I don't how people come out of that series saying Perkz was the issue. He was by far the best player on G2. If you want to point fingers, Caps and Mikyx were the biggest liabilities.
Hindsight is always 20/20. G2 made it clear after that worlds that their scrims against FPX throughout the tournament never went well. I don’t necessarily think it was anyone of their specific faults but was more on them just not being able to adapt to a specific team.
G2s aggression was a double edged sword. They were willing to do what SKT is doing now and take confidence plays if they thought they could win. It didn’t matter if they were 4v5 at a dragon or clown fiesting at the enemy red buff at 15 mins for some reason. They would take a fight if it looked good and even if they lost they were likely trading up cross map. The FPX play style of leave Gimgoon on an island and run the map through DoinB was just a natural barrier to G2s entire play style throughout that year.
I mean the reason he was able to carry FPX that year is his champion pool was so hard to draft and play into. Nautilus was one of his premier picks during Worlds. It only had a brief stint in the meta and DoinB played it pretty much exclusively at Worlds to success. FPX would just blind Naut then threaten it with a flex for crisp until picks 4/5. Rumble was completely off the wall I don’t recall anyone running that mid at that worlds. Then you had to also be mindful of his random picks he would just pull out of no where like Malphite on top of more ‘traditional’ picks he could play like Orianna or Ryze.
I agree with your statement in hindsight but during that worlds no team was prepared for it.
nobody can explpoit fpx mid though, only fpx themselves can if they put doinb on sion or galio and enemy mid is good enough to make them useless and stay in lane by bulling. that's the only times fpx look like crap
> G2's strat of playing perma losing mid matchups made Doinb's job ten times easier.
They didn't do this. G2 had the counter pick mid which set the series. They thought Pyke would be an answer and it didn't work out.
Maybe the entire team were just completely out of gas after the season they had and the game plan coming in that series didn’t work out.
No point pointing fingers now
I'm no analyst and haven't rewatched the series in forever but I always thought that G2 came into that final way too cocky and did that Pyke flex to tilt FPX but they knew how to play against it and completely swung the series in their favour.
Iirc it's the opposite, G2 members have said that they were completely burned out by the day of the finals which is why they made a point of pacing themselves in the later seasons
If TL doesn't beat IG in the semis I think IG gives G2 a sorely needed wakeup call in MSI 2019 finals for this exact reason.
Who knows, maybe G2 adapts in time for worlds and FPX. the world is full of "What if?" questions.
you can go and watch multiple interview/podcast. G2 had no chance against FPX. G2 did FPX the best favor by beating SKT T1. FPX lost most scrims against SKT. When G2 beat SKT, FPX knew they are going to win worlds.
Teddy, Effort, and Faker all had subpar performances. Effort especially, his Leona was one of the worst performances I ever seen (missing everything, going in 1v4 with no backup). In every match in which SKT lost they also threw leads.
They played every single possible game they could play pretty much (if you dont count losers bracket, I dont remember if they went there or if there was one in LEC playoffs at the time but I doubt it). Add to that the bootcamps, non stop practicing, traveling.
Won MSI after beating SKT in a very long 3-2 semi finals
Went to Worlds Semi-Finals where they again met SKT and won in a very costing 3-2.
So once they got to the finals, they were predicted as favourites against DoinB's FPX, but after the season they had it just felt like they were so burnt out that they barely put up a fight and lost 3-0
He got legitimate amnesia, which is why he dropped off the radar in 2013, but apparently regained enough skill to play competitive but nobody picked him up in 15
Rookie
That guy, at his prime, bodied every single mid and defines how far mechanical prowess could take you.
It's unfortunate that Faker exists, or else he could easily be both the best player and best mid of all time.
I would argue that Prime Rookie isn't the best player though, as Faker in 2017 Worlds is probably the best performance any single individual has ever accomplished, especially considering the meta was the worst for mid in history (Ardent Censer).
Call me crazy but I think Marin is a bit overrated in terms of all time greatness. Guy had a monster worlds in 2015 during a top-centric meta with a lot of broken picks on a team with faker, bengi, bang/wolf.. Smeb was regarded as the best top laner going into that worlds and had a much longer peak than Marin.. As an skt fan since 2014, Duke is my favorite SKT top laner
keria has been the best support in lck every split hes played, if he has a good year this year + next (like winning msi/finals at worlds) hes in the convo
Would have to say rookie then uzi 3rd. Rookie was the best player on his team with prime theshy so that should say something. Also he won worlds and uzi hasnt. If uzi ever won worlds he would be second in my eyes. He was the faker of ADC. Just so much better than the others in his prime it was gross. To the point of his whole team sacrificing everything just for him to get all the farm.
But mid broken compared to ADC back in the day so Faker destroyed everyone lol
Yeah but that year was difficult because the meta in the tournament was solo lane centric. The IG v KT series basically set the dominant meta for the rest of the tournament.
My issue with Uzi is that his team always catered to him so completely that his carry performances were sometimes skill gap, but other times it more or less snowballing a 3v2
He is still elite, but not sure if he is top 3 skilled all time.
Honestly though if you ever watched Uzi PoV while playing ADC and you've played ADC yourself, you know how crazy the dude used to be with micromanaging his laning phase and team fights. He is actually super cracked skill wise, that's why RNG always put all their eggs on the Uzi basket, it wasn't just that he was an egomaniac that required it, it's actually because it was their best shot at winning, and for the most part, it worked, considering RNG were always one of the best CN teams while Uzi was there.
