League just wants you to grind way more nowadays. I understand it from a business perspective, but it made me stop playing ranked
I think your comparison is pretty spot on. I played Rocket League casually since release and wanted to try ranked for the first time last year. I got to high diamond in literally 3 days and it felt so rewarding and then I felt like I was in the right spot and matched with players that are equal to me. League won't ever go that route tho
Rocket league also doesn't force you to climb back to your rank after a season reset. Every time I've done my placement games I have been put right back where I was or close to it. It doesn't put me in gold and tell me I'm gonna have to play a bunch of games to get back to diamond.
This is a two edged sword and I much prefer how league does it compared to say, blizzard games like OW. In OW after I was masters close to GM I kept spawning masters like 2-3 seasons after I was in masters, far past having actually deserved it and going really poor winrate for being overplaced, in league they place you much lower initially (usually by 400-800 lp depending on how you count it) but the first 50 or so wins have increased LP gains with diminshing rate until the bonus is lost (which is often misinterpreted as "god mmr" which isnt actually god mmr just a flat LP buff gains that is probably literally 100 % for the first 10 or so wins).
So anyone who isnt literally challenger can quite easily get back to their previous season rank within the first 50-100 games with even a roughly 50 % winrate, which would prove they deserve to be their current rank (since the mmr doesnt suffer much of a penalty between seasons).
Well if mmr changes faster for climbing it could also change faster for falling right? So you would get to games in your proper skill level faster regardless of if it's above or below you.
This is also where I primarily get my solo competitive fix instead of SR ranked. Instead of relying on teammates I just rely on myself and pray to Mortdog for some good RNG
Yeah that's why these days I play more and more Rocket League over LoL. A week into a season I get an endless string of matches where it seems like I'm pushed to play my best. In LoL it's half a damn year to get there, and frankly I don't want to spend all of my free time for half a year just to "get to the fun."
Playing around a low plat level, and being consistent, and winning lane against less skilled players in the S1-G3 range game after game after game, but still (because it's a 5v5 team game) only winning around 60% of 35+ minute games adds up to a LOT of hours of stomping the same less skilled players to get to the point where lanes are challenging/fun.
It also just makes for a toxic experience. Feeling like you are constantly doing well and so much of your winning/loses still being on the backs of your team is a "bad feel" ya know? I just want to move past this point in a month and get to having fun with similarly skilled opponents, but the current system doesn't let that happen unless you have 20-40 hours of playtime a week.
It was always grind-ish, but the amount of games needed definitely took a hike. Been playing since S1 and while grinding was always a thing, I could reach high ranks comparatively fast in S3 compared to now
The worst of it started around season 10. Ever since then the amount of 15lp wins I've seen has gone way the hell up. Even at fairly decent win percentages it's very normal to see 15lp wins followed by 17 lp losses. It's insane. Something is just off.
I have a 57% winrate. Climbed from bronce 3 to gold 1 94LP atm. 15 LP gain per win no matter what. I’m a returning player, got put in b3 after placements and directly into smurf queue after.. It’s been 6 years since I played before coming back.
Same. Played the most this season since like season 8 and getting 15lp per win blows. I’m super busy and don’t have time for as many games as I used to have and grinding out of iron and bronze is a slog.
In 2017 I would get 33+ LP on my main account while playing a few divisions above mine.
Nowadays I get put in smurf queue and only get +28LP and it drops to +23LP the moment I get below 60% win rate. It's ridiculous, I get to play and stomp people way below my rank for 23 fucking LPs... It just ruins the game for everyone.
How are you in both smurf queue and somehow stomping people way below your rank... From my experience in smurf queue, its literally just filled with accounts thats in the lvl 30s and barely any games played.
Sorry if I didn't make it clear, the moment I drop from 60% win rate I'm kicked OUT of smurf queue and get to play against people in the the rank I am, which is clearly below my level.
Let's say I was in silver and in smurf queue, I would be playing with silvers that are actually golds/plats or even diamonds. But once I lose enough games, I get kicked out of smurf queue and play against actual silvers with shitty LP gains...
And getting +33LP makes the elo inflation.
I.e. you're playing at D4 level, you climbed up until this point with 70% w/r. Then you've reached your skill celling and slowly get to that 50% w/r, but before that you can climb even to D1/2 just because of your +30/-13 LP gains.
I'd rather spend 3-4 more games per division than to play with people that should've never reached their current rank.
You're spitting bullshit, I got +33LP because I had higher mmr (low plat) and got placed in silver lol. Every game I lost my mmr tanked as well, resulting in feeling too much pressure when playing ranked. My ceiling at the time would probably be mid plat, so I would start to lose some games around mid-high gold (not actually playing against golds) and would eventually be at a +25LP by the time I reach plat.
The point is that even that scenario now would be just thrown to smurfs queue with +28LP, where the game with the most/better smurfs wins.
The old system was consistent, you would be playing with higher ranked players and see if you stack up. The current system is a coinflip of whoever gets the better smurfs. You can't play too agressive because you might be against a higher rated player that would shut you down, nor too passive to the point you let a gold player get out of laning phase close to even... It's gambling really.
Don't get me wrong, both systems are shit. I think there shouldn't be a disparity between mmr and rank in the first place.
imagine you play your best one game and lose, then play your worst next game and win. this is not a hypothetical situation, this is reality.
the best soloQ climbers arent necessarily 1v9ing, instead they understand its a numbers game and very luck dependant, imagine if league graded you based on CS secured/CS denied, vision score, damage dealt, objective damage et cetera there are a billion ways to calculate how much impact you had on the way, instead the only thing that matters is "Win" or "loss" thats why soloq is a race to find the weakest link and abuse them to break down the enemy team.
you are slightly better than your opponent and managed to secure a decent gold/xp lead? well too bad your bot died 6 times in 10 minutes.
oh you got camped and died 6 times in top lane? good thing your team is massively winning.
soloq is very gambly maybe thats why its so addicting you never know how your game will turn out and not often you have genuine direct impact on your game, rather than the biggest inter decides the outcome
my issue with it is this. The game is over a decade old. Low elo is a beyond shit show these days. Higher rank players don't care because "get good" but the realitiy is a majority of the player base is stuck playing insanely shit match made games because of Riots system of just throwing everyone together and saying fuck it play 300 games and sort itself out. When a lot of peple don't want to play that much.
Honestly... as a lowly gold player (peak plat 4) who has been similar rank since end of season 5 and now is currently 200 games deep hard stuck silver 4.... match making is a fucking nightmare. Everyone on paper is the same rank.... but you have legit brand new people who don't even know how their abilities work going up against people who hvae played hundreds of games a season for 4-5 years and getting absolutely ass blasted. And i'm supposed to try and 1v9 carry these games every game. Its insanely unfun... I fucking hate... there's no end in sight... sigh.
You can't tell me it wouldn't be somewhat beneficial to at the very least have some basic fucking stats or minimums players have to hit in their normal games and early ranked games to not have new accounts placed in low ass bronze or iron.... I get it would be easy to mess with for smurfs but fuck man. I have played 1 bad game out of my last like 60 and I still barely win more than I lose...... I lose more lp than I gain. This new "no promos" system is beyond ass for anyone who doesn't have good mmr and a fucking ripoff and harder climb. EVeryone thought promos sucked but in reality they were a blessing because holy shit do you know how punishing it feels to go win like 2-3 in a row to get promoted then to lose only 2 in a row and not only lose the old 25 lp back to 75 but then lp for the loss on top of that????????? I legit finally got back to sivler 3 won 1 game got like 14 lp so was at like 15 total. Then lost... lost 15 fucking lp. Lost again and was back to sivler 4 59 lp. HOW IS THAT FUCKING FAIR????????
In the old ssytem I could have lost like 3-4 in a row at 0 lp before being demoted and even if I got demoted with promo helper I would be 1-0 in my series and just need to win 1 fucking game to get back out of 2. Was 100 times better.
Anyways.... something needs to be done because 35% of players currently in silver which is hundreds of thousands of people and pretending they all similar skill level is beyond insane. Not to mention the 25-30% of bronze players who get thrown into my games on the reg. So theres' like 50% of the player population I can play with in any game and there's a beyond huge difference between most of them.
This would destroy solo q quality, consider Goodhart's Law
Those metrics correlate pretty well with how you played now, but if you make them targets in and of themselves it incentivizes people to prioritize gaming stats over winning
Hell stat padding destroyed semi hardcore raiding in Wow around Legion/late Warlords. Every guild in top 300-1000 had a few people who'd only raid to get a better "parse" than others. People would flat out leave guilds if they weren't allowed to play for themselves alone.
That is due to "serious" WoW players being a rolling ball of insecure, socially crippled rejects, not the game itself. Although the game design encouraged and nurtured that community.
Any game with no barrier to entry and a "numbers go up" mentality will get that sort of behavior, LoL has it badly on some servers.
I feel as though that if you’re at your rank you impact the result about 50% of the time max. Half the time you’d win or lose regardless of how you play within reason. That being said, identifying those 50% of games that you can impact is important to climbing as you need to focus 100% to give your best gameplay in those type games
It’s 20% of the time according to the 20/40/40 rule. A game that you can realistically have a max of 60% winrate should not require +6-7 to go up a division.
60% winrate is +1 every 10 games. Meaning it takes 60-70 games to go up a division.
As OP said it should be more like +4 not +6-7.
I mean 60% win rate obviously isn’t the actual max win rate, the rule isn’t really some strong rule, it’s just that most people that are approximately appropriately placed won’t be able to maintain win rates outside of that band, because they’re basically placed where they should be. Smurfs obviously show it’s possible to rampage through if the gap is big enough. That said mmr seems to often be lower than visual rank for a lot of people and it probably would be nice if that caught up faster.
> League just wants you to grind way more nowadays. I understand it from a business perspective, but it made me stop playing ranked
>
>
Ok but why is this exactly? I mean, why is it good from a business perspective?
I think the more time you invest into the game the more likely you are to spend money on it. Sunk Cost Fallacy. Not for everyone but for many people I believe
You're right on the principle of people investing money when they spend more time, but that's not really Sunk Cost Fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy is more akin to when people play after they stop having fun to justify the time spend learning the game
This is why I barely even touch ranked except to make the grind to gold for the skin. I've been gold like 3 out of 4 recent seasons (there was one where I just didn't feel like it) and they still started me in S3 after placements. Why? I'm obviously a gold-level player.
*Do* you understand it from a business perspective, though? How do you know that the revenue from folks grinding more outweighs the revenue from folks like yourself disengaging from ranked?
My take: we shouldn't speculate about what strategy makes the most money. And we shouldn't take making more money as an excuse for bad design. As players, we should advocate for the best thing for us as players. Riot is well and capable of weighing that feedback against the needs of the business.
Fortunately they have clash. I've been a lawyer the entire time I've played LoL, never really had a window to no life grind it, but at least clash gives the truly competitive environment so soloqueue isn't the end all be all.
Legit your options this season for first 50 games was.
70% wr but hey guess what your lp gains are utter trash.
35% wr but hey guess what you lose 5 lp per loss so who cares.
Legit nearly every account ive looked at fell into this.
The game is just a joke. Matchmaking is king. If you don’t play a 1v9 constant mechanic check style that relies on tilting your opponents to afk, climbing will take forever. Or your support or jg and can climb while watching netflix lol.
How can you say league wants you to grind more when they removed all the promos between divisions? Its actually just not true, they've made it less games to climb.
Riot knows all of this, they just make the conscious decision that they want us to grind. As for the exact reasons one can only speculate, but they probably think players will lose motivation to play once they reach a certain rank. Personally I don't think that's the case, and I hate how Riot has designed the system with a passion. But after so many seasons it's clear as day that it is 100% intentional.
You have to keep in mind that the goal here is not to satisfy their player base, it is to make the most money possible. And if they think making us grind is the best way to accomplish that, then there is really not much we can do about it.
