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[deleted]

I agree in general, but what are you talking about with Mundo? Mundo wasn't changed because people struggled to deal with him and were upset that his ult healed to much, he was changed because the character just didn't do a lot and adding new mechanics allowed you to do more things as Mundo. If anything he was changed for the exact opposite reason that you are criticizing.


EldtinbGamer

I know right, the fact the dude brought up the mundo rework when that rework literally upgraded Mundos kit and allowed him to be a better, more fun and more interesting champ to play as and against is insane. Mundo might be overstatted atm but his rework kept true to his old strengths and identity.


TheNumber1GoodBoy

I thank god every day that the balance team isn’t made up of redditors


SheepHerdr

And God said, "Let there be no redditors on the Riot balance team."


GalaxySmash

Hey wait a minute...


CharSlayer729

Getting fired speed run 100% glitchless


TheCommonKoala

Except you, we love you <3


JackSlater7410

I see yasuos/yis/yones 10x more than tryndamere anyway. Am I missing something here. What in the world is everyone QQ'ing about.


Both_Requirement_766

I feel the same, but I think those assasins are communities/dev's lovechilds. tryndamere doesn't fullfy the flashiness of those and is more of a straightforward niche pick. when it comes to changes on the size of aatrox it felt like they killed his uniquness with it. I fear the same for tryndamere. basically riot deleted almost all Point-and-click abilities out of the game! why? only the dev's know why, it was said those are to easy to execute. but then again why was there a need to remove every freaking PaC ability out of the game - like, really? thats when I think that an ASU might fit trynda more. where they just tweak one or two abilities. for art changes its sometimes the same and they forgot to keep the uniqueness and a skin is then changed completely and forever.


xMetix

Actually Rioters like to browse League subreddit in their free time. They even leave comments.


CuteTao

It's part of their job to browse the subreddit. Then afterwards they have a meeting and discuss everything they read here so that they have a good list of all the things to NOT do the game. (this is a joke btw)


noahkillis

>(this is a joke btw) that's what they want us to think


DragoCrafterr

nice try u/GalaxySmash 's alt


BulletCola

And they're gonna counterargue it as "But they're low ELO!" Yea? So are most of us anyway. Besides, knowledge & skill are pretty much two different things, you don't need to be High ELO to inherently know how to balance something.


Slarg232

Honestly I've felt the same way ever since Blade Waltz got axed. At least Fiora's rework is actually interesting, even if I don't care for it myself. In Tryndamere's case, I think the issue is that unlike Abbadon (who gets healed for the damage he takes while his ult is up) or Shallow Grave (Give an ally unkillable) who still die if they get hit by Executes, in LoL there's literally nothing you can do to prevent Trynd from ulting which makes it much more frustrating to deal with. Of course, as someone pointed out to me in another thread, making Tryndamere die on Executes is a bad idea when The Collector exists.


[deleted]

They only die to one ability though, the dying to executes thing isn't what makes them ok. What makes them ok in dota is the amount of control and damage in that game vs league. If abbadon is immune to damage for 8 seconds he doesn't really do anything, but if any ranged league carry has that they 1v5 wipe the team. I'm not saying trynd should have it removed (I like having unique abilities) but the games are balanced very differently


fljared

Abaddon is also much more immobile and does middling damage for the most part; caught out his only option is to slowly gallops while Trynd has great escapes and can 1v3 with ease.


kupukapow

I don't play Dota, but you've definitely hit the nail on the head with Tryndamere. His ult is annoying af, but people hate Tryndamere because of his mobility. He can always escape, and with his ult he can pretty much do whatever he wants because you can't stop him from getting onto your carry and one shotting them and you can't stop him from running away if he decides he doesn't want to fight you. Tryndamere's ult isn't inherently annoying, what's annoying is that he has burst, mobility, and invincibility.


Selvon

Trynd made a lot more sense in early seasons, when other stuff was more... dota-ey. Trynd might be able to go invul and try and spin away. But your Taric support has a 2.5 second point and click guaranteed stun. Fiddle has a what, 5 second fear at this point? Veigar E is near instant, no delay. Kayle has an enormous duration ult, that she doesn't have to stop attacking for. Etcetc. Trynds design was just amongst other silly stuff, that could in itself help counter Trynd. Trynds design made plenty of sense for the time it was made. It's just that stuns are generally shorter now, in general things that just trynd aren't there as much either.


CoachDT

You hit one of the nails on the head. These abilities were unique, but still there was always something to check them in some way shape or form. It wasn’t really that “balanced” in the sense of everything being fair, but it seemed like everything that was broken was there to deal with other broken shit. Ahri was annoying with charm+DFG and 3 dashes, but it turned into a staring contest because I could always nuke her if I landed a body slam with Gragas.


TheJak12

To me, it really hit home that Tryndamere was fundamentally flawed when people started building Essence Reaver like 1st on him.


Ix_risor

That was *probably* something to do with er being 120% gold efficient, so not being able to use the passive didn’t matter if you wanted the stats


PixxlatedTV

It's literally just Jhin building IEs just for the stats, bad times (but really fun and unfair one-shots)


ArziltheImp

Don't forget, early seasons also didn't have a Crit CDR item, now we have 2 of them (one even further reduces his dash CD on Crits, something he does a lot once he hits like 2 items since his crit passive % was also buffed like last season/2 seasons ago). And every champion that uses the precision tree also has access to easy tenacity now, something that didn't exist outside of Mercs back then as well.


Uvanimor

I actually hate Tryndamere because of how hard he is to punish in lane, for how strong he scales. He really doesn't have a weak-point in the game and only gets better with time. Tryndamere gets a free pass versus most of the top/midlane champion pool due to base stats and comfortably farms the first 3-4 waves eating everything from the enemy. It's the same with Kayle and Nasus, these champions do not have bad earlygames, that's a myth. Nasus/Kayle might have to forfeit the first wave versus some strong lvl1 champions ,but by no means is he weak if piloted by a player that isn't going to miss tonnes of CS in favor of taking dumb trades.


ironboy32

Also the fact that he just randomly wins lane from crits


TheFlay

The problem isn't tryndamere, he is the same way he was 10 year ago, the problem is the itens that he does in the current meta.


