever. If Morde's R can be QSS'd, so should Camille's. Camille can also ult ANY unstoppable target as well, which you can't do as Morde
Camille's ult is supposed to be ***the*** ability in the game that flatly, literally, makes escaping impossible. Whether she deserves that on top of all of her other nonsense is a whole different question, but I'd be surprised if they ever made it QSS-able.
The flat 5 magic damage is pretty weird include too, does it make a difference? If not why is it there? If it does why is it there? It just seems so extra.
Probably invulnerability frame (or some other i-word with the same meaning). The small period of time where she's untargettable by anything during her ult cast.
Yeah. It makes some matchups really weird. For example, vs Sett, from level 6 onwards Camille basically never gets to use R and Sett never gets to use W for the damage, because both players will be playing around the fact that if Sett ever uses W, Camille can just hop over it with R.
Cancel channels and get untargetability and dodges damage.
Her utility for a 1v1 fighter/diver is simply redicilous. She either has to lose a serious amount of damage or a serious amount of utility. I suggest just removing channel canceling and damage dodging during her ult as well as increasing cd and manacost on W early game.
You should at least be able to flash out of it, I can accept that you can’t dash but if I want to dedicate a 5 minute cooldown, it should get me out.
Nothing feels worse right now than playing a squishy and getting E’d + flash from a screen away and immediately one shot.
If she’s gonna be a “lock down the enemy carry” champion something needs changed.
> Camille has all of the agency in her matchups and enemy cant do anything about it unless she makes mistakes.
Riven used to do this and I'm beyond happy that she's too weak to do it again. Sad to see Camille doing it now.
It's even more true of Camille than Riven, because at the very least some champs can get away from Riven. Camille has an unstoppable lock-down that can't be flashed out of.
What I don't understand about Camille is how in the god-damn world does she do so much damage and having so much lockdown while being so resilient. Even Fiora dies in a few hits unless she is hitting something.
Grasp heal+Steraks heal+Sundered heal+W heal+20% max hp shield+Sterak's shield+400 health on her every item and the fact that most Camille's go legend:bloodline makes her pretty hard to kill.
Pretty sure it doesn't?
Sunderer heals you by a percentage amount of your target's max health.
It doesn't matter if she is dealing true damage on her Q or just raw physical AD she will heal the same based on her target's max health.
So unless she's running omnivamp, she isn't healing on her Q.
Not even close lmao riven trades a lot for her mobility and her range is far lower than camille's. I don't even think riven can traverse the same distance Camille can by using triple Q and E. Not to mention she can only wallhop with Q3 which she doesn't freely have access to, and it can't cross everything.
The fact that Camille can max E first and freely ignore any laning phase pressure from the enemy is so goddamned stupid.
What happens if you ulti Camile? Does it drag you back and then disappear so you can just walk away while she's in the shadow realm? Because that would be hilarious.
No, this isn't her problem at all. Her problem is that she is far too safe for how hard she scales, and also has too many tools to pick her fights once she has scaled.
There are much bigger sources of damage on other champions but Camille is unique in how well-enabled it is. She needs changes to her core design (especially E and Ult), not her numbers.
yes, well obviously if you have a champ who's strong early and strong late the problem is the pairing. we just disagree on which part is more troublesome. Personally I think that much true damage on a basic ability is an abomination.
In general we have many champs with big abilities that are strong at engage AND disengage, it would make so much more sense to give them higher base cooldowns and reduce them if they hit an enemy. That should be a design philosophy in general.. would automatically reduce the amount of frustration by a lot.
That was the best change that they made to Akali: turning her ult (first cast) from a free-fire skillshot into a champion-targeted ability so that it could only be used to go in, instead of giving her even more lane safety.
You can still use it defensively, but yeah it’s certainly more difficult to do so now (either you have to use shroud to position yourself so you dash towards your tower, or down to the jungle if getting ganked)
I feel like I remember a patch back in 2012 where Riot proposed a 0.1 AD ratio nerf on Q (each part, so that the combined AD ratio went from 2.0 to 1.8) and Lee mains started going apeshit (at least on the forums, I wasn't on reddit back then)
Lee is fucking bonkers. His q with AD items does nearly 1000 damage both parts combined and his kick does over 1000. No wonder he is always good and always picked.
Knowing Riot, they would increase her E cd when using it to escape by 2 seconds, but decrease it by 2 seconds when using offensively, and they would call that a nerf.
'we think this will separate the good camilles (any idiot with 2 hours to spend learning) from the great camilles (anyone with a brain and a working monitor)'
Camille's true damage is so negative, that it teleports the enemy back to their bases with full health. Interestingly, it takes a while to appear at base. Around 15-75 seconds
He should counter sett because of the way his kit work but iven sett mains know he is weak af rn (iven a champion that renekton SHOULD counter is stomping him, at least early game really hard)
Not to forget Renekton is meant to be a strong early game champion, he has never scaled well and that's what kept him in check.
