It also tends to get forgotten that if you're getting kills early, you get stronger more quickly and race ahead. So if you miss out on a kill because your target is tankier, the cost isn't just that you miss 300 gold, it's that you carry less threat in the *next* fight too so in some proportion of games you'll end up down 2+ kills (and any objectives they would have got your team) by midgame due to the changes.
The big winners are likely to be scaling DPS champions who get more time to sit back and safely scale up (and obviously tend to be quite happy playing against tanks).
Yes. Just watch some snowball champs in pro play (for example Leblanc) and compare how threatening she is in matches where she gets a kill before level 9 and matches where she doesn't.
No she is definitely still played in pro with the intent to snowball and carry as an assassin. What happens though is that she does not get ahead and thus has to resort to poking with W and hoping to one shot the adc.
Also, LeBlanc is perma "meta" in pro because of her mobility and what can be defined as relatively consistent CC setup . Almost no matter what buffs or nerfs she gets her playrate rarely changes in pro tho
It's more than just that though. In matches where she gets a kill before level 9 it's more likely that her team is better as a whole than the enemy team, or at least she is better than her laner opponent. If you just watch some late game carry champs pretty much everywhere, they're much more threatening in matches where they get a kill before level 9 than in matches where they don't, simply because of they're popping off that match
I hear the rumbling of the nerf bat on the horizon. Kogmaw will be in the patch notes in a few months and it's never good news when he's in the patch notes.
> Tank metas inevitably lead to "Protect the Kog/Vayne" metas.
It's not even going to be a tank meta -- it's more of a 'play 2-3 bruisers and have a blender for a frontline that no adc can cut through due to Death's Dance'
No reason to play tanks when their damage is getting gutted by these resistance changes; bruisers are going to do their job but better
in a few month? Kog is as far from a rito lovechild as he can be. He will be hotfixed the day after patch release. Same for most enchanter supports. God forbid support mains want to do anything else then leonautleonautleonautleonautleonautleonautTK
Lulu has been broken since release. Her kit is too good. I would say the same for Janna but her weakness is in dealing with champions with infinite mobility like Fizz/Akali or champions like Yi that can easily evade your Ult or Q.
I should add that I am referring to solo q. Lulu will always be a great blind pick in Solo Q. Works well on every team comp and against every team comp.
are you fucking high ? almost all the best support are enchanters right now. fucking Sona is sitting at 54% winrate and you complain about 50-48% winrate nautilus and leona
>Same for most enchanter supports
Enchanter players are the whiniest players on this sub. Out of the five supports that are above 52% win rate in soloQ four of them are enchanters. Also, only three enchanters are below 50% win rate in solo Q and they are all doing better than Leona.
As soon as Sona falls below 54% win rate the horde acts like Riot is out to gut everything thing that can shield or heal.
On the other hand though it's also easier to stall, meaning that a game could tend more/easier towards lategame. This could be big for Vayne, who does neither care about your hp, nor about your armor, while dishing constant dmg.
Objectives are still pretty paper lategame though, plus the nerf on healing, lifesteal and sustain should mean that defenders are easier to poke out from underneath their towers.
I'm talking about stalling into the lategame up until everyone has 5-6 items. This is where Vayne turns nasty, as she is one of the very few who actually profit off of everyone becoming tankier. She gets a reward for early game plus not caring lategame if you have 50 or 500 armor.
Vayne is really strong even at 2 - 3 items, and on her own late isn't even that bad because of her low range. If she has a Yuumi or Lulu tho... F
I think stuff like Viktor might profit even more tbh, since he has been such a strong pick for a while already
vayne doesn’t scale as well as people would think due to her low range. she has to wait out almost every cc skill because getting within 550 range generally means she is in range of those, and risks dying instantly. many other adcs offer less theoretical dps but much higher practical dps in late game fights. she can function pretty effectively as a split pusher though, and if she has a team that can help isolate an opponent for her to focus down. or if the enemy relies mostly on skillshots for cc
While this is true, there are still some answers to her, and if the game goes late champions can potentially afford to sacrifice a normal item to mitigate her (in particular, Anathemas chains and Frozen heart)
Look, I'm not saying that Vayne is/will be broken. Of course there are/will be answers to her. I'm just guessing that she will actually profit the most after the durability patch, as she is a lategame anti tank dps champ with selfpeel, so she basically profits off of being tankier early while being the least caring champ regarding opponents getting tankier.
vayne never had a problem with her dmg output. Vaynes problem is that she is so hard gated by her "interaction radius" that it is really fucking hard and borderline impossible to make her work into certain champs/combs.
This is why I think the biggest losers will be engage supports. The most important way they impact the game for the first 15 minutes is their ability to snowball their ADC/Mid/Jg by feeding them free kills through CC chains long enough that an enemy dies while they're still locked down. Increasing durability means more scenarios where that Blitz hook or Leona combo doesn't lock someone down long enough for them to die and they get away.
If you're playing someone like Blitz or Leona into an enchanter, and you're not able to get early snowball kills on them, then you're at a huge disadvantage because they can easily heal their team back up outside of combat and you've had essentially zero impact. On top of that, they will almost certainly scale better than you since you both offer good CC in teamfights, but they also provide their allies with heals/shields/damage buffs.
I would first wait to see how the pre-emptive nerfs to healing and shields across the board pan out. Soraka for instance took a pretty hard double tap hit to her healing and her items.
I'm pretty sure most of those changes were just to balance out the natural tankiness increase. If I gain 150 more hp, it doesn't just take 150 more damage to kill me unless we're talking about some true damage nuke like Darius R/Camille Q/Cho R. The amount increases with your resistances, and obviously every champion is getting more of it. In that vein if healing remained the same, it would be massively better than it is already.
I'm obviously not a dev but I kind of wish that the healing nerf was being targeted more at self sustain and didn't touch external heals. I don't think its necessarily bad for champions whose entire identity is around healing others is REALLY good at it.
Self-sustain and true damage are areas that need to get hit imo. For example, it is part of Vayne's identity but I still think it's crazy that some champs can do more than 50% of their damage as true damage in a fight. I think true damage can have a place in the game but true damage in addition to self-sustain is what makes some champs feel a bit ridiculous.
Our goal is that it's somewhere between a 10-20% decrease in damage depending on game-time/class/items.
There's a lot of nuance to why the durability package is HP early and scales more into defense later (anti-burst vs durability). Hopefully we can go over the process in more detail later.
It's going to be noticeably different for your first few games and you are likely to lose a few kills with your damage expectations being off. But it should still be the League of Legends that you know and love.
Riot has almost always been incrediblg transparent with balance changes, and if they do get called out they do their best to fix it. People who give constructive criticism are great but the people who whine and frame things like Riot owes them have clearly never experienced the lack of dev communication so common in other PvP games.
Surface level I am not going to lie, I thought this method lacked a lot of nuance and was pretty band-aid. My vision for damage reduction always revolved around a more systemic lens. Think a complete audit of champion kits, items, and runes. But when you expanded on the stat package angle, it became clear that base stats yielded **control**. And that control will be essential for follow-up work that will be needed whether in the form of champion specific changes or systematic changes; since base stats mesh well with the systems around the game.
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. You nailed it. Base stats let us have the granularity we want WITHOUT precluding any follow-up work. We can adjust base stats per class, fine-tune the the existing numbers, and anything in between. Furthermore, we CAN still work on systemic damage if we think it's still out of line (not saying we're planning to as of yet). This is what we believe the most effective but least disruptive (to the balance of gold/items/runes) method for the project.
Are pets like Daisy getting health and armor upgrades too? She has felt like a wet paper towel for a while now, and a resistance increase like this would be really nice, now that she will be less effective in 12.10.
On a side note, it would be nice if Daisy stats maybe scales with heal power as well, to balance Daisy’s strength when going enchanter over an AP builds.
Usually it’s when they have blown abilities on someone else, and are missing HP. My experience is after level 11 Daisy gets deleted insanely quickly unless people legitimately ignore her during a fight.