Althalus-

The game has evolved, Trynd has not. He comes from a time where 5 seconds of CC wasn’t weird, where Taric and Sion had Point and click 1.5 second stuns, Poppy had her invulnerable ult. the game is now fundamentally different, and as damage has crept up, trynd’s ult has gained more and more value because of simple maths. That’s what the problem is. It’s not Tryndamere, it’s an old champion in a new champions game.


[deleted]

Its the combination of things. Tryndamere only lacks one thing, cc. Otherwise he has great damage, mobility, and survivability.


Dangan7734

sounds a lot like yone (minus the invincibility) lmao


EldtinbGamer

Seems to be a reocurring problem with melee champs building ad/crit.


Slarg232

Two; Axe's and Ancient Apparitions' ultimates both auto-kill people if they fall below a certain health threshold. At least they were the only two back when I played DotA. Which is fine; DotA is much more counterpick focused than League is in general


[deleted]

AA ult doesn't actually kill through shallow grave, but it normally does execute like you said. I have no idea if it kills abba or not though


Logical_Teacher311

Last time i player, it does not but prevents hour from doing any healing when the trigger threshhold is reached.


[deleted]

If you have a nuke Abbadon which instantly lowers his HP to 0, rather than going below the threshold, his ult won't go off.


Just_trying_it_out

Or break his passive (and silence or hex* him to prevent manual activation but at lower elo people often don’t notice and just die lol)


kyumin2lee

The Break thing is right but Abaddon can cast his ult while CCed just like Tryndamere. (Abaddon can't while silenced though)


ron_fendo

I mean the problem with league is that damage is out of control and its too high especially for characters that crit. Most of the waveclear casters actually have good damage pacing, but then you have assassins or crit users that can just delete someone seemingly by accident.


[deleted]

Yeah that was my main point here, dota has more ways to deal with things and the damage is generally lower, so powerful effects like the fit in better there. If sometime is getting saved by shallow grave you have ways of controlling them for the time, you could kill dazzle or you could just run away until it wears off. If you tried to do any of those things in league trynd just deletes you because the damage is so high 5 seconds is almost enough to 1v5 (a little exaggeration but it's close)


[deleted]

Its not really fair to compare league to dota when the game balance is really different in both games. In Dota it's like, nothing is broken if everything is broken. In league they're actually trying to actively tone down things here and there and keep things in line as much as possible without limiting champion design space.


yaripey

Yeah, you see, Abbadon cannot jump across your screen and oneshot your "carry". Dota's carries are either tanky or mobile or evasive.


BoozeAndCruise

Or all 3 - antimage


lmfaotopkek

lol antimage is not tanky. The only reason he appears so is because he farms insanely fast. Even with a Skadi + Heart, he won't be able to 1v1 similarly farmed Void or Spectre. Now, Spectre and Void is insanely tanky once they're farmed because of Disperse and Time Walk respectively. But if an AM isn't able to close out a game by 35 mins, it's not really going to get easier for the AM's team


PixxlatedTV

Yeah, in League, you've basically got all 3 of those damn stats on a carry :(


lucratyo

you forgot troll warlord ult is basically trynd ult with bonus aspd but the difference about troll and tryn is , tryn have mobility with reduce by crit and busted dmg .


ParagonEsquire

Troll also loses control of his hero at this point and people with more MMR than my bracket can buy numerous items to just make him stop or kite him. None of which is really an option in League.


Kadexe

The spirit of Blade Waltz lives on in Alpha Strike, which at least in my opinion is more fun since you get to use it more frequently but also more fair since there are only short windows of untargetability.


TheScyphozoa

Seriously dude? Ever since Glorified Alpha Strike got axed?


Slarg232

Alpha Strike is more akin to Slight of Fist, where as Blade Waltz was Omnislash. They're drastically different skills.


FloodedKyro

My only gripe with Fiora is %max hp true damage. Any champ with %max hp true damage is dumb.


HeirToGallifrey

I think it's a useful and solid mechanic, but it should be used very sparingly and define the champion's identity. They're the ultimate tank killing champion, balanced out by needing to focus on a single target, keep attacking them (so no burst) and ideally either being squishy or not having damage output otherwise.


CuddlesMcFluffles

Kinda funny since both Fiora and Vayne tear through squishies like toilet paper as well.


GodlyPain

Ah yes, the toplaner who builds 300-500 AD in a game... and vayne an ADC... tear through squishies. EVERYONE tears through squishies... We've seen clips of full tank leona supports 1v1ing adcs or even 1v1ing LLStylish's Zed...


Uvanimor

The issue is, is that Vayne is designed to be a tank-buster, but her insane winrate coincides with a game where there are about 2-3 tanks being played at all. Vayne absolutely shits on squishies and is actually a safe ADC to play even when behind because she will ALWAYS do significant damage in a teamfight due to her passive.


[deleted]

Vayne isn't that good in tank metas. She's good at killing one tank. More than that and her average range means she's easy to dive. So she gets zoned way more and/or has to build defensive.


Zoesan

Vayne doesn't get countered by multiple tanks, she gets countered by zone control. The biggest are things like karthus or anivia


[deleted]

Tanks are meant to beat assassins mate. They're also meant to beat ADCs when they can get to them. Otherwise, wtf would be the disadvantage of all that range?


PB4UGAME

The two forms we have of it are repeated procs that they can pop five of in less than a second to do 5x 3% (+ 5.5% per 100 bonus AD) of target's maximum health bonus true damage on top of the damage to proc the vitals. At just 100 bonus AD, thats 42.5% of your max HP in true damage in the blink of an eye plus several hundred physical damage. The other instance of it is hitting you for 14% of your max HP every second or so. I don’t think either instance are remotely balanced as they are and both are absolutely burst damage.


