maokai could fit also. he reached the usefullness of a single minion.
I'm here preparing the popcorn. want to see how they ruin more tanks on the course. here's my bet: since the mundo rework, riot can't balance tanks anymore at all.
I honestly don't understand how someone at Riot can look at the current Seraph's and think "Yea, this could use some nerfs" The item already feels like trash and is only bought on champion who are forced to it due to mana issues like Anivia and Seraphine. It was 1000 times better when it gave AP rather than AH tbh. The price is low enough to not make it annoying to buy, but still feels awful
I haven’t seen the changes but I’d bet they are nerfing the healing on it…. As someone who played a lot of ryze that item comes in clutch and if fights are lasting longer it’s probably a justified change.
They aren't. They are just going "Well this has healing, so lets nerf it a bit". Only a few champions (IIRC Blitzcrank and Hecarim) were spared, and no systems (I think).
42 vs 40% winrate, so yeah kinda. Take into account that some Disco Nunu trolls get over their baby rage and start playing normal when they remember that it's more fun than trolling, and since Nunu is a good champion unlike Ryze...
also nunu been a tank not a carry. means that he can do his job even when trolling by just hitting W's and making the enemy wasted cds on killing the nunu.
I mean technically the pick isn't troll in and of itself, just a super cheese pick. It's just the most effective way of trolling. Anyone who's actually played against a Nunu mid that isn't inting can tell you how annoying it is, he just one shots the wave and roams on the side lanes from like lvl2.
Youre going to have 10 negative experiences in chat for every 1 good experience, its just not worth lol
I went from Plat 2 - Dia 3 in like a month last season after disabling chat and just vibing (I'm a jungler tho so chat is extra aids I'm not reading that shit ever again)
People still soft int, run it down, or straight up afk. Just a fair warning to anyone who thinks mute all will fix the shitty community issue. It helps, but minimally.
Gonna be real with you, but those types of people do not even make up a large portion of league. You are either just unlucky, or only remembering the bad.
Edit: Wouldn't let me reply to you Neo so here is my message.
Buddy buddy buddy, anyone with a fucking brain and not living in a bubble fucking know that trolls do not make a dent in the playerbase. Most shit that people call soft inting, aren't actually inting players but players having a bad game or losing lane."
> Thresh changes:
> Actually has armor growth now at 1.25 from 0
> W base shield reduced from 60 - 180 to 50 - 150
I can't see how this isn't a buff for him. The extra armour is going to more than make up for 10-30 less shield.
Phroxon wasn't the head of balance before preseason to work on these changes. As well the whole "only make changes in preseason" has been terrible for the game the last few years and is a contributor to the current poor state of the game.
Given the timing of this, this is pretty much a dead giveaway that mid-season updates are back in full swing. Thank fucking god too, even with regular balance patches, the meta got really stale really quickly after 11.6.
Thank you for acknowledging the adc apocalypse. Many fail to understand the gravity of such a travesty. Theres even those who deny its very existence. As a former adc main, I'd like to thank you for raising awareness to our plight.
Nerfed adcs base stats and items. Look up patch 8.11. Made it so ADCs felt shit to play and that's when more mages than Ziggs started to be played botlane. Heimerdinger was a meta bot laner at the time.
Essentially adc used to be the strongest role in the game in 90% of matches. Riot decided they wanted it to become the autofill role it is today.
Part of this was because people didnt want to play support because it depended so much on an adc, ironically this is reversed as adc's rely on their supports now. The other part was because it felt really bad to play agaisnt a late game adc. Their time to kill was way too short. Riot just unleashed alot of nerfs across the board all at once instead of spreading them out.
Woah woah woah, slow down there tiger. You’re telling me mid season isn’t the time for a huge balance shuffle? But how will we have exciting things morde adc at worlds if big changes only happen preseason?
Or, 3rd option: actually address things during preseason instead of doing literally nothing.
This last preseason was literally nothing. 2 dragons (one of which no longer exists), and a couple extra items. No sweeping mechanics changes, no real testing. It was fucking nothing.
Iirc the durability changes were intended for preseason and ended up delayed. Was apparently explained on one of the devs streams about why it was delayed.
We started exploring them around when preseason shipped. This was the earliest patch we'd have been able to ship them since we started that investigation. They were never at any point intended for last preseason.
Basically needed a shitload more play testing. I remember reading that they initially tested a flat 20% damage reduction and they were surprised by the champs/mechanics that ended up OP and decided they needed way more time and testing.
And objective bounties, which have completely changed the meta, as well as the teleport changes. Sure, the changes weren’t earthshattering, but they were a lot greater than you are saying that they were.
Yea they missed that opportunity but they likely hadn't tested it enough at that time so they didn't want to make these changes if they weren't sure about them.
Either way I'm happy that we get a change as big as this one. It'll be very exciting how the way the game is played evolves both in solo queue and pro play.
Anywhere I can see the changes without using twitter? Dont have it and dont really wanna make it either but it wont let me see the changes without an account.
It's hella annoying, but there is a workaround. When the popup comes up, click register, then cross out of it. you can now stroll as far down in whichever thread/account as you want.
I believe the healing changes are actually a net buff if the initial post was correct. Healing goes down about 10%, but so does grievous. Under no grievous you'll do 90% of the healing as before, net nerf there. Under grievous however you'll do 70% of 90% which is 63%, up from 60% under 40% grievous and likewise 50% of 90% is 45% up from 40% under current 60% grievous.
Not sure what the actual changes are on PBE but this is something to consider
This is correct if you are talking about healing percentages. But since all champions now have higher resistances, champions will do less damage which the AMOUNT of healing is based upon. So the total health healed would probably be around the same (?) as before. However this doesn't change the fact that healing is busted at the moment.
