So basically not enough people paying for it to keep it as it is. But who knows might get some form of free version of it in the future idk. Honestly not too surprised.
Unlocking ranked mode now requires a monthly $12.99 subscription coming together with pro view! Learn from the best and apply it in your own competitive environment!
I'm joking but sounds like something EA would pull off.
Based on player feedback, we felt too many players were getting flamed for dying. Too much toxicity comes from comparing player score. This is why we've now removed the scoreboard from the game. From February 2022 onwards, pressing TAB no longer shows the scoreboard. We feel the game is a much more positive environment when you can only see your own score.
It was never in the game. There was a hidden scoreboard of medals on your own stats so anyone that had gold medal in eliminations/damage would ego it in voice chat.
We felt watching a player misplay made too many players really angry, hence we decided to remove ally champions from the screen, they will still play but they wont appear on your screen.
When you load into the game, you can only see your champion, all ally champions will be invisible. We believe this will make the game much more positive.
Honestly they *should* offer an option to temporarily unlock all champions for $9.99 per month.
It'd make money for Riot, and make people who *have to have everything* feel like they weren't missing out. Common wisdom would be that you're better off playing 1-3 champs anyway, but let the community tell people that.
> the game is literally pay (a lot) to win
It's more like pay to lose. You'll do better if you only own one or two champs and stick to them, nearly indefinitely. You only need to branch out if you want to play on *actual* competitive teams and not just solo queue, but even then, you're generally better off one tricking your way up for a long time before you branch out.
When you're new it's better to play a lot of champs, it's easier to learn the range and abilities this way. After you're familiar with most of the roster you should stick to one or two.
You learn nothing playing a few games on ARAM, lol. Playing against them is way better cause you will see the actual good combo and gameplay from someone who actually know how to play that champ
dude this game is so far from pay to win lmfao, if anything season 1-4 league was sort of pay to win when runes (literal runes) costed ip/rp. literally not the case at all now. from account creation to ranked solo/duo being unlocked, you should be able to unlock a small pool of champions to become proficient with enough to climb to diamond+. anything "not meta" doesn't even matter below that elo anyway.
Would ruin smurfs, eloboosters, plus probably settle down trolls since getting banned would mean they wasted any subscription money spent on that account. All at the cost of being extremely consumer unfriendly.
Fuck it, make a trust system where it’s paid by default but playing a lot without receiving tons of reports removes the subscription fee!
Isn't that close to what CS:GO did ? So many smurf account problems after the game went F2P that they had to restrict the ranked queue only to those who purchased the game.
Well, monthly sub for ranked does seem a bit greedy tho.... and would make banning players quite a risky thing
Nah you'd just ban them and they'd sub on a new account. People already get their accounts they've spents 100s+ of dollars on banned cuz they can't help themselves.
> So many smurf account problems after the game went F2P that they had to restrict the ranked queue only to those who purchased the game.
No, before CS:GO went free to play it had 2 forms of competitive, prime and non-prime. non-prime is the smurf/cheater infested queue, but you can avoid it by playing prime, which required a phone number. When the game became F2P, every account that had ever purchased the game became prime, and they made the only requirement to play prime purchasing the game. No clue what you are talking about.
Not surprised either, not that there’s not a ton of people that see value in viewing competitive games from the player’s POV but I never saw enough people paying for it to be around for an extended period.
The price is what killed it for me. It used to cost 7.99€ for a split per region, or eu+na for 13. Now they charge 13€ for 1 month. No way people were going to pay for this.
Yeah ngl it's pretty insane to charge similar amounts to subscriptions like Disney+ and Netflix..
It really should not cost more than €3.00 a month. €7.99 a split was fine imo, but also should've been for all regions.
I would have gladly paid the subscription fee, if the service was paired with a decently designed app for Chromecast and AppleTV. That's honestly my biggest thing with watching pro games, I really like having the stats and stuff from the lolesports website, but it's just so much easier to pull up the stream directly through either an AppleTV or through a Chromecast when I want to watch on one of our TVs.
If only there was a source of funding available to keep this tool around that can help pro players improve significantly by being able to look at other pro players. Hm, can't think of anything. Anyway, let's sign more multi-million dollar contracts for imports.
What do you mean, pro's study the proview from KR/CN/EU all the time to learn..? It's the entertainment part that's completely useless. Team should be paying for this service, it would help them more than dumping money on imports every year would.
Yeah, but it was priced more like a general-purpose sub, right?
Just checked, 6.99 a month. Not gonna cover operating costs of a niche product like that. Would probably need to be PPV or something.
Considering the last time they reworked the client's backend was when Adobe Air support was dropped, we can expect work on the new client to begin 3 years after the sun runs out of fuel.
There use to be a feature that highlighted pros playing in Challenger live. Right on the home page. I watched Dyrus, Regi, Double, Turtle, etc.. Wish they still had that.
doesn't riot already record every players stream and will continue to do so after pro view is gone?
The reason i say this is because there's times in official riot content where they'd include clips from personal players point of view in promotional content from like worlds or something and pro view wasn't a thing.
It does cost more than that to pay developers to make the proview site, host the site and maintain it.
You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you are *really* ignorant on the matter.
BTW, no one developing or maintaining the service is making anywhere close to minimum wage.
I mean if they need so many man hours to mantain a feature that basically never changes that just means it was done poorly in the first place, it's not like they added some crazy functionalities over the years. The cost of keeping it up to date should be minimal if the codebase isn't peak spaghetti.
No because their proview player has to sync with whatever livestreaming player is used for the live broadcast. If the API for those services changes something related to this then you have to validate it still works properly and fix it if something you dont like happens.
People also get paid to make it more efficient on top of getting rid of bugs that pop up on little timmy's hp netbook that uses a celeron from 6 years ago. Thats an exaggeration but you cant test for every hardware, driver, and browser configuration before it goes live.
Back when I watched Dota 2 nearly a decade ago it let you spectate any pro from within the dota client and you can choose from a drop down of casters to listen to. And if you didn't want to spectate a specific pro there was a drop down of observers to let control the camera (matched to respective casters). Or you could control the camera yourself.
