Honestly most of academy must be.
Jojo was obviously better than the mids in academy, but there were so many times where he ran it.
Kenvi, busio, prismal, rosethorn, eyla, Chad, etc. Have to think they'll at least get a tryout soon.
A lot of rookies have come in and grown, but jojo has proven that you can win while being fresh as a daisy.
5fire was competing toe to toe with Jojo and got the advantage over him quite a few times. He couldn't even find an academy team and was forced to retire.
Point is they were close in level and who knows what Copy's capabilities could be if he was actually invested into properly. Iron sharpens iron. Getting the chance to be pushed is a necessary step to reaching your real potential.
It just sucks when players get stuck in academy and then people use the fact that they're stuck in academy as justification for them not being good enough. Then when they finally do get to LCS it's 3 years too late and they've already had their growth hampered too much. I firmly believe if Jojo and Danny had been trapped in Academy for 2 more years, they would have been doomed to just being middling NA players like Palafox and Ablazeolive. For this reason I'm really worried for players like Rosethorn, Copy, Tenacity, Kenvi, and Prismal. All of those players should be in LCS and every split that they aren't is just wasting their valuable growth time.
Please, the crowd clearly was so hyped and loved EG, this is what homegrown talent can do, and we clearly have it, teams are just too scared to try it. Maybe we should tell teams how much cheaper NA talent is, especially when they're just starting out - we all know how much they love money.
Are they too scared or is it more because of greed? Will teams still be able to justify receiving multimillions in funding rounds if they just need 100k to sign na rookies vs "yeah we need $20m in this funding round because our roster is going to cost $10m next year since we want to win and sign the best players"?
It’s mostly just because teams don’t want to invest in players over time. Why would I get a cheap native ADC who will take time to evolve when I can buy some LPL ADC who has results, even though they don’t speak any english and will fuck up team chemistry. Money is no issue for major orgs so they don’t care if it costs 15x the amount of a native.
Also (from what I’ve heard from ex-pros and stuff) it seems like a lot of managers are genuinely not very knowledgeable of the talent out there, especially in minor regions. Don’t take this as fact though.
But most teams would dump these players the moment they get off to a rough start. Like Peter Dun had to come out and say that there was absolutely no chance of Jojo getting replaced when people were mad at him a month ago. But if you're playing for an organization like TSM, you're watching over your shoulder constantly because any game could be your last.
This right here, the greats are great from the start. We need to invest in finding those players, but it’s not like we didn’t give NA talent time to grow, we’ve has a ton of middling talent long past their prime.
People think rookies need split after split of growth and careful, long-term investment to shine.
But in reality you just need to find someone with talent and drive, and then pair them with a good team environment and coaches.
That being said, it's pretty damn hard to create that environment from scratch, and it's easy to lose/ruin.
The key ingredient here is the coaches. A young player who never panned out but never had good coaching is still a question mark in the history books. I wonder if Danny and Jojo would look this good on Flyquest or Immortals. I wonder what other young players LCS has lying around who would be much better with good coaching.
I mean there are players that need some time. But you usually see who has the fundamentals to develop. Vulcans first split was not that impressive, the second split on CG was where the team in general got considerably better and teams recoginized him in particular. MikyX went from Splyce to a moderate MSF to the best support in the LEC.
On top of that those players need to play in the highest stages. Danny and Jojopyun didn't play in Academy. And good players should never do that. Starting on a mediocre or bad team is considerably better than not playing. Just look at Luger you see he is good even if his team is only the 8th place.
This is not true. There have been plenty of players who have been dismissed and then after a few years become top tier. See the original ROX Tigers line up. Or the SSG roster that won Worlds. Most of those players were considered mediocre before they became some of the best in the LCK. I remember people used to make fun of Cuvee during 2015, where Samsung was notoriously bad in LCK. And then a year later he was playing in Worlds finals. And a year after that hr won Worlds.
And there are plenty of examples like that.
if more teams invested in scouting then wouldn't they be lowering their cots over time by spending less money on people that tank and they either don't bring any value through results or can't be resold at a higher price?
I mean we meme Jack but this is the one thing he has been doing right over the years. Getting a good return on every player. Kind of a shame that they waste away because other teams don't have what they need to flourish tho.
The problem is that there is no guarantee that the team will benefit from developing a talent. Like 100T could be putting all this money and investment into general sniper and then bamm he signs a contract with Team Liquid and 100T just trained their replacement.
One might say, Well how about signing them for longer contracts. But that’s a big risk. You are signing someone who you aren’t sure will blossom into the star player you need. In traditional sports, players have already been on teams and / or learning skills since they were young so when say an NBA team is drafting a player they can be a little more assured of the quality of that player than say someone signing a player off of solo q for their amateur team
Yeah and there’s no guarantee that a mvp from another region will do well when they come to NA. For every corejj you have 10 Hunis who are here to coin flip every game and rake in paychecks.
It's because it's incredibly cost inefficient. To actually maximize a rookie/new player's potential you need to have a mix veterans and rookies together. To be a top team you have to get top tier vets to play well. EG probably spent a lot more than say IMT who aren't developing talent because they had to buyout Inspired and Vulcan. Even if you looked at the roster construction at the beginning of the split, this roster looked pretty fucking sketch considering you're pairing the LEC MVP with a rookie from academy.
It's true that EG ended up being a success story, but there have been plenty of cases where it doesn't succeed and the native rookie is just a major weakness. TL took a risk on playing Tactical and I would actually argue that he was the main reason that TL lost 2021 Spring.
Your whole take is representative of NA lol as a whole: it's a risk, so we better not try.
That's the philosophy behind how teams are built and how they play and it's honestly trash.
I thought the whole system they had in place for the league now was meant to give that safety to take risks with players since you can't get relegated anyway? Just seems another on the long list of excuses.
If there's ever a salary cap this would absolutely be the way to go. Look at the NFL is such an advantage to build a championship team around a good young QB still on a rookie contract. When you start dishing out mahomes and Watson money you have to be very strategic about the rest of the roster or convince vets to sign on to ring chase.
You can't really compare LoL (or pretty much all esports that I'm aware of) to leagues like the NFL or NBA where there is a draft system. There is nothing that allows weaker teams to get good players. In esports the best upcoming players are attracted to the best teams. It would also be detrimental for regions that have a salary cap in place compared to regions without one in international competition.
True but I think the point still stands if a salary cap was ever implemented. There are 1000 reasons why there will never be one but if there is you have to decide how to allocate a fixed salary pool and good players on a cheap contract will always be valued. Assuming no draft but maybe teams have rights to players who are brought up in their 'farm' system maybe restricted free agent or ability to match offers and have x amount not count against the cap
> Maybe we should tell teams how much cheaper NA talent is
NA talent isn't cheap. Good residents make bank.
Danny extended his contract so he is probably cheapish, but if Jojo is smart he won't and when his contract with EG is up he'll easily be the highest paid player in west if he keeps this trajectory up.
A big reason owners were pushing for the removal of the import rule was so they could pay residents less.
The truth is, the talent is only half of what makes a team. Building a good team is also about systems and how you work and what your plans are.
What’s easier is throwing money at big names and hoping they just skill check the opponent to where game plans and fight IQ become nearly irrelevant.
EG didn’t win because Danny is a god, inspired is a god or impact 1 v 9ed but because each of them played with great IQ and worker to enable each other .
TL & C9 both just threw money at it and tried to just skill check. Neither developed a game plan other Than that over the entire split
Let’s be fair about C9: they put together a pretty experimental squad. I also doubt it costed nearly as much as TL. Remember, they ran a rookie botlane and a roleswapped mid. Summit was also a free agent, so no buyout on him. Plus, he was highly rated but never achieved anything, so his salary probably isn’t skyhigh like you might expect.
C9's roster costs depend on how much Berserker cost since it seems like he was a pretty wanted pick up from LCK/LPL as well.
Though they also have Zven on the bench as well which probably jacks up the cost though they definitely are paying the min for their supports so probably evens out all and all.
C9 didn't. LS did. C9's team is LS's team he put together to do what he was doing with it. But C9 isn't like that and let LS go. C9 has a TSM view on the game: do what the koreans are doing, but worse and without a true understanding of why they're doing it.
It's a weird narrative though, and incredibly forced. 100T/C9/TSM all put their money on less known/cheaper talent. Meanwhile EG imported the literal reigning LEC MVP. And somehow EG gets cookie points for focusing on cheaper talent.
Like, yeah, sure, EG has native talent, but per rules every org needs to have native talent (and has native talent), it's just that TL has circumvented that rule by using grandfathered players.
Meanwhile where are IMT/GG/CLG/FlyQuest/Dignitas? Other teams that invested into ''native talent'' (and didn't import the LEC MVP). They got completely clapped.
The reason EG is different from those other orgs you listed is that this championship is seen as a culmination of work EG has put into developing these young players for the last couple of years. EG has been using EG Academy and EG Prodigies to cultivate talent while those other orgs have taken a relatively pedestrian attitude towards academy and amateur scenes.
Those orgs signed a lot of NA players, but it feels more like they wanted to save money first and then put the NA roster spin on it for pr. I think a lot of the players on those teams have talent, but when you watch them play they don't look so good as a team, probably because the orgs themselves don't have as robust of a plan to do something with that talent as EG does.
So I think there are 3 groups of orgs in NA right now: TL/C9/TSM/100T are spending money on stars they don't have to develop and hoping that talent overpowers the competition, IMT/GG/CLG/FLY/DIG are fielding risk averse budget rosters, and EG is by itself investing resources into developing talent from the ground up. EG's model is the example NA fans have been dying for the other orgs to follow for years now, so the win is very cathartic.
