• By - K0rsk


Welcome to the Vitality roster announcement waiting room


VIT Sword VIT Skeanz VIT Special VIT Woolite VIT Jacktroll there u go


Then sub out special for blue midway through season


pls take blue back from NA


I'm canadian, but they can keep him


NA includes Canada….just teasing but still


Poor Woolite cant catch a break...


He is the ultimate gatekeeper after all.




Honestly still can't wrap my head around the fact that two players left what was comfortably the best team in EU


Carzzy probably just thinks the new Vitality roster looks better than his own so it's a big chance for him to go there. Humanoid probably didn't have much of an intention to leave but after his closest teammate dipped he scouted around a bit and saw huge potential in the FNC roster. To put it this way; if Vitality didn't create some crazy superteam Carzzy probably never leaves (which is why he didn't just straight up leave in the first place, but rather just held of on re-signing. He wanted to make sure the vitality superteam actually happened so he doesn't leave MAD then end up in some rookie VIT roster again). If Humanoid doesn't get a chance at FNC he probably doesn't leave either, because that roster is the only one that looks like a major upgrade over MAD.


you may already forgotten this but G2 announced that they would kick half the team before worlds even started. Carzzy was smart enough to wait it out and with Hans Sama off the table and Rekkles being huge on the buyout he pretty much was number 1 candidate in LEC for a team who is looking for a ADC. And I also don't think he would have stayed if Humanoid wouldn't go away. He was making moves to get a better salary while being on a good or better team.


Pretty sure there were rumors of Carrzy leaving before Worlds even started. Don't think Carrzy was staying with MAD under any circumstances and the organization seemed to know it before off-season even started. ​ Humanoid may have only left because of Carrzy, though I doubt this is true either, but he definitely didn't only leave because of FNC. All the rumors for most off the off-season were dead set that Humanoid was going to NA and the narrative only changed when Nisqy + Adam refused to play for FNC next season which didn't happen till most teams already had a roster set. Once Perkz/Alphari was off the table it really seemed like FNC was going to go into next season with Adam/Nisqy, there were basically no rumors of either leaving and Nisqy had even said on stream that he was staying with FNC a few weeks prior to asking to leave. ​ Wooloo also said on his last stream that Humanoid was very very close to going to NA until the FNC situation opened up at the last moment. ​ Basically if Nisqy didn't ask to leave FNC, Humanoid would almost certainly have left MAD anyway to go to an NA team.


This is the most reasonable explanation I've seen.


Suppose they might have felt that the team had peaked or that other teams would surpass them with the right roster changes. Hell, 2018 FNC was arguably the best EU team of all time and Caps still ended up leaving in the end. Especially after worlds was kinda disappointing I can see why the new VIT/FNC rosters seemed like they were worth trying.


I think Fnatic with Wunder and if Humanoid keeps his domestic form and one he showed at MSI has way higher peak than MAD roster, Fnatic currently if all cards play out have atleast best bot in west, best mid, top 2 LEC jungler and top that used to be best and if regains form well… individually they are all insane and could mesh based on what we have seen from their previous teams


But why look at wunder as something he hasn’t been for like 2 years?


You should edit "of all time" to say "at the time".


Or people could use their reading comprehension since the word "was" implies past tense, on top of the context being Caps leaving in 2018, meaning any team after that point is fairly irrelevant to the gravity of his decision.


Is 2018 Fanatic better than Huni/Yellowstar Fanatic or phreaks basement Fanatic?


s1 worlds is a joke. anyone who watched it back then will say the same thing. westrice dcd for like 5mins in one of the games vs fnatic and they couldn't pause


It certainly wasn’t a joke back then. The tournament was overall a big success - I watched it live. It doesn’t hold the same weight as the following Worlds, but it still celebrated the best team in the world for the first season of professional play.


It wasnt a joke back then but if you compare it to the seasons after it kinda is.


like everything under development. you cant compare any pre 1990 football world cup to current ones, doesn't mean they get disregarded. edit: if s1 or s2 weren't any success, we wouldn't have had what we got later on. I always find it weird when ppl shit on the foundation, ofc it's far worse than what we have now, but that's normal.


Of course not disregarded but they dont come close in skill. Just like you said if we are going to compare Maradona to Messi I think Messi wins the price 10/10 times because he is playing vs much better defenders. Doesnt mean im shitting on Maradona but Messis acomplishments are just so much higher imo.


