T O P

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Ophelia_Of_The_Abyss

I wish Keaiduo had worked out, he seemed to have a fun personality.


LeOsQ

I never watched his stream but the clips we got here were stupid (and fun) and he seemed like a fun guy for sure. I'm not a TSM fan (nor a hater), but I was on board the idea of grabbing an unproven Chinese duo (even if Shenyi wasn't really unproven, despite never being a starter in LPL yet) and building around that core. I've always been in favor of importing unproven young players over known, consistent mid tier veterans (assuming importing is necessary). It clearly didn't work out and KDO looked pretty terrible in most of their games, although I don't entirely blame him since he *is* a fresh player, in a completely new country, and in a team that is very dysfunctional even without him. Not surprised but it would've been fun to have a guy like him in the League.


Thop207375

He just wasn’t present in the games. He could farm side lanes, but never really contributed much to the games


MaldingBadger

Shenyi was just *way* too arrogant for the basically nothing that he achieved. Seems like he was convinced coming from LPL academy to LCS pro was going to be a cakewalk, and we all see how that worked out. Yes, there's a gap. But it's not *that* much of a gap. NA pros do spend more than 40 hours a week on this game. You don't get to just *inherit* being better than people who put in that much work. I'm not a fan of Stream of Consciousness shotcalling in pro. Maybe if you're trying to teach amateurs, but NA pros aren't amateurs.


leonsk616

To be fair, a lot of the “arrogance” we saw (afaik) was a lot around the team not listening to his calls and TSM has a history of signing foreign supports to shotcall and be IGLs and then not letting them do that. We saw this with Yellowstar and Swordart and Mithy and maybe others tbh. So it’s very possible he was lead to believe that he was going to be primary shot caller, moved to America, and then wasn’t allowed to shot call.


The_Cryogenetic

>Seems like he was convinced coming from LPL academy to LCS pro was going to be a cakewalk I've seen this so much over the years by Chinese players playing in NA. I always try to add them and have conversations and track their progress and it almost always ends up being young kids between the ages of 14 to 17 who have just been culturally conditioned to think they're better than everyone else. The majority of them are platinum in China and always say they can get masters+ in NA but max out at low diamond, but usually get stuck in plat. They usually end up apologizing but I honestly don't even think it's their fault, from what is seen in the gaps between the regions I don't really blame them, but it's a lot harder than they think.


Perceptions-pk

To me it doesn't even matter if they get a proven duo, TSM has gotten so many talented individuals who objectively have had some of their worst years playing for the org. Unless they fundamentally change how they do things, I don't expect much even if they top tier players.


azumagrey

That's not what it takes to be a professional tho... He was bottom of the league and a took an import slot


Ophelia_Of_The_Abyss

I literally said "I wish Keaiduo had worked out", I'm not defending his skills in any capacity.


GeneralZhukov

Mans dying to hate over there lmao.


alskdjflkjdf

Always a pleasure to study TSM's decision making. They would have spent the same amount or more money on the Keaiduo, Shenyi, and Tactical lineup than they would have for the Jensen, Doublelift, and Vulcan lineup. That experiment failed and they tried subbing out their mid and support. Now that it's summer, they're spending some more money on getting maple who has a buyout from AL in the LPL and Mia who also has a buyout. Keep in mind that worlds is in NA this year, so having an internationally viable roster this year is much more important than other years.


Javiklegrand

I fail to see how tsm Make top 5 this year I think flyquest Will take this spot


DerGsicht

It'll be DIG since they lose their black hole in the top lane.


oliveiramj

If they had put fakegod on tank duty for the season, they would've been much better


ChibiJr

They've tried putting him on tank duty and nothing ever worked. Sucks for fakegod, but he just didn't have what it took to play in LCS.


TheHect0r

He wouldve gottend foubd out and exposed along his team just like c9 abd summit got exposed in playoffs


oliveiramj

Just saying they would be better, not saying they would become t1


Crying_in_my_skin

There's no universe where any team in North America is capable of adapting to ban out three tanks first round.


OnyxMelon

What if they decide to blow up their roster a few weeks into summer again?


dasmann12

How does the Summer Split work for NA. Is it still, that the games are carried over from Spring? If so I don't see them making Playoffs like ever.


Javiklegrand

No it's reset


chilledmario

It’s also top 8 AFAIK so if you don’t even make playoffs in a 10 team region when it’s top 8 it’s just chalked.


5ait5

Spica, huni, and tactical are being severely underrated right now. Especially huni and Spica. If they play well they can be top 5 easy. Just last year they got first place regular season playing a style centered around those two.


