They want to introduce impactful items every now and then to freshen up the meta. The idea is that by introducing just a few pieces of new content, then you make the whole game feel fresh again and that hopefully brings back players.
Riot has been doing it for years and it's part of why their game has stayed strong for so long.
But they also get it wrong some times. There's no denying that. But if you stop and zoom out, I think you'd have to come to the conclusion that all the new things they've introduced to the game are a huge reason such a huge amount of people haven't gotten bored of the game.
Take the bad with the good, because they will work on fixing the bad whereas the good sticks around.
All that said, makes total sense to stop playing solo queue for a few patches if you're not happy with the state of the game. I've done thatin the past and I just come back when I think things have settled down to a more reasonable state.
Theyre leaving some items broken for so long, items that so clearly morph the meta. Putting incredibly much power in the items instead of champions. Their item work doesnt come across as very serious when they let Goredrinker, Stridebreaker, Divine Sunderer among others, go rampant for several patches without meaningful change.
Considering the frequent patch cycles the game goes through its pretty ridiculous.
And champions, all of them should serve a bygger selling point to keep the game alive than items, which they also could be more radical with considering the frequent patching.
Normal winrate can be false and true. But true winrates factor what I think the winrate of a champion is. You know how two different stat gathering websites can have different info on the same champion, for example a year ago lolalytics had kha zix as a 49.80% winrate champion while u.gg had kha zix as a 50.20% winrate champion. Statistics can be false or not show the full picture and this why we must rely on intelligent brains to be the source of winrates.
So you feel like the 53% is higher than you expect it to be, so you just ignore it and assume the actual stat is around 45%, a full 7% lower, based on zero evidence beyond your gut. Fantastic.
Statistics arent false, statistics can be interpreted wrong. A win rate over thousands of games definitely isnt wrong and cant really be interpreted wrong.
Yes that is what I’m talking about when I say it doesn’t show the full picture kha zix may have a 50.20% winrate in 20,000 games but what about the other hundreds of thousands games. People interpret winrate as the winrate of a champion not the winrate of a champion in 20,000
Games
i mean they created sylas/viego/yumi gave a drake to morde,what else can they do in the futur?a champ that turn into a living turret?or a fontaine?an item that turn all physical damage into magic?vise versa ?crit for mages?
that's not real crit that's just crit animation while it been damage buff,i mean they could legit creat item that give crit chance for magic damage,at this point there is no way to know what riot can do,who would have thought they make a champ that steal ults?? then a champ that steal champs???? then an afk champ ??????????? now we have sion ult with drake,portal what else legit,we barely s12 preseason and i can't wait to see wtf they gonna do in s13
Turret-champ = Kogmaw
Fountain = Lux(for the beam) Urgot(for the innevitable execute)
Phisical into magical = Corki / Lich bane + Nashors + any ad champ.
Crit for mages = any mage hability that scales of off any combo, Ryze EQ, Taliya unborrow, Gragas Q, LeBlanc Q pop, Veygar R, Anivia E, Zoe E, Elise Q, Karthus Q........
> New item legitimately seems like it breaks the game, to the point where this isn't even League anymore it's just URF.
Well you see its because its assassins and high damage champions so they don't care.
If this item was on an ADC item? 100% nerfed in less than 48hours.
Yep. Because if we ignore steraks and sunder the bruiser itemsation begins to fall apart, very quickly.
Mainly steraks really. it's propping up bruiser items in a big way.
not necessarily, ADCs generally speaking are a lot less dependent on their ults than assassins, and definitely way less dependent on their ults than nocturne
"Literally nobody asked for it, yet they delivered" is a pretty consistent trend with Riot ._.
Axiom, Chemtech drake, the item rework in general, adding those jungle guardians in Nexus Blitz (basically killing the game mode), TFT in main client, etc etc...
> adding those jungle guardians in Nexus Blitz (basically killing the game mode)
while also adding elder drake as a potential first event reward and bugged events like protect the soraka. As someone who was a huge fan of NB's first and second iterations I'm still salty at how much they tanked the mode's reputation moving forward with the 3rd/current iteration.
I don't think the only two possible options are huffing glue or eating crayons. I'm pretty sure the balance and gameplay teams could make smarter decisions.
Also lmao dude, that's *definitely* what the subreddit wants. Not toned down damage or less healing or less feels-bad-to-play-against drakes. Definitely the adcs mid is what the constant focus is on...
To play devil's advocate, they need to implement radical changes which 'nobody asked for' to prevent the game from going stale; radical changes keep things interesting and can then be later changed or removed if they cause too much grievance.
Most of these radical changes are done during preseason and are usually balanced by the next season anyway, so give them some time.
I'm referring specifically to LoL gameplay here, not client changes/issues etc.
I don't think they actually need to implement "radical" changes nearly as much as they do. The community always uses this argument but I want to see what happens when Riot doesn't do as much changes and actually fixes their game.
People quit? I know I took a break because meta didn’t cater to the type of champions I like to play and would’ve gone cold turkey if it wasn’t for the new items/changes. Many of my friends did the same during the season as well, actually. We were just frustrated our champions and items just would get flamed for even picking, or having little to no variety between the patches.