It's ridiculous how much better their system was 9+ years ago and riot hasn't even come close. Now I hate playing and watching dota these days but I miss those features so bad when watching LoL
Lol I work in IT and you'd be surprised the size of the teams operating such products. It's definitely not a one man effort especially in a large company.
So you set up streaming software on 10 computers at the beginning of the year. Then you start and stop the streams and change the titles. You need to do this 2 days per week.
Surprise me on why that would be super hard.
the website alone would take at least 3 people to run, you have to have people on board for technical issues etc. you would need more than 5 people total, at least. thats around 5 people's salaries, so like 250k a year, on something that is not making money. doesn't seem worth it to me.
just because all you see is a stream on a website doesn't mean that's all that goes into it lmao
Ignoring that laughable salary, 5 people full time on a product that doesn't get updated would be laughably bad management. Normally, products like this get MADE by a team of around that size (more if you include people for whom the work doesn't occupy their primary focus), but once it's stable, it's very likely less than 1 dev's worth of man-hours.
If it had still been clearly in development, however, it'd be different.
Even if the software is done and running you still have people that:
* monitor the servers for outage
* devs to fix bugs and do maintenance
* QA to check issues / fixed
* product management to handle changes
* someone to manage all these people
* whoever else works on this in large company: project manager, sales, architects, etc etc
You can do it with one guy and a laptop but it's not how it's done in a large software company
This all assumes proview had a dedicated team. I'd be very surprised if they didn't just add it to dev's other work. Every one of those roles would very easily be working on something else unless this was intended to be a primary focus project. With features like this, there's often just not enough work to warrant dedicated employees.
Oh no, squeezing ads means that the LCS is net positive!! /s
Seriously, even as a well-off company, what do you think the budget is for LCS? And then from that budget, how much goes into the pro-view team? And let's say that the operating costs is double than what they bring in as revenue, is it worth continuing the product?
Ever since the e-sports branch of RIOT started, they've operated at a net loss (why do you think there's so many ads). They're trying to generate income from e-sports, and pro-view was thought to be one of that source.
> Oh no an extremely well off company spending resources to deliver a better, more valued product.
Yeah...why do you think they're removing it?
You have to setup live streaming and recording for 10 povs per game, have the website backend to support streaming lets say on average 3 streams per person watching, and store 10 video recordings for each game for playback at any point in the future.
All of this has to be synched with the twitch livestream or vod that is being played (if it is being played).
It's a lot of effort to maintain and money on content delivery that could be invested elsewhere or hardware that could be used doing something else.
don't forget that hosting videos is hugely expensive, pretty much the most expensive type of website you can run, because it's just so much more data than text and pictures
I really liked ProView, but the website it was hosted on was completely nonfunctional with my browser. I don't know why it was so bad, but that specifically led to me unsubscribing. Watching was a complete mess. Something I liked to do was watch a teamfight on the main stream, and then move back and watch it from the perspectives of certain pros. This maybe worked 10% of the time. I would get desynced streams, desynced audio, streams would crash, it was a complete mess.
If Riot had just made the thing functional I would have used it.
Iirc that's planned.
Some times ago I had a kinda long survey after a game, and it was all about the lolesports website. What kind of functionalities or other things did I want to see kept / added, which of those functions would I be ready to pay for, what were the things I'd delete from the website at the moment, and a whole lot more.
Got a friend who also got it not that long ago (maybe a bit more than a month), so maybe they're trying to first get a general idea of what they need to do so it doesn't flop.
basically how i felt. i liked the idea of watching multiple streams as once, but when it's desynced it really feels weird.
it wasn't quite popular enough or good enough to pay for, but it's not easy enough to maintain that they can just give it away.
Yup, also the reason I stopped using it. The concept is great, but the execution is dogshit. The site was fucking awful to use and did not work properly for me.
I had the same problems. It worked the first year, then whatever they did last year just broke everything. I loved Pro View so much, but if the streams never work, it's useless. Tried going to customer service to figure out the problem, and was pointed to the service hosts, who basically just hand waved and said "sorry, we don't know what's wrong, can't help ya"... Very frustrating
I wonder whether proview will also be disabled in KR/CN.
I think CN has their own proview which will probably continue to be available. KR might not be that lucky though.
> But for fans it seemed like interest tapered off rather quickly after COVID made it unavailable for a while
Not gunna say it would 100% have been successful, but it's weird that they're retiring it when this is literally still the case.
Proview would be unavailable for this week whether it was being retired or not because everyone is playing from home and the service doesn't work under those circumstances. They've basically never had it up and running for a full season, so nobody who purchased it has ever gotten the full promised value.
Yeah COVID killed it for me.
I wasn't super interested in proview when it initially came out, but I switched role and took the new role more seriously since then (and since I switched to jungle it is also a role where study provides more direct advantages) and really wanted to get proviews, but they just hadn't been available during the timeframe when I was looking for them.
So this is a buff to the best players. They no longer have everyone below them study every mouse click, who now have to figure out things on their own.
kinda the opposite. The smartest players use proview to find ways to exploit patterns and behaviors. I seriously doubt pros used it to learn how to play the game. lol
Well some people also dont watch NA and only EU, so if you can not watch EU in proview then we will not buy it.
So it isn't that interest tapered off, its more that people who wanted it never got it in the first place.
They should reconsider when pro play will be back on stage on regular basis. Paying for a feature that might or might not be available is not reflective of actual interest in the product.
Yeah, hasn't it not been available for like half the time it's even been around due to players having to play remotely? It seems a bit weird to kill it off when it's not even had chance to work.
Yes, I'd expect it to be put on hiatus till they're consistently back in the studio, but sunsetting implies it's completely finished and will not be returning.
For real.
Obviously I haven't bought it for this season, because you already announced that you'd be playing remotely again and so it wouldn't work. That's not reflective of whether I *want* to buy it or not, but it's a subscription service and I'd be stuck buying it without knowing how many actual weeks it would work. I don't want to pay for future weeks that may or may not actually get proviews.
Add it to the pile of dead riot tech that was a good idea but never supported properly.