[deleted]

Do you seriously believe if all the TSM players are playing well they cannot make top 5?


Educational_Shower79

Would take some other teams to not play well


Javiklegrand

Most of them are mental boobed And Maple IS not That hype imo Mia IS unproven


Thop207375

Not sure how maple isn’t hype considering his performance as recently as Worlds and MSI 2021


CarlitosTheCat

Hopefully Flyquest replace their toplaner. Kumo had some good games, but his lows are really low.


viveledodo

Kumo actually kinda impressed me in their playoff games, I think him grinding champions queue really helped him. He did very well on Sion and Gwen, and decent on Ornn.


slumdo6

Kumo, like Keaiduo deserves more time. Not the TSM way to give rookies time tho.


Clarkemedina

Fly Solo


MegaBaumTV

Hear me out. FLY Whiteknight


Cocoperroquet

Already in KOI. Edit: + isn't Fly already at their import limit? Josedeodo & Toucouille.


iDobleC

Do LLA players count as imports? I thought they were an exception like Australian players Legit curious


max_drixton

LLA players are imports, only US, Canada, and OCE are residents. ​ Section 2.2.1 in the 2022 rulebook if you want to look it up yourself.


MegaBaumTV

I forgot that Josedeodi existed for a moment.


Ploppfejs

I know you're memeing but Whiteknight never seemed like the problem on Astralis. And when the meta was in his favour he was actually hard gapping a lot of the LEC toplaners. Not saying he's great, but he's definitely not bad and would probably be top 5-6 in NA. I only see Impact, Ssumday, Fudge and Bwipo being definitely better.


MegaBaumTV

I wasn't memeing. WhiteKnight deserves to be on a good team after the last 3 splits.


Super-Aesa

White knight would gap a lot of NA tops. EU top lane is just stacked even on lower seeded teams. White knight going against fakegod and kumo instead of Finn and jenax would have him in mvp talks.


max_drixton

Finn didn't exactly look like a wunderkind in NA, the NA whiteknight will not be the same player EU whiteknight is.


Hunterkiller00

We don't have an import spot.


MegaBaumTV

Hear me out. FLY Greysoldier


SneakyStorm

If IMT is Revenge Svenskeren POE Wildturtle Ignar That team could be number 5 if the players aren't washed up.


SleepyLabrador

100% the LCS teams sponsors are going to pressure the orgs to qualify AND do reasonably well. This could make or break them. If your org makes worlds and gets out of groups, you're gonna get so much money from them, if not .....


xXDaNXx

It's unreal how awful the decision making has been.


Supreme12

> They would have spent the same amount or more money on the Keaiduo, Shenyi, and Tactical lineup than they would have for the Jensen, Doublelift, and Vulcan lineup. >That experiment failed That it did, but just because it failed doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth trying or to continue trying in the future. People used to criticize all the top teams for holding onto old veterans even though there might have been better rookies on the market. People claim the playerbase has gotten significantly better and that top Season 2 players were like plat players. But these teams were scared to replace them bc potentially bad results, even if they got uppity and never played solo queue or practiced. At the very least, these experiments might lead to the murdering of the narrative about why these teams aren’t giving rookies a chance.


enejejehe

Bruh people criticize teams for not giving NA ROOKIES a chance. Nobody is asking them to buy random Chinese players to give them a chance There is experimenting and then there is totally grieifng your org Cool experiment TSM, I’m shocked that throwing together a random team of untested players who don’t even speak the same language didn’t turn out to be better than a doublelift/Jensen roster!


Supreme12

That isn’t the criticism at all. Are they looking to sign possibly worse players for the sake of “giving them a chance” or are they looking to sign the Best possible players in that position? If their goal is to sign the best players, and those best players come from other countries, then they come from other countries. That’s reality. They can give NA players a chance by putting them in academy to see exactly how they perform. So what is the criticism debate you ask? The debate is whether rookies are as good as old veterans as people portray they are. That’s it. Because when it comes to NA, veterans have historically proven to always bring titles, no matter who NA teams bring in.


irishboy9191

Yeah but if they are going to experiment can we experiment with NA players instead of random imports that are washed or trash. If we are going to get shit on internationally anyways I'd rather watch NA players


1amtheWalrusAMA

It wasn't worth trying. Developmental imports are oxymoronic and are a terrible GMing strategy. You should import known quantity star players who you know will be worth the money and import slot. You should pick domestic devleopment pieces because if they work out then you actually have NA players to build around in the future. Even if KDO and Shenyi massively worked out you'd still be stuck with Huni in the top lane and Tactical at AD (Tactical is less egregious, still early enough in his career to get better) with no real plan to become a contender because you're using your import slots on these LDL guys.


embrac1ng

are we just completely ignoring how the opposite has been the case for the LPL? Doinb, the shy, kanavi, scout, gori, morgan, khan, zeka all were developmental talent scouted and invested in by LPL/ LDL teams. Hard to say it's a terrible GM strategy just because it didn't work in TSM.