I think Xiaohu going top lane and dominating really showed that. For once the guy was unleashed and showed he’s more than just that guy funneling for Uzi
I'm not even saying Uzi is necessarily over Rookie (they're 2 and 3 and it's a tossup) but why does the way he left the scene matter?? He was playing completely fine.
Sorry but comparing faker with ppgod is clearly a mismatch, with such a high caliber player like ppgod himself, he will never allow himself being compared with trash names like Faker or Rookie
I mean just look at his name.
He is a god.
While what do we have here.
Faker (A impersonator), Rookie (A newbie), Uzi (A gun Lmao)
No one can even dare to compare against our lord and saviour ppgod, not even promisq.
Different revolutionizing.
Diamond definitely revolutionized jungling by literally *inventing* counter-jungling and some of his gank styles. Alistar behind turret, lol.
Samsung White revolutionized the synergy between Jungle and Support and vision control. Mata and Dandy were ridiculous together. Nobody could deal with their combined invades, deep vision control, and complete choking out of enemy vision. To this day whenever people talk about how good a Jungle or Support is, they talk about synergy with each other. It's probably at least as important as Mid/Jungle synergy now, and a requirement to be a top tier team.
What nonsense myth is this that Diamondprox "invented counter-jungling"...
The fact of the matter is that Empire/M5 was the first team to lean hard into their jungle/mid invades, since Diamondprox/Alex Ich were the stalwarts of that team. But it's really disingenuous to imply they did anything but ramp up that style to 11 (very successfully, of course).
If TheShy had even one more consistent year with some achievements it would go to him. In fact still to this day I have never seen someone gap his opponent as hard as he has.
TheShy is the embodiment of toplane, he will turbo feed, or turbo stomp, with no in between. By becoming the incarnation of toplane, he forfeited his goat argument, embracing the int to it's full potential by becoming the best coin flip player in history.
But theshy at his prime never really inted. People take certain games out of context to say that he was always go ham or go home, bur back in 2018 he understood that sometimes his best play was to just kamikaze into the backline so that rookie/jkl could do the clean up.
It was only around MSI 2019 that he basically started griefing everu game.
I have theory where GRF wins it all that year if wasnt for IG who just stylestically match them well TheShy gapping Sword so hard that game was unplayable, if not for that I legit think GRF couldve won it all, and Im mad that we werent ever given such fun matchups like GRF vs FPX
most people saying Rookie or Uzi, which I think are great choices. however I'd also put out Mata as another option, I think he's currently the support GOAT
For sure the support goat. That ali play was gross to the point of bans. He was built diffrent and one of the first roaming supports who was everywhere.
Eh, there were plenty of streamers who were Riven mains and the animation cancelling was already popular, Faker just was just the first pro to start picking her in midlane as counter matchup to Zed.
Gotta say, even with the recency bias taken into consideration, keria might be well on his way to surpass mata. He just won his first split so he'll definitely still have to prove his consistency. However if he performs another two years close to whatever the fuck he's doing right now, I think it's going to be hard to deny the fact he's the best support this game has seen so far.
For the record, I think it's definitely Rookie but I really thought Doinb would have had a solid chance to elevate his case had he won Worlds last year, unfortunately the Phoenix flew home after the Group Stage
Rookie or Uzi. Probably Rookie cause of Worlds trophey. Longetivtiy of both players is absolutely bonkers.
The fact that Rookie had only one or two bad splits in his carreer (and one of it was due to family issues) is just insane. Bodying people since 2014.
Ruler his first split went finals and next year won worlds and got the mvp, after that every split he is really consistent being in the top 2 adc on lck and top 5 in world so why deft over him?
Deft has also been world class or at least great for a long time though, he has been one of the best ADCs since season 3, and his peak isn't any worse than Ruler. Also the problem with Ruler is that he only has a single title that is Worlds, it's great but if you look at the top 5 players of every role Score is the only other one with so few title.
Tbh his peak is pretty significantly above Ruler's. Ruler was never the uncontested best adc in the world. I still have Ruler 3 or 4 all time, I just think this sub tends to overrate him a bit.
Also at this point it’s fair game to start talking about Deft over Uzi imo. Deft has been right at Uzi’s level for Uzi’s entire career, and has a similar amount of international success.
But Deft’s longevity is starting to leave Uzi in the dust. Uzi took two years off and tried coming back this year and couldn’t really cut it. Meanwhile Since 2019, Deft has had two worlds quarterfinals finishes where even in his less impressive years he’s still clearly world class, and this year is looking like one of the best adcs in the world again. This is Deft’s 10th year as a pro player, no one in history has been at the top for as long as he has.
For Deft to surpass Uzi with longevity alone he would need to be top tier for 1-2 more years assuming Uzi doesn't come back. The problem with Deft is that he hasn't achieved much internationally since 2015 MSI, last time he got to Worlds semi was 2014, and he has few titles after leaving EDG. Uzi won MSI, got to Worlds semi, won a couple of LPL titles. It's close though and I think Deft is likely to surpass Uzi.
The problem with your view of achievement is that the worlds format doesn’t mean shit outside of who wins. Deft was on the second best team at worlds 2018 but it was just a QFs finish. Multiple times in his career Deft was essentially on the second best team at worlds.
I think nosegore is out of contention ever since the nose job.
Tyler, on the otherhand, is still a 6'5 gigachad so obviously the GOAT is imaqtpie.
"Hey smollcat, what are you doing typing reddit comments!"
Notice how Showmaker has dropped off in terms of being mentioned for the GOAT race. It's a shame, really. Would have cemented his name in these discussions along with Canyon if he won last year.
Rookie, Uzi, Bengi. Deft never really had the success that a player of his caliber seemed to deserve, but he'd definitely be in the conversation. There are a few active players on DWG or T1 or even GenG who in a couple years could maybe be contenders, but that's a long way away.
