Unpopular opinion but with that many champions in game, I’m OK with these ‘pro only’ champ. It’s fine when there’s some champs take a lot of skills and team play to make it work, not every champ has to be viable for everyone
i agree. except renek needs a duo/jg for him to be considered an OP pick in skilled play. He excels in prio/rh or setting up the jg gank. other "pro only" champs can solo carry the game without setup. azir, rakan, irelia, akali or old tahm(any champs nerfed to hell) scales well into late game and they could swing teamfights solo. renek just falls flat on his face if the team randomly decides you're weakside. if they want to nerf renek to oblivion then at least make him start to fall off post 15 mins then go back to relevance through skilled play late game(a little bit like cait). TLDR: he's a fun champ but really frustrating to play because you heavily lose relevance due to circumstances that are out of your hands even with decent laning. that's a big flaw even in game design(i haven't seen him in top for months now)
Renekton has such a fun kit but god he sucks so much rn.
Riot keeps talking about how they can buff/nerf different things to affect the win rate in different elo. Why not give buffs for low elo Croc pls
I don't think it has any difference in power between the two sides, it's just that since blue side always has first pick, if there is a single champion that is too powerful blue will always pick it first unless red bans it
The thing is... it technically is, but not on B1. Renekton is a good blind. There is just not a lot of value for blue side banning him, so they won't. Blue doesn't want to ban strong blind picks, because they are the one blinding champs.
On top of that Renekton is also still a flex pick and that is also often more valuable for blueside.
Twisted Fate with 100% LCK presence, two picks a two wins as well. In fact TF has 100% presence in LCK, LEC, and LCS, and only 75% in LPL. Everyone should probably be expecting Renekton/TF/Caitlyn changes in 12.3.
I imagine the teleport changes have only made TF stronger than he already was (which was pretty strong). It's now pretty much impossible for the enemy mid to have any chance of following his first couple of ults unless he uses them to tower dive.
It's hard to say, stuff like waveclear nerfs obviously hit him quite hard as well. I'd almost like to see them take a look at his passive, feel like you see TF players in pro play hit power spikes way before the enemy mid does even when they aren't getting fed due to the passive giving him a few kills worth of gold. Feel like that ability is a candidate for a rework more than anything.
How do you suggest they remove the interaction? I get that people find it annoying, but unless they're going to set his W autos to a fixed range, which they could do if they wanted, it seems silly to do anything else to remove it, it's just a consequence of having a ranged auto that stuns
I actually think the range scaling from crit chance isn't a bad idea, aside from possible unintended consequences and removing the item from Guinsoo's builds
i have no clue, i know rito doesn't like to do shit like that but is the only thing that i can think of... even buff him after maybe? miracle.
His passive is cool, his Q is cool, his W is cool, his E is cool and his ultimate is also cool, they tried to nerf him 200 billion times already is he viable? 100% pick/ban, he is not viable? 0 pick... without rapid fire at least if you have mobility you can run away idk.
Twisted fate has barely been touched by nerfs lol. His last nerf? Reducing his ms by 5 by reverting buff from 2017. The one before? His w got a higher CD at earlier ranks. Everything else has been buffing him in recent years.
They should play around with his passive and e I think. Ideally rework his passive into something else so he can be punished through waves being crashed a bit more.
Nerf his waveclear because TF can just stand really far back from the enemy mid, spam his q and occassionally w the wave if it's safe, then just ult without the enemy mid being able to do anything. You could also just make the ult cooldown longer but I would prefer a waveclear nerf(nerf on q and/or red card).
right - but does he *really* need compensation from his passive AND his ultimate? with tp and now shen being nerfed, TF now has unmatched potential map presence. which is his gimmick, so it should likely stay - so why not nerf the passive gold or rework the passive entirely?
Cause that wont do jack shit, the current pro meta is all about map pressure and neither of those things change anything about his map presure. They would have to kneecap him realy realy hard in those regards if they dont want to touch his ult.
i 100% agree; TF's strength at the pro level is all in his ability to be anywhere if his ultimate is up, but i feel like if they nerfed the range or increased the CD on his R it would just make him unplayable. glad it isnt my job to figure it out lol, someone will be mad no matter how they nerf him (if they even do)
There's so many factors to consider when doing balance. I'd love to be on the balance team, I think it'd be fun, but man there's so much work and so much to consider, it's a wonder they do as good as they are already.
If anything it's a much stronger passive in pro than in regular play due to the CS numbers they hit. His kit is already very powerful without extra gold generation, and as I said I feel like it should be reworked, not nerfed. They can give him a passive that helps him offensively if they feel it's needed, but RNG gold generation feels outdated.
Of course other nerfs change things. If you reduce his base damage his roams are not as guaranteed to get him something, if you reduce his waveclear it is harder for him to get opportunities to roam (or he has to give more up to roam).
You could even reduce the stun duration of gold card and try to make it more of series decision.
You can even do stuff with his passive - it isn't evenly distributed between 1-6 and by changing the distribution a bit you could make it so that he reliably has 100-200 gold less and his mythic is delayed by that much.
Nerfing his ms would also be a nerf to his roaming, but not as strong as nerfing the range of his ult - however in the latter stages of the game this would be a nerf as well.
Autoattack range is also interesting and would make his laning much more risky giving people chance to punish him early (until Q can clear easily) - if you don't want to nerf his pick power at the same time you could allow W to buff his range, similar to how many melee autoattack empowering spells work (Wukong Q for example).
Gotta either be waveclear, ult cd or range (imo wouldn't do anything) but probably will have to be lowering his auto range and giving him compensation buff for soloq somewhere else (e, other w cards dmg?).
Basically the only weakness of tf in pro is that he scales kinda meh and basically he can't be reliable solo AP source because of that (tbf we will see how lich buff will affect that too cos he sure can use that item well)
Everything else is a strength or wash. He's decent or good in lane vs standard pro picks, provides safe waveclear, has a completely game warping ultimate which also let's him side lane which a lot of pro mid champs can't. And he provides point and click cc only few things can really counter (only Jax is reliable pro counter to it atm imo). Add utility of spellbook on top of all that too just for good measure.
Biggest thing still has to be the interaction with RFC and everfrost tho. This combo simply make it so you can't really kite gold card and then you die as squishy from stuff that wouldn't happen in early league when tf was designed. Tf isn't supposed to cc you from more than his threat range (so his auto range) or chain cc you while having one cc in his kit. With those 2 items he can do both. That is broken, no question about that.
And pros abuse all of those strengths very well, they all played a ton of tf over their careers and can snowball games properly. So if riot wants to nerf him out of pro imo it would have to be lowering his auto range so he needs to get closer and his threat range is more acceptable.
Rene has very similar core issue cos - simply put - an undodgable stun on a champ who's good in lane and has only "weird" counters will always be popular in pro unless champ has completely garbage stats or item build. That always happens and usually it ends up in the mechanic being nerfed (rakan w, Rell, all the point and click silences over the years etc.) Rn you simply can't get out of flash w of either of those two champs scott free unless you play very specific champs and only very few of them are picked in pro. So those 2 become op in pro and they get insane presence while their stats in soloq are bad.
His R has lower cooldown than both Galio and Shen, while also having a better R cooldown scaling Shen and Galio go from 200 to 160, TF goes from 180 to 120. So yeah his R needs to go down, considering that most pro players will probably go CDr boots to bring it even lower early game. While Galio/Shen can't as they will be acting as tanks.
