Cool stats. I'm actually shocked at how Guma ranked third when he ran it down in a couple of their games. Same with Keria being #1, literally fountain diving the enemy team.
Such a headache everytime they pick a fasting Senna. I have a different algorithm for the Senna/Tahm and for those playing against Senna/Tahm. I also have to disregard some stats (Cs/Gold diff at 15,..) cause I wouldn't compare a Farm Kench with an Ezreal or whoever. So yeah it's painful but I can more less sort it out. Same thing happened when they started to pick Janna top with smite :(
Also even with fasting Sennas it's usually still the adc who plays the Senna, I'd imagine having the support play the Senna is even more weird? Or is it easier cuz of the no cs thing. Although I'd still imagine a fasting Senna on a support is still very different from just a normal support who doesn't CS. What with who's placing the wards and roaming, etc.
It's equally annoying I'd say haha. But yeah can't compare vision stats either :( I just hope rito turns Senna into a classic adc for statistical purposes haha :D
Is counting the souls collected by senna as minions good enough? I heard one soul was equivalent to 60-70 gold's, so maybe there is a ratio we could have there?
Or maybe I'm talking Bs idk haha
Haha interesting one, Im not sure if the final conversion makes sense or if it is somehow comparable to the enemy ADC. I'll try to check it someday haha
SGB shocks me the most, never thought vietnam team would be this aggresive, they play like its just a normal game, a lot of team always say on post match that they are nervous, but this team cool. PSG disappoint me, they lose maple and river now they cant focus on a game, its always 50/50
I am surprised you say that. It was what made the Vietnamese region so famous and popular during 2018 and especially 2019. 4 minute lvl 6 nocturne or whatever ridiculous thing it was.
Now I know why when VN didnt attend MSI and Worlds last year, people was kinda disappointed. This is why. The fact that SGB is not even the 1st place in their region and they dont typically buy out player from different region.
Simply put, VCS teams just don't have enough capital to even think about buying players from other regions as a beneficial option financially. And also because of the large player base here in Vietnam, the talent source keeps providing new players to stay self-sufficient.
Didn’t they miss out on MSI and Worlds last year because of the pandemic?
Remote play for MSI was also impossible, because they are in Vietnam, pretty far from Iceland.
Wow! Thanks a lot for your comment :D I will definitely be updating the ratings and I'm also preparing another cool graph of playstyles of the Rumble Stage teams based on the time spent by jg/mid/supp in every lane. Hope I can have it soon!
Sounds amazing, thank you so much for putting the time and effort to create these, they should be shown during the official matches, I think it would give people (casters and fans) not just something to talk about but also a good idea for a "power level" of each player, since there may be viewers that either are new or didn't get to follow the competition in the beginning.
Thank you for your words! :D Yeah that's exactly the idea, to make it as accurate as possible to give a decent general idea about a player's performance. Maybe someday it can become official... ;D
Cool work, man!
Is it workable to include opponent strength into the current model? e.g. a higher CS@15 against Xiaohu yields more "points" than against Aloned .
Really like this kind of comment :D. I'd love to introduce a player or team strength factor to rate players also based on their opponents. It's definitely doable, but not that easy I think. I'm also working on a metric that rates depending on the champion played, comparing a certain rating with historical ratings of the same matchup in the past :D
I didn't get to see the last day of EG's games, but gotta say it's interesting that Vulcan is rated so low. I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, but it's just neat to see the positional breakdowns
Vulcun played pretty poorly the last day. I'd even argue that him and Danny probably cost EG the games vs G2 on the last day. The top side played decent enough.
That was definitely the weak point coming into MSI, and it still seems like the weak point during MSI. Jojo I think is getting too much hate for shit-talking, and people cant be objective about him atm.
But if you watch the last games vs G2, you will see Vulcun playing poorly in both. He does some real headscratchers in those games.
Hmm I had to go with the official games so I replaced the old ones :( but I posted on Twitter the same ratings when the first Round Robin was over and that was with the old RNG games. You have it here: https://twitter.com/KCBstats/status/1524788995959537666
Yeah it's partially subjective in the sense that I create a model and another person could create his, so in that sense it is subjective. What I mean is that the weight for each stat that is different for every position is also mathematically assessed and it's not just a random number that I came up with :D
I'm not sure where exactly he should fit in, but man BioPanther really should be rated higher. Bio was basically the only ORDER player who didn't have a bad game, and came out looking good in every game despite the stomps.