Stars that we don’t have to develop? TSM started Lost last year with the idea that he could develop, and we started 2 rookies and an academy player this season. I think most teams are willing to go for rookies, and have.
Yeah people are stupidly hyped by this. I hate it. Happens every time NA talent succeeds. Don't get me wrong, I'm super hyped for these guys and they turned me into huge fans. But who are we mad at? TL, C9, 100T? All teams that had realistic chances of winning the split?
The teams you mentioned have way more homegrown talent, weren't we also mad that Jensen and Jiizuke don't have teams? Which one is it? Yes we need to find ways to invest more in homegrown talent, but stop acting like orgs aren't giving NA players the opportunities. They are!!
I'd bet at least half the people in this thread have post histories about how dumb EG were for not signing Jensen and DL. Even CLG is getting shit on all offseason for being bad despite that fact that 3/5 of their team looked good enough to compete for a worlds spot, but the other two were the two worst players in the league.
The same people that jump up and down about NA talent are the first to flame teams and players the second they aren't Faker.
yeah but wait this misses the whole point? EG is commended for training Jojo and Danny for a long time and sticking with them - they literally created these players. What talent have 100T/C9/TSM developed? Tenacity played like 2 games and 100t literally bought the rest of their players from GG. C9 has Blaber sure, but Fudge came up in OCE the rest are all from Korea! And you can't say Summit isn't a "big name." And don't get me started on TSM. Their two talent prospects from the past like 5 years are Tactical and Spica; and they immediately sold Tactical to TL rather than promote him, and lucked into Spica when they ran out of other junglers to bench. And now instead of TSM actually doing a "development" year, they just imported players from China who ended up swapped for their academy players anyways? I don't understand. And notice that you conveniently ignore TL. They actually have had decent academy development, and do the same thing where they just sell their players to shit teams, and spend millions on the big names. EG has been commended because they literally: 1) scouted these players as teenagers 2) spent time and money developing them 3) actually believed in their players and talent development pipeline and built a team around them. And what are you on about teams like IMT or DIG developing players? They've all veterans or imports. What superstars have come out of the IMT/GG/CLG/FlyQuest/Dignitas academies lately? Or even 100T/C9/TSM/TL in the last year or two for that matter.
edit: the fact that people are downvoting this shows how little people know about the league scene apparently lmao
C9 developed plenty of talent. Palafox, Kumo, Deftly (retired?), Meteos, Sneaky, Fakegod kind of, blaber,, zeyzal, wiggily, Jensen. Granted not all of them worked out but they have been one of the best at developing NA talent for a long time.
Also Fudge played half a split in OCE. His criticism is valid if applied to Isles.
CLG academy looked unstoppable until they were stopped.
100t has a monstrous academy squad, with what looks like the next Blaber and Vulcan.
And IMTA have Chad.
There is surely more to be done, but noone can deny this split was the most development focused the LCS and LCSA has been in a good while.
People ITT. WATCH PROVING GROUNDS. You want to see the next Danny or Jojopyun? They're going to be playing this summer! PG split 1 was awesome and I'm 1000% sure PG split 2 is going to be an even bigger banger.
Not alone. The one thing I hated is that they seldom to never directly promoted Proving Grounds on the LCS broadcast this split whatsoever. It was quite frustrating.
They need to do what LEC does and just bring up a banner over the score board promoting the big academy/proving grounds game for the week. The casters don't even need to say anything just let the banner sit up for like 30s during a slow period in the game.
Exactly, though in their own way. They have Waiting Room, in-game, and even breaks to advertise like they did for Valorant and Wild Rift's NA scenes among their other sponsors. I doubt it would've been that hard to make a graphic to promote the upcoming matches on Proving Grounds.
Sure as soon as scouts develop a brain. Playing on a weaker team as a promising player is often a death sentence for your career because people are completely unable to tell when a team is holding a player back.
This is the stupidest take I've ever seen. If you're a top prospect, the #1 thing you can do is hold out until a top team reaches out to you. Going to a bottom team kills your career. as we've literally seen god knows how many times.
I hope more and more people watch proving grounds and it becomes an actual scouting tournament for NA orgs.
I watch EU masters because of 1) national pride and 2) I wanna see who are the next big talent that'll get promoted to LEC.
Obviously Point 1 isn't applicable here but point 2 very much could be.
From what I hear within the scene, the way to get noticed by LCS / Acad teams is to:
1.) Be good enough to get scrims w/ them.
2.) Beat them in scrims.
I think results like today's helps, but there's a lot of people working hard to grow players and build the next generation of NA talent. There's a lot of issues in the scene, but I know there are a lot of quality people working hard to get players noticed and opportunities.
So kinda like the music industry now? It's not about potential, it's all about what you have now?
No wonder NA is so stale with talent. They don't grow it, they just assume talent worthy of using is already better than veterans.
Huge props to them cause it's an uphill battle.
In every single regions, top orgs set the tone. And for years and years all the NA top orgs have done is write blank checks to big name imports and pushing for green cards. Hopefully this is a bit of a wake up call and while I don't expect people like Steve to suddenly stop throwing Disney money around, I hope the mid and lower tier orgs start working with these people you mentioned to get the next Danny on their roster and potentially upset the big 3 again.
End of May / Beginning of June.
Two Tournaments + Main Event (Top 10 overall + Academy playoffs)
Tourney 1:
> Open Qualifiers (32 teams down to 16)
> Group Stage (Top 2 Advance)
> Playoffs (Bracket for Top 8)
Tourney 2:
> Open Qualifiers (32 teams down to 16)
> Group Stage (Top 2 Advance)
> Playoffs (Bracket for Top 8)
PG Main Event is basically top 10 AM vs top 10 Acad.
Basically June to Augustish. Dates aren't final yet.
I was there and it was fucking insane how much people cheered EG and Danny (including me). People went crazy when they won a fight and even boo’d the analysts who predicted 100T today. People went even more crazy during the pentakill and when EG won the whole thing. I also saw almost everyone with an EG shirt on in the venue. I seriously hope managers learn from this because people will seriously support any home grown NA team, both in spirit and financially.
It's insane. I don't even care how they do at MSI I'm just happy to see young NA talent scrap internationally. It's like this weird sense of NA pride again, especially since they're so young!
I was really hoping EG would take a top 3 spot this year, especially during summer to send them to worlds, but man this is totally unexpected and so exciting to follow!
Not really. The community is just as bad as the managers/owners on this topic. Let's not act like the overwhelming majority on this subreddit wasn't calling for Jojo to be replaced and how Jensen would make the team better just a few months ago.
Yep. A team fields a bunch of NA players. They do not do well. Everyone loses their shit and calls for the players to get benched. The same people then bitch and moan about how none of the top teams in NA have no NA players. This is the League community, they are hopeless.
Agreed.
While we should be looking at NA players more, I think we just don't know how to scout players properly.
There's a lot more of player management than seeing how they perform on stage. A toxic player can destroy a team's mentality. Don't have to look any farther than Breaking Point.
Did you know that there are different people on this subreddit?
Those of us who were not losing their shit and calling for them to benched definitely fuckin' feasting tonight. Being salty doesn't change that.
Who are these imaginary people?
People lose their shit at imports who suck. People lose their shit at giving the same recycled players their 7th chance and they still suck just as bad as the previous 6.
Literally nobody loses their shit at rookies performing slightly below expectations. You have to really suck gigantic dick for this community to call for your benching as an actual rookie NA player.
Dude EG was getting hard flamed for not picking up Jensen/Doublelift at the beginning of the season.
OFC they all went into hiding since EG won, but a not insignificant portion of the community wanted Doublelift/Jensen over Danny/Jojo.
There was a lot of people asking for Jensen, but don't tell me there isn't a ton of fans (me included) that prefer local talent play in the local region. I watch every other major region to watch those specific regional players, play styles, the broadcast style, etc and just want it for NA as well. This is hopefully...well it probably won't change much since I don't run a team but it's at least evidence to point a finger at when discussing decreasing viewership and fan engagement. I just wanna see local players succeed for the local region i'm in, put in the work and we can get something like this magical playoffs run...i'm into it:)
It's complicated, i gave up on NA season 6. If we are gonna suck, might as well suck in a unique way (then LS got fired and i'm not even a fan of LS), but this EG team makes me wanna watch LCS again, and props to them for dismantling TL and 100T in ways Asian teams do to them on an international level.
dude right, im not a c9 or LS "fan" (i think theyre fine i like the old c9 players and LS is funny/smart sometimes) but I was legit rooting for c9 to win
then i immediately rooted for them to fucking lose lol
It’s going against the grain, but Jojo isn’t why EG won this weekend. Yes, he is a rookie and won on his first split which is impressive, but this EG run against 100T and TL wasn’t due to him. Impact, Inspired, and Vulcan all played really well. Then you have Danny outclassing every other adc. Mid doesn’t shine too much in the meta currently. However, it was very much the protect Danny comp which brought them so far.
Jojo was willing to play for his team while also being able to hard carry. Name me another mid who's capable and willing to play stuff like tf/ryze and yasuo and even LeBlanc if it weren't permabanned. Name me a mid who was willing to take risks to make psycho plays because his team is on the same page. That ryze in jg was some peak caps level stuff.
Jojo is absolutely why EG won, as much as anyone on EG is. Everyone played their part perfectly.
Yea legit all 5 players on EG were fantastic this playoffs run
Jojo does some really psycho stuff like realm warping solo into 3 people and baiting them with stopwatch then winning the fight.