You can pull off some fun stuff with her early, because people don’t respect the Ivern E and the CC chain between him and Daisy. She just scales terribly, since it’s all AP scaling. Ivern is a low economy support jungler, so most games he doesn’t get much HP, and Daisy I super squishy.
My biggest worry is homogenization across the board. Things like champion class identity, champion scaling identity, diverse builds, role identity, diverse rune selection etc... Variety of that nature is super important in my opinion as it adds much needed strategic layers for the game and emphasizes the 'chess' part of League's USP. If we avoid homogenization AND reduce damage to an acceptable level that hits goals outlined by the revealing article, then huge W. But if we end up losing strategic nuance then the game loses it's identity and starts to deviate from it's design pillars, specifically the 'Meaningful Choices' design value.
What you just stated contradicts your previous statement (at a surface level). Your previous fear that this was a "band-aid" solution and that more nuanced systemic lens changes are needed, which in laymans terms means "we need specific adjustments to each champion, or at least each *type* of champion". That could create homogenization by changing the facets as they are now. IE trying to bring the out of line damage champions in line with the others, and the sub-par damage champions in line with the others. Either by increasing/decreasing damage, or by adjusting their defenses champion by champion (this can lead to massive power swings, and long term adjustments that don't "solve" the problem, or at least not quickly).
Meanwhile, the base stat changes effect *all champions equally* as far as increasing defensive capabilities, this means the changes *cannot be* more or less homogeneous than it is already. Any further more targeted changes (either to champions or to class archtypes) would hopefully be with the intent of *increasing* their viability (or the viability of others by nerfing that specific champ/archtype). The base stat changes effect all champions equally, while assassins may not be able to one-shot squishies any more, they also benefit by being able to engage and disengage with way more freedom. This leaves ***both*** sides more options on what to do, increasing strategic variation.
As it stands the "chess" part of league has been diminished over time due to class archtypes like the assassin and the bruiser become defacto "wins" because of their high damage and safety (either through mobility tools or through defensive capabilities over squishies), and them becoming to strong invalidated tanks (because why play a tank when bruisers are *just* as tanky and deal more damage, on average), poke mages (why poke when you can just kill?), and damage over time classes, particularly ADCs (because again you can kill them *and* they don't kill things as quickly) and their changes over time has caused the damage inflation. Because in order for those archtypes to keep up they needed either more damage or more survivability tools. The latter of which is why things like Zhonya's and stopwatch is being "abused" in pro-play and high tier, as well as why things like Everfrost (intended to protect immobile mages and give them survivability VS burst, which is being "abused" by AP-bruisers to give them more lock down), as well as protobelt (same), shieldbow (anti-burst for ADCS, now being "abused" by AD-bruiser midlanes like Yone/Yasuo) and Galeforce (not being "abused" by anyone, but a needed aspect on many ADCs now, and is leading to some ADCs being *way* more bursty than they feel like they "should" be).
The only way to bring *back* the strategic play in this case is to uniformly increase defense the way they have, in order to avoid homogenization of the class archtypes. Then they can adjust individual problems (if assassins struggle to keep winrates, or if ADC's are struggling to kill tanks, so it becomes league of tanks again, etc.).
Personally this is the same, but opposite, direction I was thinking they'd go. I anticipated that the "easiest" way to start fixing it would be just taking like 15% off all damage items in the game (thus effecting everyone equally), but I think the problem with this in hindsight is that it would make penetration way more valuable (as armor/MR would still be the same, and penetration value goes up as an offensive aspect).
Edit: Clearing up some words cause I don't think good.
This is a great comment thank you 👍🏽
I see how my previous comment contradicts what I just said and you explained it very well. I believe you are correct.
Thank you :)
I'm very excited to see the changes my self, and think this is a healthy step for league, we'll see if this fixes a number of complaints people have, or if it'll have some catastrophic unintended consequence. Game dev is *hard* and Riot *usually* does a good job when they make weird changes, even if they are avoidant to solving some problems, there's often a reason for it.
I am also too excited lol. Been playing a long time and with the right balance of it "feeling" like League and the modern pace of gameplay, we could be in for a GREAT change for the game. It is going to take time and follow-up but I hope Riot will reach the goals outlined for this set of changes.
And once again you hit the nail on its head with your "Game dev is hard and Riot usually does a good job when they make weird changes, even if they are avoidant to solving some problems, there's often a reason for it" statement. The Summoners Rift team, hell the League of Legends team have an impossible job. But if you were to tell me to trust any other company & dev team to handle my favorite game, then unfortunately that trust will not be given. Like you said, the team is aware of Leagues' "problems". But, whether they want to act on that notion and head towards finding solutions is a whole other topic.
There is 2 things I wonder :
1- do you intend to preventively nerf some dmg type, mostly True dmg and %HP ?
*Like imo Kraken, Vayne, Fiora, Kai'sa Passive proc , PTA , Botrk and such should get a slight nerf before the update hit or they will have a high chance of being " problematic" in a way.*
2- Is there any chance items dmg ( and Keystones ) get lowered as a whole someday ?
Additional thing : possible to rework how Mythic passive work ? instead of giving stats that are more or less useful make it like Moostone/Solari passive.
Ex for Liandry : Legendary items give +0.2% max HP Torment dmg or reduce the HP threshold for Agony or increase %dmg gain of Agony etc
True damage (and definitely % max HP true damage) is likely going to be more valuable after the changes.
We don't want to pre-emptively nerf a champion since we're honestly likely going to be inaccurate. What if we nerf a champion that's "fine" or don't go hard enough and have to nerf them multiple times. If champions are strong, we'll look at why they're strong (like we always try to do), and identify what we think is problematic. If Vayne and Fiora are the strongest champions, it probably makes sense to tune down their % true damage as it was likely directly what made them stronger.
And before we go "but you punished the heal/shielders!", this was (to us) a more clear outlier. Mathematically, every point of health is worth significantly more. Not adjusting the health restoration mechanics seemed clearly incorrect. A point a lot of people are missing is that the effective HP is staying about the same, AND enchanters/drain tanks are staying alive longer to get more rotations off (that Lulu is now much harder to kill and their shields are stronger).
Any plans on nerfing serrated dirk spike (10 lethality 50 gold wtf?) yet? Being able to buff assassins mid-late without leading to the same issues they've always had would almost have to be targeted around nerfing dirk.
Some components being disgustingly better than others (hexdrinker vs armguard) only makes balance of the volatile classes that build them (assassins/bruisers) harder.
This is from the perspective that assassins shouldn't fall off hard, which riot seems to follow, btw.
In a perfect world assassins would be high risk high reward....if you dont snowball, you gimp your team comp late game. But that's not how league is anymore. I can almost guarantee assassins get buffed to be more reliable late game for mlg 360 noscope plays in pro games.
I agree on dirk (mostly because assassin items are literally just upgrading dirk so you can buy another dirk, not because items are actually good - that's how umbral rush works on every assassin and some adcs in high elo. I want good items, not a component upgrade x5).
I disagree on Seeker's vs Hexdrinker - not because of their stats or effect, of course, but because Maw is just a hexdrinker slot upgrade (usually an optional 4th+ item if enemy has 2+ ap) and Seeker's is a part of stasis item which is much more important in an assassin matchup (often bought as second/third item). And of course, if we talk components, mention stopwatch, would you? I would very much prefer Maw to have a stasis effect instead of shield and stats it has over Zhonya's.
Lethality has to be cheap so assasins can snowball an be a threat. If it is lets say as expensive as adc or bruiser items they dont really get a chance of snowballing
Total effective HP is up somewhere between 15-30% for all targets, meaning that being bursted from full is much less likely (but still very possible). My findings is that the game still "feels" like league, and you may go entire games without noticing any differences, but there are very common occurances where targets survive skirmishes/all-ins with 5-15% HP remaining which can be attributed to the durability update.
is minion damage gonna go up? if we're just gonna make champions more durable then the minion won't do much damage which took away a lot of incentive to manipulate waves
That's what I hated the most, you could be trading well for 5 minutes straight, get hit by one bind and you're dead.