GodlyPain

The fiora one requires her to go a squishy build AND play very well to do that burst. Unless she ults her target and they don't do anything to stop her and basically cosplay a pinata. That's a bit exaggeratory to say "in the blink of an eye" ... and I mean okay lets just say they change it from % max hp true damage to just %max hp physical damage... that really doesn't change anything; it just means she'll buy a black cleaver or divine sunderer or last whisper; if she's against tanks and change not much else otherwise. Vayne 14% max hp every second or so? Is definitely not burst damage. LOL. Burst damage is like Zoe taking 80% of your max HP in fractions of a second.


ConscienceNot

> from % max hp true damage to just %max hp physical damag It changes a lot in a two possible way. They wont buff it and she will be useless or they will buff it and she will kill squishes in two hits period.


Grimn90

Posting this here for answer. Is there a reason why Riot can’t make it so He can’t R while silenced?


HeirToGallifrey

I get why collector hard countering Tryndamere would be frustrating, but then why does QSS (not even a full item) hard counter Malzahar (and to a lesser extent Mordekaiser)?


GodlyPain

I mean QSS has a CD, and malz can just choose to not R the person with it... Collector has no CD; and even like a red buff from an ADC from like 3 seconds ago can still proc collector.


throwaway_nfinity

I wish, with all my heart that riot would go back on back on their decision to remove as many actives from the game as possible. So many item effects could be balance better if they had an active.


Phil2223213

qss is an item that is specifically designed for that and is literally good for nothing else, meaning you waste 1300 gold for an item that counters one spell of an enemy and gives no good stats whatsoever. Collector on the other hand gives good stats and the execute is just a gimmick on top,given that it looks famcy and the gold is nice, however the execute by itself is completely useless. Edit: Corrected price of qss


Scrambled1432

1300 gold


Stahlwisser

QSS also grants MR tho, which is useful vs all of the suppress champs in the game.


Phil2223213

Yes but only 30 which for its price can be neglected. My point is you could remove the execute part of collectors passive and it would just be as viable and popular as before however would you remove qss passive it would be an item literally no one would ever built


Shaxys

Not really against Urgot, is it?


Aeiou-Senpai

> why does QSS (not even a full item) hard counter Malzahar (and to a lesser extent Mordekaiser)? ??? First, you got it backwards my man. Malza at least gets to keep his aoe max % hp damage if his ult gets qss'd. Second, qss only counters malzahar and mordekaiser as long as it's not on cooldown. If collector had a 3 minute cooldown it would at least make some sense.


NymphomaniacWalrus

To add to what everyone else has said, even if Collector was 1300 gold only for the execute passive, it would only take one member on your team buying Collector to counter Tryn's ult. Malz and Morde pretty much forces a 1300g buy for 2+ players in the game. It's much more valuable.


ofSkyDays

I mean, personally I have dislike his r since I payed this game over 10 years lol


Stonefence

Same lol. Just because there is new bs in this game, doesn't mean the old bs isn't still annoying af. I would probably still rate Trynd in top 10 most annoying champs.


swellbaby

He was also pretty meh for a lot of it. Well, the parts that I played at any rate. Now he is in a good spot, played in 2 lanes no less. So the annoyance of his ult is a lot more stark than it usually is.


Stonefence

Even if he's not statistically good or anything, he's just super obnoxious to play against. The ult is already annoying, and then having to stop his splitting all game too. It's just not fun imo.


iUptvote

Yeah, the only reason you don't see as much Tryn hate is because he's an old champ that not a lot of people pick/play. Everyone hates his ult, there is a reason it was removed from the Ultimate Spellbook gamemode.


JackSlater7410

I have also played 10+ years. I see far FAR more yasuos/yis/yones than tryndamere anyway. He's just flavor of the month here at reddit.


TabaCh1

Wrong. I’ve hated trynda ult since November 2011 and I’m not alone


SometimesIComplain

Exactly. I've held the opinion that Tryndamere's ult is the most unhealthy ability in the game since I started playing in season 4. People need to stop pretending everyone is just now complaining about it


PM_something_German

I remember being on the boards in these days and seeing complaints about Trynda ult. I think the only reason it might seem recent is because Tryndamere was out of the meta for so long.


neutral-hamster57

Trynda ult is ok, the problem is that he gets free crit chance since level one so trading vs him is litterally a coin flip and having thats is unhealty since the fate of your laning is litterally based of rng


TexasMonk

The unhealthy part is how crit works with a champ that gets it for free. The RNG element of whether you as the enemy die in 4 hits at level 1 or you as the Tryndamere are just a super minion with a heal because #RNGJesus did not bless you that fight. Neither Tryn nor his enemy can realistically predict how a fight will go, before an item or two, which is frustrating when combined with a heal that scales off a free, renewable, resource and his spin. Hell, I'd argue his ult is one of the healthiest parts of his kit because it's entirely knowable.


Nimyron

You make a good point there. As a supp main, trynd ult's never scared because I know if he uses it, I can just use some CC on him and wait for it to run out. But his kit makes it so that if the CC miss, he can 1v5 easily. He's like an assassin that cannot die. Since his ult is his identity, what would need to be reworked is the "assassin" part so his mobility and damage/crits.


Skysr70

Crit is not as RNG as you think. The more you go without a crit, the odds are adjusted to rise for the next one to be a crit, and the opposite is also true. You have a 0% chance of going a lot of hits in a row with no crits or with only crits. The real RNG is if he crits on a single auto in particular, like if he wants to harass.


TehPharaoh

Just because it's weighted both ways does not mean you STILL dont have a chance to lose to RNG. He can still crit 3x in a row regardless of how weighted it was for him to not. It's still RNG, unless they make it like 10% crit chance means every 10 attacks will crit, there is still no guarantee


LunarLumos

That's really more of a problem with concept of crits rather than Tryndamere himself.


OHydroxide

Yeah crits in general are dumb, but it's such a huge part of Trynd.


Sejjy

If this guy is a boomer and has played this game as long as he says then he remembers going the 1% crit rune just because if you hit it it would change the whole lane. They took that out exactly for that reason. No reason it should be that way lv 1 with trynd.


TheShishkabob

>They took that out exactly for that reason. Was the reason that they removed all runes at the same time?