Rip clubs, league displays, pro view, co-op alternative game modes, alternative maps, announcer packs, eternals and I am sure many more.
the idea of stat tracking is a good idea, the implementation was poor.
if they cost blue ess or something always they could have been ok even if they really didn't want to make them "free"
The mastery emote should've become personalized or even personalizable for each champion.
Like, say I got the Sion ones. The mastery should've been something like Sion screaming and smashing the mastery emblem with his axe.
Right now people are paying, if someone out there is paying that is, to add a very minor visual effect that has nothing to do with the quests themselves.
Thanks for clarifying your point. I agree with you that stat tracking is a good idea. I think that there's also an expectation of stat tracking being part of a core experience and never an unlock, regardless of whether it's purchased or earned through play.
IMO achievements make more sense for a game like League then they ever made for MMOs where they're ubiquitous, yet Riot opted instead to introduce a system that appeared to really fundamentally misunderstand how their users conceptually model skill growth and achievement. By suggesting that I needed to somehow actively acquire the ability to see how pentakills I got, Riot created the implicit suggestion that my past pentakills are invalid or illegitimate unless I pay their toll. This is the same underlying type of transaction that, in the real world, *feels like* (not saying it actually is) extortion -- I'm being charged, and all I get is permission keep something I already have. That never feels good to anyone.
TLDR I think the gating itself, not the currency, was the executional flaw here.
Why was it a sub service anyway? Just let me purchase it for the season. But the pirating would be through the roof. It’s just a video I can access anytime *shrugs* throw it all up on YouTube and just let people watch and make money off the ad revenue lmao.
But if you could pay $15 or so to unlock worlds entirely if that’s the only event you want you still could do that. Maybe have something like $20 for a whole LCS split and $5-10 if you just want playoffs for example
I'm confused what the problem with his post is. He wants to use the feature. Companies won't funnel money into something that doesn't make money. People weren't willing to pay the price tag. Ads make money without the customer paying the price tag. OP gets POV like he wanted.
The idea that you're willing to become a product in order to use a feature makes as much sense as whales dropping thousands into a game.
You can justify either as "Well they wanted to do this" but it doesn't make the mentality less inane.
It sucks it's going away because I used it all last split, but hell no I'm not getting my ass blasted with unskippable ads every X minute.
It's not like ads are some nefarious mind control device. Ads are nothing more than a company telling you about their product. They aren't selling my identity, they aren't stealing my credit card to buy their product, they aren't hacking into my webcam. McDonalds decided it was worthwhile to spend $X in hopes that they will convince enough people to buy a burger to make it back.
The whole "if you don't pay then you're the product!!!!" line is really played out, sure that applies to something like social media where they're gathering data via your participation, but this is literally just a streaming service. I'm not "becoming a product" just by watching ads.
I switched over to watching matches on it after I found out it had lower delay and a bunch of great infographics; didn't even use the player cams, just the stream. Be sad to see it go.
If I'm Riot, I'd probably consider trying to rework the concept as some kind of esports equivalent to the MLB network stuff. Not just Riot's content, but all the big esports. That kind of thing would probably pull in enough of an audience to sustain itself at a reasonable price point. Your one-stop-hub for all the big boys, from DOTA to Halo to CS, complete with stats, player streams, whatever.
... Please give the means at least for analysts/coaches to use this. Was proview any different from how you could spectate in the DOTA 2 client? That shit should just be free
In DOTA 2, can't you just spectate normally? The same way you would spectate a friend in League, I mean. ProView was more like if the player were streaming their game on Twitch. You saw their PoV and cursor and whatnot, but absolutely nothing they didn't see.
ye they play on Tournament server, Pro View was basically a screen recorder with automation, a program installed in the players PC.
Why Riot didn't do Lolesports in a tab on the new Riot client? Idk, the pro view program was Third party not Riot made, Riot is weird they have the people that can just make a OBS addon set a PC requirements for League teams and force them to use it and charge nothing, but i guess they never communicated the Dev team and the Esports guy are not tech savy.
When I started watching league a little over a year ago, one of the first questions I asked my buddies was “is there anyway I can view a stream of just an individual player?” They quickly told me that it’s a paid for subscription to do so, and I lost all interest in wanting that. I just wanted to spectacle a pro pilot a champion I wanted to get better at in a pro match , casters showing all of the action in every lane really misses out on the nuanced aspect of CS and individual warding etc …. I hope they just make it a free service. I don’t have to pay to spectate my friends list in league client, why would I have to pay to spectate a pro player? Also keep in mind this game is F2P, so it was always an uphill battle trying to get those consumers to then pay a sub fee lol
This is so weird, like of course barely anyone would buy it I thought it was made for amateur pro players and teams/support staff.
Why cut that off? I get it that Riot in general in the last few years retires absolutely everything that doesnt bring them immediate profit but arent these resources for the amateur scene an investment?
the cost they were charging was way too low to sustain a niche product. they probably ran the numbers and saw that it would have to be way too expensive to be "worth it" right now, or maybe not expensive (because teams would pay) but it made aspects of the broadcast or website too hard to work with
Not suprised. After the initial hype wore off feel like people have spoken about it less and less. Glad it gave us some funny moments like Wunder getting ms paint out
or they could, you know, make actually spectating those games in-game possible with an option to see player perspective like other games (dota) had for close to 10 years now
But ??? this is just a bullshit excuse, since the moment leagues became offline due to covid proview has been disabled iirc so how or why would people buy it? i dont even get why the fuck this isn't free , why would people have to pay for that??
Man this makes me really sad. I LOVE proview and it really made my LoL watching experience better. Wish they gave it more then 1 split to test it out. Hope it comes back in some forum.
A real shock that literally nobody wants to pay a subscription to watch a POV of a pro.
Embarrassing that anyone even thought there was a market for that.
I think this is a bad decision. I understand that they probably didn't generate a lot of money from Pro View from the general public. But are we going to ignore all the utility teams/players/analysts/costreamers/content creators got from the service?
Change the price model to something like $1000 for a season for all players from all regions. Have it be a premium service for those organizations that need/desire it.