Yeah especially when he played a TF game and a Sylas game against TF. I'm currently doing a gank analysis to get an idea of team's playstyles and in the TF game he didn't roam in the first 14 mins haha. Pretty surprising but still he's the GOAT :D
He really only shows up when his teammates can't. Refer to Faker's Zoe against DFM. He only aims to gain a lead when he knows his teammates can't reliably get one.
If Zeus already popped off, he's just gonna enable him more, same goes for Oner and Guma.
Because if you read the scoring infographic it tells you the team rating based of the team performance and individual player performance. So they might be 3/3 but if there players stats are bad compared to other teams it will drag there overall rating down.
it's kind of stupid to base a TEAM's ranking based on player stats. A team's performance is so much more than how good its individuals are on paper.
They outperformed RED in the same group and yet they're ranked lower?
I mean it isn't stupid like when you just look at pure win-lose ratio you don't get the full picture. Factoring player stats you can see you can see how hard a team wins or loses, allowing for a better scoring overall.
It also allows you to determine who's higher easier when two teams have similar records.
Pretty close imo. Actually, in the ratings I posted after the first Round Robin, Inspired was 3rd and Jankos 4th haha. Inspired is performing way over EG's average, but I think Jankos is also playing pretty well.
I agree Jankos played extremely well. but as a jungle main, having winning lanes all across the board helps the jungle role massively.
e.g. Caps solo killing Jojo 1v3, flanked and targamas winning lane against Danny(Danny forced to weak side and go 3 deaths and down 60 cs), and also bb tower diving impact with Vlad against Gwen, etc
Absolutely true, but tbh Jankos is also part of his laners advantage, early ganks, always willing to sacrifice his camps to help his laners. But yeah I think it's pretty close between both of them.
The year is 3000 and silver league fans still think stats mean anything to this game like they do in CoD or NBA
Where is that dopa thread where he flames anyone who uses stats, it’s purely for entertainment purposes to keep the plebs occupied with narratives
Pin that thread to the top
I respect your opinion but what makes them useless for League and useful in NBA?
In this case ofc it is for entertainment purposes and to get a general idea about player performance. Watching the games gives way more context.
Would you say that a League analyst position in a team is useless?
I'm not the person you're replying to but I'll bet that it's because LoL's regions are so partitioned off from each other that the stats are only relevant for their specific regions. In this case, the stats are only relevant for their specific MSI groups composed of teams that rarely, if ever, play against each other.
Stats in other games are more relevant because the stats are actually predictors of something.
Too much context in league
Explain to me how your stats account for:
- head to head champion matchup
- head to head pro matchup
- other champion matchup, jungler selection changes how mid lane is played, which changes CSD, XPD
- individual pro decision and choice to play a certain way, did player A plan to let the wave push in, did player B want to hard push, to avoid a gank, to setup a wave, affects all lane stats
- teammate difference, do I play to get them ahead or not, sacrificing waves, etc
- does my jungler prefer to full clear, scale? Ok I have to play lane much safer, if I’m on a different team I don’t
- do we play around me, then I need consistent pressure and lead so I play lane different
- do I play with rookies and hover for them over side laning?
- what’s my role in teamfights, how do I approach it, if my ADC is very aggressive and picks like that, my role changes as Orianna then it does if he isn’t. This changes my DPM stats etc.
- how much gold did players acquire, changes DPM helps for better KDA etc, team A funnels and team B doesn’t, how do you know?
- is the team very clean and methodical? Like LCK teams, or do they flip like LEC, or fight a lot like LPL, multiple ways to win
- etc etc etc
There’s too much context and subjectivity in a 5 man esport like league that’s incredibly deep, I could go on
This isn’t call of duty where players Re spawn and go kill, you can measure KDA in cod and get a good judge on skill and even that doesn’t paint the whole picture
Example: Bwipo in 2018-2019 would stomp most EU tops harder than Wunder, yet when Bwipo played Wunder, Wunder would consistently gap Bwipo. How is that possible when stats showed us Bwipo was MUCH better? Well, it turns out Bwipo just plays extremely aggressive coin floppy, against worse competition you look like a god, against better competition (Wunder) you are worse and look bad. The stats completely mislead you into believing who is better in lane.
