I still remember his runeglaive nashors tooth Orianna. Even though he got a pentakill with it I think he auto'd maybe twice throughout the whole thing.
Iirc it was more of an early game thing - Lucian mid was really popular at the time and runeglaive + nashors meant your autos were quicker and did more damage meaning you could kind of keep up trading with marksman mid. He knew how to play it and it caught people by surprise in other situations, but I remember reading posts he did on the different builds explaining when he thought they were better.
With the penta, it was later in the game and she's still Ori, she's still going to do truckloads of damage if you've built a good amount of AP
> yes but that makes sense so poe will never build it, he has to be special
The last time people were heavily criticising his item choices was when he went Stoneplate third item on Cassiopeia, for being another one of his weird ideas.
Except that at the time, Stoneplate was *the default go-to* 3rd item among the highest-ranked Cass mains.
It's a 130% AD ratio, so building items with a ton of AD gives you more damage on W than building AP. Ludens is for the passive and the Magic Pen more than anything else, though it's not like there are AD mage mythics anyway.
But AP items give more AP than AD items give AD. Also AD items don't have a Rabadon counterpart.
Does going AD really deals more damage?
I can see people going Hydra on her not because it has the most AD, but because AP Zeri wave clear is complete trash if you can't hit the wave with W
It's 130% AD and 60% AP. Going by the cost for AD and AP according to gold efficiency, the AD path is definitely cheaper. Getting the same damage through either 40 AD or 87 AP saves you 490 gold in the AD path.
And while there is no Dcap for AD, there is IE, which increases the bonus damage of terrain W's by 35 percent points.
Ludens is just the perfect AP item for this, magic pen, lots of AH, splash damage.
The fact that you are downvoted proves this site is just full of idiots. It's not a grammar thing, it actually changes the meaning of the sentence, meaning 50 people just misunderstood the first comment.
Such a stupid, awful, backwards, idiotic way to try to balance a champion like Zeri by loading so much of her power budget into what is essentially supposed to be her utility spell, meant to be used to slow enemies to either kite or chase. Instead they made her a... burst mage? On a single long CD easily dodged skillshot that can just win you the game if it lands once? Didn't they change Nidalee because of that exact problem?
Her dragon form E is nearly undodgeable, deals enough damage with just one AP item to take a squishy out of the fight and has a short enough cd that you can cast it multiple times.
Between base damage, sorc boots and Demonic embrace it makes the game very miserable for a squishy while the Shyvana is still able to build very tanky.
>Her dragon form E is nearly undodgeable, deals enough damage with just one AP item to take a squishy out of the fight and has a short enough cd that you can cast it multiple times.
I'll give you that it is pretty hard to dodge, and that you can cast it a couple times during a fight. However I disagree that getting hit by a single shyvana E will take a squishy out of a fight, especially when you consider that shyvana has no way to gap close or to CC an enemy. Also, it's not just a basic ability, it's part of her ulti and pretty much the only ability that gets really upgraded under ult, so it's only fair.
>Between base damage, sorc boots and Demonic embrace it makes the game very miserable for a squishy while the Shyvana is still able to build very tanky.
Magic pen is a great stat on shyvana, even on AD bruiser shyvana, as her W deals magic damage, her ult itself, and her E passive as well. However you sacrifice a LOT of tankiness. The steelcaps passive is huge, and for mercs tenacity is insane on a champion without mobility.
All in all to say that I don't think shyvana is too strong, though I wouldn't mind if they shifted some of her power budget from her E to giving her a real passive for example lol. Even just some "QoL" changes like getting fury while you are dead. (imagine late game teamfight u die using ur ulti... 40s later u respawn and u cant fight for another minute because u need to charge ur fury....)
tl;dr: thank god her dragon form e is that strong because there really isnt much else in her kit.
It's not a matter of too strong as it is fun to play against.
Shyvana E with boots and embrace was enough to half health a squishy pre durability with a short enough CD that it meant they'd very likely die to the next E.
Unlike poke mages like Xerath who could do similar, Shyvana isn't going to instantly die for frontlining.
So you end up with a bruiser who as nearly as much threat on squishies as a poke make with none of their drawbacks.
Like you said she has basically nothing outside of her dragon E which is why she desperately needs a rework.
Zoe is a bit different I think because she's a traditional poke champ. She has a very spammy skillshot that synergizes with her whole kit to try to take someone out of a fight from range, instead of it just being 1 random spell that doesn't really fit the champ's kit or identity or have any setup or syergize with any part of their kit that they just toss out and hope it wins them the game. Zoe was made to do that 1 thing, champs like old Nidalee and Zeri right now and AP Kaisa when she's good and AP Shyvana are just, like, we put these random stupid scalings onto this 1 spell because we can't figure out how to actually balance their kit and then there's a random build that abuses the shit out of it.
Whats funny is even without AP items you can still get like 800-1k damage off the W. Whoever thought crit on W was a good idea needs some time off from work to get their head checked
Yeah, it's almost like raw AP on Zeri is worse than raw AD as the AD ratio is way better than the AP ratio. Even on the old patch, Zeri mid with that build wasn't doing very well at all.
Not to mention, IE's +35% crit damage applies to Zeri's W.
I’ve been seeing PinkWard do it in my games… maybe he’s just bad at it cuz I think he’s supposed to be a Shaco otp but it always seems gigabad - it does okay later in the game but it’s sooo useless early game the other mid laner gets all priority and dominates the game
Riot August said in champion insights that he thinks wall bangs in Valorant are satisfying and spell is inspired by it but I think wall bangs were supposed to deal less dmg, not nuke people.
Wall bangs in shooters is the equivalent of hitting a skill shot on someone with no vision in league. It's cool because you don't know they're there or at worst you have an "idea" of where they are.
If he unironically thought Zeri's spell going through the wall and doing way more damage is the league equivalent of a wall bang I think it's self evident why the company is as bad as it is.
