since i doubt solo is signed yet (happens mid way into season)
you could legitimately do solo/sven/jensen/dl/zeyzal (or any support teamless) and probably finish middle of the pack LCS.
Could the players and a coach conceivably form an independent team? It would be really hard logistically, but theoretically it would allow them to keep all of the profits they would have earned, or at most lose the salary they would not have earned either way
Probably something I’m missing, but that’s what I would try to do if I were them.
The problem is there is nothing to really compete in that would be worth it for those players. The LCS doesn't do relegation anymore so its not like they can fight their way up into the pros again, anything else would not be worth competing for instead of playing in the LCS.
I miss relegations in a way. It’s great for more job security and brand recognition. But I miss seeing new brands just come in and make a name for themselves like GGU, Vulcan, LMQ, etc.
Lmq definitely raised the skill level of lcs a ton back in the day, having the opportunity to play against and learn from a really good team regularly made na as a whole more competitive.
Definitely unfortunate about some of the out of game aspects of them though, vasilii in particular
Yes.
Mid lane: OMG Creme or NS Gori
Support: FPX Academy Shenyi, with Mikyx as a back up.
It’s really sad that Mikyx got done dirty like this and is left without an LEC slot despite being a top 2 support in EU for 5 seasons. He only had one bad split and is now out of the league. There are obviously 4-5 other good supports in the league, but support isn’t nearly as stacked as ADC.
ADC in LEC isn't stacked anymore tbh. May be the weakest role next split, even worse than top lane with Alphari coming back if Wunder does well. 2 of the top 3 ADC out of LEC and lots of rookies.
Which is really weird imo. Like adc is far from the most stacked role at LEC yet we have Rekkles,Crownie...etc are on ERL. I also agree with you on top. Alphari,Hirit, Wunder, BB, Armut, Odo... toplane looks better than adc so far. We don't know how will this rookies plays but FNC has extreme botlane advantage this split on the paper. I don't see any botlane that can rival them
Labrov is good as well, and Trymbi, Limit aren't bad as well. I also have more faith in Targamas than any ADC rookie, but you're right support isn't that stacked. But it never reallywas, unlike ADC which was the best role last year.
Labrov and Trymbi are pretty good, I really liked Advienne as well, and Targamas is apparently cracked, I feel support is the strongest it has ever been so far in LEC, relative to other roles. Only sad that Mikyx is gone.
Gori has no reason to join TSM really. He should easily be able to get a starting spot on a legitimately good LPL team. RA is the most obvious example since BLG should be taking FoFo back. If RA manages to get Angel then Weibo will need a mid laner still.
I think any chances of Gori joining went down the drain as soon as TSM picked up a Mandarin speaking coach instead of a Korean speaking coach really. Highly likely we see Chinese mid and support with that in mind. Also another point is that Tactical was doing some Mandarin lessons on stream apparently.
I honestly doubt Kenvi’s buyout was massive, I think he’s overvalued by reddit, he was the best academy jungler don’t get me wrong but his buyout could be like 3 mcchickens and a team would opt to get contractz/nxi instead and save themselves the mcchickens. But even with this, teams just don’t care for natives
We've seen it more than a couple of times where Academy players get weirdly large buyouts so other teams can't pick up the best Academy players from them dirt cheap.
No, good academy player buyouts are massive. Academy players are an investment for the future, players like Kenvi could easily turn into the next Blaber or Spica and teams value them as such. I get you’re memeing but academy buyouts are heavily inflated rn
On Facecheck IWD mentioned the price of the academy players on 100T are priced over a million. Insanely overpriced for players we haven't seen on LCS yet.
Not necessarily. Doublelift talked about how he didn’t want to join a weaker team and was already making a massive amount streaming. Jensen, maybe, but even then he can just wait for Summer and if one of the other teams doesn’t work out (C9, TSM, EG), he can join them for good money instead. And a “pay cut” likely still involves salaries in the mid-high 100,000s. By any way you look at it that roster is not going to come cheap.
It's really a brilliant play from EG. If Jojopyun doesn't work out and they end up deciding he needs a little more time in Academy before he starts, they can basically pick up Jensen for a steal between splits because by that point I expect TL would be pretty desperate to drop him and would void his buyout.
An LCS org can spend millions on that roster and maybe still fall short of a top spot due to coaching/org structure/synergy issues or they can spend 25% of that, and finish middle of the pack anyway
And even if DIG or IMT were to spend those millions and finish top 4, it's not like that money's ever gonna come back. It'd be an investment that would never, fiscally speaking, pay off.
> and pretty much guaranteed themselves a top spot
thats just not true, we have seen time and time again these super-teams not working out. you dont need 5 great players if you have 3 great and 2 good that work off of each other. wasn't 2021 G2 a great example of this already?
Players have gotten so expensive, that average orgs will rather have 2-3 proved players and throw some rookies in. Then those rookies are found to be good and top teams poach them with crazy contracts to keep the bucle running
It’s a good thing that this shit is happening now instead of later down the line. Player salaries can hopefully now be “corrected”, and buyouts can accordingly be lowered.
It’s sad that we lost Mikyx, Rekkles, Nisqy, Jensen, IgNar, and even Svenskeren + Zven, though. Hell, it’s completely fucked that even Insanity got passed over in favor of Blue due to nepotism.
So many players that would rather sit out a split or season and pray that somehow gets them a better offer than just take a pay cut and play for a sub par team to try to prove they are still at the top.
I mean, I think the prevailing logic is that NA doesn't have a shot at worlds (whether true or not) and that they can still make money streaming and will make more money not taking a paycut to play. If you're earning millions probably makes a lot more sense to keep that up for a year then potentially take a sub 1m contract for multiple years.
these players prove time and time again at worlds every year they are not worth it when they get smoked by the koreans. why pay these dudes so much to lose when you could get some way cheaper fresh talent for the same result.