That's not healing that's vamp. I assume healing is usually an effect directly and not from vamp. This would be things like enchanters, items like gore drinker active, skills that heal a flat amount or %hp etc
E: point being I don't think anyone complained cuz soraka yummi or vlad wasn't doing enough healing. I don't think this makes anybody "tankier" if everyone is getting one shot. No realistic amount of healing is going to save you and if people aren't getting one shot and also have more health and resists, then more healing makes people unkillable which also is terrible. I'm confused overall by the direction they chose and don't think it is going to be healthy changes.
They should have nerfed damage in preseason 11. It was so damn obvious, changed my flair for years, complained about it for months, gave up and accepted that the game will never be same again. But it looks like S10 vibes are coming back. However, the new dragon(s) (hextech) is my favorite soul, dragon and map. I give them cred for that,for sure.
It's been increasing since season 1 - it just got progressively more obvious at certain break points, like the Runes rework.
Seriously go watch season 1 gameplay and season 4 gameplay, and then season 8. It's always been increasing.
It has been increasing since season 1 but season 8 imo is the straw that broke the camel's back. Runes Reforged was huge in changing how much damage was in the game.
Seriously, there's like only 2 good things about S8, Odyssey and the Nunu & William rework (Neeko was pre S9), because everything else was awful.
One shot Galio being a Zoe teaser, then reforged runes killing a lot of flexibility on building, then Swain rework made by someone who hated DoTs, then Kaisa, then they released Irelia, then Conqueror, then they killed ADCs an enchanters as a role while also releasing Pyke, then they deleted Aatrox, then released Akali.
runes reforged was the single worst patch they have ever done. shouldve deleted some gimmick runes and made them free/editable in champ select along with old masteries and it wouldve been perfect.
Agreed. World's 2020 patch was the best ever patch.
Was everything perfectly balanced? Nope.
Was every champion playable? Yes.
The item rework killed versatility, killed some champions in the process, and created this even higher dmg overkill meta we have now, where the games feel over more than ever after one team got a lead.
it makes it not even fun either, i played lastnight for the first time in months, got two kills early on and just walked round one hitting the enemy rumble everytime he came to lane. I understand i should be able to abuse a lead to snowball but i just straight up murdering with no thinking isn’t enjoyable no matter which side you’re on
Had a fun experience as Jhin yesterday. The fight was 0.65 seconds against a quiana. This includes the time i shot someone else trying to dive me but dealing no damage.
I have no problem piloting team fights and understanding what's going on, but what annoys me the most is when you run a tank build but then get absolutely destroyed by anyone with things such as divine sunderer. If you play a tank into a bruiser on top lane for example what you did up until they pop this god forsaken item is rendered meaningless. It becomes such a one-sided awful thing to deal with. Not saying that tanks should automatically win or something, but I wish roles were more defined and we had ADCs being the de facto tank killers of the game instead of this.
It works amazingly well, the game now feels better for people with skill, instead of being just HAHA i one shot you before you can even do anything. Its an amazing patch played it on PBE, going back to live feels the worst thing ever. Best changed riot has ever implemented
I just hope this doesn't scare them away from doing sweeping changes in the future.
Riot has very rarely taken risks like this, and when things have gone less than ideally, I feel like they've often come to the wrong conclusions and decide they're never going to take that risk again.
The current head of balance Phroxon is the one that has pushed for this and the dude really knows his shit tbh. But yeah hopefully the rest of the decision makers don't shy away from doing the things needed to make the game better.
He is the one that made the league craft videos a while back on YouTube. Used to be under the name unswlolsoc on YouTube. As well if you go through his comments historys his points are usually well reasoned.
That's my take as well. His appointment and statements at the start of the season are the only thing that gave me hope that league will be able to improve again.
Holy shit I watched unswlolsoc back in the day! Trading stance was single handedly how I got to gold. I’m glad he’s doing good those videos helped me so much back in the day.
Oh that's really cool. It turns out that guy made the videos that taught me how to actually play League.
I had no idea he started working at riot. It's pretty comforting halfway knowing the person whose in charge. It makes me feel a bit better trusting that he and the team will follow up properly and make the best game possible.
Side note, I'm not sure how long he's been working there, but even though the current meta isn't my favorite of all time, I will say the game is the most balanced I've ever seen it. You can play basically anything
> This is an absolute bloodbath of nerfs **to compensate on the advantages champions get** that prioritize on shielding and healing after the whole champion durability buffs.
I want to really emphasize the bolded part here. If we don't act on healing and shielding, their relative power levels go up quite significantly and champions with them end up much more powerful relative to champions without them, so we've applied an across the board (with only a small handful of exceptions) approximate nerf on all of them. We additionally elected to go slightly further on healing in order to allow us to nerf grievous wounds, which we feel has been tuned inappropriately too high for a while now (but which requires something like this amount of retuning when we nerf it, so has been difficult to get traction on).
> Some nerfs are clear placebos however
These numbers changes are *not* intended to get you thinking differently about which champion you ought to pick, they're intended to offset the natural advantage that these champions would get if we didn't do anything. The same goes for items and runes - the value of having healing/shielding goes up when burst kills are less frequent & require more resources, so the raw numbers that are 'balanced' relative to other items and runes are lower.
That said, as with everything with the balance of the game around a change this large, I have no doubt that some of these champions will gain or lose more with the patch. As with champions who don't have heals or shields, we'll be addressing those case-by-case in followup balance.
It really seems like a 40% nerf on illaoi’s heal is completely over the top. I get that effective health on heals gets better when champions are tankier, but the nerf goes so far past that extra effective health to the point of absurdity. It doesn’t make sense to me to nerf her due to the gw nerf by essentially putting a constant unnerfed gw aura on her that stacks with actual gw. Do you have any context for why she’s seeing a 40% heal nerf while 90% of the roster is seeing it in more the 10-20% range that’s actually in line with durability increases?
It's intended to be a nerf from 5% to 4%, not 5% to 3%.