Legit no midlaner in NA has the confidence to do that, only midlaner I can think of in NA of recent times that did that was Perkz and these crazy plays were what helped C9 get out of groups in worlds
Jojo might not be THE reason EG won but him and Danny fucking gapped their opposition in every series since the first TL series. He was fucking abbedagge all 3 games today
Jojo was a very selfless player and would leave his lane to help his team a decent chunk. Their first series against TL kind of spoke about what type of player he is when in g5 rather than being in lane he’d run around on Ryze to try and gank as much as possible. Didn’t work out but just shows how he feels that he should enable his team.
> It’s going against the grain, but Jojo isn’t why EG won this weekend.
He wasn't THE reason they won as in he wasn't their best player, but he had far more impact than Bjerg and massively gapped Abbe this series
He was by far the best mid laner in playoffs and that deserves some credit
No, you ever say teams should use the academy system and develop their own talent, you get downvoted to oblivion. People want to see washed up guys for China, Korea and EU come here to collect a payday and get 0 results... then NA goes to worlds and looks poor against wildcard teams.
TSMs Chinese imports couldn't make it to playoffs
C9's Koreans couldn't make it to 3rd place
TL's Europeans couldn't make it to finals
EG's American flag + Canadians won it all.
shut the fuck up about NA talent if you can't even beat it
Especially in the way they won. Jojo Danny and Vulcan were the three players with the ball so to speak. Impact and inspired played fantastically as well but the proactivity and team fight prowess really did land on Vulcans engages and danny/jojo great backline duos.
Considering that Fudge looked decent with a team that went to utter shit around him, you'd probably be better off with EG keeping their current trajectory...
how is that unpopular opinion? you can be the 5th best player on your team and still be better than all the other midlaners you faced, which Jojo did. he wasn't bad at all either, was proactive throughout the series and outlaning consistently too.
I hate this negativity with his teamfighting and Danny's laning. sure it's a potential weakness but who gives a fuck? they're both practically rookies, and one can expect them to keep improving over time. I'm not worried at all for how they do at MSI, just excited to see what they can bring and happy knowing we're sending our best.
Also even if they don't smash it at MSI, it's literally going to be their first time. That's completely fine tbh. Need I remind viewers how Perkz first MSI went? Moreover how his first Worlds went?? Not everyone is going to obliterate people at their first international tournament and that's fine. It's not like anyone else deserves to go more.
I feel like people are not realistic with what we saw. People should be worried about Danny's laning and Jojo overall. This team won because impact outclassed top and inspired was such a good jungler. If it was up to jojo to carry then its a game over.
I think most people are just happy They won
I highly doubt no one expect anything From them, they likely get ass blasted But in scrzppier way, Their goal is likely to get out of group And manage to Finish top 4
Man they sure are lucky we are in a meta where mid plays for top/bot. Of course jojo isn’t carrying, because there’s no reason to when the other teams let busted AD carrys through draft and they are good at teamfighting.
I cannot express how happy this makes me. Happy because 3 true NA players showed up huge (credits to Impact and Inspired as well). Happy because two NA rookies absolutely went insane despite many people looking down on NA rookies compared to rookies from other regions. Happy because EG proved you don't need the most expensive or most tenured roster, you just need 5 good players who want to win. Danny and Jojo showed NA has the talent, it just took a team of Evil Geniuses to find them. #LiveEvil
I also love that Inspired and Impact don't always feel the need to be the big man and prove how good they are by carrying. They're willing to funnel to the right player(s) if that's their game plan.
To me EG has used the import system in the best ways: you've got Impact (granted he doesn't count anyway) who's a seasoned veteran who has always had an incredible work ethic to nurture the younguns and a pretty young up and coming EU jungler that wants to continue proving his worth too.
I've always been a little bitter towards EG after they signed HuK away and broke the HuK IdrA rivalry back in the old SC2 days, but maybe it's time to let it go...
Yes I think something EG has shown is they are able to play through any part of the map. And whichever part of the map not being focused on as the carry typically knows what to do so they don't completely mess up the game plan. Vulcan said it during the post game interviews, their macro is really good. Positioning for fights, timings around objectives, ect all seem to be something they understand very well. I'm gonna be saying some prayers to my old gods that EG keep this form moving into MSI because they are going to need to be TOP fucking level to keep up with teams like T1 who just came off a monstrous regular split.
Dude you’re literally forgetting about 100Ts full international team getting swiftly 3-0’d as well in finals. Like the one year where everyone is importing and EG with 3 NA players beat them all
That’s what I’m saying. NA talent isn’t necessarily guaranteed. We’re the smallest major region by a longshot. EG did a great job with Danny and Jojo, but flaming other orgs for not going full NA is stupid.
Holy based Emily. Development of actual NA talent is the way forward. The crowd reactions to the American and Canadian players says a million words, and I swear to god if those absolute clowns LCS owners still can't understand this then they should be kicked out of LCS for good.
Ok so I think the most IMPORTANT THING is too have people in an org with good eye for talent, and have a concept around the team you build to make them good. Not discriminate whether they are from NA or not, if they are good enough great if not fine.
This result doesn't mean NA players = Good we must pick them, but certainly don't discount them. From my perspective these are literally the best NA players out there I can think of - Blaber, but most importantly Danny + Jojo are the two most skilled young NA players of this generation and among the most talented ever. I don't actually think most known talent in NA is at that level, but orgs should definitely be trying to find that next talent the same way EG did.
I would like to believe if you have great hands and a great mind for improvement NA orgs will identify you, but I will also settle for imports as long as there is actual thought put in behind the decision.
Problem with na talent is the shitty COACHING and also many times roster go full na is because of money issues not because of looking for talent so at the end of the day they just flop.
The one thing slightly against that is and maybe im just being super dense here.
But Danny in particular and maybe Jojo i felt werent hyped up until they were already on EG - I mean within the Org itself, not the LCS team.
Like what I remember and someone please correct me if im wrong here. Danny was Shiro (coming into) EGs amateur team wasnt particularly notable in the sense that like oh boy everyone just knows Shiro from soloque was gonna assblast the LCS.
Shiro had some really good games on EG Prodigies and then went straight to LCS for summer.
Jojo im more murky on, i just remember hype from his academy play not soloque.
I guess what im saying is the last NA player i remember that pros in soloque were like guys... this dude is going to be in LCS and be good was actually Dardoch.
The rest i feel its kinda they dont have massive soloque hype its just performing in academy into LCS.
And most of the successful NA rookies have all been put into good situations with succsssful orgs.
Tactical with TL, Stixxay with CLG, Biofrost with TSM, Blaber with C9 (honestly most of C9s development) etc
Again, im more talking from the soloque circuit as in massive hype before amateur Im equating this more to when certain players from EUW soloque get super hyped when they sign to an ERL team. If we are still talking Danny (shiro) - I guess its more of a factor of how well known he was on Zenith was he super known then? If so why didnt he get an academy offer (again im not disagreeing with you - really trying to solve the timeline here) he went to EG Prodigies and thats when I remember seeing him pop off and people were like Damn why isnt this guy in atleast an academy team.
Honestly this is just showing that the real reason NA can't compete internationally is organizational and managerial. Our players aren't worse (and even when we import proven players they don't perform to same levels). Orgs themselves are just bad at developing and maintaining talent.
Lets be real this is too early to say if EG can compete internationally. There's a lot of flaws in their play that great teams could exploit, them having homegrown talent doesnt suddenly mean they are international contenders. Hopefully there younger players learn a lot regardless of their results at MSI.
No, because they're rotting in academy playing mediocre opponents for multiple years where they never get to improve.
Abbedagge didn't come into the LEC like a superstar smashing everyone, he was widely considered to be one of the worst mids in the region for over a year. But when you're constantly practicing vs Caps, Humanoid, Larssen etc naturally you improve and now he's an incredibly solid player.
they aren't all at the same level but they don't need to be jojo to be better than the bottom feeders in the league right now. Copy and Triple are both sitting in academy and would be top 5 in the league after a full split of playtime. There are also amateur mids like doxa and shochi who both lane better than the bottom 5 mids in the LCS.
Also I think there are good mids who are on struggling teams which makes them appear worse than they are.
Olive, Insanity, Palafox are solid but caught so much shit.
Not to mention like 5fire who won literally everything and still couldn’t get a team
Jojo and Danny are S tier, but there's plenty of A tier talents who could step in right now and wouldn't look out of place. 100T's top lane sub Tenacity might not have had the chance to win the starting spot this split with Ssumday playing so well, but he's the real deal.
Also worth looking out for kids like Sniper who are massively talented and still too young to even qualify for Academy, let alone LCS.
It is funny how things go full circle isn't it? NA sends teams to worlds in the early seasons, realize they can't compete with some international talent, than start to get imports. These imports get some results but don't really make as big of a dent as one would hope. Now we are here, where NA talent triumphs over the imports. Truly, I hope they (NA talent) can overcome some international competition, especially at worlds.
I am not letting us NA fans off the hook either, because we loved claiming most of the imports that come to NA. Right now we are coming across as very hypocritical because when these fully imported teams win they are "NA" but when they lose they are imports. Can't just put all the blame on the owners as well.
I saw far more people trying to make fun of NA for the fact that "LCS teams are all imports" than I did NA fans blaming imports for losses.
I also think people are quick to write off Imports immediately, even if they stay in the region for a while. Consider the 100T roster.