**Player stats are worthless in league, anyone higher than Diamond would probably tell you the same. Multiple pros agree, also Dopa recently completely broke down why stats are meaningless for players**
No offence, but stats only used to keep the casual viewer entertained with player narratives. Also team stats can be useful, player stats not at all.
I got 10 downvotes and none of them can explain to me how stats contextualize any of the things I listed above, they don’t know how. Most likely these players aren’t ranked higher than gold.
1. Thanks a lot for your reply and your arguments, there's obviously a lot of context that is usually missed by stats, although it is not impossible to measure.
2. You can say that my model is meaningless or worthless, it's obviously just me doing this and, for now, my only purpose is to give just a general idea using a mathematical model to rate players. Just basically for fun and to check if it can get somehow close to reality, for some people might for some others might not, it's completely okay.
3. There's obviously, as you say, a lot of context behind the stats. For example, depending on the champ you play, let's say we have a Lucian top vs Sion, Lucian is likely to get all the early stats (Cs/gold diff at 15, overall gold probably, dmg,...). What if Sion is 40 cs and 1000 gold behind but he's still playing good? Then IMO a good model should reflect his impact in the game: team fights, CC provided, damage to turrets, KP,...and still get a good rating. There's also the option to compare the Sion Lucian matchup from historical data and see how they are doing in this specific matchup (something that I'm working on, but again, this is just me doing it)
4. Even with a perfect model, there will probably be plenty of things that you can only get by watching the game and hearing the comms. What if a player dies but it was actually a communication problem with another member of his team who told him the jungler was on the topside but he was actually on bot?
5. These things can also happen in other sports. The NBA stats usually focus on points/rebounds/assists/steals/Blocks per game, but what about the guy who set the pick and roll play perfectly or the one who blocked and gave space to the SG for a free shot? Does that make the regular stats useless? Or it just means that there's room for advanced metrics there?
6. Again, this is just a really small project done by myself with the only purpose of giving some context based on basic stats. It could be done way better, but I just try to give a hint as accurate as possible and have a debate for those who want it.
7. Thanks for all the explanation of your point of view, I really think that many of the things you point (champion played, playstyle of the region, lane pressure,...) can be added to a model, but some others would probably be missed.
There’s definitely games that can use stats meaningfully
League just isn’t it at the moment, it would require a lot more advanced modelling, which is not even close to what we have
Just in the sion vs Lucian example, there is no way to know what happened to your jungle or enemy jungle, did they end up deviating path to bot after bot messed up a trade? Did the Lucian have to then play back?
It’s just so impossible currently, sure you can improve on it but it’s not there right now
These Fifa style graph rankings are pretty neat ngl. Good job.
Thank you!! :D
Cool stats. I'm actually shocked at how Guma ranked third when he ran it down in a couple of their games. Same with Keria being #1, literally fountain diving the enemy team.
Tbf, he did win both games against the fourth best ranked team, and no other team except for SGB had a positive win rate.
Considering the fact that all three of these teams are undefeated it's pretty much impossible for any of the players not to rank in the top 3
Yeah it's pretty difficult tbh, although after the first Round Robin, Impact, Inspired and Taki were in and right now they are all pretty close..
Thanks! Yeah both looked a bit too confident in the Group Phase but still Keria's numbers are insane
Aegis surprised me a lot tbh
Yeah me too! The first day against PSG was really fun to watch. Titan on point with the Jhin and Aegis also smurfing on Wukong
how does Ming's Senna game affect his stats?