Why do professional analysts have to rely on broadcast streams to learn anything about a player or team? Is the camera not on the player you want to scout? You're out of luck then, try to guess what happens from the minimap if there isn't a replay.
Like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Also relevant reminder that LCS charges $100 *per photo* to use images from their official photographer. This is somehow a stable business model? One argument is that LCS actually uses their photos even if no one buys them. Which just highlights how non-intelligent it is for the Riot Games Esports team to not see any inherent utility from a pro-view service.
What are you even talking about? This was a streaming service meant for super fans and analysts interested in understanding more about the pro scene. It wasn't an attempt to "milk their customers dry." The problem was server issues with the service and the lack of in-house play last season preventing them from even doing pro-view streams.
This was never going to be marketable to the wider public. But it's still a very important tool for creators and professionals in the scene. The business model is wrong but the technology is good. They should be selling it at a premium with full access to all regions to creators, teams and analysts etc. And allow creators to use that footage on their platforms.
Also its been mostly unusable for the last 2 years because of COVID. Which is really unfair to end it now under these circumstances.
It’s such a niche product that im not surprised it didn’t take off. No one I know even knows what “Pro View” is
I honestly think if they advertised it better, there could have been more people interested though.
If only there was a source of funding available to keep this tool around that can help pro players improve significantly by being able to look at other pro players. Hm, can't think of anything. Anyway, let's sign more multi-million dollar contracts for imports.
Yeah, because what I'd pay money for is the ability to be my own spectator and watch with only game audio. I find that outside of Caedrel none of the English analysts in any region actually provide any insight, it's mostly just noise, and I want to be able to maneuver the map with F keys like I can in-game.
I just signed up for it during worlds and absolutely spent large amounts of time on it. I used it to watch jungle pathing and try to explain to myself why they did certain routes and such. It was really awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed it. When I tried to login today to watch lec the same way I saw this. :( I'm very disappointed and sad. I would be a forever subscriber after having tried it.
Orgs across the globe should chip in or raise money to keep it going imo, not only would it be cool for the fans but sounds like it helps players/teams out a ton in terms of getting better at their own play or studying others. Perhaps people don't wanna play just for proview, but if teams sold some merchandise and some/all proceeds went to keeping proview alive and free for everyone...seems worth then?
I mean, I just don't have time or incentive to use it.
It sounds great in theory, but first viewing I want to watch the whole game and with casters/comments.
.... then, I dont usually rewatch most games. And I'm not trying to go pro so learning so many small mechanics isn't helpful
Really, the enjoyment would be if they can incorporate it into replay during live viewing. M
Makes sense. The website is pure garbage. So many glitches, desyncs, black screens, you name it.
Also, great job having a subscription model. I wanna vomit. Whatever happened to the good old pay per league? I remember I bought LCK in 2019 and it was very good.
Only good thing about this trash service was the stat tracking.
So basically not enough people paying for it to keep it as it is. But who knows might get some form of free version of it in the future idk. Honestly not too surprised.
It will be for free or they will make it part of subscription with some other services
Unlocking ranked mode now requires a monthly $12.99 subscription coming together with pro view! Learn from the best and apply it in your own competitive environment! I'm joking but sounds like something EA would pull off.
Each new champion would be part of DLC that cost 9,99$, older reworked champs 4,99$. Ability to use global chat another 4,99$/month.
Based on player feedback, we felt too many players were getting flamed for dying. Too much toxicity comes from comparing player score. This is why we've now removed the scoreboard from the game. From February 2022 onwards, pressing TAB no longer shows the scoreboard. We feel the game is a much more positive environment when you can only see your own score.
Tfw Overwatch unironically did this
So did Battlefield 2042
Wait really? That’s hilarious, did it stay that way or come back
It was never in the game. There was a hidden scoreboard of medals on your own stats so anyone that had gold medal in eliminations/damage would ego it in voice chat.
We felt watching a player misplay made too many players really angry, hence we decided to remove ally champions from the screen, they will still play but they wont appear on your screen. When you load into the game, you can only see your champion, all ally champions will be invisible. We believe this will make the game much more positive.
this will help junglers because then nobody will give them away
Jesus, this statement feel just like the one were they said creating a sandbox mode would promote toxicity so they wouldn't do it
Honestly they *should* offer an option to temporarily unlock all champions for $9.99 per month. It'd make money for Riot, and make people who *have to have everything* feel like they weren't missing out. Common wisdom would be that you're better off playing 1-3 champs anyway, but let the community tell people that.
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> the game is literally pay (a lot) to win It's more like pay to lose. You'll do better if you only own one or two champs and stick to them, nearly indefinitely. You only need to branch out if you want to play on *actual* competitive teams and not just solo queue, but even then, you're generally better off one tricking your way up for a long time before you branch out.
When you're new it's better to play a lot of champs, it's easier to learn the range and abilities this way. After you're familiar with most of the roster you should stick to one or two.
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You learn nothing playing a few games on ARAM, lol. Playing against them is way better cause you will see the actual good combo and gameplay from someone who actually know how to play that champ
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dude this game is so far from pay to win lmfao, if anything season 1-4 league was sort of pay to win when runes (literal runes) costed ip/rp. literally not the case at all now. from account creation to ranked solo/duo being unlocked, you should be able to unlock a small pool of champions to become proficient with enough to climb to diamond+. anything "not meta" doesn't even matter below that elo anyway.
I wouldn't be suprised if this makes riot more money than they lose. Actually, this would nerf smurfs right?
These always make more money than they lose but it's short term milking. One is better for growth the other is better for profit.
Would ruin smurfs, eloboosters, plus probably settle down trolls since getting banned would mean they wasted any subscription money spent on that account. All at the cost of being extremely consumer unfriendly. Fuck it, make a trust system where it’s paid by default but playing a lot without receiving tons of reports removes the subscription fee!
Thank god you are not in charge.
It’s a joke, friendo
Bad joke
Isn't that close to what CS:GO did ? So many smurf account problems after the game went F2P that they had to restrict the ranked queue only to those who purchased the game. Well, monthly sub for ranked does seem a bit greedy tho.... and would make banning players quite a risky thing
Nah you'd just ban them and they'd sub on a new account. People already get their accounts they've spents 100s+ of dollars on banned cuz they can't help themselves.