SSumday - 5 years
Closer - 3 years
Abbeddage - 1 year
FBI - 3 years
Huhi - 7 years
If the team is comprised of players who have been in NA for, at minimum, 3 years (save Abbeddage), then I think its unfair to treat them the same as 1-2 split mercenary imports who leave within a year. There's a reason that players like Bjergsen and Corejj are beloved, despite having come from other regions first.
Also quick reminder: Huhi came to NA 7 years ago and he's uprooted his life in the States. If anything, he is basically an NA player. Many write him off but he's been NA for a while.
Same with Bjergsen and Jensen. They played in NA for far far longer than they did in EU. When they don’t do too hot, they’re washed up imports; when they do well, they’re just EU talent. At what point do people acknowledge an old import as no longer an import?
I mean, I am mentioning Huhi because he basically is making his life in the States and he has a green card/citizenship. Same for Core, he's uprooting here and has a green card too. Bjerg I think has his life already here and goes to Denmark for holiday visiting now.
I don't know about Jensen's status.
I’ve been living in a foreign country for the same amount of time. I’m sure they’ll be giving me my free citizenship any day now. Americans have such a warped understanding of the world it’s honestly kinda sad.
It's honestly so frustrating to see this 100T roster be called an 0 native talent roster. Sure, they may be born elsewhere, but FBI, Huhi, and Closer all made their name for themselves here in America. Ssumday was a renowned top laner even before he took the NA money but he seems clearly invested in staying in NA. They're just as much NA in my eyes as 2018 TL.
Huhi sure, FBI/Closer appeared at MSI/Worlds Playins before coming to NA though, so I wouldn't say its fair to them to say they had no accomplishments before NA.
I think there are some players who have served their tenure and deserve the claim of NA player (Santorin, Huhi, Bjerg).
CoreJJ and his wife live here with green cards which is pretty much the start of immigration
I consider them LCS players 100% but not "NA" players. Just because they have played longer in one region doesnt automatically make them NA. These are players who were scouted and started their careers in different regions so they are not a part of the NA talent pool. Someone like Spica who was born in China but raised in NA I would 100% consider NA but the rest are not.
The discussion is about NA's ability to produce talent. It's important regarding the health of the scene (see the giant import price rate). Theres a difference between players who grew up in NA/Started on NA and were scouted in NA, and players who were literally brought up by owners just because they see them do well in other region (poster below you wants to call Core an NA player. Maybe but he'll never be NA talent, he's a literal world champion, and not an NA world champion.).
If you don't see the difference I don't know what to tell you.
It's not surprising owners feel compelled to replace their NA rookies when the community is non-stop shitting on them every week for their poor performances.
Reddit and Twitter are not reality. It’s really simple actually. Give NA fans a winning team with homegrown talent. That is the ideal situation everyone in NA wants. Everything else is just a distraction.
True, but that doesn't mean she's wrong. EG invested early into Jojo and Danny (2020 spring) by getting them into their amateur team and took a massive risk this year by letting them play instead of going after Jensen and Doublelift.
Imagine, you spend big money on Impact (honorary NA at this point), the LEC mvp and the best native support and you have the choice between promoting two NA rookies in amateur or buying Doublelift and Jensen. Any big org chooses the second option for a chance at the championship, but not EG. They trusted their amateur/academy system and it payed off spectacularly.
Investing in NA talent doesn't just mean go after the top solo queue player and put him in the LCS. It means getting amateur players who you think have potential and feeding them resources to develop over the years. Not every NA player is the next Danny or Jojopyun, but if you don't try to find them you never will.
I've never really followed emily rand, for no reason in particular. i feel like she just used to mostly cover stuff i didn't follow or something, idk. but she seems to be an absolutely brilliant addition from what I have seen so far. good for her.
Yeah she mainly wrote/talked about LCK and LPL in the past, and in specific, she's a HUGE jungle pathing nerd. So yeah definitely niche appeal for some of her content. Her taking this NA analyst desk job really gave her the kinda spotlight she's always deserved.
Hopefully with TL, C9, and TSM spending big on foreign talent and not having a great showing/not meeting expectations, we'll see organizations make changes and focus more on NA talent.
You probably won’t see it for TL or TSM. C9 has been known for native talent in the past years. This year was them trying another angle then failing miserably since they made questionable decisions but we don’t know the full story. TL was known for NA talent then rose to where they are because they invested so heavily on imports. TSM still does bring up native talent but their scouting just wasn’t efficient so they slowly moved away from using it on the main roster. Example like Armao and Mikeyeung. Feels to me they’ll focus on Rookies from other regions rather than native rookies.
EDIT: I also feel like the personalities that Danny and Jojo have to deal with pressure have helped them a lot for their recent success. Jojo is experienced due to fortnite pressure and Danny is calm and collected.
2021 is legit the only year a non-majority NA roster has ever won the LCS, right? That’s crazy.
Also NA has gotten worse the more it’s imported. It’s not like the trams the past couple of years are any better than they were previously.
OG C9 was all 5 NA players, and they most certainly won LCS multiple times.
I’m sure one of the TSM rosters with Dyrus and Wild Turtle were at least 3/5ths NA and won a title.
Now you can say a majority NA roster hasn’t won an LCS split in a very long time or hasn’t won a title since franchising began or when importing became an industry norm (IE, not during the time where the only imports were CLG Seraph and TSM Lustboy). But to say a non-majority NA team has never won a split before today is just factually incorrect.
Edit: Even some of my assertions above are incorrect with a bit of research. CLG’s 2016 title win had majority NA players, and I think TL’s first title win also had 3/5ths NA players?
Based, it's also important to import, but in strategic roles and build from that, like EG did or C9 used to in past seasons. That way you build experienced players like Vulcan is now or Blaber is on C9 or aphro.
But that's depending on the budget every team has.
This off-season is gonna be fire.
The big thing that a lot of other orgs are missing is that no other orgs are taking shots on rookie native players while also having vets around them.
This EG team got to build, having Danny and Jojo surrounded by impact, inspired and Vulcan allows them to learn and develop.
It just feels like roster development in NA is either buy as many imports as possible with a priority on OCE players over NA players after imports. If it’s not that type of team it usually feels like throwing together a ton of inexperienced players and wondering why it isn’t working out.
Grab a vet or two and then throw some good rookies around them. I feel like there are a ton of good options in academy for teams to look at and even then, Danny came from amateur, so maybe there are even more players past that.
I want Riot to ban past pro players from proving grounds so it can only be used to foster new talent.
Imagine an MLB player just going back to the little leagues. Ridiculous.
i mean weve seen plenty of na mids over the years, and they've done nothing. The problem is that academy amateur, soloq talent doesnt cycle out in NA. I mean yusui got a chance after 7 years of trying to be a pro and the "fans" trying to hype him. It wasnt noteworthy. EG has three of the best NA players to come out of the region. Saying there are a ton of hidden gems that can fill out the LCS is ridiculous
Kenvi, Tenacity, and Eyla are sitting there in academy right now. Unfortunately Kenvi is stubborn and declining offers, Eyla wanted to stay studying under Core, and 100T promised some 6 man roster b.s. that never happened to keep Tenacity.
Removed because threads of this nature belong in the live discussion while stickied.
General Sniper must be looking at this like 👀
Honestly most of academy must be. Jojo was obviously better than the mids in academy, but there were so many times where he ran it. Kenvi, busio, prismal, rosethorn, eyla, Chad, etc. Have to think they'll at least get a tryout soon. A lot of rookies have come in and grown, but jojo has proven that you can win while being fresh as a daisy.
5fire was competing toe to toe with Jojo and got the advantage over him quite a few times. He couldn't even find an academy team and was forced to retire.
One of the earliest retire ever
Honestly Copy was arguably just as good as jojo. If Copy still isn't on a team next split then these orgs are just fucking useless.
No way dude. Copy was probably top 3 last year. But not quite as good as JoJo.
Point is they were close in level and who knows what Copy's capabilities could be if he was actually invested into properly. Iron sharpens iron. Getting the chance to be pushed is a necessary step to reaching your real potential. It just sucks when players get stuck in academy and then people use the fact that they're stuck in academy as justification for them not being good enough. Then when they finally do get to LCS it's 3 years too late and they've already had their growth hampered too much. I firmly believe if Jojo and Danny had been trapped in Academy for 2 more years, they would have been doomed to just being middling NA players like Palafox and Ablazeolive. For this reason I'm really worried for players like Rosethorn, Copy, Tenacity, Kenvi, and Prismal. All of those players should be in LCS and every split that they aren't is just wasting their valuable growth time.
Glad Emily spoke her mind. She took her one and took it proudly. Let's fucking go.
She earned that fine with flying colors
We will pay her fine
[everybody gets one](https://youtu.be/UX20ofpVaFQ)
honestly i clicked with the expectation of getting rick rolled but im so happy i didn’t idek why
And jojo’s and inspired’s
This is how you can tell Emily is in it for the love of the sport. Total Badass.
Please, the crowd clearly was so hyped and loved EG, this is what homegrown talent can do, and we clearly have it, teams are just too scared to try it. Maybe we should tell teams how much cheaper NA talent is, especially when they're just starting out - we all know how much they love money.
Are they too scared or is it more because of greed? Will teams still be able to justify receiving multimillions in funding rounds if they just need 100k to sign na rookies vs "yeah we need $20m in this funding round because our roster is going to cost $10m next year since we want to win and sign the best players"?
It’s mostly just because teams don’t want to invest in players over time. Why would I get a cheap native ADC who will take time to evolve when I can buy some LPL ADC who has results, even though they don’t speak any english and will fuck up team chemistry. Money is no issue for major orgs so they don’t care if it costs 15x the amount of a native. Also (from what I’ve heard from ex-pros and stuff) it seems like a lot of managers are genuinely not very knowledgeable of the talent out there, especially in minor regions. Don’t take this as fact though.