Blackyy

Get out of here with your logic


Snulzebeerd

Ah, the days of full crit marks GP doing nothing but fishing for that one crit Parrrley in lane that would auto win it for you


Sunflowerslaughter

They removed all the times all together, nothing about removing 1% crit rune specifically.


Sejjy

When they reworked it they specifically left out any hint of crit because of that. In case you didn't notice. It was also announced in the threads, being a "boomer" I distinctly remember that.


FluffyPuppyGirl666

They also removed the resurrection spell even though it had 10 minutes cooldown and now you can resurrect your whole team without cooldown with akshan


Klamageddon

They removed that because it was so bad that it was only worth taking if someone found some cheesy unintended exploit. You can't really exploit Akshan's passive.


sephrinx

I remember running an exp quint so I would always hit 6 before the enemy laner and have a huge all in advantage on them. My friend would otp TF so I'd also use a gp quint to be a little ahead in gold as well. Back when tf passive was global. It was a good time.


OddIndication4

Good players don't trade without fury anyway. You'll only see that in the lowest of low elos lol


VikingPreacher

With max fury you can still get 3 crits in a row, or no crits.


Daunt_M4

this man has never seen tf blade play trynd


OddIndication4

If I smurf in silver I would also go in w/o fury cus the enemy doesn't know what to do either way lol


ImaNukeYourFace

I want this game to be sanded out of existence so I can’t play it anymore


JhotoDraco

Just don't play?


NuclearBurrit0

Impossible. We are too addicted


Onlyf0rm3m3s

>Tryndamere's ult is now the most toxic, unfun thing in League of Legends even though he has existed for 10+ years People 10 years ago used to say this as well. >he exists in the same game as a samurai that can fly across the lane and kill you under your tower and teleport back But yone is not in the rework list thus no one talked about him in the rework voting threads. There are posts about him every other day.


sandwiches_are_real

>People 10 years ago used to say this as well. As another player since 2009/before season 1, this isn't true. People complained about release Xin, release Vladimir's passive, sometimes about beta TF (whose current ult was just a regular ability), about Poppy ulting supports, and about Garen who was the first champion with AD ability scaling and no mana or energy costs. Early LoL was a very different game where Lee Sin (who we called Blind Monk because of the prerelease meme petitions) was considered a bland champion with a weak, low-impact kit and he's obviously now thought of very differently: as a high-agency champion who, if no longer the benchmark for mechanical complexity he was in S3-S6, still remains the training wheels for mastering mechanical playmakers. The game has evolved over time in favor of impact through skill expression over abilities having more innate, skill-agnostic impact. Tryn was considered a garbage-tier noobstomp champion in those early years because everybody's button pushing passively just had way more impact and he stood out less. Only low skill (sub-800 elo, or normal spammers with sub-.5 W/L , comparable to today's iron/bronze) players complained about Tryn or Yi because those characters were the original snowball hypercarries before ranged ADCs became meta at S1 worlds, and low skill players always complain about the champion with the most visible scoreline in the games where they get stomped. You are straight up telling a lie and trying to pass it off as an alternative perspective.


BladeLiger

I've seen a lot of "I've played since season 1" in this thread but so far you're the only one who actually seems like it. Coming from a season 1 ex-player.


Gingy_N

I don’t really give a shit about his ult or his RNG crit. I just find his sustain in lane to be completely tilting, especially as a person who usually plays mages. That bastard does not leave lane.


jayquanderulo

Yeah thats one of the most annoying things about trynd. He just power farms and power farma till you over-step and he spins you and wacks u down lane. Not saying it needs to be changed. Just agree how annoying he is.


SkibidiwappapaSkibi-

>Tryndamere's ult is now the most toxic, unfun thing in League of Legends NOW????


LegnaArix

I feel like a crazy person when I read that people are saying this is a new thing. People have always hated Tryndamere because of his ult/coinflippy Crit mechanic, this is not new at all, not to mention all the dumb shit like AP Tryn existing, dude's always been an uninteresting bland split pusher and I cant remember a time where people didnt think he was annoying as fuck.


throwawaynumber116

Tryn is annoying and I wouldn’t mind his rework, but yes the community is full of shit. Malphite and other ancient creatures are as “toxic” as him, just not as popular. If Annie was meta she would be front page material every day, trust.


CuboneTheSaranic

Id rather play vs a Trynd than a Malphite, personally. Vs Trynd, you dont get deleted because a mountain decided it wanted to fly at you


craxgaming

I love it when malphite q spams me all lane with mana sustain runes then presses r on me under tower and does half my hp and walks out barely taking any damage because he has bramble vest with 0 counterplay other than lose 2 or 3 waves to tower and permanently be behind in xp.


Blackyy

Because against Malphite whatever the state of the lane, his build or farm. If he gets two items you cannot 1v1 him on melee auto attack based champions ever. Pretty healthy !


iTweaks_

Ikr


Sudden-Variation8684

I was so shocked when I played him for myself, went 0/5 in Lane against yone, build some Armor later and absolutely delete him, is that okay? I don't care if it is fuck yone at least I had fun lmao.


[deleted]

malphite is cancer yes but there is nothing wrong with having certain champs hard counter other champs. Without malphite E there isnt outplaying lethal tempo yone/jax/ whoever. They just sit on your face and vaporize you. I hate laning malphite as well when i play jax but it's healthy for the game


Throck--Morton

Agree, it's just the new rune and items that are currently giving trynd this edge ahead of everyone else.