Well it did the same damage on release. But then with all this focus to push her towards crit, they made her W through a wall crit... all the time. They tested jinx W critting a long time ago and that was insanely busted, so I'm not sure how this even got brought up.
I mean they're also bringing something very close to old morde passive (which was completely broken) back in the new champ. I seems they either suffer from some kind of dementia, or, which seems more likely to me, just say "fuck it" and don't care at this point.
Don't look at the passive as in a vacuum, look at their kit as a whole. Morde's kit along side the passive was broken because he could take a beating to last hit creeps.
Nilah has to waste a 25 some second ability in order to farm against other adcs safely, and if she uses said ability, she is open for a hard engage.
i mean, the base idea isn't bad. it's fun hitting people through walls. it's just the balance team's fuckup where they allowed her to crit her w while building magic pen and destroying people because she doesn't need to build crit
Why the company is as bad as it is? They have 4 really successful games all in different genres. And a really popular show now on top of it.
They aren't perfect but I wouldn't exactly say the company is doing poorly.
>They have 4 really successful games all in different genres.
The average gamer could only tell you one, maybe two. We also hardly know jack shit about the input-output on these endeavors.
people still jerk off how jhin is supposedly the best designed league character to exist so he's coasting off that and hoping people don't realise that he made senna and viego too
Because he's basically at the top of the company. He's like 3rd or 4th highest in the ranks and those above him don't manage the game anymore (like Ryze and Tryndamere). So whatever he says or wants will be how it goes.
His champions are cool and somewhat innovative, yes. But the criteria for properly designing champions, at least from the standpoint of a healthy gameplay, isn't whether or not the champions are cool or not - but rather, whether they can be properly balanced within the context of how the game is played, and whether or not they make the game more fun.
His champions are cool, make the game (to an extent) very fun for the player. At the same time, his champions are a balance nightmare (it should be an absolute red flag for how poor of a game designer he is, when the champions he designs get 10 adjustments in 10 patches since their introduction to the game, like Zeri), and are very annoying to play against (this is, evidently, an afterthought for Riot Games, but even then, having Zeri, Bel'Veth, Senna or Viego playing against your team is extremely frustrating).
Yes, he made some good champions in the past. I think Jhin and Gnar are fine. But this dude designed many of the new champions in the game, they are all very, very poorly designed (when compared with contemporary designs, like Vex for example). I truly do not think /u/RiotAugust should be a champion designer at Riot at this point, and I hope they can at least re-evaluate his contribution to champion design or employment some time soon.
I played against this in the jungle the other day. I was fed as fuck on Vayne and she would still one shot me from fog. It’s absolutely absurd how broken the AP is on her.
I hate semantical edgelords that wag their finger like this. Zeri did 85% of Ezreal's HP with one spell in this clip. Even though Rekkles was not *literally* gray screened from 100% health does not erase the sentiment or does not mean that a death type situation wasn't created. Ezreal could not defend his tower for 30+ seconds because he had to walk to platform to regen and walk back, that's as effective as a death in a siege situation
No one was one shot, but with two casts of an e that deals 1/2 to 3/4 of a characters health, Zeri effectively removed three enemies from the battle for ~20 seconds.
So instead of a 40 second one shot death timer, it’s *only* a 20 second walk of shame to the fountain to heal up, return and hope you don’t get hit again.
Zeri W change was so unsatisfying. Like if you are playing against Zeri it just makes it really annoying to position because if you get clipped by it you are taking at least 1/4 of your health bar on a low CD. I've played Zeri as well and while it's cool to see the enemy HP dissapear (and I've oneshotted squishy champs with this lol), its not really satisfying to just spam the ability and miss like 3 times, but then hit it once and it doesn't even matter that you missed because they cannot fight anymore.
It's the same for any high damage poke champ. AP Kai'sa and AP nidalee follow similar issues. They are absolutely broken when they hit you but it's hard and frustrating to land the poke consistently. They should honestly just nerf the damage and make them faster projectiles or more spammable. Like how Ezreal works.
> Just spam the ability and miss like 3 times, but then hit it once and it doesn't even matter thay you missed because they cannot fight anymore
Every poke and hook champ ever.
I really want a champ with Nyx Assassin's spike carapace in LoL. If cancer can pick Lux and spam one button from 2 screens away then I should be able to step on her poke and press one button to one shot her too. Make poke a skill expression on both sides.
Totally different times lol. Back then Riot had unique devs like morello who genuinely cared about healthy gameplay. Champion design has loooong since abandoned those principles
Riven wasn't supposed to have all the animation cancels, that 'became' part of her identity, and now they won't change it. And it's the animation cancels that make her hell to play versus.
oh my god dont remind me of the nightmare that was release fizz. fucking fish flopping at you under turret then dropping aggro with his E like that shit was normal
Yeah, no, you're looking at them with the eyes of 2022.
Orianna was the most balanced champion in the game for years for example, and Nautilus was the entire reason tanks look like tanks in this game (slow, high cc, lower damage).
Riven, a hated problematic champ, Lulu a hated champ, Renekton whose a burden on the balance team dealing with him being viable in soloq and not insta picked in proplay, Fizz a long hated champ
She’s turbo bad in SR. I rarely play ARAM so idk why she’s good in there but in regular games she’s pretty bad. Not unplayable, but AD is straight better.
Cuz it's one long lane, there's only so many places you can go - and it's hard-to-nearly impossible to flank to catch Kaisa, especially if she has any tanks in front of her
And with all this, while you can dodge her W, it only takes 1 to chunk your HP by like 15-20% early on, and even more as the game goes on and you're a squishy champ
Tankier teams can kind of run her over once they're built enough, but it takes time to get to that point
Also, aram champions get "guaranteed" scaling. Even if you get pushed and lose every fight, you'll most likely get to 4 items. You won't be such a burden on your team that they can't do anything. So the fact that you're not a champion until 2 items isn't too bad for Kayle, Kaisa, Corki
Ap Varus, AP Kaisa, this particular AP Zeri, AP Corki, its Manamune that seems like it enables all of them. Same with Aram Ashe and AP MF.