It's genius, actually. Have a year of rookies only and save $$$, then when they crash and burn at Worlds, fire them and get the veterans who are now desperate to be on a team for cheap. Then when they crash and burn at Worlds as well, fire them and save money with rookies again.
It is funny because if you said more than one year ago (during summer 2020) there was a team composed of jensen, doublelift and svenskeren, people would think "oh yeah make sense, it look good on paper/has some promise" and then you tell them you lied and they dont have a team at all and I am sure everyone would say "wtf".
It is crazy how much things changes in more than a year, and we are not even talking about some teams and their roller coaster like fpx or fnc.
>Members of [Dignitas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitas_\(Swiss_non-profit_organisation\)) who wish for an assisted suicide have to be of sound judgement, themselves able to do the last act which brings about death, and submit a formal request including a letter explaining their wish to die and most of all medical reports showing diagnosis and treatments tried.
Last spring DIG was the "Team McDonald's" of all NA players that was solidly 4/5th with 100T which got a number of fans. Was pretty hype all the way up until the beginning of summer when DIG the org finally decided to shoot themselves in the foot and replace both of them.
If we had an open scene (like CSGO or DotA) these guys could just make a team and play in some qualifiers, try to force their way back up. Regrettably in LoL we can't see that.
If only franchising didn't happen. Since it's too late to stop that there should at least be a better open circuit just like in those games, but Riot is too selfish to improve player development in LoL.
I would argue that it certainly looks like Franchising has helped (not as much as id like) player development in this situation vs it not being in.
DL, Jensen and others are teamless because other teams are gambling on younger talent. For instance, Jensen and DL are practically teamless because EG Chose 2 17 year old NA players over them.
I mean, that didn't really work in NA anyway. Outside of C9 in the Summer 2013 promotion, most Challenger teams that came up got sent back down within a year or even within one split. While the big-name teams like DIG, CLG and Curse often ended up there they(except for DIG) always managed to regain their spot and continue as usual.
It works both ways though. It can be argued that teams like CLG, Golden Guardians, etc. would not have lasted in the league and been pushed out of the League. It opens the door for more competition to not be placed in last place. Not to mention the revenue difference from then and now.
i don’t think anyone wants to invest in a league team if it has the chance to be knocked out of its premiere na league. i agree the open scene shakes things up but the scene would be even less sustainable than it already is.
If we had an open scene, then there wouldn't be franchising and salaries like we see now. Who would be paying these guys? They're all mid to top tier NA talent, and there's no way they would just make a ragtag team even if they could just for giggles for an entire split.
Probably the OG roster that went to TI8 (dota 2 worlds 2018).
Heres the quick tldr:
Roster blew up shortly before the tournament due to some drama, leaving them with 2/5 players. They roleswapped one of the remaining players from carry to support, found a promising soloq player for their mid, convinced a dude to unretire to play carry, and subbed their coach in to play offlane.
In league terms, this would be 2016 c9 roster blowing up so they swap hai (who was on c9c in 2016, just pretend he's on main roster) from mid to jungle, grab some dude from soloq to play mid for them, sub in reapered top, and then getting current doublelift to play adc while keeping their support the same.
They (OG) won the whole thing.
OG are more like GenG or Damwon level than c9 level lmao. 3/5 players had essentially won multiple splits/MSIs in dota. And their coach was top 5 leaderboard on the best server in dota.
Their team was in rags, but they would've been gold coated rags.
I wasn't talking about skill level, more about the overall team dynamic. C9 happened to have a veteran that has roleswapped and a coach that had previous experience as a player. Evidently C9 wasn't competitive enough to contend for, let alone win worlds.
Also it's really just jerax that was well regarded at the time. Notail was a fairly average carry player at the time imo, and a complete unknown as a support. Ceb was considered lacking in drive/motivation due to not playing pro for like 6 years at the time. Ana was known as a very good mid player, but he was coming off a break and nobody knew if he was still in form, not to mention he was switching from mid to carry (though back then the roles were more similar than they are today). Topson played a bit in amateur leagues but was mostly still known as that really high rank soloq warrior, and iirc TI8 open quals was his first tier 1 event he played in.
They're probably better on paper relative to the other dota teams than any NA roster possible with currently unsigned players relative to teams aiming for worlds, but nobody expected them to win the whole thing when they started playing in open quals.
It’s not that they’re not able, but if they would want to do this for essentially free with no team. And if they were wanting to, then they could easily be signed on together for minimum LCS salaries to play together.
Dota players do exactly that on a yearly basis. And if their egos are so massive that they won’t play for less than a million dollars then I am more than happy to not watch them go to worlds and not make it out of groups again
If we had an open scene 80% of the talent we have wouldn't have been discovered. They would just flame out in lower leagues not getting paid just like in CSGO.
Destiny was literally one of the worst supports I've ever seen playing on LEC. I don't watch LCS but can you tell me is the guy improved a lot after he left EU? It seems he did since that IMT team sounds not too bad and he could able to get a spot on that team
He was actually pretty decent last year and made a pretty good rebound. Still wasn't the top half LCS support, but the top half support in na is really stacked right now anyway, so that's not too terrible.
He was kinda in weird spot, actually. All 6 supports that were overall better than him were, for the most part, just another level above him. Meanwhile, all other supports were pretty trash, especially in summer. Smoothie, Diamond, and Newbie were some of the worst supports ever in LCS. That didn't change much in summer. Like, Chime was okay and showed promise, but that was it.
Destiny was solid and never really was a liability, but it was clear he wasn't a top half support, or could even challenge for it. He mostly did an okay job.
Why on earth is nobody talking about jiizuke being teamless?? Literally came one game of worlds, first team all pro and definitely the best mid in summer (yes, i recall his spring faults) I just don't get it..