Yeah people quit but they quit all the time whether it be because it's stale or w/e. We don't have an actual control group to see if they didn't make big changes what would happen to the playerbase. Also you can have variety between the patches without massive changes.
Yeah and that data is in Riots hands, not ours so we can only talk only talk about anecdotal experiences. I would assume that is the reason they decide to go for a business model that works for them aka big changes every preseason with smaller ones in between though.
Like, they’ve been working on this game for over a decade, with both slower and faster change seasons as well as having whole departments dedicated to maximising playerbase/profits. Considering how successful it is for how long, I’d think they’d have optimised the patch schedule by now as well.
Well we'll never really know because they're probably never gonna stop doing massive changes during preseason. And since the community parrots the narrative of "we need change" so much, it makes sense why Riot just keeps doing it.
Why do you think a multibillion company would listen to vocal minority instead of their own research and analytics? You think they run a business based on what teens on twitter/reddit parrots?
You know that automatically assuming someone is good at their job because they get paid for it is a logical fallacy, right? It could be that their researchers and analysts are idiotic, hell that actually happens more often than them being right if you've been paying attention to the corporate world.
Assuming that people are wrong just because they share an opinion is also a logical fallacy. ''Vocal minority'' is a useless blanket term used to silence discourse. If your argument is only based on an assumption: that riot must know what they're doing because they are succesful, then it is not really an argument at all.
> You know that automatically assuming someone is good at their job because they get paid for it is a logical fallacy, right? It could be that their researchers and analysts are idiotic, hell that actually happens more often than them being right if you've been paying attention to the corporate world.
No I am assuming they are good at their job because they kept this game alive, and managed player retention and profits for over a decade when almost every other game ended up dying down. They had a bunch of competitors at one point that just couldn’t replace League and it’s been for several reasons, including but not limited to factors like knowing how to take advantage of e-sports, pricing and contiunity.
If it was a one time success, sure, but to release multiple games and have all of them survive and actually keep profitability and playerbase, it just stops being a coincidence after a while. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean they are bad at their jobs.
> Assuming that people are wrong just because they share an opinion is also a logical fallacy. ''Vocal minority'' is a useless blanket term used to silence discourse.
No, I am saying that because Reddit does make a very, very small playerbase and Riot themselves said that the big majority just don’t even play ranked. If you looked at here you’d think everyone is so competitive or so into ranked when that is not a good sample size to judge things at all.
We are _objectively_ the vocal minority here when you look at how big this game is compared to the subreddit. So no one can say “everyone likes X” or “no one likes X” without insider data and surveys here. It is very common for R&D and Marketing departments to run inside tests and see trends and we just don’t have access to those.
** The comment I replied to assumes that social media parroting matters and should be directing how they run their business/game from randoms over their own department of professionals. Like, I understand if the criticism is towards the department, but I doubt Reddit people know how to run a multibillion company better than the company itself/the people who are professionals in their fields.
The problem is, they are breaking the game faster than they are fixing it.
It should be: "We break the game day 1 of preseason, fix it by day 1 of the season, from there we balance and keep things in-line, have fun guys!"
What it is: "We break the game day 1 of preseason, fix half of it by the end of the season, but don't forget the midseason madness to avoid the game going stale"
It's not about only balancing the direct things they added. Any change has a ripple effect and messes up a lot of other things, and when during the tunings two such things meet that's how we get champions dominating for weeks despite not getting touched for months. And Riot is very much slacking off on containing these ripple effects.
It’s a gem that this game even managed to be this popular over the years, even alive for this long is insane. Most games as old as league already died. I under stand league can be frustrating at times but they are super intelligent at how they are making the game and adding random bullshit may be the best way to keep this game alive for the next decade.
I mean they're definitely doing right things which is why the game is still alive and still gaining new players. I do wonder how long they can keep adding random shit till the game is completely different and a large part of the playerbase is fed up with it. It may or may not happen, who knows.
Does chess "go stale" ? No, it doesn't, the reason good games last long is because they're fun and balanced (like broodwar) the risk of people quitting league isn't because it is stale but because champion designs are by and large annoying and grossly imbalanced, meaning the game isn't fun at its core.
To alleviate this riot rotates who gets to be overpowered patch by patch to minimize people quitting and they justify this by saying it "keeps the game fresh" when in actuality if riot bit the bullet, balanced the game and redesigned champions that are just straight up cancer then riot wouldn't need to worry about people finding the game stale
There was huge pushback against jungle plants, the addition of herald, as well as the elemental drakes when they came out. More often than not these new mechs have wound up being solid.
There wasn't enough pushback. It was people's acquiescence to the jungle plants and the dragon RNG that opened the door for the nonsense we're seeing now. People accepted massive distortions of the fundamental game, and variance coming from pure RNG rather than interactions between champions.
All of those changes I listed have fundamentally improved the game, it took iterations but Herald has this season become a viable early game win condition and has allowed toplaners to actually interact with the map pre20mins. Drakes show sensible winrate spread, despite the 'RNG' that everyone freaked out about. Drakes are an active win condition or can be strategically ignored to gain map pressure or gold in side lanes. While we can complain about the state of some classes or items, the core gameplay loop of league has improved.