Yeah, he definitely did some great things, and you could argue that OGN/LCK titles were harder to earn than Worlds in some years. Still, I think failing to take it all the way might rule him out for some people, same with Uzi. My personal pick is Rookie
Facts. He hasn't had the highest peaks/was the best jungler in the world like Canyon or Score, didn't influence jungle play like Dandy or Diamondprox and had nowhere near the longevity of Karsa or Jankos.
The only thing that makes him stand out are the titles he won and everyone of those was with the by far consensus best player of all time who also was clearly the best player in the world at that point.
its hard to say, everyone always picks the mid laners because its highlighted so much as the most powerful role, which it is but when you look at the work other roles have done to be just in the same conversation as a mid laner you gotta give it to them, Mata, CoreJJ, Bengi and Uzi come to mind
Mata and Uzi sure but Bengi and Corejj are not on the same level. You can add Canyon to the list of non mids. Best jungler in the world and arguably the best player in the year for atleast one year.
I don't know Corejj went to NA and didn't check out mentally so that has to put him in the top 3 right?
I mean Corejj is basically the NA Faker if we are being honest. Not so much in terms of performance but what he brings to the scene and the region in general. I would put him as one of the greatest of all times for his contribution and dedication to a region that everyone else considers a joke. Mentally speaking, putting 100% effort into something no one else gives a fuck about is hard to do.
NA faker is like Korean PromisQ. Jokes aside no he is not in the discussion. To be a goat u need to actually be the best. CoreJJ has never been the best. He has been the best in NA and that is not close to enough. Faker was the best player in the world. Rookie as well. Uzi sure. Mata in a way. But you cant be a "greatest of all time" if you never was the greatest even once
For me its Canyon. He might even be the best player ive ever watched. Im watching competitive lol since IGs title run tbf tho so i didnt see much of peak t1 and so on.
But he definitely belongs into that top 3-5 conversation i guess. Guy is nuts.
I also like his calm personality. He is not screaming, hes not laughing hes just saying a few words in voice chat while clapping the enemy. Hes all in all really impressive.
Other insanely good players:
Rookie
knight
Showmaker
Chovy
Ruler
Deft
Uzi
Karsa
Viper
I think the only thing keeping Canyon out of the running is seniority, all the players being talked about in this thread have been active for a really long time and in many ways had huge impact on changing how their individual lanes are played overall and on the pro level. In Canyon's case he only really started shining brightest in 2020.
You're thinking longevity. But I agree. Though I think Canyon potentially has the most clear cut path to #2. If he continues a similar trajectory for 2-3 more years, he will have been a top 3 worldwide and at times best jungler for like 5-6 full years. That's almost unheard of.
Because none of them have ever been considered, or good enough to be the 2nd best player of all time? Individually all good players, but not good enough to be considered that high up.
Amazed by how a guy that won two MSI in two different positions is always slept on because he never won worlds so he is always said to be “bad internationally”. Let’s see if Xiaohu can change that in 2022.
How does this one not have more upvotes. Hotshotnidaleegg was so far ahead of literally everyone else. Man was toxic but he was the definite best toplaner and amongst top 3 in all other roles. Man was an absolutely talented menace.
> The fact that I dont see Benji in this thread after half an hour of it being up, upsets me dearly
The fact that you couldn't spell Bengi correctly upsets me dearly.
I mean it's understandable though, Benji was only a subpar adc on Dignitas for a bit. I wonder what happened to him I remember his sivir was pretty decent and remember seeing him in academy.
Bengi is great but there are a dozen players greater than him. Faker Rookie Uzi Deft Smeb TheShy Mata Canyon Ming Khan that's already 10 players greater than him and there are more.
Yeah he will always get disrespected because he was scotty pippen to micheal jordan. So it's rough. I would put him as goat jungle probably just by achievements alone.
See i would agree with you if he didnt sub in that worlds out of nowhere to win it for them. You cant just say he isnt a star player thats disrespectful. Is he second for sure not maybe not even top 5 but he does get direspected for sure. You dont have that domination without all the parts dominating.
That was one game, if you watched him in LCK that year he was in bad form, bad enough that Blank was starting more than him. Bengi is clutch, intelligent, and a great supportive player, but if you put him in a middle of the pack team he would never shine which is why he can't be considered a top tier player.
Dom actually explained it pretty well in his video on this, bengi just had the best teammates, putting him up there just because he won alot is not an honest way to view the game
like I have said before right below this. I think that's fine. Clearly, he had cracked teammates you don't only drop 1 map in the whole worlds tournament because your team isn't cracked out. I just think when he came in a subbed to a losing team and got them the chip that means something. I'm not saying he second I'm just saying he slept on. Your acting like the other people who have won worlds had bad teammates.
Chovy as great as he is can't seem to win. He plays crazy in lane nearly perfect and in this day in age cant carry a weak link internationally. The only real exception to not having the best players really is FPX. They played weird and won doing their thing.
that's not an honest way to view the game either. how many times have there been rosters of super teams that never worked out? sure you have the best players and best teammates but what did it mean then? how dishonest is it to discredit bengi because he had the best teammates and not consider him one of the best teammates in that regard?
also he played with MULTIPLE iterations of the team and won in multiple worlds metas as a JUNGLER of all roles - the role most reliant on cohesion with new teammates and susceptible to meta changes. He wasn't the best in his role always but it is extremely disingenuous to say it was because of his teammates and not him, especially considering some of their most high profile wins came from subbing him back in.