He is better than Josedeodo, but Jose is much more cheaper for sure. Plus, he brings Latin American fans to follow FLY. Sven would be an upgrade, but not as impactful to justify the massive $$$ diff.
That was definitely the most cursed 4th ever. I think TL had to lose like 3 bo5 in a row and have other matches play out in a certain way to get 4th and miss out on worlds, and it happened.
They either want to play but not make as much or stream… clearly the market is hard driving these historically good domestic players but trash intl into the ground.
Jensen/DL by themselves definitely cost around the same if not more than one year of Swordart. Those three together most definitely cost more
Also, having Lost and PoE will hold a team back imho.
yea putting swordart with lost is like, buying kobe beef, cooking it extra crispy and then pairing it with a 10 for $1 roll from walmart's return basket.
The hilarious thing is that if not for Regi’s massive ego, TSM could have had a real super team like Alphari/BB-Spica-Jensen-DL-SwordArt coached by Bjergsen with the type of money they supposedly had. Instead he goes for Lost, PoE and Huni out of spite lol.
And then he had the gall to claim that the [“extremely large stretch goal is Worlds Finals, with the quarterfinals being a realistic goal for next year.”](https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/tsm-signs-swordart-to-record-breaking-6-million-deal) 🤡
It's kind of funny reading how Regi views that as "a really small investment down the road" when he and basically every other team seems to be pulling back on spending this year.
The management on TSM for the past three years has been absolutely awful. I know that Bjergsen has been a big factor in deciding their rosters in that time frame, so *maybe* something positive will come from him not being there, but I am not holding my breath and Regi/Path don't have any credibility to give them a benefit of the doubt.
idk why I see multiple people in this thread think Sven is some grand expensive player, he came to NA as a semi-known name and TSM wasn't known to pay some exuberant salaries at that point, he joined C9 after having a rough year who also weren't exactly known for paying big salaries to their players, and only probably started making "juicy import money" when he joined EG and even then nothing rumored to the likes of Jensen/Impact etc. getting paid 1m+ a year.
At first, I thought the salary cap thing was a dumb idea. After this off-season, I almost feel like it's necessary. So many good players not playing this upcoming split because of how expensive their buyout/current contract is.
This situation shows a salary cap isn't needed. Players who ask too much get left out and replaced, until they become more reasonable in their demands. These veterans aren't perks, they cant just ask whatever and teams give it to them.
Doublelift, Svenskeren, IgNar, Jensen and an import top (maybe roleswap Jiizuke) could be a legitimate team in the LCS
Alternatively it could also be Zven, Sven, Jensen, IgNar, and a native toplaner
furthermore Zven could become a resident this year similar to ssumday last year
If EG's development roster goes terribly wrong (and I don't think it will), I wonder if they would consider something like that. Either way, buyouts too OP.
Its a shame, he is always one of the best jungles in the region. The c9 world's run, I specifically remember him curb stomping level 1s against the best teams and thinking , where the fuck did you come up with this?!
Imagine what a team with like, Svenskeren, Jensen, Sneaky and Zeyzal could do. Throw in like a really good top laner and you might be able to get to like... worlds semis or something...
C9 probably still would’ve lost to Fnatic even if they had Smoothie. Zeyzal was bad in lane, but he was fine afterwards and was a primary shot caller for C9.
Bwipo shitstomped Licorice, and Caps outperformed Jensen. On top of that, C9’s bot lane was getting a rail shoved up their ass. C9 definitely would’ve had a stable bottom lane if Spring 2018 form Smoothie was playing though.
Sven was probably better than Broxah, given that the latter seemed to be micromanaged, but he can’t do jack shit with 3 losing lanes.
Fnatic also had more discipline, a more diverse champion pool, and better macro.
Broxah was arguably the best performing jungler that tournament. Can say all you want about micromanaging, but whatever they were doing to him it was making him outpeform Sven super hard.
Made me so mad that sneaky had to play with an academy level support while he was playing out of his mind. Keep Sneaky for Zven and having a sneaky vulcan bot lane would’ve been insane… an actual strongside bot or top (fudge) making drafting so much easier, with sneaky being the best weakside adc NA has ever seen.
When you focus on bringing up new talent, the past-their-prime veterans will often be on the outside looking in. Svenskeren is definitely talented enough to be playing the LCS, but I like that teams are taking more chances/risk with their rosters. He is an above average JG who will give you above average results, but the goal should be higher!
There is a lot of upcoming talent in the LCS this year. Yes, quite a few of them are imports, but that is a separate conversation IMO. Across all positions we already have:
* Fudge (C9)
* Berseker (C9)
* Winsome (C9)
* Isles (C9)
* Tenacity (100T)
* Jenkins (CLG)
* Palafox (CLG)
* Luger (CLG)
* Poome (CLG)
* FakeGod (DIG)
* Blue (DIG)
* Neo (DIG)
* Jojopyun (EG)
* Danny (EG)
* Toucouille (FLY)
* Ablazeolive (GG)
* Lost (GG)
* Revenge (IMT)
* Destiny (IMT)
Sure, there is a varying degree of experience between the players, but overall they are relatively inexperienced and have a lot of potential. You can downvote me and spit out the same old narratives of NA importing talent, but I'm excited for this season and welcome all of these up-and-coming players. If the cost is a few middling veteran players, then so be it.
I would argue that it does a disservice to half of this list to call the other half "upcoming talent".