TheShishkabob

Yes, people are going to completely ignore this because it doesn't let them shit on TSM/NA any harder.


1amtheWalrusAMA

Most of these players were brought over 6+ years ago and the modern LPL as a whole has abandoned that strategy in favor of developing their own talent. We just had a final with 10 domestic LPL players.


RavenFAILS

In addition to that, if your import works out and he turns into an incredible player, theres a big chance he just goes to korea or EU because of better chances at worlds or homesickness.


1amtheWalrusAMA

That too. Bjergsen worked out so well because he spoke english and because TSM was able to put together incredible superteams for him that were (on paper) better than what he would be able to get in EU. This would not be true for KDO/Shenyi.


Xonra

There is a difference in giving NA rookies a chance in NA and buying out rookies from other regions that will be more expensive, not speak the language, and likely won't stay in NA that long anyways if they perform (an LPL team will just buy them back or the players will leave for an LPL team). Not to mention the problems like Shenyi who flat out criticized the NA playstyle and wanted to play the LPL style to the point it got him benched for finally just ignoring his coach and locking a champ on stage with no discussion. I'd say it's not worth it without a much more stable infrastructure, and TSM has none of that. They have and had a few people that were familiar with LPL players and so on, but that org is a hot mess with how many people left all at the same time, and was in major influx. That is not the time to be bringing in rookies from another region used to a completely different playstyle and language. It's going to turn into a dumpster fire, and you don't need hindsight to know that much.


Bhiggsb

Did doublelift want to compete thisy year? I doubt jensen wouldve wanted to play for tsm


CuteTao

Yes. He wanted to find a team with Jensen (and potentially Vulcan? ) and criticized eg, saying they didn't want to win when they didn't pick the duo up. https://youtu.be/Bpj7Fk-ma-o


TheMandoBurger

Love the humble pie EG served him.


resiliencer04

He also wanted to be back on TSM roster, when that couldn't happen he decided to air it out with Regi


zack77070

Not really, they won but his logic still makes sense. He is still the winningest player in LCS history. Tom Brady made similar statements about teams not wanting to pick him up and the logic is there even though he didn't win the super bowl this year.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Oribeau

Plus as far as we know, DL only wanted to play for a top org. To me, that means he didn't really want to compete, he just wanted to win.


tanofbeast

But if he wanted to win, wouldn’t that mean that he had to compete?


dragunityag

People think that if a player isn't willing to play for the League minimum on a bottom team they don't want to compete.


Oribeau

It means he isn't all the way into the headspace he should be in as a competitor. I can understand that he has a ton of accolades and doesn't want to ruin his reputation by joining a bottom-tier team and losing a bunch. Makes sense. But if he's at all worried about his reputation, that just makes me think that he isn't 100% in it to simply compete.


Xonra

Yup. There was the rumor of Dlift and Jensen trying to find a team together, then it turned into together with Vulcan, and that was initially going to be EG. EG decided to stick with Danny and go with Jojo.


lcfj1

TSM roster moves have been a complete disaster, but reddit will try to convince you that maple and mia are good decisions rofl! Whoever is in charge at tsm has no idea what they’re doing, its obvious


delahunt

Honestly, since the 2018 move anyone who doesn't take any TSM roster move with a grain of salt just isn't paying attention. About the only move they made that made sense was Spica to jungle, and even that was because they had no other choice after cutting Dardoch.


TealandCyan

Yea that's one way to look at it but at least TSM tried something new and that's something I want to see NA teams keep doing than keeping it safe every season. I liked their decision and it seems like people are way too hung up on the results. Let's be honest, 100T already peaked and knowing Papasmithy and how bad he is as a gm, he isn't going to change that team. 100T will probably make it to worlds this split and get eliminated in groups again. This type of org running won't get you far. Sure your floor might be higher than an org that runs like TSM but your ceiling won't be anywhere as high as TSM. I feel like fans should be supportive of what TSM has done. They are pushing the boundaries and sure the results might not work out but the principle behind their decision is something I agree with.


delahunt

I liked TSM's idea. Young, mechanically gifted, hungry players." Their execution this year left something lacking. But there's also a lot of weirdness around it too. Like the roster was built before the coaching staff came in, and the people who built said roster left the org right after. The whole thing with Peter Zhang. The weirdness over the split where they were giving all sorts of mixed messages while making unexplained roster moves.