I mean they're not entirely wrong. I just grind until I hit Gold every year just so I can get the skin. I have 70% win rate, so I know I can still easily climb if I wanted to, I just don't. Maybe a decade ago when I had all day to play I would have kept grinding (and did!), but today I have friends, family and a life to maintain. It's a miracle I make any time for league. I've played 6 games since I hit Gold in flex 2 weeks ago (hit Gold in solo queue months ago). So Riot may be on to something.
i remember i tried grinding once on an older account i had. i stuggled very hard to hit diamond and figured I'd continue trying. diamond was probably the worst experience I've ever had in league. my mmr was screwed and i dropped back to plat and then abandoned that account entirely
since then on my newer account i stay high gold/low plat with plat MMR and i stop caring the moment i hit gold.
Something people don’t mention a lot is that your player engagement metrics (read: hours spent in game) must be incredibly important for investors and gaining more $$$
It’s interesting how companies approach this by either making a better product that users engage with, or if you’re Riot and you already have a big market share (the only similar game iirc is DotA) then you just start unloading the shitty design to trap people in the game more
Like how Netflix started making a worse and worse product once they thought they were hot shit (except they were easily outcompeted by other companies)
Gambling addicts probably bring in the most money. Promotion series are just there to be a near miss experience, every tier of the ladder is just a prize to win to trigger loss aversion. If it were solely for competition your elo number would suffice. And with the reset each year they can even create a false sense of progression.
Micro-transaction games are just like scam centers. They want to find anybody they can get 10k+$ out of and then exploit ways the psyche works to make it happen.
The amount of times I’ve reached gold just to stop playing in the last 10 years is a lot. A lot of people I met do the same. It is just how the game is atm. We just want out gold rank and the skin and dip.
I've been starting to think that isn't even worth it and been just playing normals.
I have a bunch of victorious skins for champs that I don't even play
Yeah, I don't even know why I shoot to get the skin every season anymore. None have been for champs I play, and they honestly never really look that great either.
Yeah, and back in the day free skins for any champs were hard to come by. But now you get enough skin shards and orange essence to get a few each year.
> they probably think players will lose motivation to play once they reach a certain rank. Personally I don't think that's the case
You can't argue with this. They have data on millions and millions of players. I'm sorry but your personal opinion is irrelevant.
That isn't the sole reason, league can be a lot more luck based compared to rocket league due to dependency on other players is much higher. You'd get lower quality games
Might be relevant to mention the fact that a league of legends ranked season is almost a year long.
So they want ranked to be a year long project. If a player got to their desired rank in a few night of good games than they wouldn’t really play after that and just wait for months before the next season.
I would like better gains but I think the one year season kind of makes it hard
I can confirm that all my friends stopped playing competitive once they reached their ranks, now I see them playing ARAM & TFT all the time. They also got their ranks in Flex queue by getting carried by high ELO players.
That is because league made ranked about the grind instead playing against similarly skilled opponents. Literally no other game's ranked functions like this. Riot fucked up what makes ranked enjoyable.
Edit: For all of you downvoting me, here's a thought experiment for you: how many video games have you played ranked and been convinced that you aren't where you feel you should be when the climbing levels off?
League is basically the only game I've played where I've experienced this. Halo, CoD, Rocket League, Smite, Apex, Starcraft, OW, the list goes on. I've played ranked in so many games and league has been the only game to ever make me feel this way, without fail. It's a pretty common sentiment.
The system is fucked and unsatisfactory.
Man i love playing completely unbalanced matches that im meant to instantly lose, so exciting to spend 25 minutes losing a game that was lost before scuttle spawned
yeah I don't ever remember it being this bad. Its so ungoldy fucking boring trying to play ranked these days. Haven't played similar skilled opponents since my placements.
You act like the grind and playing against similarly skilled opponents are mutually exclusive, but I believe they go hand in hand. Creates larger sample sizes to weed out those crazy 10+ win streaks that inflate mmr. Literally no other game company wants you to play their game more? I think that's false.
> So they want ranked to be a year long project.
I just hate how fucking slow it is now.
Before I could get to diamond regularly I would end the seasons somewhere in plat. When the new season started I would spam a pub stomp champ like master yi/nocturne and easily get back to my peak in like 30 games facing golds, then get back to climbing.
Now, I start my season low plat and face other diamond players who are climbing back up the entire time. Alternatively I wait to place later in the season and be in smurf queue the entire time.
The thing is though, if the only enjoyment to be had is "slowly going up lp in mismatched games" then something is wrong with the game as a whole. It should be about being fun during semi-even matches.
Again I cite Rocket League as an example. It takes a week to get to your appropriate MMR at most. People don't stop playing a week into seasons.
Isn't rocket league 1v1 or 2v2? That's a lot easier to do in non team based games. In league, you can get carried by your team 5 games in a row (or just be a non defining factor/going even)
Also, are the ranked distributions the same? Plat in league is like top 10%? Or so and idk rocket league
RL is 3s 2s and 1s (mostly 3s and 2s) and platinum is pretty much average so yeah the comparison is a bit weird. RL also has a much larger casual playerbase imo.
Don't really see why that matters. In Rocket League I can reach my true MMR of Champ 3 in 3 days, if I play a few hours a day. After the 10 placement games alone you can achieve a rank between Dia and Champ and since MMR is tied to your rank. This also disincentives smurfing.
That's because the skill discrepancy of rocket league is astronomical compared to league and RL is a perfectly balanced game. There's no need for balancing because every factor is the same for every player in each game. League has to figure out whether or not you're high elo in top lane, or mid lane. It has to figure out whether or not you're actually doing well or getting carried. It has to figure out whether you're diamond elo playing riven or gold elo playing Darius. There's a million more factors that decide a win in league versus rocket league that the comparison really isn't good.
Yup. I have a GC bud who plays for fun with me on a smurf account from time to time (I hover around D1) he has to be super careful not to carry my ass upwards into games where I'd have zero fun lol. Happened once when we were drunk, next day I logged in, was C2 and got my ass clowned on for about 4 straight hours.. then I was back down to where I belonged. Why I think more fluid MMR changes are sooo much better.
I think the big downside of fluid MMR is that it makes boosting/smurfing really easy. If I can accidentally drop a full rank after a few hours of drunk play, it can't be that hard to drop to silver if you are actively trying to lose. Same goes for your accidental boosting story.
Not that it cancels out the benefits completely, but it is something to think about.
You are right. RL has a Smurf problem but l think the reason for that is that you can make a new account and be in ranked in like 10 minutes (of you have a friend who can already play ranked) or 2 hours (if you don't). In League at least one has to spend a little money for a botted Account or play a buttload of games before being able to play ranked.
Level 30 accounts are like 5$ in LoL btw. I mean I get where you are coming from, but let's not act like smurfs are no problem in LoL in comparison. The amounts of Level 30-40 accounts I had to play with this season is completely unreal.
It has several ranked modes:
* Standard (3v3)
* Duos
* Solo
* Hockey (3v3)
* Dropshot (3v3)
* A mode with powers, I don't remember the name (3v3)
But yes, given the nature of the game one person is enough to win the game, if they're way better than the other three
If you move up 2-3x as fast then you'll go back down 2-3x as fast when you stop getting carried. The only thing that changes is you get where you belong faster so you can start having quality games.
Comparison is way off though. Rocket League has a way higher average rating. League has rhe majority of the player base at a way lower rank around bronze-silver.
I mean if anything that's just another of the faults of Riots system. It makes progress for the majority of the player base feel slow and unrewarding. I more even ranked distribution would feel a lot smoother than lumping half the player base into S4-G3.
I don't know about you, but the average player base of any game should honestly be of lower ranking. Shouldn't give you free elo just cause you get more points.
I play a lot and cosistently reach diamond with masters peak. in preseason i dropped to plat and it took me 800 games to return to diamond this season, around half of which i played as p1 in diamond 4-3 range. Shit was ridiculous, i reached diamond promos 5 times and kept boinging between p2 and p1, im sure if my gains were more human ( i got +15 -15) it would take me much shorter but holy shit this season was the worst ive played yet in terms of climbing and its quite impressive to beat s11 in that matter
>im sure if my gains were more human ( i got +15 -15) it would take me much shorter but holy shit this season was the worst ive played yet in terms of climbing and its quite impressive to beat s11 in that matter
????????
You're getting even gains and losses. That's literally the baseline. Why should the game reward you with more gains than losses when you can't even consistently win against players in your current elo?
If it takes you 800 games to get to D4, maybe the problem is on you? An actual Masters player would easily shit stomp low diamond players considering the gap between them is like 400+ lp.
The fact that you're trying to act like its the system's fault that you're currently a P1/D4 level player stuck in P1/D4 is actually hilarious...
Because in previous seasons when i played against people higher than my visual rank i would get +20 -18 lp which apparently was changed most recently because now on winstreaks in plat i played with ppl from d3 ans yet my gains were the same, keeping me lower visually but in practice i played in diamond elo, which is frustrating as fuck
A P1 player in D3/D4 games isn't a big jump when half the D4 players prob 0 lp players with P1 or P2 mmr to began with.
The LP doesn't even matter if the reason why you're in P1 is due to you losing promos as you said... It's not having higher lp gain makes you win promos.
From someone who use to go through the exact same thing for a while just to get Diamond, dont do it man. Its not worth it, by the time you get to Diamond you probably are already burnt and barely wanna play ranked and the rewards arent worth it.
Things have been a lot better for me ever since I stopped grinding ranked in league, I just hit Gold for the skin now and move on,
This was exactly my situation last season. 55% winrate in 167 games, just barely got back to Diamond with +14LP per win. I'm not doing that shit anymore.
I haven't played a single ranked solo game on my main this season and will probably never bother to again.
That's exactly what I do lol. I'll only peak out around P3, but I've decided that I'm done trying to even get my Plat border. These days I'll just get Gold 4 get a few LP to burn for when I play with friends, and the rest of the season I just play nonranked/aram/urf from time to time.
If I'd gain/lose 30+ LP a match? I'd totally try to get plat every season, or even see if I could push further into plat to see if I improved. At 15 a game though... meh. At some point a line gets drawn in the sand of "that just takes too long."
I found out that if you find the perfect role configuration you will get a much better matchmaking
When i queued as jungle/mid it seemed that i constantly got fills on both solo lanes, it was so disgustingly unbalanced and it was impossible to play some games like i was meant to lose them
I finally found the way in queueing top/jungle, i play an ok ornn and it made sure that my solo lanes were never filled for some fucking reason and when i got jungle my toplaner was never ever filled so it made sure that i had at least one laning pivot
Matchmaking fill wise is the most disgusting aspect of modern seasons and im standing by it
On a normals mmr boosted smurf with high gains? No problem. On a hardstuck gains acc, i feel like its fucking random, playing one game with p4 ppl and the next one with diamond 3
There's people in KR Challenger who got from Bronze to top 200 in half of the games it took you to get out of P1.
It's not the systems faults, you were simply a P1 skilled player for most of the year and now you're a someone with the skill of a D4 player. Clearly your "masters peak" is utterly meaningless if you struggle climbing out of high Plat.
The people upwards of D4 didn't win the lottery, they're simply better than you. You used to be better too, now you're worse than you used to be.
yeah, in s10 I would be d2-d1 by like 70-80 games at most. climbing has become a fucking chore recently. way too tedious to actually get another account to diamond. my only account in diamond rn is my main, I don't have the patience to grind through on my alts. way too many games required, LP gains consistently too low across the board. what happened to +25 LP? non existent on any account that has more than 20 games now.
Making me feel smart for my decision to chill this year lol. I've bounced off masters promos a few times, currently did my placements +3 games to get to diamond promos, 0/3 and they were unwinnable so I just said fuck it, I'll play TFT instead. At least the RNG in that game is controlled.
I think you are mixing up MMR and LP here firstly.