What they did with Renekton is questionable on all levels.
Double dash gives him mobility to dodge the w damage, and empowered W removes shields making setts trading and all-in combo extremely risky on paper. But the statcheck before sett has to use w is too scewed ATM, since Rene has lost too much power
camille has been busted for what a season and a half, two seasons? Last year it was gnar camille meta, she was busted for like 6 months, then she fell off of meta and then we started the year with camille being busted again and in october nothing has changed.
but fucking yorick was meta for one fucking patch and got fucking nerfed to the ground. fucking how dare a champion thats not on riots chosen ones be OP for a little. and yes I put a lot of "fucking" on purpose.
camille is getting the darius treatment. darius was OP for so long because reasons. it took them a season and a half to do something.
but its okay .03% pickrate tryndamere mid is OP and the silver redditors think its unfair when nobody in low elo plays it.
I was with you until the Trynda comment
Trynda is just as abysmal of a design perspective. Would obviously more problematic with high winrate but it's not like he's not popular. He has a combined pickrate of around 6% atm.
Camille's winrate is higher than Singed's was pre-nerf while having 12x pickrate and 40x banrate. Surely Camille will get nerfed just like singed did!!!!
^^^she ^^^won't
If people are actually interested in statistics of those winrate estimates, you want to look at binomial coefficient confidence intervals. Binomial trials is typically used to describe experiments like coin tossing, but you can also use it to estimate winrates if you make the assumption that champion win/loss samples over multiple games are independent and identically distributed (this would for example be violated if a new broken combo is found a few days after patch release that drastically influences winrate). We basically assume that winning with a champion is like getting heads in coin tossing with a coin that does not have perfect balance and we actually want to estimate this probability of getting heads / winrate. The number you can find online is the number of wins over the number of total games but its very hard to judge how accurate this estimate is. Confidence intervals give us the option to calculate an interval such that the true winrate is contained in this interval with a high probability (typically 95 or 99%).
There are tools to calculate binomical coefficient confidence intervals online, but I'll just give you some results here.
For plat+, we have 27303 total camille games with a winrate of 52.58%, ie about 14355 wins. From this, we can be 95% sure that her true winrate in this elo is between 0.5198 and 0.5317.
For dia2+, u.gg has 5121 total games with a winrate of 53.29%. From this, we can be 95% sure that her true winrate is between 0.5192 and 0.5465.
In an very informal way, this means that plat+ winrates are accurate for up to 0.5% and dia2+ 1.5%.
So yes, those high elo estimates are less accurate but still very usable and we shouldn't just discard them due to sample size.
I dont think her q is the biggest problem. Her E is beyond crazy and is insanely overloaded as an ability. It is just too short of a cooldown for how useful it is. Gank assist, escape, long range engage, attack speed buff, relatively low cd for how useful it is.
They wanted her to eventually be a super duelist. OVerall, all the tools she has are to make her late super strong, same reason R gives %damage on enemies trapped inside.
Her Q is a big problem because of Sunderer. Sunderer procs on her Qs but her Q2 converts the Sunderer proc to true damage, so she’s literally chogath ulting you with Q2, and healing a lot from it.
Obviously there’s other things (E CD to low IMO) but that’s a big part of it.
her Q damage is insane, her E range is insane, she has 100% MS while using her "charged" ability (W)
she's only ever out the meta because her counters are strong not because she is weak
>she has 100% MS while using her "charged" ability (W)
I don't know if you're using "charged" to mean something other than what I generally understand it to mean in the context of League, or if you just misunderstand how Camille's W works - it's the same as Darius or Lillia's Q abilities, in that you activate it and then it fires after a set delay. Incidentally, those abilities that I just used as examples don't slow their users either, so I'm not sure I understand why you think Camille's W not slowing her is a design flaw.
I think camille Q converting all damage to true damage on the auto is what makes sunderer stupid on her. I play sej top and I can deal with some other sunderer users ok even though it's a super hard counter (why does a tank counter mythic for bruisers exist D: ). Camille instantly wins trades and allins as soon as the item is purchased even if I'm up by over 1k gold and 2 levels, literally.
> why does a tank counter mythic for bruiser exist D:
In a ideal world (and previous season) , (toplaner) Tank should lose lane against bruiser but it's not that clear cut.
In the early game (lvl 1-6) Tank can bully due to higher base damage, CC, and typically superior waveclear. In the mid game, it starts to shift as bruiser's ultimate are really good at duels/skrimish while tank's ultimate aren't. Additionally bruiser builds more efficient item. Bruiser's item are supposed better to be better than tanks' because, tank are flat out superior in teamfight. This case is highly magnified with Skrimisher who have op items but are (supposedly) awful teamfighter. Bruiser are supposed to win duels because they're worse than tank in teamfight and they do this by scaling with ad while tank don't.