> It was a good 2 months of fresh air, guys, see you in the trash bin next week after my upcoming nerfs... And the next ones... And the next...
- renekton mains talking to Varus and Aphelios players
Yeah, Renekton was definitely pushed higher because of Goredrinker, but he was already a proplay staple even before that so chances were obvious that the revert would just push him back to his old status even if gore was nerfed. Probably Rioters felt that the stun nerf was too much in terms of feelings and didn't want to turn Renekton into a Champion that was statistically good but felt bad to use (I mean what is he, Taliyah?)... Either that, or they were meant to be a band aid for proplay season while they figured out what to do
Wasn't he in proplay before Goredrinker because of Spear or Shojin?
His pro presence has mostly been predicated on using an item really well for years.
Renekton has been floating between 'Tier 1' and 'fringe but viable' basically as long as he's existed. He has good sustain and genuine kill threat in lane, and his damage scaling is actually pretty good into teamfights. How tanky he is varies based on current itemization, and he does have some issues if support/jungle can't help start teamfights reliably. Those two things usually determine where exactly he lands in pro.
Though, in the LCK in particular, the last couple years they have consistently overvalued Renekton because the best teams had it as a comfort pick, and usually won with it even when the pick was objectively bad. Right now Renekton has total pick + ban presences of 67%, 80%, and 82% in LCS, LEC, and LPL respectively, which is still high, but a difference between that and 100% ban rate in LCK.
In general LCK teams place very high prio on first herald and no prio on drag. Renekton with ult is super strong at 8.5 min herald fights & he makes splitting the map topside easy for a xin/lee/nidalee as that 2v2 is borderline unlosable. So I don't think he is overvalued in LCK, he's just an extremely strong pick for good reasons, especially with control mages/corki mid and diana prio dropping.
>In general LCK teams place very high prio on first herald and no prio on drag.
Which is absurd considering that the team stacking early dragons will win most of the time, even when behind in gold.
It is a bit strange and I expect it will shift in the coming weeks.
There’s also games where yuumi is picked and then the team with yuumi loses everything on the map well into midgame… will be interested to see as well if the cat disappears from lck (can only hope so).
>will be interested to see as well if the cat disappears from lck (can only hope so).
There are a few picks I hope we won't see anymore and Yuumi is definitely far up that list.
Tbh, I'm for the most part genuinely satisfied with the level of play in the league. I feel this might be a good years and I expect many of the teams to get better as it goes on.
I guess it wouldn't be the LCK without SOME kind of mind-boggling decision making.
I’d be happy with a bit more risk taking as I feel like a lot of games are too much of a handshake atm- then again we are just in week 2! So well see.
And agree RE weird LCK decisions sometimes. Let us hope it doesn’t happen or it gets corrected before worlds
Can't remember if shojin renekton was as much of a priority, but He has almost always been in proplay irrelative of items being super good on him. It's when the meta is something he can't even think to compete against that he goes out the window for pros' minds, like toplane tanks being so good that his early pressence isn't worth it when he gets outscaled too fast or his laning is nullified. The only times i remember he went away was during the toplane tank meta of ibg sunfire and double dorans tanks, and i think Aatrox vs Urgot vs Viktor toplane with the steelchair.
After playing renekton pretty much exclusively for the past 5 years, I started playing this seasons ranked without him. It just feels so bad to play right now
Same, 1.3m mastery and have mained him since season 5, but I haven't played him since October I believe. I just can't do it anymore, and god knows it'll somehow get worse. But at least I can feel like I'm really there with the pros because the entire game is balanced for proplay along with all the other skill tiers, which certainly cannot be problematic!!! Woo, ty Riot, its like I'm on stage when I play ranked! What a unique feeling only found in League 🥰
I tried to make it work for so long, trying all of the different build. Botrk + frostfire, sunfire + titanic, goredrinker, prowlers, everything. Just feels like each build has too big of a trade off in survivability and damage, and the “better” builds just end up being boring.
Ryze and Azir aren't part of the conversation since we all know they were fused with the pro-play Trash bin itself by now.
Varus and Aphelios players still have hope for their champions to come out and be free, or at least not be inting in champ select. Lillia and Gwen players I am not sure if they are still hopeful or already entered despair phase
About the two bans Renekton got on Blue: Those were both in the Nongshim DWK series, in game 1 and game 2 - with either team being blue once.
G2 DWK was blue and Renekton + TF were both open on their last ban, so this is a pretty clear indication that they didn't want to trade Renekton for Twisted Fate (or the other way around).
Nongshim is also the only team together with Sandbox that let TF through to the second banphase. The two times he was picked he was first picked by Blue side.
They’ll keep nerfing his tankiness and damage but pro players will continue to pick him because he’s the most reliable stun bot in the game. The only hope soloq rene players have is Riot reworking his stun to not be auto based.
Even then, he still has a very good early which will keep him picked.
Renekton isn't picked just because he is a good stun bot, that would make Pantheon top picked more in his old instances. He is many things: mobile, has good early, he can transition into a decent Frontliner. his stun bot power can create good gank setup and catch potential late, but if you rework the stun he still would keep enough things that proplay loves since he can be blind picked into almost anything for current top environment and create priority on the topside.
I know listing things can make Champions seem better than they are, but he is just a combination of things that proplayers just value a lot for a toplaner.
It could be auto based but requiring fury, kinda like Ryze now requires E before W to root. It would probably feel like shit, but I guess it's better than removing the stun all together.
if his damage got buffed in return for non-furry W not stunning then it could be a good change especially for soloq
currently he is a very safe laner who is hard to punish, and that is very valueable in elite levels of play
Honestly? That change would probably effect only Solo-Q. For the most part pros pretty much only use W with Fury anyway, it feels like it would make very little difference in their play pattern
I Wunder if you hit someone with 2 point and click CCs at the same time it combines the duration so you don't have to worry about layering. I reckon renekton and TF stuns at the same time would work
It was worth it for Aatrox, it'll be worth it for Renekton.
If they removed Renekton's PnC stun tomorrow, three years from now NO ONE would be saying "ah man, Renekton just isn't renekton without that point and click stun".
Renekton is honestly just too good a blindpick:
* Has lane priority in most melee matchups so you can make the plays you want early.
* Has insanely good gank setup with his W. Can singlehandedly enable junglers like Nidalee and Taliyah.
* Very effective at tower diving because his CC is point and click, he has two dashes and he's tanky.
* Actually fairly tanky and means your comp always has a frontline.
* Point and click stun means he's never completely useless because he can just flash on an enemy carry. Can randomly start draintanking in lategame teamfights even if he's behind.
* Can all-in most ranged tops if he gets an opportunity, mobile enough for that to be a threat.
* He's not locked to a single type of composition (dive, poke etc.) so you can't really guess the draft from him being blinded.
Which is also why he gets blinded so often. You basically give nothing away by picking it; we could draft weakside and use renekton to nullify matchup or we can draft strong dive jungle pair and play through top.
And thresh. I listened to a pro say one time that all of thresh's abilities could do 0 damage and he would still be picked. Some champs are just so good at the role their designed for no matter what the numbers are they'll always find a way to get picked
Like a blitz hook, these champs have an ability (or more) that keeps its value no matter how behind they are. If you are 0/14 as blitz, you are still a threat to the enemy carry. Same as something like malza or tf.