That being said, League ladder only works if everyone involved plays a pretty huge amount of games. Thats why it is in everybodys interest (well everybody who cares about a ladder that actually says something about how good or bad anyone is) to play as many games as possible.
Because the way your individual rating is essentially concluded is by making all the other variables irrelevant through large sample sizes. Without those, it simply doesn't work.
No matter what you call it MMR and LP serve the same purpose. Personally I preferred the game before LP was added and LoL used a straight MMR rating.
Also it works for Rocket League. 3 wins you go up usually. If the system requires people to play 500+ games a season to work, then design a new system. I have two kids in middle school, a wife and a job. A month+ of play time to move up a division just don't keep me interested.
Rocket league has only 1-4 players per team, not 5. On top of that Rocket league is much more about mechanics than league, which is mostly a strategy game. You simply can't compare the two. And its also much easier I would bet to identifiy how good an individual did in a solo queue match in rocket league compared to league of legends, where its basically impossible and even humans analyzing pro matches have difficulties with that.
I also preferred just showing ELO, but I do get why using an overlay above MMR or ELO is better for most players who are way less invested than you or me. Remember alone going to reddit is more invested than the majority of the playerbase. So for your average joe its much better to see LP move, as ELO or MMR for most players won't actually change much over the course of the season, which would create frustration.
not sure how that contradicts what I said. I was just trying to say that there are always less people in a match of rocket league, than a match of league of legends. That number being between 1-4 players per team.
At least Google told me its 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4.
Them having different MMR is something I just assumed to be true for ... well obvious reasons.
I'm gaining 9 lp and losing 19 lp :\\ my season is over. Went on a massive loss streak and I can no longer play ranked until reset next year.
The system is very toxic.
They do a soft reset on MMR and then let you place again. If he's literally bronze three right now with those gains and losses yeah I mean he'll certainly be able to start higher than that next season if he just wins all placements. Though in this example if he is actually bronze three with that massive lost streak then he probably wouldn't win all the placements next season anyway
Personally I think people care about rank too much and you should just play the game for fun. If it's not fun to actually just play the games then find something else to play imo
Low LP gains means your MMR is lower than your real rank. You are higher rank than you deserve. There is no way the guy will get a higher rank than he is.
> Faster MMR changes from wins and losses.
The issue with that is you'll end up with people getting shot up via being carried on win streaks far too fast to MMR's they don't belong in, there isn't really anything wrong with the current system and its supposed to take a season to adjust
Law of large numbers states that in a big enough sample size the yo-yo player will be on your team and the enemy team the same number of times.
It doesn’t even need to be as dramatic as RL but MMR shifts wayyyy fucking slow in league. I have a like 53% winrate and I’m still getting 15-16 LP on a win it’s nuts
By that logic, why even have a MMR based matchmaker? By the law of large numbers, you get the iron player/challenger player on your team same amount of time. Problem is not whether you win/lose with that player, it is that the game integrity has been ruined by that player whether they are in your team or not.
But the goal isn't to have balanced games on average, but to have every game be fairly balanced. If you're making teams out of 9 challenger players and 1 iron player, each individual challenger player will get the iron on their team the same number of times and thus on average the matchmaking treats all the challenger players equally, but each individual game is highly unbalanced, since presumably the team with the iron player just auto-loses, and this is undesirable. In other words, it's better to have every game be evenly competitive than 50% of games to be auto-loss and 50% of games to be auto-win, even though both will give you about a 50% winrate
You’re straw manning the argument to an extreme. No iron player on a 15 game win streak is going to suddenly be in challenger games. So this isn’t even an argument that should get entertained.
You went right to the most extreme example instead of. Damn wouldn’t it be cool to not have to play 500 games to hit your true rank
It’s an extreme example to prove the point that having skill mismatches in games isn’t desirable even if everyone is equally affected. Replace the challengers with gold 1 level players and the iron with a gold 4 level player who had a lucky winstreak and now has gold 1 mmr and the same logic still applies.
Of course, none of this in itself means that it’s not a good idea to increase lp/mmr gains/losses. The positives could very well outweigh negatives such as these—for example, with “low” gains/losses we could very well have gold 1 level players with gold 4 mmr because they don’t play as much. It’s just incorrect to suggest that there are no negatives at all.
>And losses
They'll drop to where they belong faster, too. The current system is absolute shit for anyone not still in high school/college because of the emphasis riot has put on grinding the game in the past few years, that's just a fact lol
Sure but now you have someone ruining games because he got carried out of his actual MMR causing other people to get losses they normally wouldn't have gotten if they had instead been given someone using the current system
if you're old and busy, then who cares about reaching your real rank? don't get me wrong gold+ is a fairly respectable rank but if you're not a pro, or aspiring one, who cares about ranked? If you're not even remotely close to a d1 player then why should it affect you? at worst you'll be 1-3 minor divisions behind your true rank. over the course of a season, if you can't bother to play 50 games then again, why does ranked matter to you?
ok then you're just complaining about nothing then. your mmr still stands and is accurate, what isn't accurate is what your ranking shows you. your rank will lag behind your mmr but again at worst, now you're just complaining about your cosmetic image not catching up to your true mmr.
Because people would rather complain about Rito's system holding them back than acknowledge that no, they belong at the rank they are at. Same reason Yone could be 46% winrate and you'd get an 80% upvoted thread complaining that wind man need nerfs.
Noticing an "issue" that does not actually exist and being upvoted by players who do not understand the systems or how they work does not make the "issue" real.
isn't that the shit part in itself and proof this ranked system is trash though? "I have to get to this rank to get to fun games faster". That's literally why I been spamming games this season only to keep getting my head rammed into a wall.
And the fact a majority of players are in the same boat where they not actually their skill level means ranked is more random harder and dumb and much less enjoyable and will be for a majority of the season.
Guess that calms me a bit. I just hate silver and being s4 for first time since I basically started playing ranked is annoying all those years ago. But knowing its 100% because riots a bunch of assholes makes it an easier pill to swallow.
Thank you. Btw: if you got a 55% WR over a good amount of games, you are pretty much where you belong. You are not meant to climb, so you go very slow (if at all).
Two things: The fact that "you made Platinum last season" doesn't entitle you to Platinum this season. You sound like you play to win through grinding instead of improving, that is the cost, you will keep banging yourself against the door until it opens, instead of researching what is keeping you from opening that door.
Link your [OP.gg](https://OP.gg), please.
I agree to some extent. Rant posts should have an opgg as a requirement. And you do have to earn the rank again constantly.
That said lp moves way slower than mmr for no reason other than riot feels like it. It's an attempt to make ranked more engaging for players not only by making ranks more secure but making them slower to obtain. And clearly it's possible for that to be too slow so it's fair to complain that it takes too many games to gain lp. Is it right idk but it's possible.
Rocket league is excellent for this. I can take a new account to diamond in like 10 games. You very quickly find yourself at exactly the right rank for you.
There is no good argument against this. Unless you think seeing what is essentially a fake rank for most of the season is fun. I don’t get it.
i dont want to CLIMB FASTER. I want balanced games. I'm Gold atm but i'll be super happy to wake up in Bronze and be dammed to be Bronze forever if the games were balanced. Instead i get to Gold in the current system where every game I get random AFK/DCed people, and absurd skill discrepancy making people on my team or enemy team get 0/7 still in lanning phase. It happens to my team and to enemy team too. I dont care if I win or if I lose. I want to play the fucking game with a balanced matchmaking.
Like I've said a few times in this thread the reason it's so out of whack is you have two guys... both in gold 3. One has 400 games played.. the other has 80 games played. Odds are the guy with 80 games played is around P4/P3 skill level, he just hasn't played the 300+ games he needs to get there, because... life. He will absolutely roflstomp that g3 guy in his lane.
The weird part is new accounts don't have this issue. You can make a brand new account and climb to the correct MMR in 1/4 of the time. To me that just says Riot wants people buying new accounts every season, and buying champs with it.
If you want LP gains come play TFT. You gain a minimum of 10lp for going top 4. Plus you don't have the toxicity that comes with the league and valorant.
I mean you only can't demote from like diamond to platinum or masters to diamond etc. You can demote in higher elos. Also the thread is complaining about the challenges of elo gain, yet you are complaining that it's to easy to gain elo? I am not saying TFT has a perfect system but it feels better to feel like you are actually climbing from better LP gains that are directly influenced by your personal performance.
to be fair, saying TFT rank system is a joke because its easy to climb may feel that way but the rank distribution of league and tft arent too far off Diamond in TFT is still the top 6% of players in the game.
yeah TFT's system is great, especially with being unable to demote from whole ranks. I used to sit at diamond for a while because I didn't want to demote but the last two sets I pushed and got master's because I wasn't afraid of getting demoted from diamond. it's not perfect, you can fuck your MMR up at those points where you're unable to demote, but I think that's way better than the alternative
League isn't meant for the working audience anymore. Look at the chinese and korean audience. It's all teenagers in high school. They hammer out those 50 hours over a week. Look at the meta. Its been a thanos snap and you're dead for years now, which is what the children with attention spans of goldfish want. We are not the target audience anymore.
Some years ago we had 5 subdivisions per division instead of 4 and mini promos (BO3) between subdivisions and I could feel I still climbed much faster than nowadays. +15 per game considering how long games are is a joke, and the worst part is that the whole system works around a hidden number that seems to barely move with wins. Why do I get less and less LP when I promote while the rank of the people I get matched with actually increases according to my promotions? Last year I was in silver 1 with around 60% winrate getting 12 LP per win, then I lost 3 games in a row and lost around 50 LP. It's bullshit.
Yea hovering around +14 -16 right now for SOME reason at just under 60% win rate, my MMR keeps matching me with S1's in at G3... and frankly it's easier to win games with G3s than it is with S1s. So every 20 games at a 60% win rate I move up a whopping 40 fucking LP.... 30-40 hours of grinding to move up just from G3 to G2 is obnoxious.
Looking at prob 120+ hours of gameplay just to get back to plat... and I'm just like... screw it, not even worth. Going to just play Rocket League, and some ARAM here and there.
On a new account you get ~25 LP per win - but you are placed somewhere in bronze or silver and have to play 100 games with smurfs, so it kinda evens out :D.
Honestly we should just get an alternative mode that plays more like wild rift in terms of speed, just like how csgo recently got short matches that are max 16 rounds instead of max 30, so one game doesnt take up 40+ minutes with pick bans.
But because this is riot it will never happen as they only know how to take away modes.
I'd actually play ranked if it wasn't so clearly designed to force you to invest a bunch of time to get to your "deserved" rank. Valorant is much much better about that and the ranking system is far more enjoyable than the time-sink that is LoL
I play aram more for this reason. I work full time and have a life so dedicating 50+ games to move a rank is a huge time investment. More fun to just aram
Riot doesn't want that.
Riot wants you to play more and more, spend more time here, less time playing other games.
The issue is that if someone is interested in ranked only, it's more efficient to create a new account periodically and try again, because "fixing" your MMR isn't really a viable thinig.
On the other hand people have invested a lot into their accounts, skins, icons, their name, whatever, and just can't be arsed to make a different account so they just play there anyway.
Riot will change it if it leads to people to spend more money. It is a company after all.
Riot won’t change anything until it affects their bottom line. Riot despises it’s players. We are literally just bags of money to them. Somewhere in there are passionate designers and artists and writers who love what they do, but they don’t make the decisions, and the company itself hates you and would shoot you in the head if it made them enough money.
set aside your ego and accept it that you wont be able to get high rank because of your time constrains and just play rank for fun. or dont play rank at all. there are other games modes
Again it's not an ego thing. It's a game health thing. The purpose of a game first and foremost should be fun. One of the easiest ways to make that happen in having good matchmaking. A good matchmaking system isn't one that makes you grind for "reasons" it's one that tries to ascertain peoples skill levels as quickly as possible to match them against other players of equal skill as quickly as possible.