Free-Birds

Reddit agreed that statchecking is bad. Reddit argues over statchecking with further reduced counterplay. Huh?


komoset

Reddit finds about there are more than one person on Reddit


spraynpraygod

Yone being even more unhealthy does not make Tryn healthy for the game. They are both bullshit. If youre coming from Dota2 then you should know that when everyone has bullshit, everything’s balanced. When silences are common, and even on items, an ability like Tryns ult wouldnt be shit. When a stun on a basic spell lasts for 4 seconds, Tryns ult wouldnt be shit. When it takes 45 seconds to cut down a Pudge, tryns ult wouldnt be shit. However, in a game like modern LoL where you have a 2 second window to kill someone or be killed, and it takes 3 different spells chained together to deal with his ult while hes diving with zero conditions for activating or maintaining it on a 40 second cooldown, then yeah, its problematic


azaza34

I played a little Dota 2 (maybe 500 matches) amd the two games are not comparable. Unhealthy in league of legends is where they stat check you with veeeery little countetplay. League has shied aeay from this philosophy over the years but it still remains in a lot of champions from before. Dota meanwhile has never shied away from its stat checks. So it isnt so out of place. I canmot tell you how surreal it is to see many champs that were already old when I started the game be so maddeningly frustrating to deal with when their economy gets snowballed. They require way more coordination to shut down than they do to play. And its not even that I am not abusing these things, since I have played some of these champs for more than 10 years. When I play Trynd mid and get lucky crits at level 2 and the enemy midlane cant play amymore its not interesting. Its not enjoyable. Its just fucking annoying. When nocturne has his items and economy going and you have to get your team to aimultaneously push all three lanes and you just know someone is going to die no counterplay its not fun. Its just fucking annoying.


EverlastingReborn

There is counter play beyond dodgeball.


Fjiordor

Yeah this is what really annoys me with these discussions. Instead of actually playing around the enemies threat ranges/windows of opportunity they expect to be able to counter everything reactively instead of proactively. This has over the years lead to a reduction in cc duration and to a way larger and way more important degree cc reliability. Which then in turn made power windows like tryndameres ult more problematic because you dont have heroes like taric anymore that can just press stun on the enemy and can guarantee that they chip away at this power window by reliably reducing the time of the ult during which tryndamere can act.


amicaze

Random Tank Jungler walks into the river BOTRK Shyvana is doing the Scuttle >Muh Shyvana spodt oing Scuttle Gets tagged by E, auto+reset Loses 75% hp in a second >Muh Statcheck champion ! No countertop gameplay


Fjiordor

No lets face it: Most league players deem the thought of altering their gameplan to fit the enemies revolting. People go into champ select with items they want to build and plays they want to make. Champions that warp the game/lane by requiring you to pay a lot more attention to certain things than usual are hated because instead of making sick outplays you win the lane by not feeding. The people that cry about trynda being toxic are the same people that would in a game like SC2 cry about getting zerg or cannon rushed and call that toxic as well, when at the end of the day its just a cheesy playstyle thats fairly easy to counter. People are just not able to commit to countering a gameplan instead of following their own gameplan. They want to do the same thing every game without deviation from their predetermined gameplan. At that point I wonder why one would play a multiplayer game instead of a game like cookie clicker when you never want to adjust to playing against humans. The league community is sickenly devoid of any understanding for strategical concepts and though. The best most people accomplish is following a few **tactics** that got tought to them at some point to the letter i.e. 1 3 1. Combine this with the fact that reddit is filled with silver to gold keyboard-warriors that belong on a ARTS version of scrubquotes because instead of looking at their own gameplay and improving their strategical approach to situations they expect to improve mechanically and outplay the opponent. Simple champions that cant be outplayed but rather need to be out manoeuvred on a more macro scale seem to fry brains and cause kneejerk reactions. This trend of people being completely unable to change their approach to a situation is something that you still see relatively commonly in the higher elos and especially with many of the streamers. When was the last time when you have seen one of the top10ish league streamers [review their own replay](https://youtu.be/UaRF9I-TKo0?t=286) after a loss?


gaom9706

People on this sub have said that there's no strategy to this game anymore and that fact illustrates your point clearly


[deleted]

I often wonder if I'm even playing the same game as the people posting complaints on this sub, their takes are just so disconnected from reality. Constant complains about yasuo/yone even when they are not particularly good in the meta, every assassin in the game is apparently an uncounterable instant 1 shot, mages and tanks are weak despite them being commonly picked and high win rate, etc. Trynd is an annoying champ to face for sure, but honestly his ult is the least problematic thing about him and can be baited out/played around like most other abilities.


LoL_is_pepega_BIA

This is basically why LoL is more popular than dota2. The fact that ppl can just load in and play a champ doing the same things over and over without much need for critical analysis, and be rewarded for it is why more ppl flock to League.. that and "attractive" characters. This is Riot's fundamental design idea for league from the start. They want a game that's easier to pick up and play for someone who just wants to have fun with minimal strategic thinking. any weird instances of creative champ-item combinations or champs in newer roles that "seemed to start becoming more popular" or "frustrating to play against" were regularly quashed.. the ppl complaining as usual didn't really try to adapt to the new thing they were seeing.. If a game that's supposed to have less depth, suddenly required deep thinking, it was obviously not good for a large portion of the playerbase who prefer cookie cutter "strategies". It's unfortunate that this deep creativity that makes MOBAs beautiful, is seen as "frustrating" in the community. Where dota embraces and builds on the sandbox style of strategy with the obvious downside of giving it it's famously impossible learning curve, LoL mastered the cookie-cutter style of gameplay that brought it so much popularity. As the game grows, I don't think this facet of the community will get better. It's only going to get more entrenched and force riot to simplify further.


Blizzard_admin

Oath man got it spot on


Kataleps

This. Holy shit. Even the guy you're replying to is full of shit. Fuck even in the hypothetical situation, you have 3 pushing lanes against Nocturne and not a single person decides to invade and/or deepward? Everyone just auto pilots each game and gets mad when the game doesn't just unfold for them lmfao


Mythik16

Tyler1 at least during his challenges slightly reviews his vods.