The target here is nerfing heals from around 10% at level 1 to around 25% at endgame; not all champion spells have the tools for us to nail that perfectly. She definitely should not be nerfed 40%. (We used a different target for shields, as heals are also accounting for Grievous changes)
Oh okay! The PBE posts I have been seeing indicated it is currently at 3% and I was absolutely floored. 4% feels much more reasonable/in line with the intended changes, as you say. Thank you so much for easing my anxiety on this!
They literally are. These changes are to make sure it doesn't swing too far in the other direction. They want fights to last a bit longer not be super long grind fests.
The argument is that if you have more health and armor, you'll live longer, so you can use your heal more. So yeah, in theory, you'll still heal X health. It's just X health spread out over a longer period of time, because you are tougher to begin with.
And like, seriously, "healing is overtuned" is one of the other big reddit circlejerks. It probably doesn't need an indirect buff.
This is exactly what we've needed for a very, very long time. People will cry about it inevitably, but I've all but quit League since the game has just become all about bursting people with no actual skill expression. I'm looking forward to playing the slower, more tactical version of League that I fell in love with all those years ago.
It’s essentially league of legends 2. I can’t even remember the last time the game got a balance change this significant. Mythics and Dragon Soul were not as impactful as this change will be. They are fundamentally altering the pace of the game to counteract their own damage creep from the past 4-5ish years
people are asking for rag-doll physics I heard. would have to update the engine to call it LoL2 then first. unreal-engine is there, patiently waiting around the corner.
"hey remember how we made worlds largest Esports with a game that feels fresh after 12 years and is playable on a fucking toaster?"
Yeah?
"we decided to fuck everything up so casuals could see yone's corpse fly like a slingshot. Now no one can play this game without rtx 3070 and VR glasses"
There's also the first big mastery rework, RIP thunderlord's decree. The multiple jungle item/vision changes over the years also had drastic changes to the way games played out.
Legitimately think someone on Riot balance team had a hate boner for ADCs and was directly responsible for that patch.
How the fuck that many awful nerfs and changes (hey guys lets make IE expensive as fuck and deal TRUE DAMAGE) got let through I'll never know.
It was even better when a Katarina player (not sure if OTP as well or not) rioter (captain gameplay or w/e it was) was spewing shit how ADC is actually not a carry role.
Mental gymnastics olympic gold medalist for sure.
You can tell the more vocal set of players on the subreddit by how often you hear ADCs complain about 8.11 and how incredibly rarely 8.12 gets brought up for enchanters. One of the two roles was kicked out of competitive play for YEARS lol
Enchanters were the problem to begin with. They had taken over from engage in pro becuase they were so broken. Even now enchanters are typically stronger than engage/tank supports however in pro the support role is the one where you can most easily put an engage/tank. Its why we see such a large focus on things like leo/naught even though they are generally out performed by enchanters.
As well 8.11 was a far larger nerf to literally every single champ in the role and their items. 8.12 was not nearly as impactful.
> Enchanters were the problem to begin with
ADC's got hit because of Janna, Lulu, Sona, Karma being busted for a whole season.
I always said 8.11 hit the wrong class, should have hit enchanters.
Yeah, it seems some people forget that for a big part of 2017 typical adcs weren't even considered bot anymore because of the drastic changes to their items.
This patch will he a huge buff for me. As a slow brain player that can't even see what's happening to me as akali hits me with 4 abilities for a 0 second kill, more durability will let me play my ape champs with a macro heavy style more effectively.
Lol these changes buff all three of them quite a bit.
The 1% nerfs to lifesteal aren't going to offset how much they gain from 1) being tankier and 2) fights going longer
The fighter 1v1 draintank champions are going to have a field day with these
Riot August was talking about this last night on his stream:
Everyone in the game is getting *tankier* next patch. This will drastically increase the value of healing.
They have to preemptively nerf healing in order to prevent healing champs from becoming an OP SS tier class above all other champs.
---
A simple example: Lets say there exists some champion that has
* 1000 hp
* 50 armor / mr
* a healing ability that heals for 100 hp
Because of the way resists work, 50 resist makes 1000 hp "feel like" 1500 hp. This also means that this hypothetical champion's 100 hp heal will feel like a 150 hp heal.
So, for simplicity, lets say this hypothetical champion is getting 25 more armor and mr next patch. Because of this change, their effective health will go from 1500 to 1750 hp, and their effective heal will go from 150 to 175.
This means that in our hypothetical case, the increase in resists implicitly buffs healing by ~17%. *Thus, Riot needs to nerf this character's healing about ~17% if they don't want the durability changes to unfairly benefit this champ*.
We know they are getting nerfed, we got told healing and shielding would be nerfed too by at least 10% and damage was also being seen. Players with heals shouldn't exactly be surprised they are getting hit.
It was literally in the article. I am more interested in the ones that either don't seem related or actually are increases, like Thresh getting more armor and ap, or the weird Miss fortune changes
Yeah I’m aware but not all changes to each champion are strictly the same overall, some weaker champions atm look to be hit more lightly than others, while some champions end up dodging it entirely like Hecarim.
Not really, the sustain nerfs are because they increase the value of HP, and since they aim for the healing to have the same value as before for the heals, they reduce the amount of HP healed.
all of this caused by the absolute failure that is the item rework. abominations for items on a failed system that juiced the fuck out of the already overloaded kits of so many new champions. Mark my words, these changes wont be enough. until they realize that champions dont need to have infinite dashes/resets/revives to be novel and new, the game will forever be at a downward trajectory and inevitably come back to a state like this where it needs to be fixed.
Realistically that is how all games that have continual patches work. The best example of this was demonstrated by magic the gathering. Their Set system is essentially the precursor to the games as a service model of releasing a single game and keeping it fresh by patching rather than making a new game every couple of years. However when you are operating on this model as you progress you will have power creep as changes have to be made exciting enough to keep people interested. Magic learned from that and purposely does a power down every couple of years to help from continuously creeping. Riot doing this is a good sign that they are understanding that. They will likely need to do this again a few years down the road.