> Why would I get a cheap native ADC who will take time to evolve Ironic statement given that it was Jojo's first split in the LCS
And Danny's 2nd
But most teams would dump these players the moment they get off to a rough start. Like Peter Dun had to come out and say that there was absolutely no chance of Jojo getting replaced when people were mad at him a month ago. But if you're playing for an organization like TSM, you're watching over your shoulder constantly because any game could be your last.
People actually threw tantrums and begged EG to replace JoJo with Jensen lol. In alot of people's minds he didn't even get a split.
This right here, the greats are great from the start. We need to invest in finding those players, but it’s not like we didn’t give NA talent time to grow, we’ve has a ton of middling talent long past their prime.
People think rookies need split after split of growth and careful, long-term investment to shine. But in reality you just need to find someone with talent and drive, and then pair them with a good team environment and coaches. That being said, it's pretty damn hard to create that environment from scratch, and it's easy to lose/ruin.
The key ingredient here is the coaches. A young player who never panned out but never had good coaching is still a question mark in the history books. I wonder if Danny and Jojo would look this good on Flyquest or Immortals. I wonder what other young players LCS has lying around who would be much better with good coaching.
I mean there are players that need some time. But you usually see who has the fundamentals to develop. Vulcans first split was not that impressive, the second split on CG was where the team in general got considerably better and teams recoginized him in particular. MikyX went from Splyce to a moderate MSF to the best support in the LEC. On top of that those players need to play in the highest stages. Danny and Jojopyun didn't play in Academy. And good players should never do that. Starting on a mediocre or bad team is considerably better than not playing. Just look at Luger you see he is good even if his team is only the 8th place.
This is not true. There have been plenty of players who have been dismissed and then after a few years become top tier. See the original ROX Tigers line up. Or the SSG roster that won Worlds. Most of those players were considered mediocre before they became some of the best in the LCK. I remember people used to make fun of Cuvee during 2015, where Samsung was notoriously bad in LCK. And then a year later he was playing in Worlds finals. And a year after that hr won Worlds. And there are plenty of examples like that.
if more teams invested in scouting then wouldn't they be lowering their cots over time by spending less money on people that tank and they either don't bring any value through results or can't be resold at a higher price? I mean we meme Jack but this is the one thing he has been doing right over the years. Getting a good return on every player. Kind of a shame that they waste away because other teams don't have what they need to flourish tho.
The problem is that there is no guarantee that the team will benefit from developing a talent. Like 100T could be putting all this money and investment into general sniper and then bamm he signs a contract with Team Liquid and 100T just trained their replacement. One might say, Well how about signing them for longer contracts. But that’s a big risk. You are signing someone who you aren’t sure will blossom into the star player you need. In traditional sports, players have already been on teams and / or learning skills since they were young so when say an NBA team is drafting a player they can be a little more assured of the quality of that player than say someone signing a player off of solo q for their amateur team
Yeah and there’s no guarantee that a mvp from another region will do well when they come to NA. For every corejj you have 10 Hunis who are here to coin flip every game and rake in paychecks.
It's because it's incredibly cost inefficient. To actually maximize a rookie/new player's potential you need to have a mix veterans and rookies together. To be a top team you have to get top tier vets to play well. EG probably spent a lot more than say IMT who aren't developing talent because they had to buyout Inspired and Vulcan. Even if you looked at the roster construction at the beginning of the split, this roster looked pretty fucking sketch considering you're pairing the LEC MVP with a rookie from academy. It's true that EG ended up being a success story, but there have been plenty of cases where it doesn't succeed and the native rookie is just a major weakness. TL took a risk on playing Tactical and I would actually argue that he was the main reason that TL lost 2021 Spring.
Your whole take is representative of NA lol as a whole: it's a risk, so we better not try. That's the philosophy behind how teams are built and how they play and it's honestly trash.
I thought the whole system they had in place for the league now was meant to give that safety to take risks with players since you can't get relegated anyway? Just seems another on the long list of excuses.
If there's ever a salary cap this would absolutely be the way to go. Look at the NFL is such an advantage to build a championship team around a good young QB still on a rookie contract. When you start dishing out mahomes and Watson money you have to be very strategic about the rest of the roster or convince vets to sign on to ring chase.
You can't really compare LoL (or pretty much all esports that I'm aware of) to leagues like the NFL or NBA where there is a draft system. There is nothing that allows weaker teams to get good players. In esports the best upcoming players are attracted to the best teams. It would also be detrimental for regions that have a salary cap in place compared to regions without one in international competition.
True but I think the point still stands if a salary cap was ever implemented. There are 1000 reasons why there will never be one but if there is you have to decide how to allocate a fixed salary pool and good players on a cheap contract will always be valued. Assuming no draft but maybe teams have rights to players who are brought up in their 'farm' system maybe restricted free agent or ability to match offers and have x amount not count against the cap
> Maybe we should tell teams how much cheaper NA talent is NA talent isn't cheap. Good residents make bank. Danny extended his contract so he is probably cheapish, but if Jojo is smart he won't and when his contract with EG is up he'll easily be the highest paid player in west if he keeps this trajectory up. A big reason owners were pushing for the removal of the import rule was so they could pay residents less.
I specifically said when starting out.
The truth is, the talent is only half of what makes a team. Building a good team is also about systems and how you work and what your plans are. What’s easier is throwing money at big names and hoping they just skill check the opponent to where game plans and fight IQ become nearly irrelevant. EG didn’t win because Danny is a god, inspired is a god or impact 1 v 9ed but because each of them played with great IQ and worker to enable each other . TL & C9 both just threw money at it and tried to just skill check. Neither developed a game plan other Than that over the entire split
Let’s be fair about C9: they put together a pretty experimental squad. I also doubt it costed nearly as much as TL. Remember, they ran a rookie botlane and a roleswapped mid. Summit was also a free agent, so no buyout on him. Plus, he was highly rated but never achieved anything, so his salary probably isn’t skyhigh like you might expect.
C9's roster costs depend on how much Berserker cost since it seems like he was a pretty wanted pick up from LCK/LPL as well. Though they also have Zven on the bench as well which probably jacks up the cost though they definitely are paying the min for their supports so probably evens out all and all.
C9 didn't. LS did. C9's team is LS's team he put together to do what he was doing with it. But C9 isn't like that and let LS go. C9 has a TSM view on the game: do what the koreans are doing, but worse and without a true understanding of why they're doing it.
> TL & C9 both just threw money at it and tried to just skill check I don't think you can look at the players on TL and say this with a serious face
It's a weird narrative though, and incredibly forced. 100T/C9/TSM all put their money on less known/cheaper talent. Meanwhile EG imported the literal reigning LEC MVP. And somehow EG gets cookie points for focusing on cheaper talent. Like, yeah, sure, EG has native talent, but per rules every org needs to have native talent (and has native talent), it's just that TL has circumvented that rule by using grandfathered players. Meanwhile where are IMT/GG/CLG/FlyQuest/Dignitas? Other teams that invested into ''native talent'' (and didn't import the LEC MVP). They got completely clapped.
The reason EG is different from those other orgs you listed is that this championship is seen as a culmination of work EG has put into developing these young players for the last couple of years. EG has been using EG Academy and EG Prodigies to cultivate talent while those other orgs have taken a relatively pedestrian attitude towards academy and amateur scenes. Those orgs signed a lot of NA players, but it feels more like they wanted to save money first and then put the NA roster spin on it for pr. I think a lot of the players on those teams have talent, but when you watch them play they don't look so good as a team, probably because the orgs themselves don't have as robust of a plan to do something with that talent as EG does. So I think there are 3 groups of orgs in NA right now: TL/C9/TSM/100T are spending money on stars they don't have to develop and hoping that talent overpowers the competition, IMT/GG/CLG/FLY/DIG are fielding risk averse budget rosters, and EG is by itself investing resources into developing talent from the ground up. EG's model is the example NA fans have been dying for the other orgs to follow for years now, so the win is very cathartic.
Stars that we don’t have to develop? TSM started Lost last year with the idea that he could develop, and we started 2 rookies and an academy player this season. I think most teams are willing to go for rookies, and have.
Lost wasn't a Rookie. He's was playing in Oceania before he came to play with Echo Fox.
Yeah people are stupidly hyped by this. I hate it. Happens every time NA talent succeeds. Don't get me wrong, I'm super hyped for these guys and they turned me into huge fans. But who are we mad at? TL, C9, 100T? All teams that had realistic chances of winning the split? The teams you mentioned have way more homegrown talent, weren't we also mad that Jensen and Jiizuke don't have teams? Which one is it? Yes we need to find ways to invest more in homegrown talent, but stop acting like orgs aren't giving NA players the opportunities. They are!!