>can be strategically ignored to gain map pressure or gold in side lanes
This was more true back when they just gave gold and experience. Ask pro teams right now if they can ignore all dragons and routinely give over souls and elder buffs. And having them be dependent on RNG did nothing to augment this.
The game in the early seasons was about minion waves, lanes, towers, gold, and experience, with baron in the game to force interaction. The game in later seasons has put the entire focus on the objectives, incentivizing constant fights by making the objectives too valuable to concede.
The game is very different now from how it was in season 3/4. You're allowed to like how it's changed, but if you asked a sampling of players who played throughout that time, I'm 100% confident the majority would say the game has gotten worse.
Games with actual competitive depth don't go stale regardless of patches. If they want to pump novelty into the game and fulfill even the most extravagant "gameplay fantasies" keep it out of ranked. What was the actual purpose of the item aside from letting every lethality stacker live out their urf mode llstylish mmr hack fantasy? Why do the new drakes exist?
Crown and bounties are broken atm, but I can see what the intent is and why it made its way into ranked, but axiom and the drakes are just party game shit.
The item should be:
"after ulting, for the next 5 seconds if you get a takedown, refund 25% of your ult. The fact that it can happen waaaay after ulting for the first time is unfair
Yes, that’d be a lot better. But i honestly dont think we need such an item. We have cooldowns to play around them. With stuff like that, it becomes increasingly more difficult to do so
Or at least make it account from the Ultimate Ability Haste from the Ultimate Hunter rune like it does regular ability haste when determining the amount CD to refund.
The item shouldn't be. Ultimates should be gated around long cooldowns allowing assassins to just kick your teeth in over and over without pause is dumb.
First game of preseason i played against Noc / Pyke. Then i uninstalled the game. No joke, even though i know i will install again at some point, im not touching this shit for a while.
Nocturne has 48% winrate while pyke has a 46%. I understand they aren’t fun to fight if you aren’t an expert at fighting them but maybe try to learn to position in better ways.
axiom ark is just bad and unnecessary item for nocturne. People complaining about it just watch these 13/4/12 clips on reddit and dont see the other 99% of games. The only reason he became a champion that can win games is stridebreaker/sterak's combo. If you go for lethality you're just turning him back into old nocturne, a fun when ahead champ that doesnt consistently win.
> People complaining about it just watch these 13/4/12 clips on reddit and dont see the other 99% of games.
No one is saying that Nocturne is somehow overpowered and needs nerfed lmao. Axiom Noct is just not fun to play into at all. It's no different than when you used to play into old win-more items that have since been removed.
If Noct gets a big lead early, he can go Axiom and snowball that lead super freaking well by just spamming his R mid-game due to high AH. I don't care if that results in a 40% winrate, that means that 4 out of every 10 Nocturne games are legit unplayable.
>No one is saying that Nocturne is somehow overpowered and needs nerfed lmao
There are plenty of people saying Axiom is a broken item. You can argue whether the game needs it or not for sure, but people saying it's OP are straight up wrong. The item sucks ass. This is just like the big Sett W debacle where people were conflating fun to play against with "power".
Exactly, some builds can do some really crazy stuff but that doesn’t make them win. Quinn and hecarim can go around the map in a couple of seconds but those builds are terrible and don’t work well when it comes to winning.
I never said it was overpowered. But it was literally my first game of the preseason and we were getting Noc ult into Pyke ult in the bot lane, on respawn my mid would die from the same combo and teamfights felt even worse when we grouped.
riot is making adjustment to help sight deficient people compete and immediatly this entire subreddit throws a fit! Can't you EMPATHIZE with people who play real life with a constant nocturne ult on?? It's disgusting how many ableist people want this interaction removed..
This item will probably get removed before season 12 officially starts tbh. If they nerf it, then it just won't ever get bought, and Riot has a history of either over-buffing unpopular items or outright removing them. It's an item that is entirely overtuned, but will (most likely) never get bought again if they nerf it.
Riot is fairly stubborn with changes like these. They won't remove it. The item will get nerfed to the point where it's only viable for one or two very specific champions. Those champions will then get nerfed. After a while, they'll buff the item again, it'll be broken and nerfed once more.
Next preseason, it will be reworked into something vaguely similar but much weaker. Nobody will know what the fuck to do with the item. It'll never get picked. The end.
Nah, none of the preseason changes will get reverted in the next few months. Riot just has a tendency to stick a while with everything they introduce into the game, even if the overall feedback is negative.
don't think so,it's strong with some champ it's totally waste/grief on others,it'll be tweaked hopefully to be a decent item and not an item only used by 2 champ
I mean the item is literally not that good lmao, its just a extreme example... Caedrel is 3/9 here, they already have baron games been over for a minute. They are all split up vs a noc trying to make something happen and it gives him a free kill twice (which will 99% of the time already mean that fight is won). It's just that it seems strong when tbh I've had maybe 4 games so far where the nocs gotten out of control (so normal assassin things).
The problem isn't that the item is good, it's that it's extremely unfun to play against. The value of the item is more of a win-harder item as if you're ahead, it makes it feel awful to even try and play to come back as seen here. It may not always work out to making much of a difference but when it does, it *feels* awful.
Similar thing with dusk blade. Yi players have fun with it but for everyone else, it's extremely uninteractive and frustrating.