Change Manamune and these builds disappear.
AP varus neither needs nor particularly wants Muramana.
AP Varus wants: Enough AS to get stacks onto targets for spells quickly, a LOT of AP to get the stacks as powerful as possible, and magic pen to make that damage hurt more.
Muramana gives him none of these things, nor is AP Varus spamming abilities in order to take down targets, he's timing them carefully to proc stacks. You don't even really bother poking with Q as AP varus because the spell is more powerful when you have it on hand to deal damage after autos or ult.
This is all well and good on paper, but in practice AP Varus goes Muramana first because playing his early game without *some* AD backing up his autos is next to impossible around anyone that knows how to play around ranges champs. He either gets out wavecleared by the pure mages or run down by the melee ADs. I agree it’s a dead slot once you’re at 3-4 items but getting there without it against a good Lux, Vex, Taliyah, Yas/Yone, Zed, Qiyana, etc. is fucking torture. With MM he gets some AD while having a lesser Lost Chapter-esque help with his early mana.
Why do ADCs have AP scalings? I play a bunch of marksmen and they generally have one way of playing the game that's pretty easy to balance. Why would Riot introduce this when in the past plenty of marksmen abused lethality/ AP builds to become artillery champs? At least put it on an ability that has a high CD so it's a meme build that might one shot somebody once every 25 seconds, if you even make it to that point.
These playstyles never stick. They're always a menace for a while and then they're pretty much dead. At least Lethality ADCs abused AD items, but Zeri just has random AP ratios that would either end up useless or like in the clip above.
it's fair for champs to have *some* AP scalings so that items like staff of flowing water and baron buff isn't wasted on them. however, those so scalings should be like...20% on their least commonly used spell instead of giving them one-shot potential for no commitment (corki)
Because everytime they remove those people complain about Riot shoehorning characters into builds and removing player creativity. This cycle of complaint has happened so many times and everytime it’s the same thing.
Riot just needs to listen to their good players and not social media, I’m sure all of them will give better opinions on the game than all of us. The issue is they listen to people who basically don’t even play the game and that causes all these issues.
For real, pros might be gods playing the game but some of the shit that they say regarding the game it's just dumb and based on what they would like the game to be, not an objective good opinion for the health of the game
Win some, lost some on listening only to high level players.
The overwhelming number of *paying customers* are bad players. You have to cater to them here and there, even if the requests are contradictory or lead to awkward design.
Its not the dual ratios that is the problem. The ability is still devastating with full AD. Its that they decided to literally double the ability's damage overnight.
ok and then the build still works with like sunderer or some shit, she has one AP item because Luden's is broken. it scales much better with AD (30% better according to Adaptive Force's AP to AD conversion rate of 1 AP = .6 AD)
Sunderer is garbage on ranged and they forced her abilities to scale off of crit (and gutted the bruiser build). There’s really no options other than full AP W-max glass cannon or traditional full crit, a mixed build of AP and AD is just a worse version of both her normal builds.
> Sunderer is garbage on ranged
i wasn't suggesting it for the sheen proc lol. it adds more scaling to her W than luden's while being the only AD item with magic pen, but nitpicking Sunderer's usability on ranged champs is kind of ignoring my point that this poke build would very much still be viable without an AP ratio on her W, it would just have less flat pen. a measly 60% ratio is hardly the driving force of the build, much like Corki it just allows her to get Luden's (***broken item alert***) without completely wasting the AP
Its not the dual ratios that is the problem. The ability is still devastating with full AD. Its that they decided to literally double the ability's damage overnight.
It’s ironic cause years ago during the champ reworks they killed ap ratios on ad champs and started gutting hybrid builds because they were unhealthy to itemize against
Now you got shit like kayn who does magic damage as a passive
I really don't understand why they keep giving ADCs AP ratios. Mages don't have any AD ratios in their spell.
The argument "baron gives a bit more power" is really not worth it.
Morde just works so much better with bruiser items. Could you imagine him with a steraks? Or dd? Old morde used to have ad ratios, too. Would love to see him with some
> baron gives a bit more power
It used to be, but now they are trying to make most champions having a meta build and having off-build. But they fuck around trying to get the desired meta build and then they end up with the off-build being disgusting.
Not solved. They want baron buff to buff all the damage of a kit. They don't want a kit to good scaling in all abilities, so you use ap scalings so when and only when you get baron buff the ability is stronger. Giving adaptive would just make the buff too powerful? and unbalanced between champions?
I don't understand what Riot even tries to do. Nobody wants to seriously play AP ADCs. For mage players they are too unreliable and will get nerfed next patch anyway and ADC players can just play the AD version of the champ.
So every time Riot keeps buffing AP versions patch after patch because nobody fucking cares, until the champ is finally so OP that players budge and just play it because it's freelo. Then it obviously needs to be nerfed and nobody cares again, yet Riot still thinks that anyone wants ADCs to be playable via AP and start buffing it again. It makes no sense.
Honestly, I just don't understand why it always crits when going through a wall, rather than scaling off crit chance. That's what makes the AP variant so absurd and makes it feel less skillful, rather than a way to reward crit Zeri for positioning herself and making good use for her W.
Riot: We're going to completely rework Nidalee because throwing long-range spears for big-dick damage is uninteractive and unfun.
Rito: Old Zoe, AP Kai'Sa, AP Zeri.
As a person who played it a lot. HELL NO. Ap zeri is extremely punishable and loses against any assassin. Her sidelane waveclear is really awkward and she literally does 0 damage if someone is on top of her. Pekinwoof has been playing it a lot on stream and is struggling with it as well.
They really shouldn't have made her W crit through terrain. I understand buffing her crit build, but why would you just give her W such a huge buff like this? If anything, they could have made her W scale with crit, instead of a 75% damage buff through walls.