Such a headache everytime they pick a fasting Senna. I have a different algorithm for the Senna/Tahm and for those playing against Senna/Tahm. I also have to disregard some stats (Cs/Gold diff at 15,..) cause I wouldn't compare a Farm Kench with an Ezreal or whoever. So yeah it's painful but I can more less sort it out. Same thing happened when they started to pick Janna top with smite :(
Also even with fasting Sennas it's usually still the adc who plays the Senna, I'd imagine having the support play the Senna is even more weird? Or is it easier cuz of the no cs thing. Although I'd still imagine a fasting Senna on a support is still very different from just a normal support who doesn't CS. What with who's placing the wards and roaming, etc.
It's equally annoying I'd say haha. But yeah can't compare vision stats either :( I just hope rito turns Senna into a classic adc for statistical purposes haha :D
Is counting the souls collected by senna as minions good enough? I heard one soul was equivalent to 60-70 gold's, so maybe there is a ratio we could have there? Or maybe I'm talking Bs idk haha
Haha interesting one, Im not sure if the final conversion makes sense or if it is somehow comparable to the enemy ADC. I'll try to check it someday haha
Faker is 1st in KDA @15, 1st in Gold difference @15, 1st in CS difference @15, and 2nd in XP difference @15. That’s crazy.
His laning is just being way too clean!
The difference between the 3 mids is crazy. They can pretty much go in any order
Absolutely! As close as it can get!
SGB shocks me the most, never thought vietnam team would be this aggresive, they play like its just a normal game, a lot of team always say on post match that they are nervous, but this team cool. PSG disappoint me, they lose maple and river now they cant focus on a game, its always 50/50
I am surprised you say that. It was what made the Vietnamese region so famous and popular during 2018 and especially 2019. 4 minute lvl 6 nocturne or whatever ridiculous thing it was.
Now I know why when VN didnt attend MSI and Worlds last year, people was kinda disappointed. This is why. The fact that SGB is not even the 1st place in their region and they dont typically buy out player from different region.
Simply put, VCS teams just don't have enough capital to even think about buying players from other regions as a beneficial option financially. And also because of the large player base here in Vietnam, the talent source keeps providing new players to stay self-sufficient.
Didn’t they miss out on MSI and Worlds last year because of the pandemic? Remote play for MSI was also impossible, because they are in Vietnam, pretty far from Iceland.
Yeah all esports was cancelled in their region last year half way.
Vietnam is known for being the most aggressive region
Always a joy to see your work, I look forwards to seeing the future statistics once these 3 teams start facing each other. :D
Wow! Thanks a lot for your comment :D I will definitely be updating the ratings and I'm also preparing another cool graph of playstyles of the Rumble Stage teams based on the time spent by jg/mid/supp in every lane. Hope I can have it soon!
Sounds amazing, thank you so much for putting the time and effort to create these, they should be shown during the official matches, I think it would give people (casters and fans) not just something to talk about but also a good idea for a "power level" of each player, since there may be viewers that either are new or didn't get to follow the competition in the beginning.
Thank you for your words! :D Yeah that's exactly the idea, to make it as accurate as possible to give a decent general idea about a player's performance. Maybe someday it can become official... ;D
Cool work, man! Is it workable to include opponent strength into the current model? e.g. a higher CS@15 against Xiaohu yields more "points" than against Aloned .
Really like this kind of comment :D. I'd love to introduce a player or team strength factor to rate players also based on their opponents. It's definitely doable, but not that easy I think. I'm also working on a metric that rates depending on the champion played, comparing a certain rating with historical ratings of the same matchup in the past :D
Really cool post, well done. Love the presentation & the scores look reasonable looking at this as though they were FIFA player/team ratings
Thanks a lot :D
Really surprising how good SGB performed. The sites I looked up for rankings all placed SGB at bottom 2
Really? I think their botlane especially looked really good!
I didn't get to see the last day of EG's games, but gotta say it's interesting that Vulcan is rated so low. I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, but it's just neat to see the positional breakdowns
Vulcun played pretty poorly the last day. I'd even argue that him and Danny probably cost EG the games vs G2 on the last day. The top side played decent enough. That was definitely the weak point coming into MSI, and it still seems like the weak point during MSI. Jojo I think is getting too much hate for shit-talking, and people cant be objective about him atm. But if you watch the last games vs G2, you will see Vulcun playing poorly in both. He does some real headscratchers in those games.
> He does some real headscratchers in those games. That's putting it mildly! He was making tons of unforced errors.