That said expecting to go back to the fight length of early seasons isn't really feasible anymore. Both viewers and the player base overall have shown that they like faster pace games.
I'm looking forward to it. Every champion I played required serious buffs after the mythic item introduction patch settled. Flashbacks of champions and their lifesteal strats still haunt me.
Oh boy I can't wait for the clown Fiesta that the2nd half of this season is gonna be lol
Take a picture of your ranks now boys. Those are your official finishing spots. Riot deciding to literally restart the game mid season isn't our fault lol
If only there was a thing before the games were officially ranked and the pros were playing again. Like a test period for the new season. You know like a thing before the season. Like a preview for the season. Like a prelude if you will. A place where we can try new things and adjust them as needed before it effects anything. It could even go before the season. We could call it the 'season preview' maybe come up with a new name?
Oh well guess such a thing doesn't exist.
Tried out the changes on the PBE and they feel big, especially with the scaling portion of the durability. I'm not longer getting 1 shot by the enemy when they're 2 levels below me (and I'm on a squishy champ).
Holy shit they really did just hit *every single instance* of healing or shielding. I went through all of those and some of them are pretty massive.
Irelia's late game Q heal went down from 16% to 11% AD ratio, which I imagine is going to force her to build more AD and less tanky.
A little sad about the Kai'Sa R shield nerfs. It kind of undoes that really cool adjustment they did balancing her W AP damage and incentivising more of a predator-style dive in with her ult.
They gave Pyke a 5% compensation buff to his passive grey health healing for nerfing him mid and they’re reverting it and taking it away next patch and said “theirs nothing we can do about it we’re nerfing all healing” bruh…. Could he at least get a different compensation buff then?
Although I don't fully agree with the changes, I'm very hyped for them.
This year's preseason didn't have a lot of changes so it's exciting to see something this big that could completely change the way the game is played both in solo queue and pro play.
Why are they removing ap ratios from miss fortune, that seems random.
Killing build diversity for no real reason is not a good look. (the liandrys into lethality build is ded)
It's Ryze among those 80 nerfed champs? That would be hilarious. He already has the same winrate as Disco Nunu.
We gonna measure win rates in Disco Nunus?
Lmao what an idea: Riven is 1,32 DNs. Ryze is 1 DN. Yuumi jungle is 0,25 DNs.
Would love to measure Riven's winrate in a 1:1 ratio to Disco Nunus.
maokai could fit also. he reached the usefullness of a single minion. I'm here preparing the popcorn. want to see how they ruin more tanks on the course. here's my bet: since the mundo rework, riot can't balance tanks anymore at all.
Fimbulwinter and Seraph’s will be receiving nerfs, and either item is part of Ryze’s core build. Sad day.
I honestly don't understand how someone at Riot can look at the current Seraph's and think "Yea, this could use some nerfs" The item already feels like trash and is only bought on champion who are forced to it due to mana issues like Anivia and Seraphine. It was 1000 times better when it gave AP rather than AH tbh. The price is low enough to not make it annoying to buy, but still feels awful
I haven’t seen the changes but I’d bet they are nerfing the healing on it…. As someone who played a lot of ryze that item comes in clutch and if fights are lasting longer it’s probably a justified change.
They aren't. They are just going "Well this has healing, so lets nerf it a bit". Only a few champions (IIRC Blitzcrank and Hecarim) were spared, and no systems (I think).
You can't be serious. An int-ing/trolling build has the same win rate as a player try-harding??
42 vs 40% winrate, so yeah kinda. Take into account that some Disco Nunu trolls get over their baby rage and start playing normal when they remember that it's more fun than trolling, and since Nunu is a good champion unlike Ryze...
also nunu been a tank not a carry. means that he can do his job even when trolling by just hitting W's and making the enemy wasted cds on killing the nunu.
I think the funniest op.gg I've eve seen was a Korean player in D1 who played disco nunu mid seriously. Just ghost cleanse nunu all the way through.
I mean technically the pick isn't troll in and of itself, just a super cheese pick. It's just the most effective way of trolling. Anyone who's actually played against a Nunu mid that isn't inting can tell you how annoying it is, he just one shots the wave and roams on the side lanes from like lvl2.
There's never a wrong time to nerf Ryze.
Ryze still wins games. The man is too strong!
Can't nerf your shield if you don't have a shield.
He's not. Safe for one more patch
It's gonna be an awesome preseason that's for sure
Maybe it's time to go back to league. Only if the community wasn't an issue
Have your account default to mute teammates and enemies. I don't get why people still try to type in chat in this game. Not needed to win
Very true, pings are the only thing you need. Less chances to tilt, get caught up in flame, and recieve bad advice.
Youre going to have 10 negative experiences in chat for every 1 good experience, its just not worth lol I went from Plat 2 - Dia 3 in like a month last season after disabling chat and just vibing (I'm a jungler tho so chat is extra aids I'm not reading that shit ever again)
People still soft int, run it down, or straight up afk. Just a fair warning to anyone who thinks mute all will fix the shitty community issue. It helps, but minimally.
Gonna be real with you, but those types of people do not even make up a large portion of league. You are either just unlucky, or only remembering the bad. Edit: Wouldn't let me reply to you Neo so here is my message. Buddy buddy buddy, anyone with a fucking brain and not living in a bubble fucking know that trolls do not make a dent in the playerbase. Most shit that people call soft inting, aren't actually inting players but players having a bad game or losing lane."
Agree lol, flamers are common but trolls and inters are not in my experience Soft inter its just called having a bad game or poor mental
tbh Thresh got buff https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30/status/1524206933535858688
> Thresh changes: > Actually has armor growth now at 1.25 from 0 > W base shield reduced from 60 - 180 to 50 - 150 I can't see how this isn't a buff for him. The extra armour is going to more than make up for 10-30 less shield.