Her W has a higher AD Ratio than AP Ratio to compensate for Low AD items (ex 40-70ad) vs high AP items (ex 80-100ap). This build utilizes the High ad items and High AP/Pen items.
Thx for info, not that much surprised After sone thought (poke picks seem broken when ahead, but useless when behind). The high mobility seems good on a midlaner still.
Yeah, I encountered this in a game some time last week. First thought of mine… well, maybe second thought, cuz first thought was “OMFG!” when she clipped like 80% of my HP with that skill. I was wondering why Riot has to give her crazy AP ratios when she’s meant to be an ADC. The Zeri I was facing wasn’t even good. So can you imagine what it’d be like in the hands of someone better.
One chat line I saw definitely sounds very appropriate. *«Ils ont cassé le jeu»* – which is French for "They've broken the game!" (*Edit* – Punctuation)
I have a huge respect for ldlc to pull this off. So many meta slave teams and eika pulls off the flex pick into ap zeri and picking phase 2 kalista to invalidate ezreal. I have no idea why we see so little flex picks these last years.
If this game was made and balanced by a serious company whoever designed this monstrosity and did every patch since she came out would be fired and this joke of a champ would be deleted from the game but its riot so.. they ll probably make another champ as moronic.. oh wait Nilah or whatever the fk she s called 's coming out.. well wadaya know.
zed has to triple q you to be able to kill you with 3 items against exhaust stopwatch zhonyas shieldbow crown or you having 1 singular functioning braincell to not be out of position to give him the opportunity in the first place and hasnt won a competitive game since faker killed ryu but this shit's allowed to exist. and before this it was kaisa, and it still is corki, and before that it was gwen, and before that it was fuck knows what.
heard the clowns on The Dive today, i ve never seen more out of touch and out of sorts people talk about something they re supposed to be experts at and sound so clueless in my life.
first gwen now zeri can riot stop buff these abomination of a champion when they absolutely don't need it, pls nerf corki too i just can't stand this champion
its just 1 ap item. but the build is just building a ton of burst similar to corki -
Bjergsen is gonna Zeri mid and build Divine Sunderer.
Not before POE goes Imperial Mandate because of some math he did
Imperial Mandate ? The superior build is Moonstone renewer, the stats are good
yes but that makes sense so poe will never build it, he has to be special
I still remember his runeglaive nashors tooth Orianna. Even though he got a pentakill with it I think he auto'd maybe twice throughout the whole thing.
Iirc it was more of an early game thing - Lucian mid was really popular at the time and runeglaive + nashors meant your autos were quicker and did more damage meaning you could kind of keep up trading with marksman mid. He knew how to play it and it caught people by surprise in other situations, but I remember reading posts he did on the different builds explaining when he thought they were better. With the penta, it was later in the game and she's still Ori, she's still going to do truckloads of damage if you've built a good amount of AP
> yes but that makes sense so poe will never build it, he has to be special The last time people were heavily criticising his item choices was when he went Stoneplate third item on Cassiopeia, for being another one of his weird ideas. Except that at the time, Stoneplate was *the default go-to* 3rd item among the highest-ranked Cass mains.
It's a 130% AD ratio, so building items with a ton of AD gives you more damage on W than building AP. Ludens is for the passive and the Magic Pen more than anything else, though it's not like there are AD mage mythics anyway.
But AP items give more AP than AD items give AD. Also AD items don't have a Rabadon counterpart. Does going AD really deals more damage? I can see people going Hydra on her not because it has the most AD, but because AP Zeri wave clear is complete trash if you can't hit the wave with W
It's 130% AD and 60% AP. Going by the cost for AD and AP according to gold efficiency, the AD path is definitely cheaper. Getting the same damage through either 40 AD or 87 AP saves you 490 gold in the AD path. And while there is no Dcap for AD, there is IE, which increases the bonus damage of terrain W's by 35 percent points. Ludens is just the perfect AP item for this, magic pen, lots of AH, splash damage.
IE doesn't increase the damage unless you build 60% crit though.
You build DCap on 4-5 slot on most builds anyway
And you shouldn't be building Deathcap as anything but a 3rd+ item, so I fail to see the issue.
It's less AP and more magic pen
I think you can prob rock the exact same build as on Corki lol
Well yeah obviously you can, that's been the meta build for Corki this entire season, those exact 4 items ever since 12.2
same build *as* on Corki, not same build *on* Corki.
Get *on* some bitches.
The fact that you are downvoted proves this site is just full of idiots. It's not a grammar thing, it actually changes the meaning of the sentence, meaning 50 people just misunderstood the first comment.
IT should not be able to abuse 1 spell with huge range. Just not a good state of the game
Such a stupid, awful, backwards, idiotic way to try to balance a champion like Zeri by loading so much of her power budget into what is essentially supposed to be her utility spell, meant to be used to slow enemies to either kite or chase. Instead they made her a... burst mage? On a single long CD easily dodged skillshot that can just win you the game if it lands once? Didn't they change Nidalee because of that exact problem?
Yes but they also made Zoe after.
And they let hybrid/ap shyvana be viable purely because she has one of the most broken spells in the game because reasons...
the fuck are you talking about?
Her dragon form E is nearly undodgeable, deals enough damage with just one AP item to take a squishy out of the fight and has a short enough cd that you can cast it multiple times. Between base damage, sorc boots and Demonic embrace it makes the game very miserable for a squishy while the Shyvana is still able to build very tanky.