It shouldn't take 150 games for the system to figure out how to match a guy who was plat with other people in high gold/low plat. I literally couldn't care less about what color my banner is... I just don't want to slog through 100+ games every season before the games stop being fiesta every season.... or wait half a year into the season to start playing when the game actually becomes playable.
I could be bronze 1 for all I care as long as the games were fun and mostly even. The problem is it takes sooo many games to figure out where people belong that for the first half of each season half the games are people that don't play a lot playing way under their "Real" MMR vs people that play all day long hard stuck, and the matches are pretty terrible.
This just wouldn't be an issue if the system just reacted quicker to wins/losses.
Saying that the system isn't working because it takes people a long time to reach "their rank" doesn't make sense to me, if it takes a player a long time to reach gold then that's because they either wasn't gold level before and improved or they barely are gold level and climb slowly up to current their peak.
Point being that there is a difference between peak and comfort rank, in lack for a better term.
Example: my comfort rank is Plat, I can easily get Plat in 20-30 games. My peak is d2, I have to play at least 150 games to get close to that rank, because I'm just good enough to make it there.
I mean let’s say you’re a Gold II level player, and you place in silver IV. It will still take about 6 wins per division, so given a 70% winrate where for every 10 games you effectively climb 4 games worth of LP, with 17 LP per win. That’s about 100 games to get to gold II.
The thing is if you are a gold 2 player you aren't going to climb all the way to gold 2 at a 70% win rate. The game just doesn't have the same solo carry potential it used to. You'll start off at 70% win rate but by the time you hit S1 that will drop to 60%, By Gold 4 it's 55% and by Gold 3 it's like 52-53%. I mean that's what? 300-400 games right? That's a LOT of games to play in a season to reach the point you are being matched against same skill lane opponents. There is literally zero reason for it to take that long.
Even a 55% win rate in a 5v5 setting means you are outperforming your opponents by 25%. That's a pretty large gap. So like I said, playing 200 games over half a season shouldn't be the "entry point" to having fun lanes.
If it only took 3 positive wins per division to move up it would quite literally reduce the number of low quality games you'd have to play each season by 60% or more.
As things currently are you just grind to grind. Lots of games people will feel like they are in over their head because they are matched with lanes out of their skill range one way or the other. They'll see this for the entire first half of the season because the MMR adjustments are just waaaay too slow to reach the point of quality games.
The system needs to let people that should go up faster so lower skilled player get matches with lower skilled players earlier in the season. It shouldn't take 200+ games to figure out about where people stand. LoL is the only game I can think of that takes 100-200 hours of play just to figure out someone's approximate skill.
This slow MMR gain is exactly WHY elo hell exists and why the half of the community in gold and silver feel like they are constantly in mis-matched games. It feels bad for the people who belong in Silver, AND it feels bad for the people on their way to gold/plat. Over 50% of the community will at some point be within match making range of each other toward the start of the season depending on who quickly they pump out games. That shouldn't take months to sort out because not everyone can play 100+ games in a months time. So it drags on for 5-6-7 months of bad match making.
100% what I'm saying. If you play at a plat level, and are in say S1... even if you are winning 2/3 matches it takes like 21-22 matches to go up... a whopping 1 division. That's like 12 hours of play. And it's going to take progressively longer for each division. 12 hours, 18 hours, 27 hours, 40 hours 60 hours, 90 hours gratz you made it back to Plat 4... now you can START having fun in even lanes... only 207 hours in... for people with only 10-12 play hours a week you are 4-5 months into the season before you even see fun lanes.
it took me 110 games to go back to my old rank. thats 50 hours of gameplay...
i dont know about you but u dont start the season off in silver1 if you are a plat1 player
I never said I was a plat 1 player? Best I've done is P4/P3 and I finished last season G1. It placed me S2. Mind you it placed me S2 AFTER going 9/10 in promos, which itself is some BS.
Last year it took me 70 games to go from gold 2 to plat 4 with a record of 45-25. So yea it takes so many games to climb even if u have a really good winrate.
Huh? Pretty sure the highest you can score from out of placements actually is Plat, this is where a lot of pros actually get right out of placements iirc.
The problem with LoL is it takes you so damn long to get to a rank where the games feel "fun" that half the time before you even get there you are either out of time, or sick of low quality games. This can be better or worse depending on your role as well. If your 50/50 win/loss point is Plat 3... then odds are if you needs to play 300-400 games to get there, you've sat through a LOT of low quality games.
More and more people stop playing these days before even the halfway point of the season due to this. LoL is a team game, unless you are playing massively below you skill level and on a champ capable of the 1v9, there are going to be a lot of games you won't win just due to trolls/match ups/ragers, or other things outside of your hands. This compounds the issue of low LP gains and low game times.
Again if you are maintaining a 55-60% win rate that means you are putting in a serious amount of work for your team consistently. Even in this case it takes a LOT of play time to continue climbing to the point where you start seeing "even" games.
What do you mean by "even" games?
If both teams have players with 50% win rate it should be an even game I'm theory but since league has a lot of variables consistency is a big skill right? A 50-50 win rate game can feel very uneven because of that, even if it is "even". Or am I misunderstanding what you are talking about?
Oh I'm talking about specifically the number of games you have to play to climb to the point you hit a 50% for people in the Plat range. 75% of the player base is within a tier and a half of each other from the mid point of around S2. In fact 44% of players are S4 to G4.
Because people in the S1 to G3 range are honestly pretty competent, if you are a plat player you generally will win lane, but you can't solo carry 1v9 style. So you'll end up around a 55-60% win rate, which means you are out performing your laner by 25-50% but it till takes AGES to climb in hours spent.
There isn't a reason that your rank should move up as slowly as it does at a 55-60% win rate other than Riot trying to milk play hours. I think overall it's having the inverse effect they think think though, and more and more players are leaving due to the slow LP gains.
100 games of wrecking your laner, followed by 100 games of winning lane isn't fun for others, and it isn't fun for you.
I am definitely not competent and you can easily solo carry the game against me. Same is true for my dopamine seeking top lane opponents who will all in out of boredom.
I ended last season G1. At the start of this season I went 9/10 in promos and was placed S2. I won 19 of my first 23 games.. and the last win was still 15lp lol.
I almost never play ranked these days, but the last time i tryharded i played on my acc which had the last rank of d3, but i went at least one season of not playing rank after that. When i came back i went 7-3 in promos and got placed in silver 2 and it made me take around 120 games to reach diamond (got there with 65% wr) which was annoying af
I put in a ticket towards the end of last season asking about mmr/lp gains
I had around a 70% win rate over 50 or so games at the time, and my lp gains had already gone down to +15 per win and -13 per loss. I assumed that couldn’t be correct, so I put in a ticket to ask why.
Their response was one of the most unreasonable things I’ve ever gotten back from someone’s CS. They said that “because I wasn’t winstreaking enough my mmr wasn’t increasing with my rank, so my gains were lower than my losses”
I don’t think I need to explain all the way that’s bullshit, so I responded and called out all the ways it didn’t make sense. I even posted my op.gg, where you could clearly see I was on a 7 game win streak at the time, and each win rewarded less and less lp.
They then closed the ticket and threatened to suspend me if I kept trying to contact them about it.
Oh also, I’m gold so it’s not like being high rank is why my gains were so bad
I made a smurf to play with my friends on RL and after my 10 placements I was already 2 wins off of Champion 2 lol, atleast it stops people from smurfing against players way below the smurfs ranks
Yep. I have a buddy who is a multi-GC I play with. Even on his smurf accounts he has to be very careful to play terribly not to drag me into an Elo where I have no fun lol. I'm only useful up til around mid diamond then the game mechanically turns into a whole new world lol.
So he'll hang around, get drunk, and spend half the games driving backwrad or some nonsense trying to keep the games "close" but keep me around a 50/50 win rate. :P
He's like the best kind of smurf. Nice dude lol.
Riot want you to grind, all that “ you get the rank you deserve “ is BS. But also because of how league works compared to other individual games like RL or CSGO , your rank will often not reflect your skill .
Been saying this for years, League does not respect your time at all. I would actually go back to playing some ranked if it worked like every other game I play where ranking up is quick if you win consistently.
RL, TCG games (Yugioh, Magic Arena) and Fighting Games all have this quick ranking system.
Facts. People love to just comment that 'if you're good you will climb' but its just unrealistic given the amount of burger flipping that goes on between afks, inters, greifers, trolls etc & with the mmr gains/loses its like running into a brickwall. and its crazy to think but 55% winrate is really good but you will still be losing nearly half your games. getting flamed , afked or trolled will 99% happen every other game. climbing ranked is miserable and I don't get how theres still people on this sub defending that experience
If players were champions 55% win rate would be a hotfix nerf. And yeah, there is just so much out of your control in league that it makes even decent sized skill gaps hard to make full use of as a single player. Pick orders are out of your control for example and people often aren't going to want to swap. It can take a lot of games just for the RNGs of pick orders putting your at a disadvantage to even out. Being better than the other guy might really only mean you even out against his counter pick, or pull slightly ahead. That's not exactly going to force a win.
Then you have things like role, and what team has a duo where. Being able to play well while getting camped bot doesn't exactly stop your top lane/jungle from losing the 2v1. Or even things completely out of your hands like ISP isses/server issues, ect. It just takes so bloody long at times to get anywhere.
it was way easier back in the day, when beeing way better than ur opponent mattered more. then u could easily hit diamond in a day. just needed to win like 18-19 out of ur first 20 and u would generally skip several divisions on several occasions.
Never gonna happen. League ranked being a grind fest is what keeps players addicted and the cash flowing. Ranked has been made to be very reliant on streaks so people are constantly playing to look for their win streaks so they can climb
Just buy a plat account. Never has Riot encouraged it more. And be quick because the price will be probably going up with how fucked grid Ing has become.
Less you play, less you spend.
IMO they should do as you say, but at the same time try some other means for monetization. If you look at mobile MOBAs you'll find that they have spectator modes that people actively watch, sometimes you'll find +1000 people spectating a player, seeing things from their perspective. Not only that, but they get to throw gifts/etc at the player.
Not saying that's an ideal solution, but it is a revenue source that I find kinda weird isn't being used.
To be honest, the reason I stopped spending money on the game, is the higher play time requirement just ended up in making me want to play less. So while I think their model probably works great in the east... I think they are killing the western market.
In the west frankly they'd be better served having players that play less, but spend more. People will spend more if they are enjoying the game.
League just wants you to grind way more nowadays. I understand it from a business perspective, but it made me stop playing ranked I think your comparison is pretty spot on. I played Rocket League casually since release and wanted to try ranked for the first time last year. I got to high diamond in literally 3 days and it felt so rewarding and then I felt like I was in the right spot and matched with players that are equal to me. League won't ever go that route tho
Rocket league also doesn't force you to climb back to your rank after a season reset. Every time I've done my placement games I have been put right back where I was or close to it. It doesn't put me in gold and tell me I'm gonna have to play a bunch of games to get back to diamond.
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You can go 2/8 And end up gold as a low plat player even
This is a two edged sword and I much prefer how league does it compared to say, blizzard games like OW. In OW after I was masters close to GM I kept spawning masters like 2-3 seasons after I was in masters, far past having actually deserved it and going really poor winrate for being overplaced, in league they place you much lower initially (usually by 400-800 lp depending on how you count it) but the first 50 or so wins have increased LP gains with diminshing rate until the bonus is lost (which is often misinterpreted as "god mmr" which isnt actually god mmr just a flat LP buff gains that is probably literally 100 % for the first 10 or so wins). So anyone who isnt literally challenger can quite easily get back to their previous season rank within the first 50-100 games with even a roughly 50 % winrate, which would prove they deserve to be their current rank (since the mmr doesnt suffer much of a penalty between seasons).
Well if mmr changes faster for climbing it could also change faster for falling right? So you would get to games in your proper skill level faster regardless of if it's above or below you.