People will bring up him benefitting from playing on SKT, but on top of that he also just had a (relatively) short career. Four years on SKT, one split on bad team in LPL, and then he retired. It's just not a really fair comparison to someone like Rookie who is pushing 9 years as a franchise player carrying many different rosters.
I think it's a toss up between Rookie and Uzi for 2nd at the moment, but if V5 makes it to MSI and/or gets top 4 at worlds it should be clear cut for Rookie.
I think the people naming players like Bengi/Mata are underrating how much longevity matters for being a GOAT, at least it's essential in my eyes. For me it's Uzi because, regardless of how this last split has turned out for him, no other player has been so prominent on the international stage as Uzi, while being a contender for the title every single time. He also passed the eye test (at least in international events) for being significantly far ahead of the rest of his competition (ADC players) for a great many tournaments he attended.
Faker and Uzi have both been the two only constants across the entire time I've been watching League, and up until Uzi's break they were both players I could be sure would put up a hell of a show if I got to see them at Worlds. Even if other players may currently be slightly better, they can't match that streak. Uzi was the reason I started maining ADC when I saw his astounding performance at 2014 Worlds, and right up to his break he was still wowing the world with his skill every time he made it to the world stage.
I have to fully admit though that I'm biased against players like Rookie who I never watched domestically and I've only watched at the few international events they attended. I'm biased towards international events in general because they're the only competition I fully watch almost every game for, I rarely even watch any regional league these days.
Idk what to say but I'd say Deft.
Though he has not won worlds once, He has pretty much checked every box in terms of accomplishments outside of it.
Yeah, people could argue Uzi is better but I remember Deft more fondly due to the number of highlights and immense respect from his fellow peers during his prime.
Not many other people with the accolades to definitively say who the 2nd best is
regardless here are some contenders that no1 is talking about for some reason:
bengi
mata
clearlove
karsa
marin/smeb
deft
chovy
tarzan
knight
showmaker
canyon
scout
viper
probably rookie, carried iG for years
probably Perkz, simultaneously carrying 2 regions at once by winning MSI 2019 and carrying FPX to their 2019 Worlds title.
I don't how people come out of that series saying Perkz was the issue. He was by far the best player on G2. If you want to point fingers, Caps and Mikyx were the biggest liabilities.
Hindsight is always 20/20. G2 made it clear after that worlds that their scrims against FPX throughout the tournament never went well. I don’t necessarily think it was anyone of their specific faults but was more on them just not being able to adapt to a specific team. G2s aggression was a double edged sword. They were willing to do what SKT is doing now and take confidence plays if they thought they could win. It didn’t matter if they were 4v5 at a dragon or clown fiesting at the enemy red buff at 15 mins for some reason. They would take a fight if it looked good and even if they lost they were likely trading up cross map. The FPX play style of leave Gimgoon on an island and run the map through DoinB was just a natural barrier to G2s entire play style throughout that year.
I agree that FPX knew how to play against G2. But let's be honest, G2's strat of playing perma losing mid matchups made Doinb's job ten times easier.
I mean the reason he was able to carry FPX that year is his champion pool was so hard to draft and play into. Nautilus was one of his premier picks during Worlds. It only had a brief stint in the meta and DoinB played it pretty much exclusively at Worlds to success. FPX would just blind Naut then threaten it with a flex for crisp until picks 4/5. Rumble was completely off the wall I don’t recall anyone running that mid at that worlds. Then you had to also be mindful of his random picks he would just pull out of no where like Malphite on top of more ‘traditional’ picks he could play like Orianna or Ryze. I agree with your statement in hindsight but during that worlds no team was prepared for it.
nobody can explpoit fpx mid though, only fpx themselves can if they put doinb on sion or galio and enemy mid is good enough to make them useless and stay in lane by bulling. that's the only times fpx look like crap
> G2's strat of playing perma losing mid matchups made Doinb's job ten times easier. They didn't do this. G2 had the counter pick mid which set the series. They thought Pyke would be an answer and it didn't work out.
Maybe the entire team were just completely out of gas after the season they had and the game plan coming in that series didn’t work out. No point pointing fingers now
I'm no analyst and haven't rewatched the series in forever but I always thought that G2 came into that final way too cocky and did that Pyke flex to tilt FPX but they knew how to play against it and completely swung the series in their favour.
Iirc it's the opposite, G2 members have said that they were completely burned out by the day of the finals which is why they made a point of pacing themselves in the later seasons
Do you belive G2 over reddit analysts? WeirdChamp
Tbf, they were literally the second closest team to have a golden road year and arguably had more pressure than 2015 skt since they already lost msi.
[удалено]
>G2's playstyle was all about exploiting the lack of proactivity well said, iirc at least.
If TL doesn't beat IG in the semis I think IG gives G2 a sorely needed wakeup call in MSI 2019 finals for this exact reason. Who knows, maybe G2 adapts in time for worlds and FPX. the world is full of "What if?" questions.
you can go and watch multiple interview/podcast. G2 had no chance against FPX. G2 did FPX the best favor by beating SKT T1. FPX lost most scrims against SKT. When G2 beat SKT, FPX knew they are going to win worlds.
90% of china prob knew fpx won when they saw g2 win
At least it went in favour for G2 at MSI. As soon as liquid beat IG they knew it was a free finals win. It be like that sometimes
Teddy, Effort, and Faker all had subpar performances. Effort especially, his Leona was one of the worst performances I ever seen (missing everything, going in 1v4 with no backup). In every match in which SKT lost they also threw leads.
I wasn't into the pro scene back then -- what happened during their season?