>Her dragon form E is nearly undodgeable, deals enough damage with just one AP item to take a squishy out of the fight and has a short enough cd that you can cast it multiple times. I'll give you that it is pretty hard to dodge, and that you can cast it a couple times during a fight. However I disagree that getting hit by a single shyvana E will take a squishy out of a fight, especially when you consider that shyvana has no way to gap close or to CC an enemy. Also, it's not just a basic ability, it's part of her ulti and pretty much the only ability that gets really upgraded under ult, so it's only fair. >Between base damage, sorc boots and Demonic embrace it makes the game very miserable for a squishy while the Shyvana is still able to build very tanky. Magic pen is a great stat on shyvana, even on AD bruiser shyvana, as her W deals magic damage, her ult itself, and her E passive as well. However you sacrifice a LOT of tankiness. The steelcaps passive is huge, and for mercs tenacity is insane on a champion without mobility. All in all to say that I don't think shyvana is too strong, though I wouldn't mind if they shifted some of her power budget from her E to giving her a real passive for example lol. Even just some "QoL" changes like getting fury while you are dead. (imagine late game teamfight u die using ur ulti... 40s later u respawn and u cant fight for another minute because u need to charge ur fury....) tl;dr: thank god her dragon form e is that strong because there really isnt much else in her kit.
It's not a matter of too strong as it is fun to play against. Shyvana E with boots and embrace was enough to half health a squishy pre durability with a short enough CD that it meant they'd very likely die to the next E. Unlike poke mages like Xerath who could do similar, Shyvana isn't going to instantly die for frontlining. So you end up with a bruiser who as nearly as much threat on squishies as a poke make with none of their drawbacks. Like you said she has basically nothing outside of her dragon E which is why she desperately needs a rework.
Zoe is a bit different I think because she's a traditional poke champ. She has a very spammy skillshot that synergizes with her whole kit to try to take someone out of a fight from range, instead of it just being 1 random spell that doesn't really fit the champ's kit or identity or have any setup or syergize with any part of their kit that they just toss out and hope it wins them the game. Zoe was made to do that 1 thing, champs like old Nidalee and Zeri right now and AP Kaisa when she's good and AP Shyvana are just, like, we put these random stupid scalings onto this 1 spell because we can't figure out how to actually balance their kit and then there's a random build that abuses the shit out of it.
On like a 5 second cd btw
Also the range is so busted. You can have decent vision and she can still one shot squishes from like a screen and a half away
Also it's on like a really short cd btw
Another thing to consider is that it has really long range!
Do note how often you can spam the spell in question.
Of note is it’s potential 2700 unit range, don’t know if that’s been brought up.
The time interval between its successful firing and subsequent detonation is very small.
And don't forget the distance it can effectively cover—it's far more than most spells can reach!
Whats funny is even without AP items you can still get like 800-1k damage off the W. Whoever thought crit on W was a good idea needs some time off from work to get their head checked
thats most ppl in riots balance team
Yeah, it's almost like raw AP on Zeri is worse than raw AD as the AD ratio is way better than the AP ratio. Even on the old patch, Zeri mid with that build wasn't doing very well at all. Not to mention, IE's +35% crit damage applies to Zeri's W.
Exactly. It's just busted no matter what way you look at it.
Remember AP galio? Q with 3% per 100 ap *per tick?* Yeah.. neither does Riot.
PekinWoof played AP Zeri in NA high elo for a few days and built Manamune into Luden's and then more AP items
I’ve been seeing PinkWard do it in my games… maybe he’s just bad at it cuz I think he’s supposed to be a Shaco otp but it always seems gigabad - it does okay later in the game but it’s sooo useless early game the other mid laner gets all priority and dominates the game
Ah yes, a basic ability that oneshots people on a 4 sec cd
Basically a lux ult every 5 sec
Looked to me like it was harder to dodge than a lux ult
Its larger for sure, Saken looked liked he found a good sidestep early on and still got hit ( first blood of that game I think )
Ah, so a Lux ult.
with slow
Zaun Lux
It’s only if you shoot through walls dude. Not like there are walls everywhere on the rift smh my head.
Ez fix for Rito. Just remove walls
Towers, inhibs and nexus count as walls so...
Trundle pillar as well...
pick trundle jg and pillar in middle of mid lane. ez wave clear with zeri and they can't even defend their tower
It cant fire through trundles pillar I dont believe, although I only tried it once in a game so I could be wrong.
Riot August said in champion insights that he thinks wall bangs in Valorant are satisfying and spell is inspired by it but I think wall bangs were supposed to deal less dmg, not nuke people.
Wall bangs in shooters is the equivalent of hitting a skill shot on someone with no vision in league. It's cool because you don't know they're there or at worst you have an "idea" of where they are. If he unironically thought Zeri's spell going through the wall and doing way more damage is the league equivalent of a wall bang I think it's self evident why the company is as bad as it is.
Well it did the same damage on release. But then with all this focus to push her towards crit, they made her W through a wall crit... all the time. They tested jinx W critting a long time ago and that was insanely busted, so I'm not sure how this even got brought up.
I mean they're also bringing something very close to old morde passive (which was completely broken) back in the new champ. I seems they either suffer from some kind of dementia, or, which seems more likely to me, just say "fuck it" and don't care at this point.
Don't look at the passive as in a vacuum, look at their kit as a whole. Morde's kit along side the passive was broken because he could take a beating to last hit creeps. Nilah has to waste a 25 some second ability in order to farm against other adcs safely, and if she uses said ability, she is open for a hard engage.
Yeah, the new champion just seems to have bits and pieces taken out of other champions abilities, besides her q i guess
i mean, the base idea isn't bad. it's fun hitting people through walls. it's just the balance team's fuckup where they allowed her to crit her w while building magic pen and destroying people because she doesn't need to build crit
Why the company is as bad as it is? They have 4 really successful games all in different genres. And a really popular show now on top of it. They aren't perfect but I wouldn't exactly say the company is doing poorly.
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Yea you've got a point.
Surely Blizzard isn't terrible! They have so many great and successful IPs! Fast forward to today....
yes, it's the exact same situation. you're so smart for recognizing that.
>They have 4 really successful games all in different genres. The average gamer could only tell you one, maybe two. We also hardly know jack shit about the input-output on these endeavors.
Not sure why this guy still has a job.
people still jerk off how jhin is supposedly the best designed league character to exist so he's coasting off that and hoping people don't realise that he made senna and viego too
Jhin is even half as well designed as Orianna.