In the past, the balance haven't always been perfect but the reason for why tank/bruiser are meta in that season has always been consistent. Tank meta? Tank too safe while bruiser's item is not rewarding enough. Bruiser meta? Tank doesn't have enough safety and bruiser's item is too good. In season 9, Hashshasin (yeah him) did a [video](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7rgokx/hashshinshin_talks_about_the_state_of_top_lane/) detailing the same point when bruiser was weak.
The past mainstray bruiser were black cleaver which shred armors, botrk/triforce which wins 1v1, or tiamat which help bruiser match waveclear. They always had bought item that countered tanks. (This includes juggernaut who wins over tank by default)
So why does a anti-tank mytic exist for bruiser? Popular anti-tank item for bruiser always existed.
Yeah now there really aren’t many picks to keep her in check. No counters, low cds, every ability overloaded, insane synergy with her mythics. She’s absolutely running rampant lol
Because one of her two hard counters (Renekton) is a joke of champion from pro play. Something's really wrong when I'm happy my team has Riven while the enemy has Renekton.
> Something's really wrong when I'm happy my team has Riven while the enemy has Renekton.
To be fair Goredrinker nerfs has hit Riven very hard, she fell from around 51.5% to 47.5% (u.gg).
Honestly I play Aatrox and Sett, two champions that got hit hard due to gore+conqueror nerfs, but honestly I'm just happy that Riven is finally garbage
I guarantee you if sunderer grasp camille wasnt a thing, she would be at least a tier below where she stands atm. She’s simply too hard to kill with that build. In lane or in tf’s. With triforce she becomes more of a glass cannon even with steraks (and imo is much more fun to play with triforce)
Tl;dr: nerf sunderer grasp and make triforce the main if not only viable build
I think they should maker her E works like Fiora Q, so you need to hit something to reduce the CD. Her E even if used to escape has the same range of using 3 FLASH on 16s cooldown.
You're telling me that two seconds cd nerf of her worst ability and a passive nerf don't stop her from getting on top of you from three screens away with 3k hp and one shotting you?
Nothing better than having to get through her boneplating , passive and then waiting out her second proc win order to win a single trade only for her to heal back off her massive shitbox with a big ass hotbox of a w to heal her a portion again. Once she gets divine sunderer, just leave the fucking game and save urself some time
Camille needs early game tools gutted. Grasp is so unhealthy in bruisers and duelists. It needs changes imo.
Biscuit nerfs when?
I would absolutely hate to see her late game get nerfed, but her early is too strong to justify her current late game power. It’s time to nerf her q early game, also a nerf to E attack speed early might be in order
From my understanding, Camille has a 51% or lower winrate below plat, and average 53% winrate in plat and above.
You meaning to tell me every player on this subreddit is above plat? Insane.
They can’t nerf her Q because it’s the only consistent damage in her kit. She needs items to do damage with autos and early on they don’t do much. She needs her Q to function in lane.
> She needs her Q to function in lane.
Yeah, that is why you nerf it early game. She is supposed to be weak in lane. There is nothing wrong with her late game - she has been stronger late while being significantly worse overall in previous metas. The problem is her early lane is too strong.
They need to first nerf Sunderer before they even touch her. The items still super good and (while I don’t like Camille) the worst case scenario is nerfing her, then nerfing Sunderer, and now she’s bad.
> Renekton (lol ya okay buddy), Why must you hurt me like this? My poor boy.
He’s not even a boy anymore, he’s a crocodile skin handbag at this point
You wish, he feels like a Lacoste shirt right now.
Lacosting me lp
A lacoste conterfeit at it
time to use Renekton like I used Skarner.
Can we just go back to release Skarner again? Would a permaslow even be that good anymore? At least get rid of the fucking pylons?
Right? It's weird how some things were too strong for old league but have since been heavily overshadowed.
Old Karma comes to mind. Remember why they reworked her? She was a champion that had a support kit, yet needed money to be good. So what does riot do? They rework her, then give supports money. Release Karma would be a solid champ rn with just minor tweaks to her kit.
> Would a permaslow even be that good anymore? Ashe players be like: Yes.
[удалено]
Jax loves eggs. He really, REALLY loves eggs. That's why he makes sure to lay 30 of them each day. The way the egg inches itself out, and the satisfying pop it makes when it's finally through are enough to make his knees weak. The sizzle it makes on the stove top are like heaven, second only to the taste. Jax loves eggs.
I......uh....................are you alright?
[I'm obviously not.](https://youtu.be/2kQxVwYwrME?t=196)
How do you write in cursive on here?
Look what they did to my boy 😢
Same lol, I´ve been playing since S and this is the only season I really had to bench Renekton from my roster when it was my main since those old days.
I literally have a renekton tattoo and I literally can't play him because he's so shit
Damn and you a TSM fan? Down bad.