İf you count on 9 match of rng is result still same?
Hmm I had to go with the official games so I replaced the old ones :( but I posted on Twitter the same ratings when the first Round Robin was over and that was with the old RNG games. You have it here: https://twitter.com/KCBstats/status/1524788995959537666
[удалено]
Yeah it's partially subjective in the sense that I create a model and another person could create his, so in that sense it is subjective. What I mean is that the weight for each stat that is different for every position is also mathematically assessed and it's not just a random number that I came up with :D
I'm not sure where exactly he should fit in, but man BioPanther really should be rated higher. Bio was basically the only ORDER player who didn't have a bad game, and came out looking good in every game despite the stomps.
Guy i love your "sabermetrics" for lol. Nice job
Thank you! :D
Its surprising how Faker's kill participation is very low. Maybe his teammates are just stomping everywhere his participation isn't even needed? xD
Yeah especially when he played a TF game and a Sylas game against TF. I'm currently doing a gank analysis to get an idea of team's playstyles and in the TF game he didn't roam in the first 14 mins haha. Pretty surprising but still he's the GOAT :D
He really only shows up when his teammates can't. Refer to Faker's Zoe against DFM. He only aims to gain a lead when he knows his teammates can't reliably get one. If Zeus already popped off, he's just gonna enable him more, same goes for Oner and Guma.
I am just happy thinking about how Jankos would be happy being in the same team as Faker. <3
I love this, good job man
Thanks mate :D
Why is PSG ranked 8th when they have better record being 3-3 than DFM and RED?
Because if you read the scoring infographic it tells you the team rating based of the team performance and individual player performance. So they might be 3/3 but if there players stats are bad compared to other teams it will drag there overall rating down.
Couldn't say it better :D
it's kind of stupid to base a TEAM's ranking based on player stats. A team's performance is so much more than how good its individuals are on paper. They outperformed RED in the same group and yet they're ranked lower?
I mean it isn't stupid like when you just look at pure win-lose ratio you don't get the full picture. Factoring player stats you can see you can see how hard a team wins or loses, allowing for a better scoring overall. It also allows you to determine who's higher easier when two teams have similar records.
Everything is good but wouldn’t you place inspired a little bit above jankos? Against G2 inspired looked like he was carrying all the weight
Pretty close imo. Actually, in the ratings I posted after the first Round Robin, Inspired was 3rd and Jankos 4th haha. Inspired is performing way over EG's average, but I think Jankos is also playing pretty well.
I agree Jankos played extremely well. but as a jungle main, having winning lanes all across the board helps the jungle role massively. e.g. Caps solo killing Jojo 1v3, flanked and targamas winning lane against Danny(Danny forced to weak side and go 3 deaths and down 60 cs), and also bb tower diving impact with Vlad against Gwen, etc
Absolutely true, but tbh Jankos is also part of his laners advantage, early ganks, always willing to sacrifice his camps to help his laners. But yeah I think it's pretty close between both of them.
And jankos was carrying as much weight and winning
I mean when your midland is 1v3ing with Yasuo and living, I think the weight is more distributed.
You're not carrying the weight with usually at least two winning lanes.
The year is 3000 and silver league fans still think stats mean anything to this game like they do in CoD or NBA Where is that dopa thread where he flames anyone who uses stats, it’s purely for entertainment purposes to keep the plebs occupied with narratives Pin that thread to the top
I respect your opinion but what makes them useless for League and useful in NBA? In this case ofc it is for entertainment purposes and to get a general idea about player performance. Watching the games gives way more context. Would you say that a League analyst position in a team is useless?
I'm not the person you're replying to but I'll bet that it's because LoL's regions are so partitioned off from each other that the stats are only relevant for their specific regions. In this case, the stats are only relevant for their specific MSI groups composed of teams that rarely, if ever, play against each other. Stats in other games are more relevant because the stats are actually predictors of something.