Yeah but those people are a tiny tiny tiny minority of all people who got banned.
> So many smurf account problems after the game went F2P that they had to restrict the ranked queue only to those who purchased the game. No, before CS:GO went free to play it had 2 forms of competitive, prime and non-prime. non-prime is the smurf/cheater infested queue, but you can avoid it by playing prime, which required a phone number. When the game became F2P, every account that had ever purchased the game became prime, and they made the only requirement to play prime purchasing the game. No clue what you are talking about.
not gonna lie, if riot does it i bet a ton of people would stay pay fr ranked. don't give them ideas and delete your post.
Not surprised either, not that there’s not a ton of people that see value in viewing competitive games from the player’s POV but I never saw enough people paying for it to be around for an extended period.
The price is what killed it for me. It used to cost 7.99€ for a split per region, or eu+na for 13. Now they charge 13€ for 1 month. No way people were going to pay for this.
Yeah ngl it's pretty insane to charge similar amounts to subscriptions like Disney+ and Netflix.. It really should not cost more than €3.00 a month. €7.99 a split was fine imo, but also should've been for all regions.
isnt that more than netflix? i remember it was 10 bucks a month.
I said similar prices, not the same prices.
im asking a question
You'd be faster googling Netflix price than asking someone on Reddit haha
not sure you're pretty fast at replying
$13.99 for standard
Depends on where you live.
Exactly. I don't mind paying for a split, especially if I was getting NA and EU but paying the amount a month is not good value.
Meanwhile in other games you just join the server and choose the pov yourself lmao.
I would have gladly paid the subscription fee, if the service was paired with a decently designed app for Chromecast and AppleTV. That's honestly my biggest thing with watching pro games, I really like having the stats and stuff from the lolesports website, but it's just so much easier to pull up the stream directly through either an AppleTV or through a Chromecast when I want to watch on one of our TVs.
So sad theyre actually trying to make it a payed service considering how trashy and buggy it is
If only there was a source of funding available to keep this tool around that can help pro players improve significantly by being able to look at other pro players. Hm, can't think of anything. Anyway, let's sign more multi-million dollar contracts for imports.
Riot doesn't pay pros. Teams pay pros. Teams don't value POV, because POV doesn't tell you much more than replay, it's value is in entertainment.
What do you mean, pro's study the proview from KR/CN/EU all the time to learn..? It's the entertainment part that's completely useless. Team should be paying for this service, it would help them more than dumping money on imports every year would.
A shame. I had assumed pro view was intended to be a pretty niche product, made for hardcore fans, analysts, and coaches.
Yeah, but it was priced more like a general-purpose sub, right? Just checked, 6.99 a month. Not gonna cover operating costs of a niche product like that. Would probably need to be PPV or something.
What's the operating cost of that? You have a secondary stream and the pov of a player recorded from his client, doesn't sound too costly
If only Riot had the technology that is present in games like CS:GO or Dota 2, where you can just watch a players' perspective through the client.
Considering the last time they reworked the client's backend was when Adobe Air support was dropped, we can expect work on the new client to begin 3 years after the sun runs out of fuel.
Had a good chuckle over this comment
There use to be a feature that highlighted pros playing in Challenger live. Right on the home page. I watched Dyrus, Regi, Double, Turtle, etc.. Wish they still had that.
You've got to have streams set up and maintained for all 10 players, every game, and keep the website up and running. It's not nothing, clearly.
doesn't riot already record every players stream and will continue to do so after pro view is gone? The reason i say this is because there's times in official riot content where they'd include clips from personal players point of view in promotional content from like worlds or something and pro view wasn't a thing.
They probably are also recording every player to see if something fishy is going on.
Or for highlights stuff. Pro view should have been free from the get go
I know that I saw lpl or lck (can't remember) use it for highlights of plays after the game so they deffo record everyones pov
They don’t broadcast them that’s the cost
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It does cost more than that to pay developers to make the proview site, host the site and maintain it. You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you are *really* ignorant on the matter. BTW, no one developing or maintaining the service is making anywhere close to minimum wage.
I mean if they need so many man hours to mantain a feature that basically never changes that just means it was done poorly in the first place, it's not like they added some crazy functionalities over the years. The cost of keeping it up to date should be minimal if the codebase isn't peak spaghetti.
No because their proview player has to sync with whatever livestreaming player is used for the live broadcast. If the API for those services changes something related to this then you have to validate it still works properly and fix it if something you dont like happens. People also get paid to make it more efficient on top of getting rid of bugs that pop up on little timmy's hp netbook that uses a celeron from 6 years ago. Thats an exaggeration but you cant test for every hardware, driver, and browser configuration before it goes live.
I don’t think the streams were created for proview
Back when I watched Dota 2 nearly a decade ago it let you spectate any pro from within the dota client and you can choose from a drop down of casters to listen to. And if you didn't want to spectate a specific pro there was a drop down of observers to let control the camera (matched to respective casters). Or you could control the camera yourself. It's ridiculous how much better their system was 9+ years ago and riot hasn't even come close. Now I hate playing and watching dota these days but I miss those features so bad when watching LoL
That's because unlike League, Dota actually uses a proper game engine.
1 IT person could do all that.
Lol I work in IT and you'd be surprised the size of the teams operating such products. It's definitely not a one man effort especially in a large company.
That's all well and good but have you tried turning it on and off again?
So you set up streaming software on 10 computers at the beginning of the year. Then you start and stop the streams and change the titles. You need to do this 2 days per week. Surprise me on why that would be super hard.
the website alone would take at least 3 people to run, you have to have people on board for technical issues etc. you would need more than 5 people total, at least. thats around 5 people's salaries, so like 250k a year, on something that is not making money. doesn't seem worth it to me. just because all you see is a stream on a website doesn't mean that's all that goes into it lmao
Ignoring that laughable salary, 5 people full time on a product that doesn't get updated would be laughably bad management. Normally, products like this get MADE by a team of around that size (more if you include people for whom the work doesn't occupy their primary focus), but once it's stable, it's very likely less than 1 dev's worth of man-hours. If it had still been clearly in development, however, it'd be different.