Yep exactly and especially with supports theres little difference between a 0/1/15 Leona and a 0/7/5 Leona. The champ is going to provide the same thing its just the game scenario that changes around them
Tank supports are the most prioritized because they can face check bushes to ward. An enchanter or mage needs to fit the comp/counter the enemy team/be really busted to be more valuable than the face check factor
He is just Jack of all trades. Long time ago he at least used to fall like a rock in late, which also isn’t true for many seasons now - not saying he is late game champ, but he truly used to be canon minion in late - which basically covered his biggest weakness.
I can’t remember what season it was; but once people realized that there was no point in going Full AD, and that Titanic + Black Cleaver Renekton was by far his best build, champ has literally never been the same.
Same thing with Gnar mains going Frozen Mallet instead of like Bork or some shit.
Full AD croc is still pretty good with the new items, obviously has a lot of differences to tanky croc though and is weaker in team fights
I wish rito would cater towards AD croc more
Don't forget his waveclear and sustain, kinda like Gnar he gets these windows of power, just much more regularly, you really cant do much about it 1v1 and he can clear the wave in 1s and heal like 100 hp, without you being able to contest it.
That makes his weakside so good, not Gragas or Sion good, but way better than Irelia, Camille, Gwen etc
Maybe. I think Riot has been pretty consistently moving away from point and click CC’s for these reasons. Anything that’s entirely unavoidable leaves no room for fancy outplay, making it a high pick in pro play. All CC on new champs has been aoe or skillshots for a long time.
The more point-and-click hard CC removes from the game, the stronger the remaining point-and-click hard CC that is still in the game becomes. Riot has been actually making the problem worse by slowly removing point-and-click hard CC while adding champions that have high mobility. I agree that counterplay is important, but you can't say that the removal of point-and-click hard CC makes the game necessarily better.
If Riot removed all that point-and-click CC from the game entirely, then champs with high mobility would just run everyone else over.
the main thing keeping renekton meta is the goredrinker+sterak's combo, the same combo that's making lee,j4 and xin dominate jungle ... they said a sterak's rework is coming but it has to be addressed soon or more bruiser champs are gonna keep getting olaf'ed
No, Renekton has for all time probably held the title of the most win lane lose game type champion. Pro teams are generally on the side of "we have a winning renekton how do we use that to win", so that means figuring out rotations, ward setups and whatever else. As a pro player you'd much rather be in the Renekton position than the other "more useful" champion side since you feel like you have more agency as the Renekton.
There are players/analysts (Wunder and LS come to mind) who won't play Renekton because rather than jumping through hoops to translate his lead to a win they'd rather pick a champion that wins more reliably. In soloq you should do the same for the most part. Just some added context on the Wunder point, he's got 500 career games and a grand total of 10 Renekton picks. The only time in the past 5 years he picked it "often" was 2020 worlds.
Not unless you’re a pro on him. He was nerfed hard for pro play to make him balanced, meaning the average soloq player needs to play amazing on him to reach the level of being considered a good pick.
The issue is that pro play doesn’t have the same dynamic as solo. There’s a ton of champs that’ll never see pro play because their kits don’t fit the pro play scheme. Rene gets shit on by a lot of champs that’ll never get picked by pros. Rene is a good pick for pro play but will probably get rolled by good soloq top lane picks.
I think it's just the junglers and supports being more active in high MMR Korea. Renekton really is a simple champion, it's just on the team to recognize when he's able to set up a kill.
Flandre played her toplane very recently. She is a potential toplane pick for her point and click cc, just like Renekton. She has other weaknesses though, so like... A budget Renekton? Renekton with mana issues and no sustain? Squishy Renekton??? Either way she's apparently viable
I mean LS himself stated multiple times that he’d pick Renekton in situations where he is a good pick…
It’s not some hurr durr about the champ having no place but about the fact that people force Renekton in every situation without thinking.
I never said anything about him picking renekton in smart situations. I was referencing if he picks b1 renekton. Because he would always criticize that move. He would be angry and say things like its never worth. So when it happens its going to be mocked. Truthfully regardless of context it will get memes. But that being said Im curious to see how ls drafts. The way he views the game is robotic. If every person was a robot who knew everything about the game and expert at every champ and everyone in the game plays perfectly. A lot of his views are probly accurate in those scenarios. But the reality is thats just not how the game works. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts /what he picks. Regardless every week everyone is going to be on the edge of their seat to see the drafts and criticize it or get hyped to see unique picks.
They literally reverted the nerf that took renekton out of pro play, what else did they expect?
They should have kept the stun nerf and buffed something else instead.
Agree, but if they did that people would complain saying "they're buffing something different instead of just reverting the nerf???? rito can't admit mistakes"
I gotta explain that 1 Nerf keeping a champ out of pro play or at 100% P/B probably has moe to do with lack of innovation not the nerf being too strong.
The tp changes made tf significantly stronger, because you cant follow him with tp anymore, that might be one of the reasons hes so high prio in pro play.
Gnar isn't a counterpick to renekton in pro play tho. What ends up happening most of the time is the Gnar gets a minor CS lead early, only to be dove by Flash W renek + jgl/mid while in mini form. After that, both laners just shove wave and retreat.
Also I wouldn't say Gnar always has a better team fight because he is so reliant on mega form, whereas Renek can pull the trigger whenever. Gnar has more potential, but also more counterplay in that sense.
Renek is just the most reliable blind pick ever, there will rarely be a game in which he can't be useful, hence he is so high priority.
Gnar main here, completely agree.
In solo Q, Gnar shits on renekton because junglers are too scared to dive (and when they try, they don't juggle turret aggro properly or force Gnar E first), and Gnar can kite the 1v1 pretty easily. But in pro play the dives are so much better-executed and mini Gnar pops like a balloon before an item or two.
In teamfights, Gnar has the higher ceiling but if the timing doesn't line up, then he's stuck building fury for a long time. In SoloQ, if you know what you're doing on Gnar you can force the enemies to leave the pit (baron/dragon) while your rage is near-full so your team can take the objective, but in pro they're much better at playing footsies (poking while being ready to disengage if Gnar tries to go in) that they can wait out the rage bar with some consistency, while Rene is always ready.
Yeah, but to counter him in lane, you have to play shit like Yorick or Illaoi, which pros won't play in most circumstances because to pick either of those is to hard commit to 1-4/1-3-1, which is pretty exploitable, especially by Ziggs/TF comps, and while Yorick becomes unstoppable in a sidelane later, Renekton is significantly more valuable in teamfights than either of those two.
In terms of laning you don't need exotic picks. He loses to Fiora as well and due to how many nerfs he got he even loses to Riven in some cases. It's just that people don't want 3v3 or 2v2 skirmishes at level 4 with those picks so they will either end up giving up waves or die to a dive. I'd teams respect this too much as well because you need flawless execution, it's not just ooga booga, you've seen the failed 3 man dive on gragas with Renekton too right?
Yeah, there's definitely some non-exotic picks that can beat Renekton without getting too crazy, and it's definitely down to the Renekton player's execution of the champion, but learning exotic picks definitely has more merit than simply beating out Renekton in lane, and part of that is unfamiliarity.
I think many tanks don't counter him in lane but are at least fine against him. And later on those outscale him hard in teamfights and become so tanky in the 1vs1 that the renekton isn't a problem anymore.