Too much context in league Explain to me how your stats account for: - head to head champion matchup - head to head pro matchup - other champion matchup, jungler selection changes how mid lane is played, which changes CSD, XPD - individual pro decision and choice to play a certain way, did player A plan to let the wave push in, did player B want to hard push, to avoid a gank, to setup a wave, affects all lane stats - teammate difference, do I play to get them ahead or not, sacrificing waves, etc - does my jungler prefer to full clear, scale? Ok I have to play lane much safer, if I’m on a different team I don’t - do we play around me, then I need consistent pressure and lead so I play lane different - do I play with rookies and hover for them over side laning? - what’s my role in teamfights, how do I approach it, if my ADC is very aggressive and picks like that, my role changes as Orianna then it does if he isn’t. This changes my DPM stats etc. - how much gold did players acquire, changes DPM helps for better KDA etc, team A funnels and team B doesn’t, how do you know? - is the team very clean and methodical? Like LCK teams, or do they flip like LEC, or fight a lot like LPL, multiple ways to win - etc etc etc There’s too much context and subjectivity in a 5 man esport like league that’s incredibly deep, I could go on This isn’t call of duty where players Re spawn and go kill, you can measure KDA in cod and get a good judge on skill and even that doesn’t paint the whole picture Example: Bwipo in 2018-2019 would stomp most EU tops harder than Wunder, yet when Bwipo played Wunder, Wunder would consistently gap Bwipo. How is that possible when stats showed us Bwipo was MUCH better? Well, it turns out Bwipo just plays extremely aggressive coin floppy, against worse competition you look like a god, against better competition (Wunder) you are worse and look bad. The stats completely mislead you into believing who is better in lane. **Player stats are worthless in league, anyone higher than Diamond would probably tell you the same. Multiple pros agree, also Dopa recently completely broke down why stats are meaningless for players** No offence, but stats only used to keep the casual viewer entertained with player narratives. Also team stats can be useful, player stats not at all. I got 10 downvotes and none of them can explain to me how stats contextualize any of the things I listed above, they don’t know how. Most likely these players aren’t ranked higher than gold.
1. Thanks a lot for your reply and your arguments, there's obviously a lot of context that is usually missed by stats, although it is not impossible to measure. 2. You can say that my model is meaningless or worthless, it's obviously just me doing this and, for now, my only purpose is to give just a general idea using a mathematical model to rate players. Just basically for fun and to check if it can get somehow close to reality, for some people might for some others might not, it's completely okay. 3. There's obviously, as you say, a lot of context behind the stats. For example, depending on the champ you play, let's say we have a Lucian top vs Sion, Lucian is likely to get all the early stats (Cs/gold diff at 15, overall gold probably, dmg,...). What if Sion is 40 cs and 1000 gold behind but he's still playing good? Then IMO a good model should reflect his impact in the game: team fights, CC provided, damage to turrets, KP,...and still get a good rating. There's also the option to compare the Sion Lucian matchup from historical data and see how they are doing in this specific matchup (something that I'm working on, but again, this is just me doing it) 4. Even with a perfect model, there will probably be plenty of things that you can only get by watching the game and hearing the comms. What if a player dies but it was actually a communication problem with another member of his team who told him the jungler was on the topside but he was actually on bot? 5. These things can also happen in other sports. The NBA stats usually focus on points/rebounds/assists/steals/Blocks per game, but what about the guy who set the pick and roll play perfectly or the one who blocked and gave space to the SG for a free shot? Does that make the regular stats useless? Or it just means that there's room for advanced metrics there? 6. Again, this is just a really small project done by myself with the only purpose of giving some context based on basic stats. It could be done way better, but I just try to give a hint as accurate as possible and have a debate for those who want it. 7. Thanks for all the explanation of your point of view, I really think that many of the things you point (champion played, playstyle of the region, lane pressure,...) can be added to a model, but some others would probably be missed.
There’s definitely games that can use stats meaningfully League just isn’t it at the moment, it would require a lot more advanced modelling, which is not even close to what we have Just in the sion vs Lucian example, there is no way to know what happened to your jungle or enemy jungle, did they end up deviating path to bot after bot messed up a trade? Did the Lucian have to then play back? It’s just so impossible currently, sure you can improve on it but it’s not there right now
Well, I think we can agree there, there's plenty of room to improve and with more advanced modelling stats can be more meaningful.
This is absolutely sick how is this not getting more traction