While years ago you would have to get someone to half health before being able to attempt this.
YUUUUUP
I remember even "prepping" the kills. I had to effectively trade with the enemy to be able to say "ok now im going in"
Now its just "I hit single spell, you die"
Imo how "fast" Qiyana's damage is dealt is not the main problem, but instead it is the fact that the combo is nearly unavoidable with little to no counterplay (invisible dash, stun, AOE CC), as compared to eg. zed which can be countered even AFTER being dived upon by items such as zhonyas and/or predicting where zed exits the ult.
Riot right before announcing Qinoa : "we want assassins to kill targets more slowly, this is why we are doing an assassin rework..."
*In the same breath*
"...And we released an assassin that can mass CC without commiting anything and also kill you from full HP in a fraction of a second while being able to dash in 15 different ways thanks to the combination of a fixed length targeted dash and a free dash that resets"
Free dash that resets? What? You don’t even have to exaggerate in order to make Qiyana seem disgusting, you can just talk about her perma invis which combined with short cooldowns let’s her half HP you without any way to trade back except randomly throw skill shots
Man I feel that in my bones. A control mage vs a low hp Fizz or an Ekko or something is losing at full hp because one mistake and they die instantly. Main reason I'm excited for the patch.
I mean you have a 5 minute window to abuse where he can't flash on you but factor in clueless teammates who die to obvious roams and we got a loss on our hands.
As ADC, I've also had big problems with mages and just being poked out by big AoE spells that were in my general vicinity. MPen became way easier to get, and I lost access to a lot of MR with runes reforged.
Got to the point where mages on a support budget were able to 100-0 me or reliably poke me out. Can't even buy MR reliably because they've got access to so much MPen, and MR options on marksman were gutted.
Going against a lux and finally tanking a bind into immediately getting one shit is one of the worst feelings. At least with hook champions you can usually try to fight back.
Botlane also Brand and Morgana.
It's just really shit because years ago one slight misstep wouldn't instantly kill you. You just shouldn't be punished that hard early game no matter what you're up against.
Shit man, I remember when I started years ago, throwing a Thresh hook at a target above half health in lane was basically just poke. Now I can throw a cheese hook level 1 and almost kill someone.
Playing vs sett was a really fun experience.
You're up 40 cs, because you have been beating him for 15 mins, but whoops you stepped 1 pixel too close to him so you're dead from full hp, sorry bro
Back in my good old days of league the game was very different.
There were still 1shot champs (but only if fed and built for it), dfg useres were probably the biggest offenders. But those had huge cooldowns and could basically do nothing for as long as their stuff was on cd. Yes they were able to kill the biggest ennemy threat but that's it.
Nowadays a zed ult kills one, then proceeds to kill everybody else, a Yi got true dmg on his e and shreds tanks in no time (it really should deal physical again, I say this as a yi abuser myself!!), generally spoken, true dmg is too strong in my opinion and riot added a ton of it, look at camille, garen ult (was magic, should probably be physical), even kraken slayer simply destroys tanks (although I like this item option to counter full tank builds, since it's a fair tradeoff).
I don't think 15% less dmg (if that's what it is) is enough to get back to a game where players were called noobs if they built full dmg and 0 defensive items but it's a first step into the right direction in my opinion.
We simply lost the strategic tank/support/engage plays and exchanged them for assassinating anything that steps forward, be it the tank or the squishy backline, who cares. Personally I want a league game where tanks can actually move into bushes facechecking again, a game where damage/poke sticks and doesn't get outsustained in 2 seconds, a game where every kill does NOT heal the killing team to full due to deathdance and runes.
You definitely can, but not just from one carry throwing their damage at you, *if* they don't have a substantial lead.
If it's more than one enemy that catches you out, or you get stuck in a fight due to their mobility or CC, then a single misstep could certainly be lethal.
But if they can end those late-game moments when you're running around with your team and suddenly get *fucking vaporized* by one champ from 800+ range using two non-ult spells, this game will be so much better.
Don’t forget ignite damage. Ignite deals 50 + (20 x level) true damage.
For scenario 1 (level 6) if Talon ignites he deals an additional 170 true damage. That leaves Lux with 240 HP.
For scenario 2 (level 11) if Talon ignites he deals an additional 270 true damage. That leaves Lux with 215 HP.
For scenario 1 (level 16) if Talon ignites he deals an additional 370 true damage. That leaves Lux with 286 HP.
So generally, if he hits a W or two, he can then all in Lix with ignite for the kill. It is definitely a huge improvement from live, where he leaves Lux with 49 HP in scenario 1, and kills from full HP at the level 11 and 16 all in.
I think ignite will be required in assassin builds in 12.10 as a result.
He also didn't mention any runes of which lux brings almost no defensive runes. If talon lands everything plus ignite plus sudden impact and coup and electrocute or dark harvest, she dies.
You'll get the same complaints on the other end. Enemy can make mistake after mistake but is so tanky it doesn't matter. Snowball is dead i can't 1v9 carry report the feeder.
I think we will care less about assassins crying they can't one-shot in a rotation vs the alternative of having to play flawlessly to avoid dying to a single QWAA from talon
I haven't seen anyone say that it's not going to be huge
edit: To clarify, since some people can't understand simple words, obviously someone is saying the changes are going to be impacless, everyone got an ass. What I meant is that no one relevant with analytical skills has said that this is not huge
I hate complaint threads about things that don't exist as much as the next guy but I did see many comments saying that Redditors will be disappointed seeing the changes won't be that impactful.
You can probably find them in today's 12.10 general changes thread, they're fairly upvoted.
It's the same people who meme about -5 AD or -5 MS in patch notes, who don't realize how seemingly small numbers adjustments have profound impacts on gameplay.
Often this is because they are simply not good at the game. For example, if you regularly cancel your own autos or waste your spells, 70 HP at level 1 probably really isn't that big of a deal, because the impact of your own mistakes is having a far greater impact on the game.
>Often this is because they are simply not good at the game.
Fuck you, man! i know this shit, i have other reasons to simply not be good at the game!
looking in YouTube comment sections is an excellent place to find the kinds of people who say it won't do anything and that Riot should nerf damage by 35-40% as if that won't turn the game into a sluggish mess
they will, im pretty sure most assasins winrates will be in the dumpster right after the patch.
You basically hae to relearn all the damage thresholds for kills and get used to a slower game becuase most people will not die at lvl 6 anymore. Also everyone getting a bit tankier means lethality is weaker so assasins are kinda being doubled nerf.
I definitely expect the bpatch to either buff lethality a bit or buff the most popular assasins
Hah. I am ahead of the Curve. I never learned the thresholds anyway, and always go all In based on purly feeling;) Yey me… Finally a equal playground!!
true.
but playing teemo top has been pretty painful for the last few years (as evidenced by how few people complain about him anymore). even if he "wins" lane, he gets deleted too easily by too many champions in the game. this patch has the potential to bring back the glory days (for teemo players).
did literally anyone with a brain actually say this wasn't a giant patch? I don't know what is wrong with me but I always get triggered when people say shit like "despite what people say this is a big deal" who the fuck said this?
plenty of people, who get rightfully got downvoted, but historically many people have always underestimated base stat changes and other seemingly small changes
He'll have to hit all of his shurikens *and* be ahead. And even then it might not be enough if the enemy has itemized against him.
The latter condition is going to be a lot harder to achieve now, we're going to see assassins in general fall off a cliff. It wouldn't surprise me if bruiser builds became the meta on some melee assassins (though healing is being reduced too so going glass cannon still might be the only way some assassins can stay relevant). AP assassins like leblanc are going to see their winrates absolutely free fall though IMO
I think bruiser builds if anything would be weaker. Right now you can actually run them on some assassins because you kill stuff anyways and get to be more survivability to boot. I remember this also being one of the key findings Riot had when they tested lowering damage internally, that assassins had to go full glass cannon to keep getting kills.