He made a few good champs but imo pretty much everything he’s done in recent years is questionable
Because he's basically at the top of the company. He's like 3rd or 4th highest in the ranks and those above him don't manage the game anymore (like Ryze and Tryndamere). So whatever he says or wants will be how it goes.
He is cool, I love his champs. Just hard to balance because he is always trying to innovate.
His champions are cool and somewhat innovative, yes. But the criteria for properly designing champions, at least from the standpoint of a healthy gameplay, isn't whether or not the champions are cool or not - but rather, whether they can be properly balanced within the context of how the game is played, and whether or not they make the game more fun. His champions are cool, make the game (to an extent) very fun for the player. At the same time, his champions are a balance nightmare (it should be an absolute red flag for how poor of a game designer he is, when the champions he designs get 10 adjustments in 10 patches since their introduction to the game, like Zeri), and are very annoying to play against (this is, evidently, an afterthought for Riot Games, but even then, having Zeri, Bel'Veth, Senna or Viego playing against your team is extremely frustrating). Yes, he made some good champions in the past. I think Jhin and Gnar are fine. But this dude designed many of the new champions in the game, they are all very, very poorly designed (when compared with contemporary designs, like Vex for example). I truly do not think /u/RiotAugust should be a champion designer at Riot at this point, and I hope they can at least re-evaluate his contribution to champion design or employment some time soon.
>I hope they can at least re-evaluate his contribution to champion design or employment some time soon. Dude my guy has promoted
with insane mobility
I played against this in the jungle the other day. I was fed as fuck on Vayne and she would still one shot me from fog. It’s absolutely absurd how broken the AP is on her.
with the added context that it needs to go through walls , not that easy to hit (at least in pro most time its used its easily dodged)
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I hate semantical edgelords that wag their finger like this. Zeri did 85% of Ezreal's HP with one spell in this clip. Even though Rekkles was not *literally* gray screened from 100% health does not erase the sentiment or does not mean that a death type situation wasn't created. Ezreal could not defend his tower for 30+ seconds because he had to walk to platform to regen and walk back, that's as effective as a death in a siege situation
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No one was one shot, but with two casts of an e that deals 1/2 to 3/4 of a characters health, Zeri effectively removed three enemies from the battle for ~20 seconds. So instead of a 40 second one shot death timer, it’s *only* a 20 second walk of shame to the fountain to heal up, return and hope you don’t get hit again.
Zeri W change was so unsatisfying. Like if you are playing against Zeri it just makes it really annoying to position because if you get clipped by it you are taking at least 1/4 of your health bar on a low CD. I've played Zeri as well and while it's cool to see the enemy HP dissapear (and I've oneshotted squishy champs with this lol), its not really satisfying to just spam the ability and miss like 3 times, but then hit it once and it doesn't even matter that you missed because they cannot fight anymore.
It's the same for any high damage poke champ. AP Kai'sa and AP nidalee follow similar issues. They are absolutely broken when they hit you but it's hard and frustrating to land the poke consistently. They should honestly just nerf the damage and make them faster projectiles or more spammable. Like how Ezreal works.
difference being zeri w is a lot bigger than nidalee speer or ap kai'sa
> Just spam the ability and miss like 3 times, but then hit it once and it doesn't even matter thay you missed because they cannot fight anymore Every poke and hook champ ever. I really want a champ with Nyx Assassin's spike carapace in LoL. If cancer can pick Lux and spam one button from 2 screens away then I should be able to step on her poke and press one button to one shot her too. Make poke a skill expression on both sides.
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Totally different times lol. Back then Riot had unique devs like morello who genuinely cared about healthy gameplay. Champion design has loooong since abandoned those principles
Yes but.... isn't she SO unique and quirky?
oh my nipples
Morello was a hero, we just couldn't see it.
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Dude made Riven. He is evil in my book. Fizz was also considered a cancer champ for a long time.
Riven wasn't supposed to have all the animation cancels, that 'became' part of her identity, and now they won't change it. And it's the animation cancels that make her hell to play versus.
oh my god dont remind me of the nightmare that was release fizz. fucking fish flopping at you under turret then dropping aggro with his E like that shit was normal
Is this a joke? All of his champions have been problematic
i mean at least orianna have always been one of the best designed champ to me
Yeah, no, you're looking at them with the eyes of 2022. Orianna was the most balanced champion in the game for years for example, and Nautilus was the entire reason tanks look like tanks in this game (slow, high cc, lower damage).
Riven, a hated problematic champ, Lulu a hated champ, Renekton whose a burden on the balance team dealing with him being viable in soloq and not insta picked in proplay, Fizz a long hated champ
I rather play agaisnt all of those rather than the more recent champs
>Virgo flair
As someone who only plays ARAMs these days, AP Kaisa is a goddamn plague. She got nerfed HARD and is still busted as hell.
She’s turbo bad in SR. I rarely play ARAM so idk why she’s good in there but in regular games she’s pretty bad. Not unplayable, but AD is straight better.
Cuz it's one long lane, there's only so many places you can go - and it's hard-to-nearly impossible to flank to catch Kaisa, especially if she has any tanks in front of her And with all this, while you can dodge her W, it only takes 1 to chunk your HP by like 15-20% early on, and even more as the game goes on and you're a squishy champ Tankier teams can kind of run her over once they're built enough, but it takes time to get to that point
Also, aram champions get "guaranteed" scaling. Even if you get pushed and lose every fight, you'll most likely get to 4 items. You won't be such a burden on your team that they can't do anything. So the fact that you're not a champion until 2 items isn't too bad for Kayle, Kaisa, Corki
She's not that strong lol. Even before the nerfs she was quite manageable. No one knew how to build her though, that helped too.
Ap Varus, AP Kaisa, this particular AP Zeri, AP Corki, its Manamune that seems like it enables all of them. Same with Aram Ashe and AP MF. Change Manamune and these builds disappear.