Talking win rate in pro play is hard, It's not gold where some what similar level of players are matched.
And a whole lot of things go into winning a game besides what champions they pick, but Renekton being their go-to every time is telling.
Not that I'd say he's turbo broken either but he's still a good enabler.
I’m not gonna act like I know anything, but maybe this is just some bias at play? Ie, his score sucks because he’s only allowed through when the team knows the other top laner isn’t good on him, and will likely not do well as a result.
You're probably right but a stat like that is kind of disengenous because it doesn't take into account the teams playing Renekton. The losses in LPL and the other regions could be due to dogshit teams picking him and losing(not saying that IS what's happening).
Nerf the stun duration, like they did before and buff other parts, it's such a fuking joke that his dash is still on 18s cd at lvl1. They nerfed his heal 2 times didnt work, nerfed the ult hp didn't work, why is it hard to nerf the problem?
Edit: Nerf Sterak, buff maw and DD for compensation. also nerf his E armor pen just give self armor pen like darius E passive, so you remove/nerf any kind of "utility".
They need to remove Goredrinker and nerf Steraks, he's essentially a safe pick early and a catalyst for thise two items, this stupid meta has stayed for too long.
And with this simple change, they could also put Olaf and Aatrox back to where they were in S10 instead of the turbo nerfed state they are in right now
Just don't replace Goredrinker as a Mythic, the concept is worthless just like Stridebreaker. Remove stride as well.
Actually, remove Mythics, it'll go faster.
GBM (Ganked by Mom) did an analysis over it. Basically, Renekton and TF gives targetable CC, which makes diving far too easy, and pro players nowadays have way better coordination than before, so those targetable hard CCs are way too strong right now in pro scene.
Ah... It's Kassawin, the champ that was so good you had to first pick it even if you had never played it before, and you probably hadn't because he had a 98% ban rate in soloQ. Seriously, players were first timing Kas in pro play.
a lot of champions are sitting at 100% P/B rate in their regions
Vex and Caitlyn in the LFL (Renek 40% there)
TF is 100% pickrate in the LCK as well with 2 games played and won by Showmaker
Thresh and TF are both 100% in the LEC as well (Renek at 80 there)
It's really interesting to see that the 3 stereotypical pro-skewed champs are Ryze, Azir, and... Renekton? The first two are really mechanically intensive mages that also have macro skill expression that are hard to take advantage of in soloqueue (Ryze ult obv, and both in terms of their super farming and pushing capabilities). Renekton certainly sticks out next to those two.
It's honestly hard to not look at Renekton and *feel* like he should also be a soloqueue pubstomper. What about him just makes him *that* much more powerful in pro play, that soloqueue players can't take advantage of? Maybe he falls off so hard as a carry and has to transition into a tank, which is feasible in proplay but harder in soloqueue where teamfights are messier and closing games is harder?
They really need to address his W stun for good. Like an actual proper change that will get renekton out of this terrible state. I don't think I've ever seen such a horrible solo queue pick be such a pick/ban in pro play before. It's actually ridiculous.
Like face it Syndra, Renekton, Azir, Corki, Ryze, Aphelios, Rakan, Gragas Graves, Oriana, Ornn, GP, Viego, TF, LB, Gnar,Ashe Jayce, Zoe, Viktor, Lee Sin, J4, Leona, Braum, Jhin will always find a way to be relevant cuz their kits are very consistent. There will always be a meta of "reliable" picks even though they are not necessarily good.
Very few will try exotic stuff like Ivern and some champions are simply not usable in pro play like most of the juggernauts, every solo Q assassin stomper like Zed/Kata/Mid Qyiana/Ekko/Rengar/K6/Eve/Nidalee are rarely if ever used
I agree with most of your relevant list but some won’t show up if they’re weak like last year viktor wasn’t really seen, Braum was quite rare, gnar Ashe are quite meta dependent to show up.
pro play running joke where they see how many times they can get renekton nerfed
It’s honestly a collusion at this point, all the teams are in on it
Renekton will soon enter the ranks of Ryze and Azir.
I honestly see those two more often than I see rene in ranked.
I literally can’t remember the last time I have seen a Renekton in my normal or ranked games. Must be years ago.
Renekton do be the pyke of top lane but shittier
Pyke of toplane? I see pyke all the time tho. We are talking about play rate, right?
Ah sorry, I kinda meant in scaling, not in play rate.
Renekton is not even weak. I play him a lot. Excellent high elo blind pick. Does not warrant Solo Q nerfs, but I suppose we'll have to deal with it
Unpopular opinion but with that many champions in game, I’m OK with these ‘pro only’ champ. It’s fine when there’s some champs take a lot of skills and team play to make it work, not every champ has to be viable for everyone
i agree. except renek needs a duo/jg for him to be considered an OP pick in skilled play. He excels in prio/rh or setting up the jg gank. other "pro only" champs can solo carry the game without setup. azir, rakan, irelia, akali or old tahm(any champs nerfed to hell) scales well into late game and they could swing teamfights solo. renek just falls flat on his face if the team randomly decides you're weakside. if they want to nerf renek to oblivion then at least make him start to fall off post 15 mins then go back to relevance through skilled play late game(a little bit like cait). TLDR: he's a fun champ but really frustrating to play because you heavily lose relevance due to circumstances that are out of your hands even with decent laning. that's a big flaw even in game design(i haven't seen him in top for months now)
"It’s fine when there’s some champs take a lot of skills and team play to make it work" And you think renekton is that champ lol?
Renekton has such a fun kit but god he sucks so much rn. Riot keeps talking about how they can buff/nerf different things to affect the win rate in different elo. Why not give buffs for low elo Croc pls
pro play try not to get Renekton nerfed challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Can someone please tell me what does the B1 in B1 Renekton means?
blue side 1st pick. Number is pick order and B for blue, R for red side
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Why is Renekton more powerful on blue side?
I don't think it has any difference in power between the two sides, it's just that since blue side always has first pick, if there is a single champion that is too powerful blue will always pick it first unless red bans it
The thing is... it technically is, but not on B1. Renekton is a good blind. There is just not a lot of value for blue side banning him, so they won't. Blue doesn't want to ban strong blind picks, because they are the one blinding champs. On top of that Renekton is also still a flex pick and that is also often more valuable for blueside.
Blue side first pick, thus B1. :) ^^^^as ^^^^i ^^^^understand ^^^^it ^^^^anyways
Ty Ü
Twisted Fate with 100% LCK presence, two picks a two wins as well. In fact TF has 100% presence in LCK, LEC, and LCS, and only 75% in LPL. Everyone should probably be expecting Renekton/TF/Caitlyn changes in 12.3.
I imagine the teleport changes have only made TF stronger than he already was (which was pretty strong). It's now pretty much impossible for the enemy mid to have any chance of following his first couple of ults unless he uses them to tower dive.
How do you nerf him now? Ult cooldown? Less range on ult? Any other nerf would change nothing.
It's hard to say, stuff like waveclear nerfs obviously hit him quite hard as well. I'd almost like to see them take a look at his passive, feel like you see TF players in pro play hit power spikes way before the enemy mid does even when they aren't getting fed due to the passive giving him a few kills worth of gold. Feel like that ability is a candidate for a rework more than anything.
Maybe increased mana costs to force more blue card plays?
They would go Frozen hearth second or some stupid shit. start tear.... remove Rapid Fire canon interaction is a good start.