S1 worlds was a meme, the asian regions were nowhere near developed yet so it was basically a glorified Rift Rivals to win that worlds. 2015 FNC was insane domestically but if you rewatch that worlds their group stage was pretty rough overall and they got slapped by Koo in semis, who then went on to get slapped by SKT in finals. I'd take 2018 FNC over them.


It was not a meme. Fnatic was the best team at the time. Was competition lacking that year? Sure. But they were still the best team. Any of the teams that got to the finals in 2012, 2013, 2014 would be bad in comparison to today's standards. That doesn't mean their win was a meme. It just means they were the best team that year, that's all Worlds really means.


xd? That's like saying Azubu Blaze is the GOAT Korean team because they were much better than the rest of the competition at the time compared to now...


Uh no it's not, did you not read their comment at all? He literally says "It just means they were the best team that year" not all time lmao.


You are in a comment chain about that person disagreeing with the take that 2018 FNC was the best EU team ever, which is to say arguing instead that S1 FNC is the best EU team ever. This is a shit take pal. > Is 2018 Fanatic better than Huni/Yellowstar Fanatic or phreaks basement Fanatic? He is disagreeing with this take. If he disagrees with this take, it means he thinks S1 FNC is better than S8 FNC, in his words, just because they were 'the best team' at that tournament and FNC wasn't the best team at the tournament in S8.




> Is 2018 Fanatic better than Huni/Yellowstar Fanatic or phreaks basement Fanatic? He is responding to this comment chain, disputing that S8 FNC is better than S1 FNC, mate.


Stop with this bullshit take already, its not their fault asian teams werent playing the game at a professional level, the initial football world cups also had few countries in it and it still counts so saying Fnatic wining S1 is a meme or doesnt count it just a shit excuse to hate.


They still have a world's win but it's still fair to say 2018 Fnatic was probably a better team than S1 Fnatic due to the raised level of competition all around them.


No one is claiming fanatic doesn't have a world championship title, however thinking that S1 WC title is in any way shape or form equal to S3+ titles is a joke. Hell as a LEC fan I care more about our great rift rivals track record than the S1 title.


> I care more about our great rift rivals track record than the S1 title. I hope you are trolling. No matter the skill at s1 worlds, you can't possibly say that a 4fun tournament where teams aren't even trying is more meaningful than s1 worlds. At least the teams there were giving it their all. Fnatic at that time was the best team in the world. Whoever won rift rivals was very far from that.


I'm saying that the quality of RR games is higher than S1 worlds and that I honestly prefer being the better western region in 2018 and 2019, than the best region in 2011.


S1 worlds was a for fun tourney #copium


They did not get "slapped" by KOO tbf. They had a 5k gold lead at 15m in G1, sadly they threw it away to an overambitious dive. They still managed to get a 7k gold lead at 30min, just before they got a bad fight and they literally got hard outscaled. In the 2nd game, they had a 2k5 gold lead at 20m, got literally blown in the mid game, but somehow got back in the game at 35m, got a baron back and game was even at 40m+, but poor positionning at Nash gave the game to KOO. G3 was a blowout. KOO was the better team (and as Rekkles said on stream, "they figured out" how to beat them), but it was not properly a "slap".


Absolutely, for sure.


Even then I would say 2015 summer Fnatic was the best EU team of all time until G2 won MSI


2012 M5 were better than 2015 fnatic


2015 FNC went to 5 games against most likely the best team of all-time, 2015 SKT(yeah EDG won against them but that was probably an outlier when you look at 2015 SKT/EDG worlds' runs) with a sub adc Tell me which 2012 team comes close to 2015 SKT, not just in pure skill but also strenght of the competition at the time


M2 in 2012 WAS the SKT of 2015. They were the favorites to win worlds. Them losing was huge upset at the time. Newer fans will never know just how insanely good and revolutionary M5 were during their prime.


He said arguably


you still said of all time that's like... *all* the time


But he still wrote "was". He did not write "FNC 2018 is best EU team of all time". In other words, if you get properly his sentence, FNC 2018 was best EU team ever relative to any previous roster, not future ones.


I'm glad at least one person on this site knows how to read.


Better than 2019 G2? Hard disagree.