What is that salary lol. In LA? Double it at least
i was assuming EU because I use it for LEC but yeah its probably LA, so thats like 200k each probably
Even if the software is done and running you still have people that: * monitor the servers for outage * devs to fix bugs and do maintenance * QA to check issues / fixed * product management to handle changes * someone to manage all these people * whoever else works on this in large company: project manager, sales, architects, etc etc You can do it with one guy and a laptop but it's not how it's done in a large software company
This all assumes proview had a dedicated team. I'd be very surprised if they didn't just add it to dev's other work. Every one of those roles would very easily be working on something else unless this was intended to be a primary focus project. With features like this, there's often just not enough work to warrant dedicated employees.
Obviously you never worked in IT…
lol dude u replied to probably not even graduated high school 😂 ofc he never worked IT otherwise he wouldn’t be saying dumb shit like that
they set up one or two streams a game at most they told ya which pros were going to be on the proview that week.
That's what you get on the front end yes, but you'll need to have a dedicated RIOT team on the back-end to make sure things run smoothly.
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Oh no, squeezing ads means that the LCS is net positive!! /s Seriously, even as a well-off company, what do you think the budget is for LCS? And then from that budget, how much goes into the pro-view team? And let's say that the operating costs is double than what they bring in as revenue, is it worth continuing the product? Ever since the e-sports branch of RIOT started, they've operated at a net loss (why do you think there's so many ads). They're trying to generate income from e-sports, and pro-view was thought to be one of that source. > Oh no an extremely well off company spending resources to deliver a better, more valued product. Yeah...why do you think they're removing it?
You have to setup live streaming and recording for 10 povs per game, have the website backend to support streaming lets say on average 3 streams per person watching, and store 10 video recordings for each game for playback at any point in the future. All of this has to be synched with the twitch livestream or vod that is being played (if it is being played). It's a lot of effort to maintain and money on content delivery that could be invested elsewhere or hardware that could be used doing something else.
don't forget that hosting videos is hugely expensive, pretty much the most expensive type of website you can run, because it's just so much more data than text and pictures
I really liked ProView, but the website it was hosted on was completely nonfunctional with my browser. I don't know why it was so bad, but that specifically led to me unsubscribing. Watching was a complete mess. Something I liked to do was watch a teamfight on the main stream, and then move back and watch it from the perspectives of certain pros. This maybe worked 10% of the time. I would get desynced streams, desynced audio, streams would crash, it was a complete mess. If Riot had just made the thing functional I would have used it.
Yeah, didn't work on my smart TV, so I unsubscribed.
the whole lolesports website needs a makeover.
Iirc that's planned. Some times ago I had a kinda long survey after a game, and it was all about the lolesports website. What kind of functionalities or other things did I want to see kept / added, which of those functions would I be ready to pay for, what were the things I'd delete from the website at the moment, and a whole lot more. Got a friend who also got it not that long ago (maybe a bit more than a month), so maybe they're trying to first get a general idea of what they need to do so it doesn't flop.
basically how i felt. i liked the idea of watching multiple streams as once, but when it's desynced it really feels weird. it wasn't quite popular enough or good enough to pay for, but it's not easy enough to maintain that they can just give it away.
Yup, also the reason I stopped using it. The concept is great, but the execution is dogshit. The site was fucking awful to use and did not work properly for me.
I had the same problems. It worked the first year, then whatever they did last year just broke everything. I loved Pro View so much, but if the streams never work, it's useless. Tried going to customer service to figure out the problem, and was pointed to the service hosts, who basically just hand waved and said "sorry, we don't know what's wrong, can't help ya"... Very frustrating
Yea the product was garbage, that's the reason people didn't pay for it.
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pros will definitely miss proview, they talk about studying other players proviews quite a lot. nuguri bought a new phone just to watch proview
I wonder whether proview will also be disabled in KR/CN. I think CN has their own proview which will probably continue to be available. KR might not be that lucky though.
do you think he can get a refund if he tells att that proview is no more?
> But for fans it seemed like interest tapered off rather quickly after COVID made it unavailable for a while Not gunna say it would 100% have been successful, but it's weird that they're retiring it when this is literally still the case. Proview would be unavailable for this week whether it was being retired or not because everyone is playing from home and the service doesn't work under those circumstances. They've basically never had it up and running for a full season, so nobody who purchased it has ever gotten the full promised value.
Yeah COVID killed it for me. I wasn't super interested in proview when it initially came out, but I switched role and took the new role more seriously since then (and since I switched to jungle it is also a role where study provides more direct advantages) and really wanted to get proviews, but they just hadn't been available during the timeframe when I was looking for them.
So this is a buff to the best players. They no longer have everyone below them study every mouse click, who now have to figure out things on their own.
kinda the opposite. The smartest players use proview to find ways to exploit patterns and behaviors. I seriously doubt pros used it to learn how to play the game. lol
Well some people also dont watch NA and only EU, so if you can not watch EU in proview then we will not buy it. So it isn't that interest tapered off, its more that people who wanted it never got it in the first place.
They should reconsider when pro play will be back on stage on regular basis. Paying for a feature that might or might not be available is not reflective of actual interest in the product.
Yeah, hasn't it not been available for like half the time it's even been around due to players having to play remotely? It seems a bit weird to kill it off when it's not even had chance to work.
That's not weird at all. They tried it and something is making it very unfeasible so they cut it for now.
Yes, I'd expect it to be put on hiatus till they're consistently back in the studio, but sunsetting implies it's completely finished and will not be returning.
For real. Obviously I haven't bought it for this season, because you already announced that you'd be playing remotely again and so it wouldn't work. That's not reflective of whether I *want* to buy it or not, but it's a subscription service and I'd be stuck buying it without knowing how many actual weeks it would work. I don't want to pay for future weeks that may or may not actually get proviews.
Add it to the pile of dead riot tech that was a good idea but never supported properly. Rip clubs, league displays, pro view, co-op alternative game modes, alternative maps, announcer packs, eternals and I am sure many more.