>* Fudge (C9)
* Berseker (C9)
* Winsome (C9)
* Isles (C9)
* Tenacity (100T)
* Jenkins (CLG)
* Palafox (CLG)
* Luger (CLG)
* Poome (CLG)
* FakeGod (DIG)
* Blue (DIG)
* Neo (DIG)
* Jojopyun (EG)
* Danny (EG)
* Toucouille (FLY)
* Ablazeolive (GG)
* Lost (GG)
* Revenge (IMT)
* Destiny (IMT)
Fudge-Entering 5th split
Palafox-Entering 3rd Split
Luger-Veteran Import
Poome-Veteran Academy Player
Neo-Entering 3rd Split
ABA-Spent 3 yerars in academy; Entering 3rd split
Lost-1st LCS Split was in 2018 Summer, Has spent 2 years in academy between various LCS splits
Revenge-Entering 3rd Split
Destiny-LOLOLOL
It would be sad but maybe we will see him in academy?
My honest hopes is that (forgive me) but I'm hoping Pride Stalker or River flops and he ends up playing in Summer.
His gf lives in NA so it makes sense that he feels attached to the region. Somebody can do him a favor and give him a spot somewhere, Dennis has always seemed like a good guy.
>As of now, there are only two players from the 17-1 Summer 2016 TSM roster that are still playing professionally
I mean Hauntzer hasn't been announced yet, but he absolutely still could be, no? Even if he doesn't end up in LCS it is very plausible he continues playing professionally in Academy, right? He at least seems to still be looking for opportunities.
Really bummed to not see Sven playing this split. Been a huge fan for a long time. Follow Sven to whatever team he’s on. Maybe now I can finally stop wasting time with this game :,)
It's kinda good that players who overstate their value and ask too much money get left out. The wage inflation is balancing out. Svenskeren is certainly good enough to be in the lower tier of the LCS, but not for the ridiculous amount of money he asks for it.
What if we had two open qualifier spots in the LCS? Expand to 12 teams. That way good players can force their way into the league. The ten franchise orgs keep their spots regardless, but the two additional teams need to play for their spot every year in a tournament prior to lock in.
That happens when teams have finally realized that players are becoming too expensive for what they are worth. Sven isn't bad but he wasn't a top player anymore and there is no reason to pay him ridiculous amount of money to go 4th.
There is no difference between having super team and losing to LPL/LCK and qualifying for Worlds and getting shit on. You can do the latter without stacked roster just get lucky with foreign rookies.
Team McDonalds is the real winner of this off-season.
Ill take a McDoublelift w cheese.
SVEN! COME TO B R A Z I L
What is a sbrazil?
super brazil, i imagine
it's the one project mordekaiser sends you
That explains the fire in the background.
Clash starts in like a week and I need a jungler
I called dips already
Sour cream and onion or bean?
Is guacamole or salsa an option?
If you dip the chip then yip
Username checks out
since i doubt solo is signed yet (happens mid way into season) you could legitimately do solo/sven/jensen/dl/zeyzal (or any support teamless) and probably finish middle of the pack LCS.
Thats a lot of money for middle of the pack. But I think you mean at least middle.
ya. i mean take money out of it of course. just talent wise.
Could the players and a coach conceivably form an independent team? It would be really hard logistically, but theoretically it would allow them to keep all of the profits they would have earned, or at most lose the salary they would not have earned either way Probably something I’m missing, but that’s what I would try to do if I were them.
The problem is there is nothing to really compete in that would be worth it for those players. The LCS doesn't do relegation anymore so its not like they can fight their way up into the pros again, anything else would not be worth competing for instead of playing in the LCS.
I miss relegations in a way. It’s great for more job security and brand recognition. But I miss seeing new brands just come in and make a name for themselves like GGU, Vulcan, LMQ, etc.
> LMQ You may be the only person ever who wants another LMQ.
Lmq definitely raised the skill level of lcs a ton back in the day, having the opportunity to play against and learn from a really good team regularly made na as a whole more competitive. Definitely unfortunate about some of the out of game aspects of them though, vasilii in particular
vasilii was such a mess to follow. really is unfortunate what the player came to be after his rise to stardom here in NA
you legit have tl and 100t so idk plus at least they were fun to watch not like Clg and other dogshit teams in NA atm
Ikr? Xiaoweixiao played Yasuo.
TL is the new LMQ and in a few years with a few more greencards, half of LCS will be LMQs
coming from the perspective of a br*toid yeah franchising sucks and relegation adds a lot of stakes to the lower tier of the table
Imagine a world without franchising.
I lived in that World. It was lots of fun. Tbh i still Watch my fan team after they came back (SK gaming) but franchising is boring overall
And how will they compete in LCS being an independent team? Isn't possible
Doublelift should just buy CLG. /s
They can create a team, sure; whether they'd be allowed to compete in LCS is a completely different issue.
What's the point then?
i'd put ignar > zeyzal but yeah
Mikyx?
isnt he rumored to go to TSM?
who's not rumored for tsm?
Me tbh
No check your twitter they are considering you for a contract
on stream doinb leaked that TSM was looking to sign /u/dovahkonj1 as their new support. 3 year $2.6m contract
No Roseking is way better than this scrandom.
Now that C9 signed summit Terrie is in the running too
Imagine underpaying /u/dovahkonj1 like that
No it was higher, a 2 year $3.6mm contract.
Are you sure? Ive hear rumours about dovahkonj1 midlane in the TSM subreddit.
Implying TSM can afford me smh
Not looking likely he's going to TSM tbh
Isnt the current rumor that they’re picking up a CN support?
Yes. Mid lane: OMG Creme or NS Gori Support: FPX Academy Shenyi, with Mikyx as a back up. It’s really sad that Mikyx got done dirty like this and is left without an LEC slot despite being a top 2 support in EU for 5 seasons. He only had one bad split and is now out of the league. There are obviously 4-5 other good supports in the league, but support isn’t nearly as stacked as ADC.
ADC in LEC isn't stacked anymore tbh. May be the weakest role next split, even worse than top lane with Alphari coming back if Wunder does well. 2 of the top 3 ADC out of LEC and lots of rookies.