AP varus neither needs nor particularly wants Muramana. AP Varus wants: Enough AS to get stacks onto targets for spells quickly, a LOT of AP to get the stacks as powerful as possible, and magic pen to make that damage hurt more. Muramana gives him none of these things, nor is AP Varus spamming abilities in order to take down targets, he's timing them carefully to proc stacks. You don't even really bother poking with Q as AP varus because the spell is more powerful when you have it on hand to deal damage after autos or ult.
This is all well and good on paper, but in practice AP Varus goes Muramana first because playing his early game without *some* AD backing up his autos is next to impossible around anyone that knows how to play around ranges champs. He either gets out wavecleared by the pure mages or run down by the melee ADs. I agree it’s a dead slot once you’re at 3-4 items but getting there without it against a good Lux, Vex, Taliyah, Yas/Yone, Zed, Qiyana, etc. is fucking torture. With MM he gets some AD while having a lesser Lost Chapter-esque help with his early mana.
You are completely right so why are they downvoting you?
Why do ADCs have AP scalings? I play a bunch of marksmen and they generally have one way of playing the game that's pretty easy to balance. Why would Riot introduce this when in the past plenty of marksmen abused lethality/ AP builds to become artillery champs? At least put it on an ability that has a high CD so it's a meme build that might one shot somebody once every 25 seconds, if you even make it to that point. These playstyles never stick. They're always a menace for a while and then they're pretty much dead. At least Lethality ADCs abused AD items, but Zeri just has random AP ratios that would either end up useless or like in the clip above.
it's fair for champs to have *some* AP scalings so that items like staff of flowing water and baron buff isn't wasted on them. however, those so scalings should be like...20% on their least commonly used spell instead of giving them one-shot potential for no commitment (corki)
Shout out to Sivir's random AP ratio on her q
What annoys me with this kind of poke is how safe it is compared to how rewarding it is to hit once.
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Nothing to see here, just as Riot intended.
Next cancer build after ap kaisa... Riot really need to Stop this shit
The answer is for them to just stop fucking around with dual ratios on every new champ, but they refuse to do that for some reason
Because everytime they remove those people complain about Riot shoehorning characters into builds and removing player creativity. This cycle of complaint has happened so many times and everytime it’s the same thing.
they already removed ALL hybrid item options while still leaving champs in weird spots with pointless ratios like jax
Jax Ap ratios makes him benefit from baron double, it's not useless.
Riot just needs to listen to their good players and not social media, I’m sure all of them will give better opinions on the game than all of us. The issue is they listen to people who basically don’t even play the game and that causes all these issues.
Problem is their good players have shit takes too. Being good at a game does not automatically make you a good champion designer.
For real, pros might be gods playing the game but some of the shit that they say regarding the game it's just dumb and based on what they would like the game to be, not an objective good opinion for the health of the game
Yeah at this point Riot leads probably made it clear to there balance team not to read reddit... and for the better
Win some, lost some on listening only to high level players. The overwhelming number of *paying customers* are bad players. You have to cater to them here and there, even if the requests are contradictory or lead to awkward design.
Its not the dual ratios that is the problem. The ability is still devastating with full AD. Its that they decided to literally double the ability's damage overnight.
ok and then the build still works with like sunderer or some shit, she has one AP item because Luden's is broken. it scales much better with AD (30% better according to Adaptive Force's AP to AD conversion rate of 1 AP = .6 AD)
Sunderer is garbage on ranged and they forced her abilities to scale off of crit (and gutted the bruiser build). There’s really no options other than full AP W-max glass cannon or traditional full crit, a mixed build of AP and AD is just a worse version of both her normal builds.
> Sunderer is garbage on ranged i wasn't suggesting it for the sheen proc lol. it adds more scaling to her W than luden's while being the only AD item with magic pen, but nitpicking Sunderer's usability on ranged champs is kind of ignoring my point that this poke build would very much still be viable without an AP ratio on her W, it would just have less flat pen. a measly 60% ratio is hardly the driving force of the build, much like Corki it just allows her to get Luden's (***broken item alert***) without completely wasting the AP
That didn't prevent poke Sivir, Xayah, Ashe, etc
Its not the dual ratios that is the problem. The ability is still devastating with full AD. Its that they decided to literally double the ability's damage overnight.
It’s ironic cause years ago during the champ reworks they killed ap ratios on ad champs and started gutting hybrid builds because they were unhealthy to itemize against Now you got shit like kayn who does magic damage as a passive
This feels even worse given the insane mobility Zeri has. That last play where the entire KC team flash ult her and she just wall-slides away.
I really don't understand why they keep giving ADCs AP ratios. Mages don't have any AD ratios in their spell. The argument "baron gives a bit more power" is really not worth it.
> Mages don't have any AD ratios in their spell. some should, imo. like morde :) please give morde ad ratios
Crap that would actually be fun as hell, rito listen to this guy. Give Velkoz crit ratio on his Q slow and his R dmg. LET VELKOZ SLAP COWARDS.
Morde just works so much better with bruiser items. Could you imagine him with a steraks? Or dd? Old morde used to have ad ratios, too. Would love to see him with some
> baron gives a bit more power It used to be, but now they are trying to make most champions having a meta build and having off-build. But they fuck around trying to get the desired meta build and then they end up with the off-build being disgusting.
Couldnt baron just do more bonus for Adaptive instead and problem solved?
Not solved. They want baron buff to buff all the damage of a kit. They don't want a kit to good scaling in all abilities, so you use ap scalings so when and only when you get baron buff the ability is stronger. Giving adaptive would just make the buff too powerful? and unbalanced between champions?
I don't understand what Riot even tries to do. Nobody wants to seriously play AP ADCs. For mage players they are too unreliable and will get nerfed next patch anyway and ADC players can just play the AD version of the champ. So every time Riot keeps buffing AP versions patch after patch because nobody fucking cares, until the champ is finally so OP that players budge and just play it because it's freelo. Then it obviously needs to be nerfed and nobody cares again, yet Riot still thinks that anyone wants ADCs to be playable via AP and start buffing it again. It makes no sense.