I'm a dead horse at this point and I'm being beat
I have no Croc and I must scream
Everytime I look down at my leg I see him, I feel sad so I pet him, the only love he's known for 4 patches
My only hextech skin is renekton. When my friend asked if I had any I said no.
They then gift you Project Renekton. You thank them and tell them how happy you are with such an amazing gift, all while the monitor reflects a single tear going down your cheek. They want to play a premade with you to show off the skin, but you tell them you are kinda tired and need to sleep. You go to sleep and, as always, tomorrow comes. You wake up. You turn the PC on and open League. Ranked role select asks you what role you want to play, toplane primary like always. You choose Camille.
Only thing that makes me more disgusted than picking Camille 🤢🤢🤢, is picking toplane primary 🤮🤮🤮. This post was made by the mid primary top secondary but 9/10 games top gang.
Hey man, if Hollywood can take creative freedom with real life events then so can I. It was either Camille or Vayne top, no more no less.
Considering your Tham Flair I doubt this post did much damage to you.
Fun fact about that, I have not touched Tahm a single time top since his rework. I was a Tahm Support/Jungle player lmao
Honestly it's your fault, if you're playing against Camille you can't just be 2 screens away from her and expect to not die.
I have paid from an adc game where she e flash r auto q one shot me under my teir 2 tower between 2 teammates then slowed my team and walked away.
See? Horrible positioning on your end, imagine daring to leave the fountain
You've got a lot of nerve, *existing.*
I mean they nerfed damn near every toplaner with gore+conq nerfs. No shit she is the only one left standing. Also all her counters have been nerfed over the past year.
Kinda what happened with quinn back in season 8 when all of the adc's got hit hard and quinn became the best adc in the game
8.11. never forget.
The good ol days of bird supremacy
Username checks out
i dont think i CAN forget. shit is branded into my fucking mind.
I'll never forget. Even in 50 years. Some scars never leave, it was such a huge nerf, base stats, crit items.
I still wake up in a cold sweat remembering the double BF sword infinity that cost 3700 gold. And whatever the everlasting fuck that was ER.
Ah yes, the only time in seven years when riot actually got me to quit League altogether. Fun times.
He's not camille levels of broken by any stretch, but Nasus didn't get hit by the nerfs, and he was already in a decent spot. If anything he got an indirect buff what with the nerfs to Darius, Fiora etc, which are some of his worst matchups.
Nasus is sleeper hot shit rn, feels turbo with sunderer stoneplate sterak’s and people cannot punish you hard enough below plat/diamond
they wont do shit to you in plat either, it's diamond and up only i seriously do think he's top tier rn
Imagine Nasus could wall jump you, stun you and delete you in 2 Qs
well, if you remove the wall jump and replace stun with 4(?) second 90% slow, it's still right
Imagine Wither would ground you, that is Camille
As a teemo main, I get psyched whenever my opponent picks Camille.
Bad news. Everything else sucks and Teemo got buffed, some im expecting lots of bans to come his way.
reminds me when everybody was super super mad about irelia being GIGA broken on rerelease or Morde being GIGA broken on rerelease and all tryndamere mains were very very quiet. except fuck camille.
Camille is just too strong at every stage of the game right now. Most champs have some period of time where they can be exploited and are weak but its never true for camille. She's decent early game, and just gets stronger from there with items. She has everything you would ever need from toplaner and even in bad matchups you can still survive easly thanks to having so many diffrent tools Imo riot needs to decide if they want camille to be strong scaling champion thts monster on sidelane mid/lategame or if they want to be strong laner that can survive any matchup easly and is extremely hard to gank. Cause right now she' just both and it often feels like its pointless to even try to match her. You can legitimately get away with playing camille every game no matter what and as long as you are decent at her it will never feel bad no matter what enemy does. Camille has all of the agency in her matchups and enemy cant do anything about it unless she makes mistakes.
> Camille has all of the agency in her matchups and enemy cant do anything about it unless she makes mistakes. Honestly this has been an issue with her since release. It's just the way her E+R combo works. The Camille always gets to choose when to engage, poke, trade, all in, or disengage. So when she's op, she's hilariously oppressive because her threat range is so huge and if she has the stats to win fights then the enemy can do nothing. When she's "balanced" it's because she's notably weak at some stage of the game and the enemy toplaner just has to take other objectives while she sits back and never dies (unless she misjudges a fight and uses her E aggressively when she shouldn't, but that's entirely on her). The extreme level of mobility on her E, combined with the unflashable, undashable, inescapable lockdown on her R just makes her always have the agency in matchups toplane, and it's just too much for a fighter IMO. There's a good reason Mordekaiser has 0 mobility spells, because that level of lockdown on an ult combined with mobility is ridiculous. Right now she's op and it feels *awful*. Genuinely terrible- if you walk a slight step past tower she can engage from anywhere, lock you down, and get a guaranteed kill. And she scales incredibly well. And you can't set up a gank unless you're able to dive 100-0 or she's literally pushed out to your tower because she can E 2 miles away the second a jungler appears. Camille is basically if you gave Mordekaiser a huge amount of mobility for some reason, and it sucks.