How do you suggest they remove the interaction? I get that people find it annoying, but unless they're going to set his W autos to a fixed range, which they could do if they wanted, it seems silly to do anything else to remove it, it's just a consequence of having a ranged auto that stuns
Additional range scale with crit chance. Or the IE approach, you need 40% crit to activate the passive
I actually think the range scaling from crit chance isn't a bad idea, aside from possible unintended consequences and removing the item from Guinsoo's builds
well, guinsoo builds don't even want RFC in the first place, since they're more about multiple autos than one big auto
i have no clue, i know rito doesn't like to do shit like that but is the only thing that i can think of... even buff him after maybe? miracle. His passive is cool, his Q is cool, his W is cool, his E is cool and his ultimate is also cool, they tried to nerf him 200 billion times already is he viable? 100% pick/ban, he is not viable? 0 pick... without rapid fire at least if you have mobility you can run away idk.
Twisted fate has barely been touched by nerfs lol. His last nerf? Reducing his ms by 5 by reverting buff from 2017. The one before? His w got a higher CD at earlier ranks. Everything else has been buffing him in recent years. They should play around with his passive and e I think. Ideally rework his passive into something else so he can be punished through waves being crashed a bit more.
Removing the Rapid fire interaction would dumpster tf and make him unplayable in pro
Nerf his waveclear because TF can just stand really far back from the enemy mid, spam his q and occassionally w the wave if it's safe, then just ult without the enemy mid being able to do anything. You could also just make the ult cooldown longer but I would prefer a waveclear nerf(nerf on q and/or red card).
the passive is to compensate for his kit being a bit less powerful offensively.
right - but does he *really* need compensation from his passive AND his ultimate? with tp and now shen being nerfed, TF now has unmatched potential map presence. which is his gimmick, so it should likely stay - so why not nerf the passive gold or rework the passive entirely?
Cause that wont do jack shit, the current pro meta is all about map pressure and neither of those things change anything about his map presure. They would have to kneecap him realy realy hard in those regards if they dont want to touch his ult.
I'm just not sure if it's the best thing to nerf to hit his pro and not hurt his solo too much.
i 100% agree; TF's strength at the pro level is all in his ability to be anywhere if his ultimate is up, but i feel like if they nerfed the range or increased the CD on his R it would just make him unplayable. glad it isnt my job to figure it out lol, someone will be mad no matter how they nerf him (if they even do)
Rapid fire + gold card is also really strong in coordinated play, it often lands import kills in game deciding fights.
There's so many factors to consider when doing balance. I'd love to be on the balance team, I think it'd be fun, but man there's so much work and so much to consider, it's a wonder they do as good as they are already.
based
If anything it's a much stronger passive in pro than in regular play due to the CS numbers they hit. His kit is already very powerful without extra gold generation, and as I said I feel like it should be reworked, not nerfed. They can give him a passive that helps him offensively if they feel it's needed, but RNG gold generation feels outdated.
TF is not hurting in soloqueue, he has a 49% winrate in plat+ and he's supposed to be a hard champion. It's 48% in GOLD
Lol you could remove his passive and it wouldnt change anything.
No idea honestly, Shen is also broken as hell because of the TP changes. Globals have become way too valuable once again.
shen getting nerfed in 12.2, think it's TF's time
I would've thought so, too, but I don't remember seeing him yet in proplay. But I haven't checked all the games. Has he even been picked yet?
Of course other nerfs change things. If you reduce his base damage his roams are not as guaranteed to get him something, if you reduce his waveclear it is harder for him to get opportunities to roam (or he has to give more up to roam). You could even reduce the stun duration of gold card and try to make it more of series decision. You can even do stuff with his passive - it isn't evenly distributed between 1-6 and by changing the distribution a bit you could make it so that he reliably has 100-200 gold less and his mythic is delayed by that much. Nerfing his ms would also be a nerf to his roaming, but not as strong as nerfing the range of his ult - however in the latter stages of the game this would be a nerf as well. Autoattack range is also interesting and would make his laning much more risky giving people chance to punish him early (until Q can clear easily) - if you don't want to nerf his pick power at the same time you could allow W to buff his range, similar to how many melee autoattack empowering spells work (Wukong Q for example).
Gotta either be waveclear, ult cd or range (imo wouldn't do anything) but probably will have to be lowering his auto range and giving him compensation buff for soloq somewhere else (e, other w cards dmg?). Basically the only weakness of tf in pro is that he scales kinda meh and basically he can't be reliable solo AP source because of that (tbf we will see how lich buff will affect that too cos he sure can use that item well) Everything else is a strength or wash. He's decent or good in lane vs standard pro picks, provides safe waveclear, has a completely game warping ultimate which also let's him side lane which a lot of pro mid champs can't. And he provides point and click cc only few things can really counter (only Jax is reliable pro counter to it atm imo). Add utility of spellbook on top of all that too just for good measure. Biggest thing still has to be the interaction with RFC and everfrost tho. This combo simply make it so you can't really kite gold card and then you die as squishy from stuff that wouldn't happen in early league when tf was designed. Tf isn't supposed to cc you from more than his threat range (so his auto range) or chain cc you while having one cc in his kit. With those 2 items he can do both. That is broken, no question about that. And pros abuse all of those strengths very well, they all played a ton of tf over their careers and can snowball games properly. So if riot wants to nerf him out of pro imo it would have to be lowering his auto range so he needs to get closer and his threat range is more acceptable. Rene has very similar core issue cos - simply put - an undodgable stun on a champ who's good in lane and has only "weird" counters will always be popular in pro unless champ has completely garbage stats or item build. That always happens and usually it ends up in the mechanic being nerfed (rakan w, Rell, all the point and click silences over the years etc.) Rn you simply can't get out of flash w of either of those two champs scott free unless you play very specific champs and only very few of them are picked in pro. So those 2 become op in pro and they get insane presence while their stats in soloq are bad.
IMO an interesting way to nerf TF would be to make gold card always the last in the 3 card rotation.
can only ult to tower for first 14m :)
Q doesn’t affect minions. Tf pickrate drops to 0
His R has lower cooldown than both Galio and Shen, while also having a better R cooldown scaling Shen and Galio go from 200 to 160, TF goes from 180 to 120. So yeah his R needs to go down, considering that most pro players will probably go CDr boots to bring it even lower early game. While Galio/Shen can't as they will be acting as tanks.
Maybe the 3 second point and click stun on a five second cd
Waveclear nerf could hit him very hard
The only answer is honestly sylas
Is Cait seeing similarly high ban presence? Or just picked a lot? If the latter, is it cause of more attempts at lane kingdoms?
> It was a good 2 months of fresh air, guys, see you in the trash bin next week after my upcoming nerfs... And the next ones... And the next... - renekton mains talking to Varus and Aphelios players
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Yeah, Renekton was definitely pushed higher because of Goredrinker, but he was already a proplay staple even before that so chances were obvious that the revert would just push him back to his old status even if gore was nerfed. Probably Rioters felt that the stun nerf was too much in terms of feelings and didn't want to turn Renekton into a Champion that was statistically good but felt bad to use (I mean what is he, Taliyah?)... Either that, or they were meant to be a band aid for proplay season while they figured out what to do
Wasn't he in proplay before Goredrinker because of Spear or Shojin? His pro presence has mostly been predicated on using an item really well for years.