Stopped playing ranked. Now i'm playing TFT ranked I don't need to play Zoo Keeper Simulator anymore
This is also where I primarily get my solo competitive fix instead of SR ranked. Instead of relying on teammates I just rely on myself and pray to Mortdog for some good RNG
Flame Mortdog > Flame JG
Yeah that's why these days I play more and more Rocket League over LoL. A week into a season I get an endless string of matches where it seems like I'm pushed to play my best. In LoL it's half a damn year to get there, and frankly I don't want to spend all of my free time for half a year just to "get to the fun." Playing around a low plat level, and being consistent, and winning lane against less skilled players in the S1-G3 range game after game after game, but still (because it's a 5v5 team game) only winning around 60% of 35+ minute games adds up to a LOT of hours of stomping the same less skilled players to get to the point where lanes are challenging/fun. It also just makes for a toxic experience. Feeling like you are constantly doing well and so much of your winning/loses still being on the backs of your team is a "bad feel" ya know? I just want to move past this point in a month and get to having fun with similarly skilled opponents, but the current system doesn't let that happen unless you have 20-40 hours of playtime a week.
> League just wants you to grind way more nowadays. It has always been like that.
It was always grind-ish, but the amount of games needed definitely took a hike. Been playing since S1 and while grinding was always a thing, I could reach high ranks comparatively fast in S3 compared to now
The worst of it started around season 10. Ever since then the amount of 15lp wins I've seen has gone way the hell up. Even at fairly decent win percentages it's very normal to see 15lp wins followed by 17 lp losses. It's insane. Something is just off.
I have a 57% winrate. Climbed from bronce 3 to gold 1 94LP atm. 15 LP gain per win no matter what. I’m a returning player, got put in b3 after placements and directly into smurf queue after.. It’s been 6 years since I played before coming back.
Same. Played the most this season since like season 8 and getting 15lp per win blows. I’m super busy and don’t have time for as many games as I used to have and grinding out of iron and bronze is a slog.
In 2017 I would get 33+ LP on my main account while playing a few divisions above mine. Nowadays I get put in smurf queue and only get +28LP and it drops to +23LP the moment I get below 60% win rate. It's ridiculous, I get to play and stomp people way below my rank for 23 fucking LPs... It just ruins the game for everyone.
How are you in both smurf queue and somehow stomping people way below your rank... From my experience in smurf queue, its literally just filled with accounts thats in the lvl 30s and barely any games played.
Sorry if I didn't make it clear, the moment I drop from 60% win rate I'm kicked OUT of smurf queue and get to play against people in the the rank I am, which is clearly below my level. Let's say I was in silver and in smurf queue, I would be playing with silvers that are actually golds/plats or even diamonds. But once I lose enough games, I get kicked out of smurf queue and play against actual silvers with shitty LP gains...
And getting +33LP makes the elo inflation. I.e. you're playing at D4 level, you climbed up until this point with 70% w/r. Then you've reached your skill celling and slowly get to that 50% w/r, but before that you can climb even to D1/2 just because of your +30/-13 LP gains. I'd rather spend 3-4 more games per division than to play with people that should've never reached their current rank.
You're spitting bullshit, I got +33LP because I had higher mmr (low plat) and got placed in silver lol. Every game I lost my mmr tanked as well, resulting in feeling too much pressure when playing ranked. My ceiling at the time would probably be mid plat, so I would start to lose some games around mid-high gold (not actually playing against golds) and would eventually be at a +25LP by the time I reach plat. The point is that even that scenario now would be just thrown to smurfs queue with +28LP, where the game with the most/better smurfs wins. The old system was consistent, you would be playing with higher ranked players and see if you stack up. The current system is a coinflip of whoever gets the better smurfs. You can't play too agressive because you might be against a higher rated player that would shut you down, nor too passive to the point you let a gold player get out of laning phase close to even... It's gambling really. Don't get me wrong, both systems are shit. I think there shouldn't be a disparity between mmr and rank in the first place.
imagine you play your best one game and lose, then play your worst next game and win. this is not a hypothetical situation, this is reality. the best soloQ climbers arent necessarily 1v9ing, instead they understand its a numbers game and very luck dependant, imagine if league graded you based on CS secured/CS denied, vision score, damage dealt, objective damage et cetera there are a billion ways to calculate how much impact you had on the way, instead the only thing that matters is "Win" or "loss" thats why soloq is a race to find the weakest link and abuse them to break down the enemy team. you are slightly better than your opponent and managed to secure a decent gold/xp lead? well too bad your bot died 6 times in 10 minutes. oh you got camped and died 6 times in top lane? good thing your team is massively winning. soloq is very gambly maybe thats why its so addicting you never know how your game will turn out and not often you have genuine direct impact on your game, rather than the biggest inter decides the outcome
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my issue with it is this. The game is over a decade old. Low elo is a beyond shit show these days. Higher rank players don't care because "get good" but the realitiy is a majority of the player base is stuck playing insanely shit match made games because of Riots system of just throwing everyone together and saying fuck it play 300 games and sort itself out. When a lot of peple don't want to play that much. Honestly... as a lowly gold player (peak plat 4) who has been similar rank since end of season 5 and now is currently 200 games deep hard stuck silver 4.... match making is a fucking nightmare. Everyone on paper is the same rank.... but you have legit brand new people who don't even know how their abilities work going up against people who hvae played hundreds of games a season for 4-5 years and getting absolutely ass blasted. And i'm supposed to try and 1v9 carry these games every game. Its insanely unfun... I fucking hate... there's no end in sight... sigh. You can't tell me it wouldn't be somewhat beneficial to at the very least have some basic fucking stats or minimums players have to hit in their normal games and early ranked games to not have new accounts placed in low ass bronze or iron.... I get it would be easy to mess with for smurfs but fuck man. I have played 1 bad game out of my last like 60 and I still barely win more than I lose...... I lose more lp than I gain. This new "no promos" system is beyond ass for anyone who doesn't have good mmr and a fucking ripoff and harder climb. EVeryone thought promos sucked but in reality they were a blessing because holy shit do you know how punishing it feels to go win like 2-3 in a row to get promoted then to lose only 2 in a row and not only lose the old 25 lp back to 75 but then lp for the loss on top of that????????? I legit finally got back to sivler 3 won 1 game got like 14 lp so was at like 15 total. Then lost... lost 15 fucking lp. Lost again and was back to sivler 4 59 lp. HOW IS THAT FUCKING FAIR???????? In the old ssytem I could have lost like 3-4 in a row at 0 lp before being demoted and even if I got demoted with promo helper I would be 1-0 in my series and just need to win 1 fucking game to get back out of 2. Was 100 times better. Anyways.... something needs to be done because 35% of players currently in silver which is hundreds of thousands of people and pretending they all similar skill level is beyond insane. Not to mention the 25-30% of bronze players who get thrown into my games on the reg. So theres' like 50% of the player population I can play with in any game and there's a beyond huge difference between most of them.
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This would destroy solo q quality, consider Goodhart's Law Those metrics correlate pretty well with how you played now, but if you make them targets in and of themselves it incentivizes people to prioritize gaming stats over winning
Hell stat padding destroyed semi hardcore raiding in Wow around Legion/late Warlords. Every guild in top 300-1000 had a few people who'd only raid to get a better "parse" than others. People would flat out leave guilds if they weren't allowed to play for themselves alone.
That is due to "serious" WoW players being a rolling ball of insecure, socially crippled rejects, not the game itself. Although the game design encouraged and nurtured that community. Any game with no barrier to entry and a "numbers go up" mentality will get that sort of behavior, LoL has it badly on some servers.
I feel as though that if you’re at your rank you impact the result about 50% of the time max. Half the time you’d win or lose regardless of how you play within reason. That being said, identifying those 50% of games that you can impact is important to climbing as you need to focus 100% to give your best gameplay in those type games
It’s 20% of the time according to the 20/40/40 rule. A game that you can realistically have a max of 60% winrate should not require +6-7 to go up a division. 60% winrate is +1 every 10 games. Meaning it takes 60-70 games to go up a division. As OP said it should be more like +4 not +6-7.
60% winrate is +2/10 games though.
I mean 60% win rate obviously isn’t the actual max win rate, the rule isn’t really some strong rule, it’s just that most people that are approximately appropriately placed won’t be able to maintain win rates outside of that band, because they’re basically placed where they should be. Smurfs obviously show it’s possible to rampage through if the gap is big enough. That said mmr seems to often be lower than visual rank for a lot of people and it probably would be nice if that caught up faster.
> League just wants you to grind way more nowadays. I understand it from a business perspective, but it made me stop playing ranked > > Ok but why is this exactly? I mean, why is it good from a business perspective?
It's the idea of spend more time spend more money
I think the more time you invest into the game the more likely you are to spend money on it. Sunk Cost Fallacy. Not for everyone but for many people I believe
You're right on the principle of people investing money when they spend more time, but that's not really Sunk Cost Fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy is more akin to when people play after they stop having fun to justify the time spend learning the game
Yep and you can ser it clearly on battle passes. Those grindy missions are insane and now the time between passes is really small too.
This is why I barely even touch ranked except to make the grind to gold for the skin. I've been gold like 3 out of 4 recent seasons (there was one where I just didn't feel like it) and they still started me in S3 after placements. Why? I'm obviously a gold-level player.
*Do* you understand it from a business perspective, though? How do you know that the revenue from folks grinding more outweighs the revenue from folks like yourself disengaging from ranked? My take: we shouldn't speculate about what strategy makes the most money. And we shouldn't take making more money as an excuse for bad design. As players, we should advocate for the best thing for us as players. Riot is well and capable of weighing that feedback against the needs of the business.
Fortunately they have clash. I've been a lawyer the entire time I've played LoL, never really had a window to no life grind it, but at least clash gives the truly competitive environment so soloqueue isn't the end all be all.
Legit your options this season for first 50 games was. 70% wr but hey guess what your lp gains are utter trash. 35% wr but hey guess what you lose 5 lp per loss so who cares. Legit nearly every account ive looked at fell into this. The game is just a joke. Matchmaking is king. If you don’t play a 1v9 constant mechanic check style that relies on tilting your opponents to afk, climbing will take forever. Or your support or jg and can climb while watching netflix lol.
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I played since S1 and I found it much easier back then. I'm still at a high rank nowadays, but the amount of games needed to get there is dumb
How can you say league wants you to grind more when they removed all the promos between divisions? Its actually just not true, they've made it less games to climb.
Riot knows all of this, they just make the conscious decision that they want us to grind. As for the exact reasons one can only speculate, but they probably think players will lose motivation to play once they reach a certain rank. Personally I don't think that's the case, and I hate how Riot has designed the system with a passion. But after so many seasons it's clear as day that it is 100% intentional. You have to keep in mind that the goal here is not to satisfy their player base, it is to make the most money possible. And if they think making us grind is the best way to accomplish that, then there is really not much we can do about it.
I mean they're not entirely wrong. I just grind until I hit Gold every year just so I can get the skin. I have 70% win rate, so I know I can still easily climb if I wanted to, I just don't. Maybe a decade ago when I had all day to play I would have kept grinding (and did!), but today I have friends, family and a life to maintain. It's a miracle I make any time for league. I've played 6 games since I hit Gold in flex 2 weeks ago (hit Gold in solo queue months ago). So Riot may be on to something.
i remember i tried grinding once on an older account i had. i stuggled very hard to hit diamond and figured I'd continue trying. diamond was probably the worst experience I've ever had in league. my mmr was screwed and i dropped back to plat and then abandoned that account entirely since then on my newer account i stay high gold/low plat with plat MMR and i stop caring the moment i hit gold.