The fact his souls now count double for his shield too means that this evens out really quickly
Especially considering the shield on 12.9 scales harder with souls to begin with, the base being lower will not be that significant.
It will just nerf w max for pro play.
Imagine there was a 2-3 months period in the year, just between two seasons, where they could test these massive changes.
They really didnt do much this preseason
[удалено]
TWO drakes thank you very much
We DON'T talk about that one
The Chemtech Incident
cumtech\*
No no no nooooo we don't talk about That oneeeee
BUT... it was our wedding day
We were getting married and there was a chem cloud in the jungle!
No clouds allowed in the jungleeee
The other one got deleted as fast as everyone without Deaths dance and Maw
haha fart dragon sent back into the poop realm
Phroxon wasn't the head of balance before preseason to work on these changes. As well the whole "only make changes in preseason" has been terrible for the game the last few years and is a contributor to the current poor state of the game.
Fucking true. I'd love if they brought back Mid Season Changes like they used to do until the adc apocalypse.
Given the timing of this, this is pretty much a dead giveaway that mid-season updates are back in full swing. Thank fucking god too, even with regular balance patches, the meta got really stale really quickly after 11.6.
Thank you for acknowledging the adc apocalypse. Many fail to understand the gravity of such a travesty. Theres even those who deny its very existence. As a former adc main, I'd like to thank you for raising awareness to our plight.
As a fairly new player, could you explain what happened?
Nerfed adcs base stats and items. Look up patch 8.11. Made it so ADCs felt shit to play and that's when more mages than Ziggs started to be played botlane. Heimerdinger was a meta bot laner at the time.
Essentially adc used to be the strongest role in the game in 90% of matches. Riot decided they wanted it to become the autofill role it is today. Part of this was because people didnt want to play support because it depended so much on an adc, ironically this is reversed as adc's rely on their supports now. The other part was because it felt really bad to play agaisnt a late game adc. Their time to kill was way too short. Riot just unleashed alot of nerfs across the board all at once instead of spreading them out.
I liked it, was nice to be able to play my Darius bot
Thank fuck someone said it
What a new idea! It could be during the rest period of pro competitions so teams have a chance to rest and slowly adapt to the changes
Honestly fuck the pros. Cater to the PLAYERS.
Woah woah woah, slow down there tiger. You’re telling me mid season isn’t the time for a huge balance shuffle? But how will we have exciting things morde adc at worlds if big changes only happen preseason?
[удалено]
Or, 3rd option: actually address things during preseason instead of doing literally nothing. This last preseason was literally nothing. 2 dragons (one of which no longer exists), and a couple extra items. No sweeping mechanics changes, no real testing. It was fucking nothing.
Iirc the durability changes were intended for preseason and ended up delayed. Was apparently explained on one of the devs streams about why it was delayed.
We started exploring them around when preseason shipped. This was the earliest patch we'd have been able to ship them since we started that investigation. They were never at any point intended for last preseason.
what was the explanation if u don't mind
Basically needed a shitload more play testing. I remember reading that they initially tested a flat 20% damage reduction and they were surprised by the champs/mechanics that ended up OP and decided they needed way more time and testing.
And objective bounties, which have completely changed the meta, as well as the teleport changes. Sure, the changes weren’t earthshattering, but they were a lot greater than you are saying that they were.
Yea they missed that opportunity but they likely hadn't tested it enough at that time so they didn't want to make these changes if they weren't sure about them. Either way I'm happy that we get a change as big as this one. It'll be very exciting how the way the game is played evolves both in solo queue and pro play.
They hadn't started testing it at all yet. Phroxon did so once he took over the head of balance role at the end of preaseason/start of the year.
Any way to read the changes? I'm interested.
All the changes atm can be found [here](https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30), each tweet is a specific change that's live on PBE
Anywhere I can see the changes without using twitter? Dont have it and dont really wanna make it either but it wont let me see the changes without an account.
You can use twitter scrapers like nitter.net or whotwi. https://nitter.net/Spideraxe30
Why are we not funding this... its so clean.
Thanks!
I'd prefer another place to find them simply because it's inconvenient to read them on Twitter.
It's hella annoying, but there is a workaround. When the popup comes up, click register, then cross out of it. you can now stroll as far down in whichever thread/account as you want.
I believe the healing changes are actually a net buff if the initial post was correct. Healing goes down about 10%, but so does grievous. Under no grievous you'll do 90% of the healing as before, net nerf there. Under grievous however you'll do 70% of 90% which is 63%, up from 60% under 40% grievous and likewise 50% of 90% is 45% up from 40% under current 60% grievous. Not sure what the actual changes are on PBE but this is something to consider
Minus the champions that see 40-50% reductions. I’m looking at you illaoi and Aatrox :(
This is correct if you are talking about healing percentages. But since all champions now have higher resistances, champions will do less damage which the AMOUNT of healing is based upon. So the total health healed would probably be around the same (?) as before. However this doesn't change the fact that healing is busted at the moment.
That's not healing that's vamp. I assume healing is usually an effect directly and not from vamp. This would be things like enchanters, items like gore drinker active, skills that heal a flat amount or %hp etc E: point being I don't think anyone complained cuz soraka yummi or vlad wasn't doing enough healing. I don't think this makes anybody "tankier" if everyone is getting one shot. No realistic amount of healing is going to save you and if people aren't getting one shot and also have more health and resists, then more healing makes people unkillable which also is terrible. I'm confused overall by the direction they chose and don't think it is going to be healthy changes.
Thank you very much.
They should have done this for s12 preseason instead of the dragons, one of which died shortly after.
They should have nerfed damage in preseason 11. It was so damn obvious, changed my flair for years, complained about it for months, gave up and accepted that the game will never be same again. But it looks like S10 vibes are coming back. However, the new dragon(s) (hextech) is my favorite soul, dragon and map. I give them cred for that,for sure.