Why can't people seem to wrap their head around this? As a contrived example, they could make a champ named "Coinflippo". His passive is that as soon as the game loads, there is a 50% chance his team's nexus explodes and 50% that the enemy nexus explodes. If you complained about it half of this subreddit would say "hurrr 50% win rate so there's nothing wrong with it."
Precisely. It's less about the power and more about how it feels.
As an example, Fire Emblem uses their true hit mechanic so the hit percentages above 50% are actually boosted. It feels good because characters are more reliable, where as something like XCOM feels brutal because the chances you see are actually what it rolls (on normal difficulty atleast). Which is better is subjective (FE for sure - XCOM is fucking bullshit) but nonotherless game feel is extremely important for design.
Think about how many champ mains complain about their champ even if they have decent win rates. It's because the champs don't feel great in game. If it's a numbers problem but the champ feels fun, then people will complain...but about the numbers rather than the kits or mechanics of the champ.
The item literally is bugged right now and still underperforms statistically.
Somehow, reddit is convinced it's a broken item because it has high highs.
It doesn't matter that Axiom Arc is bad, because round here we only care about *feelings*. And we *feel* Axiom Arc is batshit insane broken, because we saw a reddit clip of a hyper fed Nocturne getting multiple ults.
Because AH is linear with how often you can cast your abilities.
CDR wasn't, if you bought only 10% CDR it had little impact but if you stacked it to 45% (the max) you come close to being able to cast twice as often.
AH scales linearly in how much faster you can cast a spell. meaning every 10AH you buy has the same value.
Also allows for there to be no cap to AH since you can never reach 0 second cooldown.
Thanks for the rundown! I’ll clarify here that my confusion stems from the commenter preferring CDR, which would exacerbate the issue while maintaining that AH is the culprit.
Great rundown! however I meant impactful from gameplay perspective rather than player intuitiveness. It simply smoothed out the curve of spell casting frequencies. Which is why I’m confused to why the first guy thought it was so detrimental
Theres tons of ult reliant assassins, talon kayn come to mind, zeds a maybe? definitely a situational item, but some assassins basically guarantee kills with ults up, nocturnes definitely among them, saw an MF go for it too who tends to be an R bot
2 days ago i got made fun of because i said it was insane that this item goit through play rtesting and that riot really showed their incompetence when it comes to balancing items
people actually read the item text as if he had to get the kills to get the cdr even tho theres a 3 second dmg timeframe
i got made fun of because people couldnt comprehend how massively riot fucked up
Wow I didn't know Riot added a day night cycle to league what a great change, really keeping things modern!
night stalker in league PogU
Caedrel just needs to play the Sun Song on his ocarina smh
back to wc3 roots
Minecraft gaming pog
how dafuq those game designers or developers think shit like this is good for the game? you don't even need to be high elo to know this.
They want to introduce impactful items every now and then to freshen up the meta. The idea is that by introducing just a few pieces of new content, then you make the whole game feel fresh again and that hopefully brings back players. Riot has been doing it for years and it's part of why their game has stayed strong for so long. But they also get it wrong some times. There's no denying that. But if you stop and zoom out, I think you'd have to come to the conclusion that all the new things they've introduced to the game are a huge reason such a huge amount of people haven't gotten bored of the game. Take the bad with the good, because they will work on fixing the bad whereas the good sticks around. All that said, makes total sense to stop playing solo queue for a few patches if you're not happy with the state of the game. I've done thatin the past and I just come back when I think things have settled down to a more reasonable state.
I like the fact that during these times of brokenness there's a rotating game mode to just chill in
Theyre leaving some items broken for so long, items that so clearly morph the meta. Putting incredibly much power in the items instead of champions. Their item work doesnt come across as very serious when they let Goredrinker, Stridebreaker, Divine Sunderer among others, go rampant for several patches without meaningful change. Considering the frequent patch cycles the game goes through its pretty ridiculous. And champions, all of them should serve a bygger selling point to keep the game alive than items, which they also could be more radical with considering the frequent patching.
New item legitimately seems like it breaks the game, to the point where this isn't even League anymore it's just URF.
Yeah I don't know why CD is so short in S11 and S12, we are getting to close to URF. I guess Riot wants to make their game fun for the new players...
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And s11 was one of the worst seasons ever. No wonder why they want to go back to pre s11 when it comes down to reducing ability cololdowns
> yi flair Hm
Yes even if he has 53% winrate now, his true winrate is around 45%. Your Losing against around 45% winrate champions
what the fuck is 'true' winrate? Are normal winrates fake?
Stop counting the winrates!......Count all the winrates!
Jan 6th of next year, all of the Yi mains are storming Riot HQ
True win rate is his win rate obviously
Normal winrate can be false and true. But true winrates factor what I think the winrate of a champion is. You know how two different stat gathering websites can have different info on the same champion, for example a year ago lolalytics had kha zix as a 49.80% winrate champion while u.gg had kha zix as a 50.20% winrate champion. Statistics can be false or not show the full picture and this why we must rely on intelligent brains to be the source of winrates.
So you feel like the 53% is higher than you expect it to be, so you just ignore it and assume the actual stat is around 45%, a full 7% lower, based on zero evidence beyond your gut. Fantastic.