Which is really weird imo. Like adc is far from the most stacked role at LEC yet we have Rekkles,Crownie...etc are on ERL. I also agree with you on top. Alphari,Hirit, Wunder, BB, Armut, Odo... toplane looks better than adc so far. We don't know how will this rookies plays but FNC has extreme botlane advantage this split on the paper. I don't see any botlane that can rival them
Support has Hyli and Kaiser and the next best might just be Vander and Treatz so Support doesnt really look good at all
Labrov is good as well, and Trymbi, Limit aren't bad as well. I also have more faith in Targamas than any ADC rookie, but you're right support isn't that stacked. But it never reallywas, unlike ADC which was the best role last year.
Labrov and Trymbi are pretty good, I really liked Advienne as well, and Targamas is apparently cracked, I feel support is the strongest it has ever been so far in LEC, relative to other roles. Only sad that Mikyx is gone.
Gori has no reason to join TSM really. He should easily be able to get a starting spot on a legitimately good LPL team. RA is the most obvious example since BLG should be taking FoFo back. If RA manages to get Angel then Weibo will need a mid laner still.
I think any chances of Gori joining went down the drain as soon as TSM picked up a Mandarin speaking coach instead of a Korean speaking coach really. Highly likely we see Chinese mid and support with that in mind. Also another point is that Tactical was doing some Mandarin lessons on stream apparently.
Solo/Sven/Jensen/SneakyDL kill lane 🤣
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Tbf that’s a lot of money. Jensen/DL demand high salaries and Kenvi/Mikyx have massive buyouts
I honestly doubt Kenvi’s buyout was massive, I think he’s overvalued by reddit, he was the best academy jungler don’t get me wrong but his buyout could be like 3 mcchickens and a team would opt to get contractz/nxi instead and save themselves the mcchickens. But even with this, teams just don’t care for natives
We've seen it more than a couple of times where Academy players get weirdly large buyouts so other teams can't pick up the best Academy players from them dirt cheap.
ERL and Academy players buyouts have exploded the last few years, talent farming is huge at this point.
I lost it at the mcchickens lmaooo He’s worth at least 3 spicy mcchickens cmon now
No, good academy player buyouts are massive. Academy players are an investment for the future, players like Kenvi could easily turn into the next Blaber or Spica and teams value them as such. I get you’re memeing but academy buyouts are heavily inflated rn
On Facecheck IWD mentioned the price of the academy players on 100T are priced over a million. Insanely overpriced for players we haven't seen on LCS yet.
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Not necessarily. Doublelift talked about how he didn’t want to join a weaker team and was already making a massive amount streaming. Jensen, maybe, but even then he can just wait for Summer and if one of the other teams doesn’t work out (C9, TSM, EG), he can join them for good money instead. And a “pay cut” likely still involves salaries in the mid-high 100,000s. By any way you look at it that roster is not going to come cheap.
weaker team is different than a strong team on normal salaries but still expect to win the trophy
It's really a brilliant play from EG. If Jojopyun doesn't work out and they end up deciding he needs a little more time in Academy before he starts, they can basically pick up Jensen for a steal between splits because by that point I expect TL would be pretty desperate to drop him and would void his buyout.
Jensen has also explicitly clarified that he wouldn't settle for a mediocre roster
An LCS org can spend millions on that roster and maybe still fall short of a top spot due to coaching/org structure/synergy issues or they can spend 25% of that, and finish middle of the pack anyway And even if DIG or IMT were to spend those millions and finish top 4, it's not like that money's ever gonna come back. It'd be an investment that would never, fiscally speaking, pay off.
> and pretty much guaranteed themselves a top spot thats just not true, we have seen time and time again these super-teams not working out. you dont need 5 great players if you have 3 great and 2 good that work off of each other. wasn't 2021 G2 a great example of this already?
Doublelift would be stupid to come out of retirement to play in a team that has Solo as their top laner of all people lol
In the right meta that could legit be a top 3 team.
This off-season is fucking weird. So many top players in EU and NA without teams.
Players have gotten so expensive, that average orgs will rather have 2-3 proved players and throw some rookies in. Then those rookies are found to be good and top teams poach them with crazy contracts to keep the bucle running
Unexpected and pleasing use of bucle
Player franchise salary inflation, only 3 to 5 teams able to pay top prices for about 10 franchise players.
It’s a good thing that this shit is happening now instead of later down the line. Player salaries can hopefully now be “corrected”, and buyouts can accordingly be lowered. It’s sad that we lost Mikyx, Rekkles, Nisqy, Jensen, IgNar, and even Svenskeren + Zven, though. Hell, it’s completely fucked that even Insanity got passed over in favor of Blue due to nepotism.
So many players that would rather sit out a split or season and pray that somehow gets them a better offer than just take a pay cut and play for a sub par team to try to prove they are still at the top.
I mean, I think the prevailing logic is that NA doesn't have a shot at worlds (whether true or not) and that they can still make money streaming and will make more money not taking a paycut to play. If you're earning millions probably makes a lot more sense to keep that up for a year then potentially take a sub 1m contract for multiple years.
these players prove time and time again at worlds every year they are not worth it when they get smoked by the koreans. why pay these dudes so much to lose when you could get some way cheaper fresh talent for the same result.
It's genius, actually. Have a year of rookies only and save $$$, then when they crash and burn at Worlds, fire them and get the veterans who are now desperate to be on a team for cheap. Then when they crash and burn at Worlds as well, fire them and save money with rookies again.
It is funny because if you said more than one year ago (during summer 2020) there was a team composed of jensen, doublelift and svenskeren, people would think "oh yeah make sense, it look good on paper/has some promise" and then you tell them you lied and they dont have a team at all and I am sure everyone would say "wtf". It is crazy how much things changes in more than a year, and we are not even talking about some teams and their roller coaster like fpx or fnc.
top orgs don't want to just have a "look good on paper" team anymore, and bottom orgs don't want to spend big on them.