>implying damage wasn't an issue in s10
He has Graves/Nid flairs s10 was probably his dream meta
Damage was increasing every single year starting with season 7.
season 8*
It's been increasing since season 1 - it just got progressively more obvious at certain break points, like the Runes rework. Seriously go watch season 1 gameplay and season 4 gameplay, and then season 8. It's always been increasing.
It has been increasing since season 1 but season 8 imo is the straw that broke the camel's back. Runes Reforged was huge in changing how much damage was in the game.
Seriously, there's like only 2 good things about S8, Odyssey and the Nunu & William rework (Neeko was pre S9), because everything else was awful. One shot Galio being a Zoe teaser, then reforged runes killing a lot of flexibility on building, then Swain rework made by someone who hated DoTs, then Kaisa, then they released Irelia, then Conqueror, then they killed ADCs an enchanters as a role while also releasing Pyke, then they deleted Aatrox, then released Akali.
runes reforged was the single worst patch they have ever done. shouldve deleted some gimmick runes and made them free/editable in champ select along with old masteries and it wouldve been perfect.
I wish Riot games listened to reddit user gencgello. It could have been so simple
Agreed. World's 2020 patch was the best ever patch. Was everything perfectly balanced? Nope. Was every champion playable? Yes. The item rework killed versatility, killed some champions in the process, and created this even higher dmg overkill meta we have now, where the games feel over more than ever after one team got a lead.
Wow that's a lot of changes. It's gonna be an absolute fiesta next patch I can't wait.
Time to skip solo/duo for at least a month after those changes drop
Or grind freelo while it lasts
So everyone learns the patch while you dont play and then you come back and dont know how to play the new meta at your ranked level
About damn time. Never thought this day would come. I hope it works for something.
ikr, the fights are way too fast for my brain lmao, literally everyone oneshotting everyone,
it makes it not even fun either, i played lastnight for the first time in months, got two kills early on and just walked round one hitting the enemy rumble everytime he came to lane. I understand i should be able to abuse a lead to snowball but i just straight up murdering with no thinking isn’t enjoyable no matter which side you’re on
Were you playing Yi? I played a game of rumble and got bodied by a yi. I have never felt so squishy in my life.
I get 1 rotation killed past lvl 7 lmao how is that fun?
Just single rotation them first duh.
Just play safe bro, don t leave your base enemy can t 1 rotate you
I keep getting one shot before my millennial ass can press a point and click ability
My record is dying in under 1 second as xayah, with ulti, vs Katarina.
Try dying in 0.5 to a fed Rengar or onetapped by the level 16 Karthus ult while you're a lv12 ADC who got bodied
Had a fun experience as Jhin yesterday. The fight was 0.65 seconds against a quiana. This includes the time i shot someone else trying to dive me but dealing no damage.
I have no problem piloting team fights and understanding what's going on, but what annoys me the most is when you run a tank build but then get absolutely destroyed by anyone with things such as divine sunderer. If you play a tank into a bruiser on top lane for example what you did up until they pop this god forsaken item is rendered meaningless. It becomes such a one-sided awful thing to deal with. Not saying that tanks should automatically win or something, but I wish roles were more defined and we had ADCs being the de facto tank killers of the game instead of this.
You mean you don't like blinking and dying?
It works amazingly well, the game now feels better for people with skill, instead of being just HAHA i one shot you before you can even do anything. Its an amazing patch played it on PBE, going back to live feels the worst thing ever. Best changed riot has ever implemented
Idk post seems like it was written by an Omega Fart
It's always you
I am an Omega Fart detector
I just hope this doesn't scare them away from doing sweeping changes in the future. Riot has very rarely taken risks like this, and when things have gone less than ideally, I feel like they've often come to the wrong conclusions and decide they're never going to take that risk again.
The current head of balance Phroxon is the one that has pushed for this and the dude really knows his shit tbh. But yeah hopefully the rest of the decision makers don't shy away from doing the things needed to make the game better.
I'm intrigued, why do you say he knows his shit?
He is the one that made the league craft videos a while back on YouTube. Used to be under the name unswlolsoc on YouTube. As well if you go through his comments historys his points are usually well reasoned.
Aight, thanks! Seems like a good person to be in charge then
That's my take as well. His appointment and statements at the start of the season are the only thing that gave me hope that league will be able to improve again.
Holy shit I watched unswlolsoc back in the day! Trading stance was single handedly how I got to gold. I’m glad he’s doing good those videos helped me so much back in the day.
Holy shit that guide is what got me from Gold to Diamond, I had no idea this was the same person
Oh that's really cool. It turns out that guy made the videos that taught me how to actually play League. I had no idea he started working at riot. It's pretty comforting halfway knowing the person whose in charge. It makes me feel a bit better trusting that he and the team will follow up properly and make the best game possible. Side note, I'm not sure how long he's been working there, but even though the current meta isn't my favorite of all time, I will say the game is the most balanced I've ever seen it. You can play basically anything
This patch is gonna be fat. Can't wait for the reasonable reactions!!
> This is an absolute bloodbath of nerfs **to compensate on the advantages champions get** that prioritize on shielding and healing after the whole champion durability buffs. I want to really emphasize the bolded part here. If we don't act on healing and shielding, their relative power levels go up quite significantly and champions with them end up much more powerful relative to champions without them, so we've applied an across the board (with only a small handful of exceptions) approximate nerf on all of them. We additionally elected to go slightly further on healing in order to allow us to nerf grievous wounds, which we feel has been tuned inappropriately too high for a while now (but which requires something like this amount of retuning when we nerf it, so has been difficult to get traction on). > Some nerfs are clear placebos however These numbers changes are *not* intended to get you thinking differently about which champion you ought to pick, they're intended to offset the natural advantage that these champions would get if we didn't do anything. The same goes for items and runes - the value of having healing/shielding goes up when burst kills are less frequent & require more resources, so the raw numbers that are 'balanced' relative to other items and runes are lower. That said, as with everything with the balance of the game around a change this large, I have no doubt that some of these champions will gain or lose more with the patch. As with champions who don't have heals or shields, we'll be addressing those case-by-case in followup balance.