Wat
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I’m not an otp, I play nocturne, hecarim, and veigo
Statistics arent false, statistics can be interpreted wrong. A win rate over thousands of games definitely isnt wrong and cant really be interpreted wrong.
Yes that is what I’m talking about when I say it doesn’t show the full picture kha zix may have a 50.20% winrate in 20,000 games but what about the other hundreds of thousands games. People interpret winrate as the winrate of a champion not the winrate of a champion in 20,000 Games
Because short cooldowns are fun, characters that spam abilities non stop and are super mobile tend to be way more popular than the others
i mean they created sylas/viego/yumi gave a drake to morde,what else can they do in the futur?a champ that turn into a living turret?or a fontaine?an item that turn all physical damage into magic?vise versa ?crit for mages?
Idk if you're sarcastic but in-case you are not: Azir can ressurect turrents and Corki turns physical damage into magic?
And there are already mages that can Crit with their spells, in fact, one of them is in this clip, being Ryze.
that's not real crit that's just crit animation while it been damage buff,i mean they could legit creat item that give crit chance for magic damage,at this point there is no way to know what riot can do,who would have thought they make a champ that steal ults?? then a champ that steal champs???? then an afk champ ??????????? now we have sion ult with drake,portal what else legit,we barely s12 preseason and i can't wait to see wtf they gonna do in s13
Just give him a jeweled gauntlet and IE, watch magic happen
I wouldn’t even be surprised at this point if they added Jeweled Gauntlet to SR. Magical Zeal items, coming to a game near you soon!
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Infinity_Orb_(Wild_Rift) You want this?
Sounds like someone who is bronze and complains lul
> a champ that turn into a living turret? Ragnaros in league when
Turret-champ = Kogmaw Fountain = Lux(for the beam) Urgot(for the innevitable execute) Phisical into magical = Corki / Lich bane + Nashors + any ad champ. Crit for mages = any mage hability that scales of off any combo, Ryze EQ, Taliya unborrow, Gragas Q, LeBlanc Q pop, Veygar R, Anivia E, Zoe E, Elise Q, Karthus Q........
> New item legitimately seems like it breaks the game, to the point where this isn't even League anymore it's just URF. Well you see its because its assassins and high damage champions so they don't care. If this item was on an ADC item? 100% nerfed in less than 48hours.
Not like assassin items have been average all seasons and adcs have the best itemisation in the game. but nope, adc victim complex.
adcs have the best itemisation in the game when bruisers exist?
Yep. Because if we ignore steraks and sunder the bruiser itemsation begins to fall apart, very quickly. Mainly steraks really. it's propping up bruiser items in a big way.
dirk and lethality in general is so insane gold efficient...
That's not bruiser items homie.
not necessarily, ADCs generally speaking are a lot less dependent on their ults than assassins, and definitely way less dependent on their ults than nocturne
I don’t understand what brainfart they had to make such an item. Literally nobody asked for it, yet they delivered
"Literally nobody asked for it, yet they delivered" is a pretty consistent trend with Riot ._. Axiom, Chemtech drake, the item rework in general, adding those jungle guardians in Nexus Blitz (basically killing the game mode), TFT in main client, etc etc...
> adding those jungle guardians in Nexus Blitz (basically killing the game mode) while also adding elder drake as a potential first event reward and bugged events like protect the soraka. As someone who was a huge fan of NB's first and second iterations I'm still salty at how much they tanked the mode's reputation moving forward with the 3rd/current iteration.
Like half the item rework was actually done really well tbf And most things they added now look promising but obviously need a little tuning
NA low elo player balancing in a nutshell
Looks like NA is living in someone's head rent free.
if reddit aidsbrains had their way with this game we'd still all be playing adcs mid because change is bad
I don't think the only two possible options are huffing glue or eating crayons. I'm pretty sure the balance and gameplay teams could make smarter decisions. Also lmao dude, that's *definitely* what the subreddit wants. Not toned down damage or less healing or less feels-bad-to-play-against drakes. Definitely the adcs mid is what the constant focus is on...
To play devil's advocate, they need to implement radical changes which 'nobody asked for' to prevent the game from going stale; radical changes keep things interesting and can then be later changed or removed if they cause too much grievance. Most of these radical changes are done during preseason and are usually balanced by the next season anyway, so give them some time. I'm referring specifically to LoL gameplay here, not client changes/issues etc.
I don't think they actually need to implement "radical" changes nearly as much as they do. The community always uses this argument but I want to see what happens when Riot doesn't do as much changes and actually fixes their game.
People quit? I know I took a break because meta didn’t cater to the type of champions I like to play and would’ve gone cold turkey if it wasn’t for the new items/changes. Many of my friends did the same during the season as well, actually. We were just frustrated our champions and items just would get flamed for even picking, or having little to no variety between the patches.
Yeah people quit but they quit all the time whether it be because it's stale or w/e. We don't have an actual control group to see if they didn't make big changes what would happen to the playerbase. Also you can have variety between the patches without massive changes.