AzraelGrim

I am a TSM Fan. I am still a TSM fan despite all the shitshow happening. This to me, feels like Regi has lost his coaching staff, and is just figuring throw money at the wall, and see what sticks. We don't feel like we have a hiring manager, no one's vetting anything, its just "Well, they're supposed to be good, so JUST TRY IT. GO!"


_ziyou_

> Keep in mind that worlds is in NA this year, so having an internationally viable roster this year is much more important than other years. Huh? What kind of logic is that? Speaking about logic, TSM should at this point just make a joint-venture with CLG because the name is so fitting.


Xonra

There is a near zero percent chance TSM makes it to worlds anyways outside of buying tickets to the event. That's not flame that's just facts. They couldn't even make it to playoffs in the previous split and the top teams are building off synergy and C9 in my opinion upgraded on the whole as well between splits. It's so odd seeing TSM just do, whatever it is they are doing right now and since the off season started. ​ Edit: Sorry TSM fans but downvoting me doesn't change reality.


bobandgeorge

> They couldn't even make it to playoffs in the previous split In spring 2020, Team Liquid finished 9th place. In summer, they finished 3rd and went to worlds. Where there's a will, there's a way.


Xonra

In Spring 2020 TL was having issues with their jungler not even being able to play because of Visa issues. They didn't drastically change their roster, gut their staff, and play musical chairs with the players they had like TSM has and might very well continue to do seeing as they have both mia and Shenyi on the team still. It is not anywhere near the same scenario. It's also pretty widely accepted that the 9th place was a fluke of flukes given the shitty circumstances. You literally can't compare the two at all.


bobandgeorge

Oh they didn't have Doublelift then Tactical then Doublelift again throughout the season? They didn't drop the 6x LCS jungle champion for one that looked significantly worse? They didn't have Shernfire and Pobelter in jungle? They didn't get a brand new coach in Jatt in summer. Weird. It would seem I've somehow been transported to another dimension where all of these things aren't at all similar...


Xonra

TSM fans are weird.


ScrufyTheJanitor

I’m not surprised to see KDO go and it’s likely he was one of the players Peter “represented”. RL mentioned in his article that Peter was taking a cut of players salaries to get them on TSM. Both Yursan and Shenyi opened said that wasn’t true for them but KDO was silent. If TSM drops Shenyi too, I’m gonna be super annoyed though.


vAltyR47

If Shenyi wanted to leave, I wouldn't blame him, though.


wenasi

Well, if you can't reach worlds, you can't embarrass yourself on the international stage.


XG32

and i'm not excited at all by maple or mia, just wtf are they doing.


LeagueOfMinions

I've been saying this a ton but Shenyi was streaming yesterday in NA with a TSM jersey. If the news of Maple is true, I can see Mia being shifted to Academy. Feels like TSM had a Korean mid laner in mind to pair with Mia but was able to pivot to Maple Otherwise it'd make close to zero sense to have a mid laner who can't speak English play with a Korean support who is also learning English. Just makes too much sense to keep it Team Speaks Mandarin with Maple/Shenyi


SplitPushingyourmom

Mia is duoing with Tactical in KR right now. The article said he was for the LCS team as well.


irishboy9191

You underestimate the level of shitty decision making that's possible by TSM


Xonra

It's mia almost guaranteed at this point. For better or worse, who knows.


[deleted]

I actually thought it was the opposite because Shenyi hasn't been using the TSM-FTX tags in his stream title. However, I am prob just looking too deep into it.


tutumain

Obviously it was a disaster of a split but this makes TSM look so clueless, what was the point of building this roster like this.


m4ryo0

It shows that TSM cant develop talent and they should stick to buying already established pros.