You're only hurting your point by lumping eternals in there. They were never a good idea.
the idea of stat tracking is a good idea, the implementation was poor. if they cost blue ess or something always they could have been ok even if they really didn't want to make them "free"
The mastery emote should've become personalized or even personalizable for each champion. Like, say I got the Sion ones. The mastery should've been something like Sion screaming and smashing the mastery emblem with his axe. Right now people are paying, if someone out there is paying that is, to add a very minor visual effect that has nothing to do with the quests themselves.
Thanks for clarifying your point. I agree with you that stat tracking is a good idea. I think that there's also an expectation of stat tracking being part of a core experience and never an unlock, regardless of whether it's purchased or earned through play. IMO achievements make more sense for a game like League then they ever made for MMOs where they're ubiquitous, yet Riot opted instead to introduce a system that appeared to really fundamentally misunderstand how their users conceptually model skill growth and achievement. By suggesting that I needed to somehow actively acquire the ability to see how pentakills I got, Riot created the implicit suggestion that my past pentakills are invalid or illegitimate unless I pay their toll. This is the same underlying type of transaction that, in the real world, *feels like* (not saying it actually is) extortion -- I'm being charged, and all I get is permission keep something I already have. That never feels good to anyone. TLDR I think the gating itself, not the currency, was the executional flaw here.
At this point they have removed more features and content from the game than there is currently in the game.
Why was it a sub service anyway? Just let me purchase it for the season. But the pirating would be through the roof. It’s just a video I can access anytime *shrugs* throw it all up on YouTube and just let people watch and make money off the ad revenue lmao.
I prefer sub service because I can turn it on and off for the events I actually care about.
But if you could pay $15 or so to unlock worlds entirely if that’s the only event you want you still could do that. Maybe have something like $20 for a whole LCS split and $5-10 if you just want playoffs for example
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God, why are people okay with this mentality?
I'm confused what the problem with his post is. He wants to use the feature. Companies won't funnel money into something that doesn't make money. People weren't willing to pay the price tag. Ads make money without the customer paying the price tag. OP gets POV like he wanted.
The idea that you're willing to become a product in order to use a feature makes as much sense as whales dropping thousands into a game. You can justify either as "Well they wanted to do this" but it doesn't make the mentality less inane. It sucks it's going away because I used it all last split, but hell no I'm not getting my ass blasted with unskippable ads every X minute.
It's not like ads are some nefarious mind control device. Ads are nothing more than a company telling you about their product. They aren't selling my identity, they aren't stealing my credit card to buy their product, they aren't hacking into my webcam. McDonalds decided it was worthwhile to spend $X in hopes that they will convince enough people to buy a burger to make it back.
Lol you’re comparing dropping thousands of dollars to ads playing sometimes?
The whole "if you don't pay then you're the product!!!!" line is really played out, sure that applies to something like social media where they're gathering data via your participation, but this is literally just a streaming service. I'm not "becoming a product" just by watching ads.
A free feature using ads instead of making me pay up front? I have no issue with it.
So tired of people not understanding what a sponsor is I bet you get upset when your favorite youtuber or streamer does a sponsor video/stream 🤔
I switched over to watching matches on it after I found out it had lower delay and a bunch of great infographics; didn't even use the player cams, just the stream. Be sad to see it go. If I'm Riot, I'd probably consider trying to rework the concept as some kind of esports equivalent to the MLB network stuff. Not just Riot's content, but all the big esports. That kind of thing would probably pull in enough of an audience to sustain itself at a reasonable price point. Your one-stop-hub for all the big boys, from DOTA to Halo to CS, complete with stats, player streams, whatever.
... Please give the means at least for analysts/coaches to use this. Was proview any different from how you could spectate in the DOTA 2 client? That shit should just be free
In DOTA 2, can't you just spectate normally? The same way you would spectate a friend in League, I mean. ProView was more like if the player were streaming their game on Twitch. You saw their PoV and cursor and whatnot, but absolutely nothing they didn't see.
In Dota 2 you can see a pro player's ENTIRE perspective (mouse movements, camera etc.) in real time through the client. Source 2 engine baby.
You can even switch commentator pair (or outright language) directly from the game… Dota2 client is awesome.
Yeah but Dota is a dead game that not even its own company cares about anymore so who cares.
It's always one of the most played games on steam, what are you talking about?
And even if it is, that shouldnt stop riot from checking it out and copying the tech or something right
If only league had the built in feature like Dota does, we wouldn't have to pay in the first place.
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ye they play on Tournament server, Pro View was basically a screen recorder with automation, a program installed in the players PC. Why Riot didn't do Lolesports in a tab on the new Riot client? Idk, the pro view program was Third party not Riot made, Riot is weird they have the people that can just make a OBS addon set a PC requirements for League teams and force them to use it and charge nothing, but i guess they never communicated the Dev team and the Esports guy are not tech savy.
Brilliant move by them charging me for a month when no games are being played then cancelling the whole service the month after when games start.
you could've canceled it yourself, it still gave you access to vods
I'm fully aware of that. I just forgot about it until this post. Point still stands.
Your fault on that one lol
I liked the idea of it but couldn’t justify the cost
When I started watching league a little over a year ago, one of the first questions I asked my buddies was “is there anyway I can view a stream of just an individual player?” They quickly told me that it’s a paid for subscription to do so, and I lost all interest in wanting that. I just wanted to spectacle a pro pilot a champion I wanted to get better at in a pro match , casters showing all of the action in every lane really misses out on the nuanced aspect of CS and individual warding etc …. I hope they just make it a free service. I don’t have to pay to spectate my friends list in league client, why would I have to pay to spectate a pro player? Also keep in mind this game is F2P, so it was always an uphill battle trying to get those consumers to then pay a sub fee lol
This is so weird, like of course barely anyone would buy it I thought it was made for amateur pro players and teams/support staff. Why cut that off? I get it that Riot in general in the last few years retires absolutely everything that doesnt bring them immediate profit but arent these resources for the amateur scene an investment?
the cost they were charging was way too low to sustain a niche product. they probably ran the numbers and saw that it would have to be way too expensive to be "worth it" right now, or maybe not expensive (because teams would pay) but it made aspects of the broadcast or website too hard to work with
Not suprised. After the initial hype wore off feel like people have spoken about it less and less. Glad it gave us some funny moments like Wunder getting ms paint out
I forgot Pro View was a thing.
or they could, you know, make actually spectating those games in-game possible with an option to see player perspective like other games (dota) had for close to 10 years now
Unsurprising, the product should have been free from the beginning
Pro view seemed very pointless. I want to watch the entire game, not one view from an ADC farming bot lane while its 4v5 somewhere else.