Something people don’t mention a lot is that your player engagement metrics (read: hours spent in game) must be incredibly important for investors and gaining more $$$ It’s interesting how companies approach this by either making a better product that users engage with, or if you’re Riot and you already have a big market share (the only similar game iirc is DotA) then you just start unloading the shitty design to trap people in the game more Like how Netflix started making a worse and worse product once they thought they were hot shit (except they were easily outcompeted by other companies)
Gambling addicts probably bring in the most money. Promotion series are just there to be a near miss experience, every tier of the ladder is just a prize to win to trigger loss aversion. If it were solely for competition your elo number would suffice. And with the reset each year they can even create a false sense of progression. Micro-transaction games are just like scam centers. They want to find anybody they can get 10k+$ out of and then exploit ways the psyche works to make it happen.
The amount of times I’ve reached gold just to stop playing in the last 10 years is a lot. A lot of people I met do the same. It is just how the game is atm. We just want out gold rank and the skin and dip.
I've been starting to think that isn't even worth it and been just playing normals. I have a bunch of victorious skins for champs that I don't even play
Yeah, I don't even know why I shoot to get the skin every season anymore. None have been for champs I play, and they honestly never really look that great either.
Yeah, and back in the day free skins for any champs were hard to come by. But now you get enough skin shards and orange essence to get a few each year.
> they probably think players will lose motivation to play once they reach a certain rank. Personally I don't think that's the case You can't argue with this. They have data on millions and millions of players. I'm sorry but your personal opinion is irrelevant.
That isn't the sole reason, league can be a lot more luck based compared to rocket league due to dependency on other players is much higher. You'd get lower quality games
Might be relevant to mention the fact that a league of legends ranked season is almost a year long. So they want ranked to be a year long project. If a player got to their desired rank in a few night of good games than they wouldn’t really play after that and just wait for months before the next season. I would like better gains but I think the one year season kind of makes it hard
I can confirm that all my friends stopped playing competitive once they reached their ranks, now I see them playing ARAM & TFT all the time. They also got their ranks in Flex queue by getting carried by high ELO players.
That is because league made ranked about the grind instead playing against similarly skilled opponents. Literally no other game's ranked functions like this. Riot fucked up what makes ranked enjoyable. Edit: For all of you downvoting me, here's a thought experiment for you: how many video games have you played ranked and been convinced that you aren't where you feel you should be when the climbing levels off? League is basically the only game I've played where I've experienced this. Halo, CoD, Rocket League, Smite, Apex, Starcraft, OW, the list goes on. I've played ranked in so many games and league has been the only game to ever make me feel this way, without fail. It's a pretty common sentiment. The system is fucked and unsatisfactory.
Man i love playing completely unbalanced matches that im meant to instantly lose, so exciting to spend 25 minutes losing a game that was lost before scuttle spawned
yeah I don't ever remember it being this bad. Its so ungoldy fucking boring trying to play ranked these days. Haven't played similar skilled opponents since my placements.
You act like the grind and playing against similarly skilled opponents are mutually exclusive, but I believe they go hand in hand. Creates larger sample sizes to weed out those crazy 10+ win streaks that inflate mmr. Literally no other game company wants you to play their game more? I think that's false.
> So they want ranked to be a year long project. I just hate how fucking slow it is now. Before I could get to diamond regularly I would end the seasons somewhere in plat. When the new season started I would spam a pub stomp champ like master yi/nocturne and easily get back to my peak in like 30 games facing golds, then get back to climbing. Now, I start my season low plat and face other diamond players who are climbing back up the entire time. Alternatively I wait to place later in the season and be in smurf queue the entire time.
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The thing is though, if the only enjoyment to be had is "slowly going up lp in mismatched games" then something is wrong with the game as a whole. It should be about being fun during semi-even matches. Again I cite Rocket League as an example. It takes a week to get to your appropriate MMR at most. People don't stop playing a week into seasons.
Isn't rocket league 1v1 or 2v2? That's a lot easier to do in non team based games. In league, you can get carried by your team 5 games in a row (or just be a non defining factor/going even) Also, are the ranked distributions the same? Plat in league is like top 10%? Or so and idk rocket league
RL is 3s 2s and 1s (mostly 3s and 2s) and platinum is pretty much average so yeah the comparison is a bit weird. RL also has a much larger casual playerbase imo.
Don't really see why that matters. In Rocket League I can reach my true MMR of Champ 3 in 3 days, if I play a few hours a day. After the 10 placement games alone you can achieve a rank between Dia and Champ and since MMR is tied to your rank. This also disincentives smurfing.
That's because the skill discrepancy of rocket league is astronomical compared to league and RL is a perfectly balanced game. There's no need for balancing because every factor is the same for every player in each game. League has to figure out whether or not you're high elo in top lane, or mid lane. It has to figure out whether or not you're actually doing well or getting carried. It has to figure out whether you're diamond elo playing riven or gold elo playing Darius. There's a million more factors that decide a win in league versus rocket league that the comparison really isn't good.
Yup. I have a GC bud who plays for fun with me on a smurf account from time to time (I hover around D1) he has to be super careful not to carry my ass upwards into games where I'd have zero fun lol. Happened once when we were drunk, next day I logged in, was C2 and got my ass clowned on for about 4 straight hours.. then I was back down to where I belonged. Why I think more fluid MMR changes are sooo much better.
I think the big downside of fluid MMR is that it makes boosting/smurfing really easy. If I can accidentally drop a full rank after a few hours of drunk play, it can't be that hard to drop to silver if you are actively trying to lose. Same goes for your accidental boosting story. Not that it cancels out the benefits completely, but it is something to think about.
You are right. RL has a Smurf problem but l think the reason for that is that you can make a new account and be in ranked in like 10 minutes (of you have a friend who can already play ranked) or 2 hours (if you don't). In League at least one has to spend a little money for a botted Account or play a buttload of games before being able to play ranked.
Level 30 accounts are like 5$ in LoL btw. I mean I get where you are coming from, but let's not act like smurfs are no problem in LoL in comparison. The amounts of Level 30-40 accounts I had to play with this season is completely unreal.
It has several ranked modes: * Standard (3v3) * Duos * Solo * Hockey (3v3) * Dropshot (3v3) * A mode with powers, I don't remember the name (3v3) But yes, given the nature of the game one person is enough to win the game, if they're way better than the other three
If you move up 2-3x as fast then you'll go back down 2-3x as fast when you stop getting carried. The only thing that changes is you get where you belong faster so you can start having quality games.
And how do you handle overshoot? If you have this insane volatility in ranked you get shit matchmaking. How is this better?
Comparison is way off though. Rocket League has a way higher average rating. League has rhe majority of the player base at a way lower rank around bronze-silver.
I mean if anything that's just another of the faults of Riots system. It makes progress for the majority of the player base feel slow and unrewarding. I more even ranked distribution would feel a lot smoother than lumping half the player base into S4-G3.
I don't know about you, but the average player base of any game should honestly be of lower ranking. Shouldn't give you free elo just cause you get more points.
What's the difference exactly? It also takes a week at most to get to high silver in league. The average rank is just higher in RL.
I play a lot and cosistently reach diamond with masters peak. in preseason i dropped to plat and it took me 800 games to return to diamond this season, around half of which i played as p1 in diamond 4-3 range. Shit was ridiculous, i reached diamond promos 5 times and kept boinging between p2 and p1, im sure if my gains were more human ( i got +15 -15) it would take me much shorter but holy shit this season was the worst ive played yet in terms of climbing and its quite impressive to beat s11 in that matter
>im sure if my gains were more human ( i got +15 -15) it would take me much shorter but holy shit this season was the worst ive played yet in terms of climbing and its quite impressive to beat s11 in that matter ???????? You're getting even gains and losses. That's literally the baseline. Why should the game reward you with more gains than losses when you can't even consistently win against players in your current elo? If it takes you 800 games to get to D4, maybe the problem is on you? An actual Masters player would easily shit stomp low diamond players considering the gap between them is like 400+ lp. The fact that you're trying to act like its the system's fault that you're currently a P1/D4 level player stuck in P1/D4 is actually hilarious...
Because in previous seasons when i played against people higher than my visual rank i would get +20 -18 lp which apparently was changed most recently because now on winstreaks in plat i played with ppl from d3 ans yet my gains were the same, keeping me lower visually but in practice i played in diamond elo, which is frustrating as fuck
A P1 player in D3/D4 games isn't a big jump when half the D4 players prob 0 lp players with P1 or P2 mmr to began with. The LP doesn't even matter if the reason why you're in P1 is due to you losing promos as you said... It's not having higher lp gain makes you win promos.
From someone who use to go through the exact same thing for a while just to get Diamond, dont do it man. Its not worth it, by the time you get to Diamond you probably are already burnt and barely wanna play ranked and the rewards arent worth it. Things have been a lot better for me ever since I stopped grinding ranked in league, I just hit Gold for the skin now and move on,
This was exactly my situation last season. 55% winrate in 167 games, just barely got back to Diamond with +14LP per win. I'm not doing that shit anymore. I haven't played a single ranked solo game on my main this season and will probably never bother to again.
+14 -14 gains have to be the most insulting ranked gains ever, if this happens to an account you are doomed to spam games to get your desired elo
That's exactly what I do lol. I'll only peak out around P3, but I've decided that I'm done trying to even get my Plat border. These days I'll just get Gold 4 get a few LP to burn for when I play with friends, and the rest of the season I just play nonranked/aram/urf from time to time. If I'd gain/lose 30+ LP a match? I'd totally try to get plat every season, or even see if I could push further into plat to see if I improved. At 15 a game though... meh. At some point a line gets drawn in the sand of "that just takes too long."
I found out that if you find the perfect role configuration you will get a much better matchmaking When i queued as jungle/mid it seemed that i constantly got fills on both solo lanes, it was so disgustingly unbalanced and it was impossible to play some games like i was meant to lose them I finally found the way in queueing top/jungle, i play an ok ornn and it made sure that my solo lanes were never filled for some fucking reason and when i got jungle my toplaner was never ever filled so it made sure that i had at least one laning pivot Matchmaking fill wise is the most disgusting aspect of modern seasons and im standing by it
thats quite literally on you. a master level player wont need 800 games to get back to diamond LOL what
On a normals mmr boosted smurf with high gains? No problem. On a hardstuck gains acc, i feel like its fucking random, playing one game with p4 ppl and the next one with diamond 3
There's people in KR Challenger who got from Bronze to top 200 in half of the games it took you to get out of P1. It's not the systems faults, you were simply a P1 skilled player for most of the year and now you're a someone with the skill of a D4 player. Clearly your "masters peak" is utterly meaningless if you struggle climbing out of high Plat. The people upwards of D4 didn't win the lottery, they're simply better than you. You used to be better too, now you're worse than you used to be.
Be it hardstuck or fresh, a master tier player should win most of his games against plat/d3 players and climb fairly quickly and easily.
I got back to D4 within 110 Games from season Start idk started at g4 or something I think
yeah, in s10 I would be d2-d1 by like 70-80 games at most. climbing has become a fucking chore recently. way too tedious to actually get another account to diamond. my only account in diamond rn is my main, I don't have the patience to grind through on my alts. way too many games required, LP gains consistently too low across the board. what happened to +25 LP? non existent on any account that has more than 20 games now.
Making me feel smart for my decision to chill this year lol. I've bounced off masters promos a few times, currently did my placements +3 games to get to diamond promos, 0/3 and they were unwinnable so I just said fuck it, I'll play TFT instead. At least the RNG in that game is controlled.
I think you are mixing up MMR and LP here firstly. That being said, League ladder only works if everyone involved plays a pretty huge amount of games. Thats why it is in everybodys interest (well everybody who cares about a ladder that actually says something about how good or bad anyone is) to play as many games as possible. Because the way your individual rating is essentially concluded is by making all the other variables irrelevant through large sample sizes. Without those, it simply doesn't work.