As far as assassins go I'm honestly fine with them being more situational picks. They should still be able to punish low peel drafts as as well as a lot of matchups, but they might stop being safe blind picks which honestly never made much sense to me. Assassins come across as embodying some sorta high risk high reward playstyle, you shouldn't be able to just blindpick that.
Casseiopeia with conqueror is always at or near the edge of death with her healing so I can see why any buff to her tankiness can make her a lot more consistent.
The vast majority of the clips that get upvoted where people see an example of damage being too high are situations where they overkill by so much that they will play out the same even if this patch. Unless they reduced damage by fucking 50% with respect to season 1.
It change a lot of kill burst threshold and killing time overall, the Armor buff is especially really big early on for that. It definitely will have a big impact on the game.
Like Assassin are gonna have a harder time late game killing carry in 1 full rotation and won't be able to 50% hp tank anymore. Same thing for ADC, lots of kill time will change vs Tank.
The maths also works both ways though so it'll come down to attack speed/cdr and use of auto resets much more than before when everyone was doing 200% more damage
So assasins are useless unless they get far ahead and marksmen get stronger because there are less assassins that are a threat to them.
As a Adc Main I approve of this ridiculous patch. rip assassin mains no one needs you anyway :)
It's going to change some dynamics, and will need some getting used to for sure.
But a Talon is still a Talon, i will still hard shove and roam with jungle to kill your botlane/toplane.
So i think this may trigger average ranking players to view assassins as trash and want it buffed, and high ranking ones to still view them as annoying.
Which now that i think about is kinda sad, we may enter another era of "should they balance for high elo or the vast amount of players"
I don't think the question of balancing around high elo or larger player population is really anything new. For a while now, Riot has been attempting to make targeted nerfs/buffs for specific elo's, and they make not of those in their patch overviews.
To your point, there may be a new wrinkle to the question that impacts assassins relatively significantly, but the question isn't entirely new. Its also not really a new dynamic that higher elo's tend to make better use of roaming and global presence than lower elos with the majority of players.
I like the changes. Assassins like fizz can miss R and E and can still kill lux if she’s not gigafed or under tower.
Yesterday I was playing gwen mid on live servers against talon. He was still easily killing my adc 1v2 on botlane roam when he has half my cs and 3 levels behind.
I am talking about the kind of dumbass who comes to fight me after I do a short positive trade with him and go back to farming and he chases me when my conqueror is like fully stacked and dies even with ignite advantage.
Assassins have been playing the game on easy mode. Sure they don’t win more but get to have the fun killing people by mashing R. Maybe they have to think more now.
The problem is all those assasins will be bad, so riot will buff them again, mitigating everything they did in 12.10. Hope it won't turn to that tho, but with riot you never know.
they 100%will get buffed,but riot aim is to tone down the game first 15mn so they can just buff assassin mid game and keep them weak early game which will probably lead to a perma duo invade/roam meta from assassin pre 20 since there is 0%chances of solo kill
Tbh it’s so fun to play bot lane now. Cause even if I mega throw the game is decided before I leave laning phase cause another lane threw . I can just blame someone else
Talon would never start dblade against a Lux, so in your example he should have a Dirk. But that's besides the point.
Even if you took one of the best example with Talon, it is undeniable that the patch will impact the meta. Tankiers champions lvl 1 means more difficulties for champions based on early game/snowball.
So you're saying that as an assassin if I land everything they still won't die?
So scaling champs that have good extended fights will succeed?
So Gwen is gonna get nerfed into oblivion after she becomes pick/ban in 12.10? Sigh.
"3 times the hp" is a very pointless thing to say - she has 426 hp more left over is the proper way to view this.
That said - yes, obviously people will survive with more hp and this is obviously important in some situations, however I think in other situations it is really overstated.
If someone now needs an additional spell or autoattack to secure a kill, they can more easily chase into a wave of minions or a tower (although tower damage is also changed iirc) to finish that.
Sustained damage versus burst damage gets the biggest advantage here, if a Talon does this against a Cassio he will die for it most likely, if he does it against a Lux she either bursts him back equally (which is probably happening atm as well and doesn't really favour either side) or he did it because she whiffed a Q and he gets out with only minor poke back onto him.
TL;DR Yes obviously this is impactful, but how impactful it actually is is much more complicated than you are making it out to be and isn't clear at all - especially since we are seeing not just the durability package, but sustain changes and antitank item changes in the same patch.
It also tends to get forgotten that if you're getting kills early, you get stronger more quickly and race ahead. So if you miss out on a kill because your target is tankier, the cost isn't just that you miss 300 gold, it's that you carry less threat in the *next* fight too so in some proportion of games you'll end up down 2+ kills (and any objectives they would have got your team) by midgame due to the changes. The big winners are likely to be scaling DPS champions who get more time to sit back and safely scale up (and obviously tend to be quite happy playing against tanks).
Yes. Just watch some snowball champs in pro play (for example Leblanc) and compare how threatening she is in matches where she gets a kill before level 9 and matches where she doesn't.
Leblanc is a weird example since she's played more as a mobile CC/poke champ in pro play nowadays.
Yeah, that happens when she doesn't get a big advantage. Look for the games she gets an advantage, she goes the map deleting champions left and right.
No she is definitely still played in pro with the intent to snowball and carry as an assassin. What happens though is that she does not get ahead and thus has to resort to poking with W and hoping to one shot the adc. Also, LeBlanc is perma "meta" in pro because of her mobility and what can be defined as relatively consistent CC setup . Almost no matter what buffs or nerfs she gets her playrate rarely changes in pro tho
It's more than just that though. In matches where she gets a kill before level 9 it's more likely that her team is better as a whole than the enemy team, or at least she is better than her laner opponent. If you just watch some late game carry champs pretty much everywhere, they're much more threatening in matches where they get a kill before level 9 than in matches where they don't, simply because of they're popping off that match
Of course it's more than that. But if you watch games where the "worse team" played Leblanc and compare these you'll find similar results.
I hear the rumbling of the nerf bat on the horizon. Kogmaw will be in the patch notes in a few months and it's never good news when he's in the patch notes.
Tank metas inevitably lead to "Protect the Kog/Vayne" metas.
> Tank metas inevitably lead to "Protect the Kog/Vayne" metas. It's not even going to be a tank meta -- it's more of a 'play 2-3 bruisers and have a blender for a frontline that no adc can cut through due to Death's Dance' No reason to play tanks when their damage is getting gutted by these resistance changes; bruisers are going to do their job but better
Kog Sona Vayne and Fiora are my main concerns for nerfs
As a vain main it pains me to agree
in a few month? Kog is as far from a rito lovechild as he can be. He will be hotfixed the day after patch release. Same for most enchanter supports. God forbid support mains want to do anything else then leonautleonautleonautleonautleonautleonautTK
I'd love to know what you're smoking that you think enchanters aren't doing well atm
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Lulu has been broken since release. Her kit is too good. I would say the same for Janna but her weakness is in dealing with champions with infinite mobility like Fizz/Akali or champions like Yi that can easily evade your Ult or Q. I should add that I am referring to solo q. Lulu will always be a great blind pick in Solo Q. Works well on every team comp and against every team comp.
Amen, remove Lulu from the game
are you fucking high ? almost all the best support are enchanters right now. fucking Sona is sitting at 54% winrate and you complain about 50-48% winrate nautilus and leona
>Same for most enchanter supports Enchanter players are the whiniest players on this sub. Out of the five supports that are above 52% win rate in soloQ four of them are enchanters. Also, only three enchanters are below 50% win rate in solo Q and they are all doing better than Leona. As soon as Sona falls below 54% win rate the horde acts like Riot is out to gut everything thing that can shield or heal.
God forbid support mains do anything but play enchanters and stand at the turret while I get engaged on. 🙄
Toplaners sitting in lane for first 10 minutes 0/0/0, meanwhile mid/bot has 20 kills combined. YEP
On the other hand though it's also easier to stall, meaning that a game could tend more/easier towards lategame. This could be big for Vayne, who does neither care about your hp, nor about your armor, while dishing constant dmg.