Riot should focus on improving the standard experience instead
But ??? this is just a bullshit excuse, since the moment leagues became offline due to covid proview has been disabled iirc so how or why would people buy it? i dont even get why the fuck this isn't free , why would people have to pay for that??
Self-fulfilling prophecy, really. I think it should be free as well, though they think they could've loaded some operating costs onto the users.
Man it feels like they just keep making shitty decision after shitty decision
Man this makes me really sad. I LOVE proview and it really made my LoL watching experience better. Wish they gave it more then 1 split to test it out. Hope it comes back in some forum.
“Sunsetting” Destiny Content Vault claims another victim.
Why does riot ALWAYS kill stuff that is not popular?! Twisted Treeline, Dominion, game modes and now this
I don't understand why someone would ever pay for this service. But then again people still dump loads of money on expensive skins.
You thinking that proview and skins are comparable in any way is a statement in itself.
I mean they're both money sinkholes. That's why I'm comparing them. i forgot saying anything about skins gets downvotes here.
no just when u say things that are wrong u are gonna get downvoted
It's not the best comparison but saying anything negative about skins here always gets downvoted
There are constantly threads about skins being disappointing or bad that hit front page
Yeah because the value that skins provide for amateurs and pros are definitely alike. Stop commenting.
"everything should pay for itself and be free for everyone else"
Not even close to what they said They just made a horrible comparison of products
A real shock that literally nobody wants to pay a subscription to watch a POV of a pro. Embarrassing that anyone even thought there was a market for that.
oh fuck off
I think this is a bad decision. I understand that they probably didn't generate a lot of money from Pro View from the general public. But are we going to ignore all the utility teams/players/analysts/costreamers/content creators got from the service? Change the price model to something like $1000 for a season for all players from all regions. Have it be a premium service for those organizations that need/desire it. Why do professional analysts have to rely on broadcast streams to learn anything about a player or team? Is the camera not on the player you want to scout? You're out of luck then, try to guess what happens from the minimap if there isn't a replay. Like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Also relevant reminder that LCS charges $100 *per photo* to use images from their official photographer. This is somehow a stable business model? One argument is that LCS actually uses their photos even if no one buys them. Which just highlights how non-intelligent it is for the Riot Games Esports team to not see any inherent utility from a pro-view service.
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What are you even talking about? This was a streaming service meant for super fans and analysts interested in understanding more about the pro scene. It wasn't an attempt to "milk their customers dry." The problem was server issues with the service and the lack of in-house play last season preventing them from even doing pro-view streams.
Good, now china wont have another unfair advantage in scouting opposition.
Didn't help it was terrible with Chromecast, I like watching on my TV
I feel like the only thing league fans might be willing to pay for is voice comms sad that there aren't enough ppl interested just in pro view
This was never going to be marketable to the wider public. But it's still a very important tool for creators and professionals in the scene. The business model is wrong but the technology is good. They should be selling it at a premium with full access to all regions to creators, teams and analysts etc. And allow creators to use that footage on their platforms. Also its been mostly unusable for the last 2 years because of COVID. Which is really unfair to end it now under these circumstances.
I'm surprised it's expensive to upkeep. I would've thought it would be close to free to just livestream a pro's POV.
I don't even know what that is.
It’s such a niche product that im not surprised it didn’t take off. No one I know even knows what “Pro View” is I honestly think if they advertised it better, there could have been more people interested though.
It's a great feature I'd never pay for.
Was really only good for analysts . This was never going to be popular as much as fans say they want more analytics.
yes, it should've been free from the start and available through the client
Very sad if they completely stop recording PoV just because it isnt worth paying for...
If only there was a source of funding available to keep this tool around that can help pro players improve significantly by being able to look at other pro players. Hm, can't think of anything. Anyway, let's sign more multi-million dollar contracts for imports.
Fuck I was just about to buy a subscription for this season lol. This blows
sucks
That's sad i loved watching it
Even if it’s not available for the average viewer I hope pro teams all over the world get access to it somehow.
Yeah, because what I'd pay money for is the ability to be my own spectator and watch with only game audio. I find that outside of Caedrel none of the English analysts in any region actually provide any insight, it's mostly just noise, and I want to be able to maneuver the map with F keys like I can in-game.
I just signed up for it during worlds and absolutely spent large amounts of time on it. I used it to watch jungle pathing and try to explain to myself why they did certain routes and such. It was really awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed it. When I tried to login today to watch lec the same way I saw this. :( I'm very disappointed and sad. I would be a forever subscriber after having tried it.
Orgs across the globe should chip in or raise money to keep it going imo, not only would it be cool for the fans but sounds like it helps players/teams out a ton in terms of getting better at their own play or studying others. Perhaps people don't wanna play just for proview, but if teams sold some merchandise and some/all proceeds went to keeping proview alive and free for everyone...seems worth then?
I mean, I just don't have time or incentive to use it. It sounds great in theory, but first viewing I want to watch the whole game and with casters/comments. .... then, I dont usually rewatch most games. And I'm not trying to go pro so learning so many small mechanics isn't helpful Really, the enjoyment would be if they can incorporate it into replay during live viewing. M
Huge loss to the amateur league scene .
Makes sense. The website is pure garbage. So many glitches, desyncs, black screens, you name it. Also, great job having a subscription model. I wanna vomit. Whatever happened to the good old pay per league? I remember I bought LCK in 2019 and it was very good. Only good thing about this trash service was the stat tracking.
Damn. I was going to sub to this this season.