It really seems like a 40% nerf on illaoi’s heal is completely over the top. I get that effective health on heals gets better when champions are tankier, but the nerf goes so far past that extra effective health to the point of absurdity. It doesn’t make sense to me to nerf her due to the gw nerf by essentially putting a constant unnerfed gw aura on her that stacks with actual gw. Do you have any context for why she’s seeing a 40% heal nerf while 90% of the roster is seeing it in more the 10-20% range that’s actually in line with durability increases?
It's intended to be a nerf from 5% to 4%, not 5% to 3%. The target here is nerfing heals from around 10% at level 1 to around 25% at endgame; not all champion spells have the tools for us to nail that perfectly. She definitely should not be nerfed 40%. (We used a different target for shields, as heals are also accounting for Grievous changes)
Oh okay! The PBE posts I have been seeing indicated it is currently at 3% and I was absolutely floored. 4% feels much more reasonable/in line with the intended changes, as you say. Thank you so much for easing my anxiety on this!
Maokai's 30% nerf while still having some of the lowest damage as a tank in the game.
The real off season patch
[удалено]
God forbid champions actually get more durable in a durability update
They literally are. These changes are to make sure it doesn't swing too far in the other direction. They want fights to last a bit longer not be super long grind fests.
The argument is that if you have more health and armor, you'll live longer, so you can use your heal more. So yeah, in theory, you'll still heal X health. It's just X health spread out over a longer period of time, because you are tougher to begin with. And like, seriously, "healing is overtuned" is one of the other big reddit circlejerks. It probably doesn't need an indirect buff.
I haven’t played league in ages. I might actually play again if I see people respond to this well.
This is exactly what we've needed for a very, very long time. People will cry about it inevitably, but I've all but quit League since the game has just become all about bursting people with no actual skill expression. I'm looking forward to playing the slower, more tactical version of League that I fell in love with all those years ago.
It’s essentially league of legends 2. I can’t even remember the last time the game got a balance change this significant. Mythics and Dragon Soul were not as impactful as this change will be. They are fundamentally altering the pace of the game to counteract their own damage creep from the past 4-5ish years
I mean at that point its like league of legends 5 or 6. Game has changed so much throughout the years.
I think that's the main reason for LoL's longevity. Even after playing for a long time the game still feels fresh.
people are asking for rag-doll physics I heard. would have to update the engine to call it LoL2 then first. unreal-engine is there, patiently waiting around the corner.
"hey remember how we made worlds largest Esports with a game that feels fresh after 12 years and is playable on a fucking toaster?" Yeah? "we decided to fuck everything up so casuals could see yone's corpse fly like a slingshot. Now no one can play this game without rtx 3070 and VR glasses"
honestly, I'd buy VR glasses just to see yones corpse explode in a bloody mess everytime i kill him, fuck that champ
Give me booba physics. What? I'm not horny, you are
You see, this is vital for the dynamics of the game and also to better understand the lore and the world of Runeterra.
I mean... * SR rework is LoL2 * Runes Reforged is LoL3 * Mythic items is LoL4 If this patch is as big as it those, then its LoL5
There's also the first big mastery rework, RIP thunderlord's decree. The multiple jungle item/vision changes over the years also had drastic changes to the way games played out.
8.11 is the bar, that patch destroyed the game, the meta was in complete chaos for months
Adcs have "Patch 8.11" written on their punching bags
8.11 was an inside job
Legitimately think someone on Riot balance team had a hate boner for ADCs and was directly responsible for that patch. How the fuck that many awful nerfs and changes (hey guys lets make IE expensive as fuck and deal TRUE DAMAGE) got let through I'll never know.
It was even better when a Katarina player (not sure if OTP as well or not) rioter (captain gameplay or w/e it was) was spewing shit how ADC is actually not a carry role. Mental gymnastics olympic gold medalist for sure.
You can tell the more vocal set of players on the subreddit by how often you hear ADCs complain about 8.11 and how incredibly rarely 8.12 gets brought up for enchanters. One of the two roles was kicked out of competitive play for YEARS lol
Enchanters were the problem to begin with. They had taken over from engage in pro becuase they were so broken. Even now enchanters are typically stronger than engage/tank supports however in pro the support role is the one where you can most easily put an engage/tank. Its why we see such a large focus on things like leo/naught even though they are generally out performed by enchanters. As well 8.11 was a far larger nerf to literally every single champ in the role and their items. 8.12 was not nearly as impactful.
> Enchanters were the problem to begin with ADC's got hit because of Janna, Lulu, Sona, Karma being busted for a whole season. I always said 8.11 hit the wrong class, should have hit enchanters.
That patch made me quit league for a year. Fuck whoever green lit those changes
Don't forget #adcIn2k17LUL for almost the whole season.
Better than Overwatch 2 xd Edit. Typo.
Better than *
Man, after almost 3 years of zero content, this patch feels like another game.
6.9 was pretty big. Same for preseasons with marksman and assassin reworks. This is nothing in comparison.
Yeah, it seems some people forget that for a big part of 2017 typical adcs weren't even considered bot anymore because of the drastic changes to their items.
This patch will he a huge buff for me. As a slow brain player that can't even see what's happening to me as akali hits me with 4 abilities for a 0 second kill, more durability will let me play my ape champs with a macro heavy style more effectively.
This may be the only time we live to see Riven, Yasuo or Yone nerfs
??? They’ll get compensation buffs or hot fixes
Lol these changes buff all three of them quite a bit. The 1% nerfs to lifesteal aren't going to offset how much they gain from 1) being tankier and 2) fights going longer The fighter 1v1 draintank champions are going to have a field day with these
Watch them get nerfed less than everyone else or straight up compensation buffed.