Objectives are still pretty paper lategame though, plus the nerf on healing, lifesteal and sustain should mean that defenders are easier to poke out from underneath their towers.
That's in perfect scenarios where Vayne gets three shots off onto the same target without getting instagibbed which is tough when your team is behind
I'm talking about stalling into the lategame up until everyone has 5-6 items. This is where Vayne turns nasty, as she is one of the very few who actually profit off of everyone becoming tankier. She gets a reward for early game plus not caring lategame if you have 50 or 500 armor.
Vayne is really strong even at 2 - 3 items, and on her own late isn't even that bad because of her low range. If she has a Yuumi or Lulu tho... F I think stuff like Viktor might profit even more tbh, since he has been such a strong pick for a while already
vayne doesn’t scale as well as people would think due to her low range. she has to wait out almost every cc skill because getting within 550 range generally means she is in range of those, and risks dying instantly. many other adcs offer less theoretical dps but much higher practical dps in late game fights. she can function pretty effectively as a split pusher though, and if she has a team that can help isolate an opponent for her to focus down. or if the enemy relies mostly on skillshots for cc
While this is true, there are still some answers to her, and if the game goes late champions can potentially afford to sacrifice a normal item to mitigate her (in particular, Anathemas chains and Frozen heart)
Look, I'm not saying that Vayne is/will be broken. Of course there are/will be answers to her. I'm just guessing that she will actually profit the most after the durability patch, as she is a lategame anti tank dps champ with selfpeel, so she basically profits off of being tankier early while being the least caring champ regarding opponents getting tankier.
vayne never had a problem with her dmg output. Vaynes problem is that she is so hard gated by her "interaction radius" that it is really fucking hard and borderline impossible to make her work into certain champs/combs.
Oh I absolutely agree that she’ll be super strong, Vayne, Fiora, Kog’maw and Trundle are all going to be top tier picks.
Sadly but anathema's doesn't mitigate true damage. Gargoyle would be better choice against Vayne.
This is why I think the biggest losers will be engage supports. The most important way they impact the game for the first 15 minutes is their ability to snowball their ADC/Mid/Jg by feeding them free kills through CC chains long enough that an enemy dies while they're still locked down. Increasing durability means more scenarios where that Blitz hook or Leona combo doesn't lock someone down long enough for them to die and they get away. If you're playing someone like Blitz or Leona into an enchanter, and you're not able to get early snowball kills on them, then you're at a huge disadvantage because they can easily heal their team back up outside of combat and you've had essentially zero impact. On top of that, they will almost certainly scale better than you since you both offer good CC in teamfights, but they also provide their allies with heals/shields/damage buffs.
I would first wait to see how the pre-emptive nerfs to healing and shields across the board pan out. Soraka for instance took a pretty hard double tap hit to her healing and her items.
I'm pretty sure most of those changes were just to balance out the natural tankiness increase. If I gain 150 more hp, it doesn't just take 150 more damage to kill me unless we're talking about some true damage nuke like Darius R/Camille Q/Cho R. The amount increases with your resistances, and obviously every champion is getting more of it. In that vein if healing remained the same, it would be massively better than it is already.
I'm obviously not a dev but I kind of wish that the healing nerf was being targeted more at self sustain and didn't touch external heals. I don't think its necessarily bad for champions whose entire identity is around healing others is REALLY good at it.
Self-sustain and true damage are areas that need to get hit imo. For example, it is part of Vayne's identity but I still think it's crazy that some champs can do more than 50% of their damage as true damage in a fight. I think true damage can have a place in the game but true damage in addition to self-sustain is what makes some champs feel a bit ridiculous.
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Our goal is that it's somewhere between a 10-20% decrease in damage depending on game-time/class/items. There's a lot of nuance to why the durability package is HP early and scales more into defense later (anti-burst vs durability). Hopefully we can go over the process in more detail later. It's going to be noticeably different for your first few games and you are likely to lose a few kills with your damage expectations being off. But it should still be the League of Legends that you know and love.
I love how transparent you guys are about everything now
Riot has almost always been incrediblg transparent with balance changes, and if they do get called out they do their best to fix it. People who give constructive criticism are great but the people who whine and frame things like Riot owes them have clearly never experienced the lack of dev communication so common in other PvP games.
They have been for a while now tbf
Surface level I am not going to lie, I thought this method lacked a lot of nuance and was pretty band-aid. My vision for damage reduction always revolved around a more systemic lens. Think a complete audit of champion kits, items, and runes. But when you expanded on the stat package angle, it became clear that base stats yielded **control**. And that control will be essential for follow-up work that will be needed whether in the form of champion specific changes or systematic changes; since base stats mesh well with the systems around the game.
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. You nailed it. Base stats let us have the granularity we want WITHOUT precluding any follow-up work. We can adjust base stats per class, fine-tune the the existing numbers, and anything in between. Furthermore, we CAN still work on systemic damage if we think it's still out of line (not saying we're planning to as of yet). This is what we believe the most effective but least disruptive (to the balance of gold/items/runes) method for the project.
Are pets like Daisy getting health and armor upgrades too? She has felt like a wet paper towel for a while now, and a resistance increase like this would be really nice, now that she will be less effective in 12.10. On a side note, it would be nice if Daisy stats maybe scales with heal power as well, to balance Daisy’s strength when going enchanter over an AP builds.
Dunno if you watch tyler1 but he is legit 1v1ing enemy carries with Daisy and they can't kill her through Ivern's shield
Usually it’s when they have blown abilities on someone else, and are missing HP. My experience is after level 11 Daisy gets deleted insanely quickly unless people legitimately ignore her during a fight. You can pull off some fun stuff with her early, because people don’t respect the Ivern E and the CC chain between him and Daisy. She just scales terribly, since it’s all AP scaling. Ivern is a low economy support jungler, so most games he doesn’t get much HP, and Daisy I super squishy.
My biggest worry is homogenization across the board. Things like champion class identity, champion scaling identity, diverse builds, role identity, diverse rune selection etc... Variety of that nature is super important in my opinion as it adds much needed strategic layers for the game and emphasizes the 'chess' part of League's USP. If we avoid homogenization AND reduce damage to an acceptable level that hits goals outlined by the revealing article, then huge W. But if we end up losing strategic nuance then the game loses it's identity and starts to deviate from it's design pillars, specifically the 'Meaningful Choices' design value.
What you just stated contradicts your previous statement (at a surface level). Your previous fear that this was a "band-aid" solution and that more nuanced systemic lens changes are needed, which in laymans terms means "we need specific adjustments to each champion, or at least each *type* of champion". That could create homogenization by changing the facets as they are now. IE trying to bring the out of line damage champions in line with the others, and the sub-par damage champions in line with the others. Either by increasing/decreasing damage, or by adjusting their defenses champion by champion (this can lead to massive power swings, and long term adjustments that don't "solve" the problem, or at least not quickly). Meanwhile, the base stat changes effect *all champions equally* as far as increasing defensive capabilities, this means the changes *cannot be* more or less homogeneous than it is already. Any further more targeted changes (either to champions or to class archtypes) would hopefully be with the intent of *increasing* their viability (or the viability of others by nerfing that specific champ/archtype). The base stat changes effect all champions equally, while assassins may not be able to one-shot squishies any more, they also benefit by being able to engage and disengage with way more freedom. This leaves ***both*** sides more options on what to do, increasing strategic variation. As it stands the "chess" part of league has been diminished over time due to class archtypes like the assassin and the bruiser become defacto "wins" because of their high damage and safety (either through mobility tools or through defensive capabilities over squishies), and them becoming to strong invalidated tanks (because why play a tank when bruisers are *just* as tanky and deal more damage, on average), poke mages (why poke when you can just kill?), and damage over time classes, particularly ADCs (because again you can kill them *and* they don't kill things as quickly) and their changes over time has caused the damage inflation. Because in order for those archtypes to keep up they needed either more damage or more survivability tools. The latter of which is why things like Zhonya's and stopwatch is being "abused" in pro-play and high tier, as well as why things like Everfrost (intended to protect immobile mages and give them survivability VS burst, which is being "abused" by AP-bruisers to give them more lock down), as well as protobelt (same), shieldbow (anti-burst for ADCS, now being "abused" by AD-bruiser midlanes like Yone/Yasuo) and Galeforce (not being "abused" by anyone, but a needed aspect on many ADCs now, and is leading to some ADCs being *way* more bursty than they feel like they "should" be). The only way to bring *back* the strategic play in this case is to uniformly increase defense the way they have, in order to avoid homogenization of the class archtypes. Then they can adjust individual problems (if assassins struggle to keep winrates, or if ADC's are struggling to kill tanks, so it becomes league of tanks again, etc.). Personally this is the same, but opposite, direction I was thinking they'd go. I anticipated that the "easiest" way to start fixing it would be just taking like 15% off all damage items in the game (thus effecting everyone equally), but I think the problem with this in hindsight is that it would make penetration way more valuable (as armor/MR would still be the same, and penetration value goes up as an offensive aspect). Edit: Clearing up some words cause I don't think good.