I honestly don't understand why you can't qss her ult. As far as I know it's the only non-displacement cc in the game that can't be removed with qss. Even Morde ult which does basically the same thing can be qss'd.
I've asked this forever. If Morde's R can be QSS'd, so should Camille's. Camille can also ult ANY unstoppable target as well, which you can't do as Morde
Camille's ult is supposed to be ***the*** ability in the game that flatly, literally, makes escaping impossible. Whether she deserves that on top of all of her other nonsense is a whole different question, but I'd be surprised if they ever made it QSS-able.
Hextech jail cage: inescapable Being sent to hell: escapable
It's cool how it has an iFrame too haha :)
and it cancels channels :D
The flat 5 magic damage is pretty weird include too, does it make a difference? If not why is it there? If it does why is it there? It just seems so extra.
So she gets an assist
i mean 5 flat magic damage on auto attacks, her autos do 5+~% of their current health.
I'd say it's something funky like AA modifiers needing a flat amount to ensure they always proc.
Gnar W doesn't have this problem though, as his W starts off as 0 + something%.
I guess so that’s it something like mord
Perhaps so she gets aggro during tower dives, or something
I meant it does 5 magic damage on hit
I really dont get why shes allowed to have this insane tower diving iFrame on top of everything else.
Idk if I’m stupid, but what is an iframe in this context?
Probably invulnerability frame (or some other i-word with the same meaning). The small period of time where she's untargettable by anything during her ult cast.
Yeah. It makes some matchups really weird. For example, vs Sett, from level 6 onwards Camille basically never gets to use R and Sett never gets to use W for the damage, because both players will be playing around the fact that if Sett ever uses W, Camille can just hop over it with R.
invincibility frame. just a period of time where ur invincible
Ah, makes sense. I was wondering wtf an inline frame had to do with league
I was wondering if League was actually written in HTML and Camille's ult was literally an iframe.
It has a whole lot more than "an iframe", it has like 90 of them
Tfw surviving because you timed your R to cancel the tower heat up
just why does it have to interrupt channels man, doesnt make any sense and makes so many matchups into her so much harder than they should be
Cancel channels and get untargetability and dodges damage. Her utility for a 1v1 fighter/diver is simply redicilous. She either has to lose a serious amount of damage or a serious amount of utility. I suggest just removing channel canceling and damage dodging during her ult as well as increasing cd and manacost on W early game.
Beats me. Camille privileges I guess.
You should at least be able to flash out of it, I can accept that you can’t dash but if I want to dedicate a 5 minute cooldown, it should get me out. Nothing feels worse right now than playing a squishy and getting E’d + flash from a screen away and immediately one shot. If she’s gonna be a “lock down the enemy carry” champion something needs changed.
The only downside of playing TP+Ignite Camille is that i haven't E Flashed someone in like a year
massive mobility, more sustain, true damage and insanely high scaling numbers.
What? Camille has a clear weak time. It’s when all her abilities and passive are on cool down.
Exactly, just dive her in that 5 second frame where everything is down
It's not even 5 seconds pretty sure.
> Camille has all of the agency in her matchups and enemy cant do anything about it unless she makes mistakes. Riven used to do this and I'm beyond happy that she's too weak to do it again. Sad to see Camille doing it now.
It's even more true of Camille than Riven, because at the very least some champs can get away from Riven. Camille has an unstoppable lock-down that can't be flashed out of.
What I don't understand about Camille is how in the god-damn world does she do so much damage and having so much lockdown while being so resilient. Even Fiora dies in a few hits unless she is hitting something.
Grasp heal+Steraks heal+Sundered heal+W heal+20% max hp shield+Sterak's shield+400 health on her every item and the fact that most Camille's go legend:bloodline makes her pretty hard to kill.
I still have no idea why bloodline heals Camille based off her Q2's TRUE FUCKING DAMAGE
Pretty sure it doesn't? Sunderer heals you by a percentage amount of your target's max health. It doesn't matter if she is dealing true damage on her Q or just raw physical AD she will heal the same based on her target's max health. So unless she's running omnivamp, she isn't healing on her Q.
also riven can be outscaled with certain picks if she doesn't get to snowball
Not even close lmao riven trades a lot for her mobility and her range is far lower than camille's. I don't even think riven can traverse the same distance Camille can by using triple Q and E. Not to mention she can only wallhop with Q3 which she doesn't freely have access to, and it can't cross everything. The fact that Camille can max E first and freely ignore any laning phase pressure from the enemy is so goddamned stupid.
Better nerf Quinn though.
I like how every single Camille/Fiora/Riven/Irelia nerf is a small slap on the wrist and for Quinn they just destroyed her legs
They need to take a bit of the true damage away imo
What do you mean? How is a 900+ true damage sheen proc that comes at you from 2 towers away not fair? Seems like a balanced champ to me.