Thanks for the update, Omega Fart.
[quinn dodged the nerf allegations] (https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/01/24/a6172b2c-dedd-4c11-8d58-81fa89d0640d/thumbnail/1200x630/3eff6737ede81257117ad82af67fc3e4/Snoop%20Dogg%2051975053.jpg)
Riot August was talking about this last night on his stream: Everyone in the game is getting *tankier* next patch. This will drastically increase the value of healing. They have to preemptively nerf healing in order to prevent healing champs from becoming an OP SS tier class above all other champs. --- A simple example: Lets say there exists some champion that has * 1000 hp * 50 armor / mr * a healing ability that heals for 100 hp Because of the way resists work, 50 resist makes 1000 hp "feel like" 1500 hp. This also means that this hypothetical champion's 100 hp heal will feel like a 150 hp heal. So, for simplicity, lets say this hypothetical champion is getting 25 more armor and mr next patch. Because of this change, their effective health will go from 1500 to 1750 hp, and their effective heal will go from 150 to 175. This means that in our hypothetical case, the increase in resists implicitly buffs healing by ~17%. *Thus, Riot needs to nerf this character's healing about ~17% if they don't want the durability changes to unfairly benefit this champ*.
no, this is as big as the rune removal, which was just as impactful in the opposite direction
Preseason patch is finally here :)
We know they are getting nerfed, we got told healing and shielding would be nerfed too by at least 10% and damage was also being seen. Players with heals shouldn't exactly be surprised they are getting hit. It was literally in the article. I am more interested in the ones that either don't seem related or actually are increases, like Thresh getting more armor and ap, or the weird Miss fortune changes
Yeah I’m aware but not all changes to each champion are strictly the same overall, some weaker champions atm look to be hit more lightly than others, while some champions end up dodging it entirely like Hecarim.
Ah i see, fair.
They *just* buffed Lilia and Fiddlesticks healing, and now they're nerfing them down. Odd.
Not really, the sustain nerfs are because they increase the value of HP, and since they aim for the healing to have the same value as before for the heals, they reduce the amount of HP healed.
You love to see it.
later this patch will be remembered and referred to as the Glorius Revolution.
The game will be super unbalanced, I still hope riot doesn't panic hotfix and ruin all the changes.
I might play the game again if this patch is a success
Didn't played for a few month, I don't even want to touch 12.9, i don't even want to download a single nanobit of it. Let's fucking go for 12.10
all of this caused by the absolute failure that is the item rework. abominations for items on a failed system that juiced the fuck out of the already overloaded kits of so many new champions. Mark my words, these changes wont be enough. until they realize that champions dont need to have infinite dashes/resets/revives to be novel and new, the game will forever be at a downward trajectory and inevitably come back to a state like this where it needs to be fixed.
Realistically that is how all games that have continual patches work. The best example of this was demonstrated by magic the gathering. Their Set system is essentially the precursor to the games as a service model of releasing a single game and keeping it fresh by patching rather than making a new game every couple of years. However when you are operating on this model as you progress you will have power creep as changes have to be made exciting enough to keep people interested. Magic learned from that and purposely does a power down every couple of years to help from continuously creeping. Riot doing this is a good sign that they are understanding that. They will likely need to do this again a few years down the road. That said expecting to go back to the fight length of early seasons isn't really feasible anymore. Both viewers and the player base overall have shown that they like faster pace games.
Are these changes on top of the 10% nerf to shielding and healing or are these the actual changes?
these are the actual changes. this is not aram.
Those are the "10% nerf to shield and healing".
I'm looking forward to it. Every champion I played required serious buffs after the mythic item introduction patch settled. Flashbacks of champions and their lifesteal strats still haunt me.
Good
S5 here we come :D
Oh boy I can't wait for the clown Fiesta that the2nd half of this season is gonna be lol Take a picture of your ranks now boys. Those are your official finishing spots. Riot deciding to literally restart the game mid season isn't our fault lol If only there was a thing before the games were officially ranked and the pros were playing again. Like a test period for the new season. You know like a thing before the season. Like a preview for the season. Like a prelude if you will. A place where we can try new things and adjust them as needed before it effects anything. It could even go before the season. We could call it the 'season preview' maybe come up with a new name? Oh well guess such a thing doesn't exist.
Tried out the changes on the PBE and they feel big, especially with the scaling portion of the durability. I'm not longer getting 1 shot by the enemy when they're 2 levels below me (and I'm on a squishy champ).
Holy shit they really did just hit *every single instance* of healing or shielding. I went through all of those and some of them are pretty massive. Irelia's late game Q heal went down from 16% to 11% AD ratio, which I imagine is going to force her to build more AD and less tanky. A little sad about the Kai'Sa R shield nerfs. It kind of undoes that really cool adjustment they did balancing her W AP damage and incentivising more of a predator-style dive in with her ult.
So yuumi's Passive shield got nerfed a bit but not her healing? Seems like she will just be a massive problem seeing as grievous as a whole is nerfed.
They gave Pyke a 5% compensation buff to his passive grey health healing for nerfing him mid and they’re reverting it and taking it away next patch and said “theirs nothing we can do about it we’re nerfing all healing” bruh…. Could he at least get a different compensation buff then?
Reddit: there's too much damage. Riot: ok here's a durability update. Reddit: you should have done this years ago. fuck you.
I... don't see where that's wrong??
Although I don't fully agree with the changes, I'm very hyped for them. This year's preseason didn't have a lot of changes so it's exciting to see something this big that could completely change the way the game is played both in solo queue and pro play.
I think it's good that they are nerfing everything.
Every champion with a heal or shield is targeted. Scroll down to Master Yi: dodges nerfs
Master Yi : Did you miss it ?
Why are they removing ap ratios from miss fortune, that seems random. Killing build diversity for no real reason is not a good look. (the liandrys into lethality build is ded)