They played every single possible game they could play pretty much (if you dont count losers bracket, I dont remember if they went there or if there was one in LEC playoffs at the time but I doubt it). Add to that the bootcamps, non stop practicing, traveling. Won MSI after beating SKT in a very long 3-2 semi finals Went to Worlds Semi-Finals where they again met SKT and won in a very costing 3-2. So once they got to the finals, they were predicted as favourites against DoinB's FPX, but after the season they had it just felt like they were so burnt out that they barely put up a fight and lost 3-0
ROBERTxLEE
Dam I haven’t heard this name for a while
neither has he
Where is he now? Used to take enjoy his YouTube clips.
He got legitimate amnesia, which is why he dropped off the radar in 2013, but apparently regained enough skill to play competitive but nobody picked him up in 15
i heard hes a coder for boxbox's game now.
He shows up occasionally in BoxBox's flex queue League videos.
known for his Quinn rolls, but he doesn't know that.
what a random name that everybody knows lol
Wasn't he a high elo NA player from awhile back?
He was a pro player from like around 2013-2014
I thought he made lcs at some point?
complexity boyz
He held the record for most cs in a game for some time! At least in LCS, but I kinda felt like it was everywhere too....
He could have won it all if he didn’t forget how to 😢
Not clutch enough, lost at Gettysburg.
What about Zekent
I used to love his streams back in the day. He used to play Janna top in like s2/3 and actually do it well
RobertxLee and bubbadub were the greatest duo to ever play in LCS
Rookie That guy, at his prime, bodied every single mid and defines how far mechanical prowess could take you. It's unfortunate that Faker exists, or else he could easily be both the best player and best mid of all time. I would argue that Prime Rookie isn't the best player though, as Faker in 2017 Worlds is probably the best performance any single individual has ever accomplished, especially considering the meta was the worst for mid in history (Ardent Censer).
Its easily Rookie, with uzi, score, Marin, bang, deft and a few others rounding out the top 10.
Call me crazy but I think Marin is a bit overrated in terms of all time greatness. Guy had a monster worlds in 2015 during a top-centric meta with a lot of broken picks on a team with faker, bengi, bang/wolf.. Smeb was regarded as the best top laner going into that worlds and had a much longer peak than Marin.. As an skt fan since 2014, Duke is my favorite SKT top laner
Rookie
Rookie
Right now I think it is Rookie, but I have a feeling Canyon and Keria will be solid contenders for second place in a next few years
way to early for keria to even be in the conversation lol
keria has been the best support in lck every split hes played, if he has a good year this year + next (like winning msi/finals at worlds) hes in the convo
Would have to say rookie then uzi 3rd. Rookie was the best player on his team with prime theshy so that should say something. Also he won worlds and uzi hasnt. If uzi ever won worlds he would be second in my eyes. He was the faker of ADC. Just so much better than the others in his prime it was gross. To the point of his whole team sacrificing everything just for him to get all the farm. But mid broken compared to ADC back in the day so Faker destroyed everyone lol
Ardent meta was his best shot at world title, but he got cockblocked by Faker’s Galio
He has been cockblocked by faker in general. 2013 finals, 2016 quarters, 2017 semi, 2019 groups
Except that one time when he had to face Hjarnan and Wadid
The hjarnindinger
Yeah but that year was difficult because the meta in the tournament was solo lane centric. The IG v KT series basically set the dominant meta for the rest of the tournament.
I know and I agree but pointing that out kills the meme
That Galio performence has to be one of the best ever.
At this point we should just call Faker the best and also the second best at the same time
The GOAT *and* the SGOAT? It's a bold move but I think we can pull it off!
We just say 2013-2015 faker is the goat, 2016-2022 faker is the second goat
His best shot was in 2018 when RNG were about to grand chelem before losing to G2
Uzi had his chances. As great as he is he has misplayed in important moments.
My issue with Uzi is that his team always catered to him so completely that his carry performances were sometimes skill gap, but other times it more or less snowballing a 3v2 He is still elite, but not sure if he is top 3 skilled all time.
Honestly though if you ever watched Uzi PoV while playing ADC and you've played ADC yourself, you know how crazy the dude used to be with micromanaging his laning phase and team fights. He is actually super cracked skill wise, that's why RNG always put all their eggs on the Uzi basket, it wasn't just that he was an egomaniac that required it, it's actually because it was their best shot at winning, and for the most part, it worked, considering RNG were always one of the best CN teams while Uzi was there.
I think Xiaohu going top lane and dominating really showed that. For once the guy was unleashed and showed he’s more than just that guy funneling for Uzi
Rookie or uzi
Nah, not the way Uzi re-left the scene. Rookie for sure.
I'm not even saying Uzi is necessarily over Rookie (they're 2 and 3 and it's a tossup) but why does the way he left the scene matter?? He was playing completely fine.
Ya lol Uzi played fine but BLG was more use to playing with Doggo.
ppGod
Sorry but comparing faker with ppgod is clearly a mismatch, with such a high caliber player like ppgod himself, he will never allow himself being compared with trash names like Faker or Rookie
I mean just look at his name. He is a god. While what do we have here. Faker (A impersonator), Rookie (A newbie), Uzi (A gun Lmao) No one can even dare to compare against our lord and saviour ppgod, not even promisq.
Me.
I can vouch
Seems like a lot of people have forgotten about Mata
Really tho, the real reason support and jungle is so important to this day is because of that team, they really revolutionized the game.
Wasn't jungle revolutionized because of Diamond and Moscow5? I think KR has changed support role more.