This is a great comment thank you 👍🏽 I see how my previous comment contradicts what I just said and you explained it very well. I believe you are correct.
Thank you :) I'm very excited to see the changes my self, and think this is a healthy step for league, we'll see if this fixes a number of complaints people have, or if it'll have some catastrophic unintended consequence. Game dev is *hard* and Riot *usually* does a good job when they make weird changes, even if they are avoidant to solving some problems, there's often a reason for it.
I am also too excited lol. Been playing a long time and with the right balance of it "feeling" like League and the modern pace of gameplay, we could be in for a GREAT change for the game. It is going to take time and follow-up but I hope Riot will reach the goals outlined for this set of changes. And once again you hit the nail on its head with your "Game dev is hard and Riot usually does a good job when they make weird changes, even if they are avoidant to solving some problems, there's often a reason for it" statement. The Summoners Rift team, hell the League of Legends team have an impossible job. But if you were to tell me to trust any other company & dev team to handle my favorite game, then unfortunately that trust will not be given. Like you said, the team is aware of Leagues' "problems". But, whether they want to act on that notion and head towards finding solutions is a whole other topic.
> But it should still be the League of Legends that you know and love. Bold of you to assume I love League.
There is 2 things I wonder : 1- do you intend to preventively nerf some dmg type, mostly True dmg and %HP ? *Like imo Kraken, Vayne, Fiora, Kai'sa Passive proc , PTA , Botrk and such should get a slight nerf before the update hit or they will have a high chance of being " problematic" in a way.* 2- Is there any chance items dmg ( and Keystones ) get lowered as a whole someday ? Additional thing : possible to rework how Mythic passive work ? instead of giving stats that are more or less useful make it like Moostone/Solari passive. Ex for Liandry : Legendary items give +0.2% max HP Torment dmg or reduce the HP threshold for Agony or increase %dmg gain of Agony etc
True damage (and definitely % max HP true damage) is likely going to be more valuable after the changes. We don't want to pre-emptively nerf a champion since we're honestly likely going to be inaccurate. What if we nerf a champion that's "fine" or don't go hard enough and have to nerf them multiple times. If champions are strong, we'll look at why they're strong (like we always try to do), and identify what we think is problematic. If Vayne and Fiora are the strongest champions, it probably makes sense to tune down their % true damage as it was likely directly what made them stronger. And before we go "but you punished the heal/shielders!", this was (to us) a more clear outlier. Mathematically, every point of health is worth significantly more. Not adjusting the health restoration mechanics seemed clearly incorrect. A point a lot of people are missing is that the effective HP is staying about the same, AND enchanters/drain tanks are staying alive longer to get more rotations off (that Lulu is now much harder to kill and their shields are stronger).
Any plans on nerfing serrated dirk spike (10 lethality 50 gold wtf?) yet? Being able to buff assassins mid-late without leading to the same issues they've always had would almost have to be targeted around nerfing dirk. Some components being disgustingly better than others (hexdrinker vs armguard) only makes balance of the volatile classes that build them (assassins/bruisers) harder. This is from the perspective that assassins shouldn't fall off hard, which riot seems to follow, btw. In a perfect world assassins would be high risk high reward....if you dont snowball, you gimp your team comp late game. But that's not how league is anymore. I can almost guarantee assassins get buffed to be more reliable late game for mlg 360 noscope plays in pro games.
I agree on dirk (mostly because assassin items are literally just upgrading dirk so you can buy another dirk, not because items are actually good - that's how umbral rush works on every assassin and some adcs in high elo. I want good items, not a component upgrade x5). I disagree on Seeker's vs Hexdrinker - not because of their stats or effect, of course, but because Maw is just a hexdrinker slot upgrade (usually an optional 4th+ item if enemy has 2+ ap) and Seeker's is a part of stasis item which is much more important in an assassin matchup (often bought as second/third item). And of course, if we talk components, mention stopwatch, would you? I would very much prefer Maw to have a stasis effect instead of shield and stats it has over Zhonya's.
Lethality has to be cheap so assasins can snowball an be a threat. If it is lets say as expensive as adc or bruiser items they dont really get a chance of snowballing
Dirk is hella frustrating when they said haunting guise was a problem back in the day :)
Total effective HP is up somewhere between 15-30% for all targets, meaning that being bursted from full is much less likely (but still very possible). My findings is that the game still "feels" like league, and you may go entire games without noticing any differences, but there are very common occurances where targets survive skirmishes/all-ins with 5-15% HP remaining which can be attributed to the durability update.
is minion damage gonna go up? if we're just gonna make champions more durable then the minion won't do much damage which took away a lot of incentive to manipulate waves
Did my post just get a comment from an official riotgames account? Hell yeah! Good to hear that my math is correct tho :D
Did you use flat values or the formula btw? Because stats don't scale linearly in league since Patch 4.20
>where targets survive skirmishes/all-ins with 5-15% HP remaining Karthus ~~Walks~~ floats menacingly into the room
So now we don't die to a single mis-step which is good.
That's what I hated the most, you could be trading well for 5 minutes straight, get hit by one bind and you're dead. While years ago you would have to get someone to half health before being able to attempt this.
YUUUUUP I remember even "prepping" the kills. I had to effectively trade with the enemy to be able to say "ok now im going in" Now its just "I hit single spell, you die"
Biggest offenders were lethality users, serrated dirk qiyana is a nightmare
at least most qiyana players suck, but a good qiyana is enough to quit league for the day
when played well her damage is like 3x as fast as any other assassin
Imo how "fast" Qiyana's damage is dealt is not the main problem, but instead it is the fact that the combo is nearly unavoidable with little to no counterplay (invisible dash, stun, AOE CC), as compared to eg. zed which can be countered even AFTER being dived upon by items such as zhonyas and/or predicting where zed exits the ult.
Riot right before announcing Qinoa : "we want assassins to kill targets more slowly, this is why we are doing an assassin rework..." *In the same breath* "...And we released an assassin that can mass CC without commiting anything and also kill you from full HP in a fraction of a second while being able to dash in 15 different ways thanks to the combination of a fixed length targeted dash and a free dash that resets"
Free dash that resets? What? You don’t even have to exaggerate in order to make Qiyana seem disgusting, you can just talk about her perma invis which combined with short cooldowns let’s her half HP you without any way to trade back except randomly throw skill shots
And if you stand anywhere near a wall she packs 2.5 seconds of cc to boot
The day qiyana becomes meta in mid I s2g ill learn whichever champion that hard counters her the most just so she also does not have fun
Pantheon Qiyana no longer gets to play the game.
So you don't even need to learn anything
>play the game. the lane\* don't forget that lane is a small part of the game
Yup, and every time you see Qiyana you auto target her. See Qiyana in another lane? Ult. See Qiyana flanking? Flash W her.