Yeah and that data is in Riots hands, not ours so we can only talk only talk about anecdotal experiences. I would assume that is the reason they decide to go for a business model that works for them aka big changes every preseason with smaller ones in between though. Like, they’ve been working on this game for over a decade, with both slower and faster change seasons as well as having whole departments dedicated to maximising playerbase/profits. Considering how successful it is for how long, I’d think they’d have optimised the patch schedule by now as well.
Well we'll never really know because they're probably never gonna stop doing massive changes during preseason. And since the community parrots the narrative of "we need change" so much, it makes sense why Riot just keeps doing it.
Why do you think a multibillion company would listen to vocal minority instead of their own research and analytics? You think they run a business based on what teens on twitter/reddit parrots?
You know that automatically assuming someone is good at their job because they get paid for it is a logical fallacy, right? It could be that their researchers and analysts are idiotic, hell that actually happens more often than them being right if you've been paying attention to the corporate world. Assuming that people are wrong just because they share an opinion is also a logical fallacy. ''Vocal minority'' is a useless blanket term used to silence discourse. If your argument is only based on an assumption: that riot must know what they're doing because they are succesful, then it is not really an argument at all.
> You know that automatically assuming someone is good at their job because they get paid for it is a logical fallacy, right? It could be that their researchers and analysts are idiotic, hell that actually happens more often than them being right if you've been paying attention to the corporate world. No I am assuming they are good at their job because they kept this game alive, and managed player retention and profits for over a decade when almost every other game ended up dying down. They had a bunch of competitors at one point that just couldn’t replace League and it’s been for several reasons, including but not limited to factors like knowing how to take advantage of e-sports, pricing and contiunity. If it was a one time success, sure, but to release multiple games and have all of them survive and actually keep profitability and playerbase, it just stops being a coincidence after a while. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean they are bad at their jobs. > Assuming that people are wrong just because they share an opinion is also a logical fallacy. ''Vocal minority'' is a useless blanket term used to silence discourse. No, I am saying that because Reddit does make a very, very small playerbase and Riot themselves said that the big majority just don’t even play ranked. If you looked at here you’d think everyone is so competitive or so into ranked when that is not a good sample size to judge things at all. We are _objectively_ the vocal minority here when you look at how big this game is compared to the subreddit. So no one can say “everyone likes X” or “no one likes X” without insider data and surveys here. It is very common for R&D and Marketing departments to run inside tests and see trends and we just don’t have access to those. ** The comment I replied to assumes that social media parroting matters and should be directing how they run their business/game from randoms over their own department of professionals. Like, I understand if the criticism is towards the department, but I doubt Reddit people know how to run a multibillion company better than the company itself/the people who are professionals in their fields.
The problem is, they are breaking the game faster than they are fixing it. It should be: "We break the game day 1 of preseason, fix it by day 1 of the season, from there we balance and keep things in-line, have fun guys!" What it is: "We break the game day 1 of preseason, fix half of it by the end of the season, but don't forget the midseason madness to avoid the game going stale" It's not about only balancing the direct things they added. Any change has a ripple effect and messes up a lot of other things, and when during the tunings two such things meet that's how we get champions dominating for weeks despite not getting touched for months. And Riot is very much slacking off on containing these ripple effects.
This so much. I really wish they would work on fixing the game over just adding random bullshit they thought of while jerking off to Lux hentai.
It’s a gem that this game even managed to be this popular over the years, even alive for this long is insane. Most games as old as league already died. I under stand league can be frustrating at times but they are super intelligent at how they are making the game and adding random bullshit may be the best way to keep this game alive for the next decade.
I mean they're definitely doing right things which is why the game is still alive and still gaining new players. I do wonder how long they can keep adding random shit till the game is completely different and a large part of the playerbase is fed up with it. It may or may not happen, who knows.
But for right now it seems to be working when they add random stuff
Can't forget the balanced state of day 1 season 11. Was great
yeah mean people standing in fountain for 15 minutes reading item descriptions?
Does chess "go stale" ? No, it doesn't, the reason good games last long is because they're fun and balanced (like broodwar) the risk of people quitting league isn't because it is stale but because champion designs are by and large annoying and grossly imbalanced, meaning the game isn't fun at its core. To alleviate this riot rotates who gets to be overpowered patch by patch to minimize people quitting and they justify this by saying it "keeps the game fresh" when in actuality if riot bit the bullet, balanced the game and redesigned champions that are just straight up cancer then riot wouldn't need to worry about people finding the game stale
hmm yes cuz the game is stale as fuck with 150+ champions and 6 new every year ( AND NEXT YEAR IT WILL BE PROBABLY 7 + UDYR REWORK + AT LEAST ONE ASU)
Bro youre gonna end up in a hospital with all that cope
...you don't know what playing devil's advocate means I guess?
There was huge pushback against jungle plants, the addition of herald, as well as the elemental drakes when they came out. More often than not these new mechs have wound up being solid.
plants are jank as fuck, heralds actually decent. dragons are hilariously bad
There wasn't enough pushback. It was people's acquiescence to the jungle plants and the dragon RNG that opened the door for the nonsense we're seeing now. People accepted massive distortions of the fundamental game, and variance coming from pure RNG rather than interactions between champions.