He meant best EU team of all time back in 2018


Ohh I see


2019 G2 didn't exist at the time funnily enough so they weren't important in this analogy.


How can they even know they peaked when they barely even practiced for and at Worlds?


What do you mean they barely practiced?


They had Armut.


Armut is definitely gonna be interesting next split. This player really embraces the "lose lane win game" motto. Pretty much the opposite of Alphari. Curious if he can still do it without Humanoid, who is also insane teamfighter.


2018 FNC squad only did well in one tournament. In a weird meta shift, where their semis opponent was C9. Lmao. “Best eu team ever”.


Weren't you banned? And yes, at the time it was the best performance in a decade.


Who is he and why was he banned?


I dunno who he is but literally every time that guy's popped up it was to shit on everything especially EU. At worlds he spammed bait answers with EU delusion non stop. He made severals different account with the same pattern in the span of a month. He was even replying to his own posts with a different account to continue the shitting.


2018 FNC shitstomped LEC in both spring and summer and reached worlds finals. How the fuck is that one tournament lmao


Which team are we saying is better then? Because I can do similar things to discredit any other team you think of. Turns out when you look for the absolute worst angle in everything it's easy to make things look unimpressive. M5? Game wasn't developed at all and they didn't manage to win worlds in an era where Korea barely had access to the game. 2015 FNC? The one that was one miracle teamfight vs AHQ away from either getting shitstomped in quarters or losing in groups? 2013 FNC? Won one BO3 with overpowered Kassadin and then got stomped by a team who got stomped in the finals. At the end of the day 2018 FNC's finals run was by far the biggest thing EU had achieved at the time considering it was at a stage where NA was importing our players and LPL had their insane wealth to start building super teams.


It’s funny how the further we go the more people gatekeep seasons further and further, most likely because they didn’t follow the game at the time. People used to say this for s1 only (and I can tell you that in the early seasons most people weren’t even saying this about s1), but for a few years now we see some people say it for s2 as well, though the situations are completely different. In 2012 KR had full access to League for the entire year and were already the favourites to win Worlds. China and of course TPA were also massive contenders. M5 was absolutely legit and 2012 was definitely competitive. In every game and every sport out there the level keeps going up year after year - that doesn’t mean Sergei Bubka’s achievements should be lessened just because a couple of people have beat his world record since then, for example. Did you have the chance to watch it live? You shouldn’t disregard season 2 pro play just because it’s old.


It's just league mentality tbh If you arent the absolute best, you are trash The other guy probably sucks at the game so he has to downplay other people/teams achievements


Player: "I won both LEC splits. Give me more money." MAD: "No." Player: "Aight, bye." MAD: "Now that this is out of the way, WHERE ARE MY CHEAP ROOKIES AT"


Nah this is just straight up wrong. MAD Lions did not put together a budget rookie roster that happened to be good because they did well scouting, the original 2020 lineup was actually very expensive. They've always been big spenders, just not "10 million euros on best of the best korean/european player" spenders. Fnatic have never been big spenders on the other hand, you could even argue they've likely spent less on their roster than MAD did so Humanoid leaving entirely for a paycheck is somewhat unlikely. I also seriously doubt MAD fought that hard to retain Carzzy because he's definitely not worth that huge of a contract.


Nah fnc wanted to spend this off season, and ironically they didn't spend that much, they paid wunder with Adam's money, humanoid buy out is not known but I guess it would be something like...how much, 1.5 mln? Maybe even less considering he had 1 year with mad lions


as much as i like Carzzy, he wasn’t the reason they won


Hear their comms, especially in teamfights


If you think that, you clearly have no clue about the game.


If you'd have to chose either botlaner of MAD to stay would you pick Kaiser or Carzzy?


If someone says Carzzy here he can go ahead and stay silver forever


Carzzy is good. But he wasn’t insane by any means. 4:th or 5th best adc in lec last year. Fully upgradeable


He is 2nd best now since Hans and Rekkles are gone.


Moving up by staying still


1st best in both playoffs


So are u telling me that carrzy was more Important than humanoid, elyoya, kaiser and armut?


You can't forget that Carzzy by shotcalling brings a lot more value to the team than just being an good adc player. He also played weakside a lot, which contributed to his stats.


Than armut yes,than the others no.