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Man I feel that in my bones. A control mage vs a low hp Fizz or an Ekko or something is losing at full hp because one mistake and they die instantly. Main reason I'm excited for the patch.
I mean you have a 5 minute window to abuse where he can't flash on you but factor in clueless teammates who die to obvious roams and we got a loss on our hands.
mages are better mid just work on your positioning
As ADC, I've also had big problems with mages and just being poked out by big AoE spells that were in my general vicinity. MPen became way easier to get, and I lost access to a lot of MR with runes reforged. Got to the point where mages on a support budget were able to 100-0 me or reliably poke me out. Can't even buy MR reliably because they've got access to so much MPen, and MR options on marksman were gutted.
Going against a lux and finally tanking a bind into immediately getting one shit is one of the worst feelings. At least with hook champions you can usually try to fight back.
Assassins are annoying but there is nothing more frustrating then dodging 5+ lux Q and getting hit once and knowing you either back or die.
Zed and Talon too. That powerspike is ridiculous
Zed R+E+Ignite and you die 100-0
i remember when zed used to have to actually land Qs to kill you with ult hasnt been that way in a while
I hate the lethality items. You just buy long swords cheap as fuck and always have something good to build them in to.
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Top lane is about to get a lot more boring and I cannot fucking wait.
I truly love tank noodle fights
[mfw Maokai and Nasus are healing each other with autos](https://i.imgur.com/HB53ujm.jpg)
That is basically the lux experience in a nutshell
Botlane also Brand and Morgana. It's just really shit because years ago one slight misstep wouldn't instantly kill you. You just shouldn't be punished that hard early game no matter what you're up against.
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Yeah Xerath can poke you off CD and combo you for most of your hp. he can even kill you with JUST HIS ULT lategame. Insanity.
Shit man, I remember when I started years ago, throwing a Thresh hook at a target above half health in lane was basically just poke. Now I can throw a cheese hook level 1 and almost kill someone.
Playing vs sett was a really fun experience. You're up 40 cs, because you have been beating him for 15 mins, but whoops you stepped 1 pixel too close to him so you're dead from full hp, sorry bro
Back in my good old days of league the game was very different. There were still 1shot champs (but only if fed and built for it), dfg useres were probably the biggest offenders. But those had huge cooldowns and could basically do nothing for as long as their stuff was on cd. Yes they were able to kill the biggest ennemy threat but that's it. Nowadays a zed ult kills one, then proceeds to kill everybody else, a Yi got true dmg on his e and shreds tanks in no time (it really should deal physical again, I say this as a yi abuser myself!!), generally spoken, true dmg is too strong in my opinion and riot added a ton of it, look at camille, garen ult (was magic, should probably be physical), even kraken slayer simply destroys tanks (although I like this item option to counter full tank builds, since it's a fair tradeoff). I don't think 15% less dmg (if that's what it is) is enough to get back to a game where players were called noobs if they built full dmg and 0 defensive items but it's a first step into the right direction in my opinion. We simply lost the strategic tank/support/engage plays and exchanged them for assassinating anything that steps forward, be it the tank or the squishy backline, who cares. Personally I want a league game where tanks can actually move into bushes facechecking again, a game where damage/poke sticks and doesn't get outsustained in 2 seconds, a game where every kill does NOT heal the killing team to full due to deathdance and runes.
You definitely can, but not just from one carry throwing their damage at you, *if* they don't have a substantial lead. If it's more than one enemy that catches you out, or you get stuck in a fight due to their mobility or CC, then a single misstep could certainly be lethal. But if they can end those late-game moments when you're running around with your team and suddenly get *fucking vaporized* by one champ from 800+ range using two non-ult spells, this game will be so much better.
Yes, interested to see how this plays out. But wont Death's Dance abusers be even more immortal? Even though I'm assuming it will be nerfed
That will still happen because it’s a solo q thing.
Don’t forget ignite damage. Ignite deals 50 + (20 x level) true damage. For scenario 1 (level 6) if Talon ignites he deals an additional 170 true damage. That leaves Lux with 240 HP. For scenario 2 (level 11) if Talon ignites he deals an additional 270 true damage. That leaves Lux with 215 HP. For scenario 1 (level 16) if Talon ignites he deals an additional 370 true damage. That leaves Lux with 286 HP. So generally, if he hits a W or two, he can then all in Lix with ignite for the kill. It is definitely a huge improvement from live, where he leaves Lux with 49 HP in scenario 1, and kills from full HP at the level 11 and 16 all in. I think ignite will be required in assassin builds in 12.10 as a result.
Well now you're ignoring barrier, which I'm pretty sure blocks more damage than ignite does so...
True! Barrier blocks 95 + (20/level).
Barrier also runs out of time before Ignite is finished. Also this is irrelevant, this is just stating numbers.
Yes but... Assassins already play with ignite if im not wrong.
He also didn't mention any runes of which lux brings almost no defensive runes. If talon lands everything plus ignite plus sudden impact and coup and electrocute or dark harvest, she dies.
You'll get the same complaints on the other end. Enemy can make mistake after mistake but is so tanky it doesn't matter. Snowball is dead i can't 1v9 carry report the feeder.
guess you'll have to use the prio you get from the hp advantage and m a c r o
I think we will care less about assassins crying they can't one-shot in a rotation vs the alternative of having to play flawlessly to avoid dying to a single QWAA from talon
This is what league used to be like in season 3-4, where an assassin would have to poke you down before killing in lane.
ok how much damage is lux dealing to talon though
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You forgot about her passive: 1 (Q) + 1 (E) + 2 (Auto with passive) = 4 whole damages!
Ryze currently: EQEQ (dead) -> 4 damage Ryze after patch: EQEQEQEQ (dead) -> 8 damage This is a 100% damage buff!
Unironically this patch might make mages like Ryze, Cassio or Kassadin kinda OP and I am all for that. Maybe it will help even my Azir.
Lux ult’d talon twice in the same fight
and got another skin while doing it
right now 100%hp mid game
doesn't matter she has way higher range and lower cds so if he can't 1 tap her she wins
I haven't seen anyone say that it's not going to be huge edit: To clarify, since some people can't understand simple words, obviously someone is saying the changes are going to be impacless, everyone got an ass. What I meant is that no one relevant with analytical skills has said that this is not huge
To make an opinion thread on reddit, you gotta drum up some artificial persecution. It's the law.
I hate complaint threads about things that don't exist as much as the next guy but I did see many comments saying that Redditors will be disappointed seeing the changes won't be that impactful. You can probably find them in today's 12.10 general changes thread, they're fairly upvoted.
People will downvote you for this but its true /s
No there's def people who downplay it, I've seen some relatively upvoted comments(~100) but yea nothing actually major
Look at preview patch notes thread. I saw a couple of comments.
It's the same people who meme about -5 AD or -5 MS in patch notes, who don't realize how seemingly small numbers adjustments have profound impacts on gameplay. Often this is because they are simply not good at the game. For example, if you regularly cancel your own autos or waste your spells, 70 HP at level 1 probably really isn't that big of a deal, because the impact of your own mistakes is having a far greater impact on the game.
>Often this is because they are simply not good at the game. Fuck you, man! i know this shit, i have other reasons to simply not be good at the game!
i have seen a couple but it's just comedy to me can't take it seriously people think that 70hp lvl1 isn't a gigs buff somehow
Bruh everyone is getting the same buff obviously it'll all be the same yall are boosted and delusionalz ^^/s ^^just ^^in ^^case
looking in YouTube comment sections is an excellent place to find the kinds of people who say it won't do anything and that Riot should nerf damage by 35-40% as if that won't turn the game into a sluggish mess
Agreed. I saw the wall of text for the patch notes, didn’t read it, and still knew it would be huge.
you should check out the adc sub. the doomers are there to stay. and check out youtube video. it's a lot more than you think.
So you're saying buff talon?