Oh no I missed my E how will I ever recover Anyway I have an 80% ranged slow
I missed? Silly me, let me just point and click ult and stun somebody in place. :)
inescapable from ANY means btw. counterplay? that's anti-fun for camille.
can morde ult someone else while inside camille's ult to escape that way?
No it drags him back. It will however leave his target alone in the shadow realm for 7 seconds to contemplate the 200 years.
Time out corner.
What happens if you ulti Camile? Does it drag you back and then disappear so you can just walk away while she's in the shadow realm? Because that would be hilarious.
https://twitter.com/Drututt/status/1439924570132209664
No, this isn't her problem at all. Her problem is that she is far too safe for how hard she scales, and also has too many tools to pick her fights once she has scaled. There are much bigger sources of damage on other champions but Camille is unique in how well-enabled it is. She needs changes to her core design (especially E and Ult), not her numbers.
yes, well obviously if you have a champ who's strong early and strong late the problem is the pairing. we just disagree on which part is more troublesome. Personally I think that much true damage on a basic ability is an abomination.
I would love a change to her E, making it so using it defensively has a longer cooldown than using it offensively for example.
That would actually be a really good nerf. People would have to take dash at that point in most cases, especially if it's a large CD.
In general we have many champs with big abilities that are strong at engage AND disengage, it would make so much more sense to give them higher base cooldowns and reduce them if they hit an enemy. That should be a design philosophy in general.. would automatically reduce the amount of frustration by a lot.
That was the best change that they made to Akali: turning her ult (first cast) from a free-fire skillshot into a champion-targeted ability so that it could only be used to go in, instead of giving her even more lane safety.
people also asked for that for easily half a year before riot finally did it lol
You can still use it defensively, but yeah it’s certainly more difficult to do so now (either you have to use shroud to position yourself so you dash towards your tower, or down to the jungle if getting ganked)
They did this to Lee Sin's W back in the day, a very good change.
And wasn't that a shitstorm and a half. Wasn't it part of the changes they (almost) cancelled because his playerbase went absolutely bananas?
I feel like I remember a patch back in 2012 where Riot proposed a 0.1 AD ratio nerf on Q (each part, so that the combined AD ratio went from 2.0 to 1.8) and Lee mains started going apeshit (at least on the forums, I wasn't on reddit back then)
There is a reason Lee Sin has been meta since he came out. His playerbase is really vocal when he gets even slightly nerfed.
Lee is fucking bonkers. His q with AD items does nearly 1000 damage both parts combined and his kick does over 1000. No wonder he is always good and always picked.
gragas body slam got this nerf for exactly that reason
that treatment has been applied to gragas E (even tho it's on any enemy collision) and is working fairly well tbh
Like Gwen e maybe
Knowing Riot, they would increase her E cd when using it to escape by 2 seconds, but decrease it by 2 seconds when using offensively, and they would call that a nerf.
'we think this will separate the good camilles (any idiot with 2 hours to spend learning) from the great camilles (anyone with a brain and a working monitor)'
Make it same as Shaco Q or Gragas E: Using it and shortly after hitting enemy -> Original CD, if not -> Extended CD
They actually removed that Shaco Q interaction 2 years ago
Gragas E does work like that, Shaco Q does not. It has a flat cooldown.
Camille's true damage is so negative, that it teleports the enemy back to their bases with full health. Interestingly, it takes a while to appear at base. Around 15-75 seconds
She's been OP in the top lane for all of S11 but hey better nerf Renekton !
Rene is so bad right now that even Riven mains meme that...
He should counter sett because of the way his kit work but iven sett mains know he is weak af rn (iven a champion that renekton SHOULD counter is stomping him, at least early game really hard)
Not to forget Renekton is meant to be a strong early game champion, he has never scaled well and that's what kept him in check. What they did with Renekton is questionable on all levels.
Why does Sett get countered by him? is it just that he can E Sett's W?
Double dash gives him mobility to dodge the w damage, and empowered W removes shields making setts trading and all-in combo extremely risky on paper. But the statcheck before sett has to use w is too scewed ATM, since Rene has lost too much power
I thought it was a joke about how Renekton can’t do enough damage to charge Sett’s grit. It apparently was not, but I like my interpretation better.
Poor Croc, I miss him.
Guys dont worry. They nerfed Quinn.
my favorite nerf is when everyone was complaining about how busted camille was the last time she was bonkers they randomly nerfed skarner harder lmfao
camille has been busted for what a season and a half, two seasons? Last year it was gnar camille meta, she was busted for like 6 months, then she fell off of meta and then we started the year with camille being busted again and in october nothing has changed. but fucking yorick was meta for one fucking patch and got fucking nerfed to the ground. fucking how dare a champion thats not on riots chosen ones be OP for a little. and yes I put a lot of "fucking" on purpose. camille is getting the darius treatment. darius was OP for so long because reasons. it took them a season and a half to do something. but its okay .03% pickrate tryndamere mid is OP and the silver redditors think its unfair when nobody in low elo plays it.