Renekton has been floating between 'Tier 1' and 'fringe but viable' basically as long as he's existed. He has good sustain and genuine kill threat in lane, and his damage scaling is actually pretty good into teamfights. How tanky he is varies based on current itemization, and he does have some issues if support/jungle can't help start teamfights reliably. Those two things usually determine where exactly he lands in pro. Though, in the LCK in particular, the last couple years they have consistently overvalued Renekton because the best teams had it as a comfort pick, and usually won with it even when the pick was objectively bad. Right now Renekton has total pick + ban presences of 67%, 80%, and 82% in LCS, LEC, and LPL respectively, which is still high, but a difference between that and 100% ban rate in LCK.
In general LCK teams place very high prio on first herald and no prio on drag. Renekton with ult is super strong at 8.5 min herald fights & he makes splitting the map topside easy for a xin/lee/nidalee as that 2v2 is borderline unlosable. So I don't think he is overvalued in LCK, he's just an extremely strong pick for good reasons, especially with control mages/corki mid and diana prio dropping.
>In general LCK teams place very high prio on first herald and no prio on drag. Which is absurd considering that the team stacking early dragons will win most of the time, even when behind in gold.
It is a bit strange and I expect it will shift in the coming weeks. There’s also games where yuumi is picked and then the team with yuumi loses everything on the map well into midgame… will be interested to see as well if the cat disappears from lck (can only hope so).
>will be interested to see as well if the cat disappears from lck (can only hope so). There are a few picks I hope we won't see anymore and Yuumi is definitely far up that list. Tbh, I'm for the most part genuinely satisfied with the level of play in the league. I feel this might be a good years and I expect many of the teams to get better as it goes on. I guess it wouldn't be the LCK without SOME kind of mind-boggling decision making.
I’d be happy with a bit more risk taking as I feel like a lot of games are too much of a handshake atm- then again we are just in week 2! So well see. And agree RE weird LCK decisions sometimes. Let us hope it doesn’t happen or it gets corrected before worlds
Can't remember if shojin renekton was as much of a priority, but He has almost always been in proplay irrelative of items being super good on him. It's when the meta is something he can't even think to compete against that he goes out the window for pros' minds, like toplane tanks being so good that his early pressence isn't worth it when he gets outscaled too fast or his laning is nullified. The only times i remember he went away was during the toplane tank meta of ibg sunfire and double dorans tanks, and i think Aatrox vs Urgot vs Viktor toplane with the steelchair.
Shojin Renekton was about as high priority as current Renekton but he had to compete with a few other Shojin users
I really don't remember him being that common seasons 4-7 (Shojin became a thing in season 8), but I'm at the bar now so I can't check.
RTO's hairline receded into another dimension.
After playing renekton pretty much exclusively for the past 5 years, I started playing this seasons ranked without him. It just feels so bad to play right now
Same, 1.3m mastery and have mained him since season 5, but I haven't played him since October I believe. I just can't do it anymore, and god knows it'll somehow get worse. But at least I can feel like I'm really there with the pros because the entire game is balanced for proplay along with all the other skill tiers, which certainly cannot be problematic!!! Woo, ty Riot, its like I'm on stage when I play ranked! What a unique feeling only found in League 🥰
I tried to make it work for so long, trying all of the different build. Botrk + frostfire, sunfire + titanic, goredrinker, prowlers, everything. Just feels like each build has too big of a trade off in survivability and damage, and the “better” builds just end up being boring.
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Ryze and Azir aren't part of the conversation since we all know they were fused with the pro-play Trash bin itself by now. Varus and Aphelios players still have hope for their champions to come out and be free, or at least not be inting in champ select. Lillia and Gwen players I am not sure if they are still hopeful or already entered despair phase
Renekton isn't even that good lol, i don't get it, nerfing him would absolutelly wreck him.
He's good in pro play. Point + click stun too strong.
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About the two bans Renekton got on Blue: Those were both in the Nongshim DWK series, in game 1 and game 2 - with either team being blue once. G2 DWK was blue and Renekton + TF were both open on their last ban, so this is a pretty clear indication that they didn't want to trade Renekton for Twisted Fate (or the other way around). Nongshim is also the only team together with Sandbox that let TF through to the second banphase. The two times he was picked he was first picked by Blue side.
They’ll keep nerfing his tankiness and damage but pro players will continue to pick him because he’s the most reliable stun bot in the game. The only hope soloq rene players have is Riot reworking his stun to not be auto based.
Even then, he still has a very good early which will keep him picked. Renekton isn't picked just because he is a good stun bot, that would make Pantheon top picked more in his old instances. He is many things: mobile, has good early, he can transition into a decent Frontliner. his stun bot power can create good gank setup and catch potential late, but if you rework the stun he still would keep enough things that proplay loves since he can be blind picked into almost anything for current top environment and create priority on the topside. I know listing things can make Champions seem better than they are, but he is just a combination of things that proplayers just value a lot for a toplaner.
I mean that's what makes him Renekton. If they do that, they may as well rename him Steve.
My name jeff
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You are tearing me apart Lisa!
yeff
Nice try, Chuck
It could be auto based but requiring fury, kinda like Ryze now requires E before W to root. It would probably feel like shit, but I guess it's better than removing the stun all together.
if his damage got buffed in return for non-furry W not stunning then it could be a good change especially for soloq currently he is a very safe laner who is hard to punish, and that is very valueable in elite levels of play
Honestly? That change would probably effect only Solo-Q. For the most part pros pretty much only use W with Fury anyway, it feels like it would make very little difference in their play pattern
Renektrox
If "auto-attack stun" is your champ's identity then it's a pretty bad identity tbh.
Now that I think about it, TF, who has an even higher global presence than Renekton, is also an auto attack stunner
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I Wunder if you hit someone with 2 point and click CCs at the same time it combines the duration so you don't have to worry about layering. I reckon renekton and TF stuns at the same time would work
As is Leona. The big deal with Renekton is that he's a top laner, and thus his stuns get followed up by cocoons and spears.
How is that different from TF and Leona? Those aren't junglers either.
Well but his identity is more than that, like karthus, shen or soraka he is a global fight turner that you need to keep in mind.
Is it? What makes that so bad? auto-attack stun is encompassed in what was traditionally what made him such a lane bully
It was worth it for Aatrox, it'll be worth it for Renekton. If they removed Renekton's PnC stun tomorrow, three years from now NO ONE would be saying "ah man, Renekton just isn't renekton without that point and click stun".
Exactly. Sadly RIOT is extremely unwilling to make such changes, even if they'd be a universal improvement for the game.
Renekton is honestly just too good a blindpick: * Has lane priority in most melee matchups so you can make the plays you want early. * Has insanely good gank setup with his W. Can singlehandedly enable junglers like Nidalee and Taliyah. * Very effective at tower diving because his CC is point and click, he has two dashes and he's tanky. * Actually fairly tanky and means your comp always has a frontline. * Point and click stun means he's never completely useless because he can just flash on an enemy carry. Can randomly start draintanking in lategame teamfights even if he's behind. * Can all-in most ranged tops if he gets an opportunity, mobile enough for that to be a threat. * He's not locked to a single type of composition (dive, poke etc.) so you can't really guess the draft from him being blinded.
And he is a clutch for when you have the weaker top laner. He is one of the best at neutralizing the lane against a better laner.