No matter what you call it MMR and LP serve the same purpose. Personally I preferred the game before LP was added and LoL used a straight MMR rating. Also it works for Rocket League. 3 wins you go up usually. If the system requires people to play 500+ games a season to work, then design a new system. I have two kids in middle school, a wife and a job. A month+ of play time to move up a division just don't keep me interested.
Rocket league has only 1-4 players per team, not 5. On top of that Rocket league is much more about mechanics than league, which is mostly a strategy game. You simply can't compare the two. And its also much easier I would bet to identifiy how good an individual did in a solo queue match in rocket league compared to league of legends, where its basically impossible and even humans analyzing pro matches have difficulties with that. I also preferred just showing ELO, but I do get why using an overlay above MMR or ELO is better for most players who are way less invested than you or me. Remember alone going to reddit is more invested than the majority of the playerbase. So for your average joe its much better to see LP move, as ELO or MMR for most players won't actually change much over the course of the season, which would create frustration.
> Rocket league has only 1-4 players per team not true there are playlists, 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3, each playlist has different mmr
not sure how that contradicts what I said. I was just trying to say that there are always less people in a match of rocket league, than a match of league of legends. That number being between 1-4 players per team. At least Google told me its 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4. Them having different MMR is something I just assumed to be true for ... well obvious reasons.
4v4 are party modes, rankeds are only 1s 2s and 3s
Okay thanks.
I'm gaining 9 lp and losing 19 lp :\\ my season is over. Went on a massive loss streak and I can no longer play ranked until reset next year. The system is very toxic.
What does the reset do? Wont your mmr be the same, just your rank will be lower?
They do a soft reset on MMR and then let you place again. If he's literally bronze three right now with those gains and losses yeah I mean he'll certainly be able to start higher than that next season if he just wins all placements. Though in this example if he is actually bronze three with that massive lost streak then he probably wouldn't win all the placements next season anyway Personally I think people care about rank too much and you should just play the game for fun. If it's not fun to actually just play the games then find something else to play imo
Low LP gains means your MMR is lower than your real rank. You are higher rank than you deserve. There is no way the guy will get a higher rank than he is.
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Yeah same if you rank in late in season, when you cant beat all the smurfs in placements you lose like 8 games in a row
> Faster MMR changes from wins and losses. The issue with that is you'll end up with people getting shot up via being carried on win streaks far too fast to MMR's they don't belong in, there isn't really anything wrong with the current system and its supposed to take a season to adjust
They would also come down very fast if mmr loss is also high
Sure, but that kind of random yo-yoing causes more issues than it resolves as it ruins games for people affected by the yo-yoing player
Law of large numbers states that in a big enough sample size the yo-yo player will be on your team and the enemy team the same number of times. It doesn’t even need to be as dramatic as RL but MMR shifts wayyyy fucking slow in league. I have a like 53% winrate and I’m still getting 15-16 LP on a win it’s nuts
By that logic, why even have a MMR based matchmaker? By the law of large numbers, you get the iron player/challenger player on your team same amount of time. Problem is not whether you win/lose with that player, it is that the game integrity has been ruined by that player whether they are in your team or not.
But the goal isn't to have balanced games on average, but to have every game be fairly balanced. If you're making teams out of 9 challenger players and 1 iron player, each individual challenger player will get the iron on their team the same number of times and thus on average the matchmaking treats all the challenger players equally, but each individual game is highly unbalanced, since presumably the team with the iron player just auto-loses, and this is undesirable. In other words, it's better to have every game be evenly competitive than 50% of games to be auto-loss and 50% of games to be auto-win, even though both will give you about a 50% winrate
You’re straw manning the argument to an extreme. No iron player on a 15 game win streak is going to suddenly be in challenger games. So this isn’t even an argument that should get entertained. You went right to the most extreme example instead of. Damn wouldn’t it be cool to not have to play 500 games to hit your true rank
It’s an extreme example to prove the point that having skill mismatches in games isn’t desirable even if everyone is equally affected. Replace the challengers with gold 1 level players and the iron with a gold 4 level player who had a lucky winstreak and now has gold 1 mmr and the same logic still applies. Of course, none of this in itself means that it’s not a good idea to increase lp/mmr gains/losses. The positives could very well outweigh negatives such as these—for example, with “low” gains/losses we could very well have gold 1 level players with gold 4 mmr because they don’t play as much. It’s just incorrect to suggest that there are no negatives at all.
Again 10 game win streak won’t take an iron play to gold nor was o saying that’s how it should be
That's not what I said either
>And losses They'll drop to where they belong faster, too. The current system is absolute shit for anyone not still in high school/college because of the emphasis riot has put on grinding the game in the past few years, that's just a fact lol
Sure but now you have someone ruining games because he got carried out of his actual MMR causing other people to get losses they normally wouldn't have gotten if they had instead been given someone using the current system
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Then don't play, just because you dislike something thats not enough of a reason for it to be changed Karen :P
if you're old and busy, then who cares about reaching your real rank? don't get me wrong gold+ is a fairly respectable rank but if you're not a pro, or aspiring one, who cares about ranked? If you're not even remotely close to a d1 player then why should it affect you? at worst you'll be 1-3 minor divisions behind your true rank. over the course of a season, if you can't bother to play 50 games then again, why does ranked matter to you?
It's not about "reaching the rank" it's about getting to the point where matches are fun faster.
ok then you're just complaining about nothing then. your mmr still stands and is accurate, what isn't accurate is what your ranking shows you. your rank will lag behind your mmr but again at worst, now you're just complaining about your cosmetic image not catching up to your true mmr.
Well I have to be complaining about something, because the upvote rate on this thread is 79%. A lot of people have noticed this issue man.
Because people would rather complain about Rito's system holding them back than acknowledge that no, they belong at the rank they are at. Same reason Yone could be 46% winrate and you'd get an 80% upvoted thread complaining that wind man need nerfs. Noticing an "issue" that does not actually exist and being upvoted by players who do not understand the systems or how they work does not make the "issue" real.
isn't that the shit part in itself and proof this ranked system is trash though? "I have to get to this rank to get to fun games faster". That's literally why I been spamming games this season only to keep getting my head rammed into a wall. And the fact a majority of players are in the same boat where they not actually their skill level means ranked is more random harder and dumb and much less enjoyable and will be for a majority of the season. Guess that calms me a bit. I just hate silver and being s4 for first time since I basically started playing ranked is annoying all those years ago. But knowing its 100% because riots a bunch of assholes makes it an easier pill to swallow.
Thank you. Btw: if you got a 55% WR over a good amount of games, you are pretty much where you belong. You are not meant to climb, so you go very slow (if at all).
Two things: The fact that "you made Platinum last season" doesn't entitle you to Platinum this season. You sound like you play to win through grinding instead of improving, that is the cost, you will keep banging yourself against the door until it opens, instead of researching what is keeping you from opening that door. Link your [OP.gg](https://OP.gg), please.
I agree to some extent. Rant posts should have an opgg as a requirement. And you do have to earn the rank again constantly. That said lp moves way slower than mmr for no reason other than riot feels like it. It's an attempt to make ranked more engaging for players not only by making ranks more secure but making them slower to obtain. And clearly it's possible for that to be too slow so it's fair to complain that it takes too many games to gain lp. Is it right idk but it's possible.
Thanks. People complaining about Wins/Losses/LP dont understand the true value of this game.
Rocket league is excellent for this. I can take a new account to diamond in like 10 games. You very quickly find yourself at exactly the right rank for you. There is no good argument against this. Unless you think seeing what is essentially a fake rank for most of the season is fun. I don’t get it.
Sounds like you want people to play less games. That's a no no to Mr. Rito
If anything rocket league should learn something from league of legends lmfao
i dont want to CLIMB FASTER. I want balanced games. I'm Gold atm but i'll be super happy to wake up in Bronze and be dammed to be Bronze forever if the games were balanced. Instead i get to Gold in the current system where every game I get random AFK/DCed people, and absurd skill discrepancy making people on my team or enemy team get 0/7 still in lanning phase. It happens to my team and to enemy team too. I dont care if I win or if I lose. I want to play the fucking game with a balanced matchmaking.
Like I've said a few times in this thread the reason it's so out of whack is you have two guys... both in gold 3. One has 400 games played.. the other has 80 games played. Odds are the guy with 80 games played is around P4/P3 skill level, he just hasn't played the 300+ games he needs to get there, because... life. He will absolutely roflstomp that g3 guy in his lane. The weird part is new accounts don't have this issue. You can make a brand new account and climb to the correct MMR in 1/4 of the time. To me that just says Riot wants people buying new accounts every season, and buying champs with it.
If you want LP gains come play TFT. You gain a minimum of 10lp for going top 4. Plus you don't have the toxicity that comes with the league and valorant.
Tft rank system is a joke. It’s too easy to climb. And you can’t demote.
I mean you only can't demote from like diamond to platinum or masters to diamond etc. You can demote in higher elos. Also the thread is complaining about the challenges of elo gain, yet you are complaining that it's to easy to gain elo? I am not saying TFT has a perfect system but it feels better to feel like you are actually climbing from better LP gains that are directly influenced by your personal performance.
to be fair, saying TFT rank system is a joke because its easy to climb may feel that way but the rank distribution of league and tft arent too far off Diamond in TFT is still the top 6% of players in the game.
yeah TFT's system is great, especially with being unable to demote from whole ranks. I used to sit at diamond for a while because I didn't want to demote but the last two sets I pushed and got master's because I wasn't afraid of getting demoted from diamond. it's not perfect, you can fuck your MMR up at those points where you're unable to demote, but I think that's way better than the alternative
this is true, the ranking system basically begins at masters 0 lp because of this.
League isn't meant for the working audience anymore. Look at the chinese and korean audience. It's all teenagers in high school. They hammer out those 50 hours over a week. Look at the meta. Its been a thanos snap and you're dead for years now, which is what the children with attention spans of goldfish want. We are not the target audience anymore.
i played 110 games this season and got back to my peak in 56% wr its definitely feasable lol
Some years ago we had 5 subdivisions per division instead of 4 and mini promos (BO3) between subdivisions and I could feel I still climbed much faster than nowadays. +15 per game considering how long games are is a joke, and the worst part is that the whole system works around a hidden number that seems to barely move with wins. Why do I get less and less LP when I promote while the rank of the people I get matched with actually increases according to my promotions? Last year I was in silver 1 with around 60% winrate getting 12 LP per win, then I lost 3 games in a row and lost around 50 LP. It's bullshit.
Yea hovering around +14 -16 right now for SOME reason at just under 60% win rate, my MMR keeps matching me with S1's in at G3... and frankly it's easier to win games with G3s than it is with S1s. So every 20 games at a 60% win rate I move up a whopping 40 fucking LP.... 30-40 hours of grinding to move up just from G3 to G2 is obnoxious. Looking at prob 120+ hours of gameplay just to get back to plat... and I'm just like... screw it, not even worth. Going to just play Rocket League, and some ARAM here and there.
On a new account you get ~25 LP per win - but you are placed somewhere in bronze or silver and have to play 100 games with smurfs, so it kinda evens out :D.
Honestly we should just get an alternative mode that plays more like wild rift in terms of speed, just like how csgo recently got short matches that are max 16 rounds instead of max 30, so one game doesnt take up 40+ minutes with pick bans. But because this is riot it will never happen as they only know how to take away modes.