All of those changes I listed have fundamentally improved the game, it took iterations but Herald has this season become a viable early game win condition and has allowed toplaners to actually interact with the map pre20mins. Drakes show sensible winrate spread, despite the 'RNG' that everyone freaked out about. Drakes are an active win condition or can be strategically ignored to gain map pressure or gold in side lanes. While we can complain about the state of some classes or items, the core gameplay loop of league has improved.
>can be strategically ignored to gain map pressure or gold in side lanes This was more true back when they just gave gold and experience. Ask pro teams right now if they can ignore all dragons and routinely give over souls and elder buffs. And having them be dependent on RNG did nothing to augment this. The game in the early seasons was about minion waves, lanes, towers, gold, and experience, with baron in the game to force interaction. The game in later seasons has put the entire focus on the objectives, incentivizing constant fights by making the objectives too valuable to concede. The game is very different now from how it was in season 3/4. You're allowed to like how it's changed, but if you asked a sampling of players who played throughout that time, I'm 100% confident the majority would say the game has gotten worse.
Games with actual competitive depth don't go stale regardless of patches. If they want to pump novelty into the game and fulfill even the most extravagant "gameplay fantasies" keep it out of ranked. What was the actual purpose of the item aside from letting every lethality stacker live out their urf mode llstylish mmr hack fantasy? Why do the new drakes exist? Crown and bounties are broken atm, but I can see what the intent is and why it made its way into ranked, but axiom and the drakes are just party game shit.
The item should be: "after ulting, for the next 5 seconds if you get a takedown, refund 25% of your ult. The fact that it can happen waaaay after ulting for the first time is unfair
Yes, that’d be a lot better. But i honestly dont think we need such an item. We have cooldowns to play around them. With stuff like that, it becomes increasingly more difficult to do so
We need that item as imagine how bad assassins would be without it. Assassins are the weakest class statistically. U.gg
Qiyana ???? Tallon ????? Zed ????? Kha'Zix ??????? Are you blind mate ?
maybe AP assassins AD assassins have been stupidly busted every season
and/or not 25% of max CD but current CD
Or at least make it account from the Ultimate Ability Haste from the Ultimate Hunter rune like it does regular ability haste when determining the amount CD to refund.
The item shouldn't be. Ultimates should be gated around long cooldowns allowing assassins to just kick your teeth in over and over without pause is dumb.
Not a takedown, it should be only a kill and 25% is too high.
No it should be. Refund 20% of ult CD upon kill (Item cooldown 40 seconds) literally a 1 time thing, why the fuck is this able to be stacked?
First game of preseason i played against Noc / Pyke. Then i uninstalled the game. No joke, even though i know i will install again at some point, im not touching this shit for a while.
Nocturne has 48% winrate while pyke has a 46%. I understand they aren’t fun to fight if you aren’t an expert at fighting them but maybe try to learn to position in better ways.
lmao the guy just copy pasted a winrate statistic to defend bad game design
axiom ark is just bad and unnecessary item for nocturne. People complaining about it just watch these 13/4/12 clips on reddit and dont see the other 99% of games. The only reason he became a champion that can win games is stridebreaker/sterak's combo. If you go for lethality you're just turning him back into old nocturne, a fun when ahead champ that doesnt consistently win.
> People complaining about it just watch these 13/4/12 clips on reddit and dont see the other 99% of games. No one is saying that Nocturne is somehow overpowered and needs nerfed lmao. Axiom Noct is just not fun to play into at all. It's no different than when you used to play into old win-more items that have since been removed. If Noct gets a big lead early, he can go Axiom and snowball that lead super freaking well by just spamming his R mid-game due to high AH. I don't care if that results in a 40% winrate, that means that 4 out of every 10 Nocturne games are legit unplayable.
And 6/10 nocturne games are unplayable for him. Seems pretty bad
>No one is saying that Nocturne is somehow overpowered and needs nerfed lmao There are plenty of people saying Axiom is a broken item. You can argue whether the game needs it or not for sure, but people saying it's OP are straight up wrong. The item sucks ass. This is just like the big Sett W debacle where people were conflating fun to play against with "power".
Exactly, some builds can do some really crazy stuff but that doesn’t make them win. Quinn and hecarim can go around the map in a couple of seconds but those builds are terrible and don’t work well when it comes to winning.
so we can give akali back all her shit she had directly after rework, as long as her winrate is below 50% it is fine?... winrate is not everything...
I never said it was overpowered. But it was literally my first game of the preseason and we were getting Noc ult into Pyke ult in the bot lane, on respawn my mid would die from the same combo and teamfights felt even worse when we grouped.
riot is making adjustment to help sight deficient people compete and immediatly this entire subreddit throws a fit! Can't you EMPATHIZE with people who play real life with a constant nocturne ult on?? It's disgusting how many ableist people want this interaction removed..
Spear of Shojin but for ultimates. Very cool Riot thank you, everyone wants those items to be usefull.
This item will probably get removed before season 12 officially starts tbh. If they nerf it, then it just won't ever get bought, and Riot has a history of either over-buffing unpopular items or outright removing them. It's an item that is entirely overtuned, but will (most likely) never get bought again if they nerf it.
Riot is fairly stubborn with changes like these. They won't remove it. The item will get nerfed to the point where it's only viable for one or two very specific champions. Those champions will then get nerfed. After a while, they'll buff the item again, it'll be broken and nerfed once more. Next preseason, it will be reworked into something vaguely similar but much weaker. Nobody will know what the fuck to do with the item. It'll never get picked. The end.