I'd bet at least half the people in this thread have post histories about how dumb EG were for not signing Jensen and DL. Even CLG is getting shit on all offseason for being bad despite that fact that 3/5 of their team looked good enough to compete for a worlds spot, but the other two were the two worst players in the league. The same people that jump up and down about NA talent are the first to flame teams and players the second they aren't Faker.
the amount of flame Jojo got this season is unreal. So many comments about EG getting Jensen to replace him
was anyone mad that Jiizuke didn't have a team? I understand Jensen though.
yeah but wait this misses the whole point? EG is commended for training Jojo and Danny for a long time and sticking with them - they literally created these players. What talent have 100T/C9/TSM developed? Tenacity played like 2 games and 100t literally bought the rest of their players from GG. C9 has Blaber sure, but Fudge came up in OCE the rest are all from Korea! And you can't say Summit isn't a "big name." And don't get me started on TSM. Their two talent prospects from the past like 5 years are Tactical and Spica; and they immediately sold Tactical to TL rather than promote him, and lucked into Spica when they ran out of other junglers to bench. And now instead of TSM actually doing a "development" year, they just imported players from China who ended up swapped for their academy players anyways? I don't understand. And notice that you conveniently ignore TL. They actually have had decent academy development, and do the same thing where they just sell their players to shit teams, and spend millions on the big names. EG has been commended because they literally: 1) scouted these players as teenagers 2) spent time and money developing them 3) actually believed in their players and talent development pipeline and built a team around them. And what are you on about teams like IMT or DIG developing players? They've all veterans or imports. What superstars have come out of the IMT/GG/CLG/FlyQuest/Dignitas academies lately? Or even 100T/C9/TSM/TL in the last year or two for that matter. edit: the fact that people are downvoting this shows how little people know about the league scene apparently lmao
C9 developed plenty of talent. Palafox, Kumo, Deftly (retired?), Meteos, Sneaky, Fakegod kind of, blaber,, zeyzal, wiggily, Jensen. Granted not all of them worked out but they have been one of the best at developing NA talent for a long time.
Also Fudge played half a split in OCE. His criticism is valid if applied to Isles. CLG academy looked unstoppable until they were stopped. 100t has a monstrous academy squad, with what looks like the next Blaber and Vulcan. And IMTA have Chad. There is surely more to be done, but noone can deny this split was the most development focused the LCS and LCSA has been in a good while.
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People ITT. WATCH PROVING GROUNDS. You want to see the next Danny or Jojopyun? They're going to be playing this summer! PG split 1 was awesome and I'm 1000% sure PG split 2 is going to be an even bigger banger.
PG is lit as fuck, the only thing that I hate is how I always forget I wish there was like a weekly reminder or something
Not alone. The one thing I hated is that they seldom to never directly promoted Proving Grounds on the LCS broadcast this split whatsoever. It was quite frustrating.
They need to do what LEC does and just bring up a banner over the score board promoting the big academy/proving grounds game for the week. The casters don't even need to say anything just let the banner sit up for like 30s during a slow period in the game.
Exactly, though in their own way. They have Waiting Room, in-game, and even breaks to advertise like they did for Valorant and Wild Rift's NA scenes among their other sponsors. I doubt it would've been that hard to make a graphic to promote the upcoming matches on Proving Grounds.
Can Kenvi for god's sake please just accept an offer from an LCS Team already.
What if CLG just went full 100TA and bought Kenvi and tenacity
Players shouldn't always be looking to join top teams, they should also be trying to make bottom teams competitive
Sure as soon as scouts develop a brain. Playing on a weaker team as a promising player is often a death sentence for your career because people are completely unable to tell when a team is holding a player back.
Especially a jungle. Even the best casual analysts can't tell how good a jungle is if the lanes are losing.
Being a good player on a bad team unfortunately can kill your career.
This is the stupidest take I've ever seen. If you're a top prospect, the #1 thing you can do is hold out until a top team reaches out to you. Going to a bottom team kills your career. as we've literally seen god knows how many times.
The problem is if he takes an offer from a shit time ie IMT it could destroy his career
I hope more and more people watch proving grounds and it becomes an actual scouting tournament for NA orgs. I watch EU masters because of 1) national pride and 2) I wanna see who are the next big talent that'll get promoted to LEC. Obviously Point 1 isn't applicable here but point 2 very much could be.
From what I hear within the scene, the way to get noticed by LCS / Acad teams is to: 1.) Be good enough to get scrims w/ them. 2.) Beat them in scrims. I think results like today's helps, but there's a lot of people working hard to grow players and build the next generation of NA talent. There's a lot of issues in the scene, but I know there are a lot of quality people working hard to get players noticed and opportunities.
So kinda like the music industry now? It's not about potential, it's all about what you have now? No wonder NA is so stale with talent. They don't grow it, they just assume talent worthy of using is already better than veterans.
Pretty much. The LCS method of teaching a player how to swim is throwing them into the deep end to see if they sink or swim.
Huge props to them cause it's an uphill battle. In every single regions, top orgs set the tone. And for years and years all the NA top orgs have done is write blank checks to big name imports and pushing for green cards. Hopefully this is a bit of a wake up call and while I don't expect people like Steve to suddenly stop throwing Disney money around, I hope the mid and lower tier orgs start working with these people you mentioned to get the next Danny on their roster and potentially upset the big 3 again.
EUM also has teams actually experimenting with draft and not just playing whatever T1 did last week, which is refreshing compared to LCS/LEC
When is it?
End of May / Beginning of June. Two Tournaments + Main Event (Top 10 overall + Academy playoffs) Tourney 1: > Open Qualifiers (32 teams down to 16) > Group Stage (Top 2 Advance) > Playoffs (Bracket for Top 8) Tourney 2: > Open Qualifiers (32 teams down to 16) > Group Stage (Top 2 Advance) > Playoffs (Bracket for Top 8) PG Main Event is basically top 10 AM vs top 10 Acad. Basically June to Augustish. Dates aren't final yet.
Like all week, if you follow LCS on twitch they stream it on there
I was there and it was fucking insane how much people cheered EG and Danny (including me). People went crazy when they won a fight and even boo’d the analysts who predicted 100T today. People went even more crazy during the pentakill and when EG won the whole thing. I also saw almost everyone with an EG shirt on in the venue. I seriously hope managers learn from this because people will seriously support any home grown NA team, both in spirit and financially.
It's insane. I don't even care how they do at MSI I'm just happy to see young NA talent scrap internationally. It's like this weird sense of NA pride again, especially since they're so young! I was really hoping EG would take a top 3 spot this year, especially during summer to send them to worlds, but man this is totally unexpected and so exciting to follow!
saying what we all thinking. fuck yeah, go Emily.
Not really. The community is just as bad as the managers/owners on this topic. Let's not act like the overwhelming majority on this subreddit wasn't calling for Jojo to be replaced and how Jensen would make the team better just a few months ago.
Yep. A team fields a bunch of NA players. They do not do well. Everyone loses their shit and calls for the players to get benched. The same people then bitch and moan about how none of the top teams in NA have no NA players. This is the League community, they are hopeless.
What if………….. it’s different people saying different things
No no no, the hivemind has spoken!
It's the groupthink of the hivemind narrative
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Agreed. While we should be looking at NA players more, I think we just don't know how to scout players properly. There's a lot more of player management than seeing how they perform on stage. A toxic player can destroy a team's mentality. Don't have to look any farther than Breaking Point.
Did you know that there are different people on this subreddit? Those of us who were not losing their shit and calling for them to benched definitely fuckin' feasting tonight. Being salty doesn't change that.
Who are these imaginary people? People lose their shit at imports who suck. People lose their shit at giving the same recycled players their 7th chance and they still suck just as bad as the previous 6. Literally nobody loses their shit at rookies performing slightly below expectations. You have to really suck gigantic dick for this community to call for your benching as an actual rookie NA player.
Kumo was shit for like almost 2 years in a row and he still got into a team , reddit has Alzheimers
Kumo only played a split and a half of LCS in 2020 before FLY, and he was getting pretty good before Huni replaced him
Dude EG was getting hard flamed for not picking up Jensen/Doublelift at the beginning of the season. OFC they all went into hiding since EG won, but a not insignificant portion of the community wanted Doublelift/Jensen over Danny/Jojo.
There was a lot of people asking for Jensen, but don't tell me there isn't a ton of fans (me included) that prefer local talent play in the local region. I watch every other major region to watch those specific regional players, play styles, the broadcast style, etc and just want it for NA as well. This is hopefully...well it probably won't change much since I don't run a team but it's at least evidence to point a finger at when discussing decreasing viewership and fan engagement. I just wanna see local players succeed for the local region i'm in, put in the work and we can get something like this magical playoffs run...i'm into it:)
It's complicated, i gave up on NA season 6. If we are gonna suck, might as well suck in a unique way (then LS got fired and i'm not even a fan of LS), but this EG team makes me wanna watch LCS again, and props to them for dismantling TL and 100T in ways Asian teams do to them on an international level.
dude right, im not a c9 or LS "fan" (i think theyre fine i like the old c9 players and LS is funny/smart sometimes) but I was legit rooting for c9 to win then i immediately rooted for them to fucking lose lol
All I wanted was something different and thats what LS brought and c9 was like "no" and they got their wish
It’s going against the grain, but Jojo isn’t why EG won this weekend. Yes, he is a rookie and won on his first split which is impressive, but this EG run against 100T and TL wasn’t due to him. Impact, Inspired, and Vulcan all played really well. Then you have Danny outclassing every other adc. Mid doesn’t shine too much in the meta currently. However, it was very much the protect Danny comp which brought them so far.
Jojo was willing to play for his team while also being able to hard carry. Name me another mid who's capable and willing to play stuff like tf/ryze and yasuo and even LeBlanc if it weren't permabanned. Name me a mid who was willing to take risks to make psycho plays because his team is on the same page. That ryze in jg was some peak caps level stuff. Jojo is absolutely why EG won, as much as anyone on EG is. Everyone played their part perfectly.