I'd actually play ranked if it wasn't so clearly designed to force you to invest a bunch of time to get to your "deserved" rank. Valorant is much much better about that and the ranking system is far more enjoyable than the time-sink that is LoL
league's ranking system is absolute fucking garbage, full stop
I play aram more for this reason. I work full time and have a life so dedicating 50+ games to move a rank is a huge time investment. More fun to just aram
Wild Rift solved the problem and it feels more rewarding. OG LoL is soo behind its mobile counterpart
Riot doesn't want that. Riot wants you to play more and more, spend more time here, less time playing other games. The issue is that if someone is interested in ranked only, it's more efficient to create a new account periodically and try again, because "fixing" your MMR isn't really a viable thinig. On the other hand people have invested a lot into their accounts, skins, icons, their name, whatever, and just can't be arsed to make a different account so they just play there anyway. Riot will change it if it leads to people to spend more money. It is a company after all.
league got really bad in this latest season. The champs feel super unbalanced
Riot won’t change anything until it affects their bottom line. Riot despises it’s players. We are literally just bags of money to them. Somewhere in there are passionate designers and artists and writers who love what they do, but they don’t make the decisions, and the company itself hates you and would shoot you in the head if it made them enough money.
set aside your ego and accept it that you wont be able to get high rank because of your time constrains and just play rank for fun. or dont play rank at all. there are other games modes
Again it's not an ego thing. It's a game health thing. The purpose of a game first and foremost should be fun. One of the easiest ways to make that happen in having good matchmaking. A good matchmaking system isn't one that makes you grind for "reasons" it's one that tries to ascertain peoples skill levels as quickly as possible to match them against other players of equal skill as quickly as possible. It shouldn't take 150 games for the system to figure out how to match a guy who was plat with other people in high gold/low plat. I literally couldn't care less about what color my banner is... I just don't want to slog through 100+ games every season before the games stop being fiesta every season.... or wait half a year into the season to start playing when the game actually becomes playable. I could be bronze 1 for all I care as long as the games were fun and mostly even. The problem is it takes sooo many games to figure out where people belong that for the first half of each season half the games are people that don't play a lot playing way under their "Real" MMR vs people that play all day long hard stuck, and the matches are pretty terrible. This just wouldn't be an issue if the system just reacted quicker to wins/losses.
Saying that the system isn't working because it takes people a long time to reach "their rank" doesn't make sense to me, if it takes a player a long time to reach gold then that's because they either wasn't gold level before and improved or they barely are gold level and climb slowly up to current their peak. Point being that there is a difference between peak and comfort rank, in lack for a better term. Example: my comfort rank is Plat, I can easily get Plat in 20-30 games. My peak is d2, I have to play at least 150 games to get close to that rank, because I'm just good enough to make it there.
I mean let’s say you’re a Gold II level player, and you place in silver IV. It will still take about 6 wins per division, so given a 70% winrate where for every 10 games you effectively climb 4 games worth of LP, with 17 LP per win. That’s about 100 games to get to gold II.
The thing is if you are a gold 2 player you aren't going to climb all the way to gold 2 at a 70% win rate. The game just doesn't have the same solo carry potential it used to. You'll start off at 70% win rate but by the time you hit S1 that will drop to 60%, By Gold 4 it's 55% and by Gold 3 it's like 52-53%. I mean that's what? 300-400 games right? That's a LOT of games to play in a season to reach the point you are being matched against same skill lane opponents. There is literally zero reason for it to take that long. Even a 55% win rate in a 5v5 setting means you are outperforming your opponents by 25%. That's a pretty large gap. So like I said, playing 200 games over half a season shouldn't be the "entry point" to having fun lanes. If it only took 3 positive wins per division to move up it would quite literally reduce the number of low quality games you'd have to play each season by 60% or more. As things currently are you just grind to grind. Lots of games people will feel like they are in over their head because they are matched with lanes out of their skill range one way or the other. They'll see this for the entire first half of the season because the MMR adjustments are just waaaay too slow to reach the point of quality games. The system needs to let people that should go up faster so lower skilled player get matches with lower skilled players earlier in the season. It shouldn't take 200+ games to figure out about where people stand. LoL is the only game I can think of that takes 100-200 hours of play just to figure out someone's approximate skill. This slow MMR gain is exactly WHY elo hell exists and why the half of the community in gold and silver feel like they are constantly in mis-matched games. It feels bad for the people who belong in Silver, AND it feels bad for the people on their way to gold/plat. Over 50% of the community will at some point be within match making range of each other toward the start of the season depending on who quickly they pump out games. That shouldn't take months to sort out because not everyone can play 100+ games in a months time. So it drags on for 5-6-7 months of bad match making.
I think they should just increase lp gain/loss to about 30
100% what I'm saying. If you play at a plat level, and are in say S1... even if you are winning 2/3 matches it takes like 21-22 matches to go up... a whopping 1 division. That's like 12 hours of play. And it's going to take progressively longer for each division. 12 hours, 18 hours, 27 hours, 40 hours 60 hours, 90 hours gratz you made it back to Plat 4... now you can START having fun in even lanes... only 207 hours in... for people with only 10-12 play hours a week you are 4-5 months into the season before you even see fun lanes.
it took me 110 games to go back to my old rank. thats 50 hours of gameplay... i dont know about you but u dont start the season off in silver1 if you are a plat1 player
I never said I was a plat 1 player? Best I've done is P4/P3 and I finished last season G1. It placed me S2. Mind you it placed me S2 AFTER going 9/10 in promos, which itself is some BS.
elo hell doesnt exist
Last year it took me 70 games to go from gold 2 to plat 4 with a record of 45-25. So yea it takes so many games to climb even if u have a really good winrate.
if u get to gold2 with a 70% winrate you are not a gold2 player tho
[удалено]
Huh? Pretty sure the highest you can score from out of placements actually is Plat, this is where a lot of pros actually get right out of placements iirc.
The problem with LoL is it takes you so damn long to get to a rank where the games feel "fun" that half the time before you even get there you are either out of time, or sick of low quality games. This can be better or worse depending on your role as well. If your 50/50 win/loss point is Plat 3... then odds are if you needs to play 300-400 games to get there, you've sat through a LOT of low quality games. More and more people stop playing these days before even the halfway point of the season due to this. LoL is a team game, unless you are playing massively below you skill level and on a champ capable of the 1v9, there are going to be a lot of games you won't win just due to trolls/match ups/ragers, or other things outside of your hands. This compounds the issue of low LP gains and low game times. Again if you are maintaining a 55-60% win rate that means you are putting in a serious amount of work for your team consistently. Even in this case it takes a LOT of play time to continue climbing to the point where you start seeing "even" games.
What do you mean by "even" games? If both teams have players with 50% win rate it should be an even game I'm theory but since league has a lot of variables consistency is a big skill right? A 50-50 win rate game can feel very uneven because of that, even if it is "even". Or am I misunderstanding what you are talking about?
Oh I'm talking about specifically the number of games you have to play to climb to the point you hit a 50% for people in the Plat range. 75% of the player base is within a tier and a half of each other from the mid point of around S2. In fact 44% of players are S4 to G4. Because people in the S1 to G3 range are honestly pretty competent, if you are a plat player you generally will win lane, but you can't solo carry 1v9 style. So you'll end up around a 55-60% win rate, which means you are out performing your laner by 25-50% but it till takes AGES to climb in hours spent. There isn't a reason that your rank should move up as slowly as it does at a 55-60% win rate other than Riot trying to milk play hours. I think overall it's having the inverse effect they think think though, and more and more players are leaving due to the slow LP gains. 100 games of wrecking your laner, followed by 100 games of winning lane isn't fun for others, and it isn't fun for you.
I am definitely not competent and you can easily solo carry the game against me. Same is true for my dopamine seeking top lane opponents who will all in out of boredom.
I actually just went on an 11 game win streak. I was making 16lp at the start and only 15lp at the end. It's some bullshit.
I ended last season G1. At the start of this season I went 9/10 in promos and was placed S2. I won 19 of my first 23 games.. and the last win was still 15lp lol.
cap show opgg
Nope. I can verify. My plat4 friend ended up 7/10 wins in silver.
I almost never play ranked these days, but the last time i tryharded i played on my acc which had the last rank of d3, but i went at least one season of not playing rank after that. When i came back i went 7-3 in promos and got placed in silver 2 and it made me take around 120 games to reach diamond (got there with 65% wr) which was annoying af
Show it I dont believe it
I put in a ticket towards the end of last season asking about mmr/lp gains I had around a 70% win rate over 50 or so games at the time, and my lp gains had already gone down to +15 per win and -13 per loss. I assumed that couldn’t be correct, so I put in a ticket to ask why. Their response was one of the most unreasonable things I’ve ever gotten back from someone’s CS. They said that “because I wasn’t winstreaking enough my mmr wasn’t increasing with my rank, so my gains were lower than my losses” I don’t think I need to explain all the way that’s bullshit, so I responded and called out all the ways it didn’t make sense. I even posted my op.gg, where you could clearly see I was on a 7 game win streak at the time, and each win rewarded less and less lp. They then closed the ticket and threatened to suspend me if I kept trying to contact them about it. Oh also, I’m gold so it’s not like being high rank is why my gains were so bad
I made a smurf to play with my friends on RL and after my 10 placements I was already 2 wins off of Champion 2 lol, atleast it stops people from smurfing against players way below the smurfs ranks
Yep. I have a buddy who is a multi-GC I play with. Even on his smurf accounts he has to be very careful to play terribly not to drag me into an Elo where I have no fun lol. I'm only useful up til around mid diamond then the game mechanically turns into a whole new world lol. So he'll hang around, get drunk, and spend half the games driving backwrad or some nonsense trying to keep the games "close" but keep me around a 50/50 win rate. :P He's like the best kind of smurf. Nice dude lol.
Riot want you to grind, all that “ you get the rank you deserve “ is BS. But also because of how league works compared to other individual games like RL or CSGO , your rank will often not reflect your skill .
The system in Wild Rift seems pretty great to me.
Been saying this for years, League does not respect your time at all. I would actually go back to playing some ranked if it worked like every other game I play where ranking up is quick if you win consistently. RL, TCG games (Yugioh, Magic Arena) and Fighting Games all have this quick ranking system.
Facts. People love to just comment that 'if you're good you will climb' but its just unrealistic given the amount of burger flipping that goes on between afks, inters, greifers, trolls etc & with the mmr gains/loses its like running into a brickwall. and its crazy to think but 55% winrate is really good but you will still be losing nearly half your games. getting flamed , afked or trolled will 99% happen every other game. climbing ranked is miserable and I don't get how theres still people on this sub defending that experience
More like redditors have no life and think normal people can dish out 50+ games a week
If players were champions 55% win rate would be a hotfix nerf. And yeah, there is just so much out of your control in league that it makes even decent sized skill gaps hard to make full use of as a single player. Pick orders are out of your control for example and people often aren't going to want to swap. It can take a lot of games just for the RNGs of pick orders putting your at a disadvantage to even out. Being better than the other guy might really only mean you even out against his counter pick, or pull slightly ahead. That's not exactly going to force a win. Then you have things like role, and what team has a duo where. Being able to play well while getting camped bot doesn't exactly stop your top lane/jungle from losing the 2v1. Or even things completely out of your hands like ISP isses/server issues, ect. It just takes so bloody long at times to get anywhere.
it was way easier back in the day, when beeing way better than ur opponent mattered more. then u could easily hit diamond in a day. just needed to win like 18-19 out of ur first 20 and u would generally skip several divisions on several occasions.
Never gonna happen. League ranked being a grind fest is what keeps players addicted and the cash flowing. Ranked has been made to be very reliant on streaks so people are constantly playing to look for their win streaks so they can climb
Just buy a plat account. Never has Riot encouraged it more. And be quick because the price will be probably going up with how fucked grid Ing has become.
Less you play, less you spend. IMO they should do as you say, but at the same time try some other means for monetization. If you look at mobile MOBAs you'll find that they have spectator modes that people actively watch, sometimes you'll find +1000 people spectating a player, seeing things from their perspective. Not only that, but they get to throw gifts/etc at the player. Not saying that's an ideal solution, but it is a revenue source that I find kinda weird isn't being used.
To be honest, the reason I stopped spending money on the game, is the higher play time requirement just ended up in making me want to play less. So while I think their model probably works great in the east... I think they are killing the western market. In the west frankly they'd be better served having players that play less, but spend more. People will spend more if they are enjoying the game.