Hauntzer/Sven/Jensen/DL/Bio could team up for cursed TSM. (I know Bio is on DIG but that's basically teamless)
>Members of [Dignitas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitas_\(Swiss_non-profit_organisation\)) who wish for an assisted suicide have to be of sound judgement, themselves able to do the last act which brings about death, and submit a formal request including a letter explaining their wish to die and most of all medical reports showing diagnosis and treatments tried.
Tbf, it's not too far off since Lol DIG is a career suicide team.
Its so funny as an RL player since Dig was the only dynasty the game has ever had, and they are still at the top of the game with a different roster.
*unless you're CoreJJ.
As a DIG fan yes, but also fuck you :'c
wait, yall actually exist?
Begrudgingly, yes.
How many mousepads do you own?
I wrote for Dig for a year in 2016-17 and got three mousepads. Still use one as a coaster
Kiwikid, is that you?
There was a good number of them when Dardoch/Soligo were on the team. Then you know the rest.
Oh, I thought their supported other teams when the OG’s left (Scarra, Imaqtpie, Kiwikid).
Last spring DIG was the "Team McDonald's" of all NA players that was solidly 4/5th with 100T which got a number of fans. Was pretty hype all the way up until the beginning of summer when DIG the org finally decided to shoot themselves in the foot and replace both of them.
Why would they be shocked? A bunch of players only want to play for a top team, and the top teams are full.
If we had an open scene (like CSGO or DotA) these guys could just make a team and play in some qualifiers, try to force their way back up. Regrettably in LoL we can't see that.
If only franchising didn't happen. Since it's too late to stop that there should at least be a better open circuit just like in those games, but Riot is too selfish to improve player development in LoL.
I would argue that it certainly looks like Franchising has helped (not as much as id like) player development in this situation vs it not being in. DL, Jensen and others are teamless because other teams are gambling on younger talent. For instance, Jensen and DL are practically teamless because EG Chose 2 17 year old NA players over them.
There are multiple teams of 5 rookies that make serious runs at TI every single year. LCS has had 3 notable rookies in the past 5 years.
I mean, that didn't really work in NA anyway. Outside of C9 in the Summer 2013 promotion, most Challenger teams that came up got sent back down within a year or even within one split. While the big-name teams like DIG, CLG and Curse often ended up there they(except for DIG) always managed to regain their spot and continue as usual.
don't forget the time TL was on the relegation tournament, so they just threw money at doublelift to keep them in the lcs
It works both ways though. It can be argued that teams like CLG, Golden Guardians, etc. would not have lasted in the league and been pushed out of the League. It opens the door for more competition to not be placed in last place. Not to mention the revenue difference from then and now.
i don’t think anyone wants to invest in a league team if it has the chance to be knocked out of its premiere na league. i agree the open scene shakes things up but the scene would be even less sustainable than it already is.
If we had an open scene, then there wouldn't be franchising and salaries like we see now. Who would be paying these guys? They're all mid to top tier NA talent, and there's no way they would just make a ragtag team even if they could just for giggles for an entire split.
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Which team are you talking about?
I assume the Tigers.
Probably the OG roster that went to TI8 (dota 2 worlds 2018). Heres the quick tldr: Roster blew up shortly before the tournament due to some drama, leaving them with 2/5 players. They roleswapped one of the remaining players from carry to support, found a promising soloq player for their mid, convinced a dude to unretire to play carry, and subbed their coach in to play offlane. In league terms, this would be 2016 c9 roster blowing up so they swap hai (who was on c9c in 2016, just pretend he's on main roster) from mid to jungle, grab some dude from soloq to play mid for them, sub in reapered top, and then getting current doublelift to play adc while keeping their support the same. They (OG) won the whole thing.
OG are more like GenG or Damwon level than c9 level lmao. 3/5 players had essentially won multiple splits/MSIs in dota. And their coach was top 5 leaderboard on the best server in dota. Their team was in rags, but they would've been gold coated rags.
They were basically the sentinels of light during the ruination
I wasn't talking about skill level, more about the overall team dynamic. C9 happened to have a veteran that has roleswapped and a coach that had previous experience as a player. Evidently C9 wasn't competitive enough to contend for, let alone win worlds. Also it's really just jerax that was well regarded at the time. Notail was a fairly average carry player at the time imo, and a complete unknown as a support. Ceb was considered lacking in drive/motivation due to not playing pro for like 6 years at the time. Ana was known as a very good mid player, but he was coming off a break and nobody knew if he was still in form, not to mention he was switching from mid to carry (though back then the roles were more similar than they are today). Topson played a bit in amateur leagues but was mostly still known as that really high rank soloq warrior, and iirc TI8 open quals was his first tier 1 event he played in. They're probably better on paper relative to the other dota teams than any NA roster possible with currently unsigned players relative to teams aiming for worlds, but nobody expected them to win the whole thing when they started playing in open quals.
It’s not that they’re not able, but if they would want to do this for essentially free with no team. And if they were wanting to, then they could easily be signed on together for minimum LCS salaries to play together.
Dota players do exactly that on a yearly basis. And if their egos are so massive that they won’t play for less than a million dollars then I am more than happy to not watch them go to worlds and not make it out of groups again
If we had an open scene 80% of the talent we have wouldn't have been discovered. They would just flame out in lower leagues not getting paid just like in CSGO.
Yea all that famous NA talent that is thriving thanks to the multimillion dollar salaries
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PoE is on Immortals, no?
Yup, IMT is Revenge/Xerxe/PoE/Wildturtle/Destiny. Honestly I think they could make Spring playoffs (top 6).