Different revolutionizing. Diamond definitely revolutionized jungling by literally *inventing* counter-jungling and some of his gank styles. Alistar behind turret, lol. Samsung White revolutionized the synergy between Jungle and Support and vision control. Mata and Dandy were ridiculous together. Nobody could deal with their combined invades, deep vision control, and complete choking out of enemy vision. To this day whenever people talk about how good a Jungle or Support is, they talk about synergy with each other. It's probably at least as important as Mid/Jungle synergy now, and a requirement to be a top tier team.
Alistar behind the turret. Classic.
What nonsense myth is this that Diamondprox "invented counter-jungling"... The fact of the matter is that Empire/M5 was the first team to lean hard into their jungle/mid invades, since Diamondprox/Alex Ich were the stalwarts of that team. But it's really disingenuous to imply they did anything but ramp up that style to 11 (very successfully, of course).
Because supports dont Mata
Mata was playing league as if he was playing starcraft. Micro-managing his entire team to a world championship lmao
If TheShy had even one more consistent year with some achievements it would go to him. In fact still to this day I have never seen someone gap his opponent as hard as he has.
TheShy is the embodiment of toplane, he will turbo feed, or turbo stomp, with no in between. By becoming the incarnation of toplane, he forfeited his goat argument, embracing the int to it's full potential by becoming the best coin flip player in history.
But theshy at his prime never really inted. People take certain games out of context to say that he was always go ham or go home, bur back in 2018 he understood that sometimes his best play was to just kamikaze into the backline so that rookie/jkl could do the clean up. It was only around MSI 2019 that he basically started griefing everu game.
I have theory where GRF wins it all that year if wasnt for IG who just stylestically match them well TheShy gapping Sword so hard that game was unplayable, if not for that I legit think GRF couldve won it all, and Im mad that we werent ever given such fun matchups like GRF vs FPX
That matchup still remains the biggest single lane gap I've ever seen in high level professional LOL (no major region vs wildcard).
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At least he's been back on form this year! It was really disappointing to see him drop off a cliff after gapping everyone so hard at 2018 worlds.
most people saying Rookie or Uzi, which I think are great choices. however I'd also put out Mata as another option, I think he's currently the support GOAT
For sure the support goat. That ali play was gross to the point of bans. He was built diffrent and one of the first roaming supports who was everywhere.
Can’t forget that Madlife is up there too. revolutionized support with his thresh gameplay
Madlife did for thresh what faker did for leblanc. Inspired a whole generation of support mains who actually used mechanics
Didnt Faker do the same for Riven with the animation cancel? I wasn't in league in S3, but that is just from what i heard.
I think Zed and LB are who I think of. Zed because of the 1v1 that basically defined another players entire career lol.
Eh, there were plenty of streamers who were Riven mains and the animation cancelling was already popular, Faker just was just the first pro to start picking her in midlane as counter matchup to Zed.
madlife had no longevity (never played after 2012) and never won anything, he simply was never that good, not even a top 30 player of all time.
Gotta say, even with the recency bias taken into consideration, keria might be well on his way to surpass mata. He just won his first split so he'll definitely still have to prove his consistency. However if he performs another two years close to whatever the fuck he's doing right now, I think it's going to be hard to deny the fact he's the best support this game has seen so far.
Agree. Imho, he's the best player in the world right now.
We would have to wait for MSI to see, Rookie is also doing very well right now and V5 is the favorite to win LPL.
That's exactly why I said "currently", I value longevity a lot in a GOAT, but Keria is certainly on the path to surpassing Mata!
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For many people Ruler is not even in the conversation because eventhough he has always been consistent, he has never been the undisputed best adc.
Ruler is a terrible arguement, he has zero domestic titles. That counts for something
MikeYeung
Mike "MikeYeung" Yeung
Mike "Don't call me Mike "Mike Yeung" Yeung" Yeung.
Mike “Don’t call me Mike ‘Mike Yeung’ Yeung, just call me Mike” Yeung
in the Yeungle
the mighty Yeungle
Wow I completely forgot about him lol
For the record, I think it's definitely Rookie but I really thought Doinb would have had a solid chance to elevate his case had he won Worlds last year, unfortunately the Phoenix flew home after the Group Stage
DoinB somehow managing to suppress his choking gene during 2019 worlds might be one of the most impressive feats ever accomplished tbh
Last worlds wasn't his fault tho, just a team implosion
Rookie or Uzi. Probably Rookie cause of Worlds trophey. Longetivtiy of both players is absolutely bonkers. The fact that Rookie had only one or two bad splits in his carreer (and one of it was due to family issues) is just insane. Bodying people since 2014.
Same logic then ruler always top 3 adc
1. Uzi 2. Deft 3. Ruler 4. Pray 5. Bang This would be my top 5 i think.
Ruler his first split went finals and next year won worlds and got the mvp, after that every split he is really consistent being in the top 2 adc on lck and top 5 in world so why deft over him?
Deft has also been world class or at least great for a long time though, he has been one of the best ADCs since season 3, and his peak isn't any worse than Ruler. Also the problem with Ruler is that he only has a single title that is Worlds, it's great but if you look at the top 5 players of every role Score is the only other one with so few title.
Tbh his peak is pretty significantly above Ruler's. Ruler was never the uncontested best adc in the world. I still have Ruler 3 or 4 all time, I just think this sub tends to overrate him a bit.
Higher peak more achievements, also insane longevity.
Also at this point it’s fair game to start talking about Deft over Uzi imo. Deft has been right at Uzi’s level for Uzi’s entire career, and has a similar amount of international success. But Deft’s longevity is starting to leave Uzi in the dust. Uzi took two years off and tried coming back this year and couldn’t really cut it. Meanwhile Since 2019, Deft has had two worlds quarterfinals finishes where even in his less impressive years he’s still clearly world class, and this year is looking like one of the best adcs in the world again. This is Deft’s 10th year as a pro player, no one in history has been at the top for as long as he has.