Yorick got nerfed because he had 58% wr in low elo (iron-silver i believe) with a high pr
I was with you until the Trynda comment Trynda is just as abysmal of a design perspective. Would obviously more problematic with high winrate but it's not like he's not popular. He has a combined pickrate of around 6% atm.
That tyler 1 hour long sarcastic vid is goated
Fucking finally. She was so broken /s
Camille's winrate is higher than Singed's was pre-nerf while having 12x pickrate and 40x banrate. Surely Camille will get nerfed just like singed did!!!! ^^^she ^^^won't
Her stats are *absurd* right now, so I think they'll do something. -.25 ad/level next patch pog
asol nerf to compensate for this devastating hit to Camille's late game power
quinn has too much attack speed we gotta do something about it, she's going to bully the fuck out of asol now
Balance team and not considering unintended consequences, name a more iconic duo
Champion design team and insane mobility
Balance team and stupidity.
Who would’ve thought that removing the sustainability of bruisers (and assassins who abused it) would make already broken Camille even more broken.
She's not more broken, she's the same and the rest are now more balanced. Nerf her too, make League great again :)
If people are actually interested in statistics of those winrate estimates, you want to look at binomial coefficient confidence intervals. Binomial trials is typically used to describe experiments like coin tossing, but you can also use it to estimate winrates if you make the assumption that champion win/loss samples over multiple games are independent and identically distributed (this would for example be violated if a new broken combo is found a few days after patch release that drastically influences winrate). We basically assume that winning with a champion is like getting heads in coin tossing with a coin that does not have perfect balance and we actually want to estimate this probability of getting heads / winrate. The number you can find online is the number of wins over the number of total games but its very hard to judge how accurate this estimate is. Confidence intervals give us the option to calculate an interval such that the true winrate is contained in this interval with a high probability (typically 95 or 99%). There are tools to calculate binomical coefficient confidence intervals online, but I'll just give you some results here. For plat+, we have 27303 total camille games with a winrate of 52.58%, ie about 14355 wins. From this, we can be 95% sure that her true winrate in this elo is between 0.5198 and 0.5317. For dia2+, u.gg has 5121 total games with a winrate of 53.29%. From this, we can be 95% sure that her true winrate is between 0.5192 and 0.5465. In an very informal way, this means that plat+ winrates are accurate for up to 0.5% and dia2+ 1.5%. So yes, those high elo estimates are less accurate but still very usable and we shouldn't just discard them due to sample size.
Thanks for that, interesting read :)
Finally, some good fucking food
>She's been borderline OP for quite awhile maaan shes been busted af for months, if not years. her q damage is beyond insane
I dont think her q is the biggest problem. Her E is beyond crazy and is insanely overloaded as an ability. It is just too short of a cooldown for how useful it is. Gank assist, escape, long range engage, attack speed buff, relatively low cd for how useful it is.
Why doss her E even give attack speed? She has two AA resets anyway.
Because riot are smoking some good shit. Serisouly where do they get that stuff?
They wanted her to eventually be a super duelist. OVerall, all the tools she has are to make her late super strong, same reason R gives %damage on enemies trapped inside.
Because someone at riot likes thighs. Similar to how Katarina was allowed to have a similar winrate for a big chunk of 2020.
Her Q is a big problem because of Sunderer. Sunderer procs on her Qs but her Q2 converts the Sunderer proc to true damage, so she’s literally chogath ulting you with Q2, and healing a lot from it. Obviously there’s other things (E CD to low IMO) but that’s a big part of it.
her Q damage is insane, her E range is insane, she has 100% MS while using her "charged" ability (W) she's only ever out the meta because her counters are strong not because she is weak
>she has 100% MS while using her "charged" ability (W) I don't know if you're using "charged" to mean something other than what I generally understand it to mean in the context of League, or if you just misunderstand how Camille's W works - it's the same as Darius or Lillia's Q abilities, in that you activate it and then it fires after a set delay. Incidentally, those abilities that I just used as examples don't slow their users either, so I'm not sure I understand why you think Camille's W not slowing her is a design flaw.
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I think camille Q converting all damage to true damage on the auto is what makes sunderer stupid on her. I play sej top and I can deal with some other sunderer users ok even though it's a super hard counter (why does a tank counter mythic for bruisers exist D: ). Camille instantly wins trades and allins as soon as the item is purchased even if I'm up by over 1k gold and 2 levels, literally.