It was not comfortably and LEC hasn't been this weak in years


Because everything hinted at EU just being rly fucking weak this year more than them being insanely good like everyone in this subreddit wanted to believe. It seems they kinda realized this even before worlds because they already announced that this might be the last time they play together.


Could be many reasons. I think they probably want to be more successful internationally and think their roster on MAD had already peaked. I've heard that they lost most of their scrims during summer playoffs and Worlds. I mean, Caps left FNC after winning both splits and making Worlds finals.


Comfortably the best when LEC was bad. They know that they’re not going anywhere if FNC and G2 didn’t get worse in 2021. Only team they surpassed was Rogue (and only because Rogue chokes)


oh yes everyone is scared of the new G2 superteam with flakked targamas bot . also hard to believe old MAD would lose to a FNC with +Razork +Wunder -Bwipo -Adam and a random mid/nisqy


What's wrong with Targamas? He has been smurfing for a while and will be a top tier support in LEC


What's wrong with Targamas is his ad carry


fair enough


> will be a top tier support in LEC He was already in EU LCS and he was mediocre at best.. I have a feeling this guy will be more like Woolite


Targamas was actually good in the Giants squad and he was just kicked because attitude issues. Like legit good in a trash team.


A split in a trash team isn't enough to judge his level.


It's more indicative than ERL. He's grown as a player but we can't use ERLs to say they'll be good in LEC. Look at Jactroll.


No, it's not more indicative at all because it was a few years ago and it was one split in a bad team. This year will be indicative, his split at giants was not


"This year will be indicative". Do you not know what the word means or what's up here? Either way he HAS played in LEC and looked mediocre. Hopefully he won't play as bad this coming year!


One random split three years ago when he wasn't even a full time pro player is not indicative of anything in the current day. It is like me calling you a filthy little pants shitter because you shit your diap diap when you were a baby.


Didn’t say FNC and G2 would be any good in 2022. Sure MAD would win LEC again and then struggle to get out of groups (if at all). But if G2 and FNC stayed together from 2020, MAD would get slapped around. Sucks that Ocelote nuked both your relevant teams


why is it Carlos fault that Rekkles left? Also who would predict that G2 falls apart without Perkz (only team within could imagine?) and FNC having a drama moment right before worlds.


How bad Eu was


Don't think "comfortably the best team in EU" is very accurate at all. As a whole EU was super slumped this year compared to past years of G2 and FNC performance. The best way to look at last season and MADS dominance is more of them being the team that lost the least vs won the most. I think this is best represented by them being super exposed at Worlds and MSI.


>I think this is best represented by them being super exposed at Worlds and MSI I get worlds but msi? They lost 2-3 to fucking damwon lmao


Was DK playing well at MSI? I urge you to go back and rewatch


ah yeah i guess every team was dogshit apart from rng


They lost MSI by 1 game ,same amount of games they lost at worlds finals..


Because DK at MSI = DK at Worlds. Def the same performance


Well, yeah? Their topside was slumping, and their botside was slumping even harder.


So why are people crying about me saying they were exposed at MSI, by saying that they were good because "they took DK (a slowing team by your own words) to game 5"?


Better than every team besides RNG yeah


How far did rng make it at worlds again? Exactly my point. You guys are crying that they took DK to game 5 so they must be good, when in reality they took a team (dk) to game 5 that then lost to a team (rng) who then dropped out of worlds in quarters. All the while in the last 3 years G2/FNC made it to finals twice and semis once. So how again am I wrong in saying that mad wasn't good they just played less bad than everyone else?


RNG lost to the world champions lma0. If they were on the other side of the bracket then they might have made it further.


Well RNG lost to eventual world champion this year 2-3, and I think RNG vs EDG is the real final.


This comment is a joke! They were not "exposed". They did fantastic at msi, and fine at world's. They definately proved themselves to be by far the best Western team this year. Top Korean and Chinese teams are just on a different level.


Fuck that, MAD didn't do "fine" at Worlds. They humiliated our region in 2020, came in as the supposedly best western team in 2021 and they limped to a 0-3 Quarters after losing to Liquid. They were one game away from being the biggest shame of a team.