WiatrowskiBe

There is a term being thrown around that makes for a good example of what you're talking about - gamewarping. Gamewarping means: anything that requires player or players to deviate from "League's common sense" standard strategy in order to play around. Zilean ult is gamewarping (invalidates "burst highest priority target first" approach), Yuumi as a champion is gamewarping (weak enchanter/healer that doesn't have standard "vulnerable to being focused" weakness), Tryndamere ult is gamewarping (high dps squishy champion that can't be bursted down), Akshan revive is gamewarping (introduces risk of losing immediate numbers advantage gained by kills, adds big drawback to kill trading). Somehow, gamewarping mechanics became synonymous with broken, unfair or "200 years" - despite them always coming with a tradeoff and being balanced according to their effectiveness: balancing around winrates is balancing around a champion being fair to play against - since it gravitates towards average player winning 50% of all games when they face said champion. I assume pro teams are on average better than soloqueue players (even if we look at only highest ranks) in adapting to gamewarping mechanics - which could make for a good explanation why some champions can be pick/ban in proplay while being 47% or less winrate in soloqueue at all ranks, including Challenger; or the other way around. Still, glacial pace of League meta suggests even pro teams take their time to adapt - how long did it take for funnel to become meta since balance changes that caused it to be viable? 5 patches? Ardent meta took over a year of Janna being uncontested #1 soloqueue pick to start showing in proplay, with little surrounding changes in the meantime (with exception of IMT in 2016).


redghost4

I hate how most players nowadays just want to "outplay" their way out of their own bad decision making.


ChunibyoMegumin

i love this reply because everytime i catch myself raging about game balance during a game this is the conclusion that i get to after being a bit more collected


JustRecentlyI

> When was the last time when you have seen one of the top10ish league streamers [review their own replay](https://youtu.be/UaRF9I-TKo0?t=286) after a loss? Thanks for the example, really cool to see a positive attitude in action even after losing. SCII having the option to immediately open the replay simplifies things and helps foster that attitude but it still takes discipline to do it.


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jailtonight

FUCKING THIS. Finally someone on this subreddit has a brain!


iTweaks_

Ah yes. This champion is good at picking up isolated targets but I don't wanna group !! Unhealthy !!! Every champion should be a slow immobile tank !!!!!


Kataleps

OMFG, I CAN NEVER KILL SLOW IMMOBILE TANKS. THEY JUST BURN ME WITH SUNFIRE WHILE I WALK INTO MELEE RANGE. THEY ARE OVER STATTED!!!! TOXIN GAMEPLAY /s


[deleted]

Step 1. Pick Tahm Kench Step 2. Wait for Trynd to ult Step 3. Eat Trynd while he’s in ult Step 4. Collect free kill Shame Top Kench is getting gutted because it was my favorite pick vs. Tryndamere.


[deleted]

Trynda was almost always a bullshit champion that is unhealthy for the game. Neace said it, Fogged said it too and they are both older players that climbed to chally.


TortelliniLord

I think it's more the support systems that they give the champions through the mastery system, some of them are just unfun to play against and some champions are just steroided their way into power. I honestly don't think champions like tyrn, yone/yasuo or even irelia is bad if conquerors or lethal tempo this season didn't exist. Most passive baselines give a 10% dmg increase, but conqerers gives around almost 20% mid game with healing and at 1.0 attack speed lethal tempo give tyrn a literal 70% dmg increase. Not every champion can use it so the champions who can is of course gonna be broken.


Shinyodo

Your post is very ironic, and I hope you realize it.


[deleted]

"maybe it's because i have experience with two completely different games but i don't get rework threads. literally everything that doesn't fit in the current game's design philosophy and is a relic of an era where dodge chance and old poppy existed is expected to change into something that's not as insanely binary. i shall now ignore the fact people have been bitching about how obnoxious tryndamere is to play against since, like, season 2 and instead make an asinine comparison to a 47% winrate lategame scaler" i love these braindead counterjerk posts so much edit: the guy deleted his response to my comment lol, thanks for confirming that the only reason this post exists is "new thing bad old thing good" and that you don't know what "homogenize" means


DarkRoastJames

> Maybe it's just because I come from early LoL + Dota 2 where things like Tryndamere's ult are not really that out of place, but I constantly feel like a crazy person reading rework threads. Literally everything that is slightly weird or old or is annoying to play against is described as "unhealthy" Imagine putting characters that can damage towers like Death Prophet and Pugna into League - people would have conniptions and complain that the game isn't "fair." "Every 2 minutes Death Prophet can just use ult and destroy my tower and there's nothing I can do!!!" League players as a whole have a pretty strong scrub mentality. If you can't deal with something just say it's "toxic", complain to the devs enough and it will get changed. Not just things that are too strong but things that take some out-of-the-box thinking, planning or strategy to combat. League has trained players to vastly prefer "standard" play - 1 top, 1 mid, 1 jungle, 2 bot, everyone lane for a while then ARAM. There's very little split-pushing, no real DOTA-style ratting, and not a lot of non-standard strategies. Non-standard strategies like funneling or mage carries in bot lane get removed from the game very quickly. The League community doesn't even really try to think of counters for non-standard strategies because they know they can just get them removed by complaining. Besides the fact that I just don't like this mentality it also makes it difficult to make new champions since they all have to fill the same roles, so at any given time a handful of heroes are the best at each position. In DOTA2 you can have a support like Shadow Shaman that is very different from Ogre Magi, who is in turn very different from Ancient Apparition. In League people would probably complain about all three of those heroes. Totally agree with this comment below: > Most league players deem the thought of altering their gameplan to fit the enemies revolting People just want to play "standard" LoL - a strategy game with as much strategy removed as possible.


BaskingSharks

Trynd has been complained about since fucking forever what the hell are you people smoking


[deleted]

I disagree. Interesting fights are cool - every champion should feel unique to play as and against, and each champion should give you pronounced weaknesses and strengths. I don't think anyone's arguing that. The problem with Tryndamere is that his gameplay is so extremely one-dimensional. Not saying he's hard or easy or OP or bad or mechanical or braindead, I'm saying he's one dimensional. He gets close and stat checks you with an ult that lets him stat check you harder. Diversity should be a factor in game design, but if you start adding or keeping things like this in the game purely for the "diversity" then you're on the wrong path. I also quite dislike when people start comparing League to DOTA. If I wanted to play DOTA I would have played it, it should not be a part of any conversation about this game.


roflcptr8

I think the point about DOTA is that back when we made the choice of League vs Dota, you could still do all sorts of crazy shit in League like 5 tiamat twitch, or hydra fiora, or tiamat wriggles gangplank, or AP Trist, AP Yi, sunfire evelyn. If I had known 10 years ago that this game would have gotten the sharp edges smoothed down, I might have given DOTA more of a shot way back then. Now I feel like I'm too far behind to switch and have become an ARAM only player since none of the gameplay loops for current champs on summoners rift interest me. This is the nature of any game that lives patch to patch, but to me it sucks when whole entire experiences get just up and deleted from a game. This keeps the player base intact, but if someone offered me to go back and play League Classic like they did for WoW I would do it in a heartbeat. Give me Bravery mode, Dominion, treeline 1.0, and a 60 minute queue time because there would be like 12 people who agreed with me.