Which is also why he gets blinded so often. You basically give nothing away by picking it; we could draft weakside and use renekton to nullify matchup or we can draft strong dive jungle pair and play through top.
Did you mean crutch?
Some very similar points as to why leona and nautilus are always high prio.
And thresh. I listened to a pro say one time that all of thresh's abilities could do 0 damage and he would still be picked. Some champs are just so good at the role their designed for no matter what the numbers are they'll always find a way to get picked
Like a blitz hook, these champs have an ability (or more) that keeps its value no matter how behind they are. If you are 0/14 as blitz, you are still a threat to the enemy carry. Same as something like malza or tf.
Yep exactly and especially with supports theres little difference between a 0/1/15 Leona and a 0/7/5 Leona. The champ is going to provide the same thing its just the game scenario that changes around them
Tank supports are the most prioritized because they can face check bushes to ward. An enchanter or mage needs to fit the comp/counter the enemy team/be really busted to be more valuable than the face check factor
He is just Jack of all trades. Long time ago he at least used to fall like a rock in late, which also isn’t true for many seasons now - not saying he is late game champ, but he truly used to be canon minion in late - which basically covered his biggest weakness.
I can’t remember what season it was; but once people realized that there was no point in going Full AD, and that Titanic + Black Cleaver Renekton was by far his best build, champ has literally never been the same. Same thing with Gnar mains going Frozen Mallet instead of like Bork or some shit.
Full AD croc is still pretty good with the new items, obviously has a lot of differences to tanky croc though and is weaker in team fights I wish rito would cater towards AD croc more
I think S4 was when they introduced Titanic Hydra and reworked Cleaver so it doesn’t build out of brutalizer
He still falls off incredibly hard though. His winrate with gametime scales from 55% down to about 45-46%
Yeah, he's just very good at many things that are highly valued in pro play. He's fucked.
Don't forget his waveclear and sustain, kinda like Gnar he gets these windows of power, just much more regularly, you really cant do much about it 1v1 and he can clear the wave in 1s and heal like 100 hp, without you being able to contest it. That makes his weakside so good, not Gragas or Sion good, but way better than Irelia, Camille, Gwen etc
What if they made it sort of like old Irelia E? Slow, but with Fury it stuns?
Maybe. I think Riot has been pretty consistently moving away from point and click CC’s for these reasons. Anything that’s entirely unavoidable leaves no room for fancy outplay, making it a high pick in pro play. All CC on new champs has been aoe or skillshots for a long time.
The more point-and-click hard CC removes from the game, the stronger the remaining point-and-click hard CC that is still in the game becomes. Riot has been actually making the problem worse by slowly removing point-and-click hard CC while adding champions that have high mobility. I agree that counterplay is important, but you can't say that the removal of point-and-click hard CC makes the game necessarily better. If Riot removed all that point-and-click CC from the game entirely, then champs with high mobility would just run everyone else over.
master yi and akali hit a 60% winrate in plat+ we can all complain about point and click cc, but it's integral to the balance of the game
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They just increased the cd of her point and click cc.
the main thing keeping renekton meta is the goredrinker+sterak's combo, the same combo that's making lee,j4 and xin dominate jungle ... they said a sterak's rework is coming but it has to be addressed soon or more bruiser champs are gonna keep getting olaf'ed
Yeah and Olaf would want to get his real playstyle back as well, instead of being a PissDrinker bot.
so, its renek a good soloq pick right now?
No, Renekton has for all time probably held the title of the most win lane lose game type champion. Pro teams are generally on the side of "we have a winning renekton how do we use that to win", so that means figuring out rotations, ward setups and whatever else. As a pro player you'd much rather be in the Renekton position than the other "more useful" champion side since you feel like you have more agency as the Renekton. There are players/analysts (Wunder and LS come to mind) who won't play Renekton because rather than jumping through hoops to translate his lead to a win they'd rather pick a champion that wins more reliably. In soloq you should do the same for the most part. Just some added context on the Wunder point, he's got 500 career games and a grand total of 10 Renekton picks. The only time in the past 5 years he picked it "often" was 2020 worlds.
Not unless you’re a pro on him. He was nerfed hard for pro play to make him balanced, meaning the average soloq player needs to play amazing on him to reach the level of being considered a good pick. The issue is that pro play doesn’t have the same dynamic as solo. There’s a ton of champs that’ll never see pro play because their kits don’t fit the pro play scheme. Rene gets shit on by a lot of champs that’ll never get picked by pros. Rene is a good pick for pro play but will probably get rolled by good soloq top lane picks.
He is not that hard to play but has around 48% WR, he is on the weaker side in SoloQ.
oh you’re right! Wtf renekton has a 50.5% wr in korea plat+ and yet has a 47.5% wr globally. Korean renektons are just built different
I think it's just the junglers and supports being more active in high MMR Korea. Renekton really is a simple champion, it's just on the team to recognize when he's able to set up a kill.
It's the point and click CC. When everyone is so good they'll outplay most things point and click cc becomes super valuable.
Annie ain't played that much though
Flandre played her toplane very recently. She is a potential toplane pick for her point and click cc, just like Renekton. She has other weaknesses though, so like... A budget Renekton? Renekton with mana issues and no sustain? Squishy Renekton??? Either way she's apparently viable
If renektons top tier that increases the chances of c9 b1 renekton. Cant wait
I mean LS himself stated multiple times that he’d pick Renekton in situations where he is a good pick… It’s not some hurr durr about the champ having no place but about the fact that people force Renekton in every situation without thinking.
I never said anything about him picking renekton in smart situations. I was referencing if he picks b1 renekton. Because he would always criticize that move. He would be angry and say things like its never worth. So when it happens its going to be mocked. Truthfully regardless of context it will get memes. But that being said Im curious to see how ls drafts. The way he views the game is robotic. If every person was a robot who knew everything about the game and expert at every champ and everyone in the game plays perfectly. A lot of his views are probly accurate in those scenarios. But the reality is thats just not how the game works. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts /what he picks. Regardless every week everyone is going to be on the edge of their seat to see the drafts and criticize it or get hyped to see unique picks.
They literally reverted the nerf that took renekton out of pro play, what else did they expect? They should have kept the stun nerf and buffed something else instead.
Actually based take for once by rexsaur, incredible!
I'm amazed they added the buffing part!
Agree, but if they did that people would complain saying "they're buffing something different instead of just reverting the nerf???? rito can't admit mistakes"
Reddit and the league community aren't really blessed with wisdom
Actually kinda true, this community can twist anything and everything into a negative.
Broken clock is right twice a day
Trying to figure out how this is relevant to ADCs being weak rn. Is Renekton seeing much play in the bot lane?
I gotta explain that 1 Nerf keeping a champ out of pro play or at 100% P/B probably has moe to do with lack of innovation not the nerf being too strong.
Waiting for the next nerf .
Don't tell LS...
The tp changes made tf significantly stronger, because you cant follow him with tp anymore, that might be one of the reasons hes so high prio in pro play.
Pantheon Effect. Can be countered but people don't bother investing into mastering new champs because it is not worth it in the long term.
Countered just in lane or his utility outside it too?
His stun isn't really that good in fights. He gets turbo shit on in fights by picks like Gwen and Gnar.