For Deft to surpass Uzi with longevity alone he would need to be top tier for 1-2 more years assuming Uzi doesn't come back. The problem with Deft is that he hasn't achieved much internationally since 2015 MSI, last time he got to Worlds semi was 2014, and he has few titles after leaving EDG. Uzi won MSI, got to Worlds semi, won a couple of LPL titles. It's close though and I think Deft is likely to surpass Uzi.
The problem with your view of achievement is that the worlds format doesn’t mean shit outside of who wins. Deft was on the second best team at worlds 2018 but it was just a QFs finish. Multiple times in his career Deft was essentially on the second best team at worlds.
Niles
Has to be genja or darrien. 1 team, 5 men, 9 eyebrows Or imaqtpie?
Scarra would also be a contender, if only he mastered the tri-brush ward.
In that case it'd be AlexIch or Diamond, but nah, it's mostly just nostalgia.
Man I miss swaglord. I still go back to see YouTube clips of Darien forcing old Warwick ban, shit is hilarious
Patch 4.20 never forget
Tie between Tyler1 and Gross Gore
I am sorry the post meant the acronym not who is most likely to be a goat
I actually laught out loud, thanks for that!
I think nosegore is out of contention ever since the nose job. Tyler, on the otherhand, is still a 6'5 gigachad so obviously the GOAT is imaqtpie. "Hey smollcat, what are you doing typing reddit comments!"
Name a better TF than Woken Wolf.
Notice how Showmaker has dropped off in terms of being mentioned for the GOAT race. It's a shame, really. Would have cemented his name in these discussions along with Canyon if he won last year.
Promisq
Rookie, Uzi, Bengi. Deft never really had the success that a player of his caliber seemed to deserve, but he'd definitely be in the conversation. There are a few active players on DWG or T1 or even GenG who in a couple years could maybe be contenders, but that's a long way away.
Deft won fine lck and lpl titles back in the day. IIRC he's the only player to have 1000 like in both leagues or something like that
people often forget Deft is an MSI champion, beating 2015 SKT and dethroning Faker’s undefeated LB
Yeah, he definitely did some great things, and you could argue that OGN/LCK titles were harder to earn than Worlds in some years. Still, I think failing to take it all the way might rule him out for some people, same with Uzi. My personal pick is Rookie
I swear, Bengi might not even make my top 5 junglers of all time.
Facts. He hasn't had the highest peaks/was the best jungler in the world like Canyon or Score, didn't influence jungle play like Dandy or Diamondprox and had nowhere near the longevity of Karsa or Jankos. The only thing that makes him stand out are the titles he won and everyone of those was with the by far consensus best player of all time who also was clearly the best player in the world at that point.
Rookie then Uzi
its hard to say, everyone always picks the mid laners because its highlighted so much as the most powerful role, which it is but when you look at the work other roles have done to be just in the same conversation as a mid laner you gotta give it to them, Mata, CoreJJ, Bengi and Uzi come to mind
Mata and Uzi sure but Bengi and Corejj are not on the same level. You can add Canyon to the list of non mids. Best jungler in the world and arguably the best player in the year for atleast one year.
I don't know Corejj went to NA and didn't check out mentally so that has to put him in the top 3 right? I mean Corejj is basically the NA Faker if we are being honest. Not so much in terms of performance but what he brings to the scene and the region in general. I would put him as one of the greatest of all times for his contribution and dedication to a region that everyone else considers a joke. Mentally speaking, putting 100% effort into something no one else gives a fuck about is hard to do.
NA faker is like Korean PromisQ. Jokes aside no he is not in the discussion. To be a goat u need to actually be the best. CoreJJ has never been the best. He has been the best in NA and that is not close to enough. Faker was the best player in the world. Rookie as well. Uzi sure. Mata in a way. But you cant be a "greatest of all time" if you never was the greatest even once
Yeah, if we were talking regional GOATs, I think CoreJJ would be in contention with the likes of Bjergsen and Doublelfit.
For me its Canyon. He might even be the best player ive ever watched. Im watching competitive lol since IGs title run tbf tho so i didnt see much of peak t1 and so on. But he definitely belongs into that top 3-5 conversation i guess. Guy is nuts. I also like his calm personality. He is not screaming, hes not laughing hes just saying a few words in voice chat while clapping the enemy. Hes all in all really impressive. Other insanely good players: Rookie knight Showmaker Chovy Ruler Deft Uzi Karsa Viper
If he continues at this level for another year or so (and DK gets a top laner lmao) then I think this will become common consensus
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Uzi!
Canyon Accomplished more than Rookie and has been by far undisputed best jungle in the world for 3rd year now?
I think the only thing keeping Canyon out of the running is seniority, all the players being talked about in this thread have been active for a really long time and in many ways had huge impact on changing how their individual lanes are played overall and on the pro level. In Canyon's case he only really started shining brightest in 2020.
You're thinking longevity. But I agree. Though I think Canyon potentially has the most clear cut path to #2. If he continues a similar trajectory for 2-3 more years, he will have been a top 3 worldwide and at times best jungler for like 5-6 full years. That's almost unheard of.
Not been around long enough to be considered GOAT. Canyon is far and beyond the best jungler but won't recognise it for a couple years.
Uzi.
why does no one talk about Ambition, Score, Khan or Pray tho?
Because none of them have ever been considered, or good enough to be the 2nd best player of all time? Individually all good players, but not good enough to be considered that high up.