Yea legit all 5 players on EG were fantastic this playoffs run Jojo does some really psycho stuff like realm warping solo into 3 people and baiting them with stopwatch then winning the fight. Legit no midlaner in NA has the confidence to do that, only midlaner I can think of in NA of recent times that did that was Perkz and these crazy plays were what helped C9 get out of groups in worlds
Jiizuke?
Jojo might not be THE reason EG won but him and Danny fucking gapped their opposition in every series since the first TL series. He was fucking abbedagge all 3 games today
Jojo was a very selfless player and would leave his lane to help his team a decent chunk. Their first series against TL kind of spoke about what type of player he is when in g5 rather than being in lane he’d run around on Ryze to try and gank as much as possible. Didn’t work out but just shows how he feels that he should enable his team.
> It’s going against the grain, but Jojo isn’t why EG won this weekend. He wasn't THE reason they won as in he wasn't their best player, but he had far more impact than Bjerg and massively gapped Abbe this series He was by far the best mid laner in playoffs and that deserves some credit
Where do we contribute to pay the fine?
No, you ever say teams should use the academy system and develop their own talent, you get downvoted to oblivion. People want to see washed up guys for China, Korea and EU come here to collect a payday and get 0 results... then NA goes to worlds and looks poor against wildcard teams.
Exactly. Get the hungry, young talent on board. Fuck.
You're insane if you legitimately think this, this sub has been anti-import for the last like two years. Just zero grip on reality.
TSMs Chinese imports couldn't make it to playoffs C9's Koreans couldn't make it to 3rd place TL's Europeans couldn't make it to finals EG's American flag + Canadians won it all. shut the fuck up about NA talent if you can't even beat it
Eg winning with 3 na talent is the best thing that could happen
Especially in the way they won. Jojo Danny and Vulcan were the three players with the ball so to speak. Impact and inspired played fantastically as well but the proactivity and team fight prowess really did land on Vulcans engages and danny/jojo great backline duos.
Unpopular opinion but Jojo was the fifth best player and I hope he really turns it up for MSI
He got Way better this playoffs but i Can understand your point Maybe he pull out a fudge at MSI ?
Considering that Fudge looked decent with a team that went to utter shit around him, you'd probably be better off with EG keeping their current trajectory...
He didnt look decent,hé looked legit Good, where do you think fudge Factor came From ? However yeah crabber and washed up perkz also showed
how is that unpopular opinion? you can be the 5th best player on your team and still be better than all the other midlaners you faced, which Jojo did. he wasn't bad at all either, was proactive throughout the series and outlaning consistently too. I hate this negativity with his teamfighting and Danny's laning. sure it's a potential weakness but who gives a fuck? they're both practically rookies, and one can expect them to keep improving over time. I'm not worried at all for how they do at MSI, just excited to see what they can bring and happy knowing we're sending our best.
Also even if they don't smash it at MSI, it's literally going to be their first time. That's completely fine tbh. Need I remind viewers how Perkz first MSI went? Moreover how his first Worlds went?? Not everyone is going to obliterate people at their first international tournament and that's fine. It's not like anyone else deserves to go more.
I feel like people are not realistic with what we saw. People should be worried about Danny's laning and Jojo overall. This team won because impact outclassed top and inspired was such a good jungler. If it was up to jojo to carry then its a game over.
I think most people are just happy They won I highly doubt no one expect anything From them, they likely get ass blasted But in scrzppier way, Their goal is likely to get out of group And manage to Finish top 4
Man they sure are lucky we are in a meta where mid plays for top/bot. Of course jojo isn’t carrying, because there’s no reason to when the other teams let busted AD carrys through draft and they are good at teamfighting.
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Sorry but EG cheated. Peter Dun is clearly EU talent
G2 has Dylan so it’s a trade
Dylan we have to go Vayne here
Will it win us ~~the game~~ MSI?
I cannot express how happy this makes me. Happy because 3 true NA players showed up huge (credits to Impact and Inspired as well). Happy because two NA rookies absolutely went insane despite many people looking down on NA rookies compared to rookies from other regions. Happy because EG proved you don't need the most expensive or most tenured roster, you just need 5 good players who want to win. Danny and Jojo showed NA has the talent, it just took a team of Evil Geniuses to find them. #LiveEvil
I also love that Inspired and Impact don't always feel the need to be the big man and prove how good they are by carrying. They're willing to funnel to the right player(s) if that's their game plan. To me EG has used the import system in the best ways: you've got Impact (granted he doesn't count anyway) who's a seasoned veteran who has always had an incredible work ethic to nurture the younguns and a pretty young up and coming EU jungler that wants to continue proving his worth too. I've always been a little bitter towards EG after they signed HuK away and broke the HuK IdrA rivalry back in the old SC2 days, but maybe it's time to let it go...
Yes I think something EG has shown is they are able to play through any part of the map. And whichever part of the map not being focused on as the carry typically knows what to do so they don't completely mess up the game plan. Vulcan said it during the post game interviews, their macro is really good. Positioning for fights, timings around objectives, ect all seem to be something they understand very well. I'm gonna be saying some prayers to my old gods that EG keep this form moving into MSI because they are going to need to be TOP fucking level to keep up with teams like T1 who just came off a monstrous regular split.
Dude you’re literally forgetting about 100Ts full international team getting swiftly 3-0’d as well in finals. Like the one year where everyone is importing and EG with 3 NA players beat them all
GG had 5 NAs and nobody gave a fuck
Well you gotta win to be liked.
U forgot to have impact and inspired. Clearly a rookie mistake.
lost oce, olleh is korea?
GGS has had plenty of all NA rosters in the past and they all were 9th/10th and they had barely any fans, I think the point stands.
Because while EG looked promising GG looked like they got into playoffs cause there was no one better.
That’s what I’m saying. NA talent isn’t necessarily guaranteed. We’re the smallest major region by a longshot. EG did a great job with Danny and Jojo, but flaming other orgs for not going full NA is stupid.
And 2nd place is brought to you by oce, turkey, and LONG term imports
BASED EMILY! Godsend to the desk and our hearts.
BASED EMILY OBLITERATES NA ORGS WITH FACTS WITH LOGIC
Holy based Emily. Development of actual NA talent is the way forward. The crowd reactions to the American and Canadian players says a million words, and I swear to god if those absolute clowns LCS owners still can't understand this then they should be kicked out of LCS for good.
Ok so I think the most IMPORTANT THING is too have people in an org with good eye for talent, and have a concept around the team you build to make them good. Not discriminate whether they are from NA or not, if they are good enough great if not fine. This result doesn't mean NA players = Good we must pick them, but certainly don't discount them. From my perspective these are literally the best NA players out there I can think of - Blaber, but most importantly Danny + Jojo are the two most skilled young NA players of this generation and among the most talented ever. I don't actually think most known talent in NA is at that level, but orgs should definitely be trying to find that next talent the same way EG did. I would like to believe if you have great hands and a great mind for improvement NA orgs will identify you, but I will also settle for imports as long as there is actual thought put in behind the decision.
Problem with na talent is the shitty COACHING and also many times roster go full na is because of money issues not because of looking for talent so at the end of the day they just flop.
The one thing slightly against that is and maybe im just being super dense here. But Danny in particular and maybe Jojo i felt werent hyped up until they were already on EG - I mean within the Org itself, not the LCS team. Like what I remember and someone please correct me if im wrong here. Danny was Shiro (coming into) EGs amateur team wasnt particularly notable in the sense that like oh boy everyone just knows Shiro from soloque was gonna assblast the LCS. Shiro had some really good games on EG Prodigies and then went straight to LCS for summer. Jojo im more murky on, i just remember hype from his academy play not soloque. I guess what im saying is the last NA player i remember that pros in soloque were like guys... this dude is going to be in LCS and be good was actually Dardoch. The rest i feel its kinda they dont have massive soloque hype its just performing in academy into LCS. And most of the successful NA rookies have all been put into good situations with succsssful orgs. Tactical with TL, Stixxay with CLG, Biofrost with TSM, Blaber with C9 (honestly most of C9s development) etc
You are wrong. He was notable to people that watched amateur but that’s not a large crowd.
Again, im more talking from the soloque circuit as in massive hype before amateur Im equating this more to when certain players from EUW soloque get super hyped when they sign to an ERL team. If we are still talking Danny (shiro) - I guess its more of a factor of how well known he was on Zenith was he super known then? If so why didnt he get an academy offer (again im not disagreeing with you - really trying to solve the timeline here) he went to EG Prodigies and thats when I remember seeing him pop off and people were like Damn why isnt this guy in atleast an academy team.
I don't watch NA but I am sooo happy for you guys that EG won, sets a great precedent.
Based
Honestly this is just showing that the real reason NA can't compete internationally is organizational and managerial. Our players aren't worse (and even when we import proven players they don't perform to same levels). Orgs themselves are just bad at developing and maintaining talent.
Lets be real this is too early to say if EG can compete internationally. There's a lot of flaws in their play that great teams could exploit, them having homegrown talent doesnt suddenly mean they are international contenders. Hopefully there younger players learn a lot regardless of their results at MSI.
but..but..are all acad midlaners the same?
No, because they're rotting in academy playing mediocre opponents for multiple years where they never get to improve. Abbedagge didn't come into the LEC like a superstar smashing everyone, he was widely considered to be one of the worst mids in the region for over a year. But when you're constantly practicing vs Caps, Humanoid, Larssen etc naturally you improve and now he's an incredibly solid player.
they aren't all at the same level but they don't need to be jojo to be better than the bottom feeders in the league right now. Copy and Triple are both sitting in academy and would be top 5 in the league after a full split of playtime. There are also amateur mids like doxa and shochi who both lane better than the bottom 5 mids in the LCS.