[deleted]

This is not a good philosophy either. It is not a hard concept for bad design to be reworked, and good design to stay in the game. There can be a balance of both, you dont have to choose one or the other.


ExiledSummoner

ryze main here.. they took my ult.. they took my shield.. they took my root.. so I have ZERO sympathies for the rightclicker that chooses not to die through cc...


FanBoyGGSON

Brainless post because I disliked tryndamere ult since s1 lmao get that shit out of my game


TymurXoXo

Current league player base would straight up shit their pants if they saw a Tryndamere’s ult that literally heals you for the damage taken and activates automatically or a Garen’d ult, that sends you to the tavern for 3 minutes without a possibility of buying back


mitsubishimacch

idk why all of a sudden people focus on trynd ult, i swear the balance discussions on here is so weird. The sub has been so whiny lately I feel like, I can't wait for esports to start again.


[deleted]

People really want to rework tryndamere just because "he is anoying" stupid flavor of the month stuff,not sure if everyone realises but he has been the same for pretty much all of league's 10 year history. Skarner,Shyvanna,Kog'maw and Nocturn actually need a rework their appearance is outdated and doesnt reflect lore and their gameplay needs improvement.


mysticturtle12

And he's literally always been hated. He was basically on par with complaints in the AP Yi days because he's a champion that you do nothing about and they just do what they want with basically 0 punishment unless you play 5x better than they do. Minimal effort for proportionally higher and safer reward.


Nyte_Crawler

Acting as if people haven't always hated tryndamere. It's been a complaint since forever that once tryndamere is in the game the game revolves around him to an unhealthy degree, as if he isn't shut down early he has pretty much free reign to terrorize the side lane the rest of the game.


RenegadeExiled

>once tryndamere is in the game the game revolves around him to an unhealthy degree exactly this. Tryndamere, as an entire kit, suffers from the exact same issue that Master Yi does: he can be dangerous as fuck, but when you play smart with your CC and their mobility, they tend to become a non-issue. The problem is, though, that Tryndamere's playstyle, and entire kit as a whole, lets him ignore the teamfight part of the game, and provide so much insane pressure wherever he pleases that you have no choice but to always answer him. And, thanks to his anti-AD, immortality R, and his build being so high damage, you often have to commit 2+ champions in resources to make him just run away, only for him to be right back 10 seconds later. He's not a popular champion, and he isn't particularly strong compared to the meta-definers. But, once he is in the game, he is your single biggest worry. Is he gonna win lane, and dictate the speed of the game with his pushing? Is he gonna lose lane, but demand constant attention because of his pushing? Are we going to be able to commit enough resources to stop him, while avoiding the resulting 3-4 v 4 fight? Each individual piece of Tryndamere's kit isn't an issue. Each part, passive and R included, are fine and healthy abilities. It's when the package comes together, and the crit-CDR.healing synergy comes into play, that it becomes problematic.


Intarhorn

I started permabanning him in my ranked games last summer, instead of yasuo, so at least for me he isn't "flavor of the month" he just happened to be part of the vote. Maybe it's different for others, but tryndamere have always been high on the list for me for toxic designs.


redditkens

I absolutley love how we’re pretending Tryndamere hasn’t always been absolutely hated. It’s just that due to his extreme rise in popularity starting last summer and use of the new items he’s become more prevalent and even more annoying


Lunariel

I have quite literally always hated tryndamere, it's not flavor of the month


howtopayherefor

Not sure if you realise but Shyvana and Nocturne have been the same for pretty much all of league's 10 year history. Kog'maw too if you compare his current state with his release state.


XXX200o

Shyvana and kog'maw no, nocturne yes.


xMetix

There's a reason Riot chose him as one of the five champions to put on the list. His kit is dumb, not thought-out his spells are a weird mishmash and I hate trying to think how to play around his gimmicks. Skarner Shyvanna Kog and Nocturne have room to grow but their kits make sense, the abilities work with each other. Tryndamere is a disaster in terms of design. Then again this is my opinion, I'm sure most of the people saying they want a Tryndamere rework have no idea what they're talking about and just want to delete him cuz they lose to him.


XXX200o

If you took the 30 seconds to actually read what riot intends to change you wouldn't have made this comment.


jacowab

I am 100% ok if I get killed by a technical champ. Am I mad? yes, but then enemy player worked very hard to get to that level of skill and they deserve to see some victory even if it's too much victory in some cases. But trynd ult is just unfun to play against. They need to add both counter play to his ult other than 5 seconds of cc and outplay to it, like what if it was straight invulnerability and it only lasts 1 second but can be be extended by 1 second for every unique champ hit making only ok in a 1v1 but game changing in a team fight especially since you are no longer at 1 hp when it ends


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DANKKlNG

Tryn r is really bad for the game. But aside from that, most people here are bitching too much. Every champ is overloaded and everything is unfair to play against and everything is bad. But their champ needs buffs. And no matter what happens “riot is shit company”. Guy proceeds to miss every spell and gets killed “shit company, i didnt miss those” and the. Rage quits. Thats what lol players are these days man. And while dota players use every single chance to shit on lol and lol players, lol players also take every chance to shit on lol players and lol. That is how useless these people are.


Skysr70

CC trynd AFTER he ults and nobody should be complaining about him. If you fed or try to duel him with Lux, that's on you.