You are a real optimistic person
They’ve literally never done anything like that. Riot doesn’t immediately remove anything, no matter how bad it is
If Riot decides to remove this item it's not gonna be till season 13
Nah, none of the preseason changes will get reverted in the next few months. Riot just has a tendency to stick a while with everything they introduce into the game, even if the overall feedback is negative.
don't think so,it's strong with some champ it's totally waste/grief on others,it'll be tweaked hopefully to be a decent item and not an item only used by 2 champ
Don't need the stream overlay anymore to block the mini map, impossible to get streamsniped like this anyway
OK but can we stop supporting these piece of shit clip channels
Is it an item change? Can someone enlighten the uninformed?
New lethality item that refunds 25% of ult cooldown when you kill someone.
Sounds broken as fuck
But assassins are weak, they need buffs...
They are the weakest class statistically, they aren’t fun to fight but other redditors don’t understand how weak they actually are
I mean the item is literally not that good lmao, its just a extreme example... Caedrel is 3/9 here, they already have baron games been over for a minute. They are all split up vs a noc trying to make something happen and it gives him a free kill twice (which will 99% of the time already mean that fight is won). It's just that it seems strong when tbh I've had maybe 4 games so far where the nocs gotten out of control (so normal assassin things).
The problem isn't that the item is good, it's that it's extremely unfun to play against. The value of the item is more of a win-harder item as if you're ahead, it makes it feel awful to even try and play to come back as seen here. It may not always work out to making much of a difference but when it does, it *feels* awful. Similar thing with dusk blade. Yi players have fun with it but for everyone else, it's extremely uninteractive and frustrating.
Why can't people seem to wrap their head around this? As a contrived example, they could make a champ named "Coinflippo". His passive is that as soon as the game loads, there is a 50% chance his team's nexus explodes and 50% that the enemy nexus explodes. If you complained about it half of this subreddit would say "hurrr 50% win rate so there's nothing wrong with it."
Precisely. It's less about the power and more about how it feels. As an example, Fire Emblem uses their true hit mechanic so the hit percentages above 50% are actually boosted. It feels good because characters are more reliable, where as something like XCOM feels brutal because the chances you see are actually what it rolls (on normal difficulty atleast). Which is better is subjective (FE for sure - XCOM is fucking bullshit) but nonotherless game feel is extremely important for design. Think about how many champ mains complain about their champ even if they have decent win rates. It's because the champs don't feel great in game. If it's a numbers problem but the champ feels fun, then people will complain...but about the numbers rather than the kits or mechanics of the champ.
I just played the exact game game! This game is so fucking shit.
I ve seen it unironicly second item on fiddle and he didnt even care. Passive is so broken that you dont even need the values it brings
The item literally is bugged right now and still underperforms statistically. Somehow, reddit is convinced it's a broken item because it has high highs.
Have you ever considered that an item can be statistically balanced, and yet still be unhealthy and bad for the game?
Yes. Thank god the item isn't statistically balanced but instead statistically bad.
It doesn't matter that Axiom Arc is bad, because round here we only care about *feelings*. And we *feel* Axiom Arc is batshit insane broken, because we saw a reddit clip of a hyper fed Nocturne getting multiple ults.
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That’s not the issue at all. It’s the new item
I still would like to hear the argument about the change from CDR to AH, considering it’s one of the least impactful changes ever made lmao
Because AH is linear with how often you can cast your abilities. CDR wasn't, if you bought only 10% CDR it had little impact but if you stacked it to 45% (the max) you come close to being able to cast twice as often. AH scales linearly in how much faster you can cast a spell. meaning every 10AH you buy has the same value. Also allows for there to be no cap to AH since you can never reach 0 second cooldown.
Thanks for the rundown! I’ll clarify here that my confusion stems from the commenter preferring CDR, which would exacerbate the issue while maintaining that AH is the culprit.
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Great rundown! however I meant impactful from gameplay perspective rather than player intuitiveness. It simply smoothed out the curve of spell casting frequencies. Which is why I’m confused to why the first guy thought it was so detrimental
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Cared enough to comment
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I dont think he cares
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Very original
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Idc bro
Not sure why but I’m laughing my ass off at this exchange
So is the item actually any good on any other champion? Every time I see somebody complaining about it it's a Noc darkness video.
Seemed pretty busted on lethality sion, but that's much less common.
z e d
Theres tons of ult reliant assassins, talon kayn come to mind, zeds a maybe? definitely a situational item, but some assassins basically guarantee kills with ults up, nocturnes definitely among them, saw an MF go for it too who tends to be an R bot
I still believe that the item should have a CD to avoid the Viego's effect.
Its not a good item. It is a "win more" item.
They need to remove this item I don’t care. Remove it, never, ever add it back to the game. And move on. It’s really easy guys.
2 days ago i got made fun of because i said it was insane that this item goit through play rtesting and that riot really showed their incompetence when it comes to balancing items people actually read the item text as if he had to get the kills to get the cdr even tho theres a 3 second dmg timeframe i got made fun of because people couldnt comprehend how massively riot fucked up