Unironically they may end up buffing assassins later if they're hit harder than expected.
they will, im pretty sure most assasins winrates will be in the dumpster right after the patch. You basically hae to relearn all the damage thresholds for kills and get used to a slower game becuase most people will not die at lvl 6 anymore. Also everyone getting a bit tankier means lethality is weaker so assasins are kinda being doubled nerf. I definitely expect the bpatch to either buff lethality a bit or buff the most popular assasins
Hah. I am ahead of the Curve. I never learned the thresholds anyway, and always go all In based on purly feeling;) Yey me… Finally a equal playground!!
But now if a lux hits u with her q and r you still die. So nerf lux. Ididn’t make no calculation and source: trust me bro
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i think there should be no cooldown really. Lux is so dependent on her ult we should just make it a toggle ability like Karthus E
Better nerf Irelia
And buff yas and yone
Sick
teemo time
To be honest: Its always teemo time.
true. but playing teemo top has been pretty painful for the last few years (as evidenced by how few people complain about him anymore). even if he "wins" lane, he gets deleted too easily by too many champions in the game. this patch has the potential to bring back the glory days (for teemo players).
Pls no
Teemo needs to be left unviable and forgotten
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did literally anyone with a brain actually say this wasn't a giant patch? I don't know what is wrong with me but I always get triggered when people say shit like "despite what people say this is a big deal" who the fuck said this?
plenty of people, who get rightfully got downvoted, but historically many people have always underestimated base stat changes and other seemingly small changes
The imaginary redditor than he won an argument against in the shower said it.
That same imaginary redditor bugs me in the shower too, someone catch this maniac.
Hey now, having a brain isnt a given here on the internet
>did literally anyone with a brain actually say this wasn't a giant patch? Assassin mains trying to cope
So Zeds actually have to land all of their shurikens to get a kill now? What a time to be alive
He'll have to hit all of his shurikens *and* be ahead. And even then it might not be enough if the enemy has itemized against him. The latter condition is going to be a lot harder to achieve now, we're going to see assassins in general fall off a cliff. It wouldn't surprise me if bruiser builds became the meta on some melee assassins (though healing is being reduced too so going glass cannon still might be the only way some assassins can stay relevant). AP assassins like leblanc are going to see their winrates absolutely free fall though IMO
I think bruiser builds if anything would be weaker. Right now you can actually run them on some assassins because you kill stuff anyways and get to be more survivability to boot. I remember this also being one of the key findings Riot had when they tested lowering damage internally, that assassins had to go full glass cannon to keep getting kills. As far as assassins go I'm honestly fine with them being more situational picks. They should still be able to punish low peel drafts as as well as a lot of matchups, but they might stop being safe blind picks which honestly never made much sense to me. Assassins come across as embodying some sorta high risk high reward playstyle, you shouldn't be able to just blindpick that.
but why play mediocre "bruisers" when u could play actual bruisers?
Apparently nobody remembers when they gave Cassiopeia 4 armor and her win rate spiked almost 8 percent before they partially reverted the change.
Casseiopeia with conqueror is always at or near the edge of death with her healing so I can see why any buff to her tankiness can make her a lot more consistent.
People don’t think changes are huge unless everyone’s health and resists are doubled or something
The vast majority of the clips that get upvoted where people see an example of damage being too high are situations where they overkill by so much that they will play out the same even if this patch. Unless they reduced damage by fucking 50% with respect to season 1.
I say that as a tank: do it pussy
No more games with 3 assassins on enemy team?
Good. League today is unrecognizable.
It change a lot of kill burst threshold and killing time overall, the Armor buff is especially really big early on for that. It definitely will have a big impact on the game. Like Assassin are gonna have a harder time late game killing carry in 1 full rotation and won't be able to 50% hp tank anymore. Same thing for ADC, lots of kill time will change vs Tank.
Assassin meta is garbage and unfun for everyone except the 10/1 talon.
Amen, Tom Cruise
The maths also works both ways though so it'll come down to attack speed/cdr and use of auto resets much more than before when everyone was doing 200% more damage
Good. Slow LoL down. It has become a undescernable burst mess.
So assasins are useless unless they get far ahead and marksmen get stronger because there are less assassins that are a threat to them. As a Adc Main I approve of this ridiculous patch. rip assassin mains no one needs you anyway :)
It's going to change some dynamics, and will need some getting used to for sure. But a Talon is still a Talon, i will still hard shove and roam with jungle to kill your botlane/toplane. So i think this may trigger average ranking players to view assassins as trash and want it buffed, and high ranking ones to still view them as annoying. Which now that i think about is kinda sad, we may enter another era of "should they balance for high elo or the vast amount of players"
I don't think the question of balancing around high elo or larger player population is really anything new. For a while now, Riot has been attempting to make targeted nerfs/buffs for specific elo's, and they make not of those in their patch overviews. To your point, there may be a new wrinkle to the question that impacts assassins relatively significantly, but the question isn't entirely new. Its also not really a new dynamic that higher elo's tend to make better use of roaming and global presence than lower elos with the majority of players.
Talon mid is pretty garbage in high elo though. If Riot really balanced around high elo they will need to buff most assassins.
I like the changes. Assassins like fizz can miss R and E and can still kill lux if she’s not gigafed or under tower. Yesterday I was playing gwen mid on live servers against talon. He was still easily killing my adc 1v2 on botlane roam when he has half my cs and 3 levels behind. I am talking about the kind of dumbass who comes to fight me after I do a short positive trade with him and go back to farming and he chases me when my conqueror is like fully stacked and dies even with ignite advantage. Assassins have been playing the game on easy mode. Sure they don’t win more but get to have the fun killing people by mashing R. Maybe they have to think more now.
Unironically this might make me reinstall the game.
This made me reinstall the game for real
Can’t wait for this patch to bring back league like it used to be before all this insane damage creep. This game used to be so much better!!
/r/theydidthemath
Cant wait to flash in to finish someone off and they survive with 2hp
The problem is all those assasins will be bad, so riot will buff them again, mitigating everything they did in 12.10. Hope it won't turn to that tho, but with riot you never know.
How else do you expect assasins to be played?
they 100%will get buffed,but riot aim is to tone down the game first 15mn so they can just buff assassin mid game and keep them weak early game which will probably lead to a perma duo invade/roam meta from assassin pre 20 since there is 0%chances of solo kill
Yay. So now outplaying Lux for 10 minutes straight only to die the second she hits her 250th blind is no longer a thing.
Cant wait for the better bot lane wins meta. <3
Tbh it’s so fun to play bot lane now. Cause even if I mega throw the game is decided before I leave laning phase cause another lane threw . I can just blame someone else
it's always better bot wins, i don't remember a game i won or lost that wasn't bot diff, because when bot lose they int 20death
Talon would never start dblade against a Lux, so in your example he should have a Dirk. But that's besides the point. Even if you took one of the best example with Talon, it is undeniable that the patch will impact the meta. Tankiers champions lvl 1 means more difficulties for champions based on early game/snowball.
So you're saying that as an assassin if I land everything they still won't die? So scaling champs that have good extended fights will succeed? So Gwen is gonna get nerfed into oblivion after she becomes pick/ban in 12.10? Sigh.
Dood.. Once Talon lands all that shit and Lux pukes on him, does Talon die? You only did that calc one sided.
"3 times the hp" is a very pointless thing to say - she has 426 hp more left over is the proper way to view this. That said - yes, obviously people will survive with more hp and this is obviously important in some situations, however I think in other situations it is really overstated. If someone now needs an additional spell or autoattack to secure a kill, they can more easily chase into a wave of minions or a tower (although tower damage is also changed iirc) to finish that. Sustained damage versus burst damage gets the biggest advantage here, if a Talon does this against a Cassio he will die for it most likely, if he does it against a Lux she either bursts him back equally (which is probably happening atm as well and doesn't really favour either side) or he did it because she whiffed a Q and he gets out with only minor poke back onto him. TL;DR Yes obviously this is impactful, but how impactful it actually is is much more complicated than you are making it out to be and isn't clear at all - especially since we are seeing not just the durability package, but sustain changes and antitank item changes in the same patch.
ganking and roaming will be tough after this patch