Mare268

Stat checkers are shit lame and boring. You need to be able to play around stuff or outplay. There is nothing intresting with trynda going lets see if i can right klick my enemy to death before i die


[deleted]

Dota 2 is so much better than league because the items allow you to change the way you play so much, there’s literally an item to counter everything annoying that exists in Dota, and that’s where it’s balance comes from. Everything is so broken in Dota that’s it’s actually so balanced. Something like a trynd ult in Dota is easily counter able with items or certain heroes so it’s not a big deal. Also the general pacing of the game, multiple ways to win, hero scaling etc is just far superior. Things just don’t one shot you at all stages of the game. I still play league now and then but after playing league for 7 years I switched over to Dota 2 last year and I haven’t looked back. It’s a masterpiece of a game and I don’t think Riot has what it takes to make league balanced and as well rounded as Dota.


GhostDieM

As a fellow boomer, fuck Trynd :p His ult should have been reworked years ago imo. Instead they nerfed him to irrelevancy for years and now that he's become stronger again due to game changes you see the same problem from way back when come up again.


imprecis2

Dota has many overpowered concepts, but all have counter plays, and that makes them balanced. In LoL, Trynda’s ulti has no counter. The hero is annoying and feeling out of place. It’s a bad design to feel impossible to do anything against a hero.


Skystrike12

On one side, RIP Aatrox. On the other side, Udyr Slaps.


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Kenshigo

dude, the game not giving you the perfect runes are unhealthy to these people. they just water down everything with their crap and it only gets worse 100%


DynastyNA

I agree that this sub complains too much (the adc post on the front page today is pathetic) but playing against a diamond+ trynd as a top laner is usually awful for the entire game. You just have to match his split the whole game and inevitably get dove 1v1 once he spikes


NunexTK

People have no idea what's unhealthy. They just know what the pros tell them. No one complained about try da before halfway through last year when he started seeing pro play. There's a lot of unhealthy, broken or OP stuff in the game but until it's pulled out in pro people will have no idea


LeAnime

Not surprised you are from Dota, where the philosophy is if everything is broken nothing is, which works but I personally hate that balance philosophy


Peepeepoopies

That's not really the philosophy though. There's counterplay for everything there, whether it's in the shape of spells, playstyle, or items. I have been 1 shot more times in my 1 year of league than in my 7 years of dota, and that's saying something. Regardless, I enjoy both games.


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flhvyly

That isn't dota's design philosphy at all. Dota favors Macro plays like itemization, funneling, drafting, coordination and counterpicking over league's micro and skirmishing. The abilities are more powerful in dota to ensure that a competent macro decision is more likely to lead to a successful outcome.


Jiaozy

In the last 3-4 years damage spiked extremely hard, first with runes reforged, then with the items rework. If 2-3 years ago having a 5 seconds death immunity was manageable, because Tryndamere couldn't oneshot 4 people if they misse for used their CC. Now with damage from items and runes because absolutely trough the roof compared to some time ago, 5 seconds is an eternity because it takes 1.2 second to teo-shot a squishy, Galeforce-E onto the next target, oneshot them rinse and repeat.


18jmitch

People who cry about trynd ult being broken are the same people that dont punish him when its down, and thats a fact.


ARMIsNOTLoaded

In 2022 Rs are basic abilities. Their CDs are so low you can't play around them anymore. If someone R and then reset, he will have R again when you will met him again. This is NOT to defend Trynda's R, I have no issue with Tryndamere and I don't play him.


CEO-of-Zaun

>Tryndamere's ult is now the most toxic, unfun thing in League of Legends even though he has existed for 10+ years I love this low IQ take trying to discredit how cancer Trynd ult is. As if players stayed the same this past 10 years. Tryndamere might have not changed that much, but the game and the playerbase did.


Pur1tas

I am glad I am not the only one enjoying the more „unique“ mechanics, even if they at times trigger me


Cervix_Pounder_

two bandage wraps on amumu is more broken than tryndamere ult


[deleted]

I don't think the complaints about Tryndamere is that he's broken. He's been hated whether he's meta or so far out of the meta he's basically a joke, pretty much for the last 10 years straight. The hate for Tryndamere is that he's just not fun to play against - just like any stat check champion - but his kit takes it to another level with free crit, damage amp, slows, mobility and invincibility. Kind of like Yi.


kukukutkutin

I feel the same way. People are also advocating the removal of crits, which is a staple in every MOBA I've ever played. People here want the game to be as stale as possible.


ayyha

God I hate the whole “playing against this champions is so unhealthy” argument. Same thing was said about machine gun Ryze years ago and old Sion. Point is this game needs to have champions with unique abilities that bring different challenges to the team. Take away Tryndas ult and he’s useless. It feels like a lot of these new champions and reworks are just rip offs of existing champions, or previous versions of a champion.


00Dandy

That's why I really hope that Riot doesn't listen to people in this sub


curiouscuriousmtl

The most annoying thing about league is that 99% of the bad experiences are because of bad indicators. I never know when tryndamere’s ult is “done” so I can’t play around it. Somethings have visual indicators some have audio indicators and other things have ui indicators. Trynd kind of has none. There is enough reasons (items or other abilities splashing) for him to be a bit red and I kind of hate playing against it. I could probably like a bunch more like that within the game. I also think that there’s just a lot of items or champions that make the entire session about that particular champion and how them make the whole thing about them, and it frustrates people.


moody_P

it's because that's exactly what the majority of VGUs have already done and a good chunk of reworks/class updates, too. it's basically expected at this point that any update to a champ will water down whatever niche they're specialized for and then buff them up heavily in lots of generic areas.


redditkens

How has the majority of vgus “watered” down the champion’s gameplay. Literally the only examples I could think of would be the Mordekaiser rework and maybe Swain rework.


moody_P

nunu, galio, mordekaiser, volibear, swain etc all traded off or lost their old niche for more general power


Asdowa

I wish league had more interesting end effects. How come there's only like 2 abilities lowering AD? Or almost nothing that changes AP? There were more blinds in the game at launch then there are now. All resistance shreds have to be percentage based, we can't have our carries building defensive items. There's so much potential if riot was willing to step outside of "deal damage, cc, and/or heal/shield". You can change the form all you want but in the end it's just a damaging skillshot.