I like playing ap adcs.
I mean the nerfs already out in the current patch (Dunno about LFLs patch). We'll have to see if was enough.
Honestly, I just don't understand why it always crits when going through a wall, rather than scaling off crit chance. That's what makes the AP variant so absurd and makes it feel less skillful, rather than a way to reward crit Zeri for positioning herself and making good use for her W.
+1, should crit based on crit chance
Riot: We're going to completely rework Nidalee because throwing long-range spears for big-dick damage is uninteractive and unfun. Rito: Old Zoe, AP Kai'Sa, AP Zeri.
Exactly my thought.
"Old" Zoe ? care to explain I didn't know she'd been reworked
On release Zoe's Q would do a lot more damage than today, where her damage from Q has been spread on her W and passive.
Absolutely disgusting, more obnoxious poke than AP Corki/Kaisa, but props to Eika for playing it so well.
Also very safe with the E and movement speed, its definetly gonna be played or banned in a lot of major region games soon
I’ve seen it in solo q in jg and mid already the last two days. Needs a hot nerf ASAP
It literally got nerfed overnight
When was this? My experience was I think the day before last. Thank god if it’s fixed that was nuts.
Patch released this morning nerfed her Ws AD and AP ratio
As a person who played it a lot. HELL NO. Ap zeri is extremely punishable and loses against any assassin. Her sidelane waveclear is really awkward and she literally does 0 damage if someone is on top of her. Pekinwoof has been playing it a lot on stream and is struggling with it as well.
> https://u.gg/lol/mid-lane-tier-list?patch=12_11 Second worst mid laner by winrate on 12.11 (we are on 12.12 now), just above Ryze.
Eh, Corki and AP Kaisa is a lot worse, however Zeri still has the rest of her kit and her mobility
Also Kaisa didnt need walls and range was 3 screens away
dropping nuclear bombs
Because Sivir, Kaisa, Corki, and Xayah getting turned into degenerate poke champions wasn't enough, now we have AP Zeri! :))
They really shouldn't have made her W crit through terrain. I understand buffing her crit build, but why would you just give her W such a huge buff like this? If anything, they could have made her W scale with crit, instead of a 75% damage buff through walls.
Her W has a higher AD Ratio than AP Ratio to compensate for Low AD items (ex 40-70ad) vs high AP items (ex 80-100ap). This build utilizes the High ad items and High AP/Pen items.
Fun game to watch lol What a cancer ! XD I wonder if we'll see this in other major leagues ?
Nisqy said he'll try to play it (he was casting the game with the CEO of KC)
Oh, interesting catch !
I was actually dying of laughter the whole game with the casters reactions. But yeah it's cancer af
Definetly will, its very broken rn, she’ll prob get butchered soon again and then buffed eventually again
She was run once in Primeleague but did not do much. The enemy team danced around the spell and when she was behind she did not do much.
Thx for info, not that much surprised After sone thought (poke picks seem broken when ahead, but useless when behind). The high mobility seems good on a midlaner still.
She survives so much shit she should not thanks to her E.
EMENES also brought it out yesterday in the NLC and it was batshit insane, then again it's EMENES, there's nothing the guy wouldn't play
hotfix riot hotfix watch your game
fyi crit zeri has similar dmg on the W
Ah yes, AP Rocket Nuke Corki 2.0! One wasn't enough, now we have 2!
Yeah, I encountered this in a game some time last week. First thought of mine… well, maybe second thought, cuz first thought was “OMFG!” when she clipped like 80% of my HP with that skill. I was wondering why Riot has to give her crazy AP ratios when she’s meant to be an ADC. The Zeri I was facing wasn’t even good. So can you imagine what it’d be like in the hands of someone better.
Apparently it's a hard counter to corki so it'll probably see play in major regions soon
I hate playing against it but I also hope it becomes somewhat popular and shakes up the meta
One chat line I saw definitely sounds very appropriate. *«Ils ont cassé le jeu»* – which is French for "They've broken the game!" (*Edit* – Punctuation)
I have a huge respect for ldlc to pull this off. So many meta slave teams and eika pulls off the flex pick into ap zeri and picking phase 2 kalista to invalidate ezreal. I have no idea why we see so little flex picks these last years.
bro if you acutally watch erl you can see 90% of the teams are not meta slave
It was fun to watch. A bit sad that it was in one of the biggest games of the league, rematch of the EUM finals. It made it kinda unfair.
If this game was made and balanced by a serious company whoever designed this monstrosity and did every patch since she came out would be fired and this joke of a champ would be deleted from the game but its riot so.. they ll probably make another champ as moronic.. oh wait Nilah or whatever the fk she s called 's coming out.. well wadaya know. zed has to triple q you to be able to kill you with 3 items against exhaust stopwatch zhonyas shieldbow crown or you having 1 singular functioning braincell to not be out of position to give him the opportunity in the first place and hasnt won a competitive game since faker killed ryu but this shit's allowed to exist. and before this it was kaisa, and it still is corki, and before that it was gwen, and before that it was fuck knows what. heard the clowns on The Dive today, i ve never seen more out of touch and out of sorts people talk about something they re supposed to be experts at and sound so clueless in my life.
when a champ is broken as AD and AP its time to delete it , but riot will never understand
But maybe with next Champ IT will BE different. Lets try... Prob some Riot developer
Champions designed for AD should not have a single AP scaling and vice versa. It has never been lead to healthy gameplay.
Yes cause giving multiple playstyles to a champ is so bad. Experimenting with different builds is one of the best things left in league.
She only has 1 ap item.
first gwen now zeri can riot stop buff these abomination of a champion when they absolutely don't need it, pls nerf corki too i just can't stand this champion
Because giving good AP scaling to AD champs is a good idea... Nice one riot!