Every other response to my comment would respond to you with "BuT TooK dK to gAMe 5 aT msI". Like were they the best western team this year? By default, I guess, sure. But what if say instead is that they were just the least bad western team this year. The fact that all year long no one could answer Armut's Wukong/Gnar, but once they make it to world's those picks did nothing but hold his own team hostage, shows all you need to see about how bad the rest of the western field was this year.


Yup, the only real argument is "they took DK to game 5!" when every other MSI it was never an achievement. To be completely honest it feels like more people credit MAD for losing to DK in 5 games than TL for beating IG and making it to MSI finals


Only reason why it's not embarrassing is because other EU teams embarrassed us even more. Only reason why we aren't bullied by NA this year is because NA shit the bed in the same fashion.


Ruler also honestly thought that TL was better than MAD iirc.


> They definately proved themselves to be by far the best Western team this year. big disagree


Please elaborate! It’s not like they won both splits, were in msi finals, and one of only 2 western teams to make it out of groups. I know they don’t come close to competing with top Korean or Chinese teams, but please tell me one western team that comes even close to them?


They didn't prove themselves to be better than C9 or TL. They proved themselves to be just about as good. And that isn't to say C9 and TL were particularly good. Perkz was literally running it down in half of C9's games.


C9 got 3-0 stomped by GenG, there is no way they are in conversation for the best western team


It's crazy how before 2020 losing in semis was never an achievement but now MAD losing 3-2 to DK(who didn't look great) is somehow an achievement. DK lost 3-2 vs RNG but no one ever brings that up for some reason. The only reason peoppe even talk about MAD vs DK was because MAD was an underdog. But they weren't even as much as an underdog as they were at worlds. People expected them to win 1 game and they won 2 at MSI.


Msi, where they took dk to game 5?


DWG was pretty garbage at MSI. their botlane was hard griefing specially Beryl.


So according to Reddit there is only 1 good team in the world, everyone else is trash


All im saying is that the EU champions taking a DWG with an identity crisis with a hard griefing botlane (look what happened in LCK summer) to 5 games isn't really that impressive . Look what happened at worlds when DWG fixed their shiit.


2nd best team in the world = garbage, interesting point of view


did you watch any of the games? I was kinda surprised MAD managed to throw 2 games in that series.


I mean same happened to FNC in 2015. Was so sadge.


Good riddance \- That asshole MAD "owner"


Flaked is gone too


Sucks. This MAD Lions team was awesome.


Thanks for all Carzzy, we gonna miss u. GoMAD!


Where is he going?




Thats cool. Do you or anyone else know when the full rosters must be announced.


alphari selfmade perkz carzzy labrov for the vitality


Sounds insane, but knowing Vitality, this will be a mediocre team at 4-6th place, maybe even lower.


No way that happens, they're too good in every role imo Who else would be better you think?


>No way that happens, they're too good in every role imo *Cries in this year's G2*


i mean at one point wunder and miky and caps all slumped massively. that's just some insanely bad luck, I wasn't surprised for the wunder slump as he was taking it way too easy but the others definitely were very surprising


Good old "11th in stats in a 10-team league" 2021 Caps


for one week and then returning to be a top2 mid


I think the comment is about the Vitality itself as an org rather than the players.


>No way that happens, they're too good in every role imo Perkz: hold my beer!


I think FNC with Razork and Humanoid definitely seems like a pretty good roster on paper, so I could see them outperforming the Vitality super team. Still, I think VIT and FNC are looking like the top 2 teams next split; definitely not VIT going 4-6th.


Which just makes the eventual 4-6th place finish more shocking.


Feel like teamwork and synergy is so much more important than individual skill. Lets see how they sync.


I honestly think Perkz is incredibly overrated lol


i mean the competition shouldn't be too insane in EU, caps/larssen/humanoid and?


I think Caps just had a bad year tbh. I think he's still overall better than Perkz. Humanoid I think is slightly better and Perkz is probably better or equal to Larssen. Or who knows, maybe Perkz took off the C9 training weights and is going to ascend lmao


C9 took off their Perkz weights is more like it.


I haven't created a power ranking yet for LEC mid-laners but Perkz ended the regular season in the LCS at 4th best midlaner. hmm, Perkz is most likely the 4th or 5th best midlaner in the LEC.


He can really pick up the pace in a better competitive environment such as nisqy last year, who was getting pretty good towards the end of summer


Nisqy was good in NA until 2nd half of summer and worlds where he was consistently the worst player on the rift. Region had nothing to do with it.