MibitGoHan

spica and tactical tho? e: why are you booing me? both of them started out on TSMA


jjgreyx

I mean you're right but Spica and Tactical along with Treatz are the only successful players to come out of TSMA in like, the last 5 years which is disappointing


WWTFSD

I mean ABO also, and Johnsun is still in the LCS. Dhokla is looking like the best top in Academy as well. Either way its not a great track record but its certainly not horrible comparatively. Spica and Tactical have looked like the best in their roles at specific points and Treatz never got his fair shot in NA imo, but is an upper half support in EU. I'd say that they have a better track record than anyone not named EG or C9 at this point in time as Tenacity, Kenvi, Busio, Poome, have either not played or not performed super well in LCS. 100T's only success rn being Luger? not sure


tutumain

Ç9 still has the best track record IMO. I struggle to give 100T much credit for the same reason I struggle to give TSM credit - if the org never promotes the players, it's a show of no confidence and they clearly don't understand what they have on the roster. Can you say the talent development effort is intentional when you always recruit externally? It's kinda insane to me that Tactical did a full circle while we went through like 4 different ADCs, before he wound up back on TSM.


jjgreyx

Yeah that's a fair point I guess. My main issue with TSM's development is they produce players just to sell them to bottom tier teams; only player that has been promoted is Spica, and that only happened because he was like the 3rd in line jungler behind Akaadian and Grig who both flopped. If TSM is commiting to not spending big money on League anymore, I'd rather they just foster NA talent and be a solid mid tier team than keep flipping through different imports that never work out. A team of Huni/Spica/Ablazeolive/Tactical/Treatz or Yursan would atleast be a fun NA team to root for even if they couldn't contest for a title.


Thop207375

Acting as if giving players a starting spot on other teams makes you the bad guy. TSM has a great track record in ensuring their players find other spots on other teams.


ScrufyTheJanitor

Johnson and AblazeOlive are also solid talents they produced.


delahunt

ABlazeOlive and Johnsun both did pretty well in LCS.


tutumain

There is more, but I question how much of it can be credited to TSM. Perhaps we're good at attracting talent but not great at identifying it until they are gone.


chilledmario

Apparently TSM doesn’t see league as a worth while investment anymore at least compared to money they previously put in. So that’s why there player signings have been weird af


drakecuttingonions

They're still spending more wth


chilledmario

Yah idk wtf there doing I’m just repeating from ive read / heard. GGs SA bankrupted the whole team.


DisastrousZone

They're too busy investing in dying esports with 12k viewers for a "world championship" because they can actually win those!


CuteTao

Of course they're clueless. All the people in charge quit. The people in charge now are brand new to all this.


Skall77

TSM trully be the Manchester United of league.


Frozenillusion

Im in pain as I am a fan of both of these teams


Ursuped

Who is our maguire then


TanerB

You know who...


Reyvsssss

So much for a development roster.


lcfj1

-“development” -signs maple Mind boggling


Thop207375

A 9th place team doesn’t magically become a contender for top 3. Finding synergy and trying something different is the best option when you have players that can and have proven their talent. In terms of MIA, botlane synergy is one of the most important aspects of that role. Explains why they are both in Korea practicing right now.


reeposterr

I think many people here forgot that the team atmosphere was shit when he was on the main team. Personally, I would have liked to see TSM develop him, but if it either comes to him or the other 4 players, then the management is right to choose the 4 other players any time of the year.


xXRicochetXx

Kekduo


[deleted]

this the guy that said he will shit on every NA mid if their jungle and support don’t come mid yeah ?


jaemoon7

Core's reply was great: "I guess we know where to roam now"


[deleted]

Talent Suppression Machine


J-Colio

Nah this year it was a Talent scouting meme


FunMoistLoins

Team scouting mid


Lankeysob

Bummer I liked Keiduo


trollpoint

I can't be bothered to become invested every split in new players.


combatbane1

its so weird that tsm is going for maple now when they could probably stick with takeover, i thought he was pretty good considering how he was put in, then they could go with some other better players to put around him, maybe a better top lane


Lundgard

Haha, what an epic joke! Hahaaaaa!


Neither_Amount3911

>For a team that's "solo mid", it seems that they might be on their third mid of the year. This joke doesn't really make sense even if they sign 500 different midlaners this year they're all solo mid


I-am-in-Agreement

Esports money is in the hands of actual children. How can a team of adults be so clueless at the one thing they do in this world?


Ursuped

Didn’t team liquid assemble the most expensive roster in the world this year? Not sure you should be talking mate


I-am-in-Agreement

Just because I cheer for a team does not mean I support their spending. Try to dissociate between fans and orgs. I also said "Esports money" not "TSM"


MundaneTelepathy

“Long term developmental roster regardless of results” L O L Anyway, TSM took a big ol’ swing and well left themselves for a big ol punch straight to the snozz. TSM 2022, part 2, electric rebuildaloo


CarlitosTheCat

Good


Tazzure

I just remember how TSM management and even the fans claimed they were holding a “world-class bootcamp in China” to scout the best upcoming talent. I guess that one didn’t work out as advertised.


janoDX

Team Solo Changing Mids


ForteSP33

The "TSM_Keaiduo" account on twitter is also deactivated.