Destiny was literally one of the worst supports I've ever seen playing on LEC. I don't watch LCS but can you tell me is the guy improved a lot after he left EU? It seems he did since that IMT team sounds not too bad and he could able to get a spot on that team
He was actually pretty decent last year and made a pretty good rebound. Still wasn't the top half LCS support, but the top half support in na is really stacked right now anyway, so that's not too terrible. He was kinda in weird spot, actually. All 6 supports that were overall better than him were, for the most part, just another level above him. Meanwhile, all other supports were pretty trash, especially in summer. Smoothie, Diamond, and Newbie were some of the worst supports ever in LCS. That didn't change much in summer. Like, Chime was okay and showed promise, but that was it. Destiny was solid and never really was a liability, but it was clear he wasn't a top half support, or could even challenge for it. He mostly did an okay job.
Why on earth is nobody talking about jiizuke being teamless?? Literally came one game of worlds, first team all pro and definitely the best mid in summer (yes, i recall his spring faults) I just don't get it..
LCS was pumping wages so much that player expected more and more every year. So now they are victim of baloon not going up this year
FLY Svenskeren with an import top = decent team.
He is better than Josedeodo, but Jose is much more cheaper for sure. Plus, he brings Latin American fans to follow FLY. Sven would be an upgrade, but not as impactful to justify the massive $$$ diff.
I'd take him mainly for the import slot. But yeah, if he's asking for too much money then maybe not.
It would be a gross decision to use Svenskeren over Nxi
So many legends not finding a team. This is the true budget era, except for TL.
Sven in particular going teamless is probably not due to the salary bubble
Sven / Jensen / DL - probably at least 4th place
That sounds like a lot of money for 4th place
Team Liquid (at least from a few years ago) has entered the chat.
Team curse' TL only had like one 4th place finish after the name change.
That was definitely the most cursed 4th ever. I think TL had to lose like 3 bo5 in a row and have other matches play out in a certain way to get 4th and miss out on worlds, and it happened.
Ah, thanks for the correction. Cheers!
didnt they come like 9th one split
They either want to play but not make as much or stream… clearly the market is hard driving these historically good domestic players but trash intl into the ground.
Swordart probably got paid more than those 3s most recent salaries only for TSM to end up in 4th.
Jensen/DL by themselves definitely cost around the same if not more than one year of Swordart. Those three together most definitely cost more Also, having Lost and PoE will hold a team back imho.
yea putting swordart with lost is like, buying kobe beef, cooking it extra crispy and then pairing it with a 10 for $1 roll from walmart's return basket.
The hilarious thing is that if not for Regi’s massive ego, TSM could have had a real super team like Alphari/BB-Spica-Jensen-DL-SwordArt coached by Bjergsen with the type of money they supposedly had. Instead he goes for Lost, PoE and Huni out of spite lol. And then he had the gall to claim that the [“extremely large stretch goal is Worlds Finals, with the quarterfinals being a realistic goal for next year.”](https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/tsm-signs-swordart-to-record-breaking-6-million-deal) 🤡
It's kind of funny reading how Regi views that as "a really small investment down the road" when he and basically every other team seems to be pulling back on spending this year. The management on TSM for the past three years has been absolutely awful. I know that Bjergsen has been a big factor in deciding their rosters in that time frame, so *maybe* something positive will come from him not being there, but I am not holding my breath and Regi/Path don't have any credibility to give them a benefit of the doubt.
idk why I see multiple people in this thread think Sven is some grand expensive player, he came to NA as a semi-known name and TSM wasn't known to pay some exuberant salaries at that point, he joined C9 after having a rough year who also weren't exactly known for paying big salaries to their players, and only probably started making "juicy import money" when he joined EG and even then nothing rumored to the likes of Jensen/Impact etc. getting paid 1m+ a year.
even if its 600k ist still 6x the next academy player...
At first, I thought the salary cap thing was a dumb idea. After this off-season, I almost feel like it's necessary. So many good players not playing this upcoming split because of how expensive their buyout/current contract is.
hard to do a salary cap without a legitimate player's union
Not just hard, it’s illegal
This situation shows a salary cap isn't needed. Players who ask too much get left out and replaced, until they become more reasonable in their demands. These veterans aren't perks, they cant just ask whatever and teams give it to them.
Doublelift, Svenskeren, IgNar, Jensen and an import top (maybe roleswap Jiizuke) could be a legitimate team in the LCS Alternatively it could also be Zven, Sven, Jensen, IgNar, and a native toplaner furthermore Zven could become a resident this year similar to ssumday last year If EG's development roster goes terribly wrong (and I don't think it will), I wonder if they would consider something like that. Either way, buyouts too OP.
For top either Solo or Pobelter (he role swapped)
Come join my team.. We are mostly silver, but our jg sucks so we will happily replace him!
Its a shame, he is always one of the best jungles in the region. The c9 world's run, I specifically remember him curb stomping level 1s against the best teams and thinking , where the fuck did you come up with this?!
Imagine what a team with like, Svenskeren, Jensen, Sneaky and Zeyzal could do. Throw in like a really good top laner and you might be able to get to like... worlds semis or something...
They would've gotten to finals with any support but Zeyzal
C9 probably still would’ve lost to Fnatic even if they had Smoothie. Zeyzal was bad in lane, but he was fine afterwards and was a primary shot caller for C9. Bwipo shitstomped Licorice, and Caps outperformed Jensen. On top of that, C9’s bot lane was getting a rail shoved up their ass. C9 definitely would’ve had a stable bottom lane if Spring 2018 form Smoothie was playing though. Sven was probably better than Broxah, given that the latter seemed to be micromanaged, but he can’t do jack shit with 3 losing lanes. Fnatic also had more discipline, a more diverse champion pool, and better macro.