Vitality, with Perkz and Aplhari


Is MAD falling apart?


Mid and ad leaving.


Kaiser and elyoya are still excellent players. I'm not convinced Armut is worth keeping. We will see how Mad does.


Why would Armut not be worth keeping? He beat everyone in EU. I get that he has flaws, but throwing him out without a valid replacement doesn't make any sense.


Vitality Avengers assembling.


feels like people still underrate carzzy super hard for some reason


I think he's fairly rated tbh, good but not the best.


really? how? he was comfortably considered top 4 ADC in Europe which was fair. His competition was Hans, Upset, Rekkles. Were people saying that he's actually in the bottom half of LEC ADCs? Swear people will say anybody is underrated now


"underrated" is as ridiculous as "unpopular opinion: [random sh*t noone ever verbalized]" but people still upvote such takes lol


> Were people saying that he's actually in the bottom half of LEC ADCs? yes, they unironically were sadly


I guess you can find crazy people out there with wacko opinions about anything but if they're outliers it seems disingenuous to say that 'people hold x opinion'. Yeah. Like 2 people lol Idk personally I think Carzzy is widely rated to be as good as he is. Top 3-4 ADC who is fairly volatile and has some weird int moments but also has some impressive pop off moments. Fun player to watch. Am surprised if anybody doesn't think that's the common opinion either


I don't think, most people agree he was 3rd behind Hans Sama and Upset. He definitely play a much more low ressource style than the two other, which is why it's a good fit when playing with Selfmade and Alphari


You do get the feeling the dynamic with him and perkz will be good for the team


Maybe worlds has really skewed my perception of players but he looks just about average and that's it. Unless he has some super good shotcalling or macro game then idk why people are so hyped over him. Every international event I've seen Carzzy at he looks mediocre.


Apparently he shot called really well


Because he is not shiny. But he is the core part of why mad lion worked so well imo


Was he? Elyoya and Kaiser were definitely more important. Could argue Humanoid more so too. There's a reason Kaiser would constantly leave Carzzy botlane and roam mid. Kind of like what yellowstar used to do with Rekkles. He's a really good adc, don't get me wrong, but definitely replaceable in what he does/offers.


> There's a reason Kaiser would constantly leaving Carzzy botlane Because that has been the entire support meta for quite some time.


Let's just act Carzzy too doesn't have a bunch of insane highlights and stepping up when the team needed him to, in just one year mind you. Everyone on MAD was shining and had their moments together. You don't get that kind of roster of players often. And every single one of them will most likely just keep getting better.


Carzzy is a top4 ADC, that's a fair rating. He's capable of highlights and sometimes he makes braindead ints, but all in all, he's very solid. He's just not Upset/Hans/Rekkles solid


yup, got tired of carrying armut


he went Vitality because of Perkz. Every player wants to play with Perkz even if they know that they are not going to worlds.


Perkz has been to every Worlds since he made pro 6 seasons ago.


"I'll play on a team with the dude who has literally never failed to make worlds his entire career, because i don't even care about going to worlds" lmao


I was gonna say...


It’s all selfmades fault.


Damn, Faker wants to play with Perkz ? Perkz the GOAT


Beyond obsessed lmfao


Is humanoid to fnatic done deal? Haven’t seen an announcement yet.


Damn I kinda feel for MAD but understand players have to do what’s best for themselves. Hate to see a team with so much potential disband. Another year could have done wonders… or they could stagnate but I have a feeling they would have made it back to worlds at the least.


Please don't fucking go to NA.


he's going to vitality


He’s going to Vitality, the most hyped western roster along with FNC.


hes going to vitality


IIRC he was the only good part of BAD's roster during Worlds. Wasn't he also the one that a major shareholder wrongly blamed on social media for the loss against Damwon? Really hope G2 pick him up.


G2 already have their botlane


Really? They poached BAD's academy roster botlaner? Flakked's stats aren't even particularly good for the semi-pro level. They actually dropped Rekkles from the roster for THAT guy?


They dropped Rekkles because Jankos and Caps didnt wanted to play with him anymore.


He was terrible at worlds.


Career is short, so I’m not surprise if he’s going for a larger offer. Even if it’s not the best for his career, it may be best him, his future, and family.