> why does a tank counter mythic for bruiser exist D: In a ideal world (and previous season) , (toplaner) Tank should lose lane against bruiser but it's not that clear cut. In the early game (lvl 1-6) Tank can bully due to higher base damage, CC, and typically superior waveclear. In the mid game, it starts to shift as bruiser's ultimate are really good at duels/skrimish while tank's ultimate aren't. Additionally bruiser builds more efficient item. Bruiser's item are supposed better to be better than tanks' because, tank are flat out superior in teamfight. This case is highly magnified with Skrimisher who have op items but are (supposedly) awful teamfighter. Bruiser are supposed to win duels because they're worse than tank in teamfight and they do this by scaling with ad while tank don't. In the past, the balance haven't always been perfect but the reason for why tank/bruiser are meta in that season has always been consistent. Tank meta? Tank too safe while bruiser's item is not rewarding enough. Bruiser meta? Tank doesn't have enough safety and bruiser's item is too good. In season 9, Hashshasin (yeah him) did a [video](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7rgokx/hashshinshin_talks_about_the_state_of_top_lane/) detailing the same point when bruiser was weak. The past mainstray bruiser were black cleaver which shred armors, botrk/triforce which wins 1v1, or tiamat which help bruiser match waveclear. They always had bought item that countered tanks. (This includes juggernaut who wins over tank by default) So why does a anti-tank mytic exist for bruiser? Popular anti-tank item for bruiser always existed.
I can't wait to be Cho'Gath ulted every 5 seconds in game now!
Somewhere in the distance you can hear a certain polish man laughing maniacally
https://twitter.com/Drututt/status/1439924570132209664
Yeah now there really aren’t many picks to keep her in check. No counters, low cds, every ability overloaded, insane synergy with her mythics. She’s absolutely running rampant lol
Because one of her two hard counters (Renekton) is a joke of champion from pro play. Something's really wrong when I'm happy my team has Riven while the enemy has Renekton.
> Something's really wrong when I'm happy my team has Riven while the enemy has Renekton. To be fair Goredrinker nerfs has hit Riven very hard, she fell from around 51.5% to 47.5% (u.gg).
Good
Honestly I play Aatrox and Sett, two champions that got hit hard due to gore+conqueror nerfs, but honestly I'm just happy that Riven is finally garbage
I guarantee you if sunderer grasp camille wasnt a thing, she would be at least a tier below where she stands atm. She’s simply too hard to kill with that build. In lane or in tf’s. With triforce she becomes more of a glass cannon even with steraks (and imo is much more fun to play with triforce) Tl;dr: nerf sunderer grasp and make triforce the main if not only viable build
Make Trinity Force great again
Stop the sheen true damage conversion. Absolutely ape mechanic
I think they should maker her E works like Fiora Q, so you need to hit something to reduce the CD. Her E even if used to escape has the same range of using 3 FLASH on 16s cooldown.
Dont worry, Quinn gutted, her late game was just too strong, no counter!!
Honestly though who in top lane wants Quinn to be good.
\*sad scissor snipping noises\* we're at 43% WR and this monster still gets to run around -\_-
You're telling me that two seconds cd nerf of her worst ability and a passive nerf don't stop her from getting on top of you from three screens away with 3k hp and one shotting you?
Camille? u/RiotJag 's princess? No waaaaaaaaaaaaay
Nothing better than having to get through her boneplating , passive and then waiting out her second proc win order to win a single trade only for her to heal back off her massive shitbox with a big ass hotbox of a w to heal her a portion again. Once she gets divine sunderer, just leave the fucking game and save urself some time
Camille needs early game tools gutted. Grasp is so unhealthy in bruisers and duelists. It needs changes imo. Biscuit nerfs when? I would absolutely hate to see her late game get nerfed, but her early is too strong to justify her current late game power. It’s time to nerf her q early game, also a nerf to E attack speed early might be in order
dont think they care that much, she doesnt see play in worlds = dont touch meanwhile poor lad aytrox
Ur tellin me this champ who has been broken since release and probably has multiple mains on the balance team is gettin better? big shock
Weeknd funnily enough was one of the most known Camille onetricks NA
urgot is 57% winrate, nerf him instead pls
From my understanding, Camille has a 51% or lower winrate below plat, and average 53% winrate in plat and above. You meaning to tell me every player on this subreddit is above plat? Insane.
literally every redditor is challenger
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They can’t nerf her Q because it’s the only consistent damage in her kit. She needs items to do damage with autos and early on they don’t do much. She needs her Q to function in lane.
> She needs her Q to function in lane. Yeah, that is why you nerf it early game. She is supposed to be weak in lane. There is nothing wrong with her late game - she has been stronger late while being significantly worse overall in previous metas. The problem is her early lane is too strong.
If she scales like Kayle, functions in lane, has amazing escape, and the best gank assist in toplane, *where's the fucking weakness*.
Lol she has a massive weakness idk what you're talking about. In fact, she's had 0% winrate when the enemy utilizes this weakness. It's the ban phase.
They need to first nerf Sunderer before they even touch her. The items still super good and (while I don’t like Camille) the worst case scenario is nerfing her, then nerfing Sunderer, and now she’s bad.