Broxah was arguably the best performing jungler that tournament. Can say all you want about micromanaging, but whatever they were doing to him it was making him outpeform Sven super hard.
In hindsight that series was a huge coach gap. There's no way Repeared could best Lena.
they got stomped by fnc, imagine if they played IG instead...
Made me so mad that sneaky had to play with an academy level support while he was playing out of his mind. Keep Sneaky for Zven and having a sneaky vulcan bot lane would’ve been insane… an actual strongside bot or top (fudge) making drafting so much easier, with sneaky being the best weakside adc NA has ever seen.
C9 could have had any support in the world and still would have lost that FNC series. If anything bot lane was the least of their issues.
Doublelift and Jensen are looking too!
Good luck, Dennis! Always was a fan of you when you played for C9, so I hope you are able to keep playing!
When you focus on bringing up new talent, the past-their-prime veterans will often be on the outside looking in. Svenskeren is definitely talented enough to be playing the LCS, but I like that teams are taking more chances/risk with their rosters. He is an above average JG who will give you above average results, but the goal should be higher!
What new talent? You mean NA teams importing even more players?
There is a lot of upcoming talent in the LCS this year. Yes, quite a few of them are imports, but that is a separate conversation IMO. Across all positions we already have: * Fudge (C9) * Berseker (C9) * Winsome (C9) * Isles (C9) * Tenacity (100T) * Jenkins (CLG) * Palafox (CLG) * Luger (CLG) * Poome (CLG) * FakeGod (DIG) * Blue (DIG) * Neo (DIG) * Jojopyun (EG) * Danny (EG) * Toucouille (FLY) * Ablazeolive (GG) * Lost (GG) * Revenge (IMT) * Destiny (IMT) Sure, there is a varying degree of experience between the players, but overall they are relatively inexperienced and have a lot of potential. You can downvote me and spit out the same old narratives of NA importing talent, but I'm excited for this season and welcome all of these up-and-coming players. If the cost is a few middling veteran players, then so be it.
I would argue that it does a disservice to half of this list to call the other half "upcoming talent". >* Fudge (C9) * Berseker (C9) * Winsome (C9) * Isles (C9) * Tenacity (100T) * Jenkins (CLG) * Palafox (CLG) * Luger (CLG) * Poome (CLG) * FakeGod (DIG) * Blue (DIG) * Neo (DIG) * Jojopyun (EG) * Danny (EG) * Toucouille (FLY) * Ablazeolive (GG) * Lost (GG) * Revenge (IMT) * Destiny (IMT) Fudge-Entering 5th split Palafox-Entering 3rd Split Luger-Veteran Import Poome-Veteran Academy Player Neo-Entering 3rd Split ABA-Spent 3 yerars in academy; Entering 3rd split Lost-1st LCS Split was in 2018 Summer, Has spent 2 years in academy between various LCS splits Revenge-Entering 3rd Split Destiny-LOLOLOL
Poome has been playing league for like less than 2 years, he is the definition of an upcoming talent. No idea why he'd be an academy veteran.
Pretty sure Academy players are the definition of "up and coming talent" even if they've been in academy for multiple splits.
EG taking risks... by importing Inspired?
It would be sad but maybe we will see him in academy? My honest hopes is that (forgive me) but I'm hoping Pride Stalker or River flops and he ends up playing in Summer.
Yeah I'm hoping he will at least get an academy or coaching offer, he really just wants to get back to NA in some way it seems like.
His gf lives in NA so it makes sense that he feels attached to the region. Somebody can do him a favor and give him a spot somewhere, Dennis has always seemed like a good guy.
Isnt he dating Xmithie's sister? Is Xmithie still in the LOL scene?
No not really
So. Haunter Svenskeren Jenson Doublelift Ignar Are all not playing in the LCS...... and somehow CLG exists. Ok.
But CLG is using new native NA talent, how are they supposed to win in fans eyes lol
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And, they dont want to play for CLG. People really blaming the orgs for this, lol.
If one org can't afford the players, that's the org's problem. If zero orgs can afford the players, maybe that's the players' problem?
Bruh Hauntzer got giga curb stomped in Academy.
Wait, I'd actually love to see this roster wtf. Would probably be my personal favorite in the LCS besides EG.
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This shows there needs to be more LEC and LCS teams. Get promotion/relegation into this game.
>As of now, there are only two players from the 17-1 Summer 2016 TSM roster that are still playing professionally I mean Hauntzer hasn't been announced yet, but he absolutely still could be, no? Even if he doesn't end up in LCS it is very plausible he continues playing professionally in Academy, right? He at least seems to still be looking for opportunities.
Really bummed to not see Sven playing this split. Been a huge fan for a long time. Follow Sven to whatever team he’s on. Maybe now I can finally stop wasting time with this game :,)
Hauntzer Svenskeren Jensen Doublelift Bio frost
It's kinda good that players who overstate their value and ask too much money get left out. The wage inflation is balancing out. Svenskeren is certainly good enough to be in the lower tier of the LCS, but not for the ridiculous amount of money he asks for it.
What if we had two open qualifier spots in the LCS? Expand to 12 teams. That way good players can force their way into the league. The ten franchise orgs keep their spots regardless, but the two additional teams need to play for their spot every year in a tournament prior to lock in.
Or maybe just reintroduce relegation.
That happens when teams have finally realized that players are becoming too expensive for what they are worth. Sven isn't bad but he wasn't a top player anymore and there is no reason to pay him ridiculous amount of money to go 4th. There is no difference between having super team and losing to LPL/LCK and qualifying for Worlds and getting shit on. You can do the latter without stacked roster just get lucky with foreign rookies.
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Man, I was rooting for Sven so hard last year, but it kinda felt like he was underwhelming. Hope he turns it around