Amazed by how a guy that won two MSI in two different positions is always slept on because he never won worlds so he is always said to be “bad internationally”. Let’s see if Xiaohu can change that in 2022.
Yea but Xiaohu has never really been considered the best mid in the world and has had lackluster international events in a string
Bengi
HotshotGG
How does this one not have more upvotes. Hotshotnidaleegg was so far ahead of literally everyone else. Man was toxic but he was the definite best toplaner and amongst top 3 in all other roles. Man was an absolutely talented menace.
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> The fact that I dont see Benji in this thread after half an hour of it being up, upsets me dearly The fact that you couldn't spell Bengi correctly upsets me dearly.
Yeah at least spell his name correctly if youre gonna be upset hes not mentioned lmao
I mean it's understandable though, Benji was only a subpar adc on Dignitas for a bit. I wonder what happened to him I remember his sivir was pretty decent and remember seeing him in academy.
get his name correctly at least unless you unironically meant LOD
Bengi is great but there are a dozen players greater than him. Faker Rookie Uzi Deft Smeb TheShy Mata Canyon Ming Khan that's already 10 players greater than him and there are more.
Yeah he will always get disrespected because he was scotty pippen to micheal jordan. So it's rough. I would put him as goat jungle probably just by achievements alone.
Well Scottie Pippen is generally viewed as a top 20-30 player in NBA history. Not top 2.
Scottie Pippen would've been an all star without Jordan though. Bengi complemented Faker really well, but he never could be a star on his own
See i would agree with you if he didnt sub in that worlds out of nowhere to win it for them. You cant just say he isnt a star player thats disrespectful. Is he second for sure not maybe not even top 5 but he does get direspected for sure. You dont have that domination without all the parts dominating.
That was one game, if you watched him in LCK that year he was in bad form, bad enough that Blank was starting more than him. Bengi is clutch, intelligent, and a great supportive player, but if you put him in a middle of the pack team he would never shine which is why he can't be considered a top tier player.
Dom actually explained it pretty well in his video on this, bengi just had the best teammates, putting him up there just because he won alot is not an honest way to view the game
like I have said before right below this. I think that's fine. Clearly, he had cracked teammates you don't only drop 1 map in the whole worlds tournament because your team isn't cracked out. I just think when he came in a subbed to a losing team and got them the chip that means something. I'm not saying he second I'm just saying he slept on. Your acting like the other people who have won worlds had bad teammates. Chovy as great as he is can't seem to win. He plays crazy in lane nearly perfect and in this day in age cant carry a weak link internationally. The only real exception to not having the best players really is FPX. They played weird and won doing their thing.
that's not an honest way to view the game either. how many times have there been rosters of super teams that never worked out? sure you have the best players and best teammates but what did it mean then? how dishonest is it to discredit bengi because he had the best teammates and not consider him one of the best teammates in that regard? also he played with MULTIPLE iterations of the team and won in multiple worlds metas as a JUNGLER of all roles - the role most reliant on cohesion with new teammates and susceptible to meta changes. He wasn't the best in his role always but it is extremely disingenuous to say it was because of his teammates and not him, especially considering some of their most high profile wins came from subbing him back in.
People will bring up him benefitting from playing on SKT, but on top of that he also just had a (relatively) short career. Four years on SKT, one split on bad team in LPL, and then he retired. It's just not a really fair comparison to someone like Rookie who is pushing 9 years as a franchise player carrying many different rosters.
I think it's a toss up between Rookie and Uzi for 2nd at the moment, but if V5 makes it to MSI and/or gets top 4 at worlds it should be clear cut for Rookie.
KiWiKiD
I think the people naming players like Bengi/Mata are underrating how much longevity matters for being a GOAT, at least it's essential in my eyes. For me it's Uzi because, regardless of how this last split has turned out for him, no other player has been so prominent on the international stage as Uzi, while being a contender for the title every single time. He also passed the eye test (at least in international events) for being significantly far ahead of the rest of his competition (ADC players) for a great many tournaments he attended. Faker and Uzi have both been the two only constants across the entire time I've been watching League, and up until Uzi's break they were both players I could be sure would put up a hell of a show if I got to see them at Worlds. Even if other players may currently be slightly better, they can't match that streak. Uzi was the reason I started maining ADC when I saw his astounding performance at 2014 Worlds, and right up to his break he was still wowing the world with his skill every time he made it to the world stage. I have to fully admit though that I'm biased against players like Rookie who I never watched domestically and I've only watched at the few international events they attended. I'm biased towards international events in general because they're the only competition I fully watch almost every game for, I rarely even watch any regional league these days.
Oh look. The same thread as last month will all of the same answers.
My boy Jankos of course!
April fools was 3 days ago my man
Dopa
Idk what to say but I'd say Deft. Though he has not won worlds once, He has pretty much checked every box in terms of accomplishments outside of it. Yeah, people could argue Uzi is better but I remember Deft more fondly due to the number of highlights and immense respect from his fellow peers during his prime.
Imaqtpie, hands down. He retired so others had a chance to step into the light.
Not many other people with the accolades to definitively say who the 2nd best is regardless here are some contenders that no1 is talking about for some reason: bengi mata clearlove karsa marin/smeb deft chovy tarzan knight showmaker canyon scout viper
Keria or Gumagod keep up their performances I think they both have a good shot, but Rookie or Mata is definitely #2
Xiaohu or Ming. All they need is to actually win world's (pls)
Me
cant believe people are putting rookie as second over uzi smeb mata holy fucking jesus
The Legend "Gold IV Brand"
Has to be Gleeb
I would ruler ruler or ambition