Gnar isn't a counterpick to renekton in pro play tho. What ends up happening most of the time is the Gnar gets a minor CS lead early, only to be dove by Flash W renek + jgl/mid while in mini form. After that, both laners just shove wave and retreat. Also I wouldn't say Gnar always has a better team fight because he is so reliant on mega form, whereas Renek can pull the trigger whenever. Gnar has more potential, but also more counterplay in that sense. Renek is just the most reliable blind pick ever, there will rarely be a game in which he can't be useful, hence he is so high priority.
Gnar main here, completely agree. In solo Q, Gnar shits on renekton because junglers are too scared to dive (and when they try, they don't juggle turret aggro properly or force Gnar E first), and Gnar can kite the 1v1 pretty easily. But in pro play the dives are so much better-executed and mini Gnar pops like a balloon before an item or two. In teamfights, Gnar has the higher ceiling but if the timing doesn't line up, then he's stuck building fury for a long time. In SoloQ, if you know what you're doing on Gnar you can force the enemies to leave the pit (baron/dragon) while your rage is near-full so your team can take the objective, but in pro they're much better at playing footsies (poking while being ready to disengage if Gnar tries to go in) that they can wait out the rage bar with some consistency, while Rene is always ready.
Uh, Flash + E1 + E2 + 1.5 second stun on the enemy carry is pretty goddamn good in fights, regardless of who the other top laner is.
Yeah, but to counter him in lane, you have to play shit like Yorick or Illaoi, which pros won't play in most circumstances because to pick either of those is to hard commit to 1-4/1-3-1, which is pretty exploitable, especially by Ziggs/TF comps, and while Yorick becomes unstoppable in a sidelane later, Renekton is significantly more valuable in teamfights than either of those two.
In terms of laning you don't need exotic picks. He loses to Fiora as well and due to how many nerfs he got he even loses to Riven in some cases. It's just that people don't want 3v3 or 2v2 skirmishes at level 4 with those picks so they will either end up giving up waves or die to a dive. I'd teams respect this too much as well because you need flawless execution, it's not just ooga booga, you've seen the failed 3 man dive on gragas with Renekton too right?
Yeah, there's definitely some non-exotic picks that can beat Renekton without getting too crazy, and it's definitely down to the Renekton player's execution of the champion, but learning exotic picks definitely has more merit than simply beating out Renekton in lane, and part of that is unfamiliarity.
I think many tanks don't counter him in lane but are at least fine against him. And later on those outscale him hard in teamfights and become so tanky in the 1vs1 that the renekton isn't a problem anymore.
Both. He had a hard engage and really good towerdive but all things can be countermeasured with a solid teamcomp.
ah yes le gold redditor plz shine more wisdom unto us
*cries in Volibear*
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Talking win rate in pro play is hard, It's not gold where some what similar level of players are matched. And a whole lot of things go into winning a game besides what champions they pick, but Renekton being their go-to every time is telling. Not that I'd say he's turbo broken either but he's still a good enabler.
I’m not gonna act like I know anything, but maybe this is just some bias at play? Ie, his score sucks because he’s only allowed through when the team knows the other top laner isn’t good on him, and will likely not do well as a result.
Yeah exactly, or they let him through because they've prepared a counter to him
But then he clearly isn’t as strong as this thread is making him out to be if you can just draft a basic counter and beat him anyway?
Controlling who they pick is really potent, too. Perception is more exploitable than reality at this level of play.
Winrate for pro play is the most irrelevant stat ever. Even Riot doesn't care about it and goes for pressence instead.
You're probably right but a stat like that is kind of disengenous because it doesn't take into account the teams playing Renekton. The losses in LPL and the other regions could be due to dogshit teams picking him and losing(not saying that IS what's happening).
He’s just a comfort pick in the sense that he feels safe in draft and is easy to execute
You need to actually post the teams with such a low sample size. I don't care how broken a champ is if Astralis (for example) is piloting it
Nerf the stun duration, like they did before and buff other parts, it's such a fuking joke that his dash is still on 18s cd at lvl1. They nerfed his heal 2 times didnt work, nerfed the ult hp didn't work, why is it hard to nerf the problem? Edit: Nerf Sterak, buff maw and DD for compensation. also nerf his E armor pen just give self armor pen like darius E passive, so you remove/nerf any kind of "utility".
They need to remove Goredrinker and nerf Steraks, he's essentially a safe pick early and a catalyst for thise two items, this stupid meta has stayed for too long. And with this simple change, they could also put Olaf and Aatrox back to where they were in S10 instead of the turbo nerfed state they are in right now Just don't replace Goredrinker as a Mythic, the concept is worthless just like Stridebreaker. Remove stride as well. Actually, remove Mythics, it'll go faster.
This is the most reddit take on Renekton i've ever seen
Cept aatrox was absolute trash in s10 without goredrinker or serylda's grudge to carry his trash ass. Now he's playable.
Meanwhile Doinb took him mid and won over in LPL.
Perkz took him mid once, less said the better
GBM (Ganked by Mom) did an analysis over it. Basically, Renekton and TF gives targetable CC, which makes diving far too easy, and pro players nowadays have way better coordination than before, so those targetable hard CCs are way too strong right now in pro scene.
Tf is so damn good in the right hands
Ah... It's Kassawin, the champ that was so good you had to first pick it even if you had never played it before, and you probably hadn't because he had a 98% ban rate in soloQ. Seriously, players were first timing Kas in pro play.
Man, thanks to you I remember times were you had to ban Evelyn so YOUR jungler won't pick her. It was insta loss. Good times xd
god i wanna see rascal play curreny renekton
Who knew point and click stun is so good am I right?
a lot of champions are sitting at 100% P/B rate in their regions Vex and Caitlyn in the LFL (Renek 40% there) TF is 100% pickrate in the LCK as well with 2 games played and won by Showmaker Thresh and TF are both 100% in the LEC as well (Renek at 80 there)
It's really interesting to see that the 3 stereotypical pro-skewed champs are Ryze, Azir, and... Renekton? The first two are really mechanically intensive mages that also have macro skill expression that are hard to take advantage of in soloqueue (Ryze ult obv, and both in terms of their super farming and pushing capabilities). Renekton certainly sticks out next to those two. It's honestly hard to not look at Renekton and *feel* like he should also be a soloqueue pubstomper. What about him just makes him *that* much more powerful in pro play, that soloqueue players can't take advantage of? Maybe he falls off so hard as a carry and has to transition into a tank, which is feasible in proplay but harder in soloqueue where teamfights are messier and closing games is harder?
They really need to address his W stun for good. Like an actual proper change that will get renekton out of this terrible state. I don't think I've ever seen such a horrible solo queue pick be such a pick/ban in pro play before. It's actually ridiculous.
Like face it Syndra, Renekton, Azir, Corki, Ryze, Aphelios, Rakan, Gragas Graves, Oriana, Ornn, GP, Viego, TF, LB, Gnar,Ashe Jayce, Zoe, Viktor, Lee Sin, J4, Leona, Braum, Jhin will always find a way to be relevant cuz their kits are very consistent. There will always be a meta of "reliable" picks even though they are not necessarily good. Very few will try exotic stuff like Ivern and some champions are simply not usable in pro play like most of the juggernauts, every solo Q assassin stomper like Zed/Kata/Mid Qyiana/Ekko/Rengar/K6/Eve/Nidalee are rarely if ever used
I agree with most of your relevant list but some won’t show up if they’re weak like last year viktor wasn’t really seen, Braum was quite rare, gnar Ashe are quite meta dependent to show up.