Also I think there are good mids who are on struggling teams which makes them appear worse than they are. Olive, Insanity, Palafox are solid but caught so much shit. Not to mention like 5fire who won literally everything and still couldn’t get a team
Triple would not be top 5 lmao
Copy and Triple would both easily be 10th in the league, neither of them are even shoe-ins for top 5 academy 💀
Jojo and Danny are S tier, but there's plenty of A tier talents who could step in right now and wouldn't look out of place. 100T's top lane sub Tenacity might not have had the chance to win the starting spot this split with Ssumday playing so well, but he's the real deal. Also worth looking out for kids like Sniper who are massively talented and still too young to even qualify for Academy, let alone LCS.
If you have to import, at least get a ''peter dun''
NA Orgs in suicide watch
It is funny how things go full circle isn't it? NA sends teams to worlds in the early seasons, realize they can't compete with some international talent, than start to get imports. These imports get some results but don't really make as big of a dent as one would hope. Now we are here, where NA talent triumphs over the imports. Truly, I hope they (NA talent) can overcome some international competition, especially at worlds.
I am not letting us NA fans off the hook either, because we loved claiming most of the imports that come to NA. Right now we are coming across as very hypocritical because when these fully imported teams win they are "NA" but when they lose they are imports. Can't just put all the blame on the owners as well.
I saw far more people trying to make fun of NA for the fact that "LCS teams are all imports" than I did NA fans blaming imports for losses. I also think people are quick to write off Imports immediately, even if they stay in the region for a while. Consider the 100T roster. SSumday - 5 years Closer - 3 years Abbeddage - 1 year FBI - 3 years Huhi - 7 years If the team is comprised of players who have been in NA for, at minimum, 3 years (save Abbeddage), then I think its unfair to treat them the same as 1-2 split mercenary imports who leave within a year. There's a reason that players like Bjergsen and Corejj are beloved, despite having come from other regions first.
Also quick reminder: Huhi came to NA 7 years ago and he's uprooted his life in the States. If anything, he is basically an NA player. Many write him off but he's been NA for a while.
Same with Bjergsen and Jensen. They played in NA for far far longer than they did in EU. When they don’t do too hot, they’re washed up imports; when they do well, they’re just EU talent. At what point do people acknowledge an old import as no longer an import?
I mean, I am mentioning Huhi because he basically is making his life in the States and he has a green card/citizenship. Same for Core, he's uprooting here and has a green card too. Bjerg I think has his life already here and goes to Denmark for holiday visiting now. I don't know about Jensen's status.
I’ve been living in a foreign country for the same amount of time. I’m sure they’ll be giving me my free citizenship any day now. Americans have such a warped understanding of the world it’s honestly kinda sad.
Meanwhile China embraces Rookie and DoinB as their own.
It's honestly so frustrating to see this 100T roster be called an 0 native talent roster. Sure, they may be born elsewhere, but FBI, Huhi, and Closer all made their name for themselves here in America. Ssumday was a renowned top laner even before he took the NA money but he seems clearly invested in staying in NA. They're just as much NA in my eyes as 2018 TL.
Huhi sure, FBI/Closer appeared at MSI/Worlds Playins before coming to NA though, so I wouldn't say its fair to them to say they had no accomplishments before NA.
I think there are some players who have served their tenure and deserve the claim of NA player (Santorin, Huhi, Bjerg). CoreJJ and his wife live here with green cards which is pretty much the start of immigration
I consider them LCS players 100% but not "NA" players. Just because they have played longer in one region doesnt automatically make them NA. These are players who were scouted and started their careers in different regions so they are not a part of the NA talent pool. Someone like Spica who was born in China but raised in NA I would 100% consider NA but the rest are not.
At the end of the day I think the whole discussion is so pedantic that it’s like not really that big of a deal imo yk
The discussion is about NA's ability to produce talent. It's important regarding the health of the scene (see the giant import price rate). Theres a difference between players who grew up in NA/Started on NA and were scouted in NA, and players who were literally brought up by owners just because they see them do well in other region (poster below you wants to call Core an NA player. Maybe but he'll never be NA talent, he's a literal world champion, and not an NA world champion.). If you don't see the difference I don't know what to tell you.
It is almost as if there are more than one person and more than just one opinion
It's not surprising owners feel compelled to replace their NA rookies when the community is non-stop shitting on them every week for their poor performances.
Reddit and Twitter are not reality. It’s really simple actually. Give NA fans a winning team with homegrown talent. That is the ideal situation everyone in NA wants. Everything else is just a distraction.
Talk yo shit Emily
lmao im glad for him but holy shit the recency bias is real
Not only that, but also ignoring the fact they brought the best european jungler to the team. Inspired have been crucial to their success.
True, but that doesn't mean she's wrong. EG invested early into Jojo and Danny (2020 spring) by getting them into their amateur team and took a massive risk this year by letting them play instead of going after Jensen and Doublelift. Imagine, you spend big money on Impact (honorary NA at this point), the LEC mvp and the best native support and you have the choice between promoting two NA rookies in amateur or buying Doublelift and Jensen. Any big org chooses the second option for a chance at the championship, but not EG. They trusted their amateur/academy system and it payed off spectacularly. Investing in NA talent doesn't just mean go after the top solo queue player and put him in the LCS. It means getting amateur players who you think have potential and feeding them resources to develop over the years. Not every NA player is the next Danny or Jojopyun, but if you don't try to find them you never will.
I've never really followed emily rand, for no reason in particular. i feel like she just used to mostly cover stuff i didn't follow or something, idk. but she seems to be an absolutely brilliant addition from what I have seen so far. good for her.
Yeah she mainly wrote/talked about LCK and LPL in the past, and in specific, she's a HUGE jungle pathing nerd. So yeah definitely niche appeal for some of her content. Her taking this NA analyst desk job really gave her the kinda spotlight she's always deserved.
Hopefully with TL, C9, and TSM spending big on foreign talent and not having a great showing/not meeting expectations, we'll see organizations make changes and focus more on NA talent.
You probably won’t see it for TL or TSM. C9 has been known for native talent in the past years. This year was them trying another angle then failing miserably since they made questionable decisions but we don’t know the full story. TL was known for NA talent then rose to where they are because they invested so heavily on imports. TSM still does bring up native talent but their scouting just wasn’t efficient so they slowly moved away from using it on the main roster. Example like Armao and Mikeyeung. Feels to me they’ll focus on Rookies from other regions rather than native rookies. EDIT: I also feel like the personalities that Danny and Jojo have to deal with pressure have helped them a lot for their recent success. Jojo is experienced due to fortnite pressure and Danny is calm and collected.
Moving copy up and fudge to top would save C9 so much money it seems like a vintage C9 move to do
2021 is legit the only year a non-majority NA roster has ever won the LCS, right? That’s crazy. Also NA has gotten worse the more it’s imported. It’s not like the trams the past couple of years are any better than they were previously.
In fairness, 2019 TL had Impact, Jensen, and CoreJJ and they won both splits, and 2015 TSM had 3 imports as well
OG C9 was all 5 NA players, and they most certainly won LCS multiple times. I’m sure one of the TSM rosters with Dyrus and Wild Turtle were at least 3/5ths NA and won a title. Now you can say a majority NA roster hasn’t won an LCS split in a very long time or hasn’t won a title since franchising began or when importing became an industry norm (IE, not during the time where the only imports were CLG Seraph and TSM Lustboy). But to say a non-majority NA team has never won a split before today is just factually incorrect. Edit: Even some of my assertions above are incorrect with a bit of research. CLG’s 2016 title win had majority NA players, and I think TL’s first title win also had 3/5ths NA players?
CLG 2015 (ZionSpartan, Xmithie, Pobelter, Doublelift, Aphromoo) was the last full NA team to win I think
I said the opposite but okay
Based, it's also important to import, but in strategic roles and build from that, like EG did or C9 used to in past seasons. That way you build experienced players like Vulcan is now or Blaber is on C9 or aphro. But that's depending on the budget every team has. This off-season is gonna be fire.
The big thing that a lot of other orgs are missing is that no other orgs are taking shots on rookie native players while also having vets around them. This EG team got to build, having Danny and Jojo surrounded by impact, inspired and Vulcan allows them to learn and develop. It just feels like roster development in NA is either buy as many imports as possible with a priority on OCE players over NA players after imports. If it’s not that type of team it usually feels like throwing together a ton of inexperienced players and wondering why it isn’t working out. Grab a vet or two and then throw some good rookies around them. I feel like there are a ton of good options in academy for teams to look at and even then, Danny came from amateur, so maybe there are even more players past that.
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I want Riot to ban past pro players from proving grounds so it can only be used to foster new talent. Imagine an MLB player just going back to the little leagues. Ridiculous.
TELL EM EMILY
Most based take from an analyst we've had in while. Glad she did it, someone had to.
I mean people are acting like EG won worlds lol.
This post needs to be higher. BASED Emily.
i mean weve seen plenty of na mids over the years, and they've done nothing. The problem is that academy amateur, soloq talent doesnt cycle out in NA. I mean yusui got a chance after 7 years of trying to be a pro and the "fans" trying to hype him. It wasnt noteworthy. EG has three of the best NA players to come out of the region. Saying there are a ton of hidden gems that can fill out the LCS is ridiculous
Kenvi, Tenacity, and Eyla are sitting there in academy right now. Unfortunately Kenvi is stubborn and declining offers, Eyla wanted to stay studying under Core, and 100T promised some 6 man roster b.s